Author Topic: Whaaaaaat?  (Read 6085 times)

Khorm

  • Posts: 362
Whaaaaaat?
« on: January 29, 2003, 06:21:40 PM »
I have a question regarding the creation of clans and what not. I've been working on several character concepts I'd like to screw around with when my current character dies. Like I've thought about trying to establish certain 'clans' or 'guilds', anything along those lines. And I'm just wondering how that would work out, application wise and everything. Like I wouldn't expect to start off with the clan, because I'd imagine the IMMs would require you to build some sort of renown/fortune in order to do this.

But yeah, I'm just wondering if someone can give me some insight on this. Thanks oh so much.
Her head is average.

crymerci

  • Posts: 1529
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2003, 06:28:53 PM »
Just play like a regular character, and start an uncoded clan. Then once it's going strong, you might be able to get it coded.
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Rindan

  • Posts: 2825
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2003, 07:31:13 PM »
Well, if the clan in question is related by blood, then you probably need to start your character off describing his relation to the clan.  If on the otherhand you want to make a clan that is not related by blood, then just start a normal character and then start your clan.  No need to go fancy unless you have to.  You are just a Joe Blow who decided that he wanted to start  his clan of super secret assassins, bad ass mercenaries, or what not.

Khorm

  • Posts: 362
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2003, 08:10:31 PM »
I kinda had a fairly good idea about starting one out, but was somewhat confused about continuing w/ it, getting IMM support and what not. I mean, obviously super secret assassins are going to need super secret costumes, and a super secret HQ. Do the immortals work with you on that sort of thing, if it seems like it's something that has potential?
Her head is average.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 5925
Well
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2003, 08:12:40 PM »
No, I don't think they usually just say 'Yeah, let's make him a hideout and get him some nice gear.' How did the hideout get there?  Who made you the gear?  Try making the character, and living it out to the point that he's a super secret assassin, and to the point he has the resources to get a hideout, and the hookups for the gear.

Its more fun that way anyway :)
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Khorm

  • Posts: 362
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2003, 08:17:22 PM »
Okay, I want to make it -very- clear that I'm not expecting the immortals to hand me all this stuff. And I'm sorry if it seemed that way, or you read into it too much.

What I'm asking now is this: If and when I was to get to the point of super duper assassin, is it possible to get imm support with all this stuff. That's IF I have the resources and what not.
Her head is average.

Rindan

  • Posts: 2825
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2003, 08:51:44 PM »
Quote from: "Khorm"
Okay, I want to make it -very- clear that I'm not expecting the immortals to hand me all this stuff. And I'm sorry if it seemed that way, or you read into it too much.

What I'm asking now is this: If and when I was to get to the point of super duper assassin, is it possible to get imm support with all this stuff. That's IF I have the resources and what not.


Yes, it is possible to get imm support.  That said, expect to pay a high price both ICly and OOCly.  

ICly, you will need money in order to build your citadel of doom, and you will need to find some people that are willing to build said citadel of pure unbridled destruction.  Don’t expect to wish up and saying, “Ka, I got 50,000 ‘sid, can I have a  secret hide out now” to work.  Expect to go through all the work that it would take to get anything.

OOCly, before you get much in the way if imm support, you will probably need to prove that you are OOCly serious.  Namely, you will need to eventually document your clan like any other clan is documented.  You will need to show that you don’t intend to do anything dumb like die in a foolish manner.  No one wants to spend time making things for you, only for you to decide that you are bored and go gith wrestling.  You will need followers, and a way to pass along power.  The more you show that you are serious about your plans, I imagine the more support you will get.

If I were to suggest anything, it would be to start your clan without expecting any imm support.  Go ahead and keep them informed with what you are doing but don’t plan on their support.  If you show that you are a worthwhile investment in the world, then you can expect to start receiving a little help.  Truly though, most anything short of building a compound can be done through players.  If you want special uniforms, there are merchant houses who can help you.  If you want a place to hide out, there are abandoned buildings and a noble houses who can rent you houses.  If you want equipment, there are always merchant houses waiting to sell you their goods.  You can do a lot on your own.  The more you do on your own, the more likely you will be to get some help.

Anonymous

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Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2003, 05:14:54 AM »
It seems that the latest fad is to want to create your own PC-run clan.  Unfortunately I do not believe that the player base is large enough to support the existing clans (without painfully scattering the players away from any interaction), let alone aspiring to create your own clan.

