Author Topic: Half-breeds and sexual equality  (Read 16422 times)

NOFUN

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2011, 08:39:00 AM »
I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make, which was me wondering why muls are valued more as slaves than HGs when HG's seem to have more desireable slave traits. If anything, I could imagine a king trying to fill his army with muls that lead, being brave as dwarves, stronger than HGs and as smart as humans. :)
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Zoan

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2011, 09:06:17 AM »
Please don't do crossdressing men. They're as 'original' as 'I am one of those rare Allanaki citizens/(even more commonly) Tuluki citizens who like mages because of x reason in my past!' and 'I am an unusually intellectual half-giant because I was trained by nobles'.

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NOFUN

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2011, 09:28:23 AM »
I don't see why not, since there's no sexism it wouldn't be an insult for a male to look like a female. I also very much doubt that any one would care ICLY or OOCLY if a female wore trousers
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 09:33:16 AM by NOFUN »
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Yam

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2011, 09:57:04 AM »
There's really nothing wrong with a pretty boy in a dress.


X-D

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2011, 11:39:33 AM »
Quote
I could imagine a king trying to fill his army with muls that lead, being brave as dwarves, stronger than HGs and as smart as humans. Smiley

Um, usually dwarves are not brave, not exactly. As a matter of fact, I've played dwarves that would run away from most things before the elves would. And Muls are NOT stronger then HGs.

Will fighting this monster/army/what have you help my focus...No..Oh, Will running away...Yes...SEE YA!
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Bilanthri

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2011, 12:23:14 PM »
I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make, which was me wondering why muls are valued more as slaves than HGs when HG's seem to have more desireable slave traits. If anything, I could imagine a king trying to fill his army with muls that lead, being brave as dwarves, stronger than HGs and as smart as humans. :)

Muls are difficult and expensive to breed. They are unpredictable and prone to violent emotional outbursts. A slave master that keeps muls must be very careful not to upset them or else they may kill each other, other slaves, or the slave master him/her self.

Half-giants literally breed themselves. They are predictable in their single-mindedness and are prone to mimic the most dynamic person around. A slave master keeping half-giants must be careful not to confuse them or else things may get misplaced, smashed, or painted the wrong color, but usually no one dies.

EDIT: The key reason muls are desirable as slaves is the fact that they are so expensive and difficult to keep. In the same way that a noble wears shoes that would be nearly impossible to walk in while being carried on a litter borne on the backs of slaves.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 12:26:51 PM by Bilanthri »
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Marshmellow

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2011, 01:08:39 PM »
EDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.
Yes, but back to the point...

In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.
Those we can agree on.

But height? Petiteness? Musculature? There comes a point where we have to agree that yes, some of these are masculine, some are these are feminine.

The important part is not to stereotype, and to avoid prejudice against masculine women or feminine men IC. Men and women are not necessarily the same. But they are equal, to the point where there should be nothing strange or inferior about a man with feminine traits, or a woman with masculine traits.
Actually, in Zalanthas, there is no difference in height, size or musculature that make having one of these traits in abundance or a lack of one of these traits either masculine or feminine.  The only things that are different are that men got a peepee and facial hair and women got a hooha and wubblies, along with all the procreational nonsense that comes from those parts.  THAT IS IT.

...and Lizzie, staff make mistakes, but the higher-seniority staff have backed up my position more.  The fact that these words are used is simply a sign, to me, that we're using language the players understand and can identify with rather than what the characters would.  That or that they're using the term clinically, like in the case of a 'feminine (item)', because it is cut so that there's room for the boobies.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 01:15:20 PM by Marshmellow »
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Yam

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2011, 01:13:18 PM »
I'm pretty sure certain facial traits and structures are inherently masculine or feminine, even on Zalanthas. At least that's how it appears in various NPC descriptions. You can go look around and see for yourself.

Marshmellow

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2011, 01:16:07 PM »
I will maintain that those are there because of the submitters' hangups, their opinions on what makes a male or a female, rather than what is the reality for the gameworld.
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musashi

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2011, 03:33:50 PM »
There's really nothing wrong with a pretty boy in a dress.



Seriously. Ask the Arabs. It's all good.

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hyzhenhok

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2011, 03:39:12 PM »
EDITED TO CLARIFY: not all women are feminine. Not all men are masculine. But there -are- feminine traits, and there -are- masuline traits. And they are identifiable, in those who possess them.
Yes, but back to the point...

In Zalanthas...
Strength is not a masculine trait.
Weakness is not a feminine trait.
Those we can agree on.

But height? Petiteness? Musculature? There comes a point where we have to agree that yes, some of these are masculine, some are these are feminine.

