Author Topic: Something to Think about During the War  (Read 12837 times)

Halaster

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2006, 04:06:56 PM »
From what I've personally seen, I disagree with the person who sent in the request that Sanvean then posted.  I have seen an adequate amount of "fear", all things considered.  As people have stated, showing fear gets you in trouble.  People fear the templarate more than the mages, so they keep their outward visible fear in check.

As staff, we see more than just what they say and emote - we see their thinks and feels.  And like I said, I'm satisfied overall with where things have been (there are always exceptions, but I'm talking trends).
Halaster


Bebop

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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2006, 04:10:55 PM »
You don't have to gasp in fear etc but I think what the IMMs are trying to say is that your character would at the very least not be comfortable with magickers.   Even if  a magicker is fighting for your side they are still doing things like creating pools of water and balls of light.  Holy Shit!  That'll give you nightmares - if they can do that who knows what they can do to you if they get you confused with the enemy or maybe if you look at them wrong.

Shy away from them, when you see a magicker RP going a distance away from them to sit, drinking their water with fear everytime.  Refusing any kind of magicker assistance unless you are at the throws of death.  I think it basically comes down to:

Don't be casual about it.

And if your character is becoming accustom to magickers due to the HRPT, RP it out.  Express your confusion that these monsters can actually be human in intricate thinks etc.  My last magicker grew up in Allanak and -she- was still afraid of some other magickers just because of what she had been taught growing up.

Also I would suggest to the magickers to separate themselves if they intend on just practicing their spells.  Unless you are doing something to assist the soldiers go off on your own to practice - make it private, let's leave some of they mystique to magick yes?

Jakahri

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2006, 04:14:17 PM »
Quote from: "moab"
Be the change you want to see.

You want people to fear magick?  Make them fear magick.


Sorry, this doesn't always work. A recent character I ran was a highly powerful mage. No matter what he did, or who he killed, he was never feared by anyone except for a few well played desert elves. Everyone else seemed oblivious to the fact that he could destroy half of a city if he felt like it. I attempted to display my true potential, though only a handful of players actually roleplayed what I would consider true fear.
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This is an unrealistic game.

(which is part of its appeal)

No doubt. *flex*

SpyGuy

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2006, 04:17:02 PM »
From the Allanaki camp side:

Having played a magick fearing character I can definitely sympathize with the OP Sanvean posted though I didn't write in.  It isn't that there aren't magicker fearing character on both sides of the war but that they sometimes appear to be the exception.  Particularly people who -visibly- fear and distrust magick, as far as intricate thinks go only the IMMs would know.  

To me it often seems like people play their PCs as being so logical that they walk themselves into a trap.  Joe is a magicker, I fear Joe.  Templar Bob uses Joe though so I must put up with Joe.  Joe casts useful spells that help me and has saved my life, maybe Joe isn't so bad after all.  Talking with Joe in a bar he's really well played and nice and maybe he's ok after all.  To me it often seems like people deal with this situation then it begins to slowly bleed into all other magicker reactions (I'm guilty of this too from time to time).  I've played a PC a lot like Joe the magicker as well and personally thought it was sometimes too easy to become accepted but I also like to think I played Joe the mage really well  :P

A few tips to get more tension with mages:

1)  This is number one for a reason, partly because I hope new templars see this.  Nakki templars can be mage haters, mage lovers but most end up inbetween.  The sad part is most seem to take a soft approach to mages and the commoners around them do likewise.  Mages are your slaves, mages don't need to be coddled.  Make repeated examples of them.  Make up rules they need to follow to -shield- the commoners from their vile magicks.  In large part the burden is on PC templars to set the tone for how all mages will be treated.  You don't have to be a mage hater to tell PC mages to cast out of sight, to not do magicks right infront of mundanes and to be subservient.  Punish mages who talk back to commoners, then punish commoners who are repeatedly antagonizing mages if they're a problem.

