Author Topic: Cavilish  (Read 3147 times)

Lost in Language Land

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Cavilish
« on: February 13, 2003, 12:17:19 AM »
I'm posting anonymously to avoid revealing too much about myself IC, since this regards a conversation I had in-game.

Cavilish is called the "Merchant's Tongue".  And yet, I am being told ICly that it is considered "closely guarded".  This seems strange for a variety of reasons:

a) Make a merchant (no karma), and you can speak cavilish.
b) As the language of merchants, I have ALWAYS thought of cavilish as a language that would be widely spoken in markets, and easily picked up by those interested in conducting trade.
c) According to the documentation (both on the web-page, AND in-game -- and yes, I realize they are one-in-the-same) "help cavilish" seems to indicate that it is a blend of Sirihish sentence structure and Bendune.

Now, the document does say it is "used almost exclusively by ... members and owning families of Merchant Houses."  This does NOT seem like a strong enough phrasing to consider it "closely guarded."  Ie. It CERTAINLY isn't Tatlum.  And it CERTAINLY isn't the ability to read and write.

Can someone please clarify this for me?

Anonymous

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Cavilish
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2003, 12:28:22 AM »
What sort of clarification do you want?

Does the PC who is saying its closely guarded seem to believe that?  Does your PC believe what is being said?

Nothing else matters, really.  What is said in response to your question shouldn't be used In-Game regardless.

I don't mean to be coming off as a prick, but I've seen things come up on the old board like this before.

They normally go like this:

PC A is getting reamed out or jailed/killed by PC B for putting on their codpiece backwards, or using the wrong bone utensils for their salad.

PC A gets pissed OOCly by this and runs to the GDB to ask whether or not its really a crime to pull the tags off of their mattresses because they were just killed for doing so.

Invariably someone posts a link to the docs where it says 'If you think someone was being an asshole to you, you are probably right, deal.'

If that's not your situation, then I apologize.

To respond to your actual question, considering the sensitive money matters that merchants may discuss in cavilish, I can completely see why someone might believe it to be a closely guarded secret.  I'd imagine most anyone who spoke cavilish could see good reason to keep as many people from knowing it as possible.

the dainty merchant says to the dune trader, in cavilish "Alright, I'll pay 5 coins apiece for those shells."

the dainty merchant turns to the rough-looking dwarf.

Sighing sadly, the dainty merchant says to the rough-looking dwarf, in sirihish "Alright, I did the best I could for you, that'll be 25 coins a shell."

Lost in Language Land

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What do I want?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2003, 12:32:18 AM »
I'm more interested in how this affects the background of my character.  Now, I can't just wander around telling people, "Oh, I picked it up here and there."  Now, I have to come up with some justification for why my merchant (who is not a member of any merchant house currently, and doesn't have "my father was a merchant" as his background -- I've already committed to something else, or I'd use that) knows it.  Because I am being asked ICly, and they want a justifiable answer.  And ALSO, I'd like to know so that, in the future, if I play another merchant, I can handle RP situations with this language correctly (ie. NOT teaching it to anyone who asks, for example).

Frankly, your answer was surprisingly unhelpful and combative, CRW.

Thanks

John

  • Posts: 4123
Cavilish
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2003, 12:39:53 AM »
Quote from: "CRW"
What sort of clarification do you want?
(WOAH! I think you must be as tired as I feel, cause I think that might of been assuming a BIT too much. We all get the wrong impression sometimes though and you apologised saying if you had misunderstood).

I think what he meant was "Do most merchants know Cavilish? Or was merchant X telling the truth when he said only Merchant Houses know Cavilish?" (well, I just went to see what the first persons' name was and saw his post, so I was right).

Long answer short, I don't know.

From what I'd read and my interactions IG, I'd say that most people play it so merchants generally do know cavilish. I've played quite a few merchants and I'd have it that they picked it up by listening to merchants in the bazaar, or that their father taught them, depending on their background.

