Author Topic: Something to Think about During the War  (Read 12207 times)

Halaster

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #100 on: July 12, 2006, 10:30:58 AM »
Quote from: "moab"
Request to Halasturd:

Please stop misreporting on Allanak's losses.


Your Tuluki bias is most disturbing!

;-)


Heh, and here I thought someone accused me of being one-sided in the OTHER direction.  Silly players.
Halaster


Morfeus

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #101 on: July 12, 2006, 10:35:31 AM »
Quote from: "Tlaloc"
And to add: the War is far from over.


I cannot say I really like this comment. I am sure we are going to win in a matter of a few days, or at worst weeks.

Wait...

Which side I am fighting for once again?

Jherlen

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #102 on: July 12, 2006, 10:37:31 AM »
Maybe you'll win the battle, but not the War...

... or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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Hymwen

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2006, 10:47:16 AM »
Quote from: "Tlaloc"
And to add: the War is far from over.


While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...
b]YB <3[/b]


Soldier Boy

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2006, 10:52:54 AM »
Quote from: "Hymwen"
Quote from: "Tlaloc"
And to add: the War is far from over.


While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...


Heh. Same here. I'm enjoying things, but I'm definitely starting to get a small case of "cabin fever."

Barzalene

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2006, 11:16:15 AM »
I've read most of the thread, not all. Forgive me if I'm making a point that's been made.

If you were in a war zone with heavy shelling, at first you'd probably be peeing your pants, wanting to cry. But... bodies aren't made to sustain that level of stress over a long period of time. So, to an extent you'd grow inured to the noise and imminent threat of death. And you would become more functional. But, the fear is still there. You're just not having the heightened reaction to it. You'd never grow to like it.

I thought someone made an interesting suggestion about magickers trying to do their non-combat immediatly war magicks out of the eyes of the general soldiers. And someone else said that the higher ups told them to get over the fear. One thing that those higher ups could do is to make the suggestion in game, where instead of yelling at the scared soldiers to be unafraid, tell them magickers to only practice in set areas. If that's possible with the way the camps are set up.
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Pantoufle

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #106 on: July 12, 2006, 11:19:01 AM »
Quote from: "Halaster"
I see no reason why both cannot happen. Some commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them even more, because they heard tales of what happened and are now more scared. Other commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them less, because they heard tales of what happened and are now less scared. Different people react differently to different situations. Heck, it might even polarize certain segements of the Allanaki population against each other as they sort of take sides in the "magicker debate". If there even is a magicker debate.

I guess part of what I'm saying is that you can't really say "commoners will do this or that after the war", because there can very easiliy be multiple reactions.


These statements are, far and away, the most encouraging words I have heard -- particularly coming from a staff member -- in a very long time.  It's warming to know that documentation and help files are there for our interpretation, rather than narrow minded one sidedness which forces our characters into a solely black or white mould.

Bravo!

Empress

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #107 on: July 12, 2006, 04:44:49 PM »
Okay I havn't read the whole thread, so if i'm repeating something or completely miss the point then sorry!   :shock:  I agree with what Vesperas said though about nakkis maybe fearing gemmed magickers less just because they are on a sort of leash.

I see it like how I see guns in real life.  I know most of you Americans give them to your babies to play with, but as a Canadian I fear guns more than anything else  :lol: If some random dude was running around the street with a gun, (like a magicker in Tuluk? Or an ungemmed magicker in Allanak?) I would probably run away screaming, but when I see a gun on a cop or an army guy (like a gemmeed magicker in Allanak?) i'm still scared of it, but I can ignore it.  Now if Canada ever attacked the US, most of us would probably fight with pitch forks and dog sled whips, but the few of us who had guns would probably be feared but as long as they were wearing a uniform so we knew they are on our side we'd probably be okay with it.  that's my theory.
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Twilight

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2006, 04:53:01 PM »
I don't like the gun analogy people talk about.  I think of it more like seeing a government guy in a haz mat suit walking around afraid.  Jeez, those guys in the know all have haz mat suits on, this could be bad...
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Empress

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2006, 05:00:03 PM »
Quote from: "Twilight"
I don't like the gun analogy people talk about.  I think of it more like seeing a government guy in a haz mat suit walking around afraid.  Jeez, those guys in the know all have haz mat suits on, this could be bad...


