Author Topic: Fnord's New Player Guide Idea  (Read 7030 times)

Anonymous

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2006, 10:43:50 PM »
How about a web page with a set of short player logs? Like a log of someone seeing what a merchant has to offer, looking over an item or two, haggling and finally buying an item.

Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2006, 10:51:35 PM »
Fnord wrote:
Quote
You'll notice in the OP I suggested there should be an easy, one-word command to exit it. That way people that are brand new to Mudding or brand new to Arm that feel they need some help can use it, and more advanced players can jump in and play as they're accustomed to.

Yes, I saw that in the original post, but the thing is, I really don't like tutorials. If a tutorial was in place when I first joined however many years ago, I probably would've turned around and left, even if I could've skipped it. I wouldn't want a tutorial in place even if I could skip it- its very existence is what irks me.
But, then again, that's me. I'm probably crazy or OCD or something.
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spawnloser

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2006, 01:01:01 AM »
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
What's the minimal amount of information that an intelligent newbie needs to play Armageddon?


A newbie should have access to the knowledge that every single 20-year-old citizen of Allanak/Tuluk would have.
You see, this is where we disagree.  I DON'T think every newbie should have access to this information.  Not every citizen of Tuluk/Nak will know where to buy everything.  Water?  A simple, "Go where someone has lots of water and type 'fill [watercontainer]' should solve your problem," is good enough.  Forcing a newbie to explore and find his/her way around is BETTER for the newbie, in my opinion, than just spoonfeeding them.  If you spoonfeed them, they don't learn, just memorize.
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amoeba

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2006, 01:58:03 AM »
Quote from: "spawnloser"
Quote from: "Cale_Knight"
Quote from: "Marauder Moe"
What's the minimal amount of information that an intelligent newbie needs to play Armageddon?


A newbie should have access to the knowledge that every single 20-year-old citizen of Allanak/Tuluk would have.
You see, this is where we disagree.  I DON'T think every newbie should have access to this information.  Not every citizen of Tuluk/Nak will know where to buy everything.  Water?  A simple, "Go where someone has lots of water and type 'fill [watercontainer]' should solve your problem," is good enough.  Forcing a newbie to explore and find his/her way around is BETTER for the newbie, in my opinion, than just spoonfeeding them.  If you spoonfeed them, they don't learn, just memorize.


-Every- Newbie should know where the water is, Why? Because they would, pure and simple. The rest is a subjective, and fairly erroneous take on the learning process.  There are gobs of things to learn in the game.  Straightforward stuff, like where food and water are, stuff they -should- already, know don't need to be part of the process.  People will explore naturally, and if not, quite frankly, so what? It is their choice.   All I have to say is I am glad many of you are not my thrid graders teacher.
quote="Morgenes"]
Quote from: "The Philosopher Jagger"
You can't always get what you want.
[/quote]

spawnloser

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2006, 03:26:59 AM »
See, the thing is, this game doesn't cater to third graders.  See, it's a bit more mature than that.

See, I truly do believe that if someone can't take the time to explore the city they are in and find where water can be found (the syntax, I will agree could be given out to newbies) as well as food (the syntax to purchase, again, I think can be given out), they don't have the patience to properly roleplay the character they have applied.

Call me elitist, but I don't think it is.  I think that people have to have some ability to think as well as learn on their own to absorb that which is ArmageddonMUD.
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bloodfromstone

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2006, 04:02:43 AM »
I disagree. While patience is required for the game, it was about the most frustrating thing in the world for me when I was a newbie to feel like I'd broken character despite myself. Not having access to the information that my character would know gave me the options of roleplaying a stupid/sheltered/mentally retarded character, forcing myself and others to bumble through awkward scenes that don't make any sense in the context of the world, or saying "I'm not from around here.", which is about the worst thing you can ever say in Allanak. Of course, it's easy enough to say you're from a small village around Allanak, but newbies don't know about those, either.

I can understand how others would want to just dive in and find things out, but I, personally, ran into a number of instances in my early days where something I said or did was completely incorrect, despite having read through the docs and having tried my best to stay IC. I don't see any necessity for situations like this. I don't think giving someone the tools they need to roleplay a character is spoonfeeding, but maybe I'm wrong.
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amoeba

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2006, 04:27:14 AM »
Quote from: "spawnloser"
See, the thing is, this game doesn't cater to third graders.  See, it's a bit more mature than that.
A cute retort, but has no bearing on the arguement I was making.

Quote from: "spawnloser"
See, I truly do believe that if someone can't take the time to explore the city they are in and find where water can be found (the syntax, I will agree could be given out to newbies) as well as food (the syntax to purchase, again, I think can be given out), they don't have the patience to properly roleplay the character they have applied.

