Leading plot lines.

[gfair]

I have heard much of this phrase, "leading plot lines", but have several questions.

What scale of plot is being talked about where the documents say that trust in players is knowing that they will push/lead plots?  How many people need to be involved for it to be considered a plot?  To what depth must a plot go for it to be considered worthy?  And is leading plots an absolute for IMMs to admire the roleplay, or do all players lead plots, even if they have no idea they are doing so, or is adding a distinguished character or a crucial component of good atmosphere enough?  Is a recognizeable character or unique addition to atmosphere in itself leading a plot?

Thanks.

[witchman]

I dunno.  

I feel that if more than one character is involved, then it's a plot.  I think the idea is to just draw people into the game.  If you hire one other pc and have them do tasks for you ("go north and find a blueberry bush and return here before breakfast tomorrow") that is a plot.  You do that over and over and suddenly you have contact with a lot of players and they come looking for you when they need cash or something to do.  

These little plots will eventually branch out as your own character grows in power and the next thing you know you'll be in a big plot helping push it along and perhaps all of it was arranged IC with no OOC communcation.

I bet if the IMMS see you motivating other players to do things, then their trust in your ability to drive plots will increase.

That's my guess, anyway.

[Tlaloc]

Yeah. At least, for me, when I see someone interacting with alot of other players, and motivating them to do things, or react in certain ways, then that is 'leading a plot'.

The plot can be little: "I need my ring back. Have you seen it?"

The plot can be big: "Hello. I'm trying to take over the world. If you spy for me, I'll give you an extra fifty sid a month..."

The plot can be intimate: "Dammit Sarge, I love you. Because of that, I have to kill you."

The plot could be open: "Hey, everybody! House Fale is having its third annual kitten eating contest! Come see who's the most evil Templar

this year!"
[/list]

Basically, to run a plotline all you need is the following:

1) A goal. - The goal is the whole reason you have a plot in the first place. Are you trying to fulfil your dwarves focus? Are you trying to get your aunts ring back? Are you trying to take over the world?

2) A motivation. - More importantly than the goal, is really the motive. Why are you trying to get your Aunts ring back? Why does your dwarf have her focus? Without a good motive, your goal ends up feeling flat, ambiguous, or even unattractive.

"I think the ring is pretty." is much less engaging as: "This ring has been passed down from Aunt to Neice in my family for fifteen generations. It carries with it the name Flouristaan, and has brought luck to my tribe since the Year of Ruks Anger, in the 76th age."

This doesn't mean that the first example is any less a valid motivation for a plotline. However, the second one is likely to raise the attention of alot more people than the first, and it certainly makes it seem more real, in the gameworld.

3) A means. - Its good to have a good, clear, concise way you plan on getting from the beginning to the end. "Concise" shouldn't be confused with "Uncomplicated", but knowing the steps you're ready to take at the beginning often helps keep your plans together. Step 1) Recruit Spies; Step 2) Recruit Thugs; Step 3) Begin raiding smaller Villages; Step 4) Pull the villages under your control; Step 5) Learn the ways of defiling; Step 6) Become a Sorcerer King, and take over the world.

In my opinion, this is much more entertaining for yourself and the rest of the mud than if you just skipped everything, and went directly to: "Step 5) Learn the ways of defiling and take over the world."

Now, plotlines don't have to involve others. In fact, its very possible to have a solo-plotline, which nobody else knows about, is aware of, or ever sees. Does this make this sort of plotline any less valid? No. On the other hand, though, it isn't as likely to get as noticed as the larger ones, which involve multiple people (though many, many a solo-plotline have been roleplayed out, and many have been very good).

However, even when I have a solo-plotline that I'm running, I always try to involve as many people as I can. Say I have a dwarf who's Focus is to forge the greatest helmet in the world...well, the forging of the helmet is something that I have to do on my own...and so is the learning the skills to forge said helmet. However, on the way, I can hire people to fetch me the most perfect materials for my helmet, and hire half-giants to smash helmets to test out my helmet designs, and hire assassins to kill off all the other helmet-makers who are competing with me.

Finnally, it should be noted that none of this nessecarially requires immortal intervention, nor does it have to revolve around L33t Magick devices or artifacts. I, personally, think the best and most satisfying plots are those that are mundane, and end up with little to no immortal intervention at all. After all, the game is here for the players.

