Author Topic: Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp  (Read 24014 times)

Sanvean

  • Posts: 2720
    • My Website
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2006, 02:41:34 AM »
Whoops, sorry for the triple post here. If it just got rejected, I presume that's because the original staff member who reviewed it rejected it.  You're welcome to e-mail him about it.  He was clearing the queue before I got a chance to look at the app.

Differences between the policy of one reviewer and the next is in fact why I'm trying to work out a coherent policy that all the staff can use.  While I don't think it's possible to come up with an entirely objective process, I do think one that is fairer than the current one, which leaves people pretty much with the luck of the draw in cases like this, is attainable.

Coat of Arms

  • Posts: 394
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2006, 02:44:53 AM »
Quote
The reader had no way of knowing what part of the description the word applied to.

 
But unless I'm mistaken, nigrescent means of dark or black complexion, which is exactly what I described in the mdesc.

Pantoufle

  • Posts: 760
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2006, 03:27:23 AM »
Quote from: "Lazloth"
I imagine you're playing the Brit? In American speech, there are two past participles for 'get'.


Yeah, I know.  I was actually just saying that to make a point.  Not that the past participle of anything will be used in an sdesc but there are countless words used in one region of the globe where, in another, they are unheard of.  On my side of the world, where British English is more common, most people I know giggle and guffaw at the word gotten.  They believe it's a bastardization of the original word.  Ironically, the word dates back to the Middle Ages, it's just that British English has done away with it whereas American English somehow revived the word.

As for this nigrescent word that was mentioned.  Without looking it up in a dictionary to verify (because I've never heard of it before now), I think it's blatantly obvious what the word means.  But that's just me.  Because of the fact that OPINIONS (let me say that once emore for emphasis: OPINIONS) will vary, I think the best policy is one which rejects inappropriately used words only.  If you're not sure if the word is inappropriately used, I'd kindly ask you to verify before slapping the stamp of denial upon my concept and, even more so, would greatly appreciate feedback and suggestions.

I'm not saying this to be rude or condescending, but the fact alone that there is no way to define which words are "obscure" and which are not should end the debate altogether.  I've seen sdescs with obscure words that I, personally, didn't like.  It's not that they were used improperly even, they just didn't have a nice flow (in my OPINION).  But if it makes the player happy to have such an sdesc, how is it anyone's place to say 'no'?  Moreover, I've seen sdescs with quite common, every day words that also didn't seem to have a nice flow or sound (like: 'the dark-maned man', maned and man just sound strange to my ears and eyes when put together like that) , but thereto again if it's not "incorrect" then that should settle all debate.

bloodfromstone

  • Posts: 1323
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2006, 04:13:20 AM »
Much as I hate to say this, I agree with Pantoufle. Not that I dislike agreeing with Pantoufle, but because I, personally, dislike the long, obscure words. However, the point is very valid. As Hymwen and someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, it sucks to get rejected and see the same thing/something similar approved on someone else. The only way to prevent this is without subjective terms, such as obscure, being placed in the rules.

It pains me to say it, but for the sake of fairness and all around happy goodness, the only deciding factor should probably be proper grammatical usage.
eeling YB, you think:
     "I can't believe I just said that."

Pantoufle

  • Posts: 760
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2006, 06:30:52 AM »
Moral of the story.  If it's not broken, don't fix it.

For applicant reviewers, I believe that it is imperative for you to differentiate between what is an incorrect use of a word and what is an awkward use of one (the former of which should be rejected, the latter accepted).  This is something which should be handled with leniency because, if not, we are subject to an unfair system where my application is rejected for a word, only to see someone using the exact same one moments later.  This kind of frustration is beyond words.

Having to decide between a system where a few misued keywords slip in versus a strict monarchy over our vocabulary, I'll gladly take the first option and deal with 'the mucilaginous, borborygmus behemoth with exultantly lambent eyes is standing here'.

Pantoufle

  • Posts: 760
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2006, 06:48:35 AM »
As this is a subject which I feel very strongly about (that being, freedom of expression), I'd like to make an addendum to my previous post.

