Author Topic: Roles that people have trouble with  (Read 19053 times)

X-D

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2010, 05:57:13 PM »
Oh, where to start.

Quote
Half-Giants - Don't talk to much.  Don't make jokes that other players are going to laugh at.  Occasional jokes hurt nothing, but pounding a few jokes in a row makes you into the goofy side-kick.  Don't be too useful.  Players should understand that they cannot rely upon your character without supervision.  If people begin to follow you, lead them into ruin.  If people begin to trust you, change sides.  Your character may likely have been beaten or abused by humans while you were still young and still learning your place in the world.  Your character may mistrust humans and may have an irrational fear of them.  Make agreements and then forget to honor them.  Spill people's secrets.  While you understand basic math, counting and cooking, these sorts of tasks absolutely test your mental abilities and it takes you much longer to do something like making a sandwich than a human would.  Don't plan anything.  Panic occaisionally and freak out.  Make irrational conclusions about your physical environment.  You do not understand planning, finance, politics or mechanics, and these things don't interest you.  You cannot follow adult human conversation.
If you want to make an elite soldier, a wealthy hunter or a ninja bodyguard, you're probably better-off playing a human.
Alright,  Dude, have you read all the racial RP docs of the races in question? And is this really your take on the matter? I mean really, Don't talk alot? Children and mentally handicapped people tend to talk CONSTANTLY.
Don't be too useful? Again, that depends on what your PC is being useful for and how well trained, the docs clearly state a HG can learn tasks and will repeat what works, sometimes to the exclusion of other things. A HG is PERFECTLY useful to many tasks. Moreso then maybe any other race. A HG does NOT know his place in the world, he is not capable of such abstract thought. Mistrust also requires Abstract forethought combined with memory...far beyond the mental capability of a HG. Crafting, Again, HGs learn in a step by step method, a HG can learn to make a sandwich and if he has done it enough times he will do it better then most anybody else...just don't ask him to change the recipe.
Quote
You do not understand planning, finance, politics or mechanics, and these things don't interest you.  You cannot follow adult human conversation.

Though the HG would not understand them, he would actually be GREATLY interested in them, specially if the people around him act as if they are interested.

Half-giants are not capable of understanding such things as love, hate, trust, mistrust etc, they don't understand honor, friendship or pretty much anything they cannot see, hear, taste, touch. They can feel them, they do not understand them. But they are great mimics, they will take on the mannerism and culture of the people around them, they will do it well. They are capable of SEEMING to keep up adult conversation, to the point of using the correct words at the correct times.


Quote
Dwarves -- Don't talk too much.  Don't engage in recreation.  You understand human politics, humor, conversation, and finance but these things don't interest you unless they have something to do specifically about your focus.  Humans really don't interest you unless they have something to do with your focus.  You don't change course easily.  Be prepared to waste lots of time pursuing courses of action that a human would immediately perceive as wastes of time or dead ends.  You lack diversity.  Diversity doesn't interest you.  You don't understand human popular culture unless it has something to do with your focus.  As long as you're pursuing your focus, it wouldn't bother you to be naked in public.  As long as you're pursuing your focus, it wouldn't bother you if bugs were crawling on your face.  You don't think that chocolate tastes good.  You don't have an opinion on chocolate.  You don't know who Lady Gaga is.  If you lived in a democracy, you don't vote.
If you want to make an elite soldier, a wealthy hunter or a ninja bodyguard, you're probably better-off playing a human.  Joining one of the game clans is likely out of character for you.

Alright, now, dwarven personality is 100% up to the player, so most of your post on the matter really should be removed. A dwarf has a focus, a dwarf never leaves his focus, a dwarf always thinks about his focus.

That all being said, A dwarf could talk nonstop, of course it would be about his focus most the time, a dwarf could refuse to talk at all...well, unless it is about his focus...a dwarf could talk constantly about anything BUT his focus, if his belief is that talking about it might harm his focus. Etc etc. You only lack diversity IF being diverse will not help your focus. A dwarf would have an opinion on chocolet, Unless in doing so it would harm the focus, a dwarf may do other things for fun that don't apply directly to focus, A dwarf may do other things for utility that do not apply directly to focus. Though he will not put much energy into it or do it for very long.

Now, If your Dwarf wants to be an elite warrior, that is likely his focus, Same for the rest of the examples, So, your best bet is to play a dwarf. The only time joining an in game clan would be out of char is if the dwarf knew ahead of time that it would somehow stop him from completing his focus.

