Author Topic: Desert Elf Misconceptions  (Read 8725 times)

Dan

  • Posts: 2332
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2003, 10:29:24 PM »
D-elves live in the desert and have to slog through rough terrain all the time, wherever they go. C-elves walk the streets and have cobble stones to trip over instead of shield walls to climb. It would be natural that someone who has worked their legs their whole lives would be able to run further and faster than someone who walks on level, easy streets their whole lives. As for c-elves being smarter, I disagree, they are the same race, thus have the same chance of being just as intelligent as any other in the race. If anything it would be that d-elves know more concerning the deserts/tribe lands, and c-elves are street smart... and im pretty sure this is how it already is.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Dan

  • Posts: 2332
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2003, 10:33:59 PM »
Sidenote: D-elf movement points are real easy to abuse. I once had a d-elf with around 400 movement points becuase of sandcloth and his endurance. You have to keep in mind its not good rp to run from gith terratory to Tuluk in one shot, its just real far... I mean, come on. Keep this stuff in mind when playing.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Angela Christine

  • Posts: 6595
Can't argue with that.
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2003, 12:55:21 AM »
Quote from: "Delerak"
So can someone explain to me why city elves do not have the code benefits of desert elves.  They are the same race, however the city elves start with 170 movements or something, compared to a d-lves 320+ and the d-elves lose hardly any when running.  


You are right, d-elfs should start with around 170 movement too.  Nobody (who isn't playing a kank) needs 300+ movement points.

AC
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

Dan

  • Posts: 2332
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2003, 02:05:54 AM »
It takes a harder type of person to live in the desert, I think their stamina demonstrates this. I think d-elves are just fine with the stamina they have becuase it represents their hardened nature. There is a spot with one char that I have to travel constantly that drops around 60 stamina, add this to other stoney barrens and such as that and im down half my stamina just going to the bar. It is fine as it is, a -few- just have to stop abusing their ability to run really far with d-elves.

To tell the truth, if d-elf base stamina was dropped to 170, I wouldn't be able to hunt at all in my general area. I would be at around 100 stamina when I came out to a place where animals might be, drop another 30, moving through 10 rooms at 3 each and im at 70, not even able to get back to camp, then the added weight of hides from my low strength and I have to camp out a while in the heat unless I add even more weight of a tent. Were looking at a problem. Playability problem.

BTW Delerak, the only reason you weren't losing any is because you would stick to roads. Just a guess. If your desert elf sticks to the -desert- then you will see why you have as many movement points as you do.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Kronus

  • Posts: 179
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2003, 02:13:06 AM »
I'm with Dan on this. :) Yes, a few desert elf players might take advantage of their running abilities to make frequent trips from Red Storm East to Tuluk and back again in under a day. I think that most desert elves are pretty good about picking a smaller territory and sticking to it, and let me tell you, even 350 mvs disappears pretty fast when you're out scouting for threats off of the roads, or hunting and trying to bring back more meat to your tribe than you yourself will consume the next time 'You are getting hungry' shows up.
Kanks really can't keep up with a running elf, so unfortunately they only have limited use for a d-elf as even pack animals. Good to take a load from point A to point B, but bad for criss-crossing the desert at running speed. Between abysmal strength and the long distances that "desert elf territory" encompasses, even packing home a few light pelts, to say nothing of heavier shells  or large hides, can put an elf in serious trouble if he doesn't plan the trip wisely.

Angela Christine

  • Posts: 6595
Sometimes less is more
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2003, 02:35:00 AM »
Quote from: "Dan"

To tell the truth, if d-elf base stamina was dropped to 170, I wouldn't be able to hunt at all in my general area. I would be at around 100 stamina when I came out to a place where animals might be, drop another 30, moving through 10 rooms at 3 each and im at 70, not even able to get back to camp, then the added weight of hides from my low strength and I have to camp out a while in the heat unless I add even more weight of a tent. Were looking at a problem. Playability problem.


You could always do what non-elf walkers and erdlu riders do: stop periodically to rest.   :)   Not every rider rides kanks, with the more exotic mounts you have to stop and rest if you want to go all the way from 'Nak to Tuluk or ride around in rough terrain hunting.

