Author Topic: Economy  (Read 20284 times)

netflix

  • Posts: 670
Economy
« on: April 10, 2010, 06:23:08 PM »
There's one thing I've noticed. That I'm sure most people have noticed, and that is the sorta twisted state of the economy when you're talking clanned vs independent.

Now, being as vague as possible here... It seems silly that in 1-2 rl day an average, not even very old, independent, can make enough coin to equal the pay, food, water and place to stay that your average clanned PC makes in 14 days.

And as for the inevitable argument that being independent is more dangerous, well, many clanned jobs are just as dangerous, and still earn the PC far, far, far less. And there are multiple rather safe independent jobs, which still pay far, far, far more then clanned jobs. To the point that it seems to be hurting many of the games clans recruitment efforts.

Should independent work be less profitable?

Should clanned individuals make more pay?

Discuss.
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Synthesis

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Re: Economy
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 06:28:49 PM »
Handle it IC.  Feel like your PC is getting stiffed? Tell your boss to "show me the money."

That being said, most clans allow you to do crafting work on the side, as long as it doesn't interfere with your regular duties.  I had a Salarri guard/hunter who was a subclass weapon crafter, and I made huge amounts of 'sid crafting things for the House in my spare time, because crafting is tedious as fuck, and the Agents don't want to have to do all that shit themselves.

If you didn't pick a crafting subclass:  tough beans.  You're unskilled labor, chum.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 06:31:54 PM by Synthesis »
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RogueGunslinger

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Re: Economy
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 06:39:08 PM »
I think it's actually just about right in terms of playability.

food-water-sleeping place-little 'sid or just lot's of sid for food, water, and a sleeping place.

In terms of playability I think it's balanced just right. However, it's not very realistic. When you think about the world, it shouldn't be balanced. Indies should be hard-working oft-suffering people. Where as working for a House should be the coziest you can ever get without being of noble blood.

Sinna

  • Posts: 140
Re: Economy
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 06:47:27 PM »
In a clan you get respect, mostly trstworthy friends and a safe place to store you greb.
"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."

netflix

  • Posts: 670
Re: Economy
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 06:48:07 PM »
That being said, most clans allow you to do crafting work on the side, as long as it doesn't interfere with your regular duties.

From experience, while that is true in some cases, it's not in the majority.
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     "You put jam in your peenee hole to keep from making baby juice?"

WWYD

  • Posts: 988
Re: Economy
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 09:53:47 PM »
I've always found that the independent PCs making the utterly incredible amounts of money are the ones who don't seem to do much else.

I sort of agree, though, in a way, but I think it's a problem in general with the way things are priced.

netflix

  • Posts: 670
Re: Economy
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 10:05:43 PM »
To give a recent example...

During the course of a conversation, one maybe week (rl) old PC was going on about how they earned enough in a few days to buy a real nice set of higher end armor and weaponry. And another much older PC, in a rather high rank in a clan, was complaining about how they couldn't even afford to buy a new sword.
Squinting at the such-and-such dwarf, the so-and-so woman asks, in sirihish:
     "You put jam in your peenee hole to keep from making baby juice?"

Sinna

  • Posts: 140
Re: Economy
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2010, 10:07:15 PM »
I also have to ask are these indies just grebbing all day long, every day? Are they buying liquor in the taverns?  Are there lazy grebber characters?

I've never made any coin as an indy because - well - my characters spend it and sometimes don't feel like grebbing and don't always sell at the very best they can.  

I don't know.  I don't mean to judge others, but if you're a stupendiously rich indy - ask how you play.
"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7975
Re: Economy
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 10:18:00 PM »
It's not really that difficult to be a -social- indie, and still make ridiculous amounts of coin. You just need to have a lot of time to play. What I mean, is that the average Armer who spends 2 hours a day playing, and actually spends time with their family on weekends, isn't likely to amass the magnitude of wealth as someone who can play from work, plus plays at night, and plays on weekends, 5-8 hours every RL day. A social character can only sit at the bar so long, before the player says, "okay that was fun..but what about my SKILLS?"

