Author Topic: American Political Thread  (Read 185221 times)

musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #100 on: December 27, 2011, 01:41:24 AM »
I thought that in the video RGS linked up, Ron Paul sounded just a little panicky, and rambling, but then again he kinda ... always sounds like that.  :P
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Bacon

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2011, 01:42:28 AM »
I'm just saying, his word doesn't prove that he didn't know about them or didn't have anything to do with them. We just don't know one way or the other. That kind of opening makes me choose to play it safe and choose not to have anything to do with him. That's all. There's a big question there with the only factual evidence we have pointing to the possibility that he may be racist.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:46:36 AM by Bacon »
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2011, 01:44:14 AM »
You could look at his voting record and see what his track history has been on civil rights issues for minorities ... maybe?

I have no idea what that record looks like, mind you. I'm just saying, if one actually cares about finding out if he's being sincere or not, there are other avenues available besides waiting for a media story to break and tell you their opinion.

Shit, if we dismissed every politician right away the moment a negative story about them broke we'd have none left.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:48:00 AM by musashi »
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RogueGunslinger

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2011, 01:48:53 AM »
Actually I'm having a hard time deciding what the real issue is here. That Ron Paul could possibly be a racist? Or that Ron Paul is stupid enough to let semi-racists remarks go out in his newsletters twenty years ago.

Quote
Dondero recently published an account including his thoughts on Ron Paul and the racist newsletters. He wrote that while many of the Paul’s views are old-fashioned or eccentric, Paul is neither a racist nor an anti-Semite.

“I worked for the man for 12 years, pretty consistently,” Dondero writes. “I never heard a racist word expressed towards Blacks or Jews come out of his mouth. Not once. And understand, I was his close personal assistant.”

However, Dondero also says that Paul “is far from being the hippest guy around” and is “completely clueless when it comes to Hispanic and Black culture, particularly Mexican-American culture.”

Dondero, who Paul has described as “a disgruntled former employee who was fired,” also wrote that Paul is “absolutely” not an anti-Semite, but “most certainly Anti-Israel, and Anti-Israeli in general.”

“He wishes the Israeli state did not exist at all,” Dondero says. “He expressed this to me numerous times in our private conversations. His view is that Israel is more trouble than it is worth, specifically to the America taxpayer. He sides with the Palestinians, and supports their calls for the abolishment of the Jewish state, and the return of Israel, all of it, to the Arabs.”

At the same time, Dondero says Paul has no problem with American Jews, and even worked to befriend the very small Jewish community in his own district.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/26/former-opponents-discuss-ron-pauls-racist-newsletters/#ixzz1hiOKlhgz


I think can probably all agree that he's not racist. However it is an incredibly stupid thing to put your name all over daily and weekly newsletters that you don't have someone with a brain checking.

Bacon

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2011, 01:52:57 AM »
You could look at his voting record and see what his track history has been on civil rights issues for minorities ... maybe?

I have no idea what that record looks like, mind you. I'm just saying, if one actually cares about finding out if he's being sincere or not, there are other avenues available besides waiting for a media story to break and tell you their opinion.

Shit, if we dismissed every politician right away the moment a negative story about them broke we'd have none left.

Oh, I dismissed him for other things I disagree with before that anyway. There is noone on the conservative side running currently that I would vote for. Every one of them has different issues that I cannot agree with and that I believe would lead this country more in the wrong direction. I'm not saying I'm completely happy with our current president, but I agree with his views more than those running against him this election.
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2011, 01:54:42 AM »
I found by clicking on some links off of your video RGS. I could never be a politician. I could not be as polite as he was during that interview.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:56:59 AM by musashi »
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RogueGunslinger

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2011, 02:09:22 AM »
I couldn't even listen to that radio host. Got about a minute in before rage-closing the video. I hate people who think they're the smartest little fuckers in the world.

musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2011, 02:32:19 AM »
That's why I was asking brytta what his issues were specifically, rather than make assumptions based on whatever the other folks on his side of the fence blog and post about.  :-\
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brytta.leofa

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #108 on: December 27, 2011, 12:34:26 PM »
I could do digging for "why the right wing hates Ron Paul" information but there is honestly so much batshit crazy stuff on the fringes of the conservative right that I wouldn't want to mistakingly attribute some of that to you, brytta.

