Author Topic: Religion Docs- Second Draft  (Read 10830 times)

Lizzie

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2010, 09:51:48 AM »
I agree with jtorrie about the mini-cults that crop up, based on superstition and witness of "strange things." Someone might see a shadow over the sky and decide it's The Wyvern returning, and BOOM - a cult is formed. Someone else might see a pack of jakhals somewhere they don't normally live, along with a bunch of herbs dropped by someone...and BANG - the Voodoo RastaFari Gang hath arrived.

Then there's the whole atheistic thing in the first paragraph. I'm not so sure people are atheistic, as they are agnostic. They dwell within the scope of their own ignorance, and they know this. They know, that they don't know enough about the God Kings, to say anything about them one way or another. They know, that they don't know enough about what happens after they die, to state anything for fact, or even have any kind of solid belief. There's been rumors of all kinds of weird "not alive" things, creatures, people, incidences. So they know that there's SOMETHING beyond the corpse. But what that is, they don't know. They can speculate, but they're too busy trying to survive to speculate much. So they really don't do a lot of that.
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Barzalene

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2010, 11:49:09 AM »
I really like what you've done.

Some thoughts that occurred to me include:
Do people believe that either or both have some dominion over the elements?

What about exchanging the word rescuer for protector?

Based on a very public event back in '07 or 08 I think perhaps a way to show a difference between Tek and Muk is to play up fear and reliance with Tek and with Muk awe and the sense of omnipresent presence.
 
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Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Decameron

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2010, 12:22:54 PM »

Other Beliefs

Those with knowledge of magick sometimes apply religious language and ideas to their spells. The various elements such as Ruk, Krath and Whira are often personified, and sometimes thought of as gods. These concepts rarely form into true religions. When they do, they are considered dangerous and heretical by the templarate of both city-states. The Rescued has initiated more than one "cleansing" in the Gemmed Quarter of Allanak.

While I can see this being true for the Elementalist Quarter in Allanak, it never quite made sense to me outside of it. Religion, almost other things, is supposed to bring its followers together until a system of belief, and when you have a Krathi believing in Krath is the best 'higher power'and a Whiran doing the same, and they try to form a religious structure together, you get a case of the Mygodisbetterthanyoursatosis. This might be useful in a City-State where you're attempting to keep a certain small, very dangerous percentage of the City-State down in the dirt, but outside of Allanak, I think that in small pockets of these communities, if they exist, there would be a more unifying element rather than focusing on strict elemental properties.

Not all elementalists have to use 'Whira', 'Ruk', 'Krath' - or the rest. But they do have to use these guys, give or take:

  Chran
    The master, the will of the dominant.

  Echri
    The destroyer.

  Grol
    The giant guardsman, protector.

  Hekro
    The aggressive warrior.

  Hurn
    The mad, brutal one.

  Inrof
    The seeker of the hidden, the revealer.

  Nikiz
    The passive watcher.

  Viod
    The neutral maker.

  Wril
    The giver of good.

So it always made more sense to me to believe that these moods would be the ones being personified into higher powers, rather than relying solely upon one's element, due to the fact that it causes friction and dissention amongst its own practitioners. Certain memebers on that list have already been attributed in the game (maybe) in both magick and non-magic dialogues. Why not the rest of them? Just a thought.

In addition, religion often helps to explain the world surrounding us and how we got here. It doesn't necessarily have to fall into the whole creation mythos (although one might be nice), but there should be local myths, or fables regarding how certain things were made. The Shield Wall? Silt Sea? Grey Forest? People take these things for granted, certainly, as they've 'merely always been there' but religion is a powerful tool of explanation - even if the answer has to be a repetition of "Highlord made it. Highlord made it. Highlord made it." in certain cases.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 12:28:28 PM by Decameron »

Old Kank

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2010, 02:20:42 PM »
Reposting from the 'Religion' thread:

Quote
With much respect to the work you've put into this, and Talia's guiding influence, I have to say that widespread, formalized religion is one of the last things I want to see in this game.  I hope the official staff position on these documents is that they're unsanctioned, and I hope they go away before they have a chance to sink into the hive mind.

