Author Topic: Discussion of Pregnancy Article  (Read 14133 times)

Taven

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Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« on: April 19, 2009, 08:44:30 PM »
You can discuss the pregnancy article here.

Yes, I know it isn't up yet. It will be momentary, and when it is, I can post it right off the bat with a link to here. Cool, isn't it?
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2009, 08:54:03 PM »
It's up now, discussion, comments, and questions welcome.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35066.0.html
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Fathi

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2009, 09:29:34 PM »
Quote from: Article
Zalanthas is NOT the modern day. There is little to no knowledge of sanitation or germs.

This is slightly misleading, I think.

There's evidence of medical cleanliness dating back as far as ancient Egypt. A papyrus that dates to ~1500 BC details the use of animal fat and honey being applied to wounds and hand-washing prior. Granted, the Egyptians did it to keep evil spirits out, but honey is a mild antibacterial and they had discovered that dirty hands led to dirty wounds, even without the specific knowledge that it was caused by microbes. The methods they used did have some success versus just slapping a rag on. Sumerian clay tablets from ~2100 BC and Hippocrates ~400 BC entertain the idea of of alcohol as an antiseptic.

I think it's highly plausible that some Zalanthan cultures would have discovered this knowledge through trial and error, especially if you take into account the gameworld's widespread use of herbal poultices and the existence of animal-fat soaps.

I agree that they wouldn't know microbes in particular were causing things like illnesses and abscesses and that Zalanthan methods would be a lot less 100% sure to help, but I see it easily within the realm of possibility that those trained in Zalanthan medicine know enough to keep dust out of wounds and possibly use alcohol as an antiseptic agent.
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2009, 09:44:53 PM »
Quote from: Article
Zalanthas is NOT the modern day. There is little to no knowledge of sanitation or germs.

This is slightly misleading, I think.

There's evidence of medical cleanliness dating back as far as ancient Egypt. A papyrus that dates to ~1500 BC details the use of animal fat and honey being applied to wounds and hand-washing prior. Granted, the Egyptians did it to keep evil spirits out, but honey is a mild antibacterial and they had discovered that dirty hands led to dirty wounds, even without the specific knowledge that it was caused by microbes. The methods they used did have some success versus just slapping a rag on. Sumerian clay tablets from ~2100 BC and Hippocrates ~400 BC entertain the idea of of alcohol as an antiseptic.

I think it's highly plausible that some Zalanthan cultures would have discovered this knowledge through trial and error, especially if you take into account the gameworld's widespread use of herbal poultices and the existence of animal-fat soaps.

I agree that they wouldn't know microbes in particular were causing things like illnesses and abscesses and that Zalanthan methods would be a lot less 100% sure to help, but I see it easily within the realm of possibility that those trained in Zalanthan medicine know enough to keep dust out of wounds and possibly use alcohol as an antiseptic agent.

I agree with what you're saying. In that statement, I meant more of they didn't have as big of a grasp of modern sanitation. I think they'd know to clean the wound of dust, etc., but not neccessarily to wash their hands. Hand washing suggests the use of water or some liquid as a lather for the soap, and I don't think commoners would see using spit for the lather as a bad thing, especially with the scarcity of water.

Would that section be better if it was rephrased to say "There is far less understanding of germs and sanitation. While a medic may know to keep a wound clean and protected from dust, they might also see wiping something off as cleaning it, without the use of soap. Sanitation levels will vary, and even in the best conditions will be less then what modern technology can establish."?
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jcljules

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 09:51:54 PM »
Taven, it seems like you've posted a lot of awesome guides like these. Is there anywhere where you have a link to all of them?
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Cutthroat

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 09:56:55 PM »
I like the article overall.

Especially the part about multiple births. Giving birth to twins has always seemed like a pretty popular thing for PCs to do, and that's cool, you can do whatever you want, but keep in mind that multiple births are really rare. I think the rate last year in the US was 3% of births being twin births. The amount of -successful- twin births in Zalanthas would be far less. Food for thought.

I also thought the effects of pregnancy by trimester were interesting as they provide a good base for RP. Also, having a virtual birth or fading out during birth is a-ok.

Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 09:59:03 PM »
Taven, it seems like you've posted a lot of awesome guides like these. Is there anywhere where you have a link to all of them?


Thanks! I updated the list on the Website Organization thread, and stuck a link to Mansa's awesome newbie guide in there, too.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,33302.msg441583.html#msg441583
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WarriorPoet

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 10:23:26 PM »
I would like to see staff occasionally kill a birthing mother, just to liven things up and keep it real. All these problem-free births are bullshit, in such a low-tech and inanely harsh setting.
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Pale Horse

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 10:33:25 PM »
I would like to see staff occasionally kill a birthing mother, just to liven things up and keep it real. All these problem-free births are bullshit, in such a low-tech and inanely harsh setting.

Seen it happen.  Player initiative.
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2009, 10:36:59 PM »
I would like to see staff occasionally kill a birthing mother, just to liven things up and keep it real. All these problem-free births are bullshit, in such a low-tech and inanely harsh setting.

I think we'd see less pregnancies that way. I also think that while having some staff attention to births, adding to challange and realism, that death isn't really encouraging. Let's face it, if we were to play Arm as "real" there'd be a ton more pregnancies. How many people do you know who use coded mul mix, or even make a reference to virtual use? Maybe it's more then I think, but we'd be having alot more pregnancies if players just didn't write it off.


Especially the part about multiple births. Giving birth to twins has always seemed like a pretty popular thing for PCs to do, and that's cool, you can do whatever you want, but keep in mind that multiple births are really rare. I think the rate last year in the US was 3% of births being twin births. The amount of -successful- twin births in Zalanthas would be far less. Food for thought.

I also thought the effects of pregnancy by trimester were interesting as they provide a good base for RP. Also, having a virtual birth or fading out during birth is a-ok.

I've been close to observe a few births, and of those over a year old, a little under half have been twins. Considering how many PCs choose to get pregnant, that's a huge percentage. After the second birth of twins out of some three or four pregnancies, it's not really that shocking as a player to see another. For me, it would be more suprising to see a single baby or, say, a baby with mutations. I know there have been some excellently played single-baby births, with some questionable affects happening to them. I got to see the terror that is the nesting urges of a pregnant PC ICly, and that was well played. All of these were before tdesc came in, and so it was pretty awkward for my PC to say "You're pregnant?" when the woman was in her second or third trimester. I should add a mention of tdesc to the article.

Fading out for birth is MORE then okay. I can't image role-playing that out, a major round of applause for anyone that can do that accuerately and vividly. As for me, I'd fade or do it virtually, and I wouldn't want to personally have a PC be there for a graphic birth.
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WarriorPoet

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 10:53:49 PM »
I would like to see staff occasionally kill a birthing mother, just to liven things up and keep it real. All these problem-free births are bullshit, in such a low-tech and inanely harsh setting.

Seen it happen.  Player initiative.

Nice. Kudos in great amounts to that player.
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Ramblingman

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 11:10:18 PM »
Not sure if its worth adding, but something might want to be added or discussed about magick-interference in birthing. Everything from Vivaduan's assisting some noblehouses, tribal shamans, to defilers and other mages interfering etc.  There is also the whole half-giant thing. Figured it would be worth a mention that there are fantasy elements out there and that really weird things may be happening or have happened. (Accelerated birthing, maybe psionic communication to the fetus, etc.)

Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 11:19:38 PM »
Not sure if its worth adding, but something might want to be added or discussed about magick-interference in birthing. Everything from Vivaduan's assisting some noblehouses, tribal shamans, to defilers and other mages interfering etc.  There is also the whole half-giant thing. Figured it would be worth a mention that there are fantasy elements out there and that really weird things may be happening or have happened. (Accelerated birthing, maybe psionic communication to the fetus, etc.)

