Author Topic: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth  (Read 7719 times)

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8889
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2009, 02:33:20 AM »
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.



Bogre

  • Posts: 3321
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2009, 04:43:48 AM »
I look at everyone.

But don't feel special, I tend to look at every thing as well.

Anyways, I wouldn't like the look echo taken off. Half the time you know someone is paying attention or have noticed you if you get a look. It would be weird if it didn't echo and all of a sudden people went, out of the blue, "Dude you look rough." "wtf how did you know that."

I tripped and Fale down my stairs. Drink milk and you'll grow Uaptal. I know this guy from the state of Tenneshi. This house will go up Borsail tomorrow. I gave my book to him Nenyuk it back again. I hired this guy golfing to Kadius around for a while.

Bogre

  • Posts: 3321
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2009, 04:45:22 AM »
Plus I think it would lessen the amount of look emotes people do if the look echo is taken.
I tripped and Fale down my stairs. Drink milk and you'll grow Uaptal. I know this guy from the state of Tenneshi. This house will go up Borsail tomorrow. I gave my book to him Nenyuk it back again. I hired this guy golfing to Kadius around for a while.

Salt Merchant

  • Posts: 1663
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2009, 06:41:08 AM »
I think we can do better than to "get over it".

For one thing, a list of conditions could be made so that, when a character arrives, it becomes apparent to everyone that there is something unusual about his or her appearance.

Conditions could include such states as:
- being naked or partially naked
- being near death or badly wounded
- looking particularly ill
- wielding a weapon in-city without being a militia member or a templar
- carrying something exceptionally bulky
- whatever else seems reasonable

An example:
>
The tressy-tressed young lass arrives from the north.
The tressy-tressed young lass looks nearly dead!
>

And there could be a survey command that lists people in unusual states within the room.

> survey
The lanky, scarred half-elf looks nearly dead!
The short, burly dwarf is bleeding profusely!
>

Which might be useful after a big fight.

This, combined with removing the somewhat aggressive "looks at you" message (which really, since it provides every detail, indicates more than a simple glance; it should echo more like "looks at you from head to toe and maneuvers to get a good view under your hood no matter which way you're facing") could allow both the hypervigilant and the new boy/girl in town to relax somewhat.

Also, I suggest that NPCs raise their hoods, especially in sandstorms.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 06:44:20 AM by Salt Merchant »
Lunch makes me happy.

AmandaGreathouse

  • Posts: 3593
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Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2009, 06:47:43 AM »
Some of you sound so bitter. First and foremost, it's a game. And, at that, a text-based one.

Whatever happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt? I mean, shit, just because someone looks at your l33t raid3r of d00m doesn't mean they're going to remember all the details automagickally.

Second, in a world as poor as Zalanthas, if you're wearing jewelry, nice clothes, relatively decent armor, you're going to garner a few looks. Likely from VNPC's as well.

Third, this is an RPI, it is a mixture of code -and- roleplay. I don't think you need to code every single thing to make it playable. Christ, are we going to take -all- the decisions from players and have them coded? Yeah, I'm sure.

Seriously, it's just a look.
Quote from: Wug
No one on staff is just waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on someone who killed one of their characters years ago.

Except me. I remember every death. And I am coming for you bastards.

HTX

  • Posts: 320
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2009, 07:18:16 AM »
I think we can do better than to "get over it".

For one thing, a list of conditions could be made so that, when a character arrives, it becomes apparent to everyone that there is something unusual about his or her appearance.

Conditions could include such states as:
- being naked or partially naked
- being near death or badly wounded
- looking particularly ill
- wielding a weapon in-city without being a militia member or a templar
- carrying something exceptionally bulky
- whatever else seems reasonable

Yes.

Also - perhaps a command allowing people to view other people's equipment list without showing a look echo, something I recall been suggested ages ago and something I'm still in support of.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8200
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2009, 08:20:57 AM »
I think we can do better than to "get over it".

For one thing, a list of conditions could be made so that, when a character arrives, it becomes apparent to everyone that there is something unusual about his or her appearance.

Conditions could include such states as:
- being naked or partially naked
- being near death or badly wounded
- looking particularly ill
- wielding a weapon in-city without being a militia member or a templar
- carrying something exceptionally bulky
- whatever else seems reasonable

An example:
>
The tressy-tressed young lass arrives from the north.
The tressy-tressed young lass looks nearly dead!
>

Let's expand that example to reflect a more common scene:
A Byn unit has just arrived in the Gaj for their day off.
A green-eyed man arrives from the north.
A green-eyed man is missing his pants!
A green-eyed man is badly wounded!
A green-eyed man looks thirsty!
A green-eyed man is wielding a weapon!
A green-eyed man is carrying a backpack!

A blue-eyed man arrives from the north.
A blue-eyed man is badly wounded!
A blue-eyed man looks hungry!
A blue-eyed man is wielding a weapon!