I don't see how any of this improves the game, and I can just point to jriley's post for reasons why I think it will harm the game.

I really don't mean this as a criticism of the docs, or the work everyone has put into them; I just have no desire to see religion formalized within the game.

I'm kind of blindsided by the fact that nobody else has spoken out against this.  The idea has been brought up time and time again on these boards, and it's typically been universally shot down.  Why the apparent culture shift?

Here's why I don't want to see formal religion in Arm:

Religion makes characters less interesting.  The pro-religion argument seems to be "It will create nice RP flavor."  I disagree.  Religion is a panacea that players will use as an RP crutch in the face of more interesting answers.  Sandstorms won't quit?  Tek is angry.  Tuluk gets flooded?  Utep is disappointed in you.

It's hard to resist the push toward zealotry.  It's very easy to go down that slope where everything a character does is guided by religion.  "I'm killing gith because Tek wills it!" or "The gith almost killed me, but Tek's will intervened and I survived!"  I suspect the problem will only become worse if tangible benefits are ever introduced by templars trying to encourage faith amongst the populace.  The nobility will have to follow suit, and soon the city-states will be full of zombies.

Religious arguments are boring because they lack resolution.  I'm all for conflict in this game, but religion is the most uninteresting reason to have it.  Fighting over real resources that characters can see and interact with?  Fascinating.  One city becoming an oppressive empire just because the opportunity was there?  Very cool.  Lynching people, berating merchants, or going to war because my god is better than your god?  Meh.  What's the end-game there?  Both sides perpetually harry one another until Tek and Utep duke it out?

These aren't just idle speculations on my part.  They're trends that have proven themselves time and time again with religious PCs.  What we have now is fine.  Players are free to try out religious characters if they want, and their superstitions and religious beliefs usually die out with them.  In my opinion, the only way to make religion work as a positive element of the game is to make it an antagonistic outside force like the various cults that pop up from time to time.

Erythil

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2010, 02:30:24 PM »
I don't think anybody expects or wants to see earth-style religious orthodoxy and clerical competition emerge.  I think the intention of the above documentation is more to capture the essence of what exists in-game already, rather than create a new mode of thought.  A small bit of zealotry already exists in-game, without anything written down to encourage it -- I think I disagree with the premise that having a handy reference for newcomers in particular will make the essence of things as they stand change.

Although I would disagree with one of your points and say that part of what makes religious debate and philosophy in general interesting is the very lack of an ability to finalize a conclusion, but I kind of enjoy debate for debate's sake.

Aaron Goulet

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2010, 03:40:53 PM »
I've always thought of "religion" in the cities as more as, "there's a big, scary dude watching, better appear to be loyal," more than, "ZOMG teh Highlordz rulez!"

I've had similar experiences to Lizzie with PCs who subscribe to the latter type of religion, especially within the militia.
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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2010, 04:34:01 PM »
It was once stated by an overlord that most people in the cities are atheist, hell, might have been in the docs at one time.

Myself, I agree with Old Kank, but I've not spouted off against the work being done etc because, well, it really does not matter if it gets done or not.

I can still make a PC who is atheist or whatever, it is not something that is going to be forced on you in char creation and even if 95% of the players started making religous PCs, it would not last. A year from then it would be back to normal, such things never last.

I only see FDMWH's work as possible documentation for peopl to use IF they want a religous PC and so they can keep it in line with the world, no more, no less.
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flurry

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2010, 10:25:29 PM »
This is maybe just a small quibble, but the idea that Zalanthans are too preoccupied with survival to be religious doesn't really sit right with me. To me, it seems like Zalanthas, with all its harshness and unexplained phenomena, provides almost ideal conditions for religions to flourish. So, even though I agree that most people in the known world probably wouldn't do a great deal of philosophical pondering about religion, I don't see why that would mean there's no room for religion in their culture.

