Author Topic: City-elf problems and possible solutions  (Read 25181 times)

titansfan

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2009, 01:57:38 PM »
I agree with Jstorrie, I personally love playing c-elves and d-elves. And I have never had a problem either way. So what if I can't wear massive Mek armor of godly-ness...or carry three tuns of water (okay I'm exaggerating) but the point is still there....elves are fast and remarkably so...and the high agility has always made up for the lack of strength for me...and I'm one who likes big a strong characters, but yet I still find elves appealing.
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RogueGunslinger

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2009, 02:54:13 PM »
What Jingo said.

The real problem is lack of coded city-elven tribes. There should be at least one.

It would go a long way, but I think city-elves would still be limited in potential roles.

I'll say it one last time. The problem with city elves is that they are limited in roles because of a number of issues.

Where are my spice-hunters?

Mercenaries?

Unscrupulous merchants?

Why the hell is being a city elf outside the labyrinth an iso role?

Why are elves usually treated worse than half-elves, scum of the earth!?

Hell, why are city-elves, (citizens of His glorious city) treated worse than desert elves?

Why is every goddamn elf I meet in the south a lawless sneak? (I've noticed at least one exception lately, kudos to you!)

To summarize my solutions....

1. Give elven tribes with a visable position in the city states. So we actually know where elves stand in the social heirarchy. I'm not looking for anything more than a few docs and an elven friendly part of town.

2. Give elves access to more clans. I think the merchant houses would be most appropriate.

3. Give elves a way to get around. Make them run worth a damn! (again, doesn't have to be as far, or as fast as d-elves)


musashi

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2009, 08:13:54 PM »
I can't find a help file or web page doc that describes desert elves to be more muscular or leaner than city elves.  Please post the specific quote you are talking about so that it can be fixed.  Per the documents, elf and desert elves have the same range of strength.

I will also point out this note in the help docs:

Quote from: help elf
Notes:
   Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak.  They possess other abilities
to compensate.  If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.

It's um ... in the same help file you referenced.

Quote from: The entire elf helpfile
Race Elf  (Character) 


Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames. Skin colour ranges from nearly black to pale cream colours; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye colour among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city elves and desert elves.

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin colour than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.


Roleplaying:


Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert
tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime,
per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons
outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to
test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

Notes:


Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
Desert elves are not readily available to new players, but city elves
are.
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Morgenes

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2009, 09:09:53 PM »
I can't find a help file or web page doc that describes desert elves to be more muscular or leaner than city elves.  Please post the specific quote you are talking about so that it can be fixed.  Per the documents, elf and desert elves have the same range of strength.

I will also point out this note in the help docs:

Quote from: help elf
Notes:
   Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak.  They possess other abilities
to compensate.  If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.

It's um ... in the same help file you referenced.

Quote from: The entire elf helpfile
Race Elf  (Character) 


Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames. Skin colour ranges from nearly black to pale cream colours; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye colour among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city elves and desert elves.

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin colour than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.


Roleplaying:


Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert
tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime,
per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons
outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to
test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

Notes:


Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
Desert elves are not readily available to new players, but city elves
are.


Fixed, it now reads:

Quote from: help elf
They tend to be darker
in skin color than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular, but
not necessarily stronger.
Morgenes

Producer
Armageddon Staff

musashi

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2009, 09:31:43 PM »
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Nile

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2009, 01:35:35 AM »
Are city elves even supposed to leave their city? Or is it looked down upon? I always venture away from the role because I've been under the impression that you choose a city, and stay there. And that just sounds horribly boring to me.
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musashi

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2009, 01:45:26 AM »
In defense of the general sentiment, my first truely "one city based won't travel" PC I made was perhaps my most enjoyable, so staying in one city (at least until IG events dictate otherwise) doesn't have to be horribly boring ...

But as for whether or not a city elf would travel ... no idea.

I figure not, unless its for trade, because most nothern folks hate southern folks and vice versa.