2)  To all people:  Be superstitious.  Sure that mage X might have badass spells that can make you indestructible.  DENY THEM.  Unless absolutely ordered to deny spells even if it makes you weaker, worry about how it will affect your soul or whatever.  Then when you get the magick off of you make a sacrifice to the Highlord to cleanse you of the foul magicks.

3)  DISTRUST MAGES.  Never trust a magick wielding slave of the templarate.  Just build it into your character, never trust a mage.  No matter how much they sweet talk your PC or prove themselves useful just imagine them like the filthy beings they are trying to lull you into a false sense of security to lay their curses on your family for generation.  Treat them as second class citizens, stay your distance and ignore them.  This becomes much easier if the people in charge (PC leaders, templars and nobles) set the example.

4)  Don't compliment the damn mages.  They aren't your friends, they're your servants.  This goes into the whole playing too logical thing.  Don't treat mages as equals under any circumstances.  It may be tough when you see them doing very useful things but form your PCs thoughts to consider those very useful things the mages duty, what they do for the Highlord to deserve life.  Glass ceilings are a good thing, then it actually makes it an accomplishment if a solitary mage breaks through and can earn peoples trust.  But even that should be rare (or nonexistant) and a case by case basis.

I'm not trying to complain.  I have vastly enjoyed all time I've spent in the Allanaki camps and think all the current leader PCs (living and dead) have done great jobs.  These are some ideas though to get Allanak out of the funk of mage loving I see them getting into.  It isn't a bad thing for mages to be treated better, but it sure is a different thing.  And if it continues I feel that Allanak and its leaders may logically have IC problems on their hands.
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Anonymous kank with wings

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2006, 04:21:18 PM »
I think someone had a valid point about magick earlier when they jokingly mentioned virgins and sacrifice. Magick its isn't innately very dark. Alright, I don't know about the nilazi or perhaps the drov, but otherwise.

Yes, it's powerful, but it doesn't scream of evil the way summoning horrid demons to effect the magicks does - and seeing people get pulled down into flaming chasms by terrible claws before the chasms snap shut does - and spells that leave nothing but bloody ruins and entrails of former friends does - and victims being snatched away yet others still being able to hear their torment and death cries does. To me, the palable evil would create the fear.

Secondly, why should magickers be expected to create the fear? Many of them WERE commoners before they discovered their powers. Should the discovery that they are in tune with an element suddenly turn them into greedy, heartless monsters? No.

Halaster

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2006, 04:23:09 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"


Secondly, why should magickers be expected to create the fear? Many of them WERE commoners before they discovered their powers. Should the discovery that they are in tune with an element suddenly turn them into greedy, heartless monsters? No.


An excellent point to keep in mind.  The mages don't necessarily want to be shunned, so they're trying to make you like them, in general.  Or at least not hate them.
Halaster


Anonymous

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2006, 04:24:04 PM »
Quote from: "Bebop"
Unless you are doing something to assist the soldiers go off on your own to practice - make it private, let's leave some of they mystique to magick yes?


The magickers are making things more private than you may realize.

Gimfalisette

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2006, 04:24:13 PM »
Quote from: "Bebop"
Don't be casual about it.


And I would say, don't confuse business-like or militarily-disciplined behavior with casualness. The imms are the only ones who know what may be going on inside each character, and Halaster has just said that he's satisfied. I think fewer assumptions about characters' interior lives by the players of other characters would be a really good thing.

Also, about the length of time it should take to get acclimated to the presence of magickers and what they do. Humans acclimate quickly to all kinds of weird, crazy stuff on Earth. Why would they be any different on Zalanthas? Commoner does not equal dumb or psychologically inept, and superstitions and misinformation can be quickly overcome in such a hugely stressful situation as this war.

That being said, it just occurred to me that it would be really cool if, when characters return to the city post-war, we saw some with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) about magickers.
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

Dalmeth

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« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2006, 04:28:31 PM »
I'd really like to know how the magickers are using their powers.  Are they throwing out an emote and then casting, or are they making it into a long, drawn out, ritualistic sort of thing?  As it stands, an emote and a cast does not make magick seem very magickal.  It looks more like someone flexing their arm.
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Marauder Moe

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2006, 04:30:26 PM »
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
That being said, it just occurred to me that it would be really cool if, when characters return to the city post-war, we saw some with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) about magickers.

