Warriors and their culture

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In nearly all warriors there exists some notion of honor and fairness, and oftimes a vague conception of glory.

What's this about? I've been taught that nobody really has a sense of honor or fairness. Am I incorrect in this assumption, and if I am, what are fairness and honor in Zalanthas?

[Maybe42or54]

This is just my opinion. One that I have been pushing for a while now, so stick with me. Somethings are left over from the hack and slash chapter of Arm's history. This is one of them, among many.

[mansa]

Here's the quote in question.  Bolded by me.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/guilds.html#warrior
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?warrior

Warrior

There is only one calling which warriors follow: to fight, and perhaps to die fighting. Although motivated by innumerable goals, there are a few commonalities among warriors. In nearly all warriors there exists some notion of honor and fairness, and oftimes a vague conception of glory.

A warrior's skills involve only the many aspects of fighting. All warriors possess an aptitude for all weapons, and can learn to master them far beyond the meager abilities of other guilds. Unarmed combat, expert battle maneuvers such as disarming, the ability to hurl missiles, and the eventual expert use of bows and arrows are all part of a warrior's skills. Some master warriors can even bandage the wounded.

Warriors are the easiest persons to employ. They are invaluable as guards, soldiers, mercenaries, military advisors, outriders, scouts, gladiators, or even as assassins and spies. No other guild can match a warrior's combat prowess, and thus all warriors are much needed parts of any clan or mercantile operation. Master warriors are somtimes unwillingly and automatically nominated as leaders of small armies, or as captains of tribes and outposts.

[Dakkon Black]

I'd see that as being something like. Anyone who can put in enough time to master a weapon, or several weapons for that fact has to have some conception of glory, or a higher goal.

Even if it's evil glory, where everyone knows you for your badassery, you wanted that glory, else why would you practice so hard at it?

[spawnloser]

They also know what's a 'fair fight' and what isn't.  They're all aware, but it doesn't mean that they'll fight that way.

Honor?  Honoring a deal?  Doesn't mean they will, but again, they're aware of it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Glory isn't a hard concept to follow, even in our society. But it's the honor and fairness that I find question with. If this is not the case, if this is not how warriors think, then it needs to be changed, and if it is, then it needs to be clarified, because although an individual might have fairness and honor to him, there is no way a class should have the same weakness, not under those broad banners.

[flurry]

Good question.  I'm interested in staff perspective on that.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Glory isn't a hard concept to follow, even in our society. But it's the honor and fairness that I find question with. If this is not the case, if this is not how warriors think, then it needs to be changed, and if it is, then it needs to be clarified, because although an individual might have fairness and honor to him, there is no way a class should have the same weakness, not under those broad banners.

I think that it's entirely possible that a warrior would usually be taught these concepts.  They'll only kill in a fair fight.  Or if they think someone's about to start a fair fight.  Or if there's a girl involved.  Or if they're paid to.  Mostly if they're paid to.

Fairness:  Don't go around slaughtering defenseless people.  For a society to last, this would at least have to be TAUGHT to the warrior tradition, otherwise you'd have a bunch of murderers that aren't contributing to society.

Honor:  Again, a warrior might be TAUGHT that the best way of doing business is to stay bought once somebody buys you, and to develop a reputation for dependability.

In any event, there isn't anything that prevents any given warrior from spurning their teachings except fear of the consequences, and so it would be wrong to assume that any given warrior has respect for honor or fairness.

This little snippet doesn't have to mean that all warriors are paladins, staunchly battling Evil and forever in pursuit of Law, Good, and the American Way.  So I don't see that there's a big deal.  The whole thing's open to all manner of interpretation.

[Anonymous]

What's this about? I've been taught that nobody really has a sense of honor or fairness. Am I incorrect in this assumption, and if I am, what are fairness and honor in Zalanthas?

By whom were you taught that nobody has a sense of honor or fairness?  Honor is achieved in the eyes of others (that is, to be honored by virtuous people). As such, while the definition of honor may vary amidst the various populations of Zalanthas, the basic premise remains the same: a warrior wants to be honored by the virtuous sort (the templars, nobility, or anyone whom the individual deems virtuous or worthy). This is to say that one honored by a fool IS a fool.

Fairness, hypothetically, must possess a universal ground, and seeing as many societies on Earth (human history) may be deemed as unfair, the concept of fairness still persists. Therefore, we may conclude that the populace of Zalanthas must possess a concept of Fairness akin to us (and seeing as almost everyone role-plays a 21st century human, I do not see how this concept is not blatantly obvious -everywhere-).

Semper Pax,

Dirr

[Synthesis]

"Fairness, hypothetically, must possess a universal ground..."

Okay, what exactly is that supposed to mean?  I'm stumped.  Are you admitting to simply guessing that "fairness" must have universal meaning?  Are you saying that there is something inherent in humanity that makes "fairness" a universally understood concept?

(Paraphrased)

"We think some old societies were unfair, so fairness persists."
"Therefore, Zalanthans possess a concept of fairness similar to ours."

That's not even close to an argument.  I mean...I don't even know where to start with it.

Okay, now that I'm done with that...

I think this whole "warriors are honorable thing" is probably a relic from Armageddon's not-so-RPI past, that somebody overlooked.

I would personally be very disappointed to suddenly see a gaggle of "Death before Dishonor" types running around.

Sure, skilled fighters may develop a certain pride in their abilities, but I don't think anyone beyond the Tor Academy is developing a philosophy of honorable combat and the Noble Eightfold Path to Blade Mastery.

Zalanthas just ain't like that.  When the best swordsman in the Byn is finished training at the end of the day, he's still dirty, stinking, tired, hungry, sunburned, cranky, itching from the crotch-lice he got from that prostitute last week, probably still hung over from the night before, but already craving another ale.  -That's- what a Zalanthan warrior is:  a guy who's managed to survive long enough to learn a few neat tricks that will (maybe) keep him alive for a few more jobs.

Again, possible exceptions may exist for die-hard House guards and Noble guard contingents, but even the vast majority of these employees are just slightly better-dressed versions of the above.

And that's my take on the whole thing.

[Morrolan]

It means they don't get backstab.

[SpyGuy]

I don't like that line from the helpfile, it seems out of place.  I suggest it be removed.

The main objection that I have is that there is no universal warrior code.  Warrior as a class is just a set of skills for someone good at fighting, whether that is as a house guard, a lumberjack defending himself in the forest or a pitfighter struggling to get by.  The concepts in the sentence don't apply to all or even many Zalanthan warriors as I understand them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

It means they don't get backstab.

That's a point that I think everyone should consider.

[Hymwen]

It means they don't get backstab.

That's a point that I think everyone should consider.

And be thankful for.

[Cenghiz]

Fairness does not have a universal meaning.
In the history of Turks, a fair fight always meant one on one - same weapons - same condition.
In the history of the far eastern countries grouping against a master warrior was something normal and fair, which would be an unfair attempt to murder instead of a battle in turkish lands.
Also a far eastern warrior would see a turkish warrior drops his own shield after shattering the foe's in a 'fair' fight and think "Fool turks.". Gah, he would even be right.
Fairness is relative. In the world, in the known world and even in the elemental plane of Drov.

[Marauder Moe]

I've said it before: the guild descriptions seem to be very old and should be updated.  Not just the one for warriors either.

[Desertman]

I've said it before: the guild descriptions seem to be very old and should be updated. Not just the one for warriors either.

This has always got me...The docs were written to mold the game world in a certain way and the players are trusted to follow the docs. Now everyone knows what the docs intend for us to do, but we all also know what we are going to do. The game world was written and intended to be a certain way but because everyone wants to do thier own little thing (I do it to) that isnt exactly how the game world turned out.


So the question is....Should the docs be reworked to match the players?


Or should the players re-work the way they play to match the docs?


I leave it to you to decide.

[Marauder Moe]

The docs aren't some holy scripture.  It's just text written by several different people over the course of the last decade or so.  There are a few inconsistencies with in them and between them and the game world.  This is one example.