Oh, And there is nothing at ALL in the docs saying a dwarf does not know how to have fun or is in any way against the idea. So, enjoy your recreation, just remember you have a focus to return to.
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AmandaGreathouse

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2010, 06:00:33 PM »
This isn't meant as a slam on dwarven players. It's not. There've only been about 5 dwarves I've particularly enjoyed roleplaying around since I started playing about 2.5 years ago. It feels, too often, like people feel that when playing a dwarf, you have an automatic license to:

1. Not use capitalization.
2. Not use punctuation.
3. Hoard. Every dwarf I've known very well IG has had issues with this.
4. Pursue things codedly to the exclusion of even simple emotes to denote anything about what you're doing.

While I understand that the roles you're playing are tailored around the one specific idea/goal that is your character's focus, it doesn't justify all of these things in nearly every dwarf.

Regarding HGs:

I've actually seen several HGs who were really, really well roleplayed, although it might be fun to see a few who put a higher premium on other things beside killing. As an aside, regarding your old (OLD) post, Moe, I think a half-giant linguist is a brilliant idea, with their mimicry. Another thing: I don't actually see the comic sidekick thing as prevalent as it's made out to seem, although I think that half-giants can really be quite funny, it seems most of it is through unwitting social missteps. What I -have- seen is a lot of people who play half-giants who speak very poorly. Poorly to the point of making me wonder who they were speaking with often in the past that they picked this up from. I believe malaprops would probably be the more apt choice in such situations, as opposed to, say, talking like tarzan. Or maybe getting 'a' and 'an' mixed up in context, etc, etc, etc.

Elves... I have seen the gamut on. Some are really well role-played, some are not. My opinions on elves are too long to go into in any depth here.
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boog

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2010, 06:01:08 PM »
I think your view on dwarves is a bit strict....

Drinking at the bar, socializing, making friends, etc., etc., etc.... All of those very well could help with the dwarve's focus.

All depends on the focus....

The way I read it is anyone not human or elf shouldn't be talking. Haha. ;)

Really, people can be stubborn and talk a lot. I can think of many examples.
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Cutthroat

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2010, 06:14:26 PM »
Quote from: jriley
Most people who play roles in Arm either want to be bad-assed, criminally-accomplished, successful crafters, socially important or to live a long time. Because of their coded-stat situation and the fact that human authorities, human criminals and human soldiers will never take them seriously, it's pretty safe to say that a city elf will never achieve any of this.  If you're going to play a city elf, you have to resign yourself to playing what most of us would view as a "roleplay only" role.  Personally, I've had a lot of fun playing an elven drunkard, an elven spice-head, an elven beggar and an elven spy.  Even then you cannot expect too live too long because someday the militia/templar PCs will just get too bored and decide to waste you.  If you can learn to enjoy this sort of role, then you can be happy with an elf.  If you cannot learn to enjoy this, then I agree that you're better off playing a human.

I came in here to say pretty much what X-D said, but I wanted to touch on this.

This seems a little more pessimistic than what actually is possible with a c-elf. There are organizations that are tolerant of elven employees, there are PC c-elf tribes in both major cities, and there are unofficial employment opportunities in organizations that don't officially hire elves, if the leader is smart. Maybe a long time ago this was true, but for the past few years there have been a handful of what I'd say were successful c-elves, and that's only the ones I know of. I think we don't often see successful elves because it's not a popular race choice, but it is very possible to for a patient player to play a good city-elf doing something that you would say a human would be better at doing.

Semper

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2010, 07:27:33 PM »
Quote
1. Not use capitalization.
2. Not use punctuation.

I think this is huge. I'm of the thought these days that no proper capitalization and punctuation is becoming almost an acceptable thing in the game. Does it really take that much effort to capitalize and put periods at the end of your sentences? Some situations I can understand, but -every- sentence becomes jarring.
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Reiloth

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2010, 08:38:39 PM »
Back on topic -- Isolated Magicker Roles. They're high karma for a reason.
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palomar

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2010, 07:58:06 AM »
In my experience and opinion, playing a Tuluki commoner can be difficult from the social side of things. Tuluk's society with its castes is very different to what most players are familiar with - somewhat similar to the difficulties of understanding and playing with a tribal mindset, I suppose. There are clear and very strict differences between the castes, but a lot of people seem to have difficulties taking into account the sometimes subtle (hah) differences in social status based on affiliation, heritage and reputation within the common caste. It's quite odd, really, as it reaches from the upper echelons of the Merchant Houses to the lowest of the low among free men and women. It's something I see being ignored or misinterpreted frequently enough to think that it's something people have trouble with.

a strange shadow

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2010, 09:15:50 AM »
I've always enjoyed a well-played half-giant.