Neat idea.  Or, word about how much magick was thrown around got back to the city.  Veterans might be considered cursed and such.


Something else people should consider is that people who play gemmed magickers know what they were signing up for: discrimination, mistrust, fear, hatred.  While their characters may try to gain acceptance, the players expect such things and enjoy the conflict surrounding their situation.  Don't assume you're doing a magick's player a favor by being friendly.

Anonymous

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2006, 04:38:49 PM »
Quote from: "Dalmeth"
I'd really like to know how the magickers are using their powers.  Are they throwing out an emote and then casting, or are they making it into a long, drawn out, ritualistic sort of thing?  As it stands, an emote and a cast does not make magick seem very magickal.  It looks more like someone flexing their arm.


Is this fair? The code doesn't implement a long drawn out ritual, it implements a short incantation that can be used quickly in battle situations.

In fact this suggestion reminds me of Back to the Future III where the scientist has this huge, clanking machine that in the end produces a couple of pieces of ice. Great fuss for small effect.

Think about how you would deal with being expected to write a novella for every single time you swing your sword and you'll have a basis of comparison.

SpyGuy

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2006, 04:40:28 PM »
Quote from: "Halaster"
Quote from: "Anonymous kank with wings"


Secondly, why should magickers be expected to create the fear? Many of them WERE commoners before they discovered their powers. Should the discovery that they are in tune with an element suddenly turn them into greedy, heartless monsters? No.


An excellent point to keep in mind.  The mages don't necessarily want to be shunned, so they're trying to make you like them, in general.  Or at least not hate them.


And it's very easy to play your PCs so logically that they soon accept Joe the magicker because he's a really nice guy.  That mage is playing fine.  The commoner who accepts the mage easily, though, appears to be playing the exception.  They're being nice to the mages and losing all sense of fear and distrust.  This is just like if an elf was nice to you, would you then trust him and become best buddies?  Probably not, you'd probably think he was trying to screw you in some ways.  More people need to superstitiously worry more about what that mage is going to sacrifice them to when he gets them to trust him then about hurting Joe the gemmers feelings.

And when I say "need to" I mean need to promote fear and distrust for it to remain a core part of gemmed/mundane interactions in Allanak.  If everyone comes back from the war trusting mages and praising them as heroes well, mages could then become trusted heroes of the city.  And I'm not sure if I want to see that, though it might be interesting.

Edit to add:
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
Something else people should consider is that people who play gemmed magickers know what they were signing up for: discrimination, mistrust, fear, hatred.  While their characters may try to gain acceptance, the players expect such things and enjoy the conflict surrinding their situation.  Don't assume you're doing a magick's player a favor by being friendly.


Moe makes an awesome point here.
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Ava

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2006, 05:19:24 PM »
Code: [Select]
A ribbon-festooned mekillot has arrived from the north.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot pinches your neck, wounding you.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot dodges your slashes.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot dodges your slashes.
A ribbon-festooned mekillot pierces your head very hard--you see stars!
Magickal currents begin to swirl around the petite, pixie-toed girl.
Calling fire from the sky, the petite, pixie-toed girl blows the ribbon-festooned mekillot to kingdom come.
A small portion of juicy mekillot steak crumples to the ground.
> say (growling viciously) You damned wiggler freak. Whaddya do that for?

As a 'nakki player, I find it hard to not like gemmers (partly for OOC reasons: they're usually well played) and even harder to want to diss them (for IC reasons: they're hellabuff).
- They're on average no harder to get along with than any normal commoner.
- They're often kempt, wealthy, and well-connected, and my PC kinda digs such.
- They've fought alongside me, and never ever harmed me.
- They're under the thumb of the templarate.
- They're dangerous.
- They're on my side.

