Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

Started by Adhira, September 12, 2011, 02:37:12 PM

Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 05:06:14 PM
Sorry, we won't be introducing this for existing characters. 

I understand why you don't want to give an ETA on when these changes will go live, but can you give us an idea of what time frame we're looking at?  Weeks?  Months?  I'm thinking of making a new character, but I don't want to blow my idea on it if this is right around the corner.

Will there be a grace period for short-lived characters in which you can immediately recover your karma, or do you still have to wait for your karma to regenerate even if your character was killed with 0 hours played?

Three thumbs up.  I am all for things that allow players to make their characters more robust, it looks like it has been well-thought-out, and I always approve of more 'objective' criteria being added to things.  But maybe that's just the lawyer in me.

Will it be clearly stated (in an account notes request) which karma points are for which categories?  As in FantasyWriter's example.
Former player as of 2/27/23, sending love.

Seems like that would make sense.

Leadership:
-
Magick:
Displayed proper control and fleshed out his character with the use of magick on Soandso -- Nyr 5/5/12 + 1

Longevity:
Played for three years, and despite conversations with staff, did not store -- Adhira 5/5/12 +2

and so on...
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

I like this a lot, actually--especially with the clarified categories for karma.  I didn't realize until recently that regular reports were something the staff wanted, rather than just overly talkative players.  That in mind, I'm definitely going to start sending in regular reports of my character's doings.
Proud Owner of her Very Own Delirium.

Seems like giving which points for which category is exactly the kind of thing Adhira was saying they wouldn't do, with giving out more information about how it all works.

I like the change.  My only question is...As an example, in the past, a person might get all their mage options removed for repeatedly spamcasting, and karma adjusted.  Or a person might get dwarf removed for playing them really, really badly.  In the rating system now, would it be possible to get a ban on karma in one area, lets say magickers, while still gaining karma in other areas?  Or is it possible to get negative karma in one area?  So, even if the person is a good RP'r and have mad leadership skillz, they have -2 karma in how they send in reports?
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."

September 12, 2011, 06:03:37 PM #80 Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 06:07:07 PM by musashi
What a fantastic change. Awesome guys. Just awesome.

Bear with me because I have to leave for work soon so I didn't have time to read the 79 replies before mine to check and see if this was already answered but ... when we ask for a copy of our account notes will we be able to see which categories we have already "hit" and receives karma from so that we know which ones we should be focusing on for future development?

For example, if I could see that I already had 1 point of karma for longevity, 2 points for proper use of magick in the game world, and 1 point from ability to roleplay ... then I could go: Ah ha! Lay off the mages for awhile an go play a leadership role!
Quote from: Marauder Moe
Oh my god he's still rocking the sandwich.

You won't get details on exact criteria karma is awarded for, but you will get an indication of which areas.

ie Awarded karma point for longevity.
Awarded karma for communication.

"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Thanks!  :D
Quote from: Marauder Moe
Oh my god he's still rocking the sandwich.

Just to note while we have criteria this isn't play by numbers, we're looking for consistency, trust and all the rest.  Playing a magicker and hoping to get the karma points from that isn't a great strategy, I'd recommend on making karma the focus of your gameplay.

As for ETA I really cannot give this at this point in time. We need to have the code thoroughly tested and I cannot say whether that will occur in the next 2 weeks or the next 2 months.  

"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

sounds cool, and it may even help with those guild sniffers!
Sweet chaos let it unfold upon the land.
Guided forever by my adoring loving hand.
It is I the nightmare that sleeps but shall wake.

Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 06:09:38 PM
...I'd recommend on making karma the focus of your gameplay.

Do you mean you'd recommend against making karma the focus of your gameplay?
Proud Owner of her Very Own Delirium.

To keep the thread on topic:

Hurray.  I feel these changes show the staff is listening to what we players have to say.  THANK YOU.

Woops, yes exactly what I mean do NOT make karma the focus of your gameplay.

Twilight - staff reserve the right to remove any guild etc for abuse as per usual.  There are always extreme circumstances which may require something outside the norm to address them.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

I am very excited about the new options that will be available.  Despite some player's misgivings (which have already produced some changes...so well done, there!), from what we have seen so far this looks to be a balanced approach to a new karma system--and one that allows for more casual players to enjoy the game.  With a (slowly) aging and generally more responsible player base, I see definite advantages to the broader use of karma.  In addition, this allows for more players who have been here for the long haul to take advantage of their karma without playing magickers.