I could add a section for that, but I think that if "unusual" births are talked about too much there, then I'd be afraid we'd be seeing too much of it. I also think that if that's a direction a player wants a birth to go, then the article gives an idea that there are possibilities, but leaves the player to determine them themselves. I've seen odd effects handled well in reguards to birth, but I'd also like to see just more "normal" harsh, gritty births. Also, for the more extremes you'd have to have staff approval. I think that there are great possibilities out there in terms of odd births, but that the article is just a basis to use for things, and that anything further should be figured out by the player.

Also, if anyone has psionic-twin babies that happen to have vividu healing powers so that the mother is insta-healed as they're born, I swear that I will hunt you down, reguardless of my current PC, and kill you. (Yes, I do think that unusual births could be cool, but the foremention senario is what I'm wary of.)
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Morrolan

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 11:46:05 PM »
I would like to weigh in on cultural factors regarding pregnancy and birth.  First, I would like to suggest a reference for those who really want to get some perspective from other cultures:

Birth in Four Cultures : A Crosscultural Investigation of Childbirth in Yucatan, Holland, Sweden, and the United States (Paperback)

A lot of the images that we have of childbirth in our culture come from TV, and while there have been some real steps forward in the last twenty years to promote realistic childbirth on TV (through the popularity of medical shows) it is important to remember that those TV shows are our cultural myths.

The #1 thing that comes to mind is the idea of women giving birth on their backs.  Yes, this works (more or less) but there are other positions that are more effecive (like squatting).  By more effective, I mean that the perenium is much less likely to tear or need to be cut.

Commmentary about the idea of women needing to lie down for childbirth includes critiques of the medicalization of childbirth by the Western medical profession.

I'm sure a lot of this is "old hat" for some of you armers, but I lively discussion of cross-cultural childbirth rites might be helpful for others.

Morrolan
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2009, 11:51:37 PM »
I would like to weigh in on cultural factors regarding pregnancy and birth.  First, I would like to suggest a reference for those who really want to get some perspective from other cultures:

Birth in Four Cultures : A Crosscultural Investigation of Childbirth in Yucatan, Holland, Sweden, and the United States (Paperback)

A lot of the images that we have of childbirth in our culture come from TV, and while there have been some real steps forward in the last twenty years to promote realistic childbirth on TV (through the popularity of medical shows) it is important to remember that those TV shows are our cultural myths.

The #1 thing that comes to mind is the idea of women giving birth on their backs.  Yes, this works (more or less) but there are other positions that are more effecive (like squatting).  By more effective, I mean that the perenium is much less likely to tear or need to be cut.

Commmentary about the idea of women needing to lie down for childbirth includes critiques of the medicalization of childbirth by the Western medical profession.

I'm sure a lot of this is "old hat" for some of you armers, but I lively discussion of cross-cultural childbirth rites might be helpful for others.

Morrolan

I don't really cover the actual giving birth, just the pregnancy, but I think that adding a mention of this into the medic/midwife section is defidently worthwhile. I'll add it to my edit to-do list. :P
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FantasyWriter

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2009, 04:17:34 AM »
maybe psionic communication to the fetus, etc.)

Dude.... that is one of the most awesome arm thoughts I have ever seen on the board.  There is SOOOO much that could come from that.
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Bushranger

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2009, 04:22:06 AM »
maybe psionic communication to the fetus, etc.)

Dude.... that is one of the most awesome arm thoughts I have ever seen on the board.  There is SOOOO much that could come from that.

The baby fetus psionicist mentally controls its mother's cravings: SPICY ERDLU WINGS IN GINKA SAUCE, KALAN JAM AND SCRAB GIBLETS! NOW! NOW!
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Yam

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2009, 04:34:17 AM »
Awesome article.

Fathi

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2009, 05:14:58 AM »
I would like to see staff occasionally kill a birthing mother, just to liven things up and keep it real. All these problem-free births are bullshit, in such a low-tech and inanely harsh setting.

Seen it happen.  Player initiative.

Seconding this (though probably not the same incident). And it was very awesome and poignant and not overly melodramatic at all.

Mad props to anybody who considers this as an alternative to storing a female PC.

I was on the brink of doing it with one of mine long ago, but the pregnancy ended up being too weird even without that.
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tortall

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2009, 07:51:12 AM »
One thing that I found useful was looking at pictures of pregnant woman in different stages. I went through all kinds of pictures and marked what size I would be and when. Sadly, this was before tdesc. Wish I still had the link to that one website...
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2009, 09:50:47 AM »
Something I haven't seen discussed at all:

Playability of the fact that there is now a VNPC baby in the world. Mom's a Kurac recruit (not life-sworn)..and gets killed by a gith. Dad is a generic nomad rangerly type, unclanned, with no coded encampment, and can't afford a full-time wet-nurse.

So who's raising this kid now? Where? By what means?

I have problems with the idea of PC pregnancy because PCs are very likely to not live long enough for their kids to not depend on them. I've seen lots of PCs get pregnant and have kids. I know of just a couple of those PCs who had the means, and the coded environment, in which to raise those kids, in the unfortunate event of that PC's death. The rest...the majority - well those kids just end up - unresolved. They fade to black, cease to exist, and everyone just basicallly forgets they were ever born. That's kinda stupid, to me.

I'd like to see a LOT more PCs arranging to sell their newborns to slave houses, or tribes that would make use of unblooded tribe members. At least that way there's some continuity and you don't see f-me female have 3 kids with no place to put them and daddy *might* be one of 4 men that anyone would actually know about..so none of them are gonna take responsibility cause there ain't no DNA testing and all 3 kids look just like MOM. And then mom dies..and those three kids, age newborn, 9 months, and 18 months end up..

what?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 09:52:20 AM by Lizzie »
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SMuz

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2009, 09:55:01 AM »
You know all those PCs who started off with cliche backgrounds as orphans out of nowhere? That's where they come from ;)

I think it balances out; there are more orphan PCs than orphaned children of PCs. Yeah, and I bet that's where a lot of slaves come from too.
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 10:08:47 AM »
I'm talking about what happens to these virtual infants, while MY character is still alive to have witnessed their existence.

Case in point: a couple years ago, there was a Tuluki, a young woman. She was a new hire to a merchant clan, not lifesworn, not all that great at hunting yet, but that was her job in the clan. She acquired a couple of lovers..and promptly got pregnant, within the first 2 weeks of her character showing up out of character generation.

So she has twins...and then goes out hunting and dies. She had roleplayed that her babies were in the apartment. The PCs of merchant house she belonged to had never expressed any interest in those babies, other than "oh you're feeling up to hunting again and doing your job? Great! We need gurth shells this week."

One of the lovers she had, disappeared. The other, didn't seem interested in "being" a daddy. The twins were last seen in a locked apartment, alone, with no one to breastfeed them, no one to sell them, no one to give them away, no one to take care of them.

This is one of MANY similar experiences I've observed in the game. Players want their characters to be pregnant and have babies. Great. I acknowledge that. But these same players forget that this is a permanent death game, and it is HIGHLY likely that their character won't live long enough to see their kid eating solid foods.

They make no provisions for these kids..other than to stick everyone else with the responsibility of pretending the kids never existed because they were only virtual, the mom's dead, and the apartment is up for rent again and there's no kids in there.

If this woman was a Merchant House family member, or lifesworn, then it'd be easy for everyone else to assume that the baby was brought in by the house and raised by virtual wetnurses, or that some virtual senior agent sold the kid to a virtual Borsail slaver noble. But the vast majority of pregnant characters I've seen, were not merchant house family members, or lifesworn, or tribals with actual tribes to care for their kids.. some reasonable explanation other than "oh the janitor took the kid out when he cleaned the apartment, and the kid got tossed out in the trash along with the backpack full of ritikki intestines."

There HAVE been several people whose characters get pregnant, who HAVE made arrangements or had ways to accommodate the virtual kids once mommy is dead. Kudos to people who do that, and my criticism isn't aimed at them. At all.