Actually that makes me wonder ... do southern elves share the same ill taste for northern people as southern humans do, and vice versa?
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Jingo

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2009, 02:21:28 AM »
It's mostly for playability reasons.

If I start an elf in redstorm with the intent of gathering spice, I will be severely disabled in my ability to do it. Or if I join the byn, I won't be able to go along with missions. Or if someone asks my badass warrior city elf to join them on a scouting trip, I can't.

Playability really always trumps these kind of IC concerns.
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musashi

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2009, 02:30:29 AM »
I think city elves should be able to run better than humans, for what it's worth. Something like ... desert elves run the fastest, followed by city elves, followed by half-elves, followed by half-giants, humans, halflings, dwarves.

Though where Mantis would fit into that I have no idea ... scary bugs!
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Synthesis

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2009, 02:35:31 AM »
I think city elves should be able to run better than humans, for what it's worth. Something like ... desert elves run the fastest, followed by city elves, followed by half-elves, followed by half-giants, humans, halflings, dwarves.

Though where Mantis would fit into that I have no idea ... scary bugs!

City elves can run faster, and they run MUCH better in certain places.  Of course, not in any of the places that would really make them worth the bother to play, especially since other readily available skills are infinitely more useful in those places.
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Ashes

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2009, 02:37:34 AM »
Or just let city-elves retain some of their long-lost runner's build by letting them "hike" more easily through wilderness.  Reduced stamina drain, slightly increased walking speed, that sort of thing.  It'd be slow, but less ridiculous to try and travel more than two rooms beyond the city gates for whatever reason.

That said, I think that if city-elves had a better-defined role within a city, it would be the exception to the rule that one would ever want to leave the city, because their niche would be there.  Sadly, that's not the case.  They can be difficult to play in the city, because they're shunned like lepers (thieves) and they're nigh impossible to play outside of the city, because while they're huffing to catch their breath, something's going to eat them.  To be fair, if you're more intent on playing a mercenary or scout than you are a weird exception to a racial norm, then city elves aren't for you.
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Jingo

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2009, 03:06:40 AM »
To be fair, if you're more intent on playing a mercenary or scout than you are a weird exception to a racial norm, then city elves aren't for you.

Take a look around the T'zai Byn compounds and redstorm. I think there are plenty of examples for these roles.
Now you're looking for the secret. But you won’t find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

Synthesis

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2009, 03:26:14 AM »
To be fair, if you're more intent on playing a mercenary or scout than you are a weird exception to a racial norm, then city elves aren't for you.

Take a look around the T'zai Byn compounds and redstorm. I think there are plenty of examples for these roles.

I think it was stated some time in the past that most of the T'zai Byn elf NPCs are in fact members of some now-defunct d-elf tribe.

I remember an Imm animating Lieutenant Astalon once to take us out for desert training, and he hid in the desert while we were all chilling in the tent, so when the Runners all came out, we were like WHERE'D THE SARGE GO OMG WE'RE GONNA DIE.
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Yokunama

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2009, 03:35:07 AM »
The next problem is lack of clanned opportunity. In the south, if I want to stay out of the 'rinth; what are my options if I want to join one of the game's staff supported clans? One merchant house and thats it. My guess it that in the south (in the north things are a bit different), clans make up three-fourths of PC interactions on Zalanthas. Almost all the long-lived characters and therefore most of the neato plots belong to clans. And city-elves are shunned from all but one of them.

The bold text appears to be true. I cant remember -ever- having a RPT with an elf, but I do remember a handful of well-played, long-lived city elves.

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Is Friday

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2009, 07:56:44 AM »
City elves are just fine.

They're one of my favorite builds to play, actually.
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Clearsighted

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2009, 07:03:47 PM »
City elves are just fine.

They're one of my favorite builds to play, actually.

What's the longest a city elf of yours has survived? :P

They still should get at least one coded tribe like everyone else gets.