A crafter PC who forages their own raw materials can get fairly wealthy in very little time, and still be an interesting, fully fleshed-out, well RP'ed character. But, oftentimes, with this payoff comes risk. A crafter PC working for a Merchant House that provides all their raw materials, not only has no risk, but also has no expense. There's no stable fees, no storage (apartment) fees, no cost for tools. They won't earn as much, at least at first. But they also don't have to worry about getting lost in a storm or being raided while looking for that next shard of obsidian.
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AmandaGreathouse

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Re: Economy
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 10:19:47 PM »
I've found that while some of the grebbing jobs pay a lot, it's often leaned toward people that know things IC. Such as with grebbing (thing) in (place). You sell (stuff) to (person), but never the (one thing), you sell that to (someone else), and it leaves you making a lot more. But beyond that, that specific grebbing job 'does' pay 150 - 450 sid/day if you know that... but if you don't... you're looking at 60-120 sid /day just in water costs... and only making 150-250 sid/day. And that's on days when it's not storming. So... meh. You're always going to find people that game the system and have insane amounts of coin. And it's usually the same people who wouldn't EVER want the crafting recipes list published... but have the entire list of them on an excel file and make 5-10k per rl week selling 'rare' or 'expensive' items to shops. It's only hurting newbies. (Yes, that last sentence was half-sarcastic).
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Sinna

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Re: Economy
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 10:22:23 PM »
You're probably right Lizzy. This is the "WOW" problem on Arm.  It is also why I used to buy gold on WOW because, well, I didn't have all that time to play but wanted cool stuff.  And my money was worth less than my time.

Suggested solutions:  1. More bandits to curb those wealthy indies (if this  even a real problem, permadeath is nice)
                               2. There is no two.


"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Economy
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 10:26:56 PM »
I also have to ask are these indies just grebbing all day long, every day? Are they buying liquor in the taverns?  Are there lazy grebber characters?

I've never made any coin as an indy because - well - my characters spend it and sometimes don't feel like grebbing and don't always sell at the very best they can.  

I don't know.  I don't mean to judge others, but if you're a stupendiously rich indy - ask how you play.

Most wealthy indies are a fighting class with a crafting subclass.  They don't have haggle, so they can't buy low and sell high like merchants, and they fail their crafts a lot, but they get their raw materials for only the cost of stabling fees and the food and water they burn out in the desert (which is typically a paltry cost, in comparison to the profit potential).

It's not really that difficult to be a -social- indie, and still make ridiculous amounts of coin. You just need to have a lot of time to play. What I mean, is that the average Armer who spends 2 hours a day playing, and actually spends time with their family on weekends, isn't likely to amass the magnitude of wealth as someone who can play from work, plus plays at night, and plays on weekends, 5-8 hours every RL day. A social character can only sit at the bar so long, before the player says, "okay that was fun..but what about my SKILLS?"


I've had merchants who could've easily turned over greater than 5k in less than a RL hour, crafting times included.  You don't need to have high play times at all.  If you want to be -social-, you definitely need higher playtimes, though, because I've found that people typically just kind of forget about you unless you're on every day.

You're probably right Lizzy. This is the "WOW" problem on Arm.  It is also why I used to buy gold on WOW because, well, I didn't have all that time to play but wanted cool stuff.  And my money was worth less than my time.

Suggested solutions:  1. More bandits to curb those wealthy indies (if this  even a real problem, permadeath is nice)
                               2. There is no two.




Bandits won't curb smart indies at all.  When you can make a 160 'sid dagger out of shit you just found lying on the ground,  you can drop thousands of 'sid at a time to your local bandit(s) and still be banking mad loot.  Even better, just pay newbs in your zone to go and forage the stuff for you, and pay them well.  They won't do it for very long, because eventually newbies get better jobs, but almost everyone needs some extra 'sid to buy starting gear, and thanks to Armageddon's gritty harshness, there is an endless supply of newbs to go out and get stuff for you, so you don't have to worry about the bandits at all.
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Malken

  • Posts: 9111
Re: Economy
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2010, 10:31:11 PM »
Oh, man, attempting to fix the economy would be like playing Jenga..

Armageddon is a very static world, when it comes to the economy.. Once you learn how to make 'sids, it becomes very easy to use the same technique character after character.. The prices paid are always the same, and the 'sources' of incomes always 'pop' in the same room, in the same area. There's no, say, random obsidian deposit pop, it's always in the same room. There's always a tree to cut down if the room says there are trees to cut down. There's always salt to be found, etc..

I think a solution, and it's been proposed before, would be to remove the 5 limits per shop, and instead lowering the price paid for an item the more the shopkeeper has of said item.