This notion that some players use "big" or "obscure" words for contrived purposes is pure speculation on the critic's part.  Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.  The only person who knows the answer to that is the author.  So you (you in general) can go ahead and continue speculating until you're blue in the face.  I'm not saying this to be rude, I'm just saying look we have no way of knowing what's going on in the writer's head beyond mere guesswork.  Sure, I've thought it too sometimes.  I've seen some outlandish words and thought: is that really necessary?  Are you sure you're not just doing that to impress?  But I also know that I could have been wrong.  And what injustice it would be for me to tell someone else what I THINK they may be doing and use my authority unfairly by stopping them.  Believe it or not, sometimes "big" and "obscure" words flow nicely when combined with other words.  But what flows nicely to me may be awkward or ridiculous to you, and vice versa.

Many years ago now I made a character using the keyword 'gracile'.  It was rejected because the word is obscure.  To add to the insult, I was accused in less than pleasant tones that the only reason I chose this word was to be "different", which is complete bollocks.  I actually felt that word gracile flowed nicer and was more aesthetically appealing when combined with the other keywords used than if I had chosen the word 'graceful' instead.  Worse still, weeks later I met a noblewoman PC with the keyword .. gracile!

It's my character, it's my judgement call.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7509
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2006, 07:45:17 AM »
I have one last thought on the subject:

If the staff does accept obscure words, then it is very very very very (did I mention very?) important that they\'re accepting obscure words that are spelled correctly.  I don\'t remember the word, but I saw someone with one in  their sdesc. I didn\'t know what it meant. I looked it up in the dictionary, and it wasn\'t there. I read the person\'s mdesc but since the mdesc didn\'t include that word, and -did- include  lots of descriptive information, I couldn\'t tell which of those descriptives described the word.

I\'ve seen typos and misspellings here and there and like Cuusardo I do typo them when I see them. But I\'m not about to break character in the middle of RPing with a templar (for example) to tell the templar\'s player:

ooc Hey that word atitladonisyustal in your sdesc - WTF does it mean?

So players, if you are going to use an unusual word, it is your responsibility to use the most common spelling of it  (not the \"alt sp\" that you only find in Joe Scholar\'s Unabridged Obscure Word Alternate Spelling Dictionary), and to actually spell that spelling correctly. I understand the staff can\'t always  scrutinize every word in every desc that comes their way, but the words that pop out just for being unusual, I think, should be scrutinized.

L.  Stanson
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

IntuitiveApathy

  • Posts: 1147
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2006, 08:08:38 AM »
Quote from: "Pantoufle"
Many years ago now I made a character using the keyword 'gracile'.  It was rejected because the word is obscure.  To add to the insult, I was accused in less than pleasant tones that the only reason I chose this word was to be "different", which is complete bollocks.  I actually felt that word gracile flowed nicer and was more aesthetically appealing when combined with the other keywords used than if I had chosen the word 'graceful' instead.  Worse still, weeks later I met a noblewoman PC with the keyword .. gracile!


I agree with the previous posters that have made good points on why the policy should flow more from proper usage rather than from a subjective judgment of obscurity.

Take Pantoufle's example above, with the word gracile.  This is not an obscure word to me.  Having studied anthropology, gracile is a familiar descriptor to me.  It is still used today to describe a certain type/period of ancient human ancestry.  It refers to a more delicate (or less robust if you will) type of physical makeup.  Hence, upon reading gracile in Pantoufle's sdesc (and without having read the mdesc), I would have gotten the general gist of what was trying to be conveyed - a physical sense of grace.

For an app reviewer to decide out of hand what is generally known or not known is to me not a useful nor fair process.  Where is the line drawn?  When 50% of our population should know a particular descriptor?  How does one decide such a thing?  And is there really anything inherently wrong with selecting a descriptor that isn't common just to be different?  Shouldn't we be encouraging orignality and creativity, rather than trying to suppress it?

As long as people are using the words properly, I really don't see any harm in people using words that some might find to be obscure.  I'd really rather see some more interesting descriptors that are concise and convey the meaning of the player as opposed to the more common 'Amoses' of descriptors that every third character seems to have.
Was there no safety? No learning by heart of the ways of the world? No guide, no shelter, but all was miracle and leaping from the pinnacle of a tower into the air?

Virginia Woolf, To the Lighthouse

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 12659
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2006, 09:12:14 AM »
I would like to add that perhaps word length should be a factor.  I'm sure a lot of people choose obscure words so that they're most likely to have a unique keyword in any given scene.  I propose, though, that obscure words over, say, 10 characters in length do not serve this purpose.  It just gives people a headache trying to type it out all the time, especially if it's so long that the only remaining keywords that could be fit in the sdesc are just 'tall', 'eyed', 'man', and such.

moab

  • Posts: 1436
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2006, 09:57:31 AM »
You know, the more I think about it I find myself less concerned with staff policy on the matter and more with the player's reasoning behind choosing a particular short description.
 