Well played seems to be a giant that:
o doesn't understand complex and/or abstract ideas
o takes things very literally, unless they've been specifically taught not to at least once.
o mimics the people it looks up to.
o chooses one or two 'best friends' to mimic.
o is flighty and often unintentionally disloyal unless carefully brainwashed/handled by its 'friends'.
o speaks normally, but screws up words or puts them in the wrong order.

jhunter

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2010, 09:33:18 AM »
Oh, where to start.

Quote
Half-Giants - Don't talk to much.  Don't make jokes that other players are going to laugh at.  Occasional jokes hurt nothing, but pounding a few jokes in a row makes you into the goofy side-kick.  Don't be too useful.  Players should understand that they cannot rely upon your character without supervision.  If people begin to follow you, lead them into ruin.  If people begin to trust you, change sides.  Your character may likely have been beaten or abused by humans while you were still young and still learning your place in the world.  Your character may mistrust humans and may have an irrational fear of them.  Make agreements and then forget to honor them.  Spill people's secrets.  While you understand basic math, counting and cooking, these sorts of tasks absolutely test your mental abilities and it takes you much longer to do something like making a sandwich than a human would.  Don't plan anything.  Panic occaisionally and freak out.  Make irrational conclusions about your physical environment.  You do not understand planning, finance, politics or mechanics, and these things don't interest you.  You cannot follow adult human conversation.
If you want to make an elite soldier, a wealthy hunter or a ninja bodyguard, you're probably better-off playing a human.
Alright,  Dude, have you read all the racial RP docs of the races in question? And is this really your take on the matter? I mean really, Don't talk alot? Children and mentally handicapped people tend to talk CONSTANTLY.
Don't be too useful? Again, that depends on what your PC is being useful for and how well trained, the docs clearly state a HG can learn tasks and will repeat what works, sometimes to the exclusion of other things. A HG is PERFECTLY useful to many tasks. Moreso then maybe any other race. A HG does NOT know his place in the world, he is not capable of such abstract thought. Mistrust also requires Abstract forethought combined with memory...far beyond the mental capability of a HG. Crafting, Again, HGs learn in a step by step method, a HG can learn to make a sandwich and if he has done it enough times he will do it better then most anybody else...just don't ask him to change the recipe.
Quote
You do not understand planning, finance, politics or mechanics, and these things don't interest you.  You cannot follow adult human conversation.

Though the HG would not understand them, he would actually be GREATLY interested in them, specially if the people around him act as if they are interested.

Half-giants are not capable of understanding such things as love, hate, trust, mistrust etc, they don't understand honor, friendship or pretty much anything they cannot see, hear, taste, touch. They can feel them, they do not understand them. But they are great mimics, they will take on the mannerism and culture of the people around them, they will do it well. They are capable of SEEMING to keep up adult conversation, to the point of using the correct words at the correct times.


Quote
Dwarves -- Don't talk too much.  Don't engage in recreation.  You understand human politics, humor, conversation, and finance but these things don't interest you unless they have something to do specifically about your focus.  Humans really don't interest you unless they have something to do with your focus.  You don't change course easily.  Be prepared to waste lots of time pursuing courses of action that a human would immediately perceive as wastes of time or dead ends.  You lack diversity.  Diversity doesn't interest you.  You don't understand human popular culture unless it has something to do with your focus.  As long as you're pursuing your focus, it wouldn't bother you to be naked in public.  As long as you're pursuing your focus, it wouldn't bother you if bugs were crawling on your face.  You don't think that chocolate tastes good.  You don't have an opinion on chocolate.  You don't know who Lady Gaga is.  If you lived in a democracy, you don't vote.
If you want to make an elite soldier, a wealthy hunter or a ninja bodyguard, you're probably better-off playing a human.  Joining one of the game clans is likely out of character for you.

Alright, now, dwarven personality is 100% up to the player, so most of your post on the matter really should be removed. A dwarf has a focus, a dwarf never leaves his focus, a dwarf always thinks about his focus.