A silky dress would be bought for 200 'sids at first, but if no one buys them, and the shopkeeper has 50 of them, next time he'll only be willing to pay 20 'sids for it.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
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But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
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Sinna

  • Posts: 140
Re: Economy
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 10:39:22 PM »
Another solution would be to RP that it takes a IC couple of days to make a 160 sid dagger? 
"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."

Malken

  • Posts: 9111
Re: Economy
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 10:40:49 PM »
Another solution would be to RP that it takes a IC couple of days to make a 160 sid dagger? 


You're asking a lot, m'lady.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7975
Re: Economy
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 11:02:22 PM »
RPing that it takes a couple of days to make a dagger is pretty pointless, if someone only -has- two hours to play at a time. That would mean, they'd log in, attempt to make a dagger. At the end of the 2 hours, they'd actually type "craft bone into dagger" and hope they succeed, and then they'd log out.

Two hours of roleplaying making a dagger..it takes 15 minutes for a blacksmith to forge a dagger out of iron. Why in the world would it take 2 game-days to whittle a piece of wood? And more, why would anyone want to spend 2 hours roleplaying it?
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
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Sinna

  • Posts: 140
Re: Economy
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 11:12:59 PM »
I assume a 160sid dagger is more than a bit of wood.  If it's not we have two things we can do:

1. Ask the immortals to fix the obviously broken economy  <--- not going to work
2. RP that it takes a long time to craft something with care that will net us 160sids.


Is it asking a lot?  Yes.  Would I do it, probably not.  But then, I rarely have a non-special-app character with more than a few hundred sid at any one time.
"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7975
Re: Economy
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 11:26:49 PM »
Totally missing the point Sinna. It has nothing to do with whether a specific dagger is worth more than 160 sids. It's that there are items in the game that are worth -significantly- more than that, and you don't have to be the one who makes them, and ANYONE who gets their hands on these items, which may or may not be common, or rare..can very easily and quickly get rich.

There are things that are very common, but made out of things "here" that sell for a lot "there." And they're lightweight enough, that if you made and/or acquired only three of them "here" and brought them "there" to sell, you would make more sids in that two hours of roleplaying, than your character would normally earn in a game-year working for a monthly salary.

Now imagine doing that only twice every RL week. Just twice. Out of 7 days..out of maybe 25 hours of game play, including weekends..you spend 4 of that 25 hours acquiring three things that are easy/cheap/free to acquire, and selling them for a whole lot wherever they are valued.

You now have more sids in the bank, after a RL month, than most nobles get for their stipend.

It's not that the economy is "broken" - it isn't that people aren't appropriately roleplaying. It isn't that people are twinking. It's just the nature of economy. It works that way in real life too. I can easily get 30 Percosetts from my doctor, three times a year. I only pay $5 for them because my health insurance covers it with a co-pay. I can then sell those Percosetts on the black market for $5 per pill. That's $150 on a 5-buck investment, and I can earn it inside of 2 hours. Is the Percosett economy broken? Of course not. It's a seller's market, that's all. Supply and demand. I have more access to something than you do, and you want it.

Yes, there is definitely room for improvement in the economy system of Armageddon. But suggesting that everyone just magickally agree to roleplay a more balanced economy isn't the way to go about it.

Personally I like Malken's idea. Though I'd rather see it be a personal sales limit than a mass sales limit. In other words, *I* can sell anythign to any shop, in any quantity. But my -first- item will fetch me max price, and each subsequent item will fetch me less and less until I'm getting 0 sids per item. And, each -other- person who tries to sell to an NPC, has the same experience.

But the resale price, would remain high. So this would encourage people to spend more time selling to other PCs, while still allowing people who don't have any PCs to sell to, the opportunity to earn food and water and a little profit to enjoy themselves.
And it would allow buyers the opportunity to buy something that the PCs might normally have, though they'd have to pay a premium to get it from an NPC.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
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Delstro

  • Posts: 1296
Re: Economy
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 11:52:49 PM »
When merchants, nobles, and templars deal with commoners, they need to know:

Independents make 10x the coin, and should be charged 10x the price.
Clannies make 150 coins every two weeks? Templars should charge the house fines.
Merchant specially, should give tips/bonuses/free money to their underlings whenever they charge and independent 10x the price.

Why are you charging that price?

More than likely, that independent will never buy something from you again, so you need to milk them for every tear they can produce.
> forage artifacts

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Sinna

  • Posts: 140
Re: Economy
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2010, 12:01:52 AM »
Is it really true that in one RL week, without spam foraging / crafting you can make 10k in sids?
If this is true, it makes me very sad because it violates the concept of a gritty and dark world.