Now as for the following:

And is leading plots an absolute for IMMs to admire the roleplay, or do all players lead plots, even if they have no idea they are doing so, or is adding a distinguished character or a crucial component of good atmosphere enough?

No, leading plots is not absolute for us to admire the roleplay. I would lean towards the 'All players lead plots, even if they have no idea they're doing so' side. As Shakespere said: "All the worlds a stage, and the people in it, only actors." On Armageddon, this wholeheartedly the case (since we are all, in effect, acting). Ergo, any time you log your character into the game, your are in effect, walking onto the stage. Now, are you a bit role, one of the extras in the back? Or are you a Leading Man, or Leading Lady the crux of what the play is about? Are you Hamlet, or are you Rosencrantz or Guildenstern?

Yes, adding a distinguished character or crucial component for atmosphere be enough. A large part, I'd say, is mostly watching to see if you're playing the character well...by this, we mean following documentation, following your background, etc. Does your elf test strangers? Or is he basically a tall human who likes to steal? Does your dwarf think nothing of his Focus?

Playing the stereotype is a great thing to do, as it reinforces what the documentation states, and ultimately provides the backdrop for everyone else. A supporting role is a very nessecary one. Afterall, if everyone plays the exception to the rule, then the exception becomes the rule, and the Rule the Exception (if you follow my meaning). That said, however, I've found that often, the stereotype character can be one of the biggest plot drivers of them all.

Play the outcast Half-elf, trying to work his way into one of his parents cultures. Play the Stupid half-giant who follows anyone who'll stop to talk to him long enough. Play the thieving elf, who's trying to gain noteriety amongst his tribe by pulling off the biggest and best scam.

I think one of the biggest issues is that many players like to sit around and wait for something to happen, and often get bored and start to wonder where these mysterious plotlines are. However, if you are proactive, and make things happen, then the plotlines will always follow you, because you're always starting them (even if they're small).
So, basically what Wichman said, though with alittle extra information thrown in for grins. Again: this is just one staff members point of view.

Does this make sense?

-Tlaloc

[John]

Wow! Thanks a lot for that Tlaloc. I was always under the impression that to start a plot you need to be a leader. I never realised follower, average joe characters could start plots just from their actions. I've made a TON of mistakes in the game (mainly because of OOC reasons, although sometimes it'd be an IC reason), that often could have had devastating effects, and people would get angry with me ICly. It got to the point where I was starting to get worried that their annoyance might become OOC, but maybe it wasn't, maybe they enjoyed my character making screw ups cause it threw a spanner into the works and made life interesting.

[Kronus]

I think one of the biggest issues is that many players like to sit around and wait for something to happen, and often get bored and start to wonder where these mysterious plotlines are.

I think this is probably the bane of the people who play the rank-and-file sorts in the Arm clans. I've been a member of a lot of them at different times, some insanely active, some deader than House Delann.
It's been my observation that, as mere cadets or runners or what have you, the low ranking people don't feel that they have the authority to get something going. It's not really the place for one Byn runner to tell his other Byn friends that he wants scrab shells for making armor, because they're not allowed to go out hunting scrab without a Sergeant along.
It's also been my observation that rank within a clan is inversely proportional to amount of time being spent in the game. In keeping with the Byn example, when I was playing a runner, the runners were all over the place all the time, the troopers showed up for a little while throughout the day, and the sergeants were around maybe once a day, and if they didn't feel like going outside or if the sands were bad, well, off they went again. And lieutenants? Hah. (Bear in mind this is a general example, as I've seen it to some degree in nearly every clan and there were many exceptions that I saw too. The above is simply the case often enough that I've noticed.)

At that same time, there were a few people who were also expending considerable effort to hire the Byn a lot while they went off leading their own plots. In fact, it's my completely unqualified and unresearched opinion that that was one of the more active periods for the Byn ever
However, it was still hard coming up with things to do on a day-to-day basis. Like I said at the top of this, it felt like all the rank-and-file people didn't feel it was their place to initiate any kind of activity. Sergeants were the ones who gave us stuff to do, because that's what sergeants do.

