Author Topic: RE: Tuluk Caste System  (Read 10909 times)

Larrath

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« on: April 05, 2006, 11:34:13 PM »
Pretty sleepy so hopefully someone will contribute a more comprehensive post.  marko, I'm looking at you. :P

Basically, Bards and Artisans in Tuluk enjoy a very high social standing.  Apprentice Bards in the Poet's Circle are usually not very high on the food chain, being on par with newer aides and perhaps a non-blood Corporal in a Merchant House.
Seekers of the Poet's Circle get a bump in their standing, which would place them about on par with a Sergeant (noble or merchant) or possibly even lesser Merchant Family Members if they're very good.
Bards of the Poet's Circle get a smaller bump in status and are comparable to more influential Merchant Family Agents.
Master Bards are directly comparable to the lower-middling rank of Seniors in a Merchant House.

The highest seniors (and I'm not even talking Magnate) in a Great Merchant House are FAR above all but the most exceptional master bards.
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marko

  • Posts: 1307
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2006, 11:58:12 PM »
Hi!  I am here as summoned.  ;)

Tuluk has a caste system that is built upon four basic castes:

slaves, commoners, nobles, and templars

With this in mind, to answer the question posted on the imm board, blooded merchants are commoners and bards are commoners therefore relative status is a matter of social rank.

What does this really mean?

Well, bards have four ranks:

Apprentice, Seeker, Bard, and Master Bard

Merchants have a bunch of ranks too.  I tend to simplify it down to four.  

Merchant, Ranked Merchant, Upper Merchant, and House of House

Now, a bard is a third level in the social standing and a merchant who is fresh faced to the world is at the first rung.  Being a blooded merchant provides a boost to that social standing.  After all, a blooded merchant who is starting out is typically higher in social status than a hired merchant employee - even though they occupy the same social slot (as dictated by their job within the merchant house).

Patronage also has an effect on relative social standing.

Personal influence, power, renown, achievements, deeds, friends, etc all have affects as well.

In other words, a bard bard will be probably higher in influence (ie, social standing) than a new blooded merchant.  Why probably?  Well, it may be that the bard in question has done a bunch of really stupid mistakes - everyone hates them, known to hang out with magickers, loses all competitions, etc while the new blooded merchant makes some very powerful friends... in that case, the merchant is of a higher standing.

Basically, the system in Tuluk is complex and can be difficult to figure out.  I keep track of base positions (like apprentice artisan, or master bard, or aide of so and so) and then apply modifiers from there to figure out where people are relative to one another.

Further examples in Tlaloc's post :)  (he said it better than I did)

Cuusardo

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2006, 12:05:18 PM »
What it all boils down to is that bards and merchants are all still commoners, and are only allowed as much power as they are given by the ruling class.
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marko

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2006, 03:17:40 PM »
The hardest thing about writing about relative power and influence of any entity or person is the sheer scope and breadth of the possibilities.  I could write pages upon pages about this stuff and, by doing so, lose the attention of anyone reading. :)

I wanted to address Cuusardo's comment about power being allowed by the ruling class.  I dislike such blanket statements because they imply so much.  One of the implications the comment is that all nobles are more influential than all commoners and this isn't true.

At the borders of the Castes the relative power of individuals might not be in accordance to which Caste they belong to.

For example, the Head of House Salarr carries far more clout than a fresh-faced junior Noble.

And yet, to complicate matters, the junior Noble is still a Noble.  So, if somehow there was a disagreement amongst the two people, the Head of Salarr would have to back down.  But, guess who just committed political suicide?  Yes, the Junior Noble.  After pissing off the Head of Salarr we may see the Junior Noble be sanctioned by his own House and suffer all kinds of consequences.  And yet, at the moment of the confrontation, the Junior Noble won out due to his Caste standing.