As for getting home with hides, the docs say that elves don't ride but they do use pack animals.  PC d-elfs don't, at least I've never seen one with a pack animal.  When I tried to use a pack animal as a d-elf it didn't work too well, because my kank became exhausted long before my elf did.  Lowering the d-elf movement to around 170-200 would make pack animals practical again.  Desert elves are tough, but I don't think they should be able to go farther than a kank.  That's just silly.  If the Blackwing outpost still doesn't have a stable, it would probably be necessary to add one to make pack animals really practical.


Toning down the d-elves slightly would lessen the complaints of people who don't have the Karma to play them, or who prefer c-elfs but resent their "inferiority" to their wild cousins.   Lower total # of movement points would also mean you would go from totally exhausted to fully rested faster, so there would be less time spent idle waiting to regen between trips.  There would still be the free skill differences, the available guilds difference, and d-elfs would still be able to run accross rough terrain at lower movement cost than any other race -- so it isn't like taking 100 movement points off would cripple them.  Heck, droping 100 movement points off them might even be enough to drop them down to a non-karma race (or make getting that first point of karma easier) making them available to more people that are interested in Tribal Roleplaying.

AC
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

Kronus

  • Posts: 179
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2003, 02:56:25 AM »
Quote
Heck, droping 100 movement points off them might even be enough to drop them down to a non-karma race (or make getting that first point of karma easier) making them available to more people that are interested in Tribal Roleplaying.


Opening up desert elves to everyone would be a Bad Thing, in my eyes.

D-elf mentality is hard to figure out. Tribal roleplay, elf style, is hard to get a handle on. Trust me, I've been beating my head against my desk trying to figure it out for the last month :)
Nerfing d-elves in order to make them non-karma would be a huge mistake, in my opinion. A big part of the joy of playing one is that the Tablelands really seem a lot bigger (than, say, the Tuluki grasslands or the scrab hunting-grounds near 'Nak) because there's no one else out there. That would get ruined in a heartbeat if there were packs of six to ten d-elves constantly running around, slaughtering everything they come across because "They're outsiders!".
Even with the karma requirement, and even with my own self being only just recently allowed to play the race, for all the great players I've met over in that part of the world, there have also been more than a couple who have made me grit my teeth and wonder if they read the elven roleplay docs at all. I don't think I'm the only one who sees it, consdering how this thread started.
I don't see how removing the karma requirement would help this situation any.

Meep

  • Posts: 135
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2003, 04:03:28 AM »
I have to agree with Kronus on this. ANY tribal roleplay is hard to get a hold of, from humans to elves, and elves (especially d-elves) are even more alien.

Most d-elves give up a LOT of social interaction to be able to play a karma class. Personally, I don't get the d-elves that hang out in cities and taverns (aside from the d-elf outpost) since it's near impossible for d-elves to trust outsiders, and other races moreso.

And as far as the movement, if you're running on roads all the time to make a trip from Tuluk to Nak all the time, then imho, you're not really playing a d-elf for anything but twinking out on their stam. Anyone who actually -hunts- across non-road terrain and patrols their territory, knows that even a copious amount of stamina goes fast. Some d-elf tribes have pack kanks, but unlike humans and most other races, the kanks do not belong to the individual, they belong to the entire tribe (and lets assume that the tribe that your particular d-elf belongs to even has a coded campsite and kank pen, because for the majority of d-elves, they don't have one or access to one.. the d-elf outpost has no stables), taking a kank out hunting and losing it means you're depriving the tribe, not to mention that on a flat expanse of sand or bluff face, a kank isn't easily hidden and most d-elves rely on ambush-like surprise attacks.

Unlike humans, most well-played tribes do not hunt an area clean, so kanks aren't even required, but that little bit that what you do hunt does weigh you down. Pack kanks are useful for when a tribe goes to a city or outpost to trade whatever it needs to but for hunting trips they are more of a hinderance.

As to the difference between c-elfs and d-elves? There are MARKED differences in ways of thought even though the elves as a race are intrinisically the same. D-elves are hardened survivalists. Most would, IMHO, feel claustraphobic in cities.. there's nowhere to run and hide if need be, too many buildings. A d-elf spends a great majority of their life running and running away from things. There's too many people in a city. Most d-elves, especially tablelands elves, come from small, fairly territorially isolated communities, Blackwing being the largest (although I am not sure on blackwing numbers). D-elf tribes range anywhere up to what? About 200 virtual tribesmates? So a d-elf usually knows MANY of his tribesmates (noone is a stranger). Then even interacting in the outpost, you're still looking at a population of less than 2000.  Now, stick a d-elf in a city that numbers, population-wise in the hundreds of thousands where they know few, if any people, much less resident tribemembers and it's VERY claustraphobic, especially with things like "government" and "laws" and usual, anti-elf sentiment.