;D

Here are a couple things:
- A recent statement, a bit rambling, from Eric Dondero, a former aide.  (You'll facepalm, as I did, at his opinions on what is and isn't homophobia--not that there's anything wrong with that--but never mind.)  Also summarized by the Atlantic here.
- The one I linked last Friday is also worthwhile (by NR's Rich Lowry):
Quote
He tends to bring any conversation back to the malignancy of U.S. foreign policy. In the final debate in Iowa, he rambled on about how worries about the Iranian nuclear program are “war propaganda,” but if the Iranians get the bomb that they’re not developing, that’s entirely understandable, since we’re “promoting their desire to have it.” Jeane Kirkpatrick famously condemned the “Blame America First” Democrats; would that she had lived long enough to condemn the “Blame America First” libertarians.

In the debate, Paul went on to warn against a push “to declare war on 1.2 billion Muslims,” as if a country that has resorted to force of arms to save Muslims from starvation (Somalia), from ethnic cleansing (Bosnia, Kosovo), and from brutal dictators (Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya) is bristling with an undifferentiated hostility toward all Muslims. This isn’t an expression of an anti-interventionism so much as a smear. It goes beyond opposition to American foreign policy to a poisonous view of America itself.

Paul never knows when to stop. He lets his suspicion of centralized power slip into paranoia worthy of a second-rate Hollywood thriller about government malevolence. In January 2010, he declared: “There’s been a coup, have you heard? It’s the CIA coup. The CIA runs everything, they run the military.” On his latest appearance on the radio show of the conspiracy-mongering host Alex Jones, he opined that the alleged Iranian plot to kill the Saudi ambassador on U.S. soil was “another propaganda stunt.” He exclaimed that the latest defense bill authorizing the indefinite detention of enemy combatants will “literally legalize martial law” (yes, “literally”).

I'd sum up my personal beef this way:  Ron Paul wants to radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy in ways whose potential consequences range from "poorly understood" to "World War III" and "The Greater Depression."  Though many of his views on personal freedom and the scope of government are admirable, they are tainted and misdirected by his personal obsessions: a jaundiced, not neutral, view of American interventionism; and an affinity for off-beat economic theories.
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #109 on: December 27, 2011, 06:20:50 PM »
Thanks brytta!
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SwanSwanHummingbird

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2011, 08:11:31 PM »
I'd sum up my personal beef this way:  Ron Paul wants to radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy in ways whose potential consequences range from "poorly understood" to "World War III" and "The Greater Depression."  Though many of his views on personal freedom and the scope of government are admirable, they are tainted and misdirected by his personal obsessions: a jaundiced, not neutral, view of American interventionism; and an affinity for off-beat economic theories.

"radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy"

You mean by actually following the Constitution?

What specifically about the Constitution do you find so frightening?

Synthesis

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2011, 08:43:27 PM »
I'd sum up my personal beef this way:  Ron Paul wants to radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy in ways whose potential consequences range from "poorly understood" to "World War III" and "The Greater Depression."  Though many of his views on personal freedom and the scope of government are admirable, they are tainted and misdirected by his personal obsessions: a jaundiced, not neutral, view of American interventionism; and an affinity for off-beat economic theories.

"radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy"

You mean by actually following the Constitution?

What specifically about the Constitution do you find so frightening?

I'm pretty sure the Constitution doesn't say anything about commodity monetarism or non-interventionism, but I'll admit it's been a while since I read the whole text.
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jcarter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2011, 09:37:10 PM »
I'd sum up my personal beef this way:  Ron Paul wants to radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy in ways whose potential consequences range from "poorly understood" to "World War III" and "The Greater Depression."  Though many of his views on personal freedom and the scope of government are admirable, they are tainted and misdirected by his personal obsessions: a jaundiced, not neutral, view of American interventionism; and an affinity for off-beat economic theories.

"radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy"

You mean by actually following the Constitution?

What specifically about the Constitution do you find so frightening?

I'm pretty sure the Constitution doesn't say anything about commodity monetarism or non-interventionism, but I'll admit it's been a while since I read the whole text.

I'm pretty sure nobody is trying to say that the Constitution literally applies to commodity monetarism or non-interventionism, try reading the post again.

boog

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2011, 09:53:14 PM »
Isn't that what Constitutionalism is about? Adhering strictly to the things outlined in the Constitution and the people that follow that ideology are usually those that do not want Amendments added or otherwise?

 ???
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Synthesis

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2011, 10:10:12 PM »
Isn't that what Constitutionalism is about? Adhering strictly to the things outlined in the Constitution and the people that follow that ideology are usually those that do not want Amendments added or otherwise?

 ???

The Constitution says that Congress is gonna have the power to coin money and regulate its value, and that the states can't print their own money.  It doesn't say how Congress should go about doing that.

