Author Topic: Religion  (Read 11998 times)

jriley

  • Posts: 233
Re: Religion
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2010, 11:15:30 AM »
I'm posting here because I think that the other religious thread is getting close to completion, and I didn't want to clutter it up with my own opinions.

It's ironic that for years many players have neglected the religious aspects of their characters, some to the point where they've gotten wild ideas, including that their character is not religious.  

It's nice that religious discussion is finally coming to the forefront.  

I think that for many players, they don't play religious characters because they don't understand what sort of dialog two Worshippers of Muk Utep would engage in when having a religious chat.

One fact about religions is that no matter how extensive the canonical religious documentation is, they invariably fail to address every possible situation and so this invites non-heretical speculation about what the proper orthodox attitude is.

An example would be the Bhudda and pretzels.  While historians have written down quite a lot of stuff that Sidhartha probably said, he didn't say anything about pretzels, for the simple reason that they didn't have pretzels in dynastic China.  So it's easy to imagine a couple of Bhuddists having a discussion about whether or not pretzels are in accordance with the teachings of the Bhudda or not.

Sound silly?  Well keep in mind that fairly intense religious debate has centered around some fairly minor points:

*Whether or not good works should accompany faith.
*The succession line of Mohammet.
*Icons, good thing or bad thing?
*Whether or not some guy who died two thousand years before the advent of stem cell research would have approved of stem cell research.
*Eating pork, good thing or bad thing?
*Circumcision, good thing or bad thing?

And so I project that Zalanthan religious discussion proceeds along similar routes.  The Templarate push their own particular teachings about religion, but they don't have the time or motive to expound Tektolnes' opinions on every potential subject.  Imagine how confusing it would be to try to preserve religious doctrine among a culture that doesn't use writing?

So basically, no one would openly contradict the teachings of the templarate because they wouldn't want to be accused of spreading heresy, but speculating on any topic that's not covered by the Templarate would be entirely fair game.

Here are some examples of things that I believe that Allanaki would discuss religiously:

*Should a statue of Lord Tektolnes have black hair, the color of ethnic Allanaki or should he have purple hair because he was royalty?
*Lord Tektolnes was divine.  Should the rest of his bloodline be considered divine, and be worshipped as well?
*Should foreign slaves be converted to Tekism, or is the Great Lord Tektolnes disinterested in their prayers?



This is the kind of crap that people talk about all day.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 11:22:40 AM by jriley »
He said, "I don't fly coach, never save the roach."

Ampere

  • Posts: 1485
Re: Religion
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2010, 02:12:14 PM »
EDIT: wrong thread.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 02:16:14 PM by Ampere »
Quote from: science
An early study by Plaut and Kohn-Speyer (1947)[11] found that horse smegma had a carcinogenic effect on mice. Heins et al.(1958)

Old Kank

  • Posts: 665
Re: Religion
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2010, 12:51:54 AM »
I threw up a rough draft of a religion doc in Player Collaboration.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39564.msg551956.html#new
Critique welcomed. Carry on.

With much respect to the work you've put into this, and Talia's guiding influence, I have to say that widespread, formalized religion is one of the last things I want to see in this game.  I hope the official staff position on these documents is that they're unsanctioned, and I hope they go away before they have a chance to sink into the hive mind.

I don't see how any of this improves the game, and I can just point to jriley's post for reasons why I think it will harm the game.

Re: Religion
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2010, 04:53:48 AM »
With much respect to the work you've put into this, and Talia's guiding influence, I have to say that widespread, formalized religion is one of the last things I want to see in this game.  I hope the official staff position on these documents is that they're unsanctioned, and I hope they go away before they have a chance to sink into the hive mind.

I don't see how any of this improves the game, and I can just point to jriley's post for reasons why I think it will harm the game.
I appreciate your opinion (really, I do), but I think discussion of my proposed document should be limited to the player collaboration thread I started. It's the most likely way of making your opinion heard. Would you mind reposting this to my thread? I can't promise to keep up with this thread in addition to that one.
EvilRoeSlade wrote:
Quote
You find a bulbous root sac and pick it up.
You shout, in sirihish:
"I HAVE A BULBOUS SAC"
Quote
A staff member sends:
     "You are likely dead."