This alone would drive most d-elves away from huge population centers. Sure, that other tribesman at the outpost might be trying to scam you out of everything you have, or worse, but at least you know where you stand with them.

C-elves, on the otherhand, would suffer a bit of the opposite, agoraphobia. You spend your life in a city surrounded by strong walls to keep those nasty beasties out of harms way, and you learn quick the predators on two legs to watch out for. You learn to deal with the phobias and prejudices of the humans who fill the streets, who you can bribe, who is easy pickings and hey, flat stones and packed dirt is a lot easier to tread than hot sand and dunes covered with gith. Hunt? Why? The most hunting that a c-elf has to do, usually, is a quick run to the market or to the grocer. Sure, it might not be FREE, at least while you have noone to manipulate into buying it for you, but even a few sid is a lot cheaper than bandages to heal the bruises and gashes on your body... it's also a lot cheaper than dying. Now, sid can be a little hard to come by, but you are pretty crafty, and you know that if you have the sid, one way or another, you'll survive. And if you don't have to put your life in danger to get it.. well.. leave it to the uncivilized tribals who think that putting their lives in constant danger is a good way of life, most c-elves would prefer LIVING.

Not to mention, while it isn't common, I have seen plenty of c-elves get hired by houses, officially and unofficially, and even join the Byn. So elves in the city -can- survive a lot easier, and even get paid to do so. Many of them act as paid informants, and why not? Hell... to a city elf, making a few hundred sid a month just by telling some stupid roundear what you heard in a bar is EASY money. It's fleecing them mercilessly, and the grandest thing is that they ask YOU. But outside... oh man, there's all sorts of things with nasty, pointy teeth, and it's so wide and flat and there's nowhere to hide, and people will kill you more often than let you bribe them. Why go?

D-elves are HARD to play for a lot of the reasons mentioned... constant danger out in the wilderness (d-elf means desert elf. If you are a desert elf playing in or out of a city, do a favor and hurry up and die so you can make a CITY elf), not even being enough around other races to understand a lot about the way they think, lonliness (virtual tribesmates are great, but nothing compared to actually having people to play with), -constant- running. Their rigorous lifestyle really is reflected in their stamina, and is possibly the ONLY coded perk a d-elf has only... it doesn't even do that much with most terrain-active d-elves. Taking away the stamina makes them near useless. Even pack kanks won't help if just walking around the hunting area uses up all their stam (remember? pack kanks might haul your goods but elves don't ride).

And I'll end on this note: There are d-elves who twink, whether it be stamina-wise or something else. But I've seen far less d-elves who do that than Bynners who travel from Allanak to Tuluk in a day or the various other twinky things I've seen. If you SEE an elf twinking out like this and the situation is unreasonable, then mail the immortals about it just like you would anything else. Cutting out a karma class like d-elves will do nothing to lower twinkiness, since it's not a symptom of the race, it's the abuse of individual players. One thing you have to keep in mind is that ANYTHING is abusable or twinkable, from merchants, to warriors to d-elves to magickers.
lt;Varak> "If my theory proves correct, weezers and dwarves, due to their similar evolutionary environment, should join in a symbiotic relationship in extended isolation."

Angela Christine

  • Posts: 6595
d-elves
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2003, 05:36:52 AM »
Quote from: "Meep"
Their rigorous lifestyle really is reflected in their stamina, and is possibly the ONLY coded perk a d-elf has only...


What about the discounted running movement rate?  The two free skills?  City and Desert elves having a common language while humans have several different languages, so unlike humans from wilderness tribes, tribal elves don't need to burn their subclass slot just to learn their native language?  They usually have high wisdom compared to every other race, so the advance and branch their skills faster.  High agilitiy too, with the obvious benefits of that.  D-elves have plenty of advantages.  

Quote from: "Meep"
it doesn't even do that much with most terrain-active d-elves. Taking away the stamina makes them near useless.


Eh?  Who said anything about taking away their stamina?  With my proposal they would still have twice the natural stamina of most humans.  With the potential to get up over 250 with the right clothing.  It isn't exactly nuetering them.  Even in rough terrain there is usually a shaded area, cave or abandoned wagon, etc., nearby where you can rest.  If you live all your life in the desert, why would you run all the way from your outpost to your hunting grounds, kill some stuff, and then run all the way home without resting?  They would still be able to out-run all other humanoids and many mounts.