That all being said, A dwarf could talk nonstop, of course it would be about his focus most the time, a dwarf could refuse to talk at all...well, unless it is about his focus...a dwarf could talk constantly about anything BUT his focus, if his belief is that talking about it might harm his focus. Etc etc. You only lack diversity IF being diverse will not help your focus. A dwarf would have an opinion on chocolet, Unless in doing so it would harm the focus, a dwarf may do other things for fun that don't apply directly to focus, A dwarf may do other things for utility that do not apply directly to focus. Though he will not put much energy into it or do it for very long.

Now, If your Dwarf wants to be an elite warrior, that is likely his focus, Same for the rest of the examples, So, your best bet is to play a dwarf. The only time joining an in game clan would be out of char is if the dwarf knew ahead of time that it would somehow stop him from completing his focus.

Oh, And there is nothing at ALL in the docs saying a dwarf does not know how to have fun or is in any way against the idea. So, enjoy your recreation, just remember you have a focus to return to.

Pretty freakin' spot-on I'd say.

Synthesis

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2010, 12:29:10 PM »
Personally, I don't think dwarves should be quick-witted and talkative because they should be constantly embroiled in an inner dialogue regarding the consequences of any answer or response they give or don't give in social situations.

They should be somewhat reticent, because they should be worried to death about saying the wrong thing.  Even if you, the player, know that this reticence will ultimately be detrimental to the dwarf's focus, your character (the dwarf) cannot escape from his obsession and compulsion to think everything through as far as he or she is able to.

In much the same way all elves love to steal and are too prideful to ride, all dwarves should at least seem to outside observers to be rather slow and dull--maybe not because the dwarf is slow and dull, but because they are constantly involved in a game of grand strategy against the entire world, and it takes an inordinate amount of time to process all of those potential outcomes.  This is fundamental to the dwarven psyche. 

Even if a dwarf comes to the conclusion, "I need to go out drinking with my buddies and make them like me," when he goes out, he will be inescapably tangled in a web of unknowns and what to him may seem like catastrophic pitfalls.  The entire time he's out drinking, he'll be thinking about potential consequences:  what if I get too drunk and pass out and someone robs me?  What if I get too drunk and reveal my plans?  What if a templar comes in and I bow and puke a little on his shoes and he sends me to the Arena for the rest of my life and then I have to plan my escape and I'm going to need to train more if that happens because damn, just about everyone dies in the Arena and if I end up there I'm going to have to fight muls and maybe even a gaj and holy shit, that's not going to be good, maybe I can make friends with a mul when I get there and I can convince the mul to escape with me and then I'll have a mul buddy but I won't ever be able to return to 'nak but maybe that's okay, because maybe I can trade with somebody in Red Storm to get the gems and other materials I need to make this totally awesome codpiece that I need as the first part of the totally awesome suit of armor that I'm going to try to give to Tektolnes so he'll make me the first dwarven templar....A dwarf might be able to plan ahead to seem flippant about things if he's attempting to deceive, but he won't be able to put up that sort of charade for very long, because the compulsion to analyze and predict is ingrained in his psyche.

If you don't like playing dwarves that way, you're really just rolling the characters for the high strength stat.
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X-D

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2010, 01:00:09 PM »
Quote
If you don't like playing dwarves that way, you're really just rolling the characters for the high strength stat.

I'm not going to quote the entire post because I'm not in total disagreement on the matter. Playing your dwarf like that is fine. I do not, I cannot see them as some sort of frightened 10 year old girl worrying at any moment the sky might fall.

I do not agree with your final line though...as quoted.

I play dwarves that plan, they plan and they plan and they plan, everything to the finest detail. This is done, at least for the first focus, before I even enter them into chargen. They are not flighty, they do not worry, they are never afraid. The hard part for many people I think, at least with this style is that the dwarf will continue with his plan, he will not deviate from it. Other things happening around him that are not called for by the plan siply do not matter. That does not mean he does not notice, but if they are not part of the plan then they simply do not matter one way or another to his focus..

Another thing is, a dwarf knows he has a focus, he knows he might do this thing for his entire life, that is also part of the plan. Hell, if you wished, you could have many things be part of the plan that are not directly part of the focus. Even a dwarf with a focus to take over the world could have set aside a point in time in his plan to stop and have children.