I'm talking about just Generic PC who sexes up generic male pc, gets pregnant, gives birth, and doesn't consider how everyone ELSE has to deal with "whatever happened to generic PC's baby?" after generic PC is dead.
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Maso

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2009, 11:08:31 AM »
One of the lovers she had, disappeared. The other, didn't seem interested in "being" a daddy. The twins were last seen in a locked apartment, alone, with no one to breastfeed them, no one to sell them, no one to give them away, no one to take care of them.

The babies would have been found dead or alive by the apartment attendant who would have chucked them in the street (dead), sold them himself or passed them to the orphanage.

No one said Zalanthans were responsible parents. It is quite feasible for the poor vNPC children of dead PC's to be royally fucked due to their parents death.

I managed to keep my one PC mum alive to see her vNPC son to the age of 10 and happily kidnapped by raiders. I often wonder about him now.....
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Adhira

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2009, 12:14:50 PM »
As far as staff killing pregnant mothers - this would not be something we would do off the cuff as it would fall into the realm of 'harming' a player.  In the past we have done plots that have affected peoples virtual families and the results were not good. It caused a great deal of angst for the player, and resulted in staff being accused of hating the player, instead of trying to involve them in a storyline. We won't be doing things like that again.

If the player themselves wish to be killed off during birth then we as staff are happy to damage them to death, or store them as appropriate. All you gotta do is ask.
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Kronibas

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2009, 12:33:14 PM »
If the Neo-Victorian fiction of Sarah Waters is to be believed, then during the Victorian era some people would act as "baby farmers" who trained and raised their "adoptees" from a young age to be laborers/beggers/thieves.

In Zalanthas, Waters' scenario might be feasible, but it's more likely that if a baby weren't instantly killed (or already dead) upon being found in a vacant apartment, then they would be looked after (to insure no physical/mental defects) until they reach the ages of between 5-10, at which time they might be sold into slavery or used as slaves/laborers by the finders themselves.

Having said that, GMHs would probably have areas to accomodate those and the infants/children of those who have served them for years upon years, even if there is no coded reference to such.  I'd definitely ask my clan imm.
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WarriorPoet

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2009, 12:33:55 PM »
As far as staff killing pregnant mothers - this would not be something we would do off the cuff as it would fall into the realm of 'harming' a player.  In the past we have done plots that have affected peoples virtual families and the results were not good. It caused a great deal of angst for the player, and resulted in staff being accused of hating the player, instead of trying to involve them in a storyline. We won't be doing things like that again.

That's why I say NO to virtual relationships that don't remain strictly on the fringes. It's a tough, rough, and very cruel world. IMO, if you can't take the consequences of building a virtual family and throwing litters and bringing them to the fore of your roleplaying, then you shouldn't be allowed to do so. The game Threshold comes to mind, as Aristotle long ago said that player pregnancies are not allowed in the game since there is no way to factor in all of the potential problems that go along with pregnancy in a low-tech setting. I suppose players having fits about their virtual children goes hand in hand.

I'm ALL for having virtual friends and family that add spice to your PLAYER2PLAYER interactions, but once those virtual characters, or pregnancies to stay on-topic, start making appearances and affecting the "real" world, like a baby or babies, they should be completely fair game for anyone to cook/eat/football-punt over the shieldwall.

I don't see that killing a prego through complications is any more 'harmful' to the player than, say, a mul tearing your head off or a beast ripping your belly open or a templar siezing and torturing you to death because they were bored.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 12:35:27 PM by WarriorPoet »
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2009, 02:27:25 PM »
WP's post brings up another sub-topic: how the other PCs can interact with someone's virtual baby.

Is it acceptable, since this is a VNPC baby, for a VNPC baby-snatcher to show up and steal the baby and run off, and sell it to a VNPC Borsail noble, to become a member of the VNPC slave crew? If not, why not? If so, I'd like to see more of that. Or at least..some of that. I've never seen it.  "I'll give you a hundred sids for your kid" should be a commonly heard sentence whenever a low-ranking or non-ranking city-bred commoner brings their newborn/infant around. I'd even go so far to suggest that pregnant women who are low-ranking or non-ranking should expect to see random traders and slavers coming up to them while they're still pregnant, offering them deals on the results of a healthy delivery. And - this should be _acceptable_ roleplay.
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staggerlee

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2009, 02:43:19 PM »
WP's post brings up another sub-topic: how the other PCs can interact with someone's virtual baby.

Is it acceptable, since this is a VNPC baby, for a VNPC baby-snatcher to show up and steal the baby and run off, and sell it to a VNPC Borsail noble, to become a member of the VNPC slave crew? If not, why not? If so, I'd like to see more of that. Or at least..some of that. I've never seen it.  "I'll give you a hundred sids for your kid" should be a commonly heard sentence whenever a low-ranking or non-ranking city-bred commoner brings their newborn/infant around. I'd even go so far to suggest that pregnant women who are low-ranking or non-ranking should expect to see random traders and slavers coming up to them while they're still pregnant, offering them deals on the results of a healthy delivery. And - this should be _acceptable_ roleplay.


It's as acceptable as any other rped activity in the mud.  Don't power-emote, allow for consent and cooperation the part of the other player, rp appropriately, and keep a log.  If you do all of that, I think it would be 100% acceptable.

I don't think you'd get much of a deal for your baby though, babies are cheap in teeming industrial* hellholes like Allanak. I'm sure you could get a nominal fee, but pcs tend not to be desperate enough to work side by side their virtual babies in whatever Allanak's version of a cannery is.


*I realize that 'Nak isn't industrialized, but it feels and behaves like an industrialized European city.
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2009, 03:43:38 PM »
Actually I had the movie Oliver in mind when I was thinking about this stuff. Oliver, and the rinth. Criminal organizations snagging babies, raising them as tools, teaching them the "trade" so they can grow up to be functioning and productive and profitable members of the criminal family.

As for power-emoting, I consider it just as "power emoting" for a player to roleplay that the baby who is sitting securely on her lap, unable to be stolen, is behaving like a perfect newborn angel in the midst of barroom brawls, thieves and ruffians of all sorts milling around, ale being spilled, puke being splattered by adults all over the floor...and yet tiny 3-day-old Newborn Nelly is a sweet, quiet, unmessy, perfect, non-vomiting, non-liquid-shitting on mommy's lap at the bar?

THAT to me is power emoting. It's like, the player of mommy dearest is dictating a story to me, and not roleplaying it. She's showing me a photograph of her baby at its best, and not presenting me with a virtual baby I can believe is actually there.
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staggerlee

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2009, 03:50:03 PM »
Disagreeing with another player's portrayal of the world and their place in it isn't the same as power-emoting at all. The generally accepted definition of power-emoting is forcing an action on someone else. "emote punches you in the face."  For the benefit of comparison, "emote performs a series of deft punches, with flawless accuracy and speed" is fine, though perhaps inaccurate.

The problem with power-emoting is not that it's an inaccurate depiction of the world, so much as that it's anti-social. "emote punches you in the face" is going to be responded to with "emote deftly avoids the punch" and lead to all kinds of jarring inconsistencies in the narrative. "emote throws a punch at %man face" allows the recipient to cooperate and respond either with "pemote head snaps back with the force of %attacker punch" or "emote deftly avoids avoids the punch."

If you have a complaint about someone's depiction of the world, rp, or emoting I'd suggest following the game's rules and using the player complaint tool to address it. 

You can't justify a power-emoted baby theft just because you thought that some pc's baby should be crying more.
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."

"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.

"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

WarriorPoet

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2009, 05:29:02 PM »
emote coughs his plague-cough all over %mommy baby.

ooc Your baby is now very sick. RP appropriately.
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Mudder

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2009, 06:37:08 PM »
emote coughs his plague-cough all over %mommy baby.

ooc Your baby is now very sick. RP appropriately.