So I think a lot of the 'waiting around for things to happen' is exactly that, but it's motivated just as much by IC considerations as it is player inertia. It would be neat if someone (Imm or not-Imm alike) could offer up a few pointers of the sorts of plots that lower-ranked-and-vastly-more-active-than-their-superiors type characters can initiate, especially of the sort that can include the other people sitting around beside them.

[gfair]

Thanks a bunch for explaining plots in better detail, Tlaloc.  Also, the good breakdown of goal, motive and means is a valuable tool for breaking down our ideas and seeing how they can be accomplished through our characters IC.

[Meep]

Kronus, a couple things to ask yourself when you're in a rank-and-file situation are:

What kinds of things can I do to advance my own goals without breaking role? If your background states that you've wanted to work for Oash since you were a kid, but once you get to be their guard/servant, you always seem to get in trouble (out of boredom) then that isn't really staying in role. Same with the Byn. If your pc generally tends to follow the rules, think about things you can do to advance your own goals without breaking the rules of the clan. Does your pc want to get involved with a noble/merchant house with a cushy job? Hang out in a tavern and make friends with guards and aides... things like that can often drive more plots than getting bored, running out in the desert and getting killed.

What kinds of things can I do to advance the goals of my clan? This one just has you think about your pc, the authority they wield in the clan and what they can do to increase their own authority in the clan while taking the time to advance its goals. This can be as simple as being a runner or trooper in the Byn and being an "example" for the newbies, ICly and OOCly by doing chores with lots of good emotes (i.e. leading bread baking, or taking charge when cleaning the shitter) or as complicated as coming up with a new training exercise or an idea to set one night a week for a Byn talent show at the compound (if the goal is to make things more fun). For things like noble and merchant houses, you can do things like simply talking to people, maybe find out what they really want to buy, and let a superior know (for a merchant house) or spy for them if needed (maybe use part of that paycheck thats sitting around collecting for that house you want to buy to pay some people to spy -for- you, personally, just so you can report it to your superiors). These kinds of things get you noticed, and if they are appreciated (they usually are even if the ideas don't work out) then they will garner your pc more authority/trust in the future to be more autonamous.

Act like a leader and people will follow. This doesn't mean blindly throw out commands and overstep your true authority, but it does mean that taking charge of your IC responsibilities -will- grant you people who are more than willing to take a secondary role as your supporters, hey, even if they are newbies! In the Byn and there are newb runners? During weapons cleaning give them a lesson on how to properly polish their swords. Ask one or two to come with you to clean up the training halls on chore day. Make friends and allies. Make enemies and drive people's hatred toward them (but if staying alive is your goal, make sure that they are of less or equal power to you).

And finally...

If you find a leader, act like a follower. A lot of people don't realize what fun a supportive role to a leadery character is. It doesn't mean you have to support them through thick and thin if your pc's goals don't exactly mesh, but playing second-fiddle, even an inept second fiddle can be as fun as playing in the limelight. Unfortunately this seems to go against the grain of many players who have to be the best at everything! But remember, every good leader has a loyal right-hand that they can count on for support, whether it's fighting by their side or someone to vent their frustrations to (giving you another goal... remove or ease said frustration).

The most important thing is to figure out, before you start playing, how your character reacts to authority and how much of a leader they are. If they are a good yes-man, they would probably be better playing a supportive role. If they are a take-charge kind of character, then have them do just that. These are things that will help your long-term (hopefully) goals for your pc and help to drive plots in a rank-and-file situation.

Hope that was some help.

:shock:

[John]

This is just a post to say how much I agree with Meep and to offer some anecdotes.

or as complicated as coming up with a new training exercise or an idea to set one night a week for a Byn talent show at the compound

I just have to say this. I knew a Bynner  around the time when I had just first joined (about char 8 or so) and the Bynner would have loved a talent show. She made one particular song up called "The Sewer Whore" and I loved the song both ICly and OOCly. I made a bard with my next char partly cause of the Bynner and my bard heard her singing the tail end of the song, so I asked her to repeat it, and as she was I copied and pasted the lyrics into a txt file and I still have them. I haven't looked at them in ages but I still know most of the words and the tune. You were a _really_ well RP'd char, I had the chance to see you with other characters, and by pure fluke I found out some of the things that happened to you from my first char's time (not on purpose at ALL!! complete accident) and I saw how your char matured over the IC years, and I was very impressed. (fairly certain no-one'll know what I'm talking about except those who knew the char and song ).