I see what you're saying, but I think it would be more true in Tuluk than Allanak.  Tulukis fear magick to the point where some might think they might get something just by being too close to a magicker, but in Allanak they have temples and stuff I hear and while you might not like a magicker sitting down the bar from you, it probably happens from time to time.  Maybe i'm wrong, but I think Nakkis are more afraid of what a magicker can do to you than just magick itself, hence the gun analogy.  Since my while point was how the Allanak army might fear magick I used that.
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LoD

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Magick.
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2006, 05:22:19 PM »
Quote from: "Empress"
I see it like how I see guns in real life.  I know most of you Americans give them to your babies to play with, but as a Canadian I fear guns more than anything else.


This is almost the exact analogy I use when considering how to treat a magicker.  The current documentation states, " Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas...".

Rocket launchers are mysterious and very rare to me.  I've never seen one up close.  I've never touched one, or fired one.  If someone was pointing one at me, I'd probably run away screaming or turn into a puddle.  However, rocket launchers are not mysterious and very rare to some of our soldiers.  They encounter them from time to time, train with them, witness what they can do, learn how to combat people using them, etc...  If there was a war that employed the use of rocket launchers, I (a civilian) would probably be on the ground with my hands over my eyes, while a soldier (military) would likely be executing the orders of his commanding officer.

Fear of magick is not innate, and it's not irrational.  Some people are afraid of spiders so small, that it can't possibly harm you -- yet they go about the house shrieking and hiding behind large objects.  That's an irrational fear.  Being afraid of something that can kill you, like a gun (or magick), is certainly a rational fear.

I think that the "gun" analogy would result in a lot of realistic RP that doesn't require people to treat them as irrational fears.  And that is ultimately what (I think) the Imms would like to see more displayed by the general populace.  Let's take a few examples:

:arrow: Magicker sits down at your bar.

Imagine if someone carrying a fully armed automatic machine gun sat right next to you at a bar you frequent.  He was dressed in such a way that showed him to belong to a gang that you friends say kills children in the street for no reason.  Would you strike up a conversation?  Nod to him politely?  Probably not.  You'd probably make an excuse for yourself to leave the bar and move away just in case that gun might go off.  Would you give him a hard time?  Probably not if you were alone.  Maybe the presence of 5 friends would bolster your courage, but I imagine most people wouldn't consider that worth the risk.

:arrow: Magicker confronts you on the road, alone.

Imagine you're hiking through the park, when you notice someone walking up carrying this machine gun.  I wouldn't wait to see if they were friendly or not, and probably move to hide, go back the other direction, or try to go around them.  If you were forced into a toe-to-toe interaction with this person, you'd probably be extremely nervous and do your best not to give them a reason to shoot you.  If they wanted to see your backpack, you might be inclined to hand it on over if it keeps that magcine gun from making a bad, bad noise.

:arrow: Magicker is a parent or sibling.

You probably aren't afraid that your parent or sibling is going to shoot you with their machine gun, but you'd still be nervous when they were around.  What if that thing went off accidentally?  What about if they point it at you as a tease?  Not funny!  The tension should be there, even with friends and family that you consider to be 100% loyal and incapable of purposefully hurting you.

:arrow: Magicker serves the City or a Noble House.

You figure that these people have earned the trust of some higher authority to carry that firearm.  They probably won't abuse that power because of those social controls, but the mere presence of the gem...er, I mean gun on their hip keeps you tense and uneasy around them.  They might feel it's no big deal, but it's a damn big deal to you if they get angry, frightened, defensive, drunk, or provoked.  Ever heard of an innocent bystander?

:arrow: Magicker stands as an enemy soldier.

Anyone wielding a gun that doesn't like who you are, how you talk, or where you come from is dangerous.  Very dangerous.  Whether you are a soldier yourself might have something to do with your reaction, but a regular civilian wouldn't think twice about hiding or sneaking away as best they could to escape the situation.

:arrow: Magick in a War

Guns are part of war.  Small guns, big guns, smart bombs, laser guided missiles, rocket launchers, all kinds of things most people will never see in their entire lives.  Anyone who has joined the military is probably going to be exposed to these things, whether they like them or not.  And they are going to be told and trained to control their fear of them while operating in the field.  Sure, some will still freeze up when shells are zipping about their heads, but self preservation becomes a powerful agent against fear when the choice is kill or be killed.

Those are a few observations of how I'd see folks feeling about a magicker without subscribing to some "irrational" fear.

-LoD

Halaster

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2006, 05:49:39 PM »
I think LoD's post is a supremely good analogy, and right on the money.  I wouldn't mind seeing it archived, in fact.
Halaster


mansa

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2006, 05:52:14 PM »
I would like to see it archived...