This is also a brave move toward a more transparent karma system, which I applaud!

I am looking forward to the new system.

Thank you, Staffers

Morrolan


"I have seen him show most of the attributes one expects of a noble: courtesy, kindness, and honor.  I would also say he is one of the most bloodthirsty bastards I have ever met."

September 12, 2011, 06:22:07 PM #89 Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 06:27:13 PM by Lizzie
I think I like this idea, but I'm confused about it so I'm not sure. Can Adhira (or another staffer) break this down for me so I can understand it better please?

Okay - so let's say at the moment, currently, I have 2 karma; which would grant me desert elf, and rukkian/vivaduan, in addition to the usual human, dwarf, breed, city elf, burglar warrior, ranger, etc. etc. and all the existing current subguilds.

wow I figured out an easier way to ask this - here it is, edited:

So now the new change kicks in, and I have my 2 karma, which I've had for the past 3 years.
And I decide hey! I'm allowed to spend points now! So I ask for a skill bump on my next character.

That brings me down to only 1 karma, so I -lose- a point of what I already had, and have had, for the past 3 years, and can't use what I've had for 3 years, for another 5 months or whatever amount was posted (I don't remember what the time frame was)?

And then, if I am granted another karma point in the next few weeks - and THEN the 5 months rolls around, does that mean I now have three points total? Or will the system not realize that the 2nd point I have, after 5 months, includes 1 new point that I was granted a few weeks after I gave one point (out of the initial two)...

ugh even more confused now than before.

Someone slap me. And then answer my question before I confuse myself into a pretzel please :)
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Just to clarify for my partially asleep self. (i wake up at the butt-crack of dawn for work so I tend to be tired)

While the subguilds wont be implemented on current pc's, once this goes live, you NEXT account notes/ karma review will be done using the before mentioned guidelines. At that time they will review your current karma/notes and past things, and update karma accordingly?

Second q: Does this mean someone can concievably jump more then one point at once, if they are on a long lived, leadership pc that contributes to the game regularly?
I remember recruiting this Half elf girl. And IMMEDIATELY taking her out on a contract. Right as we go into this gith hole I tell her "Remember your training, and you'll be fine." and she goes "I have no training." Then she died

Never doubted that, perhaps I picked some bad examples.  I was thinking more lopsided folks, that did well, or even exceptionally well in a couple of areas, but exceptionally poorly in others.  There has been a handful over the years I've read about, probably more if you include GDB behavior.

I am on the zero karma forever train, so while it may not apply to me, it is neat to see something like this implemented after so many years of related suggestions coming and going.
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."

Lizzie, I think we get karma given the same way as before, i.e. they are giving you the karma cap.

You spend your current karma, which would regenerate over time.  So you might have 3(5) karma, and need to wait 2 months to get back to 5 karma to spend...the imms would only be adjusting your max (5) karma.  The current karma regen would be automatic.

I assume you regen karma based starting on when you spend it.  So a 5(7) karma player makes a character and boosts skills by 2 karma, so they are 3(7)...a month later they will be 4(7)....a month later 5(7) etc....so they might die four months later and have their maximum possible current karma to spend.
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."

Nope, nothing works the way you have stated, Lizzie.

No matter what you choose you will always have 1 point of karma available.  You will never reduce below the 1 karma level.

Your karma level is whatever amount of karma points you have. If you have 4 points of karma you have 4 points of karma.  The difference is that you can spend the karma on various options and have it regen over time.   If you have 4 karma and choose a delf with 3 skill bumps and then die in 2 weeks you will find that you have only 1 karma point available.  If you keep that delf available for 3 months and then die your 3 points will have regenerated and you'll have your full 4 points to use if you wish.


"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Fredd - we will not be reviewing everyone's accounts for karma.  Karma will be awarded as per usual, when account notes are requested and when staff decide that a player has merited karma.   Once the new system kicks in you will have points available for spending on the various options.