Don't get me wrong, though; I'm not saying I have a problem with atheistic Zalanthans. On the contrary, I think we need to have that option, and not just as the exception, because generally (I think) people have been playing it that way as it is. I'm just saying that I don't like the struggle for survival as an explanation. No atheists in foxholes, and all that.

Overall, though, I think it's a great effort to start to get some documentation together. This is one area where I think it's good to have some documentation in place as a jumping off point, especially because religion is often going to reflect some kind of longstanding tradition. So it's better to have some baseline to start with, rather than expect each player to individually to invent it all from scratch. After all, if it's cultural, it's nice to have some common ground and consistency (as we do with other culture-related documentation).
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Potaje

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2010, 02:35:48 PM »
I have a Question, are we confusing Religion with spirituality? There is a vast difference between the two and i could see Z-landers having  a sense of both but leaning more towards a spirituality. Believing in the spirit over an organized God-head.

Also I think Religion would come to heads with magic or Magic vs. Religion. As religion is based al lot on ideas of fear and as a means to control groups of people. They would use the unexplainable acts that occurred and assign them to God/Devil and then manipulate the others with in this fear.
 
I would think with the high magic and known unknowns, and unknown knowns that Gickers and wigglers would take the place of all that is un-explainable. Hence being easily explained away and not needing to attribute these things to a God/devil.

Of coarse there are also simply the elements which if acting strangely would simply be some freak'n gigcker upsetting the balance of the land or just the lands itself in all its turmoil.

 Not that it would be impossible for some tribe or group of desert folk to make sun sacrifices or to Ruk, but then wouldn't these jus be atributed to some kind of gicker worship.

As far as the cities go. sure I can agree, Religion to control the people and not spirituality, meaning that they obey a god head (God-king as it is said), but hold little beyond that recognition of the physical embodiment of this -God head-. 

Now these are more just questions?
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Erythil

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Re: Religion Docs- Rough Draft
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2010, 03:41:50 PM »
It seems to me that a lot of the reason people don't want this side of the game treated is that our players seem to have an inherently negative and skeptical view of religion itself.  I don't want to start a contentious derail but religion need not be based on fear and manipulation; that's really the very recent and pessimistic view of atheist and skeptical movements.

Anyway, isn't 'spirituality' just a 'religion' without orthodoxy or hierarchical structure?  Tribal animism or shamanism, for example, is still a religion, even if it doesn't have the ceremonial trappings of a christian church.  I see zal as theoretically being more suited for those kinds of traditions, and greek-and-roman style cults.

Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2010, 06:43:22 PM »
The second draft is now up and open for discussion.
EvilRoeSlade wrote:
Quote
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You shout, in sirihish:
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Barzalene

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2010, 07:01:46 PM »
I'm liking the  changes a lot.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2010, 07:12:18 PM »
Just responding to some stuff I didn't have the chance to respond to earlier:

I mean, in a world with gemmers eating babies and spreading magical cataclysms every Detal, it's not like the common man has any need to rely on conjecture to deal with the metaphysical. The metaphysical is right there, sitting at the end of the bar, and he's a filthy monster who you'd happily chop up with your bone swordz if you could get away with it. But you can't, so you swear fealty to the biggest monster around and hope he keeps the little ones in line.

The trouble with this argument, I think, is that the average commoner demonstrates at least a basic understanding that magick exists. Furthermore, they understand (or believe) that while most magick is evil, the magick of templars is permissible.

So, in the average commoner's mind:
Elementalists = Bad
Defilers = Very Bad*
Templars = Good**

Therefore, commoners have at least a somewhat nuanced view of magic. What makes a templar's magic okay, but an elementalist's bad? The answer, for most Zalanthans, would be faith; the understanding that the templars are somehow "better" or "different" because their magick serves a higher purpose. In Zalanthas, magick does not equal miracles. Supernatural does not equal divine. This is something every commoner "knows" (although I doubt they'd be able to express it intelligibly). And it is precisely this which allows for characters that live in the shadow of a god-king, but don't worship them. That is to say, agnostic characters that more or less lack any true sense of spirituality or faith. They'd simply believe that Templars = Bad as well, keep their heads down, and leave it at that.