That doesn't mean my PC is comfortable with them, but that it's hard for me to maintain a dislike that goes beyond healthy fear.
Quote from: "SpyGuy"
If everyone comes back from the war trusting mages and praising them as heroes well, mages could then become trusted heroes of the city.  And I'm not sure if I want to see that, though it might be interesting.

I don't think it would be unreasonable for the 'nakki HRPT veterans to have a little different perspective on gemmers down the line, perhaps to the point that non-veterans think they're a bit daft.

jcarter

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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2006, 05:51:40 PM »
In my opinion, people should start becoming more calloused to magickers. At least on the Allanaki side. Magickers are mostly feared because there's not much known about them. They're the unknown, nobody knows the limits of their powers, whether they can only create a glass of water or drown an entire citystate in an ocean isn't something that really should be intuitively known. In the camp, people are kept separate, yet it's certainly possible that the people mingle. Some of the echoes in the camp support this notion as well.

This isn't really a black or white issue though. You might be okay with one magicker because they're laid back and don't go doing crazy stuff, while scared shitless of another one because they can burn villages with a snap of their finger. Individual personalities and temperments should be a factor in whether or not to be scared of some of the gemmers.

Anyone who has been in the Allanaki camp for more than a day should be able to see how much it pays off to at least pretend to be cool with a magicker.

Bebop

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« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2006, 05:53:40 PM »
Quote from: "Gimfalisette"
Quote from: "Bebop"
Don't be casual about it.


And I would say, don't confuse business-like or militarily-disciplined behavior with casualness. The imms are the only ones who know what may be going on inside each character, and Halaster has just said that he's satisfied. I think fewer assumptions about characters' interior lives by the players of other characters would be a really good thing.


I am giving my suggestions generally based on the player complaint that people are acting unafraid of magickers.  Also on the complaint that magickers are practicing every where and making things so blatant.  My character is not currently involved with the front lines so I can't say for sure what is going on there.  But those where my suggestions based on what I'm hearing.

I think there's a difference between people getting used to thing in RL like people getting horns filed into their skulls and say - hundreds of years worth of fear and tales based on a deeply felt almost innate fear to beings that have the way to possibly look at you and kill you in gruesome ways if the so desire for all most people know.

jhunter

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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2006, 06:04:58 PM »
Quote
Now take Episode I, II and III. It is like, everybody and his dog is jedi or at least can use force somehow somewhere. And jedi is not mysterious anymore they are just getting to be "an action accessory" which you enjoy watching while having some popcorn and soda.



And even when they were that common you very very -rarely- saw any single "mundane" character taking one on solo.

Dalmeth

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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2006, 06:06:29 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
Is this fair? The code doesn't implement a long drawn out ritual, it implements a short incantation that can be used quickly in battle situations.

In fact this suggestion reminds me of Back to the Future III where the scientist has this huge, clanking machine that in the end produces a couple of pieces of ice. Great fuss for small effect.

Think about how you would deal with being expected to write a novella for every single time you swing your sword and you'll have a basis of comparison.


I referring to things like making food and getting water, or even making lightning storms.

Have the voices of the magickers murmuring in the wind as the lightning storms strike.  Make it creepy!

Of course, the imms have to help, but what's an HRPT without imm support?
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jhunter

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« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2006, 06:07:34 PM »
Quote
As a 'nakki player, I find it hard to not like gemmers (partly for OOC reasons: they're usually well played) and even harder to want to diss them (for IC reasons: they're hellabuff).
- They're on average no harder to get along with than any normal commoner.
- They're often kempt, wealthy, and well-connected, and my PC kinda digs such.
- They've fought alongside me, and never ever harmed me.
- They're under the thumb of the templarate.
- They're dangerous.
- They're on their own side.



Let me make an edit to make this more accurate considering that most of the intelligent beings in the known world do not trust magickers.

SpyGuy

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2006, 06:14:21 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
Quote
As a 'nakki player, I find it hard to not like gemmers (partly for OOC reasons: they're usually well played) and even harder to want to diss them (for IC reasons: they're hellabuff).
- They're on average no harder to get along with than any normal commoner.
- They're often kempt, wealthy, and well-connected, and my PC kinda digs such.
- They've fought alongside me, and never ever harmed me.
- They're under the thumb of the templarate.
- They're dangerous.
- They're on their own side.