BUT again, that might not be the right thing to do. I'm a newbie myself. I've never had an app rejected cause of it though.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
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Anonymous

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Re: What do I want?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2003, 12:40:24 AM »
Quote from: "Lost in Language Land"
Frankly, your answer was surprisingly unhelpful and combative, CRW.


Like I said, if that's not your situation, I apologize.  It apparently isn't, so I am sorry.  My gut reaction was wrong.

Considering its realistic both codewise and in the reality of the game world and our world to 'pick up a language' I don't see how you couldn't just simply say that.  If your PC has had enough time trading and working the nearest center of trade to pick up the other stock merchant guild skills it stands within reason to me that they'd also have picked up cavilish.  Hang around enough merchants talking cavilish behind your back, you pick up a word or two and the whole language opens up.

Rindan

  • Posts: 2825
Cavilish
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2003, 01:43:49 AM »
I would say that it is a skill is not wildly common.  The average Joe doesn’t know the language.  Now, how closely guarded is closely guarded?  I would say that merchants would probably make an effort to not give up the language too easily.  Knowledge is power after all, and being able to banter on a language others can’t understand with your fellow merchants is certainly an advantage.  I would imagine that most people who know the language probably learned it from family or from some sort of apprenticeship.

As far as fitting it into your background, I can think of a number of ways to do it.  First, family could have taught you.  It doesn’t have to be immediate family.  It could have been Uncle Joe.  A friend might have taught you.  You could have been apprenticed to a merchant.  Perhaps for whatever reasons you spent a lot of time near merchants and just picked it up naturally.  Maybe you always wanted to be a merchant so you made merchant friends or hung out around merchants so as to learn the language.  Perhaps you paid someone to teach you.  There are a lot of ways you could have learned.  I imagine that learning probably does not come easy without some sort of connection, but it certainly would not be impossible or even rare for the motivated.

Tlaloc

  • Legend
  • Posts: 1439
The wonders of Cavilish....
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2003, 04:59:31 AM »
Rindan posts some good points here, and the original poster's assumtions were all pretty much correct (from what I know).

I, too, have always imagined that the Bazaars and various other trading areas of the known world are largely handled in Cavilish. In fact, gennerally, when I have a merchant, I make sure I have something like 'CC' set up as 'Change language cavilish', and always conduct any sort of haggling with NPC merchants in the language.

To me (and this is just me), Cavilish is to Zalanthas as the Matrix is to William Gibsons Neuromancer, or ShadowRun (for those of you gaming geeks out there). Alot of folks know it: how to speak it, how to perform its little quirks and nuances, etc...if you do know how to speak it, fluently, a whole new world is opened up to your character...namely the cold, hard, black world of the obsidian coin.

For the majority of Zalanthans, going to the Bazaar, though an ordinary thing performed almost daily, is a simple task...you go, buy the goods at the price the merchant is asking for, and go home. But for the few who live thier lives by trade – the Merchants – a whole subculture has been built up, and Cavilish is the tool with which you can gain or loose huge ammounts of profit.

To understand the reason why, you have to understand the history of Cavilish:

From the helpfiles:
Quote

The legendary dune traders of ages past, once travelling merchants of nomadic heritage who spoke Bendune, settled in the city-states at Gol Krathu and Vrun Driath somewhere in the neighborhood of one thousand years after the Dragon's departure from the Known World. At once they began to adopt the languages of their customers, who spoke mostly Sirihish. Within their homes, however, they continued to use their native Bendune speech. With the passage of generations, the younger family members, eager to assimilate more fully into the culture of the city-states, made increasingly larger use of Sirihan language structures. And, as time wore on, their native Bendune became so changed that it was categorized by scholars as its own language.

Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the "Merchant's Tongue," since it is used almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses.