I imagine with each instance of a clan concept, there is already a clan like that in game.  Why make 10 different merchant clans who sells weapons, for example?  There is one already: Salarr.  It might be fun if there were more than one, but it really spreads things out too much.  You want to join a band of thieves?  I assure you, they already exist.  Or a mercenary band, you might find a couple existing, active clans who fall into this category.  You want a hunting group?  Just about every merchant and noble house has a group of hunters.

While I don't think the making of your own clan should be outright banned, I don't think you should get any staff support until such a time comes that you and your group are so reknown, and so involved with the rest of the game world that it becomes a necessity.  You can do it all on your own anyways.  You can buy your own house even, if you have the money.  Implementing it as a coded clan is really only a nifty code, it doesn't really change things.  So, if you have patience, if you think you can keep your character alive for longer than a real year, you just might pull it off.  But wouldn't you rather find an existing clan with an existing group of players that fits the concept you are looking for?  Unless it's something amazingly set apart from the rest of the other clans, like a group of professional chefs, I don't see the purpose really.

Meep

  • Posts: 135
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2003, 05:40:49 AM »
Chitin Chef Competitions?
lt;Varak> "If my theory proves correct, weezers and dwarves, due to their similar evolutionary environment, should join in a symbiotic relationship in extended isolation."

Angela Christine

  • Posts: 6595
Trapped!
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2003, 06:00:10 AM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
But wouldn't you rather find an existing clan with an existing group of players that fits the concept you are looking for?  Unless it's something amazingly set apart from the rest of the other clans, like a group of professional chefs, I don't see the purpose really.


I think there is an allure to starting with nothing and building something that may become a permanent part of the world.  If I recall correctly House Delann was a player built clan, and even though it doesn't exist as an open clan anymore there are still a couple NPC Delann shops in the world.  You start with one character and a dream, and build something that makes a permanent mark in the world, something you can be proud of.  

When you join a clan you can become well known and influential, probably more influential than a new clan will ever be, but it isn't yours.  There may be the perception that you aren't a self-made man, you are a hireling or an heir, and there will always be higher ranking NPCs pulling your strings.  Working and struggling to get your own wagon or your own shop without the support of a huge organization, that's something that can give you both IC and OOC satisfaction.  Having wagons, shops and compounds put at your disposal because you were hired by clan X just isn't the same.  No matter how hard you work, you are just the latest in a long line of Kadians, Bynners or Borsails, and nothing you do will make a big difference to the world, the inertia of history will see to that.  I've heard of Thrain Ironsword, but I've never heard what clans, if any, he belonged to.

Another reason to start your own clan is because you want to be part of certain kind of clan, a particular theme or corporate culture, and if you start your own you get to set the standards.  Suppose you want a desert elf tribe that are fine craftsmen and traders, more interested in "thieving" through shrewd bargaining then crude raiding -- there may already be a tribe like that, but how do you know?  The introductory entries on the clans page gives you a vague impression of what each clan's area of interest is, but tells you nothing about the mood or theme of the clan.  The only way to find out is to join the clan, and if you don't like it the clan rules and your own RP standards may trap you in a boring role for months.  You can't quit the clan, because it is just the sort of cushy job your character wanted so he'd be a fool to quit, so you log in each day praying for someone, anyone, even a no RP PKer to kill the character so that you can finally be free -- in this case the tendancy for clanned characters to live longer than independants is a curse rather a blessing.  Or you just stop logging in much at all, slowly letting the character atrophe while you go spend your time on something else.  If you "own" the clan you can adjust the standards to allow yourself to do things you enjoy, in an official clan the rules and culture can become a straightjacket that sucks all the joy out of the game for you.

I believe that part of what keeps some players from joining established clans is the fear of being trapped.  Trapped in a role you don't like, trapped with characters you don't like, trapped in some godforsaken clan compound with all the food and water you like but nothing to do.  I've had 3 or 4 characters, out of 30 or 40 total, that have been in clans.  The clanned characters did get more big events in their lives, more sense of comeraderie and belonging.  But they also had many, many more hours of boardom, more stressing while waiting for certain clan members show up, and general headaches co-ordinating events.  I don't know that I've ever seen a planned event start less than an hour late, it takes forever to get everyone mounted up and ready to go, but when I'm independant I can get up and go whenever I want, and if something comes up in RL and I can't make it I'm not letting anyone else down.

Clans are good, but I can definately empathise with people who don't want to go through the trial and error of finding an existing clan that fits their vision.

AC
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

Khorm

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Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2003, 07:01:43 AM »
Amen.
Her head is average.

Anonymous

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Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2003, 09:20:23 AM »
But that's the thing, Angela, joining a clan isn't about individualism, it's about working in a group for IC goals, and toward making the game a richer atmosphere for all involved, not just yourself.

