Author Topic: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth  (Read 7261 times)

deviant storm

  • Posts: 1134
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2009, 02:01:18 PM »
The look command is an exchange in information. 

You give me your main description and visible equipment so that I can make a determination for how my character might want to react to your physical appearance, possible mutations, visible tattoos or scars, choice of dress, obvious clan trappings, foreign or domestic items, and the state of your being.

I give you an indication that my character is being actively played, that I have a cursory interest in your character, and that I might be interested in some kind of interaction so that you can make a determination on whether you want to check me out in return, whether your character wants to make a response, pursue some interaction, or ignore me altogether.

What both sides choose to do with this information is entirely up to them, but I think it's important that the information continues to be passed -- whether it's handling messages that are IC, OOC, or both.

-LoD

Exactly. It's just part of the game. I look at everyone, hooded or not. They might have changed clothes since I last saw them. They might be new. They might be someone I need icly, to talk to. It happens. I'm not going to stop looking at PCs I'm in this game to rp with other players. Hello, what the fuck is wrong with looking at you as a possible prelude to rp?

This just seems...really odd to be someone's pet peeve. And I like the look echo as it is.
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Delstro

  • Posts: 1296
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2009, 02:51:23 PM »
I was once traveling through the desert with a group of bynners and some gickers. I didn't look at them until half way through the mission. One of those mother fuckers were all gickered up in gickery way. I missed so many opportunities to be fearful crazy and scared because I didn't look at them. I can't just start playing different now. It wouldn't make sense. Look = good.
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Jenred

  • Posts: 497
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2009, 03:04:13 PM »
I know that I -have- had a character killed/attacked for looking at another character and, because I was new, did not know appropriate actions to be taken, or that looking at someone NEEDED follow up actions.

And usually, in multi-player games, an experience that has happened to one person is not a unique and sole-experienced thing. If I've had a character killed/attacked for looking at another PC, then I'm sure others have too.

I've also seen this happen (which is very similar to my experience, but mine was with a noble):

Code: [Select]
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The tall muscular man moves east.
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The tall muscular man moves east.
The red robed templar has arrived from the north.
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The tall muscular man looks at the red-robed templar.
The red-robed templar looks at the tall muscular man -blah blah blah lengthy look emote filled with distaste and scorn-.
The red-robed templar says to the tall muscular man: What do you think you are looking at scum.
The tall muscular man moves east.
The tall muscular man has arrived from the east.
The red robed templar issues an order to a human soldier.
Human soldier subdues the tall muscular man despite his attempts to get away.

It was apparent he was new, just not to the templar, who missed the context of the situation. A received look was perceived as something more then a look. Just because the one echo you receive is of a PC looking at you, doesn't mean NPCs, VNPCs, and other PCs are not.

Which is why I posted earlier I'm in favor of the look echo being removed.
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Bogre

  • Posts: 3321
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2009, 05:04:13 PM »
The look command is an exchange in information. 

You give me your main description and visible equipment so that I can make a determination for how my character might want to react to your physical appearance, possible mutations, visible tattoos or scars, choice of dress, obvious clan trappings, foreign or domestic items, and the state of your being.

I give you an indication that my character is being actively played, that I have a cursory interest in your character, and that I might be interested in some kind of interaction so that you can make a determination on whether you want to check me out in return, whether your character wants to make a response, pursue some interaction, or ignore me altogether.

What both sides choose to do with this information is entirely up to them, but I think it's important that the information continues to be passed -- whether it's handling messages that are IC, OOC, or both.

-LoD

exactly what i was trying to say
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Versu

  • Posts: 97
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2009, 12:30:19 AM »
In reference to the unseen crowd situation.

What really pissed me off at first, was how the templarate would pick me out of a crowd and go "HEY! Why are you creeping around like a serial killer! Stop or die!"..... which is bullshit, cause the command echo tells me quick clearly, I'm Blending in, not skuling creaping or slinking, I'm looking so damn normal you don't notice me!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 12:32:30 AM by Versu »

hyzhenhok

  • Posts: 1664
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2009, 01:30:38 AM »
I know that I -have- had a character killed/attacked for looking at another character and, because I was new, did not know appropriate actions to be taken, or that looking at someone NEEDED follow up actions.

And usually, in multi-player games, an experience that has happened to one person is not a unique and sole-experienced thing. If I've had a character killed/attacked for looking at another PC, then I'm sure others have too.

I've also seen this happen (which is very similar to my experience, but mine was with a noble):

Code: [Select]
example
It was apparent he was new, just not to the templar, who missed the context of the situation. A received look was perceived as something more then a look. Just because the one echo you receive is of a PC looking at you, doesn't mean NPCs, VNPCs, and other PCs are not.