If you find a leader, act like a follower.

I cannot emphasise this enough, because some people tend to create leader/perfect types. I have A BALL creating followers. I love making the char's that won't be written about in the history books and won't be remembered long after their death, but the sort of people that make leaders be able to do what they want to do. And it's so much fun. It's not for everyone, but I suggest if your looking for an original char, give it a try. ALSO House Borsail is an EXCELLENT clan. I've only had the chance to be in a couple of clans, but Borsail was the one I enjoyed myself in most. All of the people there are TERRIFIC RPers IMO.

even an idept second-in-hand can be fun

Yes, it can be. What's bad is when you try to make an adapt one but end up making an idept one I did this one time and I was getting in so much trouble, and it was SO much fun. I was just worried the PCs would be getting peeved off with me. :roll:

[WarriorPoet]

The few, minor, itty bitty plotlines I've been involved in were always great stuff.

Most of the time, I'll admit they would start out with a higher ranked or more powerful person. But I noticed that throwing in my little 2 sid, as my smart ass chars most likely would, often pushes things a little my way, a little the other way, whatever. I guess you could say that I play "rank and file" characters:


The bored, half-elven sentry says, in sirihish:
"Drox was tellin' me about this time they was all flat busted and starvin', so's they got togetha and nailed 'em a silt horra. He said those tha' survived, rolled in th' coin..."

Nodding, the other, bored half elven sentry says:
"Shit, we'd need twent' men fer tha' shit, at least..."

The thoughtful, fire-eyed merchant nod his head thoughtfully, eyes suddenly far away.




Simple things like that, a comment here, a hint there, just to get things started. You don't have to take charge, but you can damn sure plant little ideas in other peoples skulls. Those are my favorite characters, not secretive or devious in any way, just not assertive and not a leader...

But, hell, if you need it, work hard. Get money. Make friends and contacts, Start a raider tribe and pillage the world. You just gotta work it right, I guess.

But what would I know. I still have *newb* smared all over my face...

[Kronus]

Thanks, Meep. That was a really good post, and I hope someone has the wisdom to immortalize it as a file on the webpage.

I'm pleased to say that I -think- I already try to do those sorts of things, and I guess I might have not been as clear as I should have in my earlier post. Typically, I can find ways to keep myself entertained when it's a quiet week back at the compound, even in ways that don't include sneaking outside against orders and getting myself killed stupidly.
I guess what I was really trying to ask is how, as a rank-and-file clanmember, someone can go about working to get the other rank-and-file clanmembers involved in something plot-like.

In keeping with the Byn example, I can't even begin to count the number of times that the group would finish sparring, trudge in silence to the mess hall, quickly devour their stew, then trudge to whatever room the chore was being done in and idle until the nighttime horn blew. Even if a few of the other people were emoting and chatting and keeping active, there were always some who just did -nothing-.
And that's not really exclusive to the Byn. I've met that guy in every clan I've been in. And sure, everyone has bad days, and everyone gets pulled away unexpectedly or has to attend to something in another window, but there really do seem to be people on Arm who would prefer to have everything handed to them, and are content to sit there until it comes along.
So my question is, in a clan full of those kinds of people, or even just on a day when everyone in clan is acting like that, what can the lower ranked types do to inject a little activity into things? When attempts at conversation fall on deaf ears, when emotes go unreacted to, what are the options to bring people back to life and encourage them into some roleplay?

[creeper386]

This can be as simple as being a runner or trooper in the Byn and being an "example" for the newbies, ICly and OOCly by doing chores with lots of good emotes (i.e. leading bread baking, or taking charge when cleaning the shitter)

Acctually, some of my FUNNEST times in the Byn, beleive it or not, was cleaning the latrines. A couple months back had some blast in the Byn, and most of it was more sitting around bullshitting then you'd find in a tavern. Well, it was also doing the work, but it was alot of fun. I've found out when even one person really gets into emoting their chores in the Byn or probably anyone else, and also lets their character have a good/bad time, it draws everyone else along. Other wise everyone just sits around just throwing out a few emotes every so often but nothing too fun.