See this is where you let -your- way of thinking become the only way of approaching a given situation. It is short sighted and does not allow for the fact that the way people approach problems have a considerable amount of variblity.  Also your premise translates into one of where people that don't suceed with your approach are incapable of suceeding in the game. Quite frankly in practice that is entirely untrue.  

This line of thinking is on par with thowing kids into the deep end of the pool, and telling them they need to swim to the side. Don't dismiss this, sadly I've seen people do this.  In practice it is a stupid, dangerous thing to do.

People in game can and do succeed without being thrown into the deep end to sink or swim. Quite frankly my wife is one of those.  She has a lousy directional sense. Had your advice been applied, she would never be playing this game. As it stands now she is a very active and productive member of the community.

Quote from: "spawnloser"
Call me elitist, but I don't think it is.  I think that people have to have some ability to think as well as learn on their own to absorb that which is ArmageddonMUD.

I don't think I will ever understand statements like this. It implies a certain superiority. Once again in practice, different people have differing skillsets. There may be a person who is wonderful in social situations and creates a great deal of interactions with those around them, yet couldn't find their own ass with both hands.  Yet others who live to explore, find things easily, catch onto syntax like a breeze, but are as dull as dishwater in conversations.

The problem with cookie cutter thinking is that it limits the type of players that are drawn to the game, and in turn limits possiblities.  Is this truely what we want? To discourage and turn away potential players like my wife?  I just wish people would open up their minds to the idea that not everyone thinks the same way they do.  Allow there to be mechanisms for each of these players, and don't presume that because they don't think like you, that they are somehow inferior, or can not contribute to the game in some meaningful way.

Edit typos, it's late and I should be sleeping instead of posting.
quote="Morgenes"]
Quote from: "The Philosopher Jagger"
You can't always get what you want.
[/quote]

spawnloser

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2006, 05:14:14 AM »
You know what, amoeba?  I really don't think you understand where I'm coming from.  Your wife could learn without being spoonfed.  If she's a productive member of the community, she's either learned things on her own or broken LOTS of rules about IC-OOC information transfer.  It is that simple.

Give assistance, advice and hints...but don't give the answer.  Giving the answer to 'the person trying to learn' teaches this person that the answers are going to be handed to them instead of teaching the person how to seek the answers themselves.  A teacher does NOT give the answer first, but guides the students to the answer.  This is what helpers should be doing.  This is how education SHOULD work, both in real life applications and when applied to the MUD.

Editted to add: By the way, don't tell me that I'm saying my way is the only way, especially when you're doing the exact same thing.
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Larrath

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2006, 05:47:57 AM »
Quote from: "spawnloser"
Give assistance, advice and hints...but don't give the answer.  Giving the answer to 'the person trying to learn' teaches this person that the answers are going to be handed to them instead of teaching the person how to seek the answers themselves.  A teacher does NOT give the answer first, but guides the students to the answer.  This is what helpers should be doing.  This is how education SHOULD work, both in real life applications and when applied to the MUD.

Spoonfeeding, spoonfeeding, spoonfeeding spoonfeeding!
Nonsense!

No matter how much help, answers and advice I have given a new player, I have never, not once, seen a player become accustomed to being spoonfed.  I have never seen a player that became dependant on me in order to try to learn the game.  Invariably, new players try to learn the game by themselves and use Helpers (or at least my help) as a crutch.
Why?  Probably because they feel awkward asking for help.  Fact is that this is the case.

I will have been a Helper for two years two weeks from now, and have helped a very nice handful of new players.

If someone truly believes that telling a new player where they can buy water or *gasp* where they can buy dirty water for cheaper would promote bad playing habits in that player, they're in sore need of a reality check.
I've explained the general outline of Allanak, made a few hints towards genuine IC information, given people exact directions to the Barrel from the Gaj, and even wrote backgrounds and helped with main descriptions.
This has never caused a player to be lazy as far as I'm able to tell, and it certainly never caused them to depend on me in excess.

Armageddon isn't for everyone, however it is NOT strictly for players that are willing to bang their heads into a wall for a few good months until they get something similar to an understanding of the game.  Armageddon has a steep learning curve, but that curve shouldn't extend beyond two to three months at the very most.
In order to keep the learning curve relatively short, sometimes new players need to be given answers.

I'm leaving this thread now before I see another elitist post.  I might go on a killing spree.
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The7DeadlyVenomz

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2006, 07:55:27 AM »
I'm with Larrath 199%, with the exception of "players becoming lazy" part. But the cure for that was simply a "I can't tell you that, it's IC."