In the end, there is only one rule to a dwarf in play, and that is what I posted before, Focus, focus, focus, but how you wish to play that out and the personality to go with it is totally up to you.

Anything anybody else says on the matter is simply, at best, a suggestion or them stating preference.

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jhunter

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2010, 01:17:30 PM »
While Synthesis has posted -one- correct way to play a dwarf, I disagree that it's the -only- correct way. As X-D said, the only 100% set in stone thing is FOCUS. Otherwise, they can all have different flaws and personalities, making them go about things completely differently from other dwarves but -always- surrounding their focus.

Prodikus

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2010, 02:08:06 PM »
In my experience and opinion, playing a Tuluki commoner can be difficult from the social side of things. Tuluk's society with its castes is very different to what most players are familiar with - somewhat similar to the difficulties of understanding and playing with a tribal mindset, I suppose. There are clear and very strict differences between the castes, but a lot of people seem to have difficulties taking into account the sometimes subtle (hah) differences in social status based on affiliation, heritage and reputation within the common caste. It's quite odd, really, as it reaches from the upper echelons of the Merchant Houses to the lowest of the low among free men and women. It's something I see being ignored or misinterpreted frequently enough to think that it's something people have trouble with.

I enjoy playing characters of lower social status in Tuluk, and have experienced exactly this. When there's a difference in status, PCs of higher rank often do one of two things:

1) They insist you call them by their first name and treat them as just another bloke. It's difficult to maintain a sense of social distance when so many PCs have a personality that demands they ignore social distinctions. Chosen are friends with Commoners, but neither forget the difference between them; the same should go for a grebber and a Senior Merchant.

2) They decide to express the difference in social status by pointedly ignoring or snubbing any Commoner below them. In a city where nobles regularly work shoulder to shoulder with commoners (at least for the photo op...), this makes absolutely no sense. Power in Tuluk is (ostensibly) based on love of the people; any organization or representative of an organization should wield social standing in such a way as to express and build upon this love, putting on a face of deep concern and interest in the well-being of others. Ignoring someone because you can < giving someone just enough attention that you might call on the friendship and use him later.

How I would like to see social status between the Commoners played out:
Quote
If you are well-liked and respected within your caste, it is much easier to get things accomplished. Conversely, making a bad name for yourself can easily result in avoidance and hostility (in more extreme cases).

1) The higher your social status, the more likely those above and below you should be to go along with what you want. If someone is senior to you, acquiesce to their will and eagerly seek to gain their favor. You don't have to like them or everything they do, but the only way you should oppose them is through someone else of equal or great social standing.

2) Avoidance and hostility shouldn't be the default. If someone is below you, be patronizing before arrogant. Every caste and every rung on the social tree has a use... don't ignore or abuse someone until they've demonstrated they're of no use to you. Instead, eagerly pay them mind, but carefully remind them of how much you're condescending in talking with them: if they're a good Tuluki, they'll appreciate you for your magnanimity and more perfectly align themselves with your will.

At least, that is how I see it.

Aaron Goulet

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2010, 02:17:02 PM »
I've only played one dwarf, but that dwarf earned me karma, so I think it's safe to say that dwarves can be talkative, social, and interesting so long as it drives them closer to their focus.

My dwarf, a merchant/stonecarver, had a pretty typical focus: Become the best stonecarver in the world.  He spent a lot of time talking about stonecarving, finding sellers and buyers for stone, and looking for other stonecarvers to compete against.  Once he was an accomplished crafter, he even joined House Oash under the promise that he would be given the materials to undertake his most challenging work yet: A giant marble statue for House Oash.  He endured lots of humiliation at the hands of his noble (who regarded my character as his pet) just to see this through.

Sadly, I retired him at 48 days played, so he never got to finish his work.  The point though, is that I think most people forget that dwarves can be social, as a lot of foci can be accomplished easier with a good network of helpers/patrons/friends/whatever.  They may also take pride in their work, chatting incessantly about how they're going to do this or that.
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Synthesis

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2010, 02:55:14 PM »
If you want to play a chatty social butterfly, play a human.

I just don't see the point in playing a dwarf at all if you're not going to play its obsessive/compulsive personality to the hilt...what is the point of playing a dwarf character if the personality you give it is functionally indistinguishable from an average human?  Again, unless you're really just shooting for the high strength stat.
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Semper

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2010, 03:02:46 PM »
Lot's of good points. Can people point their ideas about this role or that to the documents that back it up though? I check back with the documents, and some of what you people say is just contrary to what I read, or non-existent.
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X-D

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2010, 04:00:56 PM »
In reply to Synth, taken directly from the docs, the VERY first part on dwarf focus/rp.