To think of it another way, let's say there was a city wide party.  At this party there was a serving order from "most important" to "least."  For this serving order Junior Nobles would be always be served before Heads of Houses and Master Bards.  And yet, when engaged in conversation in the party afterwards, the words of the Heads of Houses and Master Bards would hold more sway than the Junior Noble.

This becomes more difficult to figure out - in terms of who gets served first and who is listened to over someone else - as the social standings are closer in their overlap.  For example, an established bard may have greater influence than a fresh-faced noble lord just starting out.  Therefore, while the noble lord would be served first over a bard bard in the conversations the bard bard would be listened to more - but not significantly more.  This can then lead to all sorts of interesting situations.  

What we need to keep in mind is that the higher castes are not automatically more influential in terms of real power when they start.   All characters in Tuluk earn their influence by their actions, friends, and promotions.  The higher castes merely start out much higher than the lower ones and have the potential for passing well beyond the reach of those below them.

So while an upper merchant has, for all intents and purposes, reached the top of their game a fresh-faced junior noble is just starting out.  Thus, at the start, the upper merchant has more influence (and thus social standing) than a fresh-faced junior noble.  In a year, two, five, or however long it takes that junior noble will be well above the upper merchant and still accumulating social standing.

This all leads to a careful dance at these overlaps.  Sometimes one person will forget their relative position and mistakenly do something which insults the other...

Cuusardo

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2006, 11:24:28 PM »
I was trying to keep it simple with my "blanket statement", because when it comes down to it, it is true.  If a noble or a templar feels any commoner has too much of anything, they can take it away.
Quote from: Anael
You know what I love about the word panic?  In Czech, it's the word for "male virgin".

Moofassa

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2006, 11:48:42 PM »
Quote from: "Cuusardo"
I was trying to keep it simple with my "blanket statement", because when it comes down to it, it is true.  If a noble or a templar feels any commoner has too much of anything, they can take it away.


Templar, yes. Noble, absolutely no way.
your mother is an elf.

Yokunama

  • Posts: 1894
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2006, 02:13:51 AM »
Marko, this is giving me a headache.:(

Code: [Select]
>drop pants
 You do not have that item.

Cuusardo

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2006, 11:36:26 AM »
Quote from: "Moofassa"
Quote from: "Cuusardo"
I was trying to keep it simple with my "blanket statement", because when it comes down to it, it is true.  If a noble or a templar feels any commoner has too much of anything, they can take it away.


Templar, yes. Noble, absolutely no way.


A noble can indeed do this.  I have seen it happen.
Quote from: Anael
You know what I love about the word panic?  In Czech, it's the word for "male virgin".

Marauder Moe

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2006, 11:38:44 AM »
At the very least, a noble can usually just ask a templar to confiscate whatever it is.

Tamarin

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2006, 11:43:21 AM »
Quote from: "Cuusardo"
Quote from: "Moofassa"
Quote from: "Cuusardo"
I was trying to keep it simple with my "blanket statement", because when it comes down to it, it is true.  If a noble or a templar feels any commoner has too much of anything, they can take it away.


Templar, yes. Noble, absolutely no way.


A noble can indeed do this.  I have seen it happen.


Just because a noble did it doesn't mean it should have happened.  I believe it says in the docs that Tuluki nobles can choose to bare (bear?) arms against a commoner if they choose to, but the ramifications would be quite severe if they didn't have a reaaaaaaaally good reason.

Nobles do NOT enforce laws in Tuluk.  They have jurisdiction over their own servants (ie house employees) because they can give them orders.  And if they wanted something from any other commoner, the commoner might be wise to give it over as a favor to the noble, but they do not have the authority to simply demand something and get it.  Unless perhaps it is their house's livery, but that's different because technically they actually would own that.

There's also the fact that commoners are protected by their relationships with the upper 2 castes.  If a noble wants something from some commoner, and that commoner happens to have a patron who is also a noble...forget about it.  Noble the first ain't getting SHIT, sistah.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Cuusardo

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2006, 12:13:33 PM »
That doesn't mean a noble can't take anything they want from a commoner.
Quote from: Anael
You know what I love about the word panic?  In Czech, it's the word for "male virgin".

