Author Topic: Templars and fear  (Read 15110 times)

theebie

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Templars and fear
« on: August 29, 2007, 04:54:11 AM »
hi,

i'm not sure how fearfull templars are seen by the general population.
from what i remember when i (years ago) read some dark-sun books
they were that frightfull that everybody within sight fell down to their
knees, head to the ground, whenever a templar passed anywhere,
which is way more frightfull than they are in our game right now.

is there some official standing on this ?

regards, theebie

Cegar

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Templars and fear
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2007, 05:01:24 AM »
Yeah. You bow.

Or you lose your body parts.
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Nile

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Templars and fear
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2007, 05:23:30 AM »
I've had moments where a Templar entered and I got very nervous RL. They can be damn scary bastards when they decide to pick on your beloved char.
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Folker

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Templars and fear
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2007, 05:26:42 AM »
It would be impossible for a Templar to function if people did what you describe TOO much. If Templars were only seen in passing, then yeah sure, it could be that all Templars would ever see of commoners are their bent backs. But since Templars tend to actually have 'stations' where they are seen constantly, people cant just freeze in a permanent bow. So, it's fairly possible to 'avoid' bowing to Templars in areas where it's possible to simply not notice a Templar, like say ... A Bazaar. But if it's clear that you're awar of Templar's entrance, then yeah ... whole room bows.

theebie

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Templars and fear
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2007, 05:50:38 AM »
in a bazaar it'd be easy to recognize a templar.
he'd be the one standing in a quiet place where all others lie flat on the ground in a bow.

Folker

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Templars and fear
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2007, 06:06:38 AM »
Quote from: "theebie"
in a bazaar it'd be easy to recognize a templar.
he'd be the one standing in a quiet place where all others lie flat on the ground in a bow.


Then it wouldnt be a bazaar, would it? Just some impromptu prayer ... place. Templars certainly enjoy dominion, but they like silkie cloth aswell, as if no one is trading them in, it'll be up to templars to weave them manually.

theebie

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Templars and fear
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2007, 06:16:22 AM »
Quote from: "Folker"
Quote from: "theebie"
in a bazaar it'd be easy to recognize a templar.
he'd be the one standing in a quiet place where all others lie flat on the ground in a bow.


Then it wouldnt be a bazaar, would it? Just some impromptu prayer ... place. Templars certainly enjoy dominion, but they like silkie cloth aswell, as if no one is trading them in, it'll be up to templars to weave them manually.


you're not getting my point, it'd be no bazaar until the templar would be gone again, until then it would be a lie-silent-and-look-on-the-floor-place.
and of course all shopkeepers would spend their whole concentration on
pleasing the templar, they'd not need to weave anything.

Lizzie

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Templars and fear
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2007, 07:10:27 AM »
From what I understand, it really depends on the city and the rank of the templar. In the north, bowing to a templar is considered a slight against him. They expect good manners and respectful "gestures" (such as a bowed head). In the south, you bow to the templar if you see him come toward you, or look at you, or address your group. Otherwise you let him do his business and stay out of it. If it's a red-robe allanak templar, you'd probably stay bowed, and not rise again until you either get permission or the red-robe leaves. If it's a black-robe, you probably should run away. Very fast. And hope you never get caught.
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brytta.leofa

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Re: Templars and fear
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2007, 09:14:43 AM »
Quote from: "theebie"
... they were that frightfull that everybody within sight fell down to their knees, head to the ground, whenever a templar passed anywhere, which is way more frightfull than they are in our game right now.

So, three templars walk into a bar in Allanak.  [Everything here refers to 'nak; I've never played up north.]

As the first enters, folks see his blue robe and his half-giant bodyguard.  Conversations are hushed for a moment; eyes turn to see what he's doing.  He walks over to a table at which someone is seated: the person he's looking at quickly rises and bows, as do his two companions; others in the tavern relax a little and return to what they were doing (picking their words a little more carefully, perhaps).

A moment later, a red-robed templar enters.  Heads turn again, and this time everyone's on their feet and bowing.  Again, he's looking for someone in particular, but no one really sits down or goes back to what they were doing until he leaves.  If he sits down at a table and shows signs of staying, people may sit back down, but will be very on their toes.

The third templar arrives, in a black robe.  Everyone prostrates themselves as you've described.  No one gets up unless ordered until he leaves...even if it's hours, probably.

My impression is that most blue robes are out in the city doing real work, and value efficiency (though never rudeness) to obsequiousness in a commoner.

Quote from: "Cegar"
Yeah. You bow.  Or you lose your body parts.