And then I would like to see a 'sticky' at the top of the thread with links to specific 'awesome posts' of the past, which are stuck in the 'archive' section.
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SpyGuy

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Re: Magick.
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2006, 06:18:27 PM »
I agree with most of what LoD has to say but a few points I very strongly disagree with.

Quote from: "LoD"
Fear of magick is not innate, and it's not irrational.  Some people are afraid of spiders so small, that it can't possibly harm you -- yet they go about the house shrieking and hiding behind large objects.  That's an irrational fear.  Being afraid of something that can kill you, like a gun (or magick), is certainly a rational fear.

.....

Those are a few observations of how I'd see folks feeling about a magicker without subscribing to some "irrational" fear.

-LoD


I should clarify what I meant when I say irrational fears.  I never meant to imply there weren't many rational reasons to fear mages.  But I feel there are also many rational reasons to embrace mages, a large part of the magick system is devoted to helpful magicks and not just magicks that can harm or kill.  And it seems from this discussion that some people are having trouble reconciling the fact that there are mages being very helpful to the army, not showing them any reason to be scared, afraid or distrustful, and then not finding reasons to discriminate against them.

A huge part of any discrimination, be it racial, sexist or magicker related, is irrational.  It's a deeply help set of beliefs and superstitions that may have no basis in fact whatsoever.  And I strongly believe that a large part of roleplaying a Zalanthan is to embrace irrational ideas.  There is no logical reason not to take the magicker food and thank him kindly.  But should people be doing that on the city streets too?  If people limit themselves to rational fears based on what mages can codedly do, if they don't "subscribe" to some irrational fears, then you lose all concepts of curses, superstitions, folklore about dark arts practiced deep inside temples and all sorts of other stuff I love about this gameworld.

Rational and irrational fears can and should exist side by side.
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amoeba

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2006, 06:19:05 PM »
Heh, an image just popped up in my head based on LoD's analogy.  Think of the first Indiana Jones movie.   In the streets of the desert city he encounters the "warrior" with an impressive sword. The warrior is obviously fluent with the sword, and dangerous, whipping it back and forth in a fancy show of force.  With barely an emote, mostly just rolling his eyes, Indiana Jones pulls out a handgun and drops the warrior dead in one shot.

Buff mage killing warrior: 0
Indiana Jones (the mage): 1
quote="Morgenes"]
Quote from: "The Philosopher Jagger"
You can't always get what you want.
[/quote]

Dre

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #115 on: July 12, 2006, 06:38:58 PM »
Sooner or later all the PCs coming from the war will die and ultimately be forgotten...Any disposition, insight and knowledge on magickers will die with them. Their stories may only live on in the minds of a few players OOCly...IC bards will (Unfortunately) never sing of their heroics and the cities always quickly forget about them even if mentioned on the rumour boards. Fear and Loathing will return to normal soon enough.

I really do believe even the # of magicker PCs will go down, that its only a trend.

LoD

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Re: Magick.
« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2006, 07:05:29 PM »
Quote from: "SpyGuy"
A huge part of any discrimination, be it racial, sexist or magicker related, is irrational.


Perhaps.  I would agree that some discrimination is based on stereotypes which may or may not be accurate.  If someone has never met any magickers, then their opinions of them will be formed by the stories and events their society uses to describe them.  Those stories may be exaggerated.  Those stories may be untrue, but they are likely not irrational.  There have been too many documented and widely acknowledged events of magickal devatstation on a global level to substantiate a fear of all things magickal.

People aren't treating magickers poorly because "Grandpa told me all magickers were lazy bastards."  They are treating magickers poorly, and exhibiting a fear of them based on plenty of "fearful" material that is available to every single player in the game (i.e. The Dragon, for non-city dwellers, destruction of Steinal, destruction of Old Tuluk, etc...)

Quote from: "SpyGuy"
There is no logical reason not to take the magicker food and thank him kindly.


Yet, there are plenty of valid reasons why people wouldn't take food created by a magicker.  It's magick.  It's not created with ingredients they can see and touch.  It's magick.  If they eat it, THEY may become magickers themselves.  They might die.  While ignorant, I think all but the most desperate of people would be loathe to consume something that they might think would taint them.  It's not worth the risk to your common man.