Jingo

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2009, 07:15:01 PM »
City elves are just fine.

They're one of my favorite builds to play, actually.

What's the longest a city elf of yours has survived? :P

Remember that 'rinth elves don't count.
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Ghost

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2009, 07:21:58 PM »
City elves should be like 6 karma.

They have high restrictions on leaving a city.  There is nearly no document of city elf tribes to set down some guidance.  The entire playerbase will treat you like they are handling toilet paper (yes, you are only useful when they need to smear some shit or shit related products).  There is no clan that will give you shelter.  Worst of it all, in that city you live which you can not leave even if you want to, all the troubles other players get will be pinned on you.

Seriously, the only race that is slightly more restricted is mul (since being a slave and all), and they have some perks that make up for it.

My math says it is good for 6 karma.
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musashi

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2009, 08:08:40 PM »
I must admit ... it has seemed to me from the city elves I've seen in the past, that there function is let new players app them and try to play them like LoR elves ... while the rest of the playerbase jeers.

I'm sort of inclined to agree with Ghost that they should be a karma role.
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titansfan

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2009, 10:05:20 PM »
Haha, I've experienced the "all the things other players do are pinned on you" and it works that way with every single long-lived c-elf I've had.
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Clearsighted

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2009, 11:52:07 PM »
City elves should be like 6 karma.

They have high restrictions on leaving a city.  There is nearly no document of city elf tribes to set down some guidance.  The entire playerbase will treat you like they are handling toilet paper (yes, you are only useful when they need to smear some shit or shit related products).  There is no clan that will give you shelter.  Worst of it all, in that city you live which you can not leave even if you want to, all the troubles other players get will be pinned on you.

Seriously, the only race that is slightly more restricted is mul (since being a slave and all), and they have some perks that make up for it.

My math says it is good for 6 karma.

It should be at least 1 karma. It's the worst race for a newbie to choose.

Fool

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The Riding thing
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2009, 01:43:35 AM »
I was thinking about the city elves and mount thing this week and think that it could be considered a result of the races inborn psychological make up rather than a simple matter or pride, upbringing and choice.

You could go with they are born with a psychological need to not rely on anyone or anything else. It would explain their instinct towards deception, becuase they are born knowing that to rely on someone else is wrong and weak. When an elf tricks someone else they deserve it becuase the only way someone would be in that situation would be to rely on the elf to sacrifice their own self interest for that person. Maybe they are lazy or stupid but they trying to make you weak too, how dare they.

In regards to mounts there would be the instinctive mistrust of putting yourself at the relative mercy of that beast. Sure eventually they can be trained, and are very useful, but what about if that beast is killed? If you have come to rely on that beast to do what you need to do... well for an elf it just wouldn't bear thinking about. Literally, becuase their brains just don't work that way.

Familial instincts would override this somewhat allowing the concept of self to expand to encompass immediate family and to an extent the tribe. Its ok to help and rely on them a little... they are family.

Anyone, just pointing out that the whole riding thing need not be reduced to stupidity on the part of elves.


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Ammut

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2009, 02:04:49 AM »
I would support city elves being a karma race of the same level as a desert elf.  It seems logical, but then again some of the funnest times I've ever had as a newbie were playing c-elf pickpockets.

Moofassa

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #48 on: January 30, 2009, 02:06:52 AM »
I was chatting with another player the other day, and I agree completely with Ghost. They are nearly as hard to play, as muls (properly). If you take a look a current elves, they don't appear to follow help filed profile (PERSONAL, I COULD BE WRONG).

Thats all. Karma the C-elves.

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FantasyWriter

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Re: City-elf problems and possible solutions
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2009, 02:20:54 AM »
Maybe move everything else up a notch (2 karma=d-elves, 3 karma=viv/ruk, etc).
Give C-elves the 1 karma spot.
D-elf karma would take the same "trust level" as it does now making C-elf karma very easy to get.
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