Basically: Cavilish is a bastardization of langauges, formed over time from the ancient Dune Traders. To speak Cavilish, then, almost implies that you have a connection with those Legendary Dune Traders; that you have a direct link to a Family of merchants, who's ties to the language and to the Art of the Trade are so ancient, that you speak the language. To speak Cavilish, then, implies that when you enter into negotiations with someone, you know what you're doing.

This is why it is a "Closely Guarded" language. Its likely that there is a large amount of pride that goes into knowing and speaking the language, especially when you get to the level of Great House family members. The Salarri, Kuraci, Kadians, Delann, Voryeki (even though some of those aren't -great- houses, they're still 'Houses') and all the rest would have a vested interest in linking themselves to the Legendary Dune Traders for the simple fact that it legitimizes thier standing.

New upstarts want to learn the language so they can, in turn, legitimize thier own standings against the other merchant houses. The guys who don't know Cavilish might be left out in the cold – shunned by the Merchant House Good Ol' Boys Club. Therefore, people might be hesitant to teach it to one another: afterall, once they learn Cavilish, they might become Competition...or worse yet, they might hear something they shouldn't, and have you killed...or worse, steal your business.

Just like people don't really teach one another l33t Speak. Cavilish might be looked at like a Zalanthan l33tspeak. Only a few people (relatively speaking...I'm sure the number is high, though) really speak it, and those that speak it well might be considered (within thier own subculture's standards, anyway), the best of the best. I never imagined that you'd hear it very often on the street, unless you were walking past a couple of Merchants doing some serious trading. Also, Merchant House Family members might -only- speak this...but only inside thier own homes, to each other.

Now, this isn't to say that its completely exclusive: after all, people aren't going to kill you over it (like Tatlum), and in the world of the Merchants, everything is for sale.  Do non-family members learn Cavilish? All the time. Can folks just pick it up off the street from listening in? Sure. Can elves and dwarves and even Half-giants learn Cavilish? You bet. But...its likely folks think very hard about weather or not they want to teach it to people, and weather or not they speak it around someone, unless they're going to conduct some serious Biz.

The helpfiles state, also, that it started out as the Language the merchants used in thier homes. So, therefore, it might stand to reason that the majority of people who learn Cavilish might still, indeed, be taught by thier parents and grandparents, uncles and aunts, cousins and so-forth. After thousands of years of Dealings, though, and because Cavilish by its nature as a 'Merchants Tongue', its been spread around alot more.

Basically, I see Cavilish as an almost exclusively used in Merchant to Merchant communication:

>The silk-clad merchant sits here, sipping some wine.

>The burly mercenary walks in, and approaches the silk-clad mercenary.

>The burly mercenary tells the silk-clad merchant, in sirihish:
        "Hey, I wanna trade some things here..."

>Hopefully, the silk-clad merchant asks the burly mercenary, in cavilish:
         "Oh? Excellent, what can I do for you today?"

>The burly mercenary tells the silk-clad merchant, in sirihish:
        "Uh...sorry, what?"

>Face falling alittle, the silk-clad merchant asks the burly mercenary, in sirihish:
         "Ah...erm, what do you need?"

>The silk-clad merchant thinks: "Amatuer. Markup times 1000."

Anyway, theres some things to think about, at least, with the whole Cavilish thing. This is by no means cannon, but it raises some issues that might be useful when thinking about the language, and how you can and should use it. Just from my own personal viewpoint, I'd love to see people make more useage out of it. I'd love to see Merchant Family members speak to one another using only Cavilish (not sure if they do this now, or not...but if they do, I must be missing it).

In the end, think of Cavilish the way other characters use Anyar, Allundean, Bendune, or Tatlum: its a skill with which you, and another character who knows it, can basically be exclusive. Merchants who know Cavilish have the amazing power of being able to communicate with other merchants who know Cavilish. This superceeds other language barriers like Mirukkim, or Allundean. Maybe merchants can be alittle more 'Cliqueish'...groups might want to keep a merchant around, to act as the Face of the Crew, for the sole purpose of speaking with the other Merchants, and possibly cutting them a deal (and if he's smart, skimming an easy 10% of the top for himself).