*Chuckle*

Very cool link!
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2009, 07:07:38 PM »
One thing that I found useful was looking at pictures of pregnant woman in different stages. I went through all kinds of pictures and marked what size I would be and when. Sadly, this was before tdesc. Wish I still had the link to that one website...

A quick google search on pregnancies and trimesters should turn it up. I choose not to include any pictures in my article, since they wouldn't be mine to put there.

Something I haven't seen discussed at all:

Playability of the fact that there is now a VNPC baby in the world. Mom's a Kurac recruit (not life-sworn)..and gets killed by a gith. Dad is a generic nomad rangerly type, unclanned, with no coded encampment, and can't afford a full-time wet-nurse.

So who's raising this kid now? Where? By what means?

I have problems with the idea of PC pregnancy because PCs are very likely to not live long enough for their kids to not depend on them. I've seen lots of PCs get pregnant and have kids. I know of just a couple of those PCs who had the means, and the coded environment, in which to raise those kids, in the unfortunate event of that PC's death. The rest...the majority - well those kids just end up - unresolved. They fade to black, cease to exist, and everyone just basicallly forgets they were ever born. That's kinda stupid, to me.

In reguards to the Article, I think that this topic would have to be in another one. Infact, an Article about raising children would be probably very useful.

As to the topic itself, I agree with what you're saying on the kids having no recourse if the parents (parent?) dies, and even when they're alive how often they get ignored. I can see why this happens for playability reasons, at least them getting ignored. I think that players like the idea of having kids, but not spending endless time and effort on them, as virtual beings. I've seen PCs hire people to care for their kids, wetnurses or nanny's. While that may seem silly, and not cost-effective, I'd imagine that if you could find someone you trusted not to clean out your apartment, there'd be some people willing to work for not alot of pay, and just food and water. How qualified they are, of course, is debatable, but very few PCs are going to want to be stay at home moms.

For if the parent(s) die, I would recommend a PC making arrangements beforehand, "just in case." There's virtual family, employers (which Kroibas touches on) and friends.

WP's post brings up another sub-topic: how the other PCs can interact with someone's virtual baby.

Is it acceptable, since this is a VNPC baby, for a VNPC baby-snatcher to show up and steal the baby and run off, and sell it to a VNPC Borsail noble, to become a member of the VNPC slave crew? If not, why not? If so, I'd like to see more of that. Or at least..some of that. I've never seen it.  "I'll give you a hundred sids for your kid" should be a commonly heard sentence whenever a low-ranking or non-ranking city-bred commoner brings their newborn/infant around. I'd even go so far to suggest that pregnant women who are low-ranking or non-ranking should expect to see random traders and slavers coming up to them while they're still pregnant, offering them deals on the results of a healthy delivery. And - this should be _acceptable_ roleplay.

I have strong objections to killing vNPC babies, without player permisson. You can't do something like cut a PC's arm off, or do something that would otherwise drasticly affect them, without permisson. A player spent ALL that time role-playing out the pregnancy, and possibly the birth, and I think that the killing of a vNPC should be seriously considered. You could argue that you don't have to ask permission to kill a PC, and the player's put effort into them, but I think this is different. It's the vNPC world, and how do you know that a vNPC neighbor isn't there? Or that they're supposed to check on the baby and find it missing? I'm not sure I can rationalize all my feelings on this, but I really, really hate the idea of killing a PC's virtual baby, without their consent.

I would argue that because this is so much vNPC based, that staff support would also be needed, to play those vNPCs as there are any. I don't have objections to baby-stealing without approval, but I've heard of it happening where the baby isn't actually THERE, it's somewhere else, and the kidnappers claim to have stolen it anyways. Please, people, use the arrange command to show where your baby is, and change it if you move them! I'd also say that baby theft should have staff animation elements to it.

If you have a complaint about someone's depiction of the world, rp, or emoting I'd suggest following the game's rules and using the player complaint tool to address it.  

This, I agree with. While I don't think having the perfect child is good RP, I don't think power-emoted responses are justified.
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Synthesis

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 02:59:44 PM »
Oh man, this reminds me of all the shenanigans people were always pulling trying to fuck with Ysania's baby.

I think at one point, a pickpocket actually stole her baby-object from her inventory, lol.
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tortall

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2009, 05:00:36 PM »
Oh man, this reminds me of all the shenanigans people were always pulling trying to fuck with Ysania's baby.

I think at one point, a pickpocket actually stole her baby-object from her inventory, lol.

HAHA, baby objects. <3

Code: [Select]
eat baby

>
You eat part of a blue-eyed baby.

>
in

>
You are carrying:
a half-eaten blue-eyed baby

>
wish all Um, I ate my baby, can I get a new one?
You send a message to the staff: Um, I ate my baby, can I get a new one?

>
Someone snickers, pointing at you a jeering.
The man asks you:
     "'Bout damn time, lol.  She didn't bang you up too bad, did she?"
The man says, ooc:
     "OG did i jsut do that?"

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Fathi

  • Posts: 4552
Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2009, 12:17:02 AM »
Unfortunately, as long as children of PCs are a 100% virtual entity, it's going to be pretty difficult to enforce people's RP with them.

On one hand, you have the potential for a mother to RP her baby or babies being utterly perfect and born perfect and well-behaved... on the other hand, you have staff handing out baby objects with scripts attached that make them cry and poop and puke at regular intervals, with canned emotes like mounts. This is more unappealing, to me.

I'd rather deal with a few mothers whose RP seems a tad unrealistic than have a baby object that's essentially a text-based Tamagotchi.



Edit: That being said, staff animation of vnpc children is not unheard of and if you see someone whose baby needs a good kick in the ass so that it'll actually cry once in a while, I bet staff could arrange it.
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2009, 12:43:48 PM »
Quote from: Article
Zalanthas is NOT the modern day. There is little to no knowledge of sanitation or germs.

This is slightly misleading, I think.

Edited.

I'm sure a lot of this is "old hat" for some of you armers, but I lively discussion of cross-cultural childbirth rites might be helpful for others.

I don't really cover the actual giving birth, just the pregnancy, but I think that adding a mention of this into the medic/midwife section is defidently worthwhile. I'll add it to my edit to-do list. :P

Still on the "to-do list."


I DID put up a translation of pregnancy times for different races, but did NOT translate that into Trimesters. Should I? Also, I think my math is correct, but you are all welcome to look over it.
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2009, 01:03:19 PM »
I don't know that there's any documentation that claims any of the races experience trimesters at all.

It's a different planet, different biology, different laws of physics, different chemistry, different lifestyles, different physiology, and those "races" everyone talks about, aren't races. They're different species. It's like trying to claim that a dingo has the same type of gestation experience as a pomeranian, just because they're both types of dogs.

If y'all want to -create- a physiology of pregnancy among the different humanoid species of Zalanthas, that's awesome. If y'all want to use humans who live on the planet earth as a general guideline, it's probably not a bad idea. But trying to convert human terran gestation to zalanthan elven gestation just seems kinda dumb.

Elves live longer than humans in Zalanthas. However, they reach adulthood (comparatively) around the same age. So make elves take...two months and two weeks to be pregnant. Why? Why not? It's as good as any scientific study of non-existent entities. It's arbitrary, but it's also playable. For people who actually like playing pregnant people. Hey I know..make it take one RL week for ALL humanoid gestation in Armageddon. So people only have to listen to f-me's complain about their swollen (but round and perky and beautiful and perfect) nipples for a week. And make recovery from childbirth take two REAL years. Now we're talking.
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2009, 01:11:54 PM »
If y'all want to -create- a physiology of pregnancy among the different humanoid species of Zalanthas, that's awesome. If y'all want to use humans who live on the planet earth as a general guideline, it's probably not a bad idea. But trying to convert human terran gestation to zalanthan elven gestation just seems kinda dumb.

I disagree. I think that it's reasonable to make a guideline for pregnancy lengths, using proportions. I did state that we don't know if the proportions are the same, but at the same time I think it is more useful to have that chart then what it says in the main pregnancy article in the helpfiles, "gestation for non-humans maybe longer." Basically, I think this gives a good guideline.