Do you really think that regardless of personality, "nearly all" guild_warrior characters should now prefer to fight in fair and honorable fights?  Should they all start spouting poetry about the glory of the blade?

I'm not trying to argue that the true spirit of Armageddon lies solely within the game and the docs should conform, though.  There are inconsistencies within the game and in player's behavior as well.  Things should be fixed on all sides.

[Desertman]

Perhaps I am fanatical...but if the docs say it. I follow it. In this particular instance I dont think they should be spouting poetry ect...but I can see an evil pc warrior haveing these qualities just as easy if RP'ed correctly. For example...an evil pc warrior might have ideals of fairness in the fact that he wont fight an unarmed man....Did you see King Arthur at the end where the evil bad guy warrior actually kicks the blade back over to the good guy that dropped it because he wanted to kill him in a fair fight...even though he was evil....that seems to be something like the docs are depicting here. Not that all warriors should be poetry singing goody goodies....just that they should have that basic warrior under coating that wont allow them to resort to petty thievery ect....the kind of man that will cut your throat and laugh at you but do it to your face because he is a mighty warrior who -can- do it to your face.


Everything is open to interpretation even the docs....the docs arent flawed, people are just flawed in the ways they percieve them. In my opinion.

[LoD]

The snippet everyone seems to take issue with is -- "In nearly all warriors there exists some notion of honor and fairness, and oftimes a vague conception of glory."

First of all, it doesn't make any claims whatsoever that a warrior must be honorable or fair by our common day terms.  It simply states that a warrior would have a notion of these qualities.  And the reason they would have a notion is because their life is based loosely on the pursuit of martial perfection over time.  Hard work is rewarded with proficiency.

Like anything that we obtain through hard work, it is something to be respected, protected and treasured.  One warrior may understand what another warrior has gone through to reach a certain level of ability because they've shared that road.  That shared understanding could be perceived as honor, and while that doesn't mean they would retain any of our notions of honor, it may mean that there is a level of respect granted between them.  I would also say that the greater the skill of the warrior, the greater mutual respect they would likely have for one another.

With accomplishment often comes pride.  A warrior's life may be dedicated to martial glory, and that becomes the measure of success in his life.  Once you've reached a certain point in your ability, you may develop a notion of fairness because a true warrior will constantly want to evolve and better themselves.  This may not transfer onto a battlefield where there are "no holds barred", but in other situations such as training, sparring, exhibition matches, tournaments -- a true warrior may desire a fair fight to demonstrate without doubt that they are the better skilled of the two.

That a warrior has a notion of both honor and fairness is hardly a far cry for the world of Zalanthas, nor is it misplaced in the documentation.  It merely means what it says, and nothing more.

-LoD

[Cenghiz]

How may I be heard?
Everyone has their opinion of fairness and honour. The docs just tell you to form one instead of wandering around mindlessly.

Hello, I'm Joe the warrior. I'm from Red Storm. In my village, water is nearly holy. So, before I start a fight, I ask my opponent if he's thirsty, and share my water if necessary. A man who's going to die drinks the nice warm water one last time for fairness sake, eh?

I'm Siba.. I'm from the tablelands, gypsy as most of you call. Sometimes there are fights amongst the tribes here. When you utterly destroy an opposing army, you should head to their camp and kill all children, too. Or you will give trouble to your children to fight in the future, which is not fair. If they're too young, you can adopt them though. They won't remember their parents.

I'm Alea.. I'm a warrior of Cenyr. After I and my friends capture a disturbing intruder, we often take him to a raptor nest and leave him, with only a single knife. It's nice seeing him struggle in pain as the raptors eat him alive. What did you say, unfair? Bah. I told you, we do it to only strangers. What's the meaning to do it to someone with a tribe around here? It would be unfair to all of your tribemates.

Build up something like this and you're fine.. Noone forces you to obey stupid rules of some RL society. It's ARM. Make up your own rules of fairness.

[Marauder Moe]

For new players who don't know what "honor" and "fairness" mean in Zalanthas, though, it's a misleading sentance.  They might believe that if they make a guild_warrior they have to play like ye knights of olde and salute their opponents before begining an honorable duel, or whatever their notion of honor and fairness is.  They won't know that these things can have very different meanings in the game.

Really, though, I think the docs need to stress that the (non-karma) guild you pick does not have to dictate your character's personality in any way.


Also from the same document...

Assassins are often the simplest people to employ

The most sure way to find work as a merchant is to travel widely, joining caravans at every opportunity.

some pickpockets can obtain contracts to steal specific items, and very good pickpockets can develop reputations which will earn them very highly paid contracts.

Stone elementalists are often employed as part of an army or scouting group

Water elementalists are highly employable.

Nearly as much as water elementalists, wind elementalists are able to sell their spells for a good profit.

These statements are also misleading, and not representative of the way things are in the game these days or how other parts of the documents describe the world and society.

[Cenghiz]

I will have to insist, in the least the stuff about the elementalists are still true. Water elementalists are quickly employed by the templerate and House Oash. Stone elementalists are often seeked by warrior-like groups who are open to mages. And about wind elementalists.. Err I do not know what their spells consist of. I didn't have time to play such a whiran yet. I managed to sell chantings with other types of elementalists, so I believe it is not impossible.

And I should also insist assassins are easiest to be employed. When your employer learns about your abilities, you become only more valuable. Pickpockets are valuable in North as far as I know, but I don't know if the same's true for south. And if a merchant 'could' find caravans to travel, he would be rich.

But I get your point. Newbies tend to make knight-like warriors or assassins telling employers: "Hi I want to join House............ I am an assassin."

Of course we must confess, the documentation needs clearance for people new to the game.

[Rindan]

Eh, I think it is just an old throw back from when the game was a hack and slash.  I can safely say that my warriors almost never have any sort of honor and generally are the type to kick a man when he is down or cut him open when his back is turned.

I think Jayne summed up the mentality that I like to use:
"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid. "

[SpyGuy]

For new players who don't know what "honor" and "fairness" mean in Zalanthas, though, it's a misleading sentance.  They might believe that if they make a guild_warrior they have to play like ye knights of olde and salute their opponents before begining an honorable duel, or whatever their notion of honor and fairness is.  They won't know that these things can have very different meanings in the game.

Really, though, I think the docs need to stress that the (non-karma) guild you pick does not have to dictate your character's personality in any way.

My opinion exactly.  I won't go in to the other examples (I feel some of those are more subjective and more in line with the game world than the specific warrior instance).  The fact that the line implies that warriors are like D&D paladins, or even that that's a valid concept for a character on Arm, I feel in misleading and dangerous for very new players (who are probably the ones concentrating most on a helpfile about classes).  There can be honorable warriors no doubt, but most will be tempered by their environment.  The most honorable character I've ever played was also probably my grittiest and most foul mouthed PC as well.  New players from other MUDs/RPing environments are probably always going to bow to every fancily dressed PC and call them M'lord or M'lady, I sure as hell know I did with my first PC.  But I was corrected and moved on, thanks sarahjc  :wink:   And they'll probably play honorable warriors too, nothing wrong with it but the question is should the docs be worded so as to promote this?

I'd like for all class helpfiles to have in big bold letters up top "What you pick as a class does not determine who your character is.  It is skill set designed to offer PCs a variety of abilities with which to play a character in the world and interact with the environment realisitcally" or something much better than I could write.

I think a more Armageddon-style paragraph to replace the one currently in the helpfile would be:

There is only one calling which warriors follow: to fight, and perhaps to die fighting. Although motivated by some common goals such as survival, wealth or fame, there are few commonalities among warriors. Each warrior is a creation of his or her own experiences and their reasons to work towards those goals and methods of achieving them are as varied as the individuals themselves.  This guild is easily appropriate for a range of character types from an honorable defender of a desert tribe, a corrupt militia soldier in one of the city states or a dirt poor pitfighter struggling to earn his coin through bar room challenges.  The only absolute trait warriors have in common is that they are capable fighters, moreso than any other guild.