>Glancing over to a group of finely-dressed merchants, the silk-clad merchant says to a weary adventuring group, in sirihish:
      "Eh...let me handle these guys. They'll eat you alive."

>Picking up his glass of wine and flashing a grin, the silk-clad merchant tells the group of finely-dressed merchants, in cavilish:
      "Hey, boys! You'll never guess what I talked these loons into digging up in the desert! Lets just say its rare, its priceless, and I'd never, ever think of parting with such a fantastic treasure. Well...maybe for the right price..."

And the haggling begins...

Just some thoughts. The usual "These are just my opinions, and not nessecarially those of the Entire Mud Staff" applies. This makes me want to play a merchant, though...

-Tlaloc
Tlaloc
Legend


Midland

  • Posts: 88
Cavilish
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2003, 08:29:09 AM »
1)  I dont believe any shop keepers in Allanak, Tuluk or Luirs speak cavilish to joe blow when he comes by.

2) Did you consider it that those might have been IC House rules of the House you might have been trying for hire within?

3) Dropping into OOC to try and attempt to justify your argument with a "OOC that isnt what the documents say", isnt a good way of trying to win an IC disagreement on how things are.

4) Your IC actions cause whether or not you would be hired. If that's your BG, go for it, but dont get upset if how you play your character makes an employer decide you arent for their House. Maybe another House or clan will think that's great and pull you in.

5) I do believe it was posted at one time by the IMMS that you couldnt learn a language by overhearing it at a table anymore and to bring up IC that speaking the language at the table was teaching everyone around them the language, is using a code knowledge thing in an IC way. Try to not think of the things 'code' allows you to do as being the realistic way. As my pc tried to explain IC, that one doesnt learn a language by easedropping. One has to learn the sentence structure, the pronounciation, etc. That was because I was trying to role play how -realistically- a language would be learned. Not how a language is learned codewise.
color=violet]If life was like a box of chocolates we would spend all day inside being poked and eaten.[/color]

Bardex

  • Posts: 178
Cavilish
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2003, 08:36:56 AM »
It's a little odd IMO to not be able to pick up a language (eventually after a long period of time) by eavesdropping. That's how I learned a secondary language IRL. Not very good at it but I can understand basically what someone is talking about if not the entire conversation. Actually talking to people who use that language gave me more understanding but it's the eavesdropping that gave me the capacity to learn in the first place

Maybe they could make it so that eavesdropping will add the language to your skill list at its lowest skill level but not add anything else?
ugar and Spice

Twilight

  • Posts: 1714
Cavilish
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2003, 09:48:56 AM »
I'm not a language expert.  But how exactly do people think babies learn languages?  I can't believe that people think you can't learn a language by overhearing it.  Everyone on this board has learned a language by overhearing it, and that was their first one.  You had no language at birth, there wasn't a way that your parents could teach you language structure in a way you would understand.  You overheard it, and in time you came to understand it.

Most people loose this ability, apparently, as the years progess.  Not all people do.  People -are- able to pick up language by overhearing it, just as you did when you were a baby.  Probably just the way their minds work.

In this case, the helpfiles do say that Sirihish and Cavilish are related.  It doesn't say how related, unfortunately.  I picture a native Italian speaker trying to learn Spanish, personally, although others might envision an English speaker learning Spanish.  Big difference there.
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."

Found in Language Land

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Cavilish
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2003, 11:17:40 AM »
Quote from: "Midland"
1)  I dont believe any shop keepers in Allanak, Tuluk or Luirs speak cavilish to joe blow when he comes by.

This would sort of disagree with what Tlaloc said, but *shrug*.  Clearly you and I disagree rather strongly on this point.

Quote from: "Midland"
2) Did you consider it that those might have been IC House rules of the House you might have been trying for hire within?

Didn't even have to consider it, as it was clearly the case.  You'll note that my post asks nothing about the rules of the various merchant houses.  We're already getting far more IC here than I hoped to get, why are you taking this so personally?   I didn't mention anything about hiring into a house in my original post.

