Author Topic: Templars and fear  (Read 15108 times)

Malken

  • Posts: 9148
Templars and fear
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2007, 10:29:32 PM »
Considering that there's Templars NPCs all over the place, stopping to bow to every Templars you pass by is silly.
“When I was a fighting man, the kettle-drums they beat;
The people scattered gold-dust before my horse’s feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back.”

Briarfox

  • Posts: 391
    • Briar Art
Templars and fear
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2007, 02:38:17 AM »
Also consider that in a crowded Bazaar or along a traffic-heavy intersection between busy areas, you probably shouldn't be able to see every Templar or Noble, npc or pc.
Briar

And the Nonman King cried words that sting:
"Now to me you must confess,
For death above you hovers!"
And the Emissary answered ever wary:
"We are the race of flesh,
We are the race of lovers."
     -"Ballad of the Inchoroi"

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8903
Templars and fear
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2007, 05:45:40 AM »
Truthfully, there's no need to bow to any Blue Robe Templar or Any Noble unless they specifically address you or in some other way interject themselves into your immediate life.

Examples of the proper time to bow to a noble or bluerobe are:[/u]
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble walks up to you, or you walk up to them.
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble walks up to your friend, whom you're talking to, or you walk up to their friend.
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble directly speaks to you from across the room/street or you talk to them from across the room/street.
 :arrow: The Templar/Noble in some way draws your undivided attention, or, you draw theirs.

Don't worry about Red Robes. You'll probably never meet a Red Robe. But if you do, bow your ass off if he so much as looks at you in a manner that your character would notice. If you look at him, bow, fast.

With High Nobles, you won't know they are any diffferent from a normal Noble until you are informed.

Nobles and Blues expect respect, but we don't need you peons to stop working every time we come around. Shit.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Salt Merchant

  • Posts: 1663
Templars and fear
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2007, 07:44:25 AM »
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"
Nobles and Blues expect respect, but we don't need you peons to stop working every time we come around. Shit.


We? Hahahahahaha.... sounds like you're getting into your role there. Maybe a bit too much? But then, I'm only a peon.   :D
Lunch makes me happy.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8306
Templars and fear
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2007, 08:59:01 AM »
I would add one to 7Deadly's list:
s: if the noble or templar looks at you. With the exception...
s.1: If your character isn't facing the templar/noble and would not have seen him, you should toss out an emote so the player of that templar/noble will react appropriately to not getting his bow-fix in.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8903
Templars and fear
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2007, 09:50:43 AM »
Marginally, I condone Lizzie's addition, since I understand that people don't all feel the same way about the look command. However, I, specifically, feel that the look command is just a look, it's not a stare. Therefore, I don't particularly agree with having to even achknowledge the Templar/Noble as being in the room unless you specifically have cause to do so. And even if you know he/she is in the room, you don't really have to bow to them.

Nobles/Templars who require bow-fixes need to not be Nobles/Templars. Bow when it's ICly appropriate, not when you think the player has a fetish.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


spawnloser

  • Posts: 7313
Templars and fear
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2007, 01:39:09 PM »
I hate bow-gasms.  That is all.
Quote from: Malifaxis
We need to listen to spawnloser.
Quote from: Reiteration
spawnloser knows all

Quote from: Spoon
A magicker is kind of like a mousetrap, the fear is the cheese. But this cheese has an AK47.

Rindan

  • Posts: 2825
Templars and fear
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2007, 10:21:41 PM »
In my opinion, there is no need to bow to a templar/noble that looks at you.  If he is emoting out staring at you and you see it, you might want to get up and bow.  If a Templar walks into a bar and looks at you, you don't need to stand up until he comes over to the bar or addresses you.  It isn't like wherever the Templar's eyes pass people instantly drop a bow.  A Templar can look at the people around them without each one instantly prostrating themselves (unless they are a black robed... in which case you should prostrate yourself long before they look at you).  Getting hit by a look command isn't enough reason to bow, it is just a look and nothing more.  Templars "look" at lots of people in a city of half a million without causing a tidal wave of bows.