[EvilRoeSlade]

These statements are also misleading, and not representative of the way things are in the game these days or how other parts of the documents describe the world and society.

In all of those quotes I would rather see the players change rather than the documentation.

[Marauder Moe]

These statements are also misleading, and not representative of the way things are in the game these days or how other parts of the documents describe the world and society.

In all of those quotes I would rather see the players change rather than the documentation.

Assassins and pickpockets should advertise themselves publicly?  On the rumor boards maybe?  Should Amos the Hunter one day say "Well, I know that magickers are evil but I think risking my soul is worth it to have Magicker Bob tag along and magick us around the known world"?

Are you serious?

The only one I'd agree with you is the one abount merchants.  Some independant PC (or even NPC) caravans would be awesome.  However, there aren't any now and until there are it's a misleading statement.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Yes, I would like to see more temporary/mercenary as well as permanent positions for magickers in Allanak.  In truth I really don't give a shit that commoners are supposed to fear magickers and avoid them at all costs, because avoiding something at all costs is BORING and doesn't add enjoyment to the game for anyone.  Though I'd like people to respect the documentation in their role-play and be cautious with their dealings with magickers, I wouldn't mind seeing more exceptions.

As for assassins and pickpockets advertising themselves publically, that isn't what I'm reading from the documentation at all.

[Marauder Moe]

What I mean is, I don't see how you can call it "easily employed" when you have to keep your profession a secret.  Publicly known assassins and thieves don't do very well.

I suppose we'll just have to disagree a bit on magickers.  I don't think they should never be able to get work, but it should be pretty rare.  The guild doc makes it seem like it should be common, though.

[EvilRoeSlade]

What I mean is, I don't see how you can call it "easily employed" when you have to keep your profession a secret.  Publicly known assassins and thieves don't do very well.

Again, I'm not reading the same thing.  I don't see it said that assassins or pickpockets are easily employed anywhere.

[Cale_Knight]

Assassins are often the simplest people to employ, for various warring
factions usually have a desire to see their enemies slain quietly and
simply, with minimal risk to themselves. For this reason, skilled assassins
are almost never without work.

However, some pickpockets can obtain contracts to steal
specific items, and very good pickpockets can develop reputations which
will earn them very highly paid contracts. Fortunate pickpockets are able
to obtain permanent contracts with noble houses or even from templars.


From their respective help files.

[Tuannon]

SKILLED!

Emphasis on skilled.. as an assassin or whatever, your best bet is to not let on to your employer what skills you have until you are sure they think they can trust you and then you let the cat out of the bag.

[ArmWindworn]

"Sure would be nice if we had some Gernades!!!!"
                      or
    "Lets be Bad Guys"

           Not exactly the model of the modern honerable warrior is he

Glory isn't a hard concept to follow, even in our society. But it's the honor and fairness that I find question with. If this is not the case, if this is not how warriors think, then it needs to be changed, and if it is, then it needs to be clarified, because although an individual might have fairness and honor to him, there is no way a class should have the same weakness, not under those broad banners.

I think that it's entirely possible that a warrior would usually be taught these concepts.  They'll only kill in a fair fight.  Or if they think someone's about to start a fair fight.  Or if there's a girl involved.  Or if they're paid to.  Mostly if they're paid to.

Fairness:  Don't go around slaughtering defenseless people.  For a society to last, this would at least have to be TAUGHT to the warrior tradition, otherwise you'd have a bunch of murderers that aren't contributing to society.

Honor:  Again, a warrior might be TAUGHT that the best way of doing business is to stay bought once somebody buys you, and to develop a reputation for dependability.

In any event, there isn't anything that prevents any given warrior from spurning their teachings except fear of the consequences, and so it would be wrong to assume that any given warrior has respect for honor or fairness.

This little snippet doesn't have to mean that all warriors are paladins, staunchly battling Evil and forever in pursuit of Law, Good, and the American Way.  So I don't see that there's a big deal.  The whole thing's open to all manner of interpretation.

[Manhattan]

I'd like for all class helpfiles to have in big bold letters up top "What you pick as a class does not determine who your character is.  It is skill set designed to offer PCs a variety of abilities with which to play a character in the world and interact with the environment realisitcally" or something much better than I could write.

The only absolute trait warriors have in common is that they are capable fighters, moreso than any other guild.

[spawnloser]

I think magickers should be more employable too.  I mean, mercenary style work for magickers would be perfect.  Thirsty?  Find a vivaduan.  Going to be running around outside and want some protection?  Need some caravan burnt to the ground?  Call a Krathi.

[jhunter]

I think magickers should be more employable too.  I mean, mercenary style work for magickers would be perfect.  Thirsty?  Find a vivaduan.  Going to be running around outside and want some protection?  Need some caravan burnt to the ground?  Call a Krathi.

Agreed. Besides Oash they just aren't hired enough.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, I seemed to have openned a can of worms. My question was not whether the docs needed to be changed, but, what did the honor and fairness stand for.

You all seem to have answered that admirably, Roe and LoD in particular. It is good to see things like this discussed.

[Folker]

not to derail a thread, but I disagree about magickers completely. If they're freely hired, then how are they shunned? To be honest, I think people go to Vivadian temple for healing too much as it is.

[EvilRoeSlade]

not to derail a thread, but I disagree about magickers completely. If they're freely hired, then how are they shunned? To be honest, I think people go to Vivadian temple for healing too much as it is.

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

If somebody who will associate with water elementalists is an exception, then at least it's an exception that the documentation makes legitimate.

But I'm going to expand upon my point that exceptions are more valuable to the game in this instance.  Tell me which of the following is more interesting.

Sark found out that he was a stone elementalist at a young age and was then gemmed and forced to live in the temple in the elementalist's quarter.  Since nobody ever talks to magickers, he lived his entire life without doing anything out of the ordinary or even having a mildly interesting conversation.  One day he died of old age.

Or...

Sark stepped back into the gates of Allanak, realizing with vague alarm that he hadn't been back for a month.  It seemed that as he grew older, his desire and need to return to the city was more and more fleeting.  On his way back to his apartment, a large, well-armored man suddenly stepped out of an alley, blocking his way.  Sark began to move around him but the man grabbed him by the arm.
"Stop and chat with me a bit, eh?"
"Hey stop, I don't have any money!"  Protested Sark, but the man dragged him into the alley.
"Me and my boys are plannin' an expedition outside the gates.  It's been said that you might be useful for this kind of work, so I'm gonna make you a little offer.
"But let's just get one thing straight," said the man, pulling back his cloak to reveal a wickedly-bladed handaxe.  "One wrong move... and you're DEAD."

The purpose of Armageddon is story-telling.  You can't tell an effective story without interaction.

[Intrepid]

I love the Elementalists' Quarter in Allanak, as well as the regalia and
tattoos.  In fact, I would have loved to be able to visit a tavern in that
quarter and never have to frequent the Barrel or the Gaj when I was
playing my gemmer.

However, the system in Allanak just makes rogue elementalists that much
more appealing and exciting...and profitable.  So I must say, being a
black-marketing mage will always be my first option when I play an
elementalist so long as Oash is the only hiring option.  Sorry, but I just
never liked the idea of working for Oash just because they were the only
employers.

The one thing that gets me is Red Storm allowing in some of the people
they do, but not allowing a "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy for mages.  It
seems like the village was created specifically to be mage-proof, when it
should be just the opposite given that the philosophy regarding all other
facets of the village has always been "anything goes, if you're careful".

[Angela Christine]

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything.  Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets.  They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed.  It sounds pretty dull.


Angela Christine

[jhunter]

Some excellent points here.

You can still be an Allanaki mage and be somewhat shunned and disliked for what you are. That doesn't mean that noone will use you to their benefit.
People should make more use of the elementalists in Allanak.

Also, I completely agree with what AC said as well...

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything. Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets. They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed. It sounds pretty dull.