I think this is true (a) only in Allanak and (b) only if he/she is paying attention to you.  You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.
The sword is sharp, the spear is long,
The arrow swift, the Gate is strong.
The heart is bold that looks on gold;
The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.

Rairen

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Templars and fear
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 09:44:35 AM »
I can cover a (and I'm sure there's multiple, subtle interpretations) Tuluki perspective on things.

Templars are loved.  You don't bow to people you love.  In fact, you want to run up and hug them all the time, except for that (ew) commoner, physicial contact, you-are-not-worthy thing.  The best you can do is give them "Hey, buddy, how's things?" nods and make like they're (if slightly stand-offish) one of the gang, a la Cheers, where Norm is powerful, infallable, and sword/whip/whatever wielding.

In fact, why wouldn't you nod?  You couldn't be scared of them, could you?  Loyal citizens have nothing to fear; only the disloyal vanish from the streets.  What is it that you need forgiveness for, that you prostrate yourself and cower at the sight of them?  Or... are you grovelling like a southerner because you think these templars are as corrupt and vile as their southern counterparts?  Is this a veiled, mocking insult to the servants of His Light?

:wink:
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Tisiphone

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Templars and fear
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 10:32:41 AM »
Said from the perspective of a regular-joe, don't have anything against the establishment commoner:

The expression, "Tuluki dogs," comes to mind well.

That is, in Tuluk, you do love your templars. Like a dog loves its master. Also, you know that the templars love you, too. However, it would be a little awkward and irritating for them if you were to run over and fawn on them all of the time. (Just in the same way a dog can be trained to realize that you don't like being jumped all over and licked.) In fact, you love them because they are better than you, and know it, and they look out for you. However, there's a small part that doesn't want to soil them with your inferiority; so you do what they ask of you, gladly, but you don't bow, because that would show that you don't feel as close a connection as you do, and you don't leap out of your seat and run to their side like a best friend, because the relationship is 'master-servant' love.
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

Gimfalisette

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Templars and fear
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 10:53:50 AM »
Quote from: "Rairen"
In fact, why wouldn't you nod?  You couldn't be scared of them, could you?  Loyal citizens have nothing to fear; only the disloyal vanish from the streets.  What is it that you need forgiveness for, that you prostrate yourself and cower at the sight of them?  Or... are you grovelling like a southerner because you think these templars are as corrupt and vile as their southern counterparts?  Is this a veiled, mocking insult to the servants of His Light?


This is fine for regular ol' Lirathan and Jihaen templars. But things are going to get much more respectful around a High Templar and up. And if you see the High Precentor (voice of the Sun King Himself), there will be prostrating. (Have seen it and done it in game.)
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

Doppelganger

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Templars and fear
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2007, 12:45:21 PM »
Showing submission to and assuming vulnerabile position before powerful figure is almost animal instinct. Wolves and other predators show their open neck or belly to the leader of their pack, people bow and grovel. Even if given Allanaki commoner didn't feel Templar's wrath on himself yet, he has witnessed it in action many times. That is why they leave dead bodies lying around, that is why they make executions openly, to show what is expected from them. In environment like that, bowing and groveling before Templars is not intelligent action, it's instinct of self-preservation rather than social etiquette.

Situation in Tuluk is different, but what Gimfalisette says happens indeed. Nature of these actions is different though. What is done out of fear in Allanak, happens on the wave of religious ecstasy in Tuluk. Like earthen religious fanatics go to extremes in presence of saints, prophets, holy relics, the very same way Tuluki commoners prostrate themselves before clergy of their living God. However, those few who are well aware what is hidden behind facade of universal love, might grovel for the same reason why it is usually being done in Allanak.

jstorrie

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Templars and fear
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2007, 02:32:51 PM »
Many Tulukis may act the way they do not because they do really love the Jihaens and Lirathans, they just want to not stick out. While the Jihaens are often too militarily disciplined to care about meddling with commoners, a Jihaen that takes an interest in you can be very intimidating–and the Lirathans, of course, can be absolutely horrifying.

This is all also very subject to how things with PCs turn out. There have been a few overtly cruel Jihaens since the Copper War event, but not many of them stuck around very long. The two most prominent Jihaens for the past few months have been more of the firm-yet-subtle types who inspire the classic Tuluki-style patriotism mentioned above. On the other side of the coin, I used to run into Lirathans in-game who scared the shit out of me, but there was a long string from the Copper War until just about a month ago or so where there seemed to be a new Lirathan every other week because they were, well, bumbling around and getting themselves killed and not coming off as ice-hearted evil geniuses at all.