Agent_137

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2006, 01:31:15 PM »
i think simple statements concerning tuluki caste systems are going to perpetually be inaccurate. Isn't that the point of tuluk? Really intricate socio-political system? Why boil it down? The fun of it is the intricacies.

ale six

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2006, 02:53:27 PM »
Wow. This makes Tuluki nobles sound like powerless pansies. I guess they really do suck.

LauraMars

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2006, 03:21:34 PM »
Quote from: "ale six"
Wow. This makes Tuluki nobles sound like powerless pansies. I guess they really do suck.


Like a hoover. *COUGH*

*dissapears*
Child, child, if you come to this doomed house, what is to save you?

if you steal my threesome idea i will give your PC a reason to wear that reward scar o yes

SpyGuy

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2006, 03:52:06 PM »
Quote from: "ale six"
Wow. This makes Tuluki nobles sound like powerless pansies. I guess they really do suck.


The exact same thing applies to nakki nobles by my understanding.  They don't own you, the templarate does.  A noble can't arrest you, nor can they attack commoners without some sort of reason (well, they can but they will likely get in trouble).  And as Tamarin said, if you have more powerful connections in the city then the noble could be doing a very bad thing by upseting you.

Nobles have power because they have a large House behind them, a large stipend for bribes and because of the noble PCs own actions to make them useful to the templarate.  No noble in the game is all powerful, they still need to convince a templar or an assassin to do their dirty work for them  :twisted:
o I only know how to make long rambling posts, it's a problem I know.  But just be glad I'm not posting all the crap I begin to write before I remember I don't know anything and hit the back button.  Be glad, be very glad.

Intrepid

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2006, 04:17:41 PM »
Actually, a noble in Allanak is immune to all but state and Highlord laws,
aren't they?  They could walk right up to someone and kill them but not
get punished for it by law at least.

In practice, killing the wrong person could make said noble suffer reprisal
depending on the deceased's standing and their owner's/clan's.
Proud Owner of her Very Own Delirium.

Tlaloc

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2006, 04:50:48 PM »
Quote from: "LauraMars"
Quote from: "ale six"
Wow. This makes Tuluki nobles sound like powerless pansies. I guess they really do suck.


Like a hoover. *COUGH*

*dissapears*


If you really feel this way, you are more than welcome to:

1) Try to cross a Tuluki noble, and see what happens.
2) Apply for a noble PC, and find our for yourself.
Tlaloc
Legend


LauraMars

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2006, 05:08:28 PM »
I dissapeared, Tlaloc!!  They dissapeared me!  Fate worse than death!

*cowers*
Child, child, if you come to this doomed house, what is to save you?

if you steal my threesome idea i will give your PC a reason to wear that reward scar o yes

Jherlen

  • Posts: 1620
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2006, 05:35:48 PM »
I'm pretty sure 'nakki nobles can do just about whatever they want to commoners who aren't merchant family or somebody else's servant and get away with it.
subdue thread
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ale six

  • Posts: 1219
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2006, 06:12:01 PM »
I thought it was more obvious I was being sarcastic...

(My point was actually that I imagined crossing Tuluki nobility - or nakki nobility for that matter - probably wasn't as easy and healthy an affair as people were making it sound.)

Cale_Knight

  • Posts: 1930
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2006, 06:17:33 PM »
Quote from: "Jherlen"
I'm pretty sure 'nakki nobles can do just about whatever they want to commoners who aren't merchant family or somebody else's servant and get away with it.


And god help you if you're that one PC in a hundred who isn't in some way affliliated with someone else, because they will get your ass.
Brevity is the soul of wit." -Shakespeare

"Omit needless words." -Strunk and White.

"Simplify, simplify." Thoreau

jcarter

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2006, 07:18:05 PM »
Think of Allanak like New York City. Rough, crude, and gritty. Direct.

