Author Topic: Religion  (Read 11531 times)

Beethoven

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Re: Religion
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 10:48:27 AM »
Zalanthas has reincarnation. When my character dies, his soul (me) will move on to possess some other hapless VNPC and imbue him/her with the divine gift of PChood. He just doesn't know that. ;)

Seriously, though, I wish that there was a belief in the afterlife in the city-states. Because the powers that be (interpret that how you will) say no, my PC won't believe in such things. But it would be cool to see something like Ancient Egypt, where nobles are buried along with some of their possessions so they could carry them along to the next life. Commoners would just have to cross their fingers (or whatever it is Zalanthans do) and hope for the best.

brytta.leofa

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Re: Religion
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2010, 10:56:19 AM »
It would be glorious if nobles (and only nobles) were thought to have an afterlife.
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Beethoven

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Re: Religion
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2010, 10:58:38 AM »
It would be glorious if nobles (and only nobles) were thought to have an afterlife.

Yeah, that would be pretty sweet.

X-D

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Re: Religion
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2010, 11:30:00 AM »
All the tribals would laugh at that.

Oh wait, they do anyway.

Far as I know there is no real religions in arm, but there is plenty of spirituality.
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Thunkkin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2010, 11:37:05 AM »
I've never understood why the religion of the city states (worshiping the Highlord or the Sun King) has never been fleshed out.

Why are there no set liturgies?  No standard prayers?  No standard forms of worship?  No standard beliefs about the god kings?  What are the holy days?  How does one show one's devotion, other than praying at the gates?  How do the god kings (officially) explain who and what they are?  What goes on in the temples of the dragon?

These things shouldn't be secrets.  They should exist in highly clarified, public documents on the website since every character born and raised in Allanak proper should know the answers to the above questions. 

It's NOT up to the PCs to come up with the answers to these questions since at any given time, the majority of players who tried to articulate OFFICIAL religious practices would risk being killed for it.  That leaves the low-ranking templars that PCs can play ... but even then, it would be odd if they were trying to establish official religious practices.  Yes, yes, I know everyone has examples of how their character came up with various rituals and forms of devotion ... but guess what?  Those rituals/deovtions died with your character.  There is no continuity in forms of worship.

If Muk/Tek DON'T want to pursue establishing their worship, one has to wonder why they're stupid.  Religion is a very, very useful tool and it's baffling that the god kings don't bother with it.

It would be neat to have a project of player contributions (with staff input and oversight of the sekrit stuffs) to develop this.
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Nyr

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Re: Religion
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2010, 12:12:05 PM »
I don't understand why you would think it necessary to have any of those things officially determined.

Develop your own liturgy.  The absence of an official documented one doesn't mean that you can't make one or even submit it.
Develop your own standard prayers.  See above.
Develop your own standard form of worship.  See above.
Develop your own beliefs about the god kings.  They could be wrong.  If heretical, they may get you killed.  Welcome to Zalanthas.
Develop your own holy days.  You can even do an RPT and invite people every year for it.
Find out a way to show your devotion yourself. 
Figure out why Muk Utep and Tektolnes don't explain officially who and what they are.  I'm not sure this would be IC for many characters, though.
Find out what goes on in the temple of the dragon yourself.  Can't see anything but a fountain and a white-robed templar?  When did these white robed templars appear?  Why are they there?  When did this happen?  You can figure all of this out by browsing the website at the very least.

Saying that you can't do these things is a cop out.

Players play what they want to play (within the reasonable boundaries of documentation); this stuff isn't documented because it's up to the players to determine it.

The one area I'd point out as a conflicting point is that Muk Utep and Tektolnes have no reason to explain what they are, and that Muk Utep and Tektolnes do appear to establish their worship in a de facto manner (there is nothing else to legitimately worship in a popular, open way in either city-state, therefore, they are worshiped).  Tektolnes has a temple devoted to him.  Devotions are done daily.  Utep's City is as full of zealots as Allanak, so how does this happen?  Make your own connections here.
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Talia

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Re: Religion
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2010, 12:26:29 PM »
It would be neat to have a project of player contributions (with staff input and oversight of the sekrit stuffs) to develop this.

Sometimes I think that players (me included) forget or are unaware that much of the current documentation for the game was developed by the players. (Of course, if you include staff in the definition of "players" then all of the documentation was developed by players.) Player-driven includes documentation, IMO. Traditions can and do take hold in game: "Smooth sands" as a desert-elf salutation was introduced by a player.

FWIW, speaking from my experience as a player, I've seen PCs in both city-states who practiced religion/spirituality revolving around their respective God-King, including beliefs in the afterlife, and it really added a richness to their roleplay. I like seeing PCs who are all over the continuum of belief, as to me it really spices the game up; it can provide a basis for conflict, both internal and external, and for character development. I do not personally prefer absolutist statements on the nature or presence or validity of roleplaying these beliefs; rather, I'd say, if you want to roleplay out religion/spirituality in the city-states then you are welcome to do so. When playing elsewhere, there may be documentation regarding religion/spirituality, and you are again welcome to roleplay that out within the bounds of the documentation. And if you don't want to roleplay it out in whatever role, you're welcome to do that, too.
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Malifaxis

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Re: Religion
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2010, 01:07:17 PM »
Much of Armageddon's documentation has been done by the players.  Why?  I have my own theories on that, which we won't go in to.