I'd say it's more difficult to inspire PCs to react to your templar Tuluki-style than Allanaki style. Tuluki-style, you have to be cordial yet calculating and ruthless. In Allanak, the norm is just to be incredibly dangerous. They both inspire fear in different ways, I guess, but I know I would definitely find it easier to play a blue-robe than a mooninite.

path

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Templars and fear
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2007, 03:28:55 PM »
brytta.leofa said:
Quote
You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.


Glory be! Might not have been able to say it better myself, that's for the Southie Templars, of course.

Edited to add:
Zalanthas is dark sun based, not dark sun. We have our own cultures, histories and differences. While you'll see racial and creature similarities, you'll find the differences to be vast indeed.
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Gimfalisette

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Templars and fear
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2007, 03:57:37 PM »
I've played quite closely to well-done templars both north and south. (As well as to poorly-done templars in both locations.) The truth is, in both city-states, the emotional reaction to an individual templar from a PC could be:

Fear
Love
Hatred
Respect / Reverence
Disrespect
Trust
Distrust

My favorite templars are the ones who inspire a combination of fear, respect, and love all at the same time; and I have experienced this both north and south.

I'll also note that religious fervor isn't only the province of the north. There's plenty in the south, too; it just has a somewhat darker, more overtly brutal cast to it. Same goes for patriotism.
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

Larrath

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Templars and fear
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2007, 04:13:16 PM »
I wanted to pitch in about Tuluk here.
Tuluk, for all of its pleasantness, is in truth more brutal than Allanak.  Many Tulukis might not be aware of the fact, but they certainly do know that the vast majority of crimes in Tuluk are punished by death.  People in Tuluk disappear left in right and without any explanation.
Every single time a Tuluki is looking for someone and can't find them, they're probably going to wonder if that person was silently executed.  Haven't seen your lover for two days?  Well, maybe they're dead already.  People don't discuss people who vanished, and often they don't even know why they vanished in the first place.
To me, it's extremely similar to the Ministry of Love in Orwell's 1984, except they don't let you out before you're shot in the back of the head.

Living in a city like Tuluk is living in constant, maddening paranoia.  Some Tulukis might react to this by becoming excessively patriotic, deciding that the Templarate is absolute justice.  Other Tulukis, especially those that have actually interacted with a Templar on more than one occasion, will see that they can also be corrupt on occasion.

In other words, while some Tulukis might revere the Templars, they usually fear them more than they love them; what if that Jihaen saw you just when a bug flew into your mouth and you made a face?  If they took affront to that, you'll probably disappear tomorrow without being able to explain it was an honest mistake.  What if you had a weird hunch or made a lucky guess at some point and you're suspected for being a witch or a psionicist?  Bam, dead.  What if a good friend of yours turns out to be an abomination and you're wrongly suspected of having helped them?  Bam, dead.

In Allanak, you can get away with a whipping, or paying a bribe, or maybe losing an eye or a limb, or even being thrown into the Arena (where you can shout some parting words or explain yourself briefly before the animal is released, and maybe even win your freedom).  In Tuluk, punishment is generally either enslavement, a fine or execution.


Now, about templars:
In Tuluk, it's considered rude to bow to a regular Templar because it's too similar to how things used to be when Tuluk was under Allanaki occupation.  Bowing to a Tuluki templar is, in a way, comparing them to Allanaki templars, and they don't like that.
When a very important Templar comes along, you bow or kneel to them because it's the single biggest honor of your entire, pitiful life.

In Allanak, you bow to a regular Templar.  However, because Allanak has a huge amount of blue-robed templars patrolling the streets, standing at corners and going about their business, you can get away with only bowing to templars that notice you or you have business with.  Otherwise you'd have to bow at least twenty times whenever you wanted to go from the Bard's Barrel to the Dragon Temple to buy some water, and that's simply not practical.  This isn't to say that templars aren't frightening -- to most regular people in a city-state, a templar can do anything, purely by whim.  If a blue-robed templar goes to your Bynner Sergeant or your indie ranger and decides that you're a slave now, you're a slave.  If they want you dead, you die.
When a red-robed templar comes around, everything stops completely for a few minutes and everyone bows.  Some people might kneel.  This is because, for all practical purposes, a red-robed templar can do ANYTHING they want, no matter what, and suffer no consequences whatsoever.  A red-robed templar can walk up to a regular (non-senior) noble and decide to banish them from the city because they annoyed him.  Provided this noble wasn't incredibly important, and most of them aren't, nothing will happen to the red-robe as a result.