I have no problem turning off one player to the game because he didn't have the balls to learn the real secrets of the game by himself, when I've helped keep twenty or more players here by letting them know things like Tavern Locations, Water Sources, what a commoner would prolly do about food, what a background should look like, explaining why they didn't get accepted for the ninth time, etc.

I want players. Newbies need real help if they ask for it, and if they don't ask for it, then they don't need it. It's really that simple.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Cale_Knight

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2006, 09:09:09 AM »
Quote from: "spawnloser"
A teacher does NOT give the answer first, but guides the students to the answer.


ArmageddonMUD is a game, not the LSAT.
Brevity is the soul of wit." -Shakespeare

"Omit needless words." -Strunk and White.

"Simplify, simplify." Thoreau

Fnord

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2006, 10:20:03 AM »
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"
I want players. Newbies need real help if they ask for it, and if they don't ask for it, then they don't need it. It's really that simple.


That's really it. I think it was Hot Dancer that said in a tangent thread about elitism that if you've learned to play Arm, you're elite. Honestly, I think that's true. I'd say the majority of our regular players are exceptional in one way or another having made it this far. But, I know from personal experience there are some very creative people that are natural RP'ers out there that would just get too frustrated without a helper to get over the hump.

The n00b tutorial is basically an automated helper. Probably not as good as our excellent human (uh, at least I think they are...) helpers, but perhaps used in combination could retain more players. That's the essence of this thread: How do we retain more players.

See how many people show up for the HRPT tonight... usually 100+. Imagine if we had a base like that each night at peak. So many fucking boots to steal!

Love, Fnord.
Amor Fati

Gimfalisette

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Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2006, 01:25:51 PM »
I also have a spouse that I would like to have play ARM with me. But honestly, with the in-game help as poor as it is, I really don't see him picking it up on his own. It's going to take a -lot- of work on my part to even get him in the game checking it out, because it's so non-intuitive and puts newbies immediately in the situation of looking stupid IC.

So yes, in order to get him in the game, I will have to directly tell him where to get water, how to get water, where and how to get food, where and how to find some people to clan with, etc. But if he tries the game (and I'm still working on convincing him even to -try-), then the game world will benefit because he is a good roleplayer, likes to play fun/interesting characters, has pretty good spelling/grammar, and is an easy person to play with.

I just know there are lots more people with potential out there like him, who won't even bother to try ARM because it's far too hard right out of the gate.
I'm gonna go all Gimfalisette on you guys and lay down some numbers.

Winterless

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Re: Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2008, 10:49:26 PM »
Found this thread and thought it was a good idea, what do you guys still think?

Clearsighted

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Re: Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2008, 12:03:53 AM »
I always thought that the in-game newbie tutorial was the T'zai Byn.

 :-\

In all seriousness though, I know that if I had probably taken any other course but fall in with the Byn, I would have never made it when I was a newbie. I still love everything about it too. I'm also one of those introverted do it yourselfers, and the Byn provided that hands on experience in a controlled environment that I needed. I even learned to solo emote cleaning latrines.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 12:06:14 AM by Clearsighted »

helix

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Re: Fnord's New Player Guide Idea
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2008, 01:56:34 AM »
I like the idea. I've played another RPI (ShadowSiege) that features an in-game tutorial. Its almost as complicated as Arm, in some parts, the the tutorial was half "What you know" from the docs and half "These are your commands". In that respect, it REALLY helped me develop a character and stay IC as I knew:

  • The basic events of the past few years.
  • Most of the basic commands, how to access the helpfiles, and which helpfiles were REALLY necessary.
  • Some basic social structure (for instance, learned that there is a noble class and that you are expected to bow to them, etc) and game-background.
It took me about an hour to go through the tutorial, meanwhile I could ask questions of the imms, if something came up that I didn't understand, or I had a question. However, afterwards I didn't have to break character at ALL, not even to ask for directions (which I consider asking for directions, if you've lived in the same city for 20 years and never been outside the gates, you probably know where to get a bite to eat).

Let's face it, Arm's helpfiles, while extensive, are poorly organized and in some cases, outdated. I honestly don't see how an in-game tutorial detracts from the game experience, only how it increases the chance that people will have a good time (I still play, and enjoy, ShadowSiege) and not feel like an idiot. Personally, it takes very little to turn me off on a game (it was so little as the character creation process of one MUD) and a big part of why I kept going with Arm is that I had someone I could ask a few questions (like: where is the water seller in Allanak, because I also was afraid to go into the temple, at first) of and not feel dumb. Learning that information on my own in SS enabled me to begin good RP from the moment I stepped into the gameworld.