With this in mind, there's no reason that players can't create liturgies or rites or anything else they desire.  The problem is with getting them made into something so goddamn widely accepted that it becomes 'official.'  Know those precious little words the fucking dirty gyppos use?  That all started with players.  Players like you and me who had a staff member (the important ingredient) who backed their ideas.  A staff member who believed that what the players were doing was actually fucking important enough to be SAVED and passed on down the line.  This is where the disconnect is.  Staff don't automagickally know what's popular.  You have to tell them, and then, sometimes, tell them again.  Sometimes you have to rally a few people in support.  Sometimes you have to get 100 screaming motherfuckers in blue paint and skirts to moon the staff to let them know you're goddamn serious... but if you're persistent, it'll happen.

Oh... hey Talia, I see what you did there.

Damnit, I need to learn to fucking read someday.

So basically quit being a fucking pansy and write some rites.

Oh... and by the way... anyone up for making a goddamn religion with me?
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Gunnerblaster

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Re: Religion
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2010, 01:14:29 PM »
Oh... and by the way... anyone up for making a goddamn religion with me?
Let's do this shit.
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Barzalene

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Re: Religion
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2010, 01:17:04 PM »
I want to work on this with you. Can we start this evening?
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Gunnerblaster

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Re: Religion
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2010, 01:20:31 PM »
Player Collaboration:
Make a goddamn religion.

Code: [Select]
>change objective Make a goddamn religion.
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Laura, did weird tribal men follow you around at age 15?
If by weird tribal men you mean Christians then yes.

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Potaje

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Re: Religion
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2010, 01:31:20 PM »
I would like to see monk styled wanderers from the sands, spouting on about religious philosophies, converting people and haveing them become followers of an idea. Then maybe we could have some great wars again. 
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Thunkkin

  • Posts: 1967
Re: Religion
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2010, 01:46:26 PM »
I don't understand why you would think it necessary to have any of those things officially determined.

...

Players play what they want to play (within the reasonable boundaries of documentation); this stuff isn't documented because it's up to the players to determine it.

That's cool!  I wasn't meaning to cop out, per se... more, my point was that when these things are invented by characters, unless they are added to official documentation, their chances of continuing past the life of the character are slim.  So, it's not that players can't do these things, but rather that eventually there will need to be some documentation somewhere if these character's inventions are to have lasting impact.

My post was more of a call for "let's do this" rather than "we can't do this" - but I can see how it was unclear.  I still don't think PCs (characters), the average Amos on the street, can pull this off without it being the focus of the character but your suggestion that players submit ideas/documents is a great idea.




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Thunkkin

  • Posts: 1967
Re: Religion
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2010, 01:48:54 PM »
So basically quit being a fucking pansy and write some rites.

Malifaxis is correct.  The first starting point will have to be celibate pansies.  That's how most of the good religions start.
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You go south and one of the other directions that isn't north.  That is seriously the limit of my geographical knowledge of Arm.
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Erythil

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Re: Religion
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2010, 02:16:56 PM »
I just think that for the incoming player, there's a lot of 'general knowledge' stuff that isn't really documented.  Even reading through the documentation fervently when I first signed up, I could've got myself into quite a bit of trouble if I belted out a 'thank god!'

I think it'd be nice to just have a basic file in the documentation about religion, saying that rather than devotion to abstract deities, cults of personality to so-and-so are well-established and common superstitions are such-and-such.

If one wanted to write up and submit such a thing, would that be done through the request tool, or...?

manipura

  • Posts: 1485
Re: Religion
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2010, 06:55:06 PM »
I know there is something in the documentation about commonly held superstitions.  Maybe it's in the General Information section?  I don't remember right now, but I know I've read it.  Personally I found it rather interesting...

Talia

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Re: Religion
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2010, 07:38:04 PM »
You mean the page titled Superstitions? ;)
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Erythil

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Re: Religion
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2010, 07:57:16 PM »
Looking at manipura I find myself wondering what zalanthan drow would be like.

Probably noble and kindhearted.

jriley

  • Posts: 233
Re: Religion
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2010, 11:39:11 PM »
Part of it may be that commoners in the city states are discouraged from openly speculating about the supernatural (both socially and by the authorities).

I disagree that commoners are discouraged from openly speculating about the supernatural.  I think that players discourage this, but only the ones who don't really understand the game, or have a bias against role-playing alongside religious characters. 

I think a better reason that commoners don't have a belief in an afterlife is because they're taught to feel thankful for living thirty years safely under the reign of their Lord, and that providing a few offspring to server the Lord constitutes spiritual fulfillment.  I think life is too harsh for the commoners to hope for anything more than reaching the age of thirty.