The large difference between d-elves and c-elves, despite them being the same race, is troubling to some people.  This would just bring them a little closer together.

AC
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

crymerci

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Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2003, 06:32:13 AM »
Ok, I'm just sort of curious because I've never made a DE, but...has anyone ever made a DE that wasn't a hunter and didn't spend all their time running around? Or are those the only reasons anyone makes them? Is there actual tribal roleplay going on that doesn't involve running halfway across the known world?
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.

Hot_Dancer

  • Posts: 1573
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2003, 07:10:20 AM »
Creeper - Yes.
Anonymous:  I don't get why magickers are so amazingly powerful in Arm.

Anonymous:  I mean... the concept of making one class completely dominating, and able to crush any other class after 5 days of power-playing, seems ridiculous to me.

Delerak

  • Guest
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2003, 08:43:01 AM »
What you are saying makes no sense.  Hardened leg-muscles?  Stronger running ability?  Either you can jog for a longer time or you can't.  Now supposidly elves have it in their nature, they have evolutionized into being runners, just because your city-elf runs down streets instead of dunes and climbs alley walls instead of the shield wall shouldn't really matter.  Whats the difference between a human who has hardened leg muscles? Who stays in the desert his whole life with a background that states he never used a kank, should he start with 300 movement and lose 1 point on roads, 3 on terrain and 5-6 on rougher terrain?  Well the thing is you have to special app that.  D-elves already start with this extroadinary ability that I think would apply to any desert-dweller who lives their life out there in the harsh dunes (even if they are human).

Anonymous

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Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2003, 10:04:25 AM »
RE: Any desert dweller having movement capabilities close to what a Delf would have, what about the fact that a typical desert elf's dimensions suggest an internal difference?  I think it was Sanvean who suggested something along the lines of hollow bones being responsible for a desert elf's weight not being proportionate to his or her weight relative to what a human on earth would weight at 8ft tall.

I'd expect that same internal difference also would play a part in their extended movement capabilities.

deviant storm

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Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2003, 10:44:38 AM »
For once I have to disagree with AC. Just because some people are troubled by what a d elf can do doesn't mean they should be nerfed or made more like a city elf. It's the whole reason they're a karma race.

Sure they can be abused. But played correctly as I have seen some do, those movement points are vital. Not for running halfway across the known world, but for patrolling, hunting, sneaking, and all manner of other things.

Personally, I like pack kanks. But they aren't feasible. And I don't want my movement points lessened to make them feasible. It's just insane to think the d elf should be like the c elf. Why not make the half giants weaker, so people won't be troubled by them? Some people twink with them too. Or any of the other races or karma guilds one can pick.

I agree with Kronus and Dan. Completely on this one.

And to Crymerci, who wrote:
Quote
Ok, I'm just sort of curious because I've never made a DE, but...has anyone ever made a DE that wasn't a hunter and didn't spend all their time running around? Or are those the only reasons anyone makes them? Is there actual tribal roleplay going on that doesn't involve running halfway across the known world?


Yes, there's a very good tribe. Write Hot_Dancer if you ever want to try a tribe that is very good for tribal role play. Also, there's another thread on the gdb about that particular tribe.
A glossy, black-shelled mantis says, in insectoid-accented sirihish,
  "You haven't picked enough cotton, friend."
Choose thy fate:

Hoodwink

  • Posts: 144
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2003, 11:28:50 AM »
Delerak wrote:

Quote
So can someone explain to me why city elves do not have the code benefits of desert elves.


Probably for the same reasons that desert elves do not have the code benefits of city elves.  They are different in many ways.  In my opinion, even if you have a very sound argument, city elves should still be lacking in the amount of stamina they get over a desert elf.  Once city elves have the ability to truly run, then 0 karma players will make elves played as a desert elf when they shouldn't be.  I'm lead to believe that many aspects of Arm are based more on power balance than always realism.  I agree with you that if you can run down a city it takes as much muscle-power as running down a sand dune, but the fact of the matter remains: it would remove the barrier between what the two elven denominations are meant to represent.

I've never played a desert elf yet, so maybe I'm wrong  :)  It's just my opinion.