Then there's the whole atheistic thing in the first paragraph. I'm not so sure people are atheistic, as they are agnostic. They dwell within the scope of their own ignorance, and they know this. They know, that they don't know enough about the God Kings, to say anything about them one way or another. They know, that they don't know enough about what happens after they die, to state anything for fact, or even have any kind of solid belief.

This is exactly right. "Agnostic" is much better term than "atheist," at least for most Zalanthans. Thank you, Lizzie.

Though, I figure truly atheistic characters could exist. It's not hard to believe that Muk/Tek is dead, and that his templars are just ruling in his stead. It's probably wrong, and it's likely not a common view, but it's a possibility for a PC background, at least.

Based on a very public event back in '07 or 08 I think perhaps a way to show a difference between Tek and Muk is to play up fear and reliance with Tek and with Muk awe and the sense of omnipresent presence.
I wonder if it'd be appropriate to mention this event in the document. It seems significant, and likely influences Tuluk's view of their king. Still, I'm not going to say anything more about unless I get explicit staff approval that it's okay to document.

So it always made more sense to me to believe that these moods would be the ones being personified into higher powers, rather than relying solely upon one's element, due to the fact that it causes friction and dissention amongst its own practitioners.
That's a perfectly valid view, but the purpose of this document is not to give an exhaustive list of every crazy thing a person in Zalanthas could believe. It's meant to consolidate information and give players a sense of the prevailing views. Setting up a cult around magick moods or spheres is a possibility that I think the docs allow for. Why don't you try and start one up in-game?

Religion makes characters less interesting.  The pro-religion argument seems to be "It will create nice RP flavor."  I disagree.  Religion is a panacea that players will use as an RP crutch in the face of more interesting answers.  Sandstorms won't quit?  Tek is angry.  Tuluk gets flooded?  Utep is disappointed in you.
First of all, I really appreciate you reposting and elaborating on your concerns, Old Kank. I want to hear as many opinions on this document as possible, including dissenting ones.

Second of all, I understand your concerns. Believe it or not, I share a lot of your concerns. Extreme religiosity could destroy a lot of the flavor of Arm. That's why I jumped on the task of writing this document; I wanted to make sure that didn't happen. The purpose of this document is not to fundamentally alter the world. If I do this right, nothing in the game world should change.[/b] The goal of this document is to consolidate and inform, not retcon.

I quoted the above concern because it seems very flimsy and subjective to me. Why is "Tek creates sandstorms when he's angry" a crutch? Why is that answer "less interesting" than other answers? Just because you might not like religion or religious characters, or just because you've had some bad experiences with them, doesn't mean that they can't, shouldn't, or won't exist in the game world. We need to accept the fact that the game world has a spiritual side, and then set to work on the task of making sure that spiritual side fits the game world and is an enjoyable aspect of roleplaying for everybody.

I think the intention of the above documentation is more to capture the essence of what exists in-game already, rather than create a new mode of thought.  A small bit of zealotry already exists in-game, without anything written down to encourage it -- I think I disagree with the premise that having a handy reference for newcomers in particular will make the essence of things as they stand change.
Erythil said it better than I did.
I only see FDMWH's work as possible documentation for peopl to use IF they want a religous PC and so they can keep it in line with the world, no more, no less.
This is exactly my intent. If I can achieve this, I'll be happy.

*Just in case somebody asks: "What about preservers?," my answer would be, "the average commoner has no idea what a preserver is."
**Technically, this equation goes more like "Templars = Scary, but they serve the god-king and prevent hordes of ravenous gith from chopping me up in my sweet, dreamless sleep, so I guess they're Good." I was just trying to be brief.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 07:14:28 PM by FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit »
EvilRoeSlade wrote:
Quote
You find a bulbous root sac and pick it up.
You shout, in sirihish:
"I HAVE A BULBOUS SAC"
Quote
A staff member sends:
     "You are likely dead."