 :'(
"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."

Malken

  • Posts: 9111
Re: Economy
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 12:12:10 AM »
Is it really true that in one RL week, without spam foraging / crafting you can make 10k in sids?
If this is true, it makes me very sad because it violates the concept of a gritty and dark world.

 :'(

I doubt it's possible anymore.. Trust me, all the current IC events have made making a fortune the easy way a thing of the past.

It is still possible to make a decent-to-above average amount of coin, but nothing like you could in the past (and it's a lot more dangerous, as well) ... If the Staff keeps it up, all of my old tricks will be ruined in the near future  :'(

Oh, and trust me, the Imms WILL start asking question if you have a small fortune in your bank account and you aren't a very long-lived character.

There's nothing scarier than Nessalin appearing out of nowhere and asking you how you've managed to make X amount of coin.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Economy
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 01:14:21 AM »
Players who are crying about 'sids don't understand how Zalanthan society works, or really how the game works.

Coins, like skills, will only get you so far.  If it's easy for you to make them, guess what:  it's probably easy for everyone else to make them, too.  You might be able to drop a 5k 'sid bribe...but it will only be useful against newbs.  Just like having good combat skills by yourself is generally only useful against newbs.

Coins can't buy you friends who won't sell you out to the next highest bidder.  Coins can only buy you stupid shit from NPCs that make your character -look- like a badass.

The only things that matter, really, in terms of raw power, are relationships with social elements that are supposed to be powerful, according to the documentation.  E.g. templars, nobles, GMHs if you're in the city, or whatever d-elf tribe claims the current zone you're riding through.  There is no amount of coin that will save you if a templar -really- doesn't like you.  There is really no amount of coin that can compensate for favors from nobility, even if the actual noble PC doesn't have two 'sid to rub together.

In other words:  boasting about coins is idle bragging.  Not having them is great:  it gives your character something to strive for.  Instead of bitching about how everyone else has it so easy, GET A PIECE OF THAT PIE IN-CHARACTER.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Sinna

  • Posts: 140
Re: Economy
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 01:26:32 AM »
But Synth - imagine you're a noble and you decide to have a competition - suddenly I have to wonder if a 1 large prize even worth it to most _players_ or would they rather be out ther grebbing salt?
 
Suddenly half a Jr noble's monthly stipend is a wussy bribe?  Is that so?   ???
"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: Economy
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 01:36:09 AM »
But Synth - imagine you're a noble and you decide to have a competition - suddenly I have to wonder if a 1 large prize even worth it to most _players_ or would they rather be out ther grebbing salt?
 
Suddenly half a Jr noble's monthly stipend is a wussy bribe?  Is that so?   ???

So don't offer money.  If it's a fighting competition, offer a starting honorary ranked position in the House Guard to the winner.  If you're an Oashi, make the prize a keg of the ultra-rare shit that only nobility can even attempt to purchase.  If you're a Kuraci, offer a brick of the high-grade Hydroblaster spice that will fucking blow your mind.  Make a contract with a Salarri merchant and have one of their mastercrafters create a one-of-a-kind unique weapon specifically for the competition, and offer FAVORS and ACCESS TO POWER in return instead of coins, which any halfway decent Salarri doesn't fucking need anyway.

You can make it work, seriously.  Crying on the GDB doesn't solve anything.
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Sinna

  • Posts: 140
Re: Economy
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 01:47:58 AM »
Who's crying?  I'm happy playing the way I play  and permadeath does fine in moderating the wealthy.  I just don't think it makes sense to have a game that says shit is rough when shit isn't that rough after all.  

It's sorta like playing a game in which you say water is rare when it plainly isn't.  Oh. Wait.

Edit to add:

Your rewards for competition sound great Synth except that this is a desolute and ruined world.  Why should I give away ultra mind blowing spice when I half a brick of the regular shit should be priceless?  Aren't we just contributing to the runaway economy problem?
 
Keep in mind, I'm not bitching (I really am not invested in this) I'm just curious how to solve a perceived problem.  This is one of the reasons I love the Byn and "real" rinthy characters - because they are playing the gritty world that we read about on the website - the one where a chipped dagger is damn nice.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 01:54:09 AM by Sinna »
"When it is dark enough, you can see the stars."