Which is why I posted earlier I'm in favor of the look echo being removed.

In reference to the unseen crowd situation.

What really pissed me off at first, was how the templarate would pick me out of a crowd and go "HEY! Why are you creeping around like a serial killer! Stop or die!"..... which is bullshit, cause the command echo tells me quick clearly, I'm Blending in, not skuling creaping or slinking, I'm looking so damn normal you don't notice me!

Just like people assume that look initiates interaction because it echoes, they also assume that entering a room does the same because that will also echo.

It's a problem with templars/nobles especially because a lot of times when you opt to ignore them (because it's a big tavern/busy street), they'll ladle on the punishment for disrespect. Same thing if you look (recognize them) but don't do anything else (no respect). The problem becomes when the noble/templar takes the pseudo-interaction of a look, passing-by, or even a lack thereof as an excuse to exercise their IC power. Though this can best be handled with player complaints, IMO.

I've had it happen to me twice, once because I walked through a room with a templar without bowing because I was spamwalking and didn't even see him, and the other because a noble walked into the room and I didn't bow (because there were plenty of vNPCs in the room, and I didn't see a "The haughty, bored noble has arrived from the south, and the waves of commoner filth in the tavern all bow down before his awesomeness."


Riev

  • Posts: 5660
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2009, 02:00:46 AM »
I've had it happen to me twice, once because I walked through a room with a templar without bowing because I was spamwalking and didn't even see him, and the other because a noble walked into the room and I didn't bow (because there were plenty of vNPCs in the room, and I didn't see a "The haughty, bored noble has arrived from the south, and the waves of commoner filth in the tavern all bow down before his awesomeness."

Well, spamwalking is no excuse for just walking by someone. I think they're fully in their rights to be a dick if you're spamwalking through town and pass them by without even a care.

And so far as the noble thing, if you know its a noble, you make the decision to show respect, or not to. Don't depend on -them- to direct your roleplay.
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hyzhenhok

  • Posts: 1664
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2009, 02:38:41 AM »
Well, spamwalking is no excuse for just walking by someone. I think they're fully in their rights to be a dick if you're spamwalking through town and pass them by without even a care.

And so far as the noble thing, if you know its a noble, you make the decision to show respect, or not to. Don't depend on -them- to direct your roleplay.

If they can't even be bothered to give a reason as to why they're noticing my character instead of the masses of other travellers who are also virtually spamwalking past them, I don't give a rat's ass. I will simply play it as though my character didn't notice them. It's not hard to come up with an IC excuse to single out a PC, so the "I pick you because you're PC and you echo when you walk" thing isn't good enough in my book.

The problem is when they direct -my- roleplay, and completely ignore the game world when doing so. Given the amount of power that templar/noble PCs have, I don't think it's unfair to hold them to higher standards when it comes to taking the world and vNPCs into account. There are so many ways these characters can interact with commoners besides the "gotcha, you didn't bow" schtick, and it's just a loss for everyone when it happens.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:40:17 AM by hyzhenhok »

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8884
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2009, 02:45:20 AM »
In reference to the unseen crowd situation.

What really pissed me off at first, was how the templarate would pick me out of a crowd and go "HEY! Why are you creeping around like a serial killer! Stop or die!"..... which is bullshit, cause the command echo tells me quick clearly, I'm Blending in, not skuling creaping or slinking, I'm looking so damn normal you don't notice me!

Right.

So when can they notice that you are sneaking?

If they catch you sneaking, then you are sneaking.

If you want to blend in, then walk normal and act normal.

If you get caught sneaking, then you are TRYING to blend in, and that equals some form of intent. It's like the dude in the movie who runs out of an alley and merges with the crowd, hands into his pocket, walking a little too fast, looking behind him and to each side, wondering where the bad guy is. That's sneaking, and that's hiding. Particularly hiding.
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SMuz

  • Posts: 2540
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2009, 08:50:03 AM »
Sorry.  If this discussion is heated I think it's because probably just as often as you've had people chase your character through a crowd to look at them, I and others have had people try to kill our characters (it's happened to me more than once) seemingly just in response to a plain look echo.

The title and tone of your posts makes me wonder if you were one of them.

I'm also not particularly opposed to removing or otherwise subduing the look echo.  I'm simply opposed to your accusations that it's poor roleplay to look at people.

Yeah, what Moe said. Chasing someone down to get a look is poor RP. Killing someone just for looking at you is equally poor. And I really do get annoyed when someone backstabs me for looking at them.