Barzalene

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2010, 07:26:03 PM »
Right. I didn't mean that you should reference the event. I meant that the event seems to me to support the assertion of both benevolence and caution.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Barzalene

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2010, 07:27:15 PM »
I like how you handled it. By the way. That was what I meant exactly.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

jstorrie

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2010, 08:54:02 PM »
I like this revision quite a lot. Keep up the god work.

The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2010, 02:02:28 AM »
This is a great doc, and should be gamified.
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jriley

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2010, 12:45:42 AM »
I think FDM is putting a lot of good effort into it, but I'm not really happy with the result.

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Synthesis

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2010, 02:08:44 AM »
I can't really see Allanaki loyalists engaged in proselytizing in the world at large.  The Known consists of two major cities with mutually exclusive religiosities, Red Storm (whose citizens are by and large folks who are probably trying to avoid notice by officials of the major cities), and Luir's, which is run by folks who are probably still a little annoyed by the fact that Allanak annexed it in the none-too-distant past.

Allanaki evangelistas aren't going to convert tribal humans, they're not interested in converting desert elves, they'd be insane to attempt to convert Tulukis, Red Stormers would laugh at them, desert-elves would kill them, Kuracis would run them out of town...what's left?  It seems pointless and thematically out-of-place to paint worshippers of Tektolnes as evangelists.  Everyone who wants to worship Tektolnes is already in Allanak, and the rest of the world is a bunch of heathens waiting to be smote...smited...smitten?
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2010, 02:13:23 AM »
Smitten.
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LauraMars

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2010, 05:57:07 AM »
I like this revision quite a lot. Keep up the god work.

I see what you did there.
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Lizzie

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2010, 08:38:50 AM »
I can't really see Allanaki loyalists engaged in proselytizing in the world at large.  The Known consists of two major cities with mutually exclusive religiosities, Red Storm (whose citizens are by and large folks who are probably trying to avoid notice by officials of the major cities), and Luir's, which is run by folks who are probably still a little annoyed by the fact that Allanak annexed it in the none-too-distant past.

Allanaki evangelistas aren't going to convert tribal humans, they're not interested in converting desert elves, they'd be insane to attempt to convert Tulukis, Red Stormers would laugh at them, desert-elves would kill them, Kuracis would run them out of town...what's left?  It seems pointless and thematically out-of-place to paint worshippers of Tektolnes as evangelists.  Everyone who wants to worship Tektolnes is already in Allanak, and the rest of the world is a bunch of heathens waiting to be smote...smited...smitten?

Not everyone who lives in Allanak *worships* Tektolnes. In fact, most don't. Most are, as I said, agnostic. They acknowledge that there's some mysterious spooky scary freakazoid entity called Tektolnes whose minions wear robes and kill people for having crossed eyes. But worship? Nah. Worship involves some measure of adoration. I'm doubting that the vast majority of people adore Tek. Fear, yeah. Adore, no. They obey him because he can kill them. Not because they have any particular love for him.

That's where the evangelist types can be interesting (at least til the mobs tell them to STFU and drag them to the sewers). Evangelists could be the ones with the sick adoration of this freak-boy, who feel that everyone should adore him as they do.

Muk Utep already DOES have actual genuine bonafide worshippers, people who adore him. Grab a few of those and kick it up a notch, and you can have yourself a merry mad muk cult.
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Qzzrbl

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2010, 09:17:20 AM »
I can't really see Allanaki loyalists engaged in proselytizing in the world at large.  The Known consists of two major cities with mutually exclusive religiosities, Red Storm (whose citizens are by and large folks who are probably trying to avoid notice by officials of the major cities), and Luir's, which is run by folks who are probably still a little annoyed by the fact that Allanak annexed it in the none-too-distant past.