Choosing a $10 word to "stand out" seems to be lacking in creative thought and this concerns me.
 
Short descriptions are a face (as someone posted) and also can help set the theme for the character.
 
I, personally, often choose very common, average-joe descriptions like "the dark-haired man" or "the lanky, scarred gith" because it fits the theme for many of the characters I like.
 
When I play someone who I want to appear as knowledgeable, intelligent and sophisticated (perhaps a Kadian merchant or a noble) I'll reach for more complicated words and phrasing - again to set a theme.
 
I think that complex phrasing and $10 words would be out of place on a farm-boy turned bynner and that helps me decide whether to use that really cool and very obscure word.

.02
quote="Hymwen"]
Code: [Select]
A pair of free chalton leather boots is here, carrying the newbie.[/quote]

Sanvean

  • Posts: 2720
    • My Website
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2006, 11:02:37 AM »
Quote
But unless I'm mistaken, nigrescent means of dark or black complexion, which is exactly what I described in the mdesc.


I think this is the source of the misunderstanding, and it's a great example to show what I mean.  Yes, you described dark skin in the description - but there was no way for the reader to know if the word in the sdesc  meant the skin color or the hair color or the eyes or even that it was a word that involved color.  Indeed, as you could tell from my suggestion, I wasn't sure if you were using it for hair, skin, or something else myself, especially since it is not specific to skin color, although it encompasses it.

When someone's using a word like this, it seems a reasonable courtesy to provide some help in the main description, such as "his nigrescent skin with its shade of coal".  It's not a major tweak, it's a small change to one sentence, and not one that changes the overall integrity of the description.

I agree that's it's not possible to tell when someone is using a word simply because they want to avoid a common sdesc unless they outright admit it.  And I'm not interested in policing people's intentions.  The thing that I'm trying to do is create a reasonable policy for reviewing apps that keeps people from being at the whim of whoever's doing them at the time and puts some uncomplicated and liveable standards in place - exactly so one person doesn't get rejected for a keyword and then sees it two weeks later running around on the game.

Coat of Arms

  • Posts: 394
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2006, 12:27:19 PM »
Quote
there was no way for the reader to know if the word in the sdesc meant the skin color or the hair color or the eyes


In my meager defense, everything about this PC was black - would I have been rejected with the keyword 'black' instead of 'nigrescent'? I have seen that used so many times. Besides, I changed the description like you suggested, 14 or so hours ago, could I possibly convince you approve it?

moab

  • Posts: 1436
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2006, 01:53:26 PM »
Quote from: "Coat of Arms"
Quote
there was no way for the reader to know if the word in the sdesc meant the skin color or the hair color or the eyes


In my meager defense, everything about this PC was black - would I have been rejected with the keyword 'black' instead of 'nigrescent'? I have seen that used so many times. Besides, I changed the description like you suggested, 14 or so hours ago, could I possibly convince you approve it?


Eh. It's a lame word anyway. No texture, nothing of any _life_ in it.
;-)
quote="Hymwen"]
Code: [Select]
A pair of free chalton leather boots is here, carrying the newbie.[/quote]

Sanvean

  • Posts: 2720
    • My Website
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2006, 02:43:54 PM »
At any rate, the discussion is less about individual cases and more about generalities.  Does the policy I mentioned above sound reasonable to people?

Intrepid

  • Posts: 1352
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2006, 03:52:15 PM »
Quote from: "Sanvean"
At any rate, the discussion is less about individual cases and more about generalities.  Does the policy I mentioned above sound reasonable to people?


I think it's reasonable--fair to those using larger words properly, fair to those having to look it up.
Proud Owner of her Very Own Delirium.

Twilight

  • Posts: 1714
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2006, 04:24:25 PM »
The English language evolves as people misuse words, and they come to mean things that they once did not.  I would be in favor of allowing people to slightly misuse words, rather than a policy that they must be used exactly correctly.  Especially as the sdesc space is limited, to get the right impression across is sometimes challenging.
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."

Gaare

  • Posts: 959
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2006, 04:45:06 PM »
i) look south

Next chamber [n]

the ?,?  man is here.