Mind you, I'm only stating my opinion, I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong because they disagree with me.   :P  I am only stating that I would prefer to see the focus on existing clans, and why.

I would like to add, however, that a large number of clans at present are closed because the player base cannot support it.  Granted, there have been a few new clans open up recently, but only at the expense of twice as many closing.  Armageddon doesn't have the steady 100 player peak hours that I'm told it once did.

LoD (Snarf)

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Clans - New vs. Old
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2003, 04:43:02 AM »
Leading a clan is rough work.

Established or brand new, it requires hours of time both online and offline making sure that everyone is taken care of, including the Imms.  You have to be available for your players, provide and update documentation, keep plots moving, people entertained and all this while trying to have a good time.

I have been involved in a quite a few clans in my time and, contrary to AC's comments regarding an inabiliy to shape the world via pre-established clan characters, it is possible to make an impact upon the world with EITHER route.

The key to being a successful clan leader is forming a realistic and workable plan, setting it into motion and following through no matter how long it may take and how many obstacles are thrown in your way.  The Imms aren't just going to read your email on 'Clan ChewyChomp's Desert Fortress of Power' and get to work creating it after you log and mail in a few hours of RP.

The Imms want the rewards to come as a result of hard work and a few risks along the way.  They'll throw in a few bumps to see how well you handle the problems and give you a chance to make a good story.  Some players see these blocks as "getting screwed" simply because they were hoping they'd rise to the height of power within a House/Clan simply by sitting in taverns for years on end - which does happen.

As a pro-active player, however, I have made several attempts to change and alter the world with my clans and the clans of the game.

Ironswords.  The Ironswords are a documented dwarven clan that beseiged the city-state of Allanak for a game YEAR after freeing the southern slaves of the obsidian mines.  Led by Thrain Ironsword, yours truly.  It didn't just happen though.  I didn't wake up and decide to do it.

Wish all Hey, going to attack Allanak tonight - load up about 100 dwarven NPC's if you could, thanks.  I'll let you know when to attack.

That's now how it works.  I built contacts, worked out relationships with clans, built my army and trained them.  Worked hard to develop my character and my concept - gained support politically and physically.  Then, when everything came to a head - we attacked.

It doesn't always work.  Your PC can die smack dab in the middle and it all fizzles and dies.

I have also had success bringing life to a pre-existing clan, House Salarr, which (at the time) had a non-existant playerbase.  I started a PC when he was 17 years old (Khann D'arden) and joined Salarr as a beginning merchant.

He ended up retiring at 55, head of almost all operations and probably being one of the largest world-players there's been because of it.  Estates were built, plots were set in motion, clans were made to support the play a simple plan put into motion.  It just takes dedication and hard work.

To give another, more recent, example - there has been an addition in the game (as noted in the Updates) that a northern branch of the T'zai-Byn has opened.  This didn't simply come about because the Imms figured it was 'about time' or that it was a good idea.

Taking a leadership role, I made a plan that I thought made IC sense, was realistic and would be a fair challenge.  Over the course of about 10 RL months, I made contacts, RP'd, handled political and physical challenges and finally, through many hours, days and months of hard work and planning, saw my goal achieved.

Would there have been a northern compound if I hadn't pushed forward with the idea and tried my best to make it happen, possibly.  But this is exactly the 'kind' of result you can achieve in a pre-existing clan to make your mark and be remembered when all is said and done.

There is room to stretch in both categories, new and old.  You can make your mark on the MUD in both catgeories and it follows the same path.  Hard work, planning, goal setting and a little bit of luck.

More than my two cents, but hey - I've got a whole pocket full of change.

-LoD

Angela Christine

  • Posts: 6595
Re: Clans - New vs. Old
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2003, 10:10:55 AM »
Quote from: "LoD (Snarf)"

I have been involved in a quite a few clans in my time and, contrary to AC's comments regarding an inabiliy to shape the world via pre-established clan characters, it is possible to make an impact upon the world with EITHER route.


I just want to be clear that I wasn't saying it is easier to make an impact with a home-brewed clan, just that the perception exists, especially for new players.  If you join an existing clan it seems like it will take months to get any real power (although this varies wildly) but if you make up your own clan you can be the leader (chief, son of the chief, headman, etc.) right from day one.  Of course it will be months or years before your clan has any real power in the world, if they ever do, but you get to be the big fish in your own tiny pond from the get go.  