Quote from: "Midland"

3) Dropping into OOC to try and attempt to justify your argument with a "OOC that isnt what the documents say", isnt a good way of trying to win an IC disagreement on how things are.

Yes, I agree.  I was SO boggled by what I was hearing, especially your suggestion that Cavilish was in no way related to Sirihish.  I hope you'll recall I ended the OOC well before you did, and I apologize for going OOC in the first place, I wasn't even trying to argue there, mostly trying to explain why I didn't have adequate answers for your questions.  Your suggestion that I needed to read the documentation more closely led me to believe I ought to Ask the Staff.

Quote from: "Midland"
4) Your IC actions cause whether or not you would be hired. If that's your BG, go for it, but dont get upset if how you play your character makes an employer decide you arent for their House. Maybe another House or clan will think that's great and pull you in.

I'm sorry if anything in my original post caused you to believe I was upset.  Again, I wasn't in any way, shape, or form asking about your house's hiring policies.  I had thought that to be both a bit too IC, and not worth pursuing.  Obviously, houses and clans can make up whatever rules they please.  I simply wanted to know for future reference whether my RP was totally off-base.  From what I'm seeing, I was to some degree.

Quote from: "Midland"
5) I do believe it was posted at one time by the IMMS that you couldnt learn a language by overhearing it at a table anymore and to bring up IC that speaking the language at the table was teaching everyone around them the language, is using a code knowledge thing in an IC way. Try to not think of the things 'code' allows you to do as being the realistic way. As my pc tried to explain IC, that one doesnt learn a language by easedropping. One has to learn the sentence structure, the pronounciation, etc. That was because I was trying to role play how -realistically- a language would be learned. Not how a language is learned codewise.

Code or otherwise, I don't think people should speak "closely guarded" languages at tables in taverns -unless- what they're talking about is closely guarded.  Our conversation was extremely mundane, and didn't seem worthy of using a language you seemed so interested in keeping secret.  I don't recall having mentioned anything ICly or OOCly about how the code works (since I most definitely have no idea), this was, again, something you began arguing about OOCly in-game.  It seems -logical- to me that, if I grab an ale from the table, point at it, and say something in my secret language about ale, someone sitting nearby might pick up the word for "ale" in that language.  They might even, if they were bright, learn the word for "drunk," or "tasty" or "piss."  Especially if the language is rooted in other languages, one of which is -especially- common (namely Sirihish).

I really didn't start this thread to give vent to any in-game frustrations, but simply to understand better a concept I had not been familiar with.  I wish you hadn't interpreted it that way, and I especially wish you hadn't placed it in that context by adding additional IC data to the thread.  I certainly wasn't hoping (in-game or out) for a critique of my RP, or my familiarity with the documentation.

Thanks

Lazloth

  • Posts: 1783
Cavilish
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2003, 12:32:21 PM »
Quote from: "Twilight"
Most people loose this ability, apparently, as the years progess.  Not all people do.  People -are- able to pick up language by overhearing it, just as you did when you were a baby.  Probably just the way their minds work.


Language acquisition was never my focus, but it's interesting stuff.  The party line, if I recall, you sum up pretty well here.  If you buy into Universal Grammar Theories, language being genetically evolved from mathematic reasoning, yada yada yada, an infant is basically born with a a blob-like grammar that will accomodate every language.  As s/he interacts with the world, parts of this "blob" are trimmed away as the "rules of speech" become readily reinforced from speakers.  Because all languages, all grammars, are related by a distant great-great-grandparent cognate, this is not that much of a stretch.