I think 7DV hits it pretty well on the head as to when you should be bowing.  It all basically revolves around 'the Templar/noble is paying attention to you and you realize it'.  The only other time outside of that that I bow is if I have to move past a noble or Templar, in which case I think a quick bow isn't a bad idea.  A Templar walking down the street might not score a back bending bows on every person he passes, but I imagine most commoners that get close drop a very quick and short bow that is closer to a nod then a bow.  The idea is more that you are not striding by with your nose up in the air and showing quick deference without interrupting what you are doing before passing by.  The same goes with a Templar standing in a doorway you want to get through.  You might not break your back, but it probably can't hurt to dip your head in deference as you pass though.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8306
Templars and fear
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2007, 11:40:45 PM »
Because of the echo from "look" I feel it is more than just "seeing" people nearby. I 'see' the dark, green-haired woman, because she is in the same room.  When I 'look' at her, I am taking special notice of her. Examining her features and her clothing, studying her scars and tattooes. That is not a fleeting glimpse. I would love it if "look" didn't return an echo. But it does. And since it does, I roll with it, and assume that if someone did -not- want me to know they were taking an interest in me, they wouldn't be looking that intently in my direction.

This, is all assuming they simply "look woman" and not use the emotes that can be added to looking, to show me that the glance is fleeting, or the focus immediately shifts, or that a soldier immediately gets in the way of his glance in my direction, etc. etc. I roleplay those as they are provided. Without an attached emote, I assume it is a noticeable look at me.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Rindan

  • Posts: 2825
Templars and fear
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2007, 10:10:06 PM »
The look command is the only way to gather basic information that any idiot should be able to gather in about half a second with a glance.  If you walk into a bar and there is a naked woman sitting a stool you will see her, regardless if you "look" or not.  The only way for a Templar or noble to get even the most basic information about the people that they might need to respond to is to look.  Otherwise, the only thing they will know is that the dude is tall and has blue eyes... utterly ignoring that he is wielding a two handed battle ax and is wearing a blood soaked Tuluki soldier uniform.

The same goes in reverse.  A commoner that looks at a Templar is not having a staring contest with the Templar.  The commoner is glancing up for about 2 seconds, figuring out what sex the Templar is so they don't screw up Lord or Lady, observing what color the robe is so they know the appropiate amount of cowering they need to perform, and quickly recognizing or don't recognizing the face as the Templar that he owes money too.  Treating the commoner like he just stared you down is silly.  I can look up and tell if I recognize you, what color your robe is, and what sex you are without staring you down.

As a general rule of thumb, IMO, if someone just types "look" look is all they did.  Now, if they append that they are staring you down or giving  you a long look, then sure, consider it a stare down.  Until then, consider it a glance that gathered all the obvious information that any human can gather in about a split second.

Until Armageddon has a super awesome AI that tells you all the things your character would instantly recognize upon walking into a room, you need to look the old fashion way to find those things out.  People who don't make liberal use of the look command end up talking casually to the gemmed magikers with multi-colored sparkling robes for a half hour, calling the Lady Templar "Lord Templar", and not noticing that a black robed Templar just walked in and NOW is the time to throw yourself face first onto the ground.

My advice is to talk "look" with a grain of salt unless someone emotes something to the contrary.  We don't need a bowing wave when a Templar stands by the door and looks down the length of the bar.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8306
Templars and fear
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2007, 10:17:59 PM »
That sounds fair to me Rindan. I had considered it from the other extreme mostly because I have read on this GDB and even in the documentation, that a templar can kill you just because they didn't like how you looked at them. And that was before "look" could have emotes appended to it.

So all you templars and nobles and important fancy people of author-ih-tay: if someone looks at you, in no particular way, suck it up and live with it. It was no particular kind of look and for all you know, they might be standing -behind- you and looking at your skinny legs.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Fathi

  • Posts: 4564
Templars and fear
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2007, 10:27:40 PM »
Quote from: "Rindan"
We don't need a bowing wave when a Templar stands by the door and looks down the length of the bar.


The only issue with this is, of course, that sometimes templar and noble PCs get pissy when they walk in and you don't bow to them immediately upon seeing them.

 It's happened enough that I think a lot of people just find it easier to emote bowing the second they notice the important PC as opposed to not doing it and potentially facing IC wrath, despite the fact that a lot of people on the GDB think instabowing is stupid.

Unless the staff officially puts it in the docs that it's not considered social faux-pas to not bow the second you see a noble/templar that isn't of unusually high rank, then I figure you're going to keep seeing noble and templar PCs who expect it.
And I vanish into the dark
And rise above my station

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13006
Templars and fear
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2007, 10:38:31 PM »
I've had a PC get in trouble for not insta-bowing to a red-robed templar.