The important part is not to stereotype, and to avoid prejudice against masculine women or feminine men IC. Men and women are not necessarily the same. But they are equal, to the point where there should be nothing strange or inferior about a man with feminine traits, or a woman with masculine traits.
Actually, in Zalanthas, there is no difference in height, size or musculature that make having one of these traits in abundance or a lack of one of these traits either masculine or feminine.  The only things that are different are that men got a peepee and facial hair and women got a hooha and wubblies, along with all the procreational nonsense that comes from those parts.  THAT IS IT.

...and Lizzie, staff make mistakes, but the higher-seniority staff have backed up my position more.  The fact that these words are used is simply a sign, to me, that we're using language the players understand and can identify with rather than what the characters would.  That or that they're using the term clinically, like in the case of a 'feminine (item)', because it is cut so that there's room for the boobies.

So we agree that as long as it's not referred to IC, it's not a problem?

Synthesis

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2011, 05:56:44 PM »
I don't think half-giants shouldn't be thought of as reliable employees at all, when they're put in the free-wheeling situations most PCs find themselves in.  HGs might make good labor slaves for doing things that require minimum skill and responsibility, but having a half-giant as your sole hunting buddy or personal bodyguard seems like a potentially disastrous idea.

It's noted in the docs that their loyalties can shift quite easily, which is one reason elves can't stand them.  They're also (supposed to be) quite easily duped, and they're probably quite easy to manipulate via psionics.  These traits aren't much of a detriment for most NPC and VNPC roles, but I don't think the same can be said for most of the roles PCs pick up.
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HavokBlue

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2011, 06:04:37 PM »
I wish my pick pockets could convince the half-giant jailers to let them out. :(
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Qzzrbl

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2011, 05:49:44 PM »
EDIT: The key reason muls are desirable as slaves is the fact that they are so expensive and difficult to keep. In the same way that a noble wears shoes that would be nearly impossible to walk in while being carried on a litter borne on the backs of slaves.

Unless they're Byn muls.

Then it's more like, "Fuck yeah! Make fun of his mom and throw him in that spider den-- this is gonna be cool! :D"
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Dar

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2011, 07:04:58 PM »
There is a jacket that was specifically tailored to allow for breasts. Is that considered a feminine jacket? Hell ... yes. Can men still wear it? Hell ... yes. Will it look weird? Yes. It would. Why? Because it's not 'masculine' for men to wear feminine clothing? No ... it's just stupid. Why would you wear a jacket that's designed for things that ... you dont have?


I dont really know why it was more common for women to wear skirts instead of pants. My only two guesses is that they're easier to hike up for quickie sex, or ... they're less a pain to remove when you need to pee.

A man wouldnt wear the top that's ment to cover the breasts and nothing more. Because a top like that on a woman looks sexy, with much of the skin and curves revealed but the most desirable ones, and on a man it's just a strip of tight cloth wrapped around the body.

Equality and sexuality got nothing to do with each other. Point is ... Women can kill you just as easily as Men could. Take it or leave it.


Muls arent even considered people, really. It's like saying ... why do you insult a half-breed, but dont insult my pet gortok, he's probably not pure bred either. Muls are sterile as well, so they're not really even a race. There arent any Mul children living in a Mul Village. If there is a mul village, all of those muls came from 'somewhere'. Muls are objects. Like 15 packets of flashpowder in your apartment. They're very useful, very expensive, but you wouldnt want to sleep in the same room where they're stored.

I mostly agree with Synthesis assessment on half-giants. Half-giants arent really half half of any other race. They're just not full Giants. Kind of like an Inix is very tall (Taller then many people realize), but it's no Bahamet. So you cant relly spit on them for being a half bred, since 99% population of Zalanthas, never even met the race they're a part of.


Erythil

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2011, 08:12:47 PM »
I feel compelled to point out that there must be SOME level of accepted difference between the sexes.  After all, it's an institutional part of Tuluki government that male templar tend more to war and females more to government and other things.

A bunch of people are saying 'nobody would find cross-dressing weird' and I disagree with this.  I think it should be more 'there are far fewer things which are owned solely by one sex or the other.'

musashi

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2011, 08:31:25 PM »
I feel compelled to point out that there must be SOME level of accepted difference between the sexes.  After all, it's an institutional part of Tuluki government that male templar tend more to war and females more to government and other things.

Yeah heh ... the whole "Armageddon has no gender type casting" thing smacks itself in the face when you start talking about the Tuluki Templarate. Best to just ignore those. They're the odd man out.

OTHER than the Templarate in Tuluk ... there are no gender discriminations in Armageddon.

To me, that means that anything you would normally consider a cultural gender stereotype is a no no.

The idea that women should be home makers.
That women should be the ones to raise the children.
That men should do the hunting.
That women should be subservient.
That men should be making the important family decisions.

All that's a big no-go area.

But clothing? FFS people ... it would be weird if a man wore a woman's dress for the same reason it would be weird if a gortok wore a woman's dress. Wrong shape.
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Reiloth

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2011, 11:32:37 PM »
I feel compelled to point out that there must be SOME level of accepted difference between the sexes.  After all, it's an institutional part of Tuluki government that male templar tend more to war and females more to government and other things.