Let me make an edit to make this more accurate considering that most of the intelligent beings in the known world do not trust magickers.


Exactly.  One issue is there is a lot of trust going around from mundanes to magickers.  Sure, they really might be loyal.  OOCly you may see all the signs that working with them is really beneficial and overall good for your PC.  But to properly RP the fear, dislike and distrust of magickers you need to throw out any element of being logical about the issue.  Never trust a mage no matter what because to many commoners they would not be considered human, they aren't people.  They're creatures caged to be used by the Highlord and kept separate because they're dangerous, deadly and can never be trusted.

But that's just one interpretation, the one I try to use to keep myself from falling into the "Magickers are nice and I see them all the time so my character is going to like them" trap.  Because I feel people who do end up liking or openly accepting magickers, even among those who are regularly exposed to them, will always be the exception.
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jhunter

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« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2006, 06:16:44 PM »
Quote
But that's just one interpretation, the one I try to use to keep myself from falling into the "Magickers are nice and I see them all the time so my character is going to like them" trap. Because I feel people who do end up liking or openly accepting magickers, even among those who are regularly exposed to them, will always be the exception.


Yep. It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.

Gimfalisette

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« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2006, 06:23:03 PM »
Well, all of that is just a Nakki problem, then. We're definitely not at risk of deciding to like and hang out with magickers in Tuluk. Yet another reason why Tuluk is better  :P
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

Pantoufle

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« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2006, 06:26:13 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.


Of course they are.  They want to interact because this is a MULTI-USER game.  Can you blame them?  The purpose of fear and hate is not to segregate the playerbase from interacting with one another in any way shape or form, it's to help define one's role and actually ENCOURAGE (the right kind of) interaction.

jhunter

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2006, 06:29:13 PM »
Quote from: "Pantoufle"
Quote from: "jhunter"
It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.


Of course they are.  They want to interact because this is a MULTI-USER game.  Can you blame them?  The purpose of fear and hate is not to segregate the playerbase from interacting with one another in any way shape or form, it's to help define one's role and actually ENCOURAGE (the right kind of) interaction.


I don't recall having said anything about segregating them. My point is that you can remain IC and still have interaction. I don't give a flying fuck what their reason is for doing it, it doesn't make it right.

Pantoufle

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« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2006, 06:45:51 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
I don't give a flying fuck what their reason is for doing it, it doesn't make it right.


Thank you for taking the time to respond politely.

By the same logic you've used, a player in a remote village who encounters another PC should ignore them (or, at the very least, not make direct efforts to interact with them) since that other person is but one individual amongst a crowd of virtual people.  If we apply the same logic you are forcefeeding us, we'd likely all sit in taverns, ignore one another, and scarcely (if at all) interact.  

I'm not excusing the actions of players who bypass their character concept or IC realities just for the sake of interaction, but your original statement about people looking for reasons to interact as a bad thing is the kind of elitist remark which leads to stagnation and a lack of plotlines.  To use the aforementioned scenario again, if I am sitting in a tavern in Cenyr and in walks a PC, you're damn right I'm going to LOOK FOR reasons to interact with that person!  Even if they're sitting on the other side of the room from me.

jhunter

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2006, 06:55:22 PM »
Did you actually read what I posted or just the last sentence?


I said:

Quote
I don't recall having said anything about segregating them. My point is that you can remain IC and still have interaction.


Also, my original statement was not:

Quote
about people looking for reasons to interact as a bad thing


What it was, in reality:

Quote
It seems to me sometimes that some people actively look for reasons not to fear magickers or reasons to get along with them.


Nowhere, in -any- of my posts did I say -anything- about the -interaction- in and of itself. Please, I'm really not trying to be rude to you Pantoufle, but read what I actually said and then read over your responses. You seem to be getting an attitude about something that I -never- said.