Wolfsong

  • Posts: 1477
Re: Religion
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2010, 03:17:53 PM »
This may have been touched on already, but all cultures have origin stories and creation myths - what about Zalanthas?
A dark-shelled scrab pinches at you, but you dodge out of the way.
A dark-shelled scrab brandishes its bone-handled, obsidian scimitar.
A dark-shelled scrab holds its bloodied wicked-edged, bone scimitar.

FantasyWriter

  • Posts: 9774
    • Tales of Then--Reflections of Now
Re: Religion
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2010, 04:51:46 PM »
This may have been touched on already, but all cultures have origin stories and creation myths - what about Zalanthas?

Most knowledge in -all- areas, (including religion and philosophy) were lost in the fall of the Empire of Man.  As has been said before, post-apocalypse Zalanthans have been too busy surviving, getting high, and procreating in order to preserver their species to worry about where it all came from.
Greb - To scavenge, forage, and if Whira is with you, loot the dead.
Grebber - One who grebs.

palomar

  • Posts: 2145
Re: Religion
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2010, 05:27:37 PM »
This may have been touched on already, but all cultures have origin stories and creation myths - what about Zalanthas?

Some of the tribes have such as part of their documentation.

jriley

  • Posts: 233
Re: Religion
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2010, 11:42:00 AM »
Hey, posting here because I didn't want to clutter up the other thread.

Yeah, I think that FDM doesn't seem to grasp that sometimes people genuinely like or venerate gods that most college-educated, Westernized earth humans would label as evil. 

For example, in prehistoric Ireland, it was pretty common to tie somebody up and toss them into a peat-bog in order to appease the gods.  Sounds pretty barbaric, huh?  But this is what people thought that their gods wanted.

Or how about South America?  Human sacrifice was central to these religions.  According to legend, 10,000* prisoners were once sacrificed in a single day.  Remember, people loved these gods.  They weren't doing this sort of violent stuff because they disliked their gods.  They loved their violent, bloodthirsty war gods and thought that this was what the gods wanted. 

People are perfectly willing to venerate evil gods.

For another example, keep in mind that the Judaic god is recorded as having cast entire cities into the ocean for no other reason than disagreeing with part of the population of these cities.  In religious texts, he is self-described as a "jealous, vengeful god."  The people who believe this like this guy.

The Vedic religious pantheon includes a being known as Shiva the Destroyer.  Shiva is such a bad dude that he actually makes Tektolnes look sweet and cuddly.  And again to point out, Hindus worship this guy.  They think he's okay. 


*I'm personally skeptical of this figure, but it does make the point.
He said, "I don't fly coach, never save the roach."

jriley

  • Posts: 233
Re: Religion
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2010, 11:56:32 AM »
With much respect to the work you've put into this, and Talia's guiding influence, I have to say that widespread, formalized religion is one of the last things I want to see in this game.  I hope the official staff position on these documents is that they're unsanctioned, and I hope they go away before they have a chance to sink into the hive mind.

I don't see how any of this improves the game, and I can just point to jriley's post for reasons why I think it will harm the game.

You know, I've considered your point, Old Kank.  Long have I as a player been persecuted for wanting to play religious characters, and it's only in recent memory that the tide has shifted.  However I am not insensitive to the fact that many players have no wish to play a religious character or to play around religious characters. 

But as I see it, there are many opportunities to avoid religion entirely.  For example, in the Great Merchant Houses, my understanding is that open professions of religion are discouraged by the clan leaders towards the goal of cultivating an image of political neutrality.  One of the neat things about the current religious situation in the game is that religious affiliation of any particular character is in large part more a political choice than a referendum on theology, metaphysics, justice, ethics or philosophy.  However if for any reason your character wishes to develop the image of political neutrality, it follows that he will likely abstain from public religious observance.  As is cropping up more and more in these sorts of role-playing discussions, all you need is a MacGuffin.

Additionally, I envision most "rough and tumble mercenaries" as having a somewhat skeptical outlook on the established religions.  Maybe I've picked this up from too many action movies?  But it probably fits the game.

On top of that, I'd tend to assume that most educated characters, as well as most well-traveled characters will have achieved a somewhat cosmopolitan viewpoint on religion as well.

So I guess what I'm saying is, that I think that even if there is a cultural shift among the playerbase and if these docs are adopted, then I think that you will still have plenty of opportunities to play non-religious characters and to play around non-religious characters.
He said, "I don't fly coach, never save the roach."