Yeah heh ... the whole "Armageddon has no gender type casting" thing smacks itself in the face when you start talking about the Tuluki Templarate. Best to just ignore those. They're the odd man out.

OTHER than the Templarate in Tuluk ... there are no gender discriminations in Armageddon.

To me, that means that anything you would normally consider a cultural gender stereotype is a no no.

The idea that women should be home makers.
That women should be the ones to raise the children.
That men should do the hunting.
That women should be subservient.
That men should be making the important family decisions.

All that's a big no-go area.

But clothing? FFS people ... it would be weird if a man wore a woman's dress for the same reason it would be weird if a gortok wore a woman's dress. Wrong shape.

I think this is the most on point in this discussion. When I think of 'equality between men and women' I think these situations do not arise in Zalanthas:
-Discriminating against a female because of her sex, IE: Not hiring a woman hunter, because men are obviously better.
-Assuming a man hunter is better than the woman hunter, based on sex rather than results.
-Firing an employee based on their sex.
-Assuming gender stereotypes, like women are excellent cooks.

I think masculine (something that enhances the male aspect) and feminine (something that enhances the female aspect) are totally legitimate. A jacket cut to fit a pair of tits is feminine. A codpiece is typically masculine, but a chick is totally within her rights to protect 'her jewels' as well.
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boog

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2011, 01:19:22 AM »
I think there are good reasons for above inequalities, but that could just be me.

Women do have far prettier clothing to choose from in game though, for real!
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Cindy42

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2011, 06:39:31 AM »
Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.

yeah, what are they supposed to be attracted to, exactly? they're not natural. there's always going to be something gross about their racial preferences, unless they only get attracted to other half-elves, which probably isn't the majority case.

edited for error
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 09:05:22 AM by Cindy42 »
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hyzhenhok

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2011, 08:52:07 AM »
Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.

yeah, what are they supposed to be attracted to, exactly? they're not natural. there's always going to be something gross about their racial preferences, unless they only get attracted to other elves, which probably isn't the majority case.

On a physical level, half elves are likely to seek out a partner needily, only to pull out at the last minute and wank themselves off to finish.

Qzzrbl

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2011, 09:27:08 AM »
Lets not forget that due to the hormones/whatever racing throgh the half elves, that they arent right in the head.

yeah, what are they supposed to be attracted to, exactly? they're not natural. there's always going to be something gross about their racial preferences, unless they only get attracted to other elves, which probably isn't the majority case.

Because these brooding badasses need to prove to everyone that they can do stuff by themselves, amirite?
On a physical level, half elves are likely to seek out a partner needily, only to pull out at the last minute and wank themselves off to finish.
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Cindy42

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2011, 09:33:13 AM »
i wonder if there's ever been a dwarven focus involving sex.

ontopic: do half-elves ever have half-elves with other half-elves, i mean, does it happen in player backgrounds, what would be the culturally known conclusion on that? and do half-elves have quarter humans and quarter elven children, ever? is this allowed in player backgrounds? say your player background is that you had a half-elf mother with a human father, and chose the human race. the fact that half-elves aren't sterile poses a few loose ends that i bet i'm not the only person to wonder about.
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X-D

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2011, 09:46:45 AM »
Half-elves breed just fine, though a quarter elf is still a breed, or a quarter human, and beyond.
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hyzhenhok

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Re: Half-breeds and sexual equality
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2011, 09:56:09 AM »
i wonder if there's ever been a dwarven focus involving sex.

ontopic: do half-elves ever have half-elves with other half-elves, i mean, does it happen in player backgrounds, what would be the culturally known conclusion on that? and do half-elves have quarter humans and quarter elven children, ever? is this allowed in player backgrounds? say your player background is that you had a half-elf mother with a human father, and chose the human race. the fact that half-elves aren't sterile poses a few loose ends that i bet i'm not the only person to wonder about.

First, assume humans and elves are biologically the same species.

Secondly, the Zalanthan concept of "half-elf" does not describe genotype. It does not mean 50% human, 50% elf. It describes phenotype. You are only a half-elf if others know you're a half-elf; even for 50/50 mixes it's sometimes obvious, sometimes not. The other way for them to know is to have direct knowledge of your ancestry; in that case, go by a one-drop rule.

The thing is, they do not track geneologies of commoners, so if you had a grandparent or great-grandparent that was an elf or half-elf but you look completely human, odds are no one will know (besides your parents; you might not even know). Mathematically speaking, it's likely every human on Zalanthas has an elven ancestor and vice versa, but they don't know it and there's no evidence.

So if it looks like a breed, it's a breed. If you know it had both a human and elf parent, it's a breed. If one or both of its parents were breeds, it's a breed.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 09:58:05 AM by hyzhenhok »