Author Topic: RE: Tuluk Caste System  (Read 11434 times)

Tamarin

  • Posts: 3337
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2006, 09:36:24 PM »
*applauds Angela Christine*
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

marko

  • Posts: 1307
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2006, 12:02:26 PM »
I'm going to chime in here briefly with reiterating that all bards are not created equal nor are all merchants.

Bards are split into four ranks:

Apprentice
Seeker
Bard
Master

Merchants are split into four ranks:

Junior Merchant
Ranked Merchant
Upper Merchant
Head of House

At an individual level one needs to compare rank as based on a title (eg, job).  In other words, an apprentice bard needs to be compared to a junior merchant.

If we look at a junior merchant and an apprentice bard to try and figure out who gets served first at a party we start with the basics.

To begin with they are level.  Junior Merchant and Apprentice Bard hold the same social rank.  But, this Junior Merchant is a blooded member of one of the Great Houses - therefore the receive a social status boost.

What does this mean?  This means the Junior Merchant is served first.

The apprentice bard is still an apprentice bard.

Alright, I noticed a lot of talk about bard bards (I can only assume that is what people are talking about when they compare a "bard" to a blooded merchant family member) so let's take a look.

A bard bard has spent years cultivating social status and renown.  They've passed from Apprentice through Seeker and have reached Bard bard.  For most bards this is the pinnacle of their career and they simply won't go any higher.

What this means is that an individual bard bard can vary greatly in their personal power and scope.  What it also means is that because of the years of being in the public eye, typically performing for a great number of nobles, templars and everyone else, and otherwise developing their social network they tend to have a significant amount of political clout.

That clout is comparable to an upper merchant.  A merchant who has spent years establishing themselves in their House and have worked up through the ranks.  These merchants are quite powerful and hold a lot of clout.  

Again, we're leaving blood out of this base understanding because blood is a modifier _after_ figuring out the base rankings.

Blood gives a boost to social standing.  So, let's compare a bard bard with a ranked blooded merchant.  This is a blood family member from a merchant house who has been promoted above their junior rank.

Because the blood gives the ranked merchant a boost to their social standing they are roughly comparable to a bard bard.  Let us further suggest that this ranked merchant has managed to become fast friends with a few templars - clearly friends and is favored.  So that gives them a little more boost.  This places the ranked blooded merchant slightly above a bard bard with no modifiers.

In other words, does blood count when dealing with merchants in Tuluk - absolutely.  But does that make them into mini-nobles?  No way.  They are still common Caste.  Any blooded merchant who thinks of themselves as a mini-noble will probably find themselves coming to a 'bad end.'

What I've left out here is how patronage would affect the bard bard in question.  Since that will complicate matters even more.

Tuluk is a complex and diverse culture.  The social system allows for people to have comparitive social standings even when their power is derived from different sources.

In terms of blooded Family Merchants - yes they get a good boost because of their family blood but that does not make them mini-nobles.  A junior merchant is still a junior merchant - family or not.  That means they are fresh-faced and unproven.  The blood still gives them some social boost but it is up to the merchant to make their own power.  

Wealth is fine and dandy but if it isn't used to expand one's influence (via gifts for example) then it means absolutely nothing in social circles.  A blooded ranked merchant can obtain a social standing above a bard bard by making use of their wealth and positioning their House's backing but only if they work at it.  

In Tuluk social standing doesn't come by default other than at the base levels provided by social position within society (as based upon title, ie, junior merchant, seeker bard, master artisan) and Caste.  

A ranked merchant from one House can be far higher than a ranked merchant from another House based entirely upon personal merit.  If a merchant starts out as a junior merchant type position then expect to be treated as a junior merchant.  If they were meant to be higher with greater authority then they should have started out as a ranked merchant.  But, typically, most merchants start out at the bottom rung of their House and work their way upwards - which is how it should be in my view.  

The same holds true for bards of the Circle.  They start out at the bottom and work their way up based on personal performance.

Bebop

  • Posts: 3489
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2006, 03:53:24 PM »
Quote from: "marko"
I'm going to chime in here briefly with reiterating that all bards are not created equal nor are all merchants.

Bards are split into four ranks:

Apprentice
Seeker
Bard
Master

Merchants are split into four ranks:

Junior Merchant
Ranked Merchant
Upper Merchant
Head of House


Actually that isn't true, from my experience Merchants are divided into Common Merchant, which a non-family crafter might be able to achieve or hired on as.  A Junior Merchant which is a well to do family member in some Houses and then a Senior Merchant which takes years and years to ever become one. In your ranking a Junior Merchant is first tier, which simply isn't true in some cases.  I know this for sure for at least one House. You are most likely to get transferred into being an Junior Agent first.  Then there is common Agent which is basically a non family member House representative and of course Senior Agent who would be in charge of important affairs which is often times played by an IMM if you need to report IC.  A very high level, I'm sure there are more levels one could achieve IC but that's the basic game mechanics of it OOC.