This becomes much more difficult for an adult mind, as the process would be to unlearn the restrictions on "malformed" syntactic and semantic structure, not only to inherit the new lexicon and related baggage.
quote="CRW"]i very nearly crapped my pants today very far from my house in someone else's vehicle, what a day[/quote]

John

  • Posts: 4123
Cavilish
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2003, 12:44:11 PM »
Well, I think we should stop talking about specific events, cause I know my questions surely got answered by Tlaloc's post, and I'm pretty sure Found in Language Land's questions were answered too. :)

However Tlaloc's post made me think something. It makes sense for Cavilish to be secretive (if not as secretive as Tatlum), and the reason is merchants want to have the upper hand as much as possible. Now could this want/need for secrecy be transferred over to maths? I think so, but I hadn't actually ever thought of it before.

I imagine everyone knows basic maths (add, subtract, basic multiply, basic divide (e.g. they'd find 123/73 hard, but could work it out pretty closely). The reason normal commoners would have such a rudimentary grasp of maths is because I find that sort of thing hard to do in my head. In fact I find it impossible if it gets too complicated. Now while I've been spoiled by pen and paper, I imagine that commoners wouldn't be TOO much better then the average person IRL when it comes to doing things in their head.

Merchants would be much more knowledgable. They'd know all about fractions, profits and losses, percentages and all that jazz. Now while percentages and fractions are really just divide thought of in a different way, I imagine most commoners wouldn't learn how to do percentages or fractions, because they wouldn't need too. And I imagine Merchants would keep it a secret as much as possible so they have the upper hand as much as possible.

Just some thoughts of mine.

BTW, thanks a lot Tlaloc for posting these really detailed posts. I don't remember you posting much before, but I'm glad you have been the past couple of days as they've made me think about things in a different light, and when I think about it, it's fairly obvious but it just never occured to me. :roll:
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Lazloth

  • Posts: 1783
Cavilish
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2003, 12:51:57 PM »
Quote from: "John"
It makes sense for Cavilish to be secretive (if not as secretive as Tatlum), and the reason is merchants want to have the upper hand as much as possible.


(Using Allanak as an example) the difference between the two tongues, however,  is that Cavilish is [virtually] readily spoken in a cloud of noise any given moment.
quote="CRW"]i very nearly crapped my pants today very far from my house in someone else's vehicle, what a day[/quote]

Midland

  • Posts: 88
Cavilish
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2003, 04:17:10 PM »
Quote from: "Found in Language Land"
This would sort of disagree with what Tlaloc said, but *shrug*.  Clearly you and I disagree rather strongly on this point.


No, its pretty much a fact. Go to all the shops and look and see what language they are speak or any wandering merchant npc.

Quote from: "Found in Language Land"

Yes, I agree.  I was SO boggled by what I was hearing, especially your suggestion that Cavilish was in no way related to Sirihish.  I hope you'll recall I ended the OOC well before you did, and I apologize for going OOC in the first place, I wasn't even trying to argue there, mostly trying to explain why I didn't have adequate answers for your questions.  Your suggestion that I needed to read the documentation more closely led me to believe I ought to Ask the Staff.


Yes, I dropped to ooc to try and get you to think beyond what you were thinking. My apologies, if I had just stayed IC my pc would have said thank you, have a nice day but I thought perhaps you were new and didnt understand, so I was trying to help without actually coming out and saying "This is how it is."  :)

Quote from: "Found in Language Land"
I'm sorry if anything in my original post caused you to believe I was upset.  Again, I wasn't in any way, shape, or form asking about your house's hiring policies.  I had thought that to be both a bit too IC, and not worth pursuing.  Obviously, houses and clans can make up whatever rules they please.  I simply wanted to know for future reference whether my RP was totally off-base.  From what I'm seeing, I was to some degree.


Nah, I am sorry because it seemed that you were posting out of aggravation from what happened last night and I made the mistake of reading it after just waking up (after going to bed obscenely late and getting caught by you when I was heading to log out) and posting a reply when I should have put off replying till this afternoon. So I am sorry if I came across grumpy. Perhaps had it been more of a  OOC I am a bit confused, I thought this, than a OOC That isnt what the documentation says but I guess I will go with it, it might have been taken differently. (not a direct quote)

Quote from: "Found in Language Land"
Our conversation was extremely mundane, and didn't seem worthy of using a language you seemed so interested in keeping secret.  I don't recall having mentioned anything ICly or OOCly about how the code works (since I most definitely have no idea), this was, again, something you began arguing about OOCly in-game.  