Me personally, think a big thing for alot of small plots, is just simple contraversy. Arguements, fights or just some friendly bickering even. I've also found out, I've said it before too, is letting your character make mistakes. Even simple mistakes can build up into a fun time, even into some bigger plots.

Hmm... I'm sure the crazy rash of agreeing with me has been over so I'll let you people get around to telling me how wrong I am.  :twisted: After saying that... I bet you fellows are going to have some trouble.

Creeper

[Anonymous]

One thing I think is a major prerequisite for leading plotlines is determination on the part of the PC.  This can come from self-assurance or from just plain pig-headedness.

But your PC has to not only be sufficiently long-lived, but be, for the most part, completely convinced that they have the answer to the issue at hand and the world will be a better place when all the rest come to see it their way.  Anyone who disagrees is an idiot at best.

Plotlines do not suffer weak-willed PCs.  Trust me, I'm speaking from experience here as I have trouble playing PCs with the strength of will I've seen other players exhibit.  

LoD's past PCs come to mind first and foremost.  Major props to him or her.

[gfair]

And finally...

If you find a leader, act like a follower. A lot of people don't realize what fun a supportive role to a leadery character is.

This I can attest to personally.  This happens in a lot of groups - there is a leader, and then two more people just behind in experience, and they both have merits.  What differentiates them?  The ones that speak up, do little things.  Designate duties, make reminders, volunteer for tasks, etc.

Personally, some of my chars have done that and it does lead to plots.... usually a lot of people getting pissed off the char is advising them on anything, but isn't of rank.  That's another issue I have that involves good versus bad RP, IMO, but needless to say, Meep's point works extremely well.

[crymerci]

One tip: Don't assume that your harmless chit-chat isn't a plot. People make friends, people make enemies. How can you gain allies or rivals if not through simple everyday chatter? Occasionally someone is really nice to you, but they're just using you for whatever reason. Sometimes a person will snub you, but they're just following orders and secretly respect and admire you.

Also: this is a pet peeve of mine. Don't plot out a scene involving someone else and decide how it's going to go, step-by-step. If someone emotes or speaks something different from what you were expecting, roll with it. You may have the most incredible plan to assassinate Tek, but you've got to expect things to go wrong at every turn.

And that leads me to: Yes, faults can be fun, and can move along plots. I recall a certain half-giant soldier who was always blurting things out when a human would have had more discretion. Don't be afraid to ride your kank the wrong direction, or use the Way knowing you'll pass out, or have such indiscretion in your affairs that your significant other catches you cheating. And make sure to include faults that people can take advantage of, not just hidden ones that never leave you vulnerable.

[Tlaloc]

So I think a lot of the 'waiting around for things to happen' is exactly that, but it's motivated just as much by IC considerations as it is player inertia. It would be neat if someone (Imm or not-Imm alike) could offer up a few pointers of the sorts of plots that lower-ranked-and-vastly-more-active-than-their-superiors type characters can initiate, especially of the sort that can include the other people sitting around beside them.

Well...alot of things. Typically, most characters will have some sort of personal goals...be they to become the greatest warrior, or best assassin in the world, or make a million sid, or try to forge a perfect helmet. Just because your character is new, doesn't mean you can't jump into the pool with both feet from the start.

This sort of thing is really where a well thought out and defined background comes in handy...or if it wasn't as defined and thought out to begin with, where it helps to begin refining and defining it. For example: lets say you have a stock Buff Warrior template, who's family was killed by gith. You're a new character, so you're low on the totem-pole as far as things go. No Leader-types are around (at least, none of your leaders), so things are getting quiet and dull.

Now, take that Buff Warrior, and give him (or her) a chemical dependency. Well...now you've just added a bit of flavor to an otherwise two-dimensional character. Generic Buff Warriors have no motivation, other than to wait to spar (and that can have interesting ideas behind it, too)...but a Buff Warrior with an addiction to Thodeliv....well, he's got motivation out the Wazoo.

Now your Buff Warrior has to:

1) Find a drug dealer.
2) Smuggle the spice into and around the City (assuming the city proscribes Spice-use)
3) Somehow learn to afford said Drug (possibly incurring the wrath of Drug Dealers, Loan Sharks, or his Girlfriend after he pawns all her stuff).
4) Hide his Drug use from both his Supperiors, and the Law (possibly via bribes, and the like).
5) Somehow work to continue his lifestyle as a Buff Warrior, with a Thodeliv Monkey on his back.
6) Deal with possible emotional baggage that comes when he is strung out, in withdrawl, or whatever.
7) Possibly learn to survive combat, in the desert, while blasted out of his mind.
8 At the same time, maintain all his professional business ties.