Twilight - We haven't really given out extra guilds etc for a long time.  I joined staff in 2004 and since then I think I've seen that happen once.  I don't anticipate we'll be looking to do this as it makes things even more subjective and harder for staff to quantify.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

As to jumping multiple points at once please see previous posts.  This would be extremely rare, as it is now.  Karma is something that takes time, most 8 karma folks took years to get there, this is not likely to change.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Still confusing, I'm not getting the math. At all. I'm not seeing how this is making things easier for anyone, player or staff.

Maybe if we had something like karma plus bonus points...bonus points could be "spent" - meaning, used up, exchanged for the two things Adhira talks about in her announcement post. But karma points remain exactly how they are now.

The reason this would be a concern to me, is that for instance, as I said, a vivaduan is only 2 karma points. If I played for a few years under this system, and earned every possible point they have EXCEPT for the points awarded for understanding magick and its place in the world, why would I be entitled to play a rukkian? Because I show good leadership skills and send in regular reports? What do leadership skills and regular reports have to do with playing a rukkian?

And what happens if I show that I'm AMAZING with the magick side of the world - interact *perfectly* with other mages, and prove that I can play a rukkian better than anyone in the playerbase. But, then I decide somewhere along the way I want a skill bump, and now I'm not allowed to play one for another 5 months? What does a skill bump have to do with my ability to play a rukkian? I'm not any worse at it than I was yesterday.

If I have enjoyed 2 karma points for the past 3 years, I shouldn't have to "spend" either of those points on anything, and lose them for any amount of time. However, I like the idea of earning "bonus" points above and beyond those points I have had all along, to "spend" on "bonus" things. So sure I might have earned 4 "bonus" points, but I can't spend 5 points on stuff. I can spend 4. And continue to enjoy my 2 karma account.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 06:38:11 PM
Nope, nothing works the way you have stated, Lizzie.

No matter what you choose you will always have 1 point of karma available.  You will never reduce below the 1 karma level.

Your karma level is whatever amount of karma points you have. If you have 4 points of karma you have 4 points of karma.  The difference is that you can spend the karma on various options and have it regen over time.   If you have 4 karma and choose a delf with 3 skill bumps and then die in 2 weeks you will find that you have only 1 karma point available.  If you keep that delf available for 3 months and then die your 3 points will have regenerated and you'll have your full 4 points to use if you wish.


Okay then that's my concern. I understand it now, and it's definitely a concern. If I've -had- 2 karma all along, have earned it, and enjoyed it, and not abused it, for years..and I earn more than that, and use more for one character, I should still revert back to the 2 I had all along. Not because of the math - the math would indicate that isn't possible. But because I had earned that 2 points for 3 years.

So if I have 4, *to begin with, before you even change this system and implement it*...and get another point, and use 2 of those total 5 points on something, I shouldn't have to give up that 4th point for 5 months. I should just revert back to the initial 4. In other words, you shouldn't have to lose what you started out with. If you started out with +2, then YOUR "zero" should be +2. If you started out with 1, then YOUR "zero" should be 1. Calibration I think is the word I'm looking for. Once you use up what you're allowed to "spend," and your character dies, you should be recalibrated back to whatever you started out with before you got the "extra" points.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 06:42:13 PM
As to jumping multiple points at once please see previous posts.  This would be extremely rare, as it is now.  Karma is something that takes time, most 8 karma folks took years to get there, this is not likely to change.

Alrighty. wonderful

Now one last thing.

Thank you for sitting here on your comp, answering all of our silly q's in such a timely manner.

I think i've sent this in as a staff kudos once but it bears mentioning again adhira.

you are awesome.
I remember recruiting this Half elf girl. And IMMEDIATELY taking her out on a contract. Right as we go into this gith hole I tell her "Remember your training, and you'll be fine." and she goes "I have no training." Then she died

No we won't be changing the system to a bonus point system.

You don't spend points on normal guild options up to karma point 4, so that point is moot.  If you want to play a high level guild option such as a sorceror you will end up subject to point regeneration.  Your points will reduce, as previously stated, to a minimum of 3 points for normal guild options.

Nowhere did we say that the karma options for normal guilds would change.  If you have two points you have the two point options open to you.  


"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.