Quote
The Dwarven Focus

Dwarves can show great variability in their personality - indeed, almost as much as humans. But one thing that they all share is: The Dwarven Focus.


Next, and just as important
Quote
What is the Dwarven Focus?

It is a single, overwhelming goal which motivates every thought and action in a dwarf's life. A dwarf may do things unrelated to the focus - but it will always be at the back of their head, nagging them. A dwarf will never do something contrary to their focus, ever.

And again, later in the docs.

Quote
While you are free to design the personality of your dwarf with as much liberty as you would if they were human, you have to keep in mind the focus - how it interacts with the personality of your dwarf, and how their personality affects the focus.

And nowhere in the docs does it say dwarves have obsessive/compulsive disorder.


« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 04:08:38 PM by X-D »
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Synthesis

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2010, 04:49:56 PM »
The dwarven focus is very similar to what OCD or addiction would be for humans.

And sure, the docs give you all this leeway to interpret that.  But again, I have to ask:  what is the point of playing a dwarf who is basically just a very strong human?  I submit the only reasonable answer to this question is to reap the benefits of the high strength stat without having to suffer any real negative consequences for it.
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Thunkkin

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2010, 05:00:26 PM »
The dwarven focus is very similar to what OCD or addiction would be for humans.

And sure, the docs give you all this leeway to interpret that.  But again, I have to ask:  what is the point of playing a dwarf who is basically just a very strong human?  I submit the only reasonable answer to this question is to reap the benefits of the high strength stat without having to suffer any real negative consequences for it.

What is the point of playing a human who is basically a very weak, unfocused dwarf?  I submit the only reasonable answer to this question is to reap the benefits of well-balanced stats.  As you confirm, the docs give leeway to interpret this issue in multiple ways, so clearly any interpretation other than your own must be twinking. 
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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2010, 05:10:21 PM »
Not even close, OCD...have you ever met somebody who is truly OCD? As for addiction.....that is a bit closer, more like a functioning addict.

But they have personalities, Some are quiet, some are loud, some talk about everything cept the addiction, some talk about nothing but the addiction, some have families, some do not...wait a minute, I already posted this somewhere.

As for playing one so you can have a human with a high str roll...Heh, considering what you lose stat wise and other dwarf drawbacks,  You would do much better to play a human and order str first. IF that was indeed the reason for playing a dwarf to begin with.
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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2010, 05:11:25 PM »
The dwarven focus is very similar to what OCD or addiction would be for humans.

And sure, the docs give you all this leeway to interpret that.  But again, I have to ask:  what is the point of playing a dwarf who is basically just a very strong human?  I submit the only reasonable answer to this question is to reap the benefits of the high strength stat without having to suffer any real negative consequences for it.

Yeah, this is what I'm getting at.  I didn't want to accuse people who play dwarves of being twinks because I think that's a very serious accusation, but certainly I question the role-play of people who play dwarves but ignore the OCD aspect of them.  

Also I don't think that human PCs pick on dwarves enough.  Most of us are learning to pick on elves, witches, half-breeds, tribals, and foreigners, but we let half-giants and dwarves off the hook.  

I do want to point out that I actually agree with most of the people who are posting here that think they are disagreeing with me.  I don't believe that there is only one correct way to play a dwarf, I think that there are 100 correct ways.  Doubtlessly there is a lot of depth and subtlety to some of the dwarves that I've interacted with that only the staff have insight into, and that is my reason for not wanting to pick on individual players or to grief anybody.  You know your character better than i do.  

What I do feel certain of is that many players base their dwarven character on other dwarven characters they've seen (many of whom are not played correctly) and just flat out ignore the docs.

I don't think that this represents a crisis, merely something that people should take into account if they are considering making a dwarven character.  The docs are short and deliberately leave things open to interpretation.  They are still worth reading.

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2010, 05:13:25 PM »
That almost negates the whole point of this thread. Things are left wide to interpretation so that we can interpret them as we want. :P So, if someone wants to play a chatty dwarf, let them. They still HAVE to submit a focus at generation, right? That's that, then! ;)
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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2010, 05:21:07 PM »
The dwarven focus is very similar to what OCD or addiction would be for humans.