I don't think Nilaz and Drov can be discussed in this context without giving away IC info. Playing a drovian/nilazi for some time, or playing around PCs of those guilds might be somewhat helpful.


I hate to be a pill, but this has left me even more confused than before.  I think that the lesson to take away form this is that in the eyes of a commoner, Drov represents some kind of horrible shadow that they're meant to be afraid of.
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Qzzrbl

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Re: Religion
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2010, 02:54:00 AM »
In using "I'll send yeh to Drov/the Void." being used IG kinda supports the idea that many city-bound PCs don't believe in an afterlife.

Just think about it.

Drov = Shadows.... Darkness, perpetual not-seeing, it's more symbolic.... Like death sends you to a place that's like sleeping without dreams.... Just nothing.

The Void/Nilaz = The void... Absence, nothing, vacuum.... Where you go when you die-- nowhere.

I'd imagine many commoners have -some- sense of a spirit or soul.... I'm sure more than a few people have sat and contemplated their mortality, what their life is, etc., etc.

But they ultimately have in mind that there's no afterlife, they just dissipate and go nowhere.... Void/drov.... Associated with nowhere, to your average commoner, at least.

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Marshmellow

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Re: Religion
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2010, 06:36:45 AM »
I don't think Nilaz and Drov can be discussed in this context without giving away IC info. Playing a drovian/nilazi for some time, or playing around PCs of those guilds might be somewhat helpful.
I hate to be a pill, but this has left me even more confused than before.  I think that the lesson to take away form this is that in the eyes of a commoner, Drov represents some kind of horrible shadow that they're meant to be afraid of.
Why does that leave you confused?  As has already been said, most non-tribals have no real religion and they call killing someone sending someone to Drov because of the symbolism.  Drov isn't truly associated with death, just darkness and being unable to see... and when you're dead, you're unable to see.  People that have had near-death experiences describe it as the world that they can see fading away, as if they were losing the ability to perceive that world.  It works from an uneducated point-of-view.  For an educated point-of-view, however, you should play around Drovians and Nilazi and find out what they really mean in the context of the world.  That is all.
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Kol

  • Posts: 2774
Re: Religion
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2010, 10:38:05 AM »
To point out the obvious, as in most belief systems, a form of religion exists in zalanthas as much as our world, Religion is generally a loose belief system built around a set or group of stories contributied to one or more people or characters. History and human eveolution show these are usually taken from a specific region, people or race.
To point out a few of the most obvious, Nordic relegion, the gods of Thor, loki, and Odin, or Greek with gods such as Hades, god of death, or even the Roman pantheon.

All these relegious views base thier belief systems around the loose facts of human nature and makeup that sets aside anything we cannot explain and places it within the grasp of a higher power, giving it a name and saying there are reasons behind it we cannot explain. Why does the sky produce a sound like that? Oh, Thor is at his anvil,  or battaling in his father's name, with the heros of great battles, and that is the sound of his battle, and the strike of Raggnerok, his hammer.

In zalanthas, we explain these elements away with names, and attribute people skilled in them, and particularly gifted in thier use as 'Gicker's.

How does Whiria controll the winds, and air? Why Is Ruk asscociated with earth and stone? And why do BOTH sorcerer kings subjugate those born with these skills, and instead insist that they be worshipped?
I think at least in some obscure way, the priests of these old religions still exists in both city states, and nearly ALL tribals, in both the forms of druidic 'Priests' 'Gickers can be likend to actual fabled Druids, in the sense that they control a particular aspect of the elements. (I think this would be a widely known fact in Zalanthas that particular people display usage of particular traits, more so in the south)

And in the north, with the more versatile Bardic system, who are a more acceptable form of real life views of a 'preacher' or better, a Storyteller, or travelling minstrell, who were renowned for being payed to spread religious views, or spreading that which they belived in.

Tek, who most would see as less honourable would have subjugated his old, in order to enforce his own view, a tyrant in the excuction of it.

Muk, who most would see as the most honourable one, not to say in the least that even Muk should be called honourable, would have more than likley rather have bent his foe to his own use, and thus proven his superior tactical awareness (a trait that can be seen in Tuluki politics) which can explain as to why Bards are afforded such respect.

 
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Aaron Goulet

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Re: Religion
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2010, 10:56:24 AM »
Keep in mind while writing that most worship of the God-Kings (at least Tektolnes) is probably practiced out of fear rather than love:

Quote from: What You Know - Allanak
The life of an Allanaki citizen is one of strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, a nearly omnipotent ruler and His Templars watching your every move, and no place to hide except the burning wastelands outside the city gates. Highlord Tektolnes inspires a silent paranoia in all of his subjects, and thus has remained unchallenged during his multi-millenial reign.
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Re: Religion
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2010, 03:28:59 PM »
I threw up a rough draft of a religion doc in Player Collaboration.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39564.msg551956.html#new
Critique welcomed. Carry on.
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Kol

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Re: Religion
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2010, 03:43:53 PM »
I threw up a rough draft of a religion doc in Player Collaboration.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39564.msg551956.html#new
Critique welcomed. Carry on.

I fucking love it! good work so far man.
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