Elves live longer than humans in Zalanthas. However, they reach adulthood (comparatively) around the same age. So make elves take...two months and two weeks to be pregnant. Why? Why not? It's as good as any scientific study of non-existent entities. It's arbitrary, but it's also playable

Actually, if you compare the minimum starting ages, there IS a difference. A human who is thirteen shares the maturity of an elf who is eighteen, or so it is reasonable to gather from the starting races. That's a five-year difference, and so it's not "around the same age."

For people who actually like playing pregnant people. Hey I know..make it take one RL week for ALL humanoid gestation in Armageddon. So people only have to listen to f-me's complain about their swollen (but round and perky and beautiful and perfect) nipples for a week. And make recovery from childbirth take two REAL years. Now we're talking.

Your other comments had merit. This is just a blatant flame, with no real purpose, or respect to the amount of work put in. Please consider the purpose of your posts before posting.

As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2009, 03:00:07 PM »
Hm, the only reference to ages I could find using the armageddon.org's built in google search, was this:
http://www.armageddon.org/help/show.php/age

It shows that elves have a lifespan 20 -years- longer than a human. So - a 5-year difference in maturity rate ain't much. Both mature as middle-teenagers.

A halfling, however, is -specified- to mature differently, with a completely different physiology. A halfling would be considered a "child" until he hits somewhere around 30 years old, and then he will have reached the average age of maturity for his race.


My point of posting, is that I think there's way too much thought put into zalanthan pregnancy than is necessary..and if you're gonna get all detailed about it, then you might as well go as far as you can. Otherwise, it's easier to just let people roleplay..or -not- roleplay..as they see fit. There's already a pregnancy document.

Most players I've seen who've played pregnant women or women with newborns, don't stick to the -existing- document. So why go through all the trouble of adding more information, when the existing information is mostly ignored?
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2009, 04:48:06 PM »
My point of posting, is that I think there's way too much thought put into zalanthan pregnancy than is necessary..and if you're gonna get all detailed about it, then you might as well go as far as you can. Otherwise, it's easier to just let people roleplay..or -not- roleplay..as they see fit. There's already a pregnancy document.

Most players I've seen who've played pregnant women or women with newborns, don't stick to the -existing- document. So why go through all the trouble of adding more information, when the existing information is mostly ignored?

They're still welcome to role-play it as they see fit. My Article does not claim to be the definitive source, nor does it claim to be something that Staff state as fact. The existing document, if you've looked at it, is very hard to read. The formatting is bad,it's hard to read, and there's also a large lack of information. It leaves alot of searching and work to the player, and it would be nice to be able to just scan over something and go "Ah, that's how it works." Which is exactly where my Article is supposed to help. Also, you're saying that many players don't stick to the existing document-- I'm hoping that this Article helps to re-enforce following what's avaliable more closely.

Hm, the only reference to ages I could find using the armageddon.org's built in google search, was this:
http://www.armageddon.org/help/show.php/age

It shows that elves have a lifespan 20 -years- longer than a human. So - a 5-year difference in maturity rate ain't much. Both mature as middle-teenagers.

A halfling, however, is -specified- to mature differently, with a completely different physiology. A halfling would be considered a "child" until he hits somewhere around 30 years old, and then he will have reached the average age of maturity for his race.

...I don't get how this is helping your point. If anything, that just further supports the idea that pregnancy lengths would be different.

Basically, the Article is supposed to provided a basis for those who DO want to role-play it out, so it's THERE for them. It's comparable to, oh, looking over a document in hand-to-hand combat to be able to role-play better your moves; the same with sword play, etc. The thing is, that those things are based on code, too. Pregnancy is entirely role-played, and I think it's important to have an idea how to role-play it, which is essentially how to do it at ALL, since there's no code around it.

If the document isn't useful to you, that's fine. It doesn't have to be. However, I still think it has merit.
As of February 2017, I no longer play Armageddon.

Whiran Luck

  • Posts: 297
Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2009, 02:43:42 AM »
I skimmed it and may have missed it, but some information on miscarrying might be good. I'd imagine there would be a large number of situations that could cause a pregnant woman -not- to carry to term, including those in militant/combatant roles (getting your body beat on repeatedly by hard implements and the trauma of physical combat probably wouldn't be good), not getting enough to eat/drink, being poisoned, eating bad food, so forth and so on.

Pale Horse

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2009, 05:44:48 AM »
I skimmed it and may have missed it, but some information on miscarrying might be good. I'd imagine there would be a large number of situations that could cause a pregnant woman -not- to carry to term, including those in militant/combatant roles (getting your body beat on repeatedly by hard implements and the trauma of physical combat probably wouldn't be good), not getting enough to eat/drink, being poisoned, eating bad food, so forth and so on.

Truth.

Rebuttal:
Zalanthan humans, imo, seem to be of a hardier breed than the average terran human.  I can't say yea or nea for elves, dwarves, etc, as there's no conterpart IRL.  Zalanthans, if indeed, are more robust and sturdier than we, I could see suffering less from miscarriages.  After all, with the death rate being so obscenely high IG, there's gotta be some good reason that there's always more people around.  Higher successful birth rates could account for this.

Then again, I've seen a couple miscarriages played out, IG.  One of which killed the PC (I still applaude said person's willingness to take it that far.  Even if they were just simply tired of their character, going out in such a way helped drive home some hard points about "life" and added a touch of realism that I admired).  As I said, the death rate on Zalanthas is obscene.  The average exposure to danger and extremes is above that which, I think, the majority of us face on a comparative daily basis, so miscarriage most likely comes about due to the same factors that affect us.  It just takes..higher amounts.  Or not.  This is a game, after all, and our RP is our own.
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2009, 09:12:37 AM »
No matter how hardy Zalanthans are..I'm guessing that being kicked/punched/slashed/stabbed/smacked repeatedly during sparring and actual combat, repeatedly, during the first few weeks of pregnancy (before you even realize you're pregnant), would *likely* result in a miscarriage, which would most likely be assumed just a really extra heavy and crampy period if you didn't know you were pregnant in the first place.

The first "phase" (trimester for earth, no idea for Zalanthas) of pregnancy, you only know for sure that you're pregnant because you took a pregnancy test. Pregnancy tests don't exist on Zalanthas. So you have to stick with what people on earth used to *guess* (and sometimes those guesses were just the result of normal/abnormal non-pregnancy hormone changes):

Swollen/sore breasts
Stomach bloating not caused by any food problem
Anemia/diarrhea
Sudden onset of acne when it didn't previously exist
Sudden clearing of pre-existing acne
Weird hair days (suddenly very oily, or suddenly very dry)
Lack of menstruation -more- than once in a row (since missing once is no sign of anything and any woman of childbearing years knows this)

Also..speaking of menstruation - I understand, agree with, and appreciate that the game doesn't make people have to go to the bathroom..pee and shit. But those are "activities" that only take a few minutes, IF someone were to roleplay them out. Menstruation takes a few days, non-stop, and causes all kinds of hormonal symptoms. Does anyone actually roleplay menstruation? If the player of a PC who gets pregnant, doesn't ever roleplay menstruation, then why even bother with a document on roleplaying pregnancy? I don't roleplay menstruation..or its hormonal effects (swelling, bloating, cramps, headaches, bleeding like a stuck pig, clots, having to change clothes often or throw blood-soaked rags away, not being able to ride, limping, overactive libido, underactive libido, zits, etc. etc. etc.). I also don't roleplay pregnancy. So at least it's consistent. Women who are fertile whose players plan for them to get pregnant, should also roleplay their fertility. Which means..menstruation and all the nasty crap that goes with it.
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sarahjc

  • Posts: 1779
Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2009, 12:07:11 PM »
I think the document is fine. I don't know if it is all that necessary, but it's a nice guide for those of us that have questions. That said, I don’t think it’s the end all be all to how people should RP that kind of thing out.