Simply adding one little quirk adds ALOT of interesting things that could potentially happen.

Alot of ideas simply happen by taking over a "leadership" position, when there are none around. Its also a good way to position yourself for one of those leadership roles down the future. As someone said, this might mean organizing the other Runners/Basic Grunts; organizing the Clans Supply Room, making contacts with people who might be useful to you and your character in the future, maybe paying people off and buying spies. Theres alot of small things that could be done, you just need to find the motives:

For example, lets say you're a Byn Runner. What if you organized a 'Runners Only' Tournament to be held towards the end of your graduating year, to figure out who the Best of the Worst is?

What if your Borsaili Slaver started taking bets on who could bag the biggest scrab?

What if you, for some strange reason, liked to hear tales from around the known world, and paid everyone you met 50 sid to hear a new story from them, regardless of what it was?

In any case, the background and overal concept of your character is highly important. Are you a gambler? Are you a coniving elf? Are you a focused dwarf, or an enigmatic elementalist? Typically I take the race and class combination, and decide quirks based around them and form them into an overal concept that will drive the character. For example, if I picked a Human Warrior, I'd start thinking about what makes this Human Warrior so special. Maybe, in this case, this character has been brainwashed by the forces of Tektolnes, and he's now a devout, fanatical follower of the Jade Cross. Figuring 'Bard' would be a good secondary class for a preacher, I poke go.

Now I've transformed this potentially passive Human Warrior into something much more exciting. He has motivation: convert the Heathens to worship Tektolnes, and slay all those who don't convert. You can start doing this from the moment you enter into the game...it doesn't even really matter where you start (though your starting location will have drastic effects on weather or not you survive very long). The first things you can do are start preaching, and trying to get a following going.

"Its so easy!", you say...but Lo...it becomes even more exciting (the plot thickens, so to speak). What if your character knew he'd been brainwashed, and secretly hated Tektolnes and his cronies for doing such a thing to you. Now you have taken that character who was once just a Zalanthan Bible Banger, and turned him into an embittered, broken person, who might be subconsciously trying to start a revolt in Allanak. Now you'd start the same way: begin preaching and try to get a following going, but you now have more legs: Now you can slowly begin to try to break the conditioning you're under.

A final way is simply to make something up, and do it. I would email the Mud and/or your Clan Imm with your plans ahead if time (so they know whats going on, and  maybe might double-check it for consitency with the larger game-plan). I know I'm very open to PC's making up plots or quests to run in/with/around my clan. In fact, the Byn is largely almost completely player Driven.

Theres some more thoughts...do those help for ideas on plot-generation?

-Tlaloc

[deviant storm]

Tlaloc wrote:

Or are you a Leading Man, or Leading Lady the crux of what the play is about? Are you Hamlet, or are you Rosencrantz or Guildenstern?

Heh, teach me not to read the GDB first thing in the morning. You meant the ones from Hamlet. But for some reason it made me think of Gilbert and Sullivan. So I'm picturing:

In a rapid spurt of song, the stern-faced, exact man sings in sirihish, "I am the very model of a proper naki militiaman. I have the information of Templar, noble and criminal...."

Ok, so I'm being silly. But Tlaloc is right. Half the fun is character development, which leads to the plots that often involve others. I think it would be fun for someone to make a Gilbert and Sullivan type character on arm.


Deviant Storm

Who's hardly ever sick at sea.

[gfair]

This notion of playing an addict brings to mind the challenges associated with it - how do you stay fiscally afloat?  I can think of some ideas - become a beggar, sell your belongings, etc.  But should you have to pick a thief class/sub just to have the coded skills to be able to steal items?  Can you play a full-time addict without being a part of any group (because addicts would likely be kicked out, due to missing their professional obligations)?

Playing these seedy addict/habit types faces challenges - can you play one without having a crafting or thieving class/sub?  Any thoughts, folks?

