Author Topic: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem  (Read 7616 times)

evil_erdlu

  • Posts: 437
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2009, 11:06:10 AM »
Rhyden, I think my point was clearly made... why can someone be content to play a tavern-sitting, non-practicing mundane but as soon as they're playing a magicker, they feel the need or compulsion to go practice their spells?  What's the difference?

Of course I am not Rhyden, but I guess I can offer my own point of view.

I played my two magickers to see the magick. I wondered, "Yeah.. Rukkian.. Ruk Mage.. He can cause earthquakes? What's the deal with the creature he summoned in this log? (Original Submissions Log) I'd love to experience such a play...". If I wanted to have a tavern sitter, I'd make a merchant with a nice, suitable subguild to the area like jeweler, tailor, armorcrafter or stonecarver and I'd have a reason to be tavern-sitting. I'd be able to interact more and with more ease and I'd even be able to change the world by getting involved in merchant house politics if I wanted to.

Why would anyone play a magicker for any reason but experience the supernatural side of Zalanthas? And for that, yes; you "cast 'nil kral ruk <a> <b>'" for some time every day you play. You will of course add hobbies, quirks, phobias and similar depth to the character but the character will still cast, if it's willing to see new spells opened in its "skills magick".
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 8192
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2009, 11:33:07 AM »
Yeah that kind of confused me too. When I played my first ranger, the first thing I wanted to do, was..tavern sit?

No. It was learn how to hunt something down, and maybe see what kind of food I'd find when I typed "forage food."

When I made my first merchant, it was my first character. At that point, the help file did -not- say that merchant_guild had any crafts at all. I got it for the piloting, cause I thought it'd be a kick to have my own wagon and drive it around the world. When I wasn't using my bow and arrow and shooting wildlife for supper, with my subguild. I got sucked into Salarr and that was the end of that brilliant idea, but honestly the last thing on my mind when I rolled her up was tavern-sitting.

When I made my first burglar, my OOC goal was to acquire a lockpick within my first RL week of playing, get into a criminal organization, and get to picking locks. Tavern-sitting was only one very specific criteria of that goal...to meet someone in a criminal organization who would point me in the direction of the nearest lockpick-selling shop.

When I made my first magicker, it was because I wanted to learn about magicks, from the caster's side of things. I already knew about all kinds of magicks from the observer's point of view, from previous PCs who had IC reason to hang out with those types.

When I pick a guild and subguild, it's BECAUSE of the skills that come with those guilds and subguilds. If I didn't care about the skills, I'd just pick #1 on all options and not ever worry about what my character can, and cannot do. I wouldn't care that I've gotten a few karma points.

I pick these things because they have skills I *want* to explore and examine. If I didn't care, I'd play a mush.
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spawnloser

  • Posts: 7313
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2009, 11:44:39 AM »
But you can tavern sit AND do that too.  I have met and/or played characters that were fully-branched or close to being so that still tavern sat as much as the next guy... and this was a regular thing, not just something that developed after branching.

...unless you consider tavern-sitting to be doing nothing but sitting around the tavern.  Thing is, to do that crafting you mentioned, you probably wouldn't be sitting at the bar doing this.  Why can't you hunt and tavern sit?  Magick and tavern sit?  Same as merchant and tavern sit.
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 8192
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2009, 11:52:31 AM »
But you can tavern sit AND do that too.  I have met and/or played characters that were fully-branched or close to being so that still tavern sat as much as the next guy... and this was a regular thing, not just something that developed after branching.

...unless you consider tavern-sitting to be doing nothing but sitting around the tavern.  Thing is, to do that crafting you mentioned, you probably wouldn't be sitting at the bar doing this.  Why can't you hunt and tavern sit?  Magick and tavern sit?  Same as merchant and tavern sit.

Because with magicks, *some* of those spells, when you want to see their actual affects or benefit from them, require that you have them "on" you for awhile. And during those periods of time, it's not a wise idea to be seen in public, or by anyone else who isn't also a magicker. And sometimes, not even by any of those.

So sometimes, you're just stuck, NOT tavern sitting, waiting for something to wear off. And you really don't necessarily want, or need, to go hunting, or spam-craft your 4000th obsidian dagger. But you know that if you spam-cast spell#473, there's a chance you might actually branch the spell that you use to "undo" those spells that you get stuck with for hours on end, because you had no idea how long that last one was gonna take...because you'd never casted that particular spell before.. and then, after you had casted it before, you were careful...and didn't experiment on yourself with it..until that one day when you were at the highest level it could be at and you were just so damned curious and HAD to see what would happen...and lo and behold, it's a spell that lasts 4 RL hours at that level. So you're stuck in the temple for the next 4 RL hours and your character's buddies don't log on Sunday mornings.