The people that do hire mages don't usually put them to use doing anything. They're treated like living trophies or something. It's dumb.

[Cale_Knight]

The amount of stuff Oashi mages get to do seems in direct proportion to how often the 'nakki militia orders them to do things.

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes, but it does look pretty dull.

[jhunter]

The amount of stuff Oashi mages get to do seems in direct proportion to how often the 'nakki militia orders them to do things.

I'm sure there's plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes, but it does look pretty dull.

I'm not speaking about what it -looks- like. I've been on their end of it. You're just a trophy that gathers dust for the -most- part. Rarely was my pc or any of the others put to any actual use.

[spawnloser]

Heh, good wage, AC?  Play a gemmer working for Oash.  They're paid...adequetely, considering that they're a bunch of mages and most of their needs are handled by themselves.

Yes, they are basically told, "Become useful!" and then left to do so...and once they are useful, used...but it's like working as a guard for a noble house.  You start off a wuss and need to practice some skills to become useful.  The House keeps you alive in the meantime through a combination of food, water and pay (but not necessarily all of these things) and provides a central point for you to work from.  The rest is your own doing.

Really, though most take the, "Become useful,' command to mean practicing skills, becoming useful isn't just about skills.  You can be useful in other capacities, and being a gemmer in Oash's pay is much the same.

[jmordetsky]

That quote should be removed from the docs. It's dumb.

[jcarter]

I think that, more likely than not ethics are taught within houses to the guards/soldiers/warriors as well as by other instructors.

Does Tor really want a reputation for their soldiers to be baby-killing, elf-raping, sneaky backstabbing soldiers? Not likely. Despite Zalanthas being harsh and cruel, there is more than likely several ethics and taboos, as well as concepts of right and wrong to certain groups of people. I have a hard time believing otherwise, as the cities and such in place today simply couldn't exist. The lieutenants would be killing the captains so they could take their ranks. Brothers would turn against brothers in a vie for dominance. There would be near anarchy in the world. Sure, it may be that someone is strong enough to enforce their wil, but everyone has a weakness and is susceptible to something.

[Oashi kank]

Sorry to derail this thread further but some of this needed a response:

To Cale_Knight:  Nothing could be further from the truth when the clan is strong.  Requests from a templar can actually be distracting from the really fun stuff you're already doing.  The fact that Oash is often called upon by the templarate is largely icing on the cake, depending on how deep House plots are going.

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything.  Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets.  They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed.  It sounds pretty dull.


Angela Christine

I'm sorry that was your experience AC and I have no doubt that you and jhunter did have boring experiences in Oash.  Just like people have boring experiences in the Byn, in Kurac, or whatever other clan.

For a LONG time Oash was a dead clan where there was a serious lack of active nobles.  And when there aren't many other gemmed playing, and a lot of gemmed refuse to join Oash because of an OOC perception that it's a boring role...snowball effect in tearing down the clan.

Here's some thoughts on playing an Oashi mage:

1) The "become useful" command, as already mentioned by swawnloser, means in part spells because out of the box mages are largely useless but also has other meanings.  Playing a fun Oashi gemmed can and probably should mean playing like an aide PC as well.  Eavesdrop, make contacts and connections, search for componentry, spy....make yourself useful!  And I'll tell you that some magicker classes have abilities to assist in these capacities that would make a mundane aide piss his pants.

2)  Practicing spells:  You're going to do that anyway, I don't see much of a difference.  Oh but wait...Oashi gemmed should follow the law and not leave the city except when ordered.  Hmm, sounds familiar to the same rules as the Byn to prevent their runners from going out onto the sands and getting themselves killed while practicing fighting versus deadly opponents.  Sure it's boring to spar or to practice spells in your temple but it also helps you survive to get to a point where stuff really does get enjoyable.

3)  Network:  Oash is all about networking and mages using their powers in conjunction.  Think your krathi is powerful?  Wait till they get aided by a few Ruk spells and then see what they can do.  The clan atmosphere (when active) also gives you a group of people to exchange info and contacts with thereby increasing your ability to do #1 and #2

4)  Think about your element:  Element means everything in what role you will fill in the House.  And people need to think hard about what type of role they want to play.  Not all roles are equal however, some magicker types will have a lot more freedom to use their spells for the House's benefit.  But I think an enterprising character, with good support from leader PCs, can find a lot of things to do with their element beyond what happens during RPT time.

5) Unobtrusive?:  AC you say Oashi mages should be as unobtrusive as possible.  That would be a terrible role to find yourself in, but it's not my experience.  If you work on the above four points, particularly other parts of "become useful", you can be in the spotlight in no time.  Yet you are still an aide, no doubt about that and you need to understand the limits and bounds of your PC.  But unlike an Atrium aide who is largely embraced by everyone you have an uphill battle to win a place in society despite the gem hanging around your neck.  And that struggle in and of itself can be enjoyable to roleplay.

All that stuff said, Oash depends on leaders.  If you don't have great leader support that knows what they're doing commanding magickers then you won't have a fun experience.  But this is like any clan, the Byn is dreadful when there isn't a competent Sergeant around to get contracts.  But when there is then it's one of my favorite clans.  Please don't judge Oash on past experiences, to think of any of the PCs I interact with as "trophies" really saddens me because I worry that now others will read that and take it as truth.  I'm sure it has been but it certainly hasn't been MY experience with the clan.  I've appreciated all my activity with Oashi staff, nobles, and magickers and hope to see the clan thrive whether I'm playing in it or not.

Conclusion:  Playing an Oashi magicker can be a lot like playing a House Aide that has the power to slaughter a room full of people with a wave of his hand.

[Vesperas]

Bah, you don't even need to be "useful" to get the fun out of Oash.

[Angela Christine]

The other problem with working for a noble house is that often your job doesn't involve actually doing anything.  Not always of course, but often mages working for nobles are little more than pets.  They are given a good wage to wear a funny cloak and practice their spells, but otherwise be as unobtrusive as possible and wait for the call that magick is needed.  It sounds pretty dull.

I'm sorry that was your experience AC and I have no doubt that you and jhunter did have boring experiences in Oash.

Just for clairity, I've never been a mage in noble house.  That's why I said "sounds dull" rather than "was dull'.    


Still, I'd like it if there were more piecework for mages.  More choices than either joining a noble house or mining 'sid for money.


Angela Christine

[Delirium]

The idea just struck me..

What about mage-specific 'quests' in the elementalists quarter, for money-makers?

Quests that require objects or skills provided only by various mage spells.

That way, a mage could make a small amount of money without needing to leave the gates or even the elementalists' Quarter, and would have another option besides entering service of a noble House.

[spawnloser]

You mean something along the lines of, an NPC that needs water...so the Vivaduan makes X amount of water and gets Y amount of coins?

[Delirium]

You mean something along the lines of, an NPC that needs water...so the Vivaduan makes X amount of water and gets Y amount of coins?

Yup.

A Vivaduan could and still can sell to PCs - however - the PC market fluctuates and is often far more sparse than would accurately be reflected.

[Cale_Knight]

Hell, that kind of stuff would be awesome for everyone. Not just those filthy gemmers.

[Larrath]

Hell, that kind of stuff would be awesome for everyone. Not just those filthy gemmers.

I already get upset when I see perfectly mundane PCs walk around the elementalist's quarter selling Component-type items.  I don't think normalizing PCs running errands for soul-eating magickers is a good idea.

[Maybe42or54]

That's like dealing with half breeds can send you to the most horrible hell pit. I'm not for making magicking Pcs mundane and more acceptable in the eyes of the common populace.

[Cale_Knight]

I already get upset when I see perfectly mundane PCs walk around the elementalist's quarter selling Component-type items.  I don't think normalizing PCs running errands for soul-eating magickers is a good idea.

No, I mean tiny questish scripts would be great all over the place, not just in the magicker quarter.