LoD

  • Posts: 1363
Realism and Desert Elf Life.
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2003, 12:03:08 PM »
Meep Wrote:

Quote
But I've seen far less d-elves who do that than Bynners who travel from Allanak to Tuluk in a day or the various other twinky things I've seen.


This has little to do with the current thread, but I wanted to address it because it seems as if it may be a misconception.  Armageddon is a game that real people play with their real time for fun and enjoyment.  Your statement seems to imply that because Bynners (or anyone) would make the trip from Allanak to Tuluk in one IC day (1.5 hours RL) that they are 'twinking'.

I must disagree.  If I am going to be handling a contract and there is a client waiting for me in the northlands, I am not going to purposefully take 2 days to get there and 2 days to get back so that myself and every other player with me spends a good 6 hours sitting around in the desert because I feel it's more realistic.  Not everyone has that kind of time for something so routine.  RPT, sure.  HRPT, definintey.

There is a balance between IC desires and OOC time frames that must be honored to handle business in a realistic manner.  Many people have 1-2 hours that are available to play due to work, school or other RL commitments.

Now, to be somewhat on topic.

I like the idea of desert elves.  I have seen many well-RP'd desert elves in the sands and sometimes in the city as well.  I have, however, seen many more poorly RP'd desert elves.  I've always felt that if players want to 'twink out' on combat, they will pick desert elf because of the advantages they receive.  There are palyesr whom select this race religiously because it already has a built-in requirement for killing and hunting as a guise for skillmaxxing.

Hey, I'm a desert elf - these gith are in my territory.  I need these animals to eat and survive.  I'm sapping gimpka rats 'till the gortoks come home because I want to save the hide.  Desert elves have an almost predisposition to attracting the wrong kinds of players.  Because desert elves can survive in the wilderness due to their speed and their insane stamina - they rarely deal with a coded or intelligent consequence for their actions.  I'm talking everyday, not here and there exceptions where the guy who's kank you just stole is running after you with a few buddies.

People who play desert elves:

Are held to have a tribe, which usually is virtual and has been wiped out.

Are encouraged to steal because it's in their nature and culture.

Are encouraged to kill because it's part of their daily activity.

Are granted several advantages over non-elves of the same class.

Can choose to PK simply because 'I'm protecting my territory.'

I believe that desert elves run a little rampant because they don't have the supervision (both PC and Imm) that the rest of the world usually does.  My suggestion (as I've said before) is that 4 established, PC desert elf tribes be made available to the players.  Each tribe with its own camp, NPCs, ranking structure, culture and objects that allow the elves to do more than hunt, steal and kill all day.  I would also make every desert elf HAVE to choose one of these 4 starting tribes so that they could be monitored, HELD to a cultural set of rules and responsibilities and basically given some accountability for their actions.

Elves within a tribe have to be held accountable if they start hunting down members of other tribes or peoples of the city.  The city could then approach the tribe and threaten them to either lead to war or to the tribe telling the player to stop "creating conflict" (to refer to a previous thread).  It would also allow the players to do something ELSE besides hunt and kill and steal all day.  To have a greater sense of self, community, consequence to their actions and tangible goals set forth by Imms and PCs alike.

Just my two cents.

-LoD

Meep

  • Posts: 135
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2003, 12:05:43 PM »
This is something I was going to post last night/early this morning but the boards went down for me.

The discounted movement rate, again, is easily burned through if you play a terrain-active d-elf (one who hunts and patrols anywhere outside of road-areas).

If anything, possibly c-elves should get city hide if they don't already, and get a partially skilled siri skill (not 100%), although most c-elves I've seen pick up sirihish extremely quickly. Human tribals don't necessarily need to burn an additional slots for a tribal language benefit, but to do so requires imm approval, something easy to get if you give a good reason for your character to have it.

Elves of ALL sorts have high wisdom and agility. Not just d-elves. It's like saying "No fair, dwarves are dumber than elves and don't branch as quickly, make elves dumber so dwarves can do it too."

Elves also have almost cripplingly low strength and their endurance isn't that hot either, even for d-elves. Also, c-elves spend much more of their time around humans and other races so can pick up their languages infinately more quickly, while a well-played d-elf who rarely goes into cities also needs to burn through a subclass learn them.