Now, a black-robed templar... a black-robed templar is an evil, omnipotent and omniscient demigod with a temper and, as far as anyone knows, enough power to kill all life in the Known World in two seconds flat.  When a black-robe arrives, everyone kneels and stays kneeling until that black-robe is well, well out of sight.  Because if that black-robe thinks, even for half a second, that you don't respect them quite enough, you'll die instantly.


Templars are plenty scary in Zalanthas.  The reason it's easy to forget this fact is that many things aren't OOCly allowed -- a PC templar can't walk around enslaving, maiming or throwing people into the Arena at random because players will complain about it, and this is ultimately a game designed to be fun for everyone.  What more people need to realize, perhaps, is that these restrictions don't actually exist in the game world, but are rather an OOC courtesy of sorts.  ICly, a templar is fully capable of taking you out of a tavern and brutally murder you simply because they didn't like the hat you were wearing.
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manonfire

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Templars and fear
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2007, 04:29:38 PM »
A ton of useful information here. Once the thread has reached a logical conclusion, I'd love to see it archived.



Marauder Moe

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Templars and fear
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2007, 04:40:12 PM »
Quote from: "path"
brytta.leofa said:
Quote
You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.


Glory be! Might not have been able to say it better myself, that's for the Southie Templars, of course.


Sweet Tek, yes.  This needs to be re-quoted on every page of this thread.

brytta.leofa

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Templars and fear
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2007, 05:15:14 PM »
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
I'll also note that religious fervor isn't only the province of the north. There's plenty in the south, too; it just has a somewhat darker, more overtly brutal cast to it. Same goes for patriotism.

Someone once posted something to the following effect: 'nakkis live in the middle of a harsh, nasty desert, and they love the templarate for being far, far more dangerous than the nasties outside the walls.  Their templars may be brutal, corrupt, and generally terrifying, but they also regularly put their own lives on the line for the city.

(I'd love to know how many blue robe PCs get stored vs. killed...my guess is not many.  Of course PCs tend to lead more dangerous lives than their NPC relatives.)
The sword is sharp, the spear is long,
The arrow swift, the Gate is strong.
The heart is bold that looks on gold;
The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.

James de Monet

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Templars and fear
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2007, 01:25:26 AM »
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
Quote from: "path"
brytta.leofa said:
Quote
You do not have to bow to every blue-robed templar you pass in the street; you bow if you're spoken to, approached, or otherwise singled out.


Glory be! Might not have been able to say it better myself, that's for the Southie Templars, of course.


Sweet Tek, yes.  This needs to be re-quoted on every page of this thread.


I would like to add that I think the factor of setting also plays into this equation.  If you are someplace where the Templar clearly "belongs" (is a natural sight) you will probably be less likely to respond to their presence.  If a Templar walked into the Ministry while you were in it, you probably wouldn't bow at all unless they fully tapped you on the shoulder, because they clearly are there for a reason other than you.  In the Trader's, you might be likely to bow if they looked at you, but not simply at their entrance.  In the Barrel, you would probably be more aware of them, wondering why they were there, ready to bow at the slightest provocation.  In the Gaj, people would likely stop what they were doing, even if a blue robe just walked in.  And in the 'rinth, there would almost certainly be scattering (if not something more drastic).  It's a matter of contrast.
You know I think if James simply retitled his thread "Cheese" and apologized for his first post being off-topic, all problems would be solved.

Tisiphone

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Templars and fear
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2007, 10:02:19 AM »
While we're on the subject of templars, is there any actual known sharable information as to how a blue robe becomes a red robe becomes a black robe? Or, if that question isn't applicable, how the distinction is made in the Templarate orders? (Is it hereditary? If your momma was a red-robe, and didn't kill you while you were growing up, do you become one?) Do templars just yank people off of the street/out of the Arm and throw them into 'templar training'?

Almost more importantly, what are the background rumours?[/b]
There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow-feeling with individual fellow-men. -George Eliot

Marauder Moe

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Templars and fear
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2007, 10:14:29 AM »
Templar robes in Allanak aren't quite orders, they're ranks.  You get promoted from blue to red, and maybe to black someday.  Usually I suppose a blue gets promoted to red after a long, distinguished career and winning several (relatively) major battles.

Not sure where whites-robes and brown-robes fit in.  They might be below blue, apprentice positions for younger templars, or just off to the side for retired blues and other templars who aren't fit for battle one way or another.

rufus

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Templars and fear
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2007, 11:34:49 AM »
...brown robes?

Tarx

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Templars and fear
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2007, 11:54:07 AM »
...brown-nose templars?
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