GEE WHIZ should I RP masturbating again, for the benefit of the lone Sunday morning Overlord who REALLY doesn't want to have to see my pitiful masturbation emotes? OR...should I just say fuck it and spam cast for a couple of hours since I'm stuck there anyway with no one to RP with?
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Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13005
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2009, 11:59:59 AM »
I love debating magicker issues on the GDB.  I want to comment again in this thread, I really do, but I can't figure out exactly what we're arguing right now.

Is it about whether or not you can be a successful mage and still have time to socialize?

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8192
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2009, 12:08:15 PM »
It's more of a matter of this perception:

IF you only have a limited amount of time to play per day,

AND IF you want to actually get your magicker's skills to the point where they're useful in a functional way for the average life of the average magicker freak...

THEN you are often put in a position of having to decide between tavern sitting or casting.

AND...

Some people feel that magickers can be just like anyone else, and tavern sit.

HOWEVER

Some people feel that magickers AREN'T like anyone else, because of the nature of their skills, and tavern sitting isn't something they can "just do" any time they want, WITHOUT preparing in advance to neglect their "studies."

You have to NOT be casting for a couple of hours, prior to showing up in a tavern, with regards to certain spells and experimentation. That means if you only have a couple of hours to play, then you -cannot- both cast those specific spells AND expect to tavern sit, in the same RL day.

This makes some people sad. And this is something other people refuse to acknowledge is an actual situation that can come up. And some people make too much fuss about how it IS an actual situation, and pretend it is a constant issue that they can -never- get out of.

I, on the other hand, am the voice of reason. Yes, it can be an issue. Yes, the issue can be frustrating and make a magicker player sad. But no, it isn't a constant issue, and it -is- possible to be a caster and a tavern sitter, and progress with magicks, if you only have a couple of hours to play per day. And no, it doesn't involve NEVER using the "normal" spell, and only using the "non-effective" version of the spell. It just involves..some days doing this, some days doing that, some days doing only a little tiny bit of this, and mostly that. It takes strategy. Just like if your character is a noble, who has a rinthi lover, and you have to sneak around the rinth to see your rinthi lover without getting caught. You have to change out of those silks, dood. There's just no way around it. And that means you have to have a plan.
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Eloran

  • Posts: 1001
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2009, 12:17:18 PM »
You have to NOT be casting for a couple of hours, prior to showing up in a tavern, with regards to certain spells and experimentation. That means if you only have a couple of hours to play, then you -cannot- both cast those specific spells AND expect to tavern sit, in the same RL day.

People who use this line of thought really don't know what they're talking about, or are exaggerating to the point of lying.

It -is- possible to be a caster and a tavern sitter, and progress with magicks, if you only have a couple of hours to play per day.

Exactly.

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2009, 12:19:53 PM »
And this is why magickers should be able to dispel their own spells from themselves.  Just make a "dispel" command that works like "vis" or "land" (for appropriate situations): when you type "dispel," any magick you cast on yourself disappears.  Magick cast by others, beneficial or not, is unaffected by the dispel command, and will require other means to rid yourself of.
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Eloran

  • Posts: 1001
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2009, 12:23:59 PM »
And this is why magickers should be able to dispel their own spells from themselves.  Just make a "dispel" command that works like "vis" or "land" (for appropriate situations): when you type "dispel," any magick you cast on yourself disappears.  Magick cast by others, beneficial or not, is unaffected by the dispel command, and will require other means to rid yourself of.

No.

No.

NO NO NO NO NO.

A thousand times no.

Magickers do not need the ability to dispel their own spells. If you don't want your buffs lasting five hours, don't spam stack them.

Problem solved.

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2009, 12:25:51 PM »
And this is why magickers should be able to dispel their own spells from themselves.  Just make a "dispel" command that works like "vis" or "land" (for appropriate situations): when you type "dispel," any magick you cast on yourself disappears.  Magick cast by others, beneficial or not, is unaffected by the dispel command, and will require other means to rid yourself of.

No.

No.

NO NO NO NO NO.

A thousand times no.

Magickers do not need the ability to dispel their own spells. If you don't want your buffs lasting five hours, don't spam stack them.

Problem solved.