I think your (LoD's) post has a lot of good points.  You should submit it to the RP documentation section, because a lot of people find themselves in leadership roles unexpectedly (sometimes all it takes is not dieing for a few months, while all your PC superiors perish).  I think being a leader is an area that lots of people could use some help with, but it's not the sort of thing I'd feel comfortable e-mailing a newbie helper with . . .  by definition if you are a leader you're not a newbie, right?  It would just feel silly to me.

Anyway, good post.

AC
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

LoD (Snarf)

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Comments on Leading a Clan.
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2003, 12:35:23 PM »
I'll say it again, leading is rough work.

I figured some PC leaders (and their followers) could use some insight into just what goes on in the role of a leader.  Now I am simply speaking from experience and certainly not implying that my way is the 'right way' or the 'best way' by any means, but it has worked for me.

It starts when you log on, every day.

From the moment you log on, You feel a foreign presence contact your mind.  Someone always needs something: a few moments of your time, a decision about a job, a question about House policies, informing you one of your men is in jail, wanting to quit the House, wanting to get paid, asking to join up with the House.

And that's in the first 10 minutes.  If you collect all of these requests and add them together, you've just committed yourself (if you're lucky) to about 30 mins - 1 hour of simply handling other people's tasks.  This goes on all day long, so be ready for it.   There's no way around it, that is your job as the leader of the clan - a slave to your people.

I know that many people think that all you do is sit around in taverns, yucking it up with clients or nobles or smoking spice in a back den somewhere, but it's all part and partial to the leading gig.  People have no idea how much work it involves micro-managing a clan of players whom all want to have fun and need -you- to provide it for them.  While most leaders don't mind, the general populace should be aware at how time consuming dealing with it can be.

Keeping your followers active.

One of the main things you must do to have a happy clan is keep them active.  Now, this doesn't mean you have to have an RPT every single day and create large-scale plots and events.  It just means that your people need to have a sense of direction and purpose.  They can only stand guard at a gate or by your side for so many hours without losing their minds and wondering what the hell they are doing when their friends are telling them on ICQ how they just escaped a horde of gith and found a cool ass cave in the desert.

Keep your men busy.  Use anything that you can to give them purpose and even make up small jobs that really don't mean anything.  If there are 3-5 of them around, have them go outside and do something, anything.  They don't need to know why it's important, you're the boss.  Tell them that we need five gith skulls.  That ought to keep them busy.  Have them run to Red Storm and pick up a few jugs of spiced ale for a future meeting or to head north to Luir's to see what's going on of late and continue developing relations with their people.

It does seem like a lot, but it's why players play the game.  They want to build a story and have a good time.  Help them reach that goal.  They may die, yes, but if you are a high-level leader in your clan, I highly doubt that you're going anywhere soon and fresh meat pop up all the time in their stock leggings, pack and torch waiting for work.

Reward your followers with praise and coin.

If you want to be a clan leader for long, you'd better learn how to keep players happy.  That is one of the single most important things about being a leader - knowing what players want and giving them enough to stay with you.

The best system I came up with is to reward them whenever you see them and they complete a task, in addition to a monthly wage.  You may have the set the wage low if you have a lot of employees, but the fact that they will receive money in their pocket that DAY instead of waiting for some kind of monthly salary will have them logging in much more frequently for a chance at some coin.

If your guards are with you when you travel somewhere to make a little 'sid with some sales, gives them a small cut.  Buy them some drinks when you're in the tavern.  Allow them some time to look for 'cool eq' when you're riding through a village or town they rarely get to see.  Reward them when they do things well and, in return, they will begin to look for ways to serve you instead of waiting for you to tell them.

Provide them with a good set of policies and rules that empower them to do more than spar, spar, spar all day long.  Give them a schedule of things to do and guidelines with which to do them so that you're both comfortable they won't run willy nilly into the sands to their death.  If you don't set up these guidelines, people WILL die.  They'll do it even if you DO set up good policies - I used to call it Kohmar disease when I played Khann.

I'd JUST finish buying armor, weapons, food, water and clothing for my new hire.  Went over the rules and everything and the first thing they do when I'm not around is walk straight out the damn gate and die to krath-knows-what out in the desert.  Wasted MY time and MY money.  That happens over and over and over and over to -any- employer.  Those of you whom are employees wanting to know why you may be paid so slowly - these are exactly the type of bad apples that make we leaders wary of handing out much at all.

The burden, and responsibility, of command.

You are responsible for EVERYTHING.  If a player isn't have fun.  Your fault.  If an Imm hasn't made that special order yet, your fault.  If your employee decided that it'd be fun to storm into the Trader's Inn and slaughter the single most powerful noble lord in all of the city because they were bored and thought it be 'k00l' - guess what?  It's all your fault and you may be executed or punished because of the actions of another player you had NO CONTROL OVER.