I have read the basic documentation and have worked out a few in game pregnancies just fine. Some of my PC’s have had hemorrhoids, most have had uncontrollable bladders, all have had morning sickness and mood swings, bloated feet, hands and backpain, some have had stretch marks, some haven’t.

My current PC is rocking a 50/50. Out of 4 pregnancies, she produced 2 children, one of which came out sickly, the other healthy and fine.  With the sickly child, the PC herself nearly died and took an IC month to recover. The other two were miscarried. Through all of them, she drank, smoked and in general lived her life as she always did, until she was too fat to do anything but sit around.

I think death is a real and dangerous consequence of pregnancy in uneducated cultures. I roll a dice to see how my PC’s pregnancy will turn out, then I give another dice roll to see how her birth will work out.

There is also the question of what to do with the child after your PC’s death.  On a former PC of mine, she was the rangy type of danger seeker that could bite it at any moment, so was her kid’s father.  When they got preggers, they knew they weren’t the type to raise children, but they were decently wealthy for commoners. They paid a merchant house a healthy sum to take their kid and raise it for them with a certain amount of creature comfort. They would also pay other PC’s to watch the kid while they were out.

What is kinda cool is, while that PC is long gone and dead, my current PC occasionally runs into someone who speaks about my old PC’s kid. So the Vnpc is now an actual part of the game, and not something that statically just disappeared.

To sum up, I think that it’s personal preference how you RP pregnancy, as long as you stay within the time constraints, and I think it’s responsible RP to deal with a child in a realistic way.  Children are life changing, and should be a part of your PC’s every day thoughts and life, though it shouldn’t ruin your enjoyment of the game.
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spawnloser

  • Posts: 7313
Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2009, 02:04:37 PM »
Also..speaking of menstruation - I understand, agree with, and appreciate that the game doesn't make people have to go to the bathroom..pee and shit. But those are "activities" that only take a few minutes, IF someone were to roleplay them out. Menstruation takes a few days, non-stop, and causes all kinds of hormonal symptoms. Does anyone actually roleplay menstruation? If the player of a PC who gets pregnant, doesn't ever roleplay menstruation, then why even bother with a document on roleplaying pregnancy? I don't roleplay menstruation..or its hormonal effects (swelling, bloating, cramps, headaches, bleeding like a stuck pig, clots, having to change clothes often or throw blood-soaked rags away, not being able to ride, limping, overactive libido, underactive libido, zits, etc. etc. etc.). I also don't roleplay pregnancy. So at least it's consistent. Women who are fertile whose players plan for them to get pregnant, should also roleplay their fertility. Which means..menstruation and all the nasty crap that goes with it.
This.  FUCKING this.

Have any of you ever seen the Maury Show?  Yes, I know it's horrible day-time television, but I work nights and something even vaguely amusing in the background while I'm mudding is good.  Anyway, occasionally they have a show with the wild teen daughters out of control where those said immature little girls wants a baby.  You people that roleplay pregnancy and having the baby remind me of this because you, like those little girls, are only dealing with less than 10% of the experience.  You wanna do it, do it.  Don't do it half-ass.  Oh, sure, I've seen the occasional person bitching and moaning about blah blah blah, waddling around... that discomfort.  But that's only the tip of the iceberg.

THEN we get to the point where you have the kid.  Your character, in some cases, has no support structure to take care of the kid so you must have it on you at all times.  I know of a character that literally DID have the baby with the character at all times, including when getting into combat... and at that time, conveniently forgot that some of those stabs and the like may just hit and kill this fragile creature that's 1/6th the size of the parent.  What about those nights the kid is colicky and your character didn't get any sleep so is grouchy?  Have the baby with you?  Why doesn't it spit up all over you shoulder... probably for the same reason the bird that's spent the last two years of its life on your other shoulder has taken a crap in all that time, you're forgetting most of the unpleasant portions and only remembering the fun stuff.
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 7959
Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2009, 02:19:52 PM »
Right - and yet, when *I* emote laughing at the bird taking a shit on the hunter's shoulder, *I* get in trouble for power-playing.

How about the hunter getting in trouble for powerplaying, for NOT taking his environment, including the fact that his silt-horror sleeves SHOULD be covered in bird shit by now, into consideration when HE roleplays his bird's existence?

And then there's the whole commoner who complains she never has sids, who doesn't work for a noble house that has actually arranged to take care of her kid..suddenly showing up in the bar without her kid and claiming she hired a wet-nurse for it.

Um..you just told everyone you can't afford to fix your torn and tattered skirt..but you can hire a wet-nurse? Hope you don't mind if I cry foul OOCly, and ICly accuse you of being a mindbender for convincing a wet-nurse to suckle your kid for free.
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flurry

  • Posts: 3360
Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2009, 02:37:29 PM »
Of all the roleplay topics that come up on the GDB, this one seems to be unique in its ability to stir up a chorus of "shoulds".

My best advice is just do the research you need to do, and play it out the way you see fit, to the best of your ability. In fiction, you're rarely going to see absolute realism in this area, because there's a higher goal of telling a compelling story. There's a vast difference between being believable and being meticulously clinical.

If you think everyone else is doing it wrong, step up and do it right. Be the change.
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Comrade Canadia

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2009, 02:50:47 PM »
This thread seems to have been hijacked into a soapbox for attacks on others' roleplay while espousing ridiculous, over-exaggerated solutions in order to prove a point. Not constructive.

I'll try to address OP's article here:

I think that your list of symptoms should be a little less definitive. I've known several pregnant women who show some, all, or some entirely different symptoms than the ones listed. Being a guy I'm hardly an expert, but I'm under the impression that the symptoms vary wildly from woman to woman with a few consistencies.

Mentioning infant mortality rate may be something to keep in mind. If you do, I think it'd be best to describe it as a potential character development tool for your PC, rather than your child being doomed.

In tribal cultures, it's very likely that children are cared for an raised by the community as much as the parent. Convenient way to ditch your virtual baby for a while. Although that would actually delve into the realm of child care, which I think is beyond the scope of the article?

Still, it's clearly written, makes sense, and I think it'll be useful to people who are interested in RPing pregnancy.  Good job!
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2009, 02:54:02 PM »
My way of doing it right, is to avoid doing it at all. I've had -one- character get pregnant. I stored her because I was disgusted with the whole character concept. My characters are all either infertile, homosexual, male, or virtually, permanently, fixed with mul mix. For the exact reason that I can't -stand- pregnancy/newborn-mommy roleplay. I would never want to impose it on anyone else, the way I've seen it imposed on me.
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2009, 05:30:48 PM »
Thank you for the comments about the actual article.

I may go back and add some of the suggested things. As to be too specific on symptoms, I try to say that your PC may experiance them, not that they for 100% certain will, and I think it's better to show a bigger picture since it makes it easier for someone considering RPing a pregnancy, since there's less to look up, then. I do like the mention of families taking care of babies, I think adding something about that would probably be good.

I would like to say that if you guys want to make a DERAIL in a seperate thread about role-playing pregnancy, birds, etc., that's fine, but let's try to stay on focus here! Which is to say, is the information in the Article helpful? What else would you like to see? What do you think is good or bad?

I'm thinking that a sperate article on child care and raising children might actually be better, as it is a different, if related topic. Also, the article would get to be even longer then it is now, which is long enough, I think.
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Comrade Canadia

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2009, 06:13:35 PM »
I think I may bite the bullet and start a thread on child-care in the roleplaying section. I'm terrified it's going to suffer the same fate as this thread, but it's a useful discussion. Maybe a good guide can come out of it.

-- As for the symptoms thing, I think you imply that these aren't a hard and fast list, but it may be better to outright state it. The guide's tone isn't authoritative, but I could see somebody misinterpreting it as such.
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Whiran Luck

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2009, 06:52:40 PM »
Yeah, while I think some people bring up good points, they should probably be made in their own thread in the Roleplaying section.