I think I've seen a PC or two get in mild trouble for not bowing when an entering noble has their servant formally announce them.

I've even seen some PCs get smacked in the head by soldiers when they don't bow to a templar who's addressing their buddy sitting next to them at the bar.

But I've never once seen a PC get in trouble for not insta-bowing to a noble  who just strolled in quietly and looked around.  

It may have happened 8 or 9 years ago, but it doesn't happen these days.

jstorrie

  • Posts: 4564
Templars and fear
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2007, 11:12:29 PM »
That templar may have just had it in for the guy / felt like messing with someone and singled him out just for the sake of it, too. Which is feasible.

Troicha

  • Posts: 538
Templars and fear
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2007, 11:14:56 PM »
Quote from: "jstorrie"
That templar may have just had it in for the guy / felt like messing with someone and singled him out just for the sake of it, too. Which is feasible.


QFT. This is -always- an excuse.

Edited to add, a few seconds after posting: Always an excuse for making the character's life hell, not messing with the player's enjoyment.

Rindan

  • Posts: 2825
Templars and fear
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2007, 11:27:44 PM »
Meh, I make it a point to not bow unless it makes sense.  A Templar or noble stepping into the tavern and glancing at me doesn't warrant getting off my ass, and I personally have never had it be an issue.  If Lord Templar Whatever has it out for you, maybe you should be throwing yourself at his feet the second he steps in.  Otherwise though, I have never seen anyone ever get in trouble for it in the past decade.  

Keep in mind that in places like the Gaj, the Barrel, or the streets, you are talking about very large and crowded areas.  Just because a tavern is a "room" doesn't mean that it is a "room" in the way meeting a Templar/noble in an estate or compound is a "room".  These are places that have hundreds of people in them, are extremely loud, and in general a Templar poking his head in is not going to arose much excitement nor provoke a bow wave except among the people closest to the Templar.  

Nobles are an even more extreme case of "easy to ignore".  At a glance, there is no real difference in dress between a Kadian merchant an a noble.  A noble or Kadian might pick out the difference, but a commoner won't.  They both dress nice, they both have servants and guards, and in general there is little difference in terms of appearance for your average commoner Amos.  The only way most commoners could tell a minor noble from a Kadian merchant is the fact that a noble has a signet ring.  You are pretty unlikely to see a signet ring from half way across the room and would just look weired standing up to bow in some random direction before sitting back down.  If a noble wants you to bow, he will get himself announce or be standing in front of you and talking to you.  A noble that isn't getting him/her self announce is pretty easy to miss.

Personally, I think that people have way too much fear of getting whacked for not bowing at silly times.  Nobles and Templars tend to understand what is and is not appropiate.  I really can't recall any noble or Templar demanding any silly "bow at me because I looked at you from half way across the room".  The worst I have seen is a Templar/noble swiftly approaching a commoner and then reaming them out for not bowing fast enough.  When they do this, it is almost always done not because they wanted to pick on that person already for another reason, and not bowing fast enough because the excuse.  It is just the Templar/noble finding a quasi-legal pretext give you a hard time for some other non-bowing related offense.

The worst I have ever seen is over enthusiastic subordinates cajoling people to stand up and bow because they saw a look echo.  Even in these cases, while the instance that NOW is the time to bow might be a little off (in my opinion) it generally leads to nowhere so long as the commoner in question shrugs just does it.

My general rule of thumb is:

1)  Bow if you are told to, even if it is stupid.

2)  Give a quick bow if you are going to pass within a few feet of said noble/Templar.

3)  Bow before initiating a conversation with a noble/templar.

4)  Bow if they initiate a conversation with you.

5)  Bow if they are in your general vicinity.  In other words, if they come over to the bar and you are at the bar, bowing is a good idea.  

6)  If they are talking to someone you are sitting or talking with, bow.

7)  Bow if you are in a confined space with a Templar/noble (pretty much any place that is not a road or tavern).

8)  Bow if a Templar/noble has it out for you... and bribe him to be nice.

Otherwise, don't worry.  The worst that happens is that the stars line up, and a Templar gives you a hard time.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Do your best scared-shitless-don't-hurt-me routine and they will leave you alone.  Nobles and Templars don't kill at random these days.  You have to do something, and not bowing when they step in a room filled with a few hundred other people isn't enough of a "something" to get your ass kicked.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8903
Templars and fear
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2007, 07:11:42 AM »
Amen, Rindan.