And sure, the docs give you all this leeway to interpret that.  But again, I have to ask:  what is the point of playing a dwarf who is basically just a very strong human?  I submit the only reasonable answer to this question is to reap the benefits of the high strength stat without having to suffer any real negative consequences for it.

What is the point of playing a human who is basically a very weak, unfocused dwarf?  I submit the only reasonable answer to this question is to reap the benefits of well-balanced stats.  As you confirm, the docs give leeway to interpret this issue in multiple ways, so clearly any interpretation other than your own must be twinking.  

Humans aren't supposed to have any especially unique racial attributes.  If you want to be a normal guy, play a human.  That's the whole point of humans:  they're the norm.

Dwarves, elves, muls, half-giants, mantis, gith, and halflings all have psychologies that are fundamentally different than a human's.  If you play one of them, your first priority should be to play that psychology.  If you deliberately write a background to minimize the potential negative consequences of that psychology, you're simply engaging in min-maxing behavior.

I'm not saying that every dwarf needs to be completely inept in social situations, but the docs make it clear that they aren't naturally witty, devious, or flexible (and this is supposed to be reflected by their lower wisdom).

Also:
Obsessive–compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) is a personality disorder which involves an obsession with perfection, rules, and organization. People with OCPD may feel anxious when they perceive that things are not right. This can lead to routines and rules for ways of doing things, whether for themselves or their families.

The primary symptoms of OCPD are a preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, and schedules; being very rigid and inflexible in their beliefs; showing perfectionism that interferes with completing a task; excessive focus on being productive with their time; being very conscientious; having inflexible morality, ethics, or values; hoarding items that may no longer have value; and a reluctance to trust a work assignment or task to someone else for fear that their standards will not be met.

And

Quote from: Current Diagnosis and Treatment: Psychiatry
   

Obsessive–Compulsive Personality Disorder
Essentials of Diagnosis
DSM-IV-TR Diagnostic Criteria

   1. A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:
          *is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost

          *shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)

          *is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)

          *is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)

          *is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value

          *is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things

          *adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes

          *shows rigidity and stubbornness

That sounds an awful lot like what I'd expect from the average dwarf.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 05:29:32 PM by Synthesis »
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jriley

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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2010, 05:24:55 PM »
This seems a little more pessimistic than what actually is possible with a c-elf.

Sorry about that.  Can you elaborate?  I was just friendly advice to our bro who was complaining about having trouble with c-elves.  Basically I went through the same thing he's going through.

I mean when I tried to play a c-elf in the Byn...I had trouble participating in desert training because I can't ride a kank.  And then the staff made a questionable rule banning elves from riding a wagon, which prevented me from participating on missions at all.  In my mind this locked the role of the elf-soldier to just being a gate guard. 

How were you able to make the role of the urban elf work for you?


In my experience and opinion, playing a Tuluki commoner can be difficult from the social side of things. Tuluk's society with its castes is very different to what most players are familiar with - somewhat similar to the difficulties of understanding and playing with a tribal mindset, I suppose. There are clear and very strict differences between the castes, but a lot of people seem to have difficulties taking into account the sometimes subtle (hah) differences in social status based on affiliation, heritage and reputation within the common caste. It's quite odd, really, as it reaches from the upper echelons of the Merchant Houses to the lowest of the low among free men and women. It's something I see being ignored or misinterpreted frequently enough to think that it's something people have trouble with.


Argh!  I had no idea.  I'm probably one of the people who is doing it wrong.  Are you allowed to elaborate?





Oh yeah, and I thought of a couple of other roles that players, younger players especially, seem to struggle with.

Bad-asses - When some people attempt to play bad-assed characters, then end up playing bullies.  I actually like having a lot of mean bullies running around in game but I think a lot of people aren't doing this on purpose.
Crime Lords - A lot of players who are trying to play the role of the crime lord end up being far far too confrontational and brash around non-criminals, junior-criminals and average-joes.  However in order to achieve recognition from law-enforcement, rival criminals and business entrepeneurs, a certain amount of regal is necessary.
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Re: Roles that people have trouble with
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2010, 05:35:13 PM »
Yeah, the "no city-elves on wagons or skimmers" rule is just stupid.

Consistency is one thing, but when it overlaps into the realm of "now you're being a dick," that's where I draw the line.
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Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.