[Cenghiz]

Which's less horrible? Travelling to north, stopping at an alien outpost on the way, facing gith, scrabs, beetles, raiders, wild elves, reenegade mages and defilers on the way or speaking to a Whiran and asking to buy logs for a price from him? Facing silt horrors, silt flyers, scrabs, beetles, unlawful red storm spiceheads, reenegade mages, defilers and storms to acquire *xxx - maybe IC for some* or asking about it to a mage of proper type? What would you prefer? An elkran or whiran bringing you glass from Cenyr or going yourself?
Commoners fear mages. It's true. But sometimes they're the less frightening when it comes to scavenging and some other business. I don't think "They're mages, fear them and do not employ them for anything." attitude is very logical. Many unbelieveable tasks are so easy for them. So they may often ask for less for a task.
And I would hate to see NPCs giving quests. C'mon.. That just doesn't feel right.
If you're human, have southern accent and play at least close to the peak, you get employed. I never had an exception with a gemmed char of mine. Also these roles are often interesting. Templar players are always good at keeping your character busy. House Oash performs trips if nothing else interesting is possible at that time. It's simply easy to find jobs, as I see it. But if that's not enough, please let something other than NPC quests be added.

[Rindan]

I personally think that gemmed are massivly under employed.  Gemmed are scary bastards that most commoners should avoid, but that doesn't mean that everyone fails to see their obvious utility.  If I were to start up my own little band of Allanaki mercenaries, I would have a gemmed contacts and hire them out from time to time.  Sure, I wouldn't be terribly vocal about it, but I wouldn't overlook the obvious utility of having a guy who can turn a clumsy assault into a magikally aided sneak attack.

Dealing with a gemmed is like dealing with a criminal.  Most honest people would avoid such dealings.  Not everyone is honest.  They might have reservations and be on their guard when having such dealings, but they would still have them.

[Synthesis]

Cenghiz:

Most ordinary Zalanthans have no idea -what- magickers can do, beyond the rudimentary knowledge of elements, perhaps, and given that, they have no reason to speak to them in the first place.  This means that the business transaction conversation is never going to take place.  Also, your average commoner is -terrified- of magick.  For them, asking a magicker for help would be akin to trying to mount a wild inix.  Sure, it might help you out a bunch, but this thing might also decide to eat your brainz...and if they're so good at moving heavy things around, it's likely that nobody will ever find your corpse.

Employing a magicker for such mundane purposes as scavenging for items or running errands (even if profitable) would never even cross the mind of the average Zalanthan.  Sure, it might not be logical from our OOC perspective, but this is how the game world is.  Magick is not something that people factor into their cost-benefit analyses.  It's not another resource to exploit for fun and profit.  Magick is serious, dangerous, scary business, and it's not to be trifled with unless you have a very serious, compelling reason.  (Or you're completely out of your gourd.)

Regarding raiding missions and things of that nature:  these seem to be the province more of the Templarate and the nobility.  I can see Kurac doing it (because Kurac gets all sorts of passes to do whatever bizarre things they decide they want to do, anyway), but Kadius and Salarr don't "raid" things and they seem to be managing quite well on their own, without the (overt) assistance of magickers.  So...who exactly needs this magickal augmentation?  It would ultimately be useful only to those without the resources to overcome obstacles on mundane terms...which is to say...exactly those who one wouldn't expect to be dallying with magickers.

Beyond that, you'd have to deal with the repercussions from other commoners.  If you're in the business of selling things, the last thing you want to do is tarnish your image by dealing with a magicker.  It raises all sorts of suspicions:  how does he know so much about magick?  Where did he meet this magicker?  What other sort of business are they conducting that we don't know about?  Are his goods tainted with magick?  Does -he- have a magick taint that might rub off on me?  If he thinks I'm screwing him on a bargain, will he pay his magicker associate to steal my babies in the middle of the night and turn them into jozhals?

Furthermore, why would a magicker (I'm going to assume we're talking about southern gemmed magickers, here) risk his or her butt out in some unlawful, unpredictable wilderness just to go fetch you some logs where a random raider or other nasty beastie could quite possibly kill them?  Since they're so resourceful, they probably have other, much safer ways of sustaining themselves, which is why you don't see elementalists in the Barrel striking up conversations...."So, Joe...I hear you're mining 'sid...you know...it'd be a -lot- easier if you had some shade out there...you know? I mean...I can do that...what do you say? Cut me in on half?"  They have an entire (rather large) segment of the city in which they can hang out, and where (technically) it's illegal for anyone but soldiers, templars, and other magickers to wander.  Why would they leave their safe haven to risk their necks for a few 'sid?  Why would the average magicker even bother with accumulating 'sid when 1) they live at the whim of the Templarate every single moment of their lives and 2) the kind of power and enjoyment you can get from 'sid alone pales in comparison to the kind of power they can call forth with a few syllables (assuming that they're after power at all, which would vary from person to person).

As to magickers being underemployed, this is more a function of PC realities than with the population.  The population of elementalists in Allanak is quite large enough for it to live self-sustainably.  They aren't all just lurking around their temples practicing their spells all day, like PC magickers tend to do.  

The vast majority of them probably spend little time at all worrying about magickal things, unless they're forced to do so.  (Now I'm just speculating, but bear with me...) Why?  Power makes you useful.  And being useful is more likely to get you killed than anything else when you've got a dull black gem around your neck. (I seriously doubt any of them have any illusions as to what exactly those gems are for.)  

Given this, they probably have the same distribution of menial jobs as everyone else in Allanak, but they trade with each other for what they need.  Perhaps a very, very small minority would have contacts with commoners--mundane relatives or acquaintances formed over decades of cautious interaction--but these would be far from the rule.

In conclusion...sure, I can think of a plethora of IC justifications for using magickers for whatever or for doing whatever as a magicker.  However, a lot of them just don't make any sense once you account for the entire game world, and the ones that remain require a very specific set of criteria be met before it becomes a reasonable proposition...

Just say "no" to magick.

[Cale_Knight]

They have an entire (rather large) segment of the city in which they can hang out, and where (technically) it's illegal for anyone but soldiers, templars, and other magickers to wander.

If I understand the law correctly, only the actual temples are off-limits to citizens.

For the average citizen, going into the elementalist quarter would be about the same as going into the 'rinth. Nobody's stopping you, but (as far as you know), you very well might not make it out alive.

[Cenghiz]

Most ordinary Zalanthans have no idea -what- magickers can do, beyond the rudimentary knowledge of elements, perhaps, and given that, they have no reason to speak to them in the first place. This means that the business transaction conversation is never going to take place. Also, your average commoner is -terrified- of magick. For them, asking a magicker for help would be akin to trying to mount a wild inix. Sure, it might help you out a bunch, but this thing might also decide to eat your brainz...and if they're so good at moving heavy things around, it's likely that nobody will ever find your corpse.

Wrong. In Allanak, people are allowed to know what magickers can to a degree according to the helpfiles. Like, a lot of Allanaki would know rukkians are able to form shelters in travel, because the helpfile says so.
I had asked about it in Ask The Staff before. It's even IC for someone from somewhere else who frequents Allanak to know about magickers.
Accepted by Staff: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16388&highlight= (Last paraghraph and second answer)

The next paraghraph is automagickally rejected. As the helpfiles state, rukkians are best travellers and whirans may sell their magick for cash and they may be employed for their abilities, see the staff's answer above, also the helpfiles of elementalists.

Regarding raiding missions and things of that nature: these seem to be the province more of the Templarate and the nobility. I can see Kurac doing it (because Kurac gets all sorts of passes to do whatever bizarre things they decide they want to do, anyway), but Kadius and Salarr don't "raid" things and they seem to be managing quite well on their own, without the (overt) assistance of magickers. So...who exactly needs this magickal augmentation? It would ultimately be useful only to those without the resources to overcome obstacles on mundane terms...which is to say...exactly those who one wouldn't expect to be dallying with magickers.