So yes there are coded advantages to playing a d-elf... a subtly different karma-ranked subset of the elven race, just like magickers can shoot fireballs out of their butts.. that's why they take karma to play. But the coded advantages are there to make up for what d-elves consider a lifestyle. Also, when I played a d-elf, I rarely hunted outside of a specific area of my territory and still managed to burn through stam (yes, sometimes even needing to rest.. *gasp*, mostly for the reasons deviant storm stated.. sure elves might get a bonus to running, but a lot of hunting for many d-elves involves sneaking around, which incurs heavy penalties, stam-wise. Humans rarely suffer this if they are out riding a kank. Let's see.. high stam and higher stam loss as compared to lower stam with no stam-loss on a kank...)
lt;Varak> "If my theory proves correct, weezers and dwarves, due to their similar evolutionary environment, should join in a symbiotic relationship in extended isolation."

Kronus

  • Posts: 179
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2003, 03:21:24 PM »
Quote
I would also make every desert elf HAVE to choose one of these 4 starting tribes so that they could be monitored, HELD to a cultural set of rules and responsibilities and basically given some accountability for their actions.


We've all seen how well that works, haven't we? I know I have. When I had a PC in the Byn, it became painfully obvious to me that there were people who wanted to play the MUD, and people who wanted to play the game. I hope everyone can understand that distinction without me needing to explain it.

For the people who wanted to play the MUD, no amount of PC coaching, lecturing, yelling and even attempts at imprisoning (which was a joke, since no one had the key for the Byn brig) could accomplished anything for the guy who wanted to go back into 'rinth and kill more beggars.
It's the same thing for d-elves. No amount of trying to explain to someone that they have to start thinking about the tribe's needs first and their own second is going to stop them from running off and killing gith if that's what they want to be doing.
Accountability for actions? Like what? Tribemembers really don't kill tribemembers for anything by the most extreme reasons, and acting like an idjit isn't one of them. They don't have prisons, and you can't really force someone to hang around the camp when you're not online. Again, if someone has no intentions of playing correctly, no amount of anything anyone else can do will convince them otherwise.

Imm supervision on the other hand is easy enough. They have, I believe, removed d-elf from people's available races in the past (essentially de-karma'ing them), and I assume they still do this to people who demonstrate that they're still not ready to handle what the race entails. They can't watch everyone, though, and they can't just pop down into the game and smite people, so it's possible that someone can still have a long, healthy, PK-heavy life before finally getting killed and realizing he's back to human, dwarf, half-elf again.
And that's a hard lesson. :)

LoD

  • Posts: 1363
Desert Elf - still a Karma race.
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2003, 04:55:47 PM »
Kronus wrote:

Quote
We've all seen how well that works, haven't we? I know I have. When I had a PC in the Byn, it became painfully obvious to me that there were people who wanted to play the MUD, and people who wanted to play the game.


Yes, we have.  It's called higher levels of karma.  I believe there was a time not too long ago when muls were being played around every corner not as slaves (the norm), but has free roving death machines (the exception) and there was a change in karma to enforce the understanding that MOST muls are slaves.  You could RP or special app for a free mul, otherwise you had to go the normal route that is set out in the docs and play out a slave mul like everyone else.

After this change happened, the freedom fighting muls dwindled to almost nothing.

I would also hardly use the Byn (the most newbie-friendly atmosphere) as a comparison for what players will and won't do.  The idea with desert elves is that these players should ALREADY be playing the MUD/GAME - whichever means that you're working toward the game world.  If they are just playing the game, why in krath's name did we allow them to play a karma role in the first place?

Desert elves -should- be held to a higher standard and reserved for upper levels of play and more dedicated, serious players.  The presence of the desert elf tribes is to lend them some direction, history and structure just like mul's being slaves does the same.  It helps to point the players toward adding to the game world instead of being l337 k00l.

The Imms shouldn't -have- to constantly police karma level characters if the structure of the game and the races are set out correctly - which I feel it is for the most part.  The most dangerous (and difficult) races/classes are high-level karma and come along with several restrictions.  All except desert elf, in my opinion.  More should be done to corral the players into working with a governed and observed tribe instead of making up their own, dead tribe and then acting like a human.

A karma player knows:

Muls enter the game as a slave 99% of the time.

Half-giants enter the game dim-witted, curious, impressionable and intellectually hindered from being a very good PK-race initially.

Magickers enter the game hunted in the northlands, registered in the southlands and generally distrusted and feared everywhere else.

Psi's and Sorcs enter the game knowing that if they are discovered, they will likely be killed on sight or hunted forever.