[Angela Christine]

This notion of playing an addict brings to mind the challenges associated with it - how do you stay fiscally afloat?  I can think of some ideas - become a beggar, sell your belongings, etc.  But should you have to pick a thief class/sub just to have the coded skills to be able to steal items?  Can you play a full-time addict without being a part of any group (because addicts would likely be kicked out, due to missing their professional obligations)?

Playing these seedy addict/habit types faces challenges - can you play one without having a crafting or thieving class/sub?  Any thoughts, folks?

You could always try to sift out your own spice.  That may mean sneaking out of town, but you don't need a thieving class to do that.  The trouble with sifting is the weather, and that you don't necessarily find any of your favorite kind of spice.  Oh, and you might get eaten.

Most drug addicts don't start out as criminals, so there is no reason to start with a "criminal" guild.  Once you get deep into the habit you may turn to criminal activities to finance your habit, but this doesn't necessarily mean the "steal" skill.  You could skim money from your organization, steal from your  clan storeroom and then stage it to look like a regular burglary (leading your clannies to curse those twink burglars).  You could steal from or kill your friends when they are sleeping, you'll feel bad about it later, but that monkey on your back needs to be fed NOW.  Sell your baby to slavers, that's always a good one, although the baby's other parent may want an explanation: I recomend: "she was kidnapped by elves, gypsies, magickers, etc."  If you hang with a guild or around any important people, chances are there are other people (from templars to raiders to criminals) who will pay you to spy for them.  You will do anything to get that next hit, which makes you prey to the type of people that can supply you with that hit.

The underhanded ways of making money are endless, and very few of them rely on any skills at all.

AC

[John]

This is just a "these are my thoughts on what people have said" post, doesn't really offer anything new to the convo.

Most drug addicts don't start out as criminals, so there is no reason to start with a "criminal" guild.

That's very true. However on a regularish basis with my past few char's, I'll pick a guild and/or subguild where they'll be given starting skills that they don't neccessarily have. I'll plan out a VERY rough timeline for certain events to happen to my char that would cause these skills to become useful and then I can RP learning them with either VNPCs/PCs. So if you wanted to become a thief, you could start out with the thief guild, and just not use a lot of those skills, use your subguild as your main source of income, or get a job that doesn't require many coded skills at all. Just thought I'd suggest that.

Sell your baby to slavers, that's always a good one, although the baby's other parent may want an explanation

Sure that's a possibility, but the other parent doesn't neccessarily have to care about the child. Many fathers don't give a rats toss about their children. I was going to say "It would be easier for females to do this then males" until I realised I was letting an OOC bias affect my ideas for the game again. There is absolutely NO reason why females must be the predominant sex that cares about children. It could be 50-50 or males could be the predominant one.

Also, prostitutes in olden times (and even among modern times) would often be tricked into taking drugs by drug-dealers selling them for a cheap price, and then when they're hooked completely withdrawing any source of the drug from them. By doing this they were/are able to get the person to do whatever they want because they crave the drug, so they then became prostitutes. You could create a prim and proper PC, she then gets into a position of high influence, can't handle the stress, starts taking drugs to relieve the pressure, the addiction get's so bad she can't afford it anymore, so she starts to prostitute herself, and she could loathe herself for doing it, but not be able to stop. No reasons why males can't do the exact same thing either.

Just some thoughts I had.

[gfair]

You could skim money from your organization, steal from your  clan storeroom and then stage it to look like a regular burglary (leading your clannies to curse those twink burglars).  You could steal from or kill your friends when they are sleeping, you'll feel bad about it later, but that monkey on your back needs to be fed NOW.  Sell your baby to slavers

These are all potential ideas, but how realistic are they in Arm?  How easy is it to get away with stealing from the House, selling children?  There is the IC world, and then there is the thin line between forgetting that what you are doing is using OOC knowledge IC.  You do hunt in the storage room, see tracks to a Dwarf, you have only one dwarf you've seen round - boom.  Right away you can point the finger at the thief.  Stealing in a House can be incredibly hard unless you do it at odd hours, which is itself highly unrealistic.  Killing in house, as well, is also almost impossible to do - even in the Byn, I can recall times where the suspects were narrowed down to two or one persons with almost no knowledge whatsoever.