As I did mention: Independent folks seeking glass from Cenyr, wood from northlands and some items in the artifact category from ruins. An assassin would love to become invisible or have a skin of stone. A hunter could ask for summoning or guidance when he's lost in storm in exchange of coins. Possibilities are simply endless. Kadius and Salarr cannot hire magickers for obvious reasons, but not everyone is kadian or salarri.

Beyond that, you'd have to deal with the repercussions from other commoners. If you're in the business of selling things, the last thing you want to do is tarnish your image by dealing with a magicker. It raises all sorts of suspicions: how does he know so much about magick? Where did he meet this magicker? What other sort of business are they conducting that we don't know about? Are his goods tainted with magick? Does -he- have a magick taint that might rub off on me? If he thinks I'm screwing him on a bargain, will he pay his magicker associate to steal my babies in the middle of the night and turn them into jozhals?

Same goes for Guild, right? Working with people in dark, hooded cloaks does not feel right to an honest commoner. Guild assassins can whack you to a dead bleeding pulp in a moment. Guild revenges when screwed up.... Guild deals with everyone in Allanak.
.... As I mentioned in my post, if you're to mess with dangers including ungemmed magickers and defilers in the desert on the road to Cenyr or somewhere else far away or gemmed magickers, a sane and normal person may choose to blubber his wish to a gemmer instead.

Furthermore, why would a magicker (I'm going to assume we're talking about southern gemmed magickers, here) risk his or her butt out in some unlawful, unpredictable wilderness just to go fetch you some logs where a random raider or other nasty beastie could quite possibly kill them?

Become a 20-day-old magicker and it takes more than three adept warriors to scratch you. I had mages who were ambushed by armies of gith, swarms of tribals or even military organizations like Tor and kept on with less than 20 points of damage. You're underestimating magickers, like many do. Believe me or not, it's not more than a jogging for a few different elementalist types to pass through raptors, scrabs, beetles, gith and raiders towards a baobab grove, chop some wood and come back. So why shouldn't they?

They have an entire (rather large) segment of the city in which they can hang out, and where (technically) it's illegal for anyone but soldiers, templars, and other magickers to wander.

It's technically legal for mundane people to wander in the Elementalist's Quarter.

And being useful is more likely to get you killed than anything else when you've got a dull black gem around your neck. (I seriously doubt any of them have any illusions as to what exactly those gems are for.)

When a templar gems you, the first thing he does is demonstrate what the gem is for. And.. The more useful you are, the more lords/ladies use you and want you alive. I had a gemmer cheating on templars, getting caught redhanded and staying alive even without punishment, just because he was way too useful to dispose of.

Forgive me but I sense lack of information on your part. Please let's not assume things against the official view or the documentation.

[Synthesis]

Cenghiz, on a point-by-point basis:

1. The "help magick" helpfile specifically states that the general public knows very little about magick.  Perhaps the helpfiles do state that Rukkians make good travelling companions, but I think that may be an artifact of the MUD's history, not a consistent fact.  It certainly seems to make little sense, and at any rate, it contradicts the more general statement that magick is FEARED and HATED (also from the help files).

2. Again...assassins and hunters would not ask for spells to be cast on them because they have no idea what spells can do, generally.  Maybe over time an exceptional mundane individual could become somewhat familiar with magick, but this is not the sort of knowledge one picks up as a matter of course.  Going back to the help file...magick is a MYSTERIOUS and VERY RARE power.  It's not like knowing where the North Road goes or where Red Storm's at.  Independents simply would not hire magickers, and it's highly unlikely that magickers would hire themselves out, for the reasons I outlined in my first post.  Halaster's response to your question back in December seemed rather off-the-cuff, and I seriously doubt this is a position that it would be desirable to maintain, unless some fundamental changes were made to the way average folks view magick.  Or here's another quote from the helpfiles, since you seem to place such importance on them: "Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist."  If only large organizations are doing it -at all-...why would small-time independents (and all independents are small-time, considering the help files state that the large merchant Houses CONTROL the economy) be doing it for such trivial matters as wood and stone?

3. Hiring a magicker has nothing to do with the Guild.  The Guild -forces- people to work with -them-...or else.  You deal with the Guild because you have to...because they're everywhere, and if you don't, they'll kill you.  Magickers are absoloutely nothing like this (in Allanak, anyway), and at any rate, the scenario you outline isn't even remotely similar to extortion.  They're two completely different types of danger that you're confounding here.

4. I'm sure I've seen quite enough of the capabilities of magickers to make my case with some certainty.  Regardless, the question remains the same:  why would a magicker with the ability to fend off swarms of gith even -bother- with chopping wood or running to Cenyr? Why? There's just no good reason at all, beyond coinage.  And it seems to me that a magicker with this level of mastery would be easily hired by an APPROPRIATE organization, e.g. a Noble House, for far greater sums of money than any mere groveling independent merchant could hope to afford.

5. During the course of play for my last militia character, it was specifically illegal for ungemmed personnel to be found anywhere in the Elementalists' Quarter, and I was ordered to conduct regular patrols there to keep the riff-raff out.  Now, maybe this was a temporary thing, or has been changed recently, but I'm going to stick to this one until an AoD Imm says otherwise.  Beyond the mere legality, though, there's the whole issue of "why would a mundane person be there in the first place?"  Why?  Again, there's just -no- good reason for the vast majority of individuals.  Magick is FEARED and HATED by the VAST MAJORITY of the population of Zalanthas.  (This is right out of the help file, since you seem to be such a stickler for it.)

6. I'm not talking about being "disposed of" here.  I'm talking about being used for dangerous tasks and being killed in the process.  If Lord Fancypants knows you can cast Fart of Doom, eventually he's going to want you to use it on somebody...and that's the sort of thing that ends up getting a fellow killed, even (especially?) if you're the one doing the casting.

As far as my information, I've documented my position well enough--at least as well as you've documented yours, at any rate.

[spawnloser]

Synthesis, on a point-by-point basis:

1 Resolve issues between helpfiles by believing both.  Commong mundane people don't know much of anything about magick, but they know that Rukkians make great travelers, and that vivaduans can heal and make water...etc.  Also, just because a thing is feared or hated does not mean it can not still be used.  These things do not conflict, so don't use that as a basis for your argument that magickers shouldn't be employed by more than just two organizations.

2 Okay, pretend Hunter Bob, with his hunting crew, gets over his fear enough to get help from a Rukkian.  He doesn't know what the Rukkian can do, but he asked for help, and Rukkian obliges...casting spells on him.  Initially, Bob freaks out...but then slowly realizes that he isn't hurt, etc.  Okay, decides the hunter, this magicker ain't all bad...doesn't mean he's changed his mind about the rest, and his having backup was the only reason he decided to hire the magicker in the first place.  (Hint: for your 'large organization' quote, 'large' is a relative term.)

3 The Guild doesn't force everyone to work with them.  I use the fact that I've played in the 'Rinth a few times and not been forced to work with them...in fact, opposed the Guild a couple times.  For a normal schmuck sort of role in this game, though, the Guild is someone you will try to avoid, just like magickers...unless you come across something that they can fix for you, then you take a deep breath, grimace and deal with them.

4 Why work like that?  Well, everyone needs to eat, and some people don't want their magick sold, but what they do with their magick...a fine point.  The difference is getting paid to do a job...and the other is being paid to cast a spell.  Some people don't want to be the magicker first...they want to be the person that grew up doing some trade, so they'd rather keep doing it and use their magical abilities to make it easier.  Your non-magicker characters jobs are not defined by guild, so why should all magickers be locked into a role where they are their guild and nothing else?

5 There is no mention in the post on the tavern board in Allanak stating that it is generally illegal.  Templars are Law unto themselves, though, and that particular Templar PC may have said it was illegal on a whim and stuck with it.  Doesn't mean other Templars will enforce, let alone know about, it.  My suspicion is that you weren't being told the full story and that it had to do something with Rinthi's...suspiciously dirty and ungemmed people wandering through the Elementalists Quarter.