I'm certainly not saying that a PC couldn't decide for themselves, based on multiple interactions with helpful magickers, to accept magickal bread and thank the caster, but I certainly don't fault any character who chooses not to accept a single thing from a magicker out of ignorance and fear.

I agree that rational and irrational fears can and should exist, but the fear of magick in Zalanthas is rooted in a long series of orally documented events with visible consequences.  That should be enough to hold magickers accountable for many generations to come and treat them with suspicion, hostility, and fear.

-LoD

Armaddict

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2006, 07:40:53 PM »
Quote
I agree that rational and irrational fears can and should exist, but the fear of magick in Zalanthas is rooted in a long series of orally documented events with visible consequences. That should be enough to hold magickers accountable for many generations to come and treat them with suspicion, hostility, and fear.


I think that pretty much explains how I feel about it.  I don't want to see everything change because they helped out.  I don't want to see it change because there are more magickers being social at the bar.  I don't want to see it change because people like what magickers can do to help.

The other part of my tangent, though, is that I don't like seeing the abilities of magickers glorified.  At all.  I think templars who did such would be taking a dangerous gamble with the attitude of the populace towards them (and while you may say that does not matter, I seriously doubt a templar would get mad props for his successes if it results in commoners causing more trouble or becoming a little less controllable as a result of his actions).  I think commoners who stood up for them would be looked on with suspicion and a small to large amount of loathing.

Like it or not, the sentiment towards mages is a deeply-ingrained, long-standing part of the culture of the people.  Even over a -very- long period of time, I think it would take a -lot- of work for their social status to rise, for them to become more accepted.  And every step of the way, I think the people would become more and more troublesome until that 'breaking point' in the distant future where people actually get an inkling of open-mindedness about the matter.

That said, I have no qualms with -reasonable- cases of PC's coming to better terms with mages.  All I want is for people to realize that it -will- be going against the grain, and that it would probably have more visible repercussions from the vnpc population than what is generally reflected in game, since those vnpcs show no actual reaction without someone telling you.
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Hot_Dancer

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2006, 08:19:46 PM »
Sure would be nice to have something to fear other than magickers for a change.

Hot Dancer
Anonymous:  I don't get why magickers are so amazingly powerful in Arm.

Anonymous:  I mean... the concept of making one class completely dominating, and able to crush any other class after 5 days of power-playing, seems ridiculous to me.

LauraMars

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2006, 08:22:15 PM »
Quote from: "Hot_Dancer"
Sure would be nice to have something to fear other than magickers for a change.


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Armaddict

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2006, 08:35:38 PM »
Quote
Sure would be nice to have something to fear other than magickers for a change.


There are -tons- of things to fear.  Have you actually looked at what some of the wildlife of this game is -like-?

Just because you know you can kill it doesn't mean it's not scary.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

EvilRoeSlade

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #121 on: July 12, 2006, 10:01:39 PM »
Quote from: "Soldier Boy"
Quote from: "Hymwen"
Quote from: "Tlaloc"
And to add: the War is far from over.


While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...


Heh. Same here. I'm enjoying things, but I'm definitely starting to get a small case of "cabin fever."
Don't worry.  I'm sure you'll die soon.

I'm just now preparing to enter this war, and I hope like hell I don't come in just as things are wrapping up.
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John

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Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #122 on: July 12, 2006, 10:45:22 PM »
Quote from: "Hymwen"
Quote from: "Tlaloc"
And to add: the War is far from over.


While trying not to be pessimistic, I sure do hope we're at least half-way through...
I understand that sentiment. On the one hand, if you're not involved, it sucks. On the other hand, you can die any minute now and make a char to join the war. I'm really hoping to do the latter, although of course I somehow made a long-lived char  :roll:

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: Magick.
« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2006, 10:59:07 PM »
Quote from: "LoD"
Imagine if someone carrying a fully armed automatic machine gun sat right next to you at a bar you frequent.  He was dressed in such a way that showed him to belong to a gang that you friends say kills children in the street for no reason.  Would you strike up a conversation?  Nod to him politely?  Probably not.  You'd probably make an excuse for yourself to leave the bar and move away just in case that gun might go off.
Small problem though, you don't want to risk offending the gun-totter, especially if they can kill you no matter where you go. If you leave, he might think you left because of him and get offended and curse you and you're whole family.

And that is why I think not running away the second you see a magicker is completely fine.

Guido

  • Posts: 61
Something to Think about During the War
« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2006, 11:37:19 PM »
How does one make a character to join the war? I'm not familiar with special apps or any of that mojo.