As far as the guide goes:

I think it's pretty well written as far as last I read it, though I -still- think as far as pregnancy realism is concerned (and that seems to be what the guide addresses), there should be a section on the difficulties of carrying a child to term in a low tech environment where women are equal. I.E. things to think about when you're pregnant, like not sparring, not poisoning yourself and generally making sure you are well supplied with food and water.

As for me personally, if someone wants to roleplay pregnancy and get a virtual wetnurse or whatever, it's fine by me. It doesn't really impact me, and if I am a leader in a clan where my female employees are showing up pregnant and not able to do the job they were hired for, then they'd be out on their ass for not being useful (if they had nothing else but their use to keep them tied to me.)

But if people want to play the pregnant woman, realistically or not, it's no different from the hundred other situations people can handle in the game, realistically or not. So whatever floats people's boats. :) That said, don't ever feel bad about threatening to kill and/or eat people's babies.

Yseulte

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2009, 09:54:54 PM »
I have to agree with Lizzie here in the whole pregnancy thing. It is a lot of work to pull it off realistically.

Sadly I see a real common habit of players who are instantly pregnant and know that day ICly after just having sex or I see pregnancy that is too quick, no side effects, practically a cake walk or even more often I see vNPC babies played wrong. Sorry, but a two month old does not laugh at jokes, wave cheerfully, or able to grasp and eat meat on their own. So PLEASE can someone add a emboldened section of realistic stages that vNPC babies go through, what babies can and cannot do in both physical, mental and emotional means.

I would like to see pregnancy require consent. This is a game, and I will make it real clear that this desire has nothing to do with my off-game views on the matter. My only concern is that if I was to play a male PC, my entire enjoyment of the game could potentially be altered for better or (likely) worse because this other player decides that he/she would like their character knocked up. Yes, I could just avoid the offspring, but if its not IC for my character, then I am stuck in a position I don't want to necessarily be in as a player.
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tortall

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2009, 11:34:04 PM »
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35641.0.html

Go there for any other discussion other than ON THE ARTICLE ITSELF. Thank you.
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Yseulte

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2009, 11:48:29 PM »
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35641.0.html

Go there for any other discussion other than ON THE ARTICLE ITSELF. Thank you.

It is on the article, if you read anything of it. I want to see a chapter in the pregnancy article on REALISM in the playing of vNPC babies so that I as a player do not have to suffer someone's ignorance on the abilities and inabilities of a newborn/baby/toddler.

And yes. Consent has every bit of a place in the pregnancy article. Torture, rape, sex effects my ability to play my role. If I don't want to suffer being a parent in game, it should NOT be pushed on me just like those others can not be. It is perfectly IC for my character to want to have sex, to want to have a family, but I as a player, do not want it. To just decide for me that you want my character to be a parent, will ruin my enjoyment. I have seen infertile males who admit to being infertile both IC and OOC and yet the female PC's player will have ignored this so they can have their vNPC child which goes against the male PC player's wish.

It is not a derail as this is what I want seen to be a part of the article as this is a discussion area for said article.
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Dalmeth

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2009, 12:40:57 AM »
My only concern is that if I was to play a male PC, my entire enjoyment of the game could potentially be altered for better or (likely) worse because this other player decides that he/she would like their character knocked up. Yes, I could just avoid the offspring, but if its not IC for my character, then I am stuck in a position I don't want to necessarily be in as a player.

Bolded disagreement part. If you don't want to "accidentally" have kids, then don't kank IG. Simple as that. Or if your PC is freaked out by kids, make SURE the woman is taking mul mix, and takes it BEFORE EVERY time.


I have more arguments against what has been said in that thread, but I'll leave it at that.

This is something that should be considered for, if not addressed in this pregnancy article.

In real life, pregnancy is a consequence.  It's a chance.  This game we play is not reality, and there are no coded mechanisms for pregnancy.   In this game, pregnancy is always a choice.  That is, a choice you can inflict on other players.

Zalanthas is not so different from earth that you can have knock up a woman with no strings attached.  There's usually baggage, and that baggage can be depressing, irritating, or even quite fun.  It depends.  So when wanting to engage in this kind of RP, as in the case of the sexually explicit and torture, it is courteous to ask for the other PC's consent.  It's just not staff enforced.

Simply put, parentage is not a coded feature of this game, so I shouldn't have to put up with it if I don't want to.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 12:50:51 AM by Dalmeth »
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Fathi

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2009, 01:57:33 AM »
I want to see a chapter in the pregnancy article on REALISM in the playing of vNPC babies so that I as a player do not have to suffer someone's ignorance on the abilities and inabilities of a newborn/baby/toddler.

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Comrade Canadia

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2009, 01:26:03 PM »
Yseulte, you wouldn't be pissing everyone off if your tone was a little more constructive. What I'm reading is "BABIES ARE BAD EVERYONE IS A CRAP ROLEPLAYER BUT ME"  kind of language. Are you honestly curious as to why people are getting upset?

You could have easily phrased something like "There should be a section on whether or not to choose to get pregnant, considering the effects on other players, and recognizing potential for infertility in your partner." Frankly, I agree. It's not a bad thing to consider.

This thread is everything wrong with the GDB. Although it appears the majority of players who've posted are interested in discussing and improving the article, we get two or three people flooding the thread with these poisonous rants that derail everything into personal attacks, rather than arguments about what should go in the article. We're a community and we should be cooperating, not pissing all over one another.

That said, I think a section on choosing to become pregnant, and what that means to yourself and any RP partner is something absolutely worth considering.
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Yseulte

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2009, 05:33:53 PM »
Yseulte, you wouldn't be pissing everyone off if your tone was a little more constructive. What I'm reading is "BABIES ARE BAD EVERYONE IS A CRAP ROLEPLAYER BUT ME"  kind of language. Are you honestly curious as to why people are getting upset?

I did not realize anyone was getting upset. Dalmeth sure doesn't appear upset, nor Fathi. And if you follow the derail discussion, not everyone is against the consent idea and believe me, there are many, many players who have had moments of being disgusted by how some players have handled playing out their vNPC babies which would be why I requested a very specific article attachment for that realism.

This is not a rant, it is what I see lacking in the article, and as this is a discussion on what we as players would like to see, I pointed out my desire. The problem with text is people tend to read into it what they want in terms of tone. Though in terms of tone, I was quite at ease in my posts and had no reason to be upset. In Tortall's derail she implied that my post had nothing to do with this article discussion so I kindly pointed out her mistake with valid points. People can and do speak calmly even when they have opposing ideas.
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aruna

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2009, 07:52:43 PM »
Capitalizing and bolding text to make a point that could be just as easily made without isn't generally considered calm, I think.

Edit: I dig the article, and I think people should be able to roleplay their pregnancies and their children the way they would like to, as long as it's reasonably within the bounds of realism.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 07:55:51 PM by aruna »

Yseulte

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2009, 07:59:00 PM »
Capitalizing and bolding text to make a point that could be just as easily made without isn't generally considered calm, I think.

Sure it is. It is meant to be emphasized, to encourage that each emboldened word be the drawing point. Would you say using '-this-' shows a lack of calm? No. It does exactly the same thing as emboldening a word. I'm sure if I was not calm or wanted to come off as being angry, well I might just enlarge the font to extreme measures and add a bunch of !!! or something such as that.
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Jia

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2009, 08:05:38 PM »
Taven -  Nice article, appreciate the work you've put in (though I doubt I'll ever play a pregnant woman)

Lizzie -  Whoa, bitter much?

SarahJC -  Commendable RP, I'd like to see a lot more of this

Yseulte -  Totally agree that this should be consented, there are circumstances in RL which would make this not cool, and lead to storing, and such

Also, emboldened text means you're mad?  People get mad at computer screens?  Heheheh.
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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2009, 08:05:58 PM »
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35641.0.html

Go there for any other discussion other than ON THE ARTICLE ITSELF. Thank you.