There are spells that last that long without being stacked at all.  Some are malevolent spells, and I agree that those shouldn't be able to be shrugged off.  Others are beneficial spells that may be necessary for survival for a mage in certain situations.  I've played a mage in the past who needed to cast spells like that on himself at a high power level to survive, and found himself locked outside of the gates for IC days as a result because nobody was around who could dispel them for him.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:28:51 PM by NoteworthyFellow »
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

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Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13005
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2009, 12:28:11 PM »
Ah.  I retired my last gemmer precisely because I didn't have enough time to advance magick skills as fast as I wanted and maintain an entertaining social life.

Well, also because I thought the game was ending in 8 months and wanted to spend more of that time playing in the social structures I enjoy most, figuring there'd be plenty of time to spam-cast (or perhaps not even a need to) in Arm 2.


Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2009, 12:30:35 PM »
Ah.  I retired my last gemmer precisely because I didn't have enough time to advance magick skills as fast as I wanted and maintain an entertaining social life.

Well, also because I thought the game was ending in 8 months and wanted to spend more of that time playing in the social structures I enjoy most, figuring there'd be plenty of time to spam-cast (or perhaps not even a need to) in Arm 2.


Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

I don't necessarily mean it for practicing.  A magick protection spell cast at a high enough power level will last for OOC hours, and there are plenty of times when using a spell like that on oneself is the only way to survive a situation.  Should a gemmer then be locked out of Allanak for OOC hours because he had to use powerful magick on himself and couldn't take it off himself?  That's like not letting a warrior sheath his sword for hours after a battle without the help of a different guild while simultaneously making it illegal to have a weapon unsheathed in the city.
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spawnloser

  • Posts: 7313
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2009, 12:33:17 PM »
And most don't.  You can cast without having to have effects lingering for long and the experimentation?  Yeah, sure, you can't experiment with some things and then go tavern sit, but them's the breaks.  Just like you can't socialize with all your friends after escorting (insert person here) to (insert other city here) when playing certain roles... or you can't socialize in certain areas because you're wanted when in other roles...

All roles have certain limitations, usually because of roleplay/in-game reasons.  You have to learn those in-game limitations, the IC limitations, and learn to play with them and think about surmounting them in IC ways.  Then your playing the guild and playing the role won't conflict so much.
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Eloran

  • Posts: 1001
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2009, 12:33:32 PM »
Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

This. Use nil, that's what it's for.

Quote from: NWF
I've played a mage in the past who needed to cast spells like that on himself at a high power level to survive, and found himself locked outside of the gates for IC days as a result because nobody was around who could dispel them for him.

I gotta call bs.

In my exerience with mages, I've never had a spell cast once last for "IC days" at a time. Days? Days?

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2009, 12:35:02 PM »
In my exerience with mages, I've never had a spell cast once last for "IC days" at a time. Days? Days?

I wish I could give you an example, I really do.  Unfortunately, I'm not allowed.

To clarify my point, I'd also be okay with shortening the duration of the spells in-question.  Usually, one has plenty of time to regenerate mana between when one casts the spell and when it could reasonably wear off.  I wouldn't mind having to cast it again because it wore off in less than an OOC hour and a half.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:36:33 PM by NoteworthyFellow »
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

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Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13005
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2009, 12:35:55 PM »
Magick isn't a sword, though.  It's much more powerful and I think it's good that its usage has consequences, particularly at higher levels.

Though, I will admit that I believe that a few of the magick guilds deserve ranger quit after branching certain spells.

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2009, 12:37:54 PM »
Though, I will admit that I believe that a few of the magick guilds deserve ranger quit after branching certain spells.

Oh, man, that would be so nice.  Of course, I envy ranger quit with every guild I play, to the point that I rarely play mundanes that aren't rangers anymore, just because I love (and often need) the ability to quit (almost) whenever and wherever I need to.  So, my opinion here is more selfish and biased than usual, and that's saying something.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:40:05 PM by NoteworthyFellow »
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

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Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2009, 12:51:31 PM »
NoteworthyFellow is correct:  there is at least one spell whose effect will last 3-3.5 RL hours when cast at sul or mon.  Yes, it is a certain guild's "signature" spell, that basically must be used in order to survive any confrontation, which means every time you go out the gates, you have to cast it, putting you on the hook for 3-3.5 RL hours.  It is incredibly annoying.

However, this topic has already been debated ad nauseum, and the thread was locked.
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Salt Merchant

  • Posts: 1663
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2009, 01:02:52 PM »
Quote
However, this topic has already been debated ad nauseum, and the thread was locked.