A red-haired man arrives from the north.
A red-haired man is wounded!
A red-haired man is carrying a chest!

A big half-giant arrives from the north.
A big half-giant is carrying an enormous crate!
A big half-giant looks hungry!
A big half-giant looks sick!

And so on and so forth..and everyone who is sitting in the bar is subjected to 20 pages of screen scroll just because 5 noobs and one Byn Sergeant walked into the room, just returned from a day of sparring.

No. Thank you, but no.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Cutthroat

  • Helper
  • Posts: 4372
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2009, 08:24:25 AM »
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Fourth'd

If there must be -any- change, this is the one I'd like to see. I know I've suggested it somewhere before.

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2009, 08:25:23 AM »
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Fourth'd

If there must be -any- change, this is the one I'd like to see. I know I've suggested it somewhere before.
Fifth'd.

Sorry. Just felt like this should reach the heights of absurdity that it deserves. Also, I do honestly agree.
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

--Alan Moore

Jorlain

  • Posts: 164
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2009, 08:37:52 AM »
New command: Glance

glance woman

You glance at the so-and-so woman.
  Insert fancy mdesc here.

No echos on glance. All it gives you is their mdesc. That way, for those of us that just need to re-read your mdesc, we can do so without an annoying "so-and-so looks at you".

Look is still present, shows you their mdesc, and visible equipment, and has the standard echo attached.

Problem resolved.
<Blank> says, out of character:
     "OW!  Afk a moment, my chair just...broke, beneath me."

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2009, 08:39:20 AM »
New command: Glance

glance woman

You glance at the so-and-so woman.
  Insert fancy mdesc here.

No echos on glance. All it gives you is their mdesc. That way, for those of us that just need to re-read your mdesc, we can do so without an annoying "so-and-so looks at you".

Look is still present, shows you their mdesc, and visible equipment, and has the standard echo attached.

Problem resolved.

It isn't the mdesc I'm worried about, it's the equipment list. If this newly proposed "glance" command showed equipment and magick effects, etc., that'd be totally cool.
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

--Alan Moore

spicemustflow

  • Posts: 2493
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2009, 08:55:29 AM »
How about the simplest possible solution, that people stop regarding 'look' command like 'pin you down and strip search'? On my way to the store, I 'looked' at many people, including a cop who didn't draw his gun at me. He even looked back. He must be up to something.

AmandaGreathouse

  • Posts: 3593
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Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 08:57:46 AM »
I'm more apt to pay attention to a persons mdesc than their eqiupment list, personally. I'm in favor of the look proposal made b Pale Horse and fifth'd by most everybody.

That being said, I think the glance thing has some merit, but I'd prefer to see it broken down a bit.

glance <soandso>
You see their mdesc.

glance <soandso> assess
all the assess -v info, plus effects and equipment.

Also:

spicemustflow: You hit the nail right on the head.
Quote from: Wug
No one on staff is just waiting for the opportunity to get revenge on someone who killed one of their characters years ago.

Except me. I remember every death. And I am coming for you bastards.

SMuz

  • Posts: 2540
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2009, 09:31:25 AM »
What.. the.. fuck? I can't even look at people now? I look at things all the time. I might look at your character twice, because I don't want to scroll up or copy your desc to notepad.

You're not special just because I look at you. I look at the NPCs too. I look at the rooms and the items, multiple times.

I don't think this needs a change in code. Looking at people is by far the simplest option. And the echo is fine. I like that the echo is a way of indicating that the character is sentient.
Clans can give stat bonuses and penalties, too. The Byn drop in wisdom is particularly notorious.

Salt Merchant

  • Posts: 1663
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2009, 09:41:22 AM »
What.. the.. fuck? I can't even look at people now? I look at things all the time. I might look at your character twice, because I don't want to scroll up or copy your desc to notepad.

You're not special just because I look at you. I look at the NPCs too. I look at the rooms and the items, multiple times.

I don't think this needs a change in code. Looking at people is by far the simplest option. And the echo is fine. I like that the echo is a way of indicating that the character is sentient.

You don't get it.

I'm not trying to keep my IC identity a secret.

I don't care if someone looks at me if I start talking to them, or if we're alone in a room together, or if my character is doing something to draw attention to himself, or if we ride past each other on the North Road. That's natural enough.

The bee under my bonnet is that even in crowded circumstances like the pub example or out on Caravan Road with huge crowds flowing in every direction, my character will get looked at directly just because he has that magick PC aura that means "you must look at -me- out of the hundreds of people around". Every single time. In fact, there have been times when people have chosen to chase my character down the road through enormous crowds just to get a look at him in particular.

It's that there's no reasonable IC explanation for it. People have tried to explain it as needing to see if there are circumstances they should be aware of but then they don't give unhooded PCs the same treatment. You may claim to be looking at NPCs (very rare that I see this happen) or vNPCs, but you can't reasonably survey a place with potentially hundreds of people present and know all of the details of their appearances and apparel.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 09:48:39 AM by Salt Merchant »
Lunch makes me happy.