The desc must have something about general view for an observer who stands some meters away.

ii) the ?,? (wo)mans

After my PC actually see a person in a room, but did not have a chance to "look," I as a player must have a general idea. There are one million words in English and I guess 50K can be used daily. I realy do not like looking at dictionary, if I did not have a chance to "look."
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -MT

KingOfSpades

  • Posts: 49
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2006, 06:10:06 PM »
One of the greatest parts of arm that I loved when I first got into it was the fact that I couldent tell the difference between players and NPCs.

This new bombastic approach to sdesc kills everything.
IMMSAESL (Sorry I Made My Sig An Entire Sentence Long)

Marauder Moe

  • Posts: 12659
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2006, 06:11:21 PM »
Quote from: "KingOfSpades"
One of the greatest parts of arm that I loved when I first got into it was the fact that I couldent tell the difference between players and NPCs.

This new bombastic approach to sdesc kills everything.


How do you figure?

moab

  • Posts: 1436
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2006, 06:30:13 PM »
Quote from: "KingOfSpades"
One of the greatest parts of arm that I loved when I first got into it was the fact that I couldent tell the difference between players and NPCs.

This new bombastic approach to sdesc kills everything.


agreed.
quote="Hymwen"]
Code: [Select]
A pair of free chalton leather boots is here, carrying the newbie.[/quote]

Cegar

  • Posts: 885
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2006, 07:20:03 PM »
Quote from: "moab"
Quote from: "KingOfSpades"
One of the greatest parts of arm that I loved when I first got into it was the fact that I couldent tell the difference between players and NPCs.

This new bombastic approach to sdesc kills everything.


agreed.


Recently, player sDescs have become extremely wordy compared to NPC sDescs. Generally, I can see and NPC and think to myself, "huh, no big words. Must be an NPC".
esperas: I wouldn't have gotten over the most-Arm-players-are-assholes viewpoint if I didn't get the chance to meet any.
   
   Cegar:   most Arm players are assholes.
   Ethean:   Most arm players are assholes.
      [edited]:   most arm players are assholes

SykotikGith

  • Posts: 254
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2006, 12:04:12 PM »
I don't see this as killing anything, honestly. I see it as a way for the staff as a whole to have an idea on how to handle large/obscure words. Personally, I love the use of large words as long as they are used correctly. I don't mind looking something up. In fact, I love it when people make me look a word up because I like expanding my vocabulary.

However, if a word is misused, it can be jarring, but to me, it means that a person might not have thought the word through before choosing it. However, that opinion excludes non-native English speakers, because there is much nuance and subtlety in how words are used in English. I have heard it said by non-native speakers and by English teachers that English is the hardest language in the world to learn. I can agree with that.

I see the potential policy not as something that will totally kill the use of obscure words. I -do- see it as killing the "I used this word and was rejected, but a week later, I saw a PC with the same word and that's not fair!" problem. Again, if you are going to use an obscure word, more power to you, I think that's awesome. However, PLEASE use it correctly, so that when we look it up, we don't get there and go "She's doing what?! That shouldn't be possible!"
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz
"That is, at least, a step in the right direction, even if it is a step off the Shield Wall."


Pantoufle

  • Posts: 760
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2006, 02:32:26 PM »
Quote from: "KingOfSpades"
One of the greatest parts of arm that I loved when I first got into it was the fact that I couldent tell the difference between players and NPCs.

This new bombastic approach to sdesc kills everything.


In other words we should smother all attempts at creativity and use only the simplest basest words?  Why didn't I think of that!

All sarcasm aside, I don't see any importance behind ensuring NPCs look just like PCs.  Especially since ... they're not.

Jherlen

  • Posts: 1641
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2006, 02:58:39 PM »
I've seen NPCs with big words in their sdescs, though admittedly no words as big as 'nigrescent' or 'atramentous'.
subdue thread
release thread pit

spawnloser

  • Posts: 7313
Revenge of the Dappled Dickens Whelp
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2006, 03:30:49 PM »
My favorite NPC sdesc word is 'lilliputian'...it means very small.
Quote from: Malifaxis
We need to listen to spawnloser.
Quote from: Reiteration
spawnloser knows all

Quote from: Spoon
A magicker is kind of like a mousetrap, the fear is the cheese. But this cheese has an AK47.