But if there's OOC curiosity, there's certainly IC curiosity. As for NPCs, people don't really look at them because they've seen them before a few times. But if you're new to the area, people will look at you more. If you're not new, but covering your face, people will look at you to see who's under the hood. If there's a hooded NPC, you'd be sure I'd look at him.
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Krath

  • Posts: 2593
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2009, 02:02:35 PM »
I look at every pc, everytime I go into a bar,
and will continue to.

Get over it. You know how many times
you probably get looked at IRL in an hour
if your at the bar or local watering hole.
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

MarshallDFX

  • Posts: 1531
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2009, 02:27:17 PM »
If there is a problem with getting every last detail of your appearance in a look, perhaps the problem is putting every last detail of your appearance in your mdesc.

Comrade Canadia

  • Posts: 276
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2009, 02:32:59 PM »
I can't really say anything that hasn't been said already, but yeah. Look is not a big deal. Not every character meticulously scours your desc and equipment list and then files it away for later use to ruin your plots or whatever. Most people don't care. They're just curious.

A great deal of this game is based on placing trust in other PCs not to 'power play' so that you can all interact realistically. It's -completely reasonable- for me to look at you if you're wearing a hood. It's also reasonable for you to expect me to write it as a quick glance, and then assume that I will treat it like a quick glance. We have commands like this so we can properly interact with each other, and confusing or limiting them is just going to make life difficult.

Beyond that, people look at each other. They do it a lot. If I walk into a bar (which is the most popular example for whatever reason), I actually try to look at everyone. I get an idea of my surroundings. I don't stare at the floor. I also don't stare everyone in the gaze and give them a careful inspection. I just look around. It's impossible for me NOT to see people. Sdescs impart practically nothing, and because of that, use of the look command is completely appropriate.

What I do with the information I get from look is another thing. Is your character in a hood, in a dark corner, throwing up emotes about how hard it is to see his face? Well then as a good roleplayer my character won't recall a huge amount about your guy if asked. If you're up at the bar, making noise, and attracting attention - well then I'll get a closer look at you because you're commanding my gaze. Ideally, I'll be attaching emotes to my look so you impart the correct meaning from what I'm doing.

Removing the echo from look or changing it to the 'you notice' bit is fine by me, however. If anything, the spam of looks is a little much (I don't mind people looking at me when I walk in a room, it's just screen spam I could do without), and it may stop the paranoid types from having a coronary every time somebody glances at them.
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RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19158
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2009, 03:47:15 PM »
I can't really say anything that hasn't been said already

Look at your post, you liar.

Comrade Canadia

  • Posts: 276
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2009, 04:48:38 PM »
I am a lying liar who tells lies of an untruthful nature :( I also should proofread before posting!
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Versu

  • Posts: 97
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2009, 10:53:00 AM »
I think what it comes down to, is when you look at someone, use the () so the other person has some idea how you intend to interact, or some notion of your characters... location? personality? Something?

Sneaky people for certain, I've had templars overlook me in commons simply because I used enough hemotes for them not to care, or they were too lazy or more interested watching somene pilfer around them.

Emoting saves lives.

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Lizzie

  • Posts: 8138
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2009, 11:02:45 AM »
I usually add something to "flavor" the look Versu, but there are often reasons to -not- do that. The most likely reason is - it takes too long to type it out. Specific circumstances cause that timeliness issue.

In the gaj..a hooded figure comes in from the sleeping chamber and without hesitation, walks north to the road. He comes back in and immediately walks south. You -try- setting up a "look (doing something to catch a glimpse) but this guy just is like on B12 or something. So you think, OOCly, fuck it. And just LOOK at the guy.

This happens all the time. If someone is passing the general area where I am, over and over and over again, I WILL notice his existence. I WILL be able to catch a glimpse of something, other than the fact that he's a hooded figure. Maybe I'll be able to see his boots. Or maybe I'll be able to tell that he has really natty nasty dreads hanging down to his knees. Or maybe I'll be able to tell that he's holding a metal sword.

Happens all the damned time, people going past fast, sometimes THEY will set a look up at you and then go past before you can look at them. At that point, I know they're doing it intentionally. Can't report "Hey a hooded figure spam-looks at everyone and walks away, I have no idea who it is, please tell them to stop being a twink LOL"... so I deal with it ICly instead. And ICly, my character feels like someone else just got the advantage. And that simply isn't acceptable. So she will go out of her way to "look" at him the next time he passes by. If I can throw in an emote, I do. But when people do that kind of shit without giving me enough time to type it out, then fuck it.
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