I sometimes hint ICly when people bow for no good reason. I'm sure ICly that it's flattering to the noble character, but I really think that letting it go once starts a damned wave and the next thing you know, all forty-seven of the PCs in the Tavern will be bowing as soon as some minor Lord darkens the archway.

To assist the concept of not needing to bow orgasmically, I like to ask what the commoner wants, or emote ignoring or not noticing them, or emote about the sheer crush of bodies or some such.

I will say this, though. For Tek's sake, don't refer to a Noble/Templar who's talking to you by nodding in greeting and saying sir or ma'am, specifically if you happen to be a citizen of whichever City-State you're in. This is really a little too casual, and I don't think any common citizen in their right mind would do it, unless they just really didn't know they were talking to a Noble/Templar.

Nobles, always remember, clothes are clothes ... it's the ring that gives the opposing PC the knowledge, upon having met you for the first time, that you are a Noble. No need to flip out too much if the ring isn't visible.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Lizzie

  • Posts: 8306
Templars and fear
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2007, 08:59:36 AM »
Actually Venom, I'm a huge fan of Ma'am and Sir and would love to see its use promoted in the game. They are titles of respect; in every language in the real world, translated. A queen's maid would address her mistress as "Your majesty" upon approach. When the queen orders her maid to do something, she would respond using "your majesty." But when the queen asks her maid a question, it is absolutely correct to reply, "Yes Ma'am." or "No Ma'am." In England it would be "Mum" but you get the idea.

These are terms commoners would use to defer to their superiors. Nobles are superior to commoners. Nobles, therefore, should take no offense at being referred to with a term of superiority by an inferior commoner once dialogue has begun.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8903
Templars and fear
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2007, 09:16:48 AM »
Mmmm, nah. Why? Not because you're wrong, but because Sir and Ma'am is what you call your Sergeant, and your Corporal, and ... your boss at the tavern. The thing is, they are still commoners. Those sirs and ma'ams aren't really better than you, they just know more.

Nobles are better than you. Calling them Sir and Ma'am is disrespectful because you're telling them that they are not more deserving of a title above that of the common militia sergeant.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


brytta.leofa

  • Posts: 9480
Templars and fear
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2007, 10:22:06 AM »
Quote from: "Lizzie"
Actually Venom, I'm a huge fan of Ma'am and Sir and would love to see its use promoted in the game. They are titles of respect; in every language in the real world, translated. A queen's maid would address her mistress as "Your majesty" upon approach. When the queen orders her maid to do something, she would respond using "your majesty." But when the queen asks her maid a question, it is absolutely correct to reply, "Yes Ma'am." or "No Ma'am." In England it would be "Mum" but you get the idea.

I actually like this; repeating "Lord" or "Lady" every sentence seems so awkward.  I have, however, had characters criticized in-game for using those titles with nobles.  And "Ma'am" has always worried me a little because of its historical use of addressing a married woman...which application in 'geddon is hard to pin down.  I've generally used "miss" or "mistress" to address a female commoner with respect.

I've recently seen people using "sir" as the title of respect for a military superior of either sex, which I find rather compelling and feudalish.  Though I guess its etymology is originally from "sire"?
The sword is sharp, the spear is long,
The arrow swift, the Gate is strong.
The heart is bold that looks on gold;
The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.

staggerlee

  • Posts: 2570
Templars and fear
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2007, 10:22:55 AM »
Hey, bowing depends on the character too. A  total kiss ass might bow all the time, a real lazy bastard might pretend not to see the noble until they're breathing down his neck.
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."

"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.

"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 13006
Templars and fear
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2007, 10:43:22 AM »
Part of the problem with titles is that modern English lacks formal and honorific pronouns.  Many other languages have different words for "you" that imply familiarity or formality.  Titles must be explicitly stated because "you" by itself sounds too familiar.  So instead of a familiar-sounding "How are you?" you must say "How are you, lord templar?" or "How are you, sir?" to show proper verbal respect.  That's why many characters say my lord or my lady in every other sentence.

My take on Armageddon titles has been:
 :arrow: Lord/Lady for a noble.  Never use "lady" or "ladies" to refer to common women, as tends to be done in modern English vernacular.
 :arrow: Sir for a military superior.  A few female military leaders have accepted being called ma'am, some have not.  I'd say it's optional.
 :arrow: Master/mistress is for a slave addressing their owner, noble or common.
 :arrow: Mister/miss is for merchant family members, other notable commoners, or any time someone wishes to be exceedingly polite to any commoner.  Generally an official title (agent, aide, etc) would be preferred if known, though.