6 You know, if being useful to someone will cause that someone to kill you...we have LOTS of retarded leaders in this game.  Useful things are kept around, useless ones discarded.  Also, Lord Fancypants may want you to use a certain spell on someone...but a smart Lord Fancypants will not just discard an experienced employee to something stupid.  Plans can be made and preperations done.  Also, as long as you're the peon in an organization, you'll be the one sent to do dangerous things...be you a warrior, ranger, assassin, burglar, rukkian, whiran...doesn't matter.  You're the grunt, and they're the noble/merchant/boss.  They tell you what to do, and sometimes those things include doing things dangerous.  This is no different between guilds, be they casters or not.

[Larrath]

I disagree with spawnloser on a couple of points.

First of all, the hunter might see that the Rukkian cast a spell on him and that he wasn't hurt.  But how can that hunter know that this spell won't make him impotent, curse him with bad luck, cause his house to fall down or infest his offspring with elementalism?  Not to mention destroying his soul or anything.

Second thing is about nobles and magickers as their grunts.  Magickers are nothing like regular employees.  If you yell at an aide in your Estate, at the worst case the aide might pull out a dagger and jump at you, being quickly wiped out by the NPC bodyguard.  If you yell at a powerful Rukkian in your Estate and he snaps, the entire Estate can turn into rubble in seconds.  Piss off a strong Krathi and you might find that the fire he's started is actually burning through the stone walls.
Explain that to your superiors.

Magickers are extremely dangerous, and anyone who wants to work with them and survive (especially the Oashi) has to be aware of the risks.  Once you have a powerful magicker who doesn't care about his own personal life in your Estate, you are going to have to handle some 50+ deaths in the near-by region if you're lucky enough to survive yourself.
Don't look at it in that "okay, Rukkian Spell #4 doesn't do any coded damage, so my PC feels no pain or gets any harm from it".  Superstitions are priceless and extremely beneficial for roleplay.

[spawnloser]

Yes, but for playability and to follow some of the docs, it's okay for people to get past that superstition, is what I'm saying.

[Larrath]

Yes, but for playability and to follow some of the docs, it's okay for people to get past that superstition, is what I'm saying.

The game is not unplayable because gemmed magickers are avoided.  I had a human gemmer once and I had a wonderful time because he was shunned by everyone.
It's okay for people to get past the superstition IF they have a good reason.  Educated PCs (such as Merchant Family, not broke regular merchants) would know that the vast majority of the superstitions is bullshit, but some independent hunter?  Not unless someone from his family was a magicker.

I agree that magickers terrifying everyone and being hated is not an iron-clad rule, but I also think that if one out of five of your characters isn't hateful or fearful of magickers, you're playing the exception too much.

A well-played magicker needs most people to hate him, just like a well-played half-elf has to be treated like shit by most people.  If you and your ten PC friends pick up a random half-elf and start treating him like a king and invariably putting up with whatever half-elven defenses he might put up, well, most likely that half-elf's player will get pretty pissed.
I know I got upset when my deformed and lonely gemmer got three supermodel-looking women just begging to get him in bed - it simply threw a wrench into his whole persona.

[jhunter]

Yes, but for playability and to follow some of the docs, it's okay for people to get past that superstition, is what I'm saying.

Agreed. I think that some of the rp toward magickers needs to be improved by people not playing every single pc as being so foolish not to utilize a perfectly useful tool (albeit a potentially dangerous one) when they see it. In Allanak, mages are supposed to be utilized more than they actually are. Just because you fear something  doesn't mean that you won't utilize it to your benefit. Sure, -some- people might. But the intelligent and calculating ones would not.
Do you not use a sword because you could cut yourself? No. You learn how to use it so that you can utilize it to your benefit without bringing harm to yourself.
In the case of the Allanaki and elementalists, I think too many people are playing the minority instead of what should realistically be the majority. Does everyone fear and mistrust mages? Sure. Have they all grown up around them most of their lives in the city and heard some of what they can do? Yup. Have they all seen that powerful people use mages effectively to their benefit? Mostly. After all, the templarate and House Oash use them. Must be some reason behind it. Why wouldn't someone pay a mage to go risk their lives to accomplish something for them? Why wouldn't they pay a mage to go "curse" their enemy?
Just because I may fear you, doesn't mean I won't use you if I can. And if you happen to die in the process, no skin off my nose.

[Larrath]

Do you not use a sword because you could cut yourself? No. You learn how to use it so that you can utilize it to your benefit without bringing harm to yourself.

Would you pick up a barrel packed with flash-powder and plant it somewhere as a weapon?  Because if you mess up, or run into flame or the barrel is messed up or someone tricked you or heard about it, you'll be blasted to bits.

[jhunter]

Do you not use a sword because you could cut yourself? No. You learn how to use it so that you can utilize it to your benefit without bringing harm to yourself.

Would you pick up a barrel packed with flash-powder and plant it somewhere as a weapon?  Because if you mess up, or run into flame or the barrel is messed up or someone tricked you or heard about it, you'll be blasted to bits.

Yes. And it's been done in game many many times. Multiple barrels in a few cases. That further proves my point, even if it is potentially dangerous, people will utilize something if it serves their purpose.

[EvilRoeSlade]

The game is not unplayable because gemmed magickers are avoided.  I had a human gemmer once and I had a wonderful time because he was shunned by everyone.

That's nice, but the rest of us enjoy interaction with other PCs.

[LauraMars]

I like how what's being discussed has nothing to do with the original topic anymore.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I like how what's being discussed has nothing to do with the original topic anymore.

Yeah it's called the natural course of a discussion.   :P

[Larrath]

I like how what's being discussed has nothing to do with the original topic anymore.

Sure it does.
We're flame warriors.

[God]

Hey, I'm mentioned in there!

[Jakahri]

The game is not unplayable because gemmed magickers are avoided.  I had a human gemmer once and I had a wonderful time because he was shunned by everyone.

That's nice, but the rest of us enjoy interaction with other PCs.

Absolutely. I've played a half-elf gemmed in the past, and it's one of the most restrictive roles in the game. It didn't matter that I had the potential to cause alot of destruction; no house wanted me because of my mixed lineage.

[Synthesis]

Spawnloser:

1. Why would people know that Rukkians make great traveling companions?  Who is out there traveling with Rukkians and spreading this good word?  -Nobody- is.  I can understand people knowing that Vivaduans can heal and make water--I'll grant you that.  But for almost every other magickal capability...no.  Just no.  I can't imagine a realistic scenario where an ordinary Zalanthan would think to himself, "You know...this would be -so- much easier if I had that really creepy guy who could probably burn me alive from the inside out giving me a hand."  Neither am I going to grant you that a feared and hated thing can still be used.  If you truly fear and hate something, you'll want to keep it as far away from you as possible, or get rid of it at the earliest opportunity.  You're not going to hang around and see if it might be useful.

2. Your second point is an extension of the first, and I've already addressed the first.  The same reasoning applies here.

3. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Guild works.  I'm not going to give any more specifics, but your entire 3rd point is upside down and backwards.

4. I never said magickers are defined by their guild.  In fact, I seem to recall specifically stating that the majority of magickers probably don't spend a lot of time magicking about.  What I -did- wonder is:  "Why would an incredibly powerful magicker waste his time with menial tasks?"  If you can wade through an army of gith and laugh, you just don't go out and chop wood for fun and profit.  It makes no sense.

5. Fine, mundane people can go into the Elementalists' Quarter, legally.  This still doesn't mean they ever would, under normal circumstances.

6. You entirely misunderstand my point, here.  My point is -not- that someone will kill you because you're useful to someone else.  My point is that your -employer- will send you to do something DANGEROUS that will likely GET YOU KILLED.  Comparing magickal employees to mundane employees is not good form, here.  The types of things you send a magicker to do are inherently more dangerous than the things you'd send a mundane employee to do...because if it weren't...why wouldn't you send the mundane employee in the first place?  If you -need- magick to solve the problem, then it's a BIG problem...and big problems tend to have big consequences for failure.