Exactly, people have been debating all things magicker for three years now, and -nothing- has changed (save that clan options for gemmed have been reduced). These debates are clearly futile and should cease, since all they accomplish is to stir up ill-will.

Lunch makes me happy.

NoteworthyFellow

  • Posts: 1196
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2009, 01:03:39 PM »
However, this topic has already been debated ad nauseum, and the thread was locked.

Quite true.

For some reason, I feel like I started that thread, too.

Anyway, I'd also argue on the basis of internal consistency: there are at least three spells I know of, all of which belonging to the same element, that even mundanes can self-dispel with commands that are available to everyone.  The only way I've thought of (or had explained to me) in which one can roleplay that is that it's simply willing the effect away.  Why doesn't that work for other beneficial effects?  I can understand if magick isn't supposed to be internally consistent, but that bugged me a bit for a while.

Anyway, I'll be content to let this derail drop given the history of the topic.

These debates are clearly futile and should cease, since all they accomplish is to stir up ill-will.

You're probably right.
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."

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RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19160
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2009, 01:31:25 PM »
I thought we were talking about how low playing times, plus the nature in which magick progression works, doesn't allow for socializing. Not to mention that because of magickers hated, and loathed status, it colors every one of your interactions in a certain way, further disallowing socialization. Every time A magicker walks out of their hole, they should be expecting conflict. While this isn't a bad thing, it makes it to where I'd rather sit and practice my magick skills, than to go out and get yet another dozen scornful looks, or simply be ignored.

The problem is that magickers usually only get one sort of socialization, and to get past that a lot of interacting with other players is required. Which is not possible with low playing times.




hyzhenhok

  • Posts: 1664
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2009, 01:50:59 PM »
Aren't magickers supposed to be difficult to play anyway? That's why they're karma-restricted.

A magicker should be forced to socialize in a fundamentally different way than mundanes. Complaints that it's hard to both practice your skills and have "normal" social interactions seems to indicated to me that things are as they should be.

If you OOCly don't like the lonely, solitary reality that is the life of a Zalanthan magicker, don't play one.

evil_erdlu

  • Posts: 437
Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2009, 02:15:00 PM »
- First of all, a lot of spells last more 40+ RL minutes at 'wek'. Think of 'mon'. There is one spell that I observed that lasts two and a half IG days, which's roughly four hours RL. And Eloran, this is a newbie's observation. There are possibly spells with much longer durations. Are you sure you have enough experience, enough to call others stupidliar?

- Second, you do not need to practice stuff at 'un' every time. 'help magick reach'. You can use 'nil' and be devoid of all the lingering effects of spells, while trying to branch them. I agree with Spawnloser above that if you want to tavern idle, just cast at 'nil' that day and be done with it. If you don't want that four-hour buff, don't have it. I agree about the 'outside the gates' situation, though. Rough call.

- Third, in my last response I meant, I played two characters. I played first one to have a very weird dwarven focus, but the second one was a pure gemmer. I played her to see the life in quarters and I had no intention to tavern-sit, even for socializing because blending into the mundanes is not something I believe to be good role-play.
Why would a whiran need to sit at Gaj for an elongated period of time? No reasons but "Because no gemmers are online and I'm bored IRL" are true to my opinion. Quarters are lively with a lot of talk scripts, it's where Tek's Tower is sold and let's face it, usually there are more gemmers online than there are mundanes. Why ruin the rough ranger's immersion by entering the tavern in groups of five gemmers while you can really party at a temple?

I agree tavern-sitting is possible, but viable? Wasn't the topic booing the gemmers that blend a bit too much into the nonmagickal community of Allanak? I'm lost, so forgive my blubbering.

Edited because I misread Eloran's post, he called people claiming magick durations are long 'lying', not 'stupid'...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 02:17:34 PM by evil_erdlu »
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Malken

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Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2009, 03:20:36 PM »
Well, Staff said that they don't want the gemmer's quarter to have a tavern, because they want to encourage gemmers to mingle with the mundanes at the Gaj, but the players of Arm don't seem to want this to happen, and they would rather that the gemmers stick to their quarter and their own stuff, am I wrong?
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Agent_137

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Re: 1000th time... Haggle for a Gem
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2009, 03:27:31 PM »
i don't know if staff ever said that explicitly. In fact i think it's only implied that they don't want it because various folks have tried IG and OOC over the years.

Regardless, magickers in small doses are PART of zalanthas. it only becomes an issue when there are bunches of them together. Magickers, gemmers i mean, need to be aware of their . . . oh wait, I've said this before on another thread. Last week in fact.