Actually, I wasnt OOCly arguing about learning languages ingame. Yes, someone might pick up about ale if they overheard it being said and pointed at it. That would pick up a 'word' not a language and it's structure, which is what was pointed out IC, nothing OOC about that in the least. As for mundane conversation, sometimes when someone "claims" they can do something, someone will test them out for a bit to see how well they can do it.

As for babies picking up languages and it's how many people do, how many years does it take a child to master the language they hear and see? Not in a few weeks or a month of easedropping others talking at tables nearby but by their parents pointing things out and repeating the word, etc.

Quote from: "Found in Language Land"
I certainly wasn't hoping (in-game or out) for a critique of my RP, or my familiarity with the documentation.


I wasnt critquing your RP at all and as to your familiarity with documentation, thats what you had a question on so anyone answering it, would be going over your "familiarity" with it, if that is how you would wish to take it. If you would like to PM me, we can discuss this off the board to smooth out any irritated feathers on both of our parts. But I do apologize that I took your first post as a "run and whine because things didnt go how someone thought they should" type of post since we did end up going over things oocly in an attempt to clear up a technical misunderstanding at the time it happened.  I felt it would have been  more rude to just flat out ignore it when you dropped to OOC when I thought you perhaps didnt know.

moral : dont post when you are half asleep and run like heck from pcs when you are heading to log out because you are dead tired.
color=violet]If life was like a box of chocolates we would spend all day inside being poked and eaten.[/color]

John

  • Posts: 4123
Cavilish
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2003, 04:25:56 PM »
Quote from: "Midland"
No, its pretty much a fact. Go to all the shops and look and see what language they are speak or any wandering merchant npc.
I'm not too sure what language the merchants in Allanaks' bazaar speak, IIRC SOME merchants don't have a language (some definetly do though). Also, if you talk to the merchants, no matter what langugage you use they'll understand you. The default language being sirihish is cause most people know sirihish.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Midland

  • Posts: 88
Cavilish
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2003, 04:32:31 PM »
Hmmm, you know, John, you might be right but I could have sworn I have seen it show sirihish as the language they speak. I know in one city I was in, my d-elf couldnt understand any npc shop keeper.

:)
color=violet]If life was like a box of chocolates we would spend all day inside being poked and eaten.[/color]

John

  • Posts: 4123
Cavilish
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2003, 04:41:36 PM »
Quote from: "Midland"
I know in one city I was in, my d-elf couldnt understand any npc shop keeper.
As I said, some merchants are coded to speak only the one language, but I'm fairly certain others are coded to not speak a language. There's one way to find out :P Bar-tenders are DEFINITLY the same as well I think.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger
On Zalanthas most sweat would evaporate instantly and cool you easier, because there is no humidity. The extra air-flow of a kilt would also keep things dry.

Impska

  • Posts: 152
Cavilish
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2003, 09:31:38 AM »
First, Midland, just because merchants don't automatically change to cavilish when you speak cavilish to them, doesn't mean they don't know it, and doesn't mean you can't think outside the code a little and pretend they do. To use your own suggestion.

I am a little curious why someone felt it was ok to force someone to explain their skills icly, when it was obvious that person did not know how to do it. This happens all the time to newbies, who have no idea what to say, and yet have IC circumstances changed unfairly because oocly they don't know an answer to something their character would know icly. Yes, it's nice to give them a hint that they should have ic explanations, but it's not nice to badger them uneccesarily when they don't have one. If the person in question had known enough to say "Uncle Joe taught me", this wouldn't have been a question ic'ly. He/She didn't know what the answer would be, and pursuing the subject led to an apparantly unpleasant conflict with the ooc command. I'm also curious as to why you felt the need to crucify whatever answer he/she -did- give, when a mere hint of "Oh, that's an unusual way to learn Cavilish, most people lean it by [insert documentation stuff here]" probably would have produced the same results. Who are you to determine what is alright for his/her character to know? And how they've learned it.