Think of Tuluk like Seattle. The passive-aggressive capital of the world, where people will get back at you behind your back.

That should put things into perspective.

Tlaloc

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RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2006, 07:26:16 PM »
I see LauraMars and ale_six both have mastered the wonderful art of subtlety, such that even I missed it. Once you've passed the Free Art Test by drawing an erdlu and a raider and recieved your Tree Hugging License, you will be official Tuluki Citizens.

We'll tattoo you directly. Congrats!
Tlaloc
Legend


marko

  • Posts: 1307
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2006, 09:00:19 PM »
I thought how to address the question of the Tuluki noble caste for while and what they can do.

The first thing to understand about Tuluk's nobles is that they have bite.  They have real power.  With the restoration of the triumvirate (Tuluk's law making body) it was discovered that the noble caste held popular support amongst the common caste and thus had a real voice.

In other words - the noble caste in Tuluk gathers its power from the support of the common caste.  This is a very different situation than what exists in Allanak.  In Tuluk the patronage system has given the noble caste true power that they can flex and draw upon to enact laws and policy that they want.  

Understanding this power is paramount to answering the original point of this part of the discussion.  Can a noble do anything they want with impunity - as exemplified by a noble taking anything they want from a commoner?

Well, the answer is yes but not really.  To quote the docs (which I encourage everyone to read as it talks about this stuff: http://www.armageddon.org/general/tuluki_rp.html)

Quote from: "Tuluki RP Documentation"
A House's reputation is vital in that it affects the number of other Houses that will side with them in the Triumverate. Such incidents could potentially be perilous. Additionally, with a damaged reputation they are less likely to attract patrons. Patrons will seek other Houses that don't have black marks and aren't considered a social risk. This will result in a loss of influence and prestige for the House, which will further deteriorate their status. It is genuinely possible for a House to drop in rank because of something like this.


In other words any noble who went around doing something as blatant as ordering possessions directly off a commoner would find themselves damaging their reputation.  By damaging their reputation they would be negatively influencing their House's reputation.  By damaging their House's reputation they lower their House's overall social ranking and thus if this is done enough this action by this single noble could effectively take a top tiered House (Tenneshi or Winrothol) and drop them down into the middle tiers.  And for this reason any Noble that tried to do this in such a base and blatant manner would probably be sanctioned by their own House pretty fast.

This is why I had such a hard some thinking about what to say to the claim that a noble _could_ do this.  I just couldn't fathom any time ever that a noble would be so stupid to do so.  The repercussions are huge.  The Noble Caste and the Common Caste in Tuluk are a symbiotic relationship.  The Noble Caste is, definitely, above the Common Caste.  This isn't a question.  The Noble Caste relies upon the Common Caste for its "real" power in making the laws of Tuluk.  

This is the essence of a patronage.  Each Caste provides benefits to the other.  This is how Tuluk works.  Interdependencies between the Castes that make things complex and thus more interesting (at least in my view).

I cannot understand how or why any noble would break with this and betray the trust and relationship they have with the commoners - and by doing so destroying their own power - it just doesn't make sense to me.  

So again, the answer would be, "I suppose, in theory, it could be argued that one could try and do this but ... the consequences may not be pretty and there are so many better ways to get what you want anyway than blatantly forcing one's will upon another."

Conversely, for all those commoners out there - remember:  Tuluki Nobles have real power.  They can get stuff done.  They can bite.  Not only at a micro level but also at a macro level.  Nobles can enact laws.

Cuusardo

  • Posts: 3724
RE: Tuluk Caste System
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2006, 12:30:19 AM »
You were taking my statement far too literally.  By no means did I say that a Tuluki noble would walk up to some commoner and demand the shirt off of his back.  I meant on a far broader scheme.  But of course, people are quick to assume and bite other people's heads off and make fun of the bunnyhuggers.
Quote from: Anael
You know what I love about the word panic?  In Czech, it's the word for "male virgin".