Gimfalisette

  • Posts: 8314
Templars and fear
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2007, 12:19:17 PM »
Quote from: "Lizzie"
I'm a huge fan of Ma'am and Sir and would love to see its use promoted in the game...These are terms commoners would use to defer to their superiors. Nobles are superior to commoners. Nobles, therefore, should take no offense at being referred to with a term of superiority by an inferior commoner once dialogue has begun.


Sorry, but this is totally not in line with the game documentation or the culture of either city-state as it's played out in game. So, just, no. When it comes to commoners speaking to nobles, using "sir" or "ma'am" is completely incorrect, disrespectful, and should get you a swift correction by someone.

7DV and Moe have it correct.
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

ale six

  • Posts: 1278
Templars and fear
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2007, 02:06:36 PM »
I'll chip in here, having played a senior noble once upon a time.

With templars, in both city-states, you can tell pretty easily and quickly what rank they are. If a templar who is above blue robe in Allanak, or above your garden variety Lirathan/Jihaen in Tuluk walks into a tavern or around your character, I would expect the whole tavern to quiet down and be nervous and act respectful, and bow if you're in Allanak. The "I was sitting at the bar and didn't see him, my back was turned" excuse doesn't really hold up for High Templars or Red Robes, because these people have presence and they are scary, and even if you don't notice them instantly, the rest of the tavern will, and that will ripple across pretty quick. Seeing these kinds of characters in taverns should be rare, though, especially for the less cultured taverns.

Blue robes and their Tuluki equivalents, like most people have said, probably don't need an instabow unless your character is interacting with them in some meaningful fashion. If you want to be safe over sorry, bow anyway, but it's probably not expected.

As for nobles... nobles are trickier, because they tend not to have such blatant displays of rank. You can still, if you're sharp, tell the difference between a Senator and a junior noble, but it's not always obvious. Typically if a noble wants their presence to be noted and paid proper respect to, they will have a servant or guard announce them as they walk in. If a noble with a senior-sounding title announces themself, everybody should probably get up and bow. If it's just a junior noble, it may not be necessary even then. If the noble just walks in and heads to a table, they probably aren't expecting very many bows or anything, since they didn't announce their presence.

Whatever you do, though, don't purposefully acknowledge somebody with something that isn't a proper show of respect. Don't just look at an Allanaki templar/noble and nod politely. If you're recognising them, you should get up and bow.

When I was playing my noble I honestly got tired of paying attention who bowed to me and who didn't. I'd only call somebody out for a blatant snub or for doing the wrong thing.

As far as titles and "sir/ma'am" for nobles, I think Moe has it right. I wouldn't call a noble or templar sir or ma'am unless I was specifically told I should. If somebody had addressed my noble as ma'am, she probably would have corrected them or whipped them, depending on who they were and how she was feeling that day.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8306
Templars and fear
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2007, 02:36:00 PM »
One thing about the whole problem of familiarity and casual approach, I think, is in part the result of templars and/or nobles hanging out in bars. For playability's sake, you really have to give them leeway to do this.

But, a templar showing up in the Gaj should have a damned good reason for being there. "Patrolling" is not a damned good reason, or even a slightly appropriate reason. The city has a militia. It is the militia's job to do patrols. If a templar does -not- want to breed familiarity, then he shouldn't even be stepping foot into the filthiest low-caste commoner's bar in the "accessable" part of the city unless he has very specific business there. If he shows up every week, or every other week, or every three days, then he should learn to accept that some people who hang out there (or whose new players generate there for the first time) will consider that templar to pretty much be asking for familiarity and casual approach.

It is no different, in my mind, as a rinthi hanging out in Trader's. You just don't do that, unless you have serious cause other than "Oh I just wanted to see who was around."

Up in the north the same would go for the Anakore's Burrow. A Winrothol wouldn't go into the tribal bar "just to see who's there." Unless a Winrothol had some very specific reason to want to know. Unfortunately the Sanctuary is across from the wagonyard, and the stables, and the closest bar to the city gate, plus it is the "gen room" in Tuluk. So it's impossible for it to actually "be" the high class establishment its description implies.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.