Scratch that, I'm not so curious as to need a reply or justification, I'm just stating that it's always good to be helpful to people. Also, the above does not imply that I think/know the poster was a newbie. I'm not sure what I, myself, would have answered if pressed for an answer to something I wasn't prepared for. Sometimes things take you by surprise. This one likely would have, as many house servants are merchant class, and generally just include that cavilish is apart of their education - regardless of the "elitism" involved with the language, or ic appropriateness since they may not have ever been affiliated with merchants.

On another note entirely, I wanted to comment on the math question. I've always been comfortable with my characters having excellent math skills, in their head. Addition, substraction, basic multiplication and division (whole numbers and halves) are all things people have to get used to by necessity, without pencil and paper, on Zalanthas. They get a whole lot more practice than we do, every day in the marketplace. Otherwise, they get ripped off. People likely have some clue about fractions and percentages too, though I would reckon merchants are far better at more complicated math. They get more practice than the average person, afterall. It seems to work that way in real life, I know my mother is much better at doing math in her head than I am, because in school they forced her to practice, whereas a calculator was introduced to me much sooner.
quote="Lirs"]Sometimes I wonder why I do it.. when reading the GDB feels like death.[/quote]

Midland

  • Posts: 88
Cavilish
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2003, 02:55:57 PM »
Quote from: "Impska"
First, Midland, just because merchants don't automatically change to cavilish when you speak cavilish to them, doesn't mean they don't know it, and doesn't mean you can't think outside the code a little and pretend they do. To use your own suggestion..


I stopped reading after this point because you didnt read where no one was forced to show their skill as a way to 'feel' if they were a true 'merchant class'.  So I will just respond to this point, since this discussion is and was done a long time ago and smoothed between both players.

When someone 'brags' IC of being able to do something, it isnt OOC nor bad form as a potential employer to ask for a demonstration.
color=violet]If life was like a box of chocolates we would spend all day inside being poked and eaten.[/color]

Impska

  • Posts: 152
Cavilish
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2003, 05:54:05 PM »
Ah, Midland. That is my fault for being unclear. I was refering to the npc merchant discussion, in which you stated that they speak sirihish, not cavilish. You are right, they speak sirihish. But there is no reason for you to assume that they can't speak cavilish, or wouldn't speak it to you, if your char so desired.

I addressed the pc part afterwards.

My fault for being unclear, I hope the rest is moreso, if you so desire to read it. Though I doubt it would ever make a difference to you, so you may wish to save yourself the time.

 :roll:
quote="Lirs"]Sometimes I wonder why I do it.. when reading the GDB feels like death.[/quote]

Midland

  • Posts: 88
Cavilish
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2003, 09:18:09 PM »
Since it looked like your original message was going to just be a flame, as for how it started out, that is why I didnt bother to read further. Though I have now and you had some very good thoughts.

Now, as for merchant npcs just speaking sirihish to the common joe blows, like we had discussed weeks ago in this thread, it appeared 'most' that show a given language when speaking, spoke sirihish. I never stated, nor implied that they didnt change languages for private trades, speaking to other merchants, etc. But that since most of the population on Zalanthas wouldnt speak cavilish, most wouldnt get talked to in cavilish, or around in cavilish. (of course, that is just my opinion and would be how I play my pc's thoughts IC)

Yes, you were a bit unclear as to what you were responding to originally but that has been cleared up now.  :)  I think outside the code very well but sometimes I, also, can be unclear when posting and some will misunderstand what I was writing, or even take it completely wrong.  :)
color=violet]If life was like a box of chocolates we would spend all day inside being poked and eaten.[/color]