Thus, you can't just say "Durrrr, I'm a strict Constitutionalist" when it comes to monetary policy, unless you're arguing that the states can't print their own money.

The Constitution also says that the President and the Congress are gonna work together in various ways to approve treaties and wars and shit, but it doesn't say when or with who or under what circumstances it should do so.  Again, you can't argue "strict Constitutionalist!" as a foreign policy, because the Constitution has fuck-all to say about (most) specific policy matters in those areas.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 10:14:47 PM by Synthesis »
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boog

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2011, 10:16:56 PM »
And they're still trying to argue that that's what they are and uh ... that the Constitution should be strictly adhered to?

Silly wabbits!
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jstorrie

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #116 on: December 29, 2011, 12:52:28 AM »
Synthesis' point is valid and you guys are just being obtuse.

jcarter

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #117 on: December 29, 2011, 01:08:14 AM »
yeah that point towards an imaginary argument that nobody made was spot on.

musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2011, 04:48:03 AM »
Maybe SSH should explain what he means by "following the Constitution" in regards to fiscal and foreign policy then so we're clear on what he was trying to say.
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Nao

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #119 on: December 29, 2011, 09:25:51 AM »
Quote
I'd sum up my personal beef this way:  Ron Paul wants to radically change America's fiscal and foreign policy in ways whose potential consequences range from "poorly understood" to "World War III" and "The Greater Depression."  Though many of his views on personal freedom and the scope of government are admirable, they are tainted and misdirected by his personal obsessions: a jaundiced, not neutral, view of American interventionism; and an affinity for off-beat economic theories.
I'm worried about everyone but Ron Paul starting WWIII. IThe economy - is seriously fucked already. I'm not sure what would be worse, the proposed solutions from the other Republican candidates (seems to be various versions of 'give a tax break or a tax cut and hope that creates jobs') or Ron Paul. Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't vote for Ron Paul if I lived in the US, but - I'm more worried about someone being too trigger-happy with the big red button than economic collapse.
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boog

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Bacon

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #121 on: December 29, 2011, 10:52:39 AM »
Barack Obama 73.4%, Ron Paul 40.1%, and I'm not even going to say the third because it was a low percentage and I can't stand the person. I figured with the first two that's what it would be too. If I were to vote for anyone running on the Repub side it would be Ron Paul but we just don't agree about enough things for me to go there.

I do think some of the answers are a little biased to the conservative side. I had to choose none of the above on a few because it seemed they were all variations on the same answer which included a main premise that is unacceptable to me.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 10:57:29 AM by Bacon »
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brytta.leofa

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #122 on: December 29, 2011, 11:06:20 AM »
I'm worried about everyone but Ron Paul starting WWIII.

I'm worried about everyone but any U.S. president starting WWIII.  The thing that Docker Paul doesn't credit is that if someone else starts a world war, the United States will be in it.  You'd better not Bring the Troops Home and Mind Our Own Business unless you're governing a nation willing to see Russian hegemony over Europe, China over Asia, and a Mideast ruled by dictators adequately pliable to those powers.  If you do this and your nation changes its mind, you're liable to be storming Normandy in a couple decades.
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musashi

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #123 on: December 29, 2011, 02:54:38 PM »
I'm worried about everyone but any U.S. president starting WWIII.  The thing that Docker Paul doesn't credit is that if someone else starts a world war, the United States will be in it.  You'd better not Bring the Troops Home and Mind Our Own Business unless you're governing a nation willing to see Russian hegemony over Europe, China over Asia, and a Mideast ruled by dictators adequately pliable to those powers.  If you do this and your nation changes its mind, you're liable to be storming Normandy in a couple decades.

This ... kind of reminds me of about how America was a vulnerable, naked super power and that's why we need to crank up the military spending even more. I think this line of thinking severely underestimates the pacifying power of global trade.

In short ... the religious worry (or perhaps fantasize) about the end of the world too much  :-*

Also I couldn't make it through that candidate match up game. I disagreed with the premise of the questions way too much to pick anything but none of the above for the first half of them before I closed the window.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 03:30:09 PM by musashi »
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brytta.leofa

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Re: American Political Thread
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2011, 11:25:35 AM »
We spend so much on defense in fear that the parts of the world we trust won't Man Up and that the parts of the world we don't will.

<rereads sentence>
 ???
<hits post button>
The sword is sharp, the spear is long,
The arrow swift, the Gate is strong.
The heart is bold that looks on gold;
The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.