Thank you.

It is on the article, if you read anything of it. I want to see a chapter in the pregnancy article on REALISM in the playing of vNPC babies so that I as a player do not have to suffer someone's ignorance on the abilities and inabilities of a newborn/baby/toddler.

Thanks for the imput, but I think I already adressed that, at least.

I'm thinking that a sperate article on child care and raising children might actually be better, as it is a different, if related topic. Also, the article would get to be even longer then it is now, which is long enough, I think.

I think I may bite the bullet and start a thread on child-care in the roleplaying section. I'm terrified it's going to suffer the same fate as this thread, but it's a useful discussion. Maybe a good guide can come out of it.

-- As for the symptoms thing, I think you imply that these aren't a hard and fast list, but it may be better to outright state it. The guide's tone isn't authoritative, but I could see somebody misinterpreting it as such.

I'll add it to the "to change list," and if you do start up that other topic, feel free to post a link here, it sounds like a good idea.


I want to see a chapter in the pregnancy article on REALISM in the playing of vNPC babies so that I as a player do not have to suffer someone's ignorance on the abilities and inabilities of a newborn/baby/toddler.

I wrote one of these once. I'll post it for ya.

I'd like to see this, too. Links are still loved, for easy finding.

Capitalizing and bolding text to make a point that could be just as easily made without isn't generally considered calm, I think.

Sure it is. It is meant to be emphasized, to encourage that each emboldened word be the drawing point. Would you say using '-this-' shows a lack of calm? No. It does exactly the same thing as emboldening a word. I'm sure if I was not calm or wanted to come off as being angry, well I might just enlarge the font to extreme measures and add a bunch of !!! or something such as that.

On topic, please.

I understand you're just trying to reply to what's been said, but this will continue  forever if someone doesn't take the high road and stop.

Edit: The post box is being weird, and I can't see what I'm typing easily, so I went back to make some edits for spelling.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 09:59:18 PM by Taven »
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AmandaGreathouse

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2009, 08:45:29 PM »
Taven -  Nice article, appreciate the work you've put in (though I doubt I'll ever play a pregnant woman)

Lizzie -  Whoa, bitter much?

SarahJC -  Commendable RP, I'd like to see a lot more of this

Yseulte -  Totally agree that this should be consented, there are circumstances in RL which would make this not cool, and lead to storing, and such

Also, emboldened text means you're mad?  People get mad at computer screens?  Heheheh.

This exactly.

I always ask the other person for consent to roll and see if she's pregnant. First, their PC may very well be sterile, and second, with my first PC I know I messed up a lot of another PC's fun making mine pregnant without consent. I'm still sorry for having done that. I personally feel it shouldn't be necessary to do it, but I would like the same consideration shown to me if I ever choose to make a male PC.
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sarahjc

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2009, 04:50:02 AM »
You know, I've never thought of asking for consent from the other player. I've always just seen it as the risk they take when getting down. To me, if they didn't want to make babies, then they should probably keep the baby maker tucked away. 

But now that I think about it, it's probably a curtesy that should be considered if only for the reason that the other PC could be sterile.
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Pale Horse

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2009, 05:39:03 AM »
You know, I've never thought of asking for consent from the other player. I've always just seen it as the risk they take when getting down. To me, if they didn't want to make babies, then they should probably keep the baby maker tucked away. 

But now that I think about it, it's probably a curtesy that should be considered if only for the reason that the other PC could be sterile.

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Taven

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2009, 06:17:34 PM »

This is, browsing over the thread, things that should be done, or are suggested.

*Add mention of tdesc to article
*Magick and birth
*Cultural Birth Factors
*Pictures of pregnancy in various stages
*Playability of vNPC baby
*Baby farmers
*OOC pregnancy consent
*Edit of half-elf ages and birth time approximation
*Miscarrage info
*Adding that this is guideline, and may not get all "symptoms"
*More restrictions/how pregnancy would effect life details/ideas

I think that making a section for the actual birth would be good, if only an outline. I think that there's enough there that needs to be covered for a seperate article, and I think that childcare/rasing a baby article would be good, too. I'll try to go in and add some of this, and let you know when that's done.

You're all welcome to tackle the other articles, or get a start on them.
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shadeoux

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2009, 11:15:31 PM »
As far as women in the article, I see the valid points from all sides, however, there is still this fact for men,
what about sympathy weight, I know when my ex had our first son -I- put on fourty pounds of sympathy weight the doctors called it.
fourty pounds, and I promptly lost it once he was born
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Lizzie

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2009, 06:41:52 AM »
Within this pregnancy article (I checked the derail thread, but it's turned into magickers and whether or not they're slaves so this doesn't go there)...

I'd like to see a reminder of the overall, general sexual ambivalence in Zalanthas. By and large, mutually exclusive male-female life-bonding mate situations are not as common as more casual mating. That goes for pregnant women as well. I would enjoy seeing a paragraph in this doc, reminding people that it is -not- normal, for a woman learning she is pregnant, to use her pregnancy in attempt to "keep her mate." Her mate might or might not have any interest in providing for the baby, and *either* decision is normal in the world of Zalanthas. No one would think of him as a brute, or uncaring, or cold-hearted, for saying "pregnant? That's nice. I gotta go, my girlfriend in the other city is waiting for me. Smoochy smoochy, see you in a couple of months."

It is equally common for a man to -want- to maintain the relationship and help rear the baby. But I've seen several modern soap opera scenes crop up in the game, and it makes me really just want to change the channel.
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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2009, 05:54:07 PM »
I haven't squeezed that in yet, Lizzi, but I like the suggestion. It's sad that it's needed, but I think that it's good to have there.

Meanwhile, does anyone have any suggestions for the "Ancient Practices" subsection?
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Flawed

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2010, 02:54:19 PM »
Thread Resurrection!

So from the helpfile. 40 weeks for a full pregnancy with 7 days a week. That is 280 days for a full pregnancy.

280 Zalanathas days = 2.5 weeks irl.

But according to some thing somewhere, it should be 5 weeks irl. Someone tell me how it translates into 2 IC months please? That is like over 460 days in pregnancy. Sure, Zalanthas days are shorter than earth days...

...

Zalanthas women are giving birth to unnaturally large aliens?
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AmandaGreathouse

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2010, 03:10:37 PM »
No, this is how it breaks down. The earth year is about equal to the zalanthan year. Not the same of days and months. So you take 3/4 of the earth year to get nine months. 3/4 of the zalanthan year is 2.25 months (roughly). It actually breaks down so that it's, I can't recall, either 1.9 or 2.12 zalanthan days of pregnancy that equal an earth day. Let's say you are the equivalent of 1 earth month pregnant. 30 days.

Earth pregnancy = 280 days

Zalanthan pregnancy = 532 days.

280 into 532 = 1.9

Multiply 1.9 X 30 = 57.

So you'd likely get your first clues 57 days after conception, etc etc etc.

I've spent way too much time working on all this already.
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Flawed

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2010, 04:04:32 PM »
There are only 12 hours in a Zalanthas day?

I'm still trying to catch up on how fast the body metabolism has to be to keep to a routine of 12 hours in a day.

Since Zalanthas men/women recover fast, (aka, injury miracles) you'd think the pregnancy cycle would be similarly paced. How come men always have things easier?
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AmandaGreathouse

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Re: Discussion of Pregnancy Article
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2010, 04:14:00 PM »
It's not 12 hours, even. It's 9 hours. The hours aren't necessarily on a par with earth hours, either. The only part in the helpfiles for time that says it's similar to measures on earth is the length of the year. And it's 7 hours of light, 2 hours of dark, for whatever that's worth.

And they don't always have things easier. :) They typically wind up like 2-4 male pcs for a female pc. Plus... I've never played a male pc myself, but I've watched my husband. Believe me, on the commoner level, female pcs have it easier.
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