This can be the single most frustrating thing about being a leader is the dreaded contact from a noble, templar or other such authority figure demanding you come speak with them about the actions of one of your employees.  I know that ICly they want to bring the matter to your attention and ask why it has occurred.  Someone's head has to roll.  It should NOT be that of the employer, however, as they have about as much control over the players and their ultimate decisions as you have over what shirt they're wearing in RL.

In addition to this, you are responsible when people don't get paid because they log in at odd times or infrequently.  You are responsible when they aren't having as much fun as they thought they would or when they get bored or when they can't figure out for themselves how to have a good time.  You are always responsible and it hangs like a weight over your head to provide these things to people in your clan.

Setting goals and planning.

So, you've recruited a group of people.  They train themselves and a few of them have actually managed to stay alive for more than 2 RL weeks and you want to actually use them now.  As a leader, you need to take a look at your position and see what you want, and can, accomplish.  Take a large long-term goal and chop it up into little sections, then set your men and yourself in motion on a timeline you'd like to see.  Email the Imm Staff on your project and what you plan to do so they can jump in and help/hinder you along the way as they see fit within the confines of the game world.

Examples.

Goal: Free the dwarven slaves of the southern obsidian mines.

Step 1: Gather dwarves loyal to my cause.  Train them. (ongoing)
Step 2: Establish a place of operations from which to train.
Step 3: Gather money to place bribes, hire men and get information.
Step 4: Case the mines, the guard rotations, the distance from the city.
Step 5: Meet with different nomadic tribes, asking for help.
Step 6: Meet with members of the target's enemies, asking for help.
Step 7: Meet with friends and neighbors, asking for help.
Step 8: Form a plan of attack that won't be reported to the enemy.
Step 9: Meet and gather the support of other dwarven tribes.
Step 10: Formalize the plan of attack and gather your forces.
Step 11: Set a date for the RPT, inform the Imm Staff.
Step 12: Let the RPT take its course.

Now, some of these steps may only take a few minutes while others will take RL months to handle properly.  This will create a LOT of RP and direction toward a clan and its followers that gives it a drive and a reason for being.  The men know the cause, they know what to do, they know why and the leader gives them the tasks they need to accomplish.  You must also stay on top of everything and keep driven.  Most importantly you must not DIE because if you do - almost all of your goals and planning fall apart as your employees die and leave the organization.

I could write all day about the trials and tribulations involved with being a clan leader, but I doubt anyone would want to spend the time.

Being a leader is DAMN hard work.  You need to be online, attentive, diplomatic, considerate, understanding, firm, harsh, deceptive, manipulative, cunning, quick and fair all at the same time.  It's not a job that anyone can do.  Anything worthwhile takes time, so just put one foot in front of the other and keep things moving.

-LoD

PS - AC, thanks for clarifying your point.  I probably will write something up regarding clan and OOC leadership on the MUD. [/quote]

Hot_Dancer

  • Posts: 1573
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2003, 02:14:28 PM »
*rofls* Dude, you forgot
"Keeping Clan Members -Alive-"
Cause you're always going to run into some lone PK hunter type who has nothing better to do than try to undercut your damned clan by killing all your newbies in your off time.  All day, all the time because the dumbshit
never developed his character for shit and has nothing better to do.
Anonymous:  I don't get why magickers are so amazingly powerful in Arm.

Anonymous:  I mean... the concept of making one class completely dominating, and able to crush any other class after 5 days of power-playing, seems ridiculous to me.

Dan

  • Posts: 2332
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2003, 03:04:58 PM »
I know -exactly- what you mean!
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Quo

  • Posts: 98
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2004, 02:06:37 PM »
Thanks to Krath for bringing LoD's terrific posts back to attention.
Please, before it sinks into the depths of the board again ... can we have this archived?
code]
           .::7777::-.
          /:'////' `::>/|/
       .',  ||||   `/( e\
   -==~-'`-Xm````-mr' `-_\    Join the Save the Gurth campaign! [/code]

Krath

  • Posts: 2328
Whaaaaaat?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2004, 02:09:21 PM »
Quote from: "Quo"
Thanks to Krath for bringing LoD's terrific posts back to attention.
Please, before it sinks into the depths of the board again ... can we have this archived?


I second this Motion. Maybe Change the Title to Leadership or make a help file
or something about it as well.
But it's cool, I can rap my skills, too
Cuz I rise above the rest like
'mon un whira [IC info removed]'