X-D

  • Posts: 5730
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2009, 09:50:38 AM »
Of course they do not.

And I think it is somewhat childish thinking to think they should. An unhooded PC is giving information...namely, what they look like. A hooded PC is not. It is that simple. You as the player of the hooded PC have decided to not give up some basic information and the player of the other PC must then use a command to gather more then basic information. 
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13005
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 09:57:27 AM »
Again, look doesn't echo when used on vNPCs.  While my PC is walking down the street, yes often he does look at most of the vNPCs there, hooded or otherwise.  Heck, he looks at the NPCs and un-hooded PCs too, but I, as a player, often eschew the coded look command because I've seen that N/PC before and I know what they look like.

Do I really have to emote about every single person, virtual or otherwise, who passes through my character's field of vision?


Just because you've got your hood up, it doesn't mean people aren't allowed to look at you.  (If you don't want people to look at you, hide.)

Just because you've got your hood up, it doesn't mean people can't recognize you.

Just because someone looks at you, it doesn't mean they're not looking at all the vNPCs standing next to you too.

Just because someone doesn't look at an unhooded person, it doesn't mean they don't see them.


Are you really sure we can do better than "get over it"?  Because apparently some people can't even do that...

Salt Merchant

  • Posts: 1663
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2009, 10:01:57 AM »
Of course they do not.

And I think it is somewhat childish thinking to think they should. An unhooded PC is giving information...namely, what they look like. A hooded PC is not. It is that simple. You as the player of the hooded PC have decided to not give up some basic information and the player of the other PC must then use a command to gather more then basic information. 

The bottom line is that this looking occurs largely out of simple OOC curiousity. None of these attempted explanations hold water because of the contradictory behaviors characters show.

Do I have a good solution for it? I don't, and it's obvious that many people who are posting in this thread don't want to even bother to try. So I'll accept WarriorPoet's viewpoint, namely that it just comes with being a PC in a game.

Thanks to all who have posted.
Lunch makes me happy.

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2009, 10:10:04 AM »
I stand by the following: make "look" a subtle action like "assess," or just eliminate the echo altogether.
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

--Alan Moore

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13005
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2009, 10:29:40 AM »
Sorry.  If this discussion is heated I think it's because probably just as often as you've had people chase your character through a crowd to look at them, I and others have had people try to kill our characters (it's happened to me more than once) seemingly just in response to a plain look echo.

The title and tone of your posts makes me wonder if you were one of them.

I'm also not particularly opposed to removing or otherwise subduing the look echo.  I'm simply opposed to your accusations that it's poor roleplay to look at people.

Thunkkin

  • Posts: 1967
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2009, 11:21:35 AM »
I'm in favor of the look echo being changed to a "subtle" action.  One that requires a keen sense of observation to pick up, unless it's got an emote attached.

Code: [Select]
Look tressy-tressed woman
Said woman now has a chance of getting the echo:

Code: [Select]
You notice: the tall, muscular man looks at you
if she's particularly observant or watching the one who happens to look at her.

If it's:

Code: [Select]
look tressy-tressed (blatantly leering)
then I think the echo should pop up.

Second'd
Third'd

Maybe it would eliminate these discussions.
Fourth'd

If there must be -any- change, this is the one I'd like to see. I know I've suggested it somewhere before.
Fifth'd.

Sorry. Just felt like this should reach the heights of absurdity that it deserves. Also, I do honestly agree.

Sixth'd.
Quote from: Synthesis
Quote from: lordcooper
You go south and one of the other directions that isn't north.  That is seriously the limit of my geographical knowledge of Arm.
Sarge?

LoD

  • Posts: 1363
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2009, 11:48:36 AM »
The look command is an exchange in information. 

You give me your main description and visible equipment so that I can make a determination for how my character might want to react to your physical appearance, possible mutations, visible tattoos or scars, choice of dress, obvious clan trappings, foreign or domestic items, and the state of your being.

I give you an indication that my character is being actively played, that I have a cursory interest in your character, and that I might be interested in some kind of interaction so that you can make a determination on whether you want to check me out in return, whether your character wants to make a response, pursue some interaction, or ignore me altogether.

What both sides choose to do with this information is entirely up to them, but I think it's important that the information continues to be passed -- whether it's handling messages that are IC, OOC, or both.

-LoD

Ampere

  • Posts: 1485
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2009, 11:51:45 AM »
Didn't we just do this?
Quote from: science
An early study by Plaut and Kohn-Speyer (1947)[11] found that horse smegma had a carcinogenic effect on mice. Heins et al.(1958)

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19160
Re: 'Look' and much gnashing of teeth
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2009, 01:10:57 PM »
Didn't we just do this?
'

Like, fuckin' two days ago.