If you start believing that magickers can be hired by ordinary people to do magickal things in order to help them with ordinary stuff, you completely unravel the basis for magickers being shunned, feared, and hated in the first place.  If everyone realizes that magickers are useful (and hell, they -might-...I don't think so, but the truth or falsity of this belief doesn't affect the outcome of this argument), it doesn't change the fact that they FEAR and HATE them.  It's like saying "Sure, that Saddam Hussein runs a -great- organization!  Look how he built up the Ba'ath Party!  20-some years in power, what a trooper!  Sure wish we had him to run our new corporate training program!"

This is how magickers should be reviled.  They aren't just ordinary blokes who can do some funny things.  They're feared like mad dogs that Tek keeps around for whatever reason.  If the Templarate decided to stop affording magickers protection, the magickers of Allanak would leave the city overnight, or they'd slowly be slaughtered in the streets, one by one.  Allanakis are fundamentally the same as Tulukis when it comes to magick:  they despise it.  I think the fact that they're constantly exposed to it would not make them any less fearful.  To continue the terrorist example, look at Israel.  Israelis have lived right next door to the most extreme terror groups in the world for how long, now?  Are Israelis any more acceptant of terrorism because of it? No--they probably hate it more than any other nation on the planet.  Allanakis forced to live nearby magickers probably feel the same way as most Israelis--given the chance, they'd drag every last terrorist/magicker out into the street and cut their throat without thinking twice.

[jhunter]

All I have to say is that I just simply disagree with alot of your take on it Synthesis. If we continue to go the route we're going, gemmed magickers are going to end up as unplayable as muls.

Is that what we want?

It needs to be loosened up a bit to keep more roleplaying opportunities open for that type of role and allow for more fun for the players of the gemmed.

So far, a gemmed mage is the most lonely and boring role I've ever played in this game. I've given it a few tries to see if it would be any different, put alot of effort into getting interaction, getting jobs and such. Unless things change a bit, I for one will be keeping my magicking limited to ungemmed.
Better to get -some- interaction with people who don't know you are a mage and at some point the fun of being hunted, than almost no interaction at all.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Actually, muls are more playable than Magickers, truthfully. There is as much room for muls outside of the two city-states as there is for magickers in the single city-state.

Now, in all honesty, I don't have a problem with magickers being shunned and reviled all over the world, including Allanak, but until and unless we get sub-classes with the ability to function not just as a crafter but also a fighter in some regard, magickers will continue to get the shaft as PCs.

I understand that it is within the world's scope for magickers to be scary and feared and isolated, but within the scope of PCs relations, it is like openning the gith again, who would only interact through generally hostile events with the rest of the player base.

Now the Quarter in Allanak is nice ... there are a few features there which make it possible for a PC to live the way he should IG, but there needs to be some mainstreaming and colonization there, some fleshing out of the area with a tavern and a few more shops ... what might be even better, for the players at least, is some sort of event that would raise a magicker's status within society ... likely some sort of highly visible event in which a magicker saved a little child or a group of nobles or some other such thing ... something that pushed public perception towards the positive spectrum.

Perhaps magickers could be employed by the Militia as soldiers ... that would at least allow them to interact more IC, rather still feared or not.

[jhunter]

Perhaps magickers could be employed by the Militia as soldiers ... that would at least allow them to interact more IC, rather still feared or not.

Good idea. Weren't they used by Allanak during the war? Besides, what better way for them to keep tabs on mages. Employ them.

[EvilRoeSlade]

A magicker is never going to be wearing a militia dustcloak and patrolling the city streets, looking for pickpockets to bust and I'm fine with that.

But unofficially using them as soldiers for the capacity of war is pretty much possible already.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't know why they can't wear a Militia cloak ... but beyond that. I think the point is that Magickers need more avenues for attention.

There is nowhere near enough War for PCs to be happy.

[Intrepid]

I'm just glad to be playing a magicker when I do.  The supernatural roles
are meant to be more difficult to get started with and maintain over time,
but if you find an angle you can do it--whether it be covert or overt.

In the long run, I've found it to be easier to be a covert mage, but starting
as such is not easy.  On the other hand, overt mages have their perks
starting off, but in time they fall into a rut.

Disclaimer: I am referring to elementalists when I state the above.  You
sorcerers are on your own, and psionicists are a whole different method
of play.

[Cenghiz]

Synthesis, to be direct..
The staff mentioned gemmers may be hired. It's normal. It may draw funny looks but it's normal, right?
Then they can be.. Whatever you say doesn't change it.. Still...

1. Because gemmed magickers do not always get 500 leagues away from the city to chant. You see someone from element X or Y or Z dashing past you in an unbelieveable speed. You find magickally created resting places by different elements. Maybe you even find element Z filling himself with energy. There are VNPCs hunting in the desert, too. There are many times imms love showing this population by sending [edited to add] people to [/edited to add] someone casting too close to cities.

3. I know once guild hired three elementalists of different types. Enough argument?

4. Wading out an army of gith doesn't give you silk clothes, Nenyuk's rent, clear water, stuffed ginka and beautiful prostitudes. But we can safely say finding 10 pearls and managing to sell them to a jewelrymaker would possibly buy you a nice silk shawl in the least. Got it?

5. Of course they won't.. My all elementalists like forcing them away. They may be burglars or thieves. But they can.. That's the point.

6. If there's a big problem, often mundane dies first. When a defiler arrives, 4 PC soldiers die, and one krathi.

And to the last paraghraph: Leave being fearsome to magicker player owners. I'm sure we can keep on being fearsome more if we can earn enough to bribe a templar for future problems. Don't worry about it.
And Allanakis do not hate magickers. They simply fear. If you impose newbies they hate magickers in Allanak, they'll fill the desert with their corpses too soon. (Damn they already like attacking very powerful magickers upon sight and die.) They're aware of the power and fearful, just that.

[John]

I'm sorry for replying to an old quote, but I just had to.

If you start believing that magickers can be hired by ordinary people to do magickal things in order to help them with ordinary stuff, you completely unravel the basis for magickers being shunned, feared, and hated in the first place.  If everyone realizes that magickers are useful (and hell, they -might-...I don't think so, but the truth or falsity of this belief doesn't affect the outcome of this argument), it doesn't change the fact that they FEAR and HATE them.  It's like saying "Sure, that Saddam Hussein runs a -great- organization!  Look how he built up the Ba'ath Party!  20-some years in power, what a trooper!  Sure wish we had him to run our new corporate training program!"

You know what, I am beginning to think that perhaps magickers can be hired. And your Saddam Hussein example is helping me view it that way.

The Australian government is in a lot of hot water at the moment because they dealt with Saddam Hussein, while yelling at the top of their voice "Hussein is a dangerous person who should be deposed for freedom and god!" What they did was secretly dealt with him because it was profitable, up until the point where they invaded him.

I think the Australian government can help show people how to reconcile "everyone hates magickers, but they're useful" Are magickers dangerous? Sure. But you get to underpay them. Deal with them in very particular instances, perhaps mundane, perhaps magickal, and you will have a profitable business. Sure if you get caught out, you might lose some clients, so you'll have to do damage control.

If you disagree Synthesis, that's fine. Everyone has different opinions. I just had to respond to your example of Saddam Hussein, given Australian politics at the moment

[moab]

From help water elementalist:

Water elementalists are highly employable. As companions on journies they are worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Usually, a water elementalists can earn an easy living by selling the water she conjures at a lower price than the templars will offer from their wells. Perhaps more than any other mage, water elementalists can sell their magicks for a good profit in almost any situation.

[Agent_137]

yea, but we're discussing the viability of those documents themselves.


personally, I think magickers should be employed more because some legitimate IC case can be made for it, and I'm sure the poor gemmers are bored anyway. But at the same time, i think that doc right there and the others like it are old relics that want things to be taken too far, and should be changed to reflect immortal's opinions on the employability of magickers in the real zalanthas.