Allanaki evangelistas aren't going to convert tribal humans, they're not interested in converting desert elves, they'd be insane to attempt to convert Tulukis, Red Stormers would laugh at them, desert-elves would kill them, Kuracis would run them out of town...what's left?  It seems pointless and thematically out-of-place to paint worshippers of Tektolnes as evangelists.  Everyone who wants to worship Tektolnes is already in Allanak, and the rest of the world is a bunch of heathens waiting to be smote...smited...smitten?

Not everyone who lives in Allanak *worships* Tektolnes. In fact, most don't. Most are, as I said, agnostic. They acknowledge that there's some mysterious spooky scary freakazoid entity called Tektolnes whose minions wear robes and kill people for having crossed eyes. But worship? Nah. Worship involves some measure of adoration. I'm doubting that the vast majority of people adore Tek. Fear, yeah. Adore, no. They obey him because he can kill them. Not because they have any particular love for him.

That's where the evangelist types can be interesting (at least til the mobs tell them to STFU and drag them to the sewers). Evangelists could be the ones with the sick adoration of this freak-boy, who feel that everyone should adore him as they do.

Muk Utep already DOES have actual genuine bonafide worshippers, people who adore him. Grab a few of those and kick it up a notch, and you can have yourself a merry mad muk cult.


Well.... If you look at alot of RL religions, their central figures have done some pretty messed up stuff.
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Aruven

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Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2010, 06:08:54 PM »
I can't really see Allanaki loyalists engaged in proselytizing in the world at large.  The Known consists of two major cities with mutually exclusive religiosities, Red Storm (whose citizens are by and large folks who are probably trying to avoid notice by officials of the major cities), and Luir's, which is run by folks who are probably still a little annoyed by the fact that Allanak annexed it in the none-too-distant past.

Allanaki evangelistas aren't going to convert tribal humans, they're not interested in converting desert elves, they'd be insane to attempt to convert Tulukis, Red Stormers would laugh at them, desert-elves would kill them, Kuracis would run them out of town...what's left?  It seems pointless and thematically out-of-place to paint worshippers of Tektolnes as evangelists.  Everyone who wants to worship Tektolnes is already in Allanak, and the rest of the world is a bunch of heathens waiting to be smote...smited...smitten?

Not everyone who lives in Allanak *worships* Tektolnes. In fact, most don't. Most are, as I said, agnostic. They acknowledge that there's some mysterious spooky scary freakazoid entity called Tektolnes whose minions wear robes and kill people for having crossed eyes. But worship? Nah. Worship involves some measure of adoration. I'm doubting that the vast majority of people adore Tek. Fear, yeah. Adore, no. They obey him because he can kill them. Not because they have any particular love for him.

That's where the evangelist types can be interesting (at least til the mobs tell them to STFU and drag them to the sewers). Evangelists could be the ones with the sick adoration of this freak-boy, who feel that everyone should adore him as they do.

Muk Utep already DOES have actual genuine bonafide worshippers, people who adore him. Grab a few of those and kick it up a notch, and you can have yourself a merry mad muk cult.


Well.... If you look at alot of RL religions, their central figures have done some pretty messed up stuff.


In regards to the Allanak not having worshippers... There is a giant metal dragon over the gates. And, It's been -awhile-, but not -that- long, I am pretty sure the code still plays out a ceremony of morning devotions every dawn. And it includes everything from Templars to commoners. Do they adore him in a sense that christians adore christ, or catholics revere saints?

Probably not. But the fear mingled with gratitude and understanding that without the bad ass in a pyramid or a tower to look over you, the bitter cruelties far worse beyond the walls of whichever city you choose to revere would bury you in the sand in a heartbeat, is in itself enough to be considered worship I think.

Which, I still haven't seen a large but normally quiet piece of the IC 'religion' here, but I'll just go with the typical its too IC to cover.

Wolfsong

  • Posts: 1477
Re: Religion Docs- Second Draft
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2010, 06:22:00 PM »
Circumcision? Would it be practiced in any religion on Zalanthas, in specific tribal cultures only, would one city-state practice it over another, etc.?
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