All it takes is one person to get some evidence on such crimes, either attained realistically or not, and to then make the accusation.  That's why it is so hard - you don't get a house of 10 PCs with no strict RP-based admission procedure, and not run the risk of some character with Hunt or just pure observation being able to point you out.

And selling babies - most PCs I've seen with babies never let them out of their sight.  How on earth are you going to get one, find a group to sell it to, and not have some visible evidence?  First, the parent knows who they have given it to - if the baby disappears, they come to you and point the finger.  Second, the person you sell the baby to may sell you out, one way or another.


So your ideas are all clearly workable ideas, but unless you are certain of the integrity of the players, not the characters but the players, then you run great risk of your character dying after the first few incidents, and having any hope at seeing a plot to maturity run short.

[gfair]

I was going to say "It would be easier for females to do this then males" until I realised I was letting an OOC bias affect my ideas for the game again. There is absolutely NO reason why females must be the predominant sex that cares about children. It could be 50-50 or males could be the predominant one.

Well... in real life I am far from being biased towards the roles of the sexes, but Arm is not the world in which you should be using any OOC beliefs IC.

Firstly, I think it is equally difficult for any char, of any gender or race, to steal and sell a child.  The issues have nothing to do with gender, they have to do with being able to trust the people you deal with.

And yet, while those statements bear an implicit sentiment of equality for both sexes and all races, Zalanthas is not a gender-equal place.  At least, not if we conclude that Zalanthas, being a backward society, would share all the inequalities of our own backwards societies.

That is to say, racism and sexism abound in Arm, IMHO.  Now, because Arm is fiction, the IMMs may have a different viewpoint, choosing to declare one of the universal values of all characters to be giving both men and women equal consideration and capability, and there is no systematic sexism in any of the societal constructs.  I'm not sure about that - again, Tlaloc's opinion and insight into this would be most valuable.  My own opinion is that sexism and all sorts of bias is rampant - after all, if people from North/South hate each other and are willing to attack or extort, and if there is all sorts of racism, then why is sexism somehow omitted?

[Kronus]

then why is sexism somehow omitted?

To be blunt, sexism was omitted to allow female characters the opportunity to still be playable and capable of going just as far in society and in ability as males. Essentially, the game world was tweaked in a somewhat unrealistic way in order to make it more fun for everyone and not penalize people who want to play certain kinds of characters (ie, female ones ).

That's my take.

[John]

I was going to say "It would be easier for females to do this then males" until I realised I was letting an OOC bias affect my ideas for the game again.

Well... in real life I am far from being biased towards the roles of the sexes

I'm not saying you thought I meant this gfair, but I'm going to clarify in case anyone misunderstood me (your post made me realise how out of context what I said can be taken).

I thought AC meant women would be having children and then selling them. Or selling their own children. Which is why I was going to say "it'd be easier for females then males" cause males generally do have the stereotype of not caring about their own kids (not saying all males do or that it's even the norm, just saying it's the stereotype, especially among young males).

[Delirium]

Keep in mind, the Houses aren't purely staffed by PCs. Those tracks could belong to a number of VNPC's as well. They could also be the tracks of someone that was depositing supplies or armor.. just because, OOCly, those tracks could have only been one PC, doesn't mean that ICly, the evidence is solid.

[crymerci]

then why is sexism somehow omitted?

To be blunt, sexism was omitted to allow female characters the opportunity to still be playable and capable of going just as far in society and in ability as males. Essentially, the game world was tweaked in a somewhat unrealistic way in order to make it more fun for everyone and not penalize people who want to play certain kinds of characters (ie, female ones ).

That's my take.

Well, here's my take.

In a society where food, shelter, and water are prevalent enough, women of childbearing age can choose to be excused from other duties in order to see to the bearing and raising of children. They rely on men, and women without small children, within their family/community to do their share of providing for the group. Now, with a more proscribed role, i.e. less hunting or hard labor, these women with children become softer and weaker.

Now, if the family/community/village is even more prosperous, then women can all be excused from hard labor, unless they really want to do it... because men like sex and they get kinda stupid around a sexy, curvy female, and they're easily persuaded to do just about anything if they want to keep getting some. So it's really the stupidity of men, and not the weakness of women, which has led to the societal differentiation between the sexes that exists in out culture.

The fun part about Zalanthas is, you can both be butch and control weak men with your beauty.