Desert Elves enter the game knowing they can create a BS virtual tribe to get into the game.  A tribe with no documentation, leadership, REAL responsibility, guidance, history or social order to answer to as they go through the MUD willy-nilly doing whatever they please wherever they please.

I'd rather see :

Deserrt Elf players enter the game knowing 99% of them will be part of 1 of 4 tribes that has Imm direction, RP and help to create a flourishing tribal atmosphere based on historical and practiced traditions.

Creating these tribes would have advantages and disadvantages in the eyes of the players.  The disadvantages most players would claim would be they can no longer be creative with their tribal backgrounds, which I say is untrue - you'd just have to special app them with documentation and a game plan just like you have to special app for a non-slave mul.

The advantages would be that 99% of the desert elves in the game would be working toward tangible goals with set guidelines and an established history, society, culture, goal and territory.  They would be placed in a tribe with active PC's and add to the world with the ability for both Imm and PC to create stories and interest through use of the established tribes.

-LoD

Kronus

  • Posts: 179
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2003, 05:18:01 PM »
Quote
Desert Elves enter the game knowing they can create a BS virtual tribe to get into the game. A tribe with no documentation, leadership, REAL responsibility, guidance, history or social order to answer to as they go through the MUD willy-nilly doing whatever they please wherever they please.


Aha. I see where you're coming from now. I apologize, I was misunderstanding before. I'm still not entirely convinced that this idea would actually work, though. It would, probably, help in 95% of the cases where a player, if he had a BS dead tribe would go running off playing a human with long legs, but once placed in a structured, tribal environment gets the idea and works to play along with the rest of the group.
There's still going to be the few guys who log on late at night and race across the world to get the same kind of club their last PC had, and then use it to bonk gith, but act like the model of tribal living when other PCs/Imms are on. For these people, no amount of anything can change that. They don't even want to try to play right. They want to do whatever they want to do. I know, because I used to be one.
I was assuming these were the people you were trying to address, not the other group.

Having established tribes might not be a bad idea at all. The one I know of works very well, for the most part. Bringing in Imm involvement, however, might require more manpower than they really have available. There's also the issue of populating these tribes. Even in non-karma locations, like Allanak, there's a serious shortage of people to populate all the noble houses and various organizations, and those are just the established, coded ones.
I would actually be very surprised if there were more than 20 active d-elf PCs on the game right now, and that's really not enough of a population to warrant such heavy Imm involvement.

Hot_Dancer

  • Posts: 1573
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2003, 07:19:54 PM »
Four tribes buddy? They can't even open Blackwing. I'd say raise d-elf karma to 3 and get it done with even though I have a pretty tough time populating my tribe with it being a 1 karma race.

(Shameless recruitment message)
We're still open and looking for more players.

Hot_Dancer
Anonymous:  I don't get why magickers are so amazingly powerful in Arm.

Anonymous:  I mean... the concept of making one class completely dominating, and able to crush any other class after 5 days of power-playing, seems ridiculous to me.

Dan

  • Posts: 2332
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2003, 08:12:37 PM »
Here here, send Hot Dancer a private message. Wonderful tribe environment, good docs... well, just keep him in mind for your next character if you want some quality role play.

I too think d-elves should be a 3 karma race, 2 at the least. Don't feel like explaining why right now.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Twilight

  • Posts: 1715
Desert Elf Misconceptions
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2003, 10:52:25 AM »
There are currently, to my knowledge, two -great- options for playing a desert elf.  One of these is Hot Dancer's tribe, which although I haven't played in, I have encountered members, and read the praise on the board.  The other is a newly opened desert elf tribe, which Bakha posted about on Feb 3 in Announcements.  I would -highly- encourage anyone starting a desert elf to at least look at these two options before considering anything else.

Having read the docs for the newly opened tribe, I can say that the docs are great, and while it probably doesn't have many PCs yet, it has the potential to be an insanely cool experience.  People may remember there was a project, started last year, to have 3 hard coded D-Elf tribes for people to start in.  This one is the first, who knows how the other two are going.  Going along with LoD's post, it would be great to eventually see 70-80% of PC D-elfs starting in one of these tribes, or Hot Dancers.  A D-Elf is just so much more fun with actual PC tribemembers.

As for the whole movement debate, elves are -natural- runners.  A human or any other PC race will never, ever, ever naturally be as good a runner as an elf, in any environment.  After a variety of D-Elves, I feel that the problem is not the number of movement points, but rather that some rooms give insane movement regen bonus's.
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."