Larrath

  • Posts: 2987
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2006, 04:08:47 PM »
The specific structure varies between Merchant Houses, but the basic build is this:
Please note that a Family Member can be any of these.

- Apprentice Merchant OR a House Aide
- A Full Merchant, sometimes called Junior Merchant, or an Agent.*
- A higher-ranked Agent or a Master Merchant.
- A Senior Agent
- House Head

* - this is where family member PCs start.

It is often more confusing because while a Junior Merchant in Kadius can be ranked above a Common Merchant, in a House like Kurac or Salarr it is exactly the reverse.

Now, a Family Member in the House that begins at the normal level isn't really well-to-do, though that rank does include those.  But if we said that a Merchant House Family consisted of around 500 people total, the breakdown would be like this:

Super-high management: 12
Regular Seniors, the NPCs Family Members report to: 60
Upper level non-Seniors: 120
Full-Merchant/Agent-level: 200
Lower levels (aides, crafters, work managers): 108

This is counting 3 major House locations, mind you.  In other words, a family member PC at that level isn't really special in his own House, and is really one of many.  They live a good life, but they're not very powerful in their House and, considered to how their superiors live (and earn) aren't really well-to-do at all.

A Regular Senior in a Merchant House can probably spend 20,000 'sids and forget what he did with them after a week.  Or at least in theory, since they're all good with numbers.
Quote from: Vesperas
...You have to ask yourself... do you love your PC more than you love its contribution to the game?

UnderSeven

  • Posts: 1439
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2006, 04:09:03 PM »
I think what Marko was doing was leaving 'common' non family merchants out entirly, which makes sense to me.  They are so far as I can tell equiviliant to normal common citizens and all of their power and standing would come purely from what politics and friends they can make.

Bebop

  • Posts: 3489
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2006, 04:15:53 PM »
It's all very intricate but my main point in response to Marko was that Junior Merchants are not usually bottom tier, especially family merchants.  They are in fact ranked already and usually above other workers.

UnderSeven

  • Posts: 1439
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2006, 04:18:13 PM »
I gathered, but the other workers you pointed out where all non family common and below whom would likely not even fall on the list, since Marko only really mentioned family rank, I beg to differ, in the way he put it (which I think works fine if you consider common workers regular commoners) then juniors ARE in fact bottom tier.

Larrath

  • Posts: 2987
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2006, 04:22:25 PM »
Quote from: "UnderSeven"
I gathered, but the other workers you pointed out where all non family common and below whom would likely not even fall on the list, since Marko only really mentioned family rank, I beg to differ, in the way he put it (which I think works fine if you consider common workers regular commoners) then juniors ARE in fact bottom tier.

Juniors are also the top rank if you look at it in an OOC sense, because most often a promotion would involve storing the character.

In the IC reality of things, Junior Merchant isn't the bottom tier for family members at all.  It's just boring to play a full-time inventory-taker and wagon loader/unloader.
Quote from: Vesperas
...You have to ask yourself... do you love your PC more than you love its contribution to the game?

marko

  • Posts: 1307
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2006, 04:24:10 PM »
Four generic ranges of merchants - exact titles will vary between the merchant houses.  The actual level within each broad spectrum is a matter of specifics and will, of course, factor into determine social heirarchy of the individual.

Basically, for the sake of some simplicity - I tossed merchants into the same ranks I toss nobles into, artisans into, templars into, and bards into:

low range
middle range
upper range
and really high up

So, nobles:

baby
middling
upper
way up there

templar:

baby
middling
upper
way up there

bard:

low
middle
high
really high

artisan:

low
middle
high
really high

Actual internal references are left out since they change over time and are specific to each house.  I suppose, one could take each internal clan structure and then make a full reference table but I don't see a real need for that.  Some simplicity allows for this to be useful to people at at glance.

What I've seen of every organization is that there tends to be four broad levels of power within the structure.  Within each of those broad levels are specifics that most poeple outside the structure really don't care about.  Sometimes it makes a difference in pecking order outside the clan and somtimes it doesn't.  Again, it all gets factored into the final tally of one's personal social level.

Angela Christine

  • Posts: 6595
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2006, 06:35:11 PM »
Just to confuse things further, theoretically a bard can also have a blood modifier.  A bard can be from a prestigious family.  She can have relatives that are famous bards.  Or from a family that was important in the Liberation of Tuluk.  It is even possible that a person born into a merchant family will want to be a bard, not a boring old merchant or crafter.


Angela Christine
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins