Author Topic: I know I'm going to get flames for this one.  (Read 11621 times)

Jarod550

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I know I'm going to get flames for this one.
« on: September 15, 2005, 02:04:34 AM »
This is a repost from ask the staff because I wasn't aware players couldn't chime in on that forum, so below is a copy of the original.

Original--------------------------------------

Hello Folks,

One thing that sorta ticks me off about this game is the whole Karma deal.  I understand according to help karma, that karma isn't an end in itself blah blah...  Whatever.  However after playing quite a few characters now, and personally hating elves and half elves (personal opinion, sorry if I piss someone off)  I end up playing a human a lot.  And I think that too many of the selectable races and guilds are karma required and karma apparently is way too hard to come by.. My pc's have been members of Borsail, Byn, Salarr, Kadius and a few other smaller groups and have been played for (I'm talking my personal time, not game character time) weeks sometimes.  To no avail.  If I've received karma I've not received enough to get anything new and I think that's sorta (pardon my french) A crock.

It (In my opinion again) appears that this game is designed around powergamers, not skillmax but powergamers, those who can devote 10 hours a day to playing a video game, which isn't me.. I've only personally met 4 half giants 2 muls and 2 magickers, possibly have met more but didn't know it.  I feel that Karma is TOO hard to gain.  And it's compounded by the fact that you NEVER know you have it till your character bites it.

I can see the point behind it to an extent.  Say for instance, Jarod is a ranger human, and Jarod plays for however long and is given karma and is told, Jarod then goes and kills himself against some incredibly hard creature just so he can restart another character...

But I hardly doubt that you should NEVER tell us how much we have or don't have because then you never know if you're doing well IG.  I've for instance on one of my characters had various players let me know that I was fun to play with and so and so, but I guess I've never caught the staff's eye.

So I guess my question is this.  If you're a normal guy who doesn't have 10 hours a day to play your character "hoping" to find an immortal who is decent enough to give you some karma, is there a chance in hell of every playing a special character?  EVER?

It's 2am almost as of this posting and I was thinking about this as I played another game waiting for another just mediocre character to be approved and born into the game world.

ALSO before you folks chime up and say "submit a special application" I'll have you know that I have now "twice" and I get the canned responce, "you need to join a few houses and get more info about the game in general" or something to that effect. Which I have done, time and time again and still I guess, never receieved any attention to my high caliber of roleplay potential... heh.  Sorry little tooting my own horn there.

If you have played in a house for 3 weeks of real time, no matter how much time you spend on each time, you would have had to of gotten noticed SOMEWHERE.

So that leaves me to believe there is only one other reason I'm stuck playing the kindergarten races and guilds.  My rp must suck in the staff's eyes.  If that's the case it might be nice to have the staff actually pay attention to the REVIEW command in game that's been on for 5 characters or so now.  And actually tell me what the hell I'm doing wrong.  I have been playing this game for some time now and I feel that it's not so much your rp ability that the staff is looking at, but just seeing how long you'll stick around to make sure you're hooked and addicted and if that's the case, well in my opinion, it's BS.


I dunno, I'm going to go and drink a pop, and hit the sack, maybe one of the staff will actually give me and email on one of my next 10 or 20 characters and tell me what the Fekk I'm doing wrong.

Goodbye and thanks for reading, leave your hate replies at the door.

Peace

Jarod

Tamarin

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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2005, 02:16:37 AM »
*knock knock*

I don't even know where to start with this one, dude...Like...wow.

I'll try and briefly tackly some of...this.

Quote
I end up playing a human a lot


You're not the only one.  I've had a bit of karma, including the option to play a race besides human, and time and again I've always come back to human.  I think if you asked a lot of the people with 5, 6, 7, 8 karma points who have the option to play muls and half-giants that they typically play humans more often than not.

Quote
And I think that too many of the selectable races and guilds are karma required and karma apparently is way too hard to come by.


Define 'way too hard'?  If by way too hard, you mean "not getting any karma because I've played nothing but lack-lustre, unimaginative clanned roles that didn't last more than a few IRL weeks", then ya.  It's hard.  It takes some people years and years (ie the difference between 2001 and 2003) to gain even a single point of karma.


Quote
To no avail. If I've received karma I've not received enough to get anything new and I think that's sorta (pardon my french) A crock.


I'd love to see one of your RP logs to judge this for myself.

Quote
It (In my opinion again) appears that this game is designed around powergamers, not skillmax but powergamers, those who can devote 10 hours a day to playing a video game, which isn't me


You are entitled to your opinion, though I suggest that with such a short period of time spent actually involved in this game that you really haven't observed a truthful picture of what actually goes on.

In reality, the game is designed around the world of Zalanthas.  There is ample documentation on this world if you navigate to the main page.


Quote
I can see the point behind it to an extent. Say for instance, Jarod is a ranger human, and Jarod plays for however long and is given karma and is told, Jarod then goes and kills himself against some incredibly hard creature just so he can restart another character...


Bingo.

Quote
But I hardly doubt that you should NEVER tell us how much we have or don't have because then you never know if you're doing well IG.


First of all, how would you know if you've never received any karma?  
Second of all: help review
Third of all: you can email the mud account to get your account notes and see how well you're doing.
Fourth of all: when I did get my karma, I received a polite note from the staff telling me so.  And I could care less...I played my character at the time through to her death.

Quote
If you're a normal guy who doesn't have 10 hours a day to play your character "hoping" to find an immortal who is decent enough to give you some karma, is there a chance in hell of every playing a special character? EVER?


Sure, but you stil have to put in more than a few weeks or even a few months time.  This game has too many players that actually stick around, so that the staff don't have to risk giving special apps and karma to people who don't know the game world.

Quote
So that leaves me to believe there is only one other reason I'm stuck playing the kindergarten races and guilds. My rp must suck in the staff's eyes.


These "kindergarten" races and classes are the meat and potatoes of this game.  They are what 98% of all characters end up being.

And yes your RP may very well have sucked in the eyes of the staff.  You could always like...try to improve your RP instead of just assuming it's good.  Having the review command does not automatically mean you are going to get comments.  The staff are here on a voluntary basis, and they all have their individual projects to look after, rather than coddle a new player into a skilled puppetmaster.


I can't really think of anything else to say...can someone else chime in?
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Tamarin

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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2005, 02:22:37 AM »
Oh ya...since getting karma is not a goal here, you can't use it as a measuring stick to guage your level of rp.  Saying "what am I doing wrong?  I don't have any karma after 5 characters, so I am clearly doing something wrong" is ludicrous.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Jarod550

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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2005, 02:23:06 AM »
Quote from: "Tamarin"
*knock knock*



I'd love to see one of your RP logs to judge this for myself.



You know what, I might actually start posting them up, just to see what people think so I can tell what the hell I'm doing wrong.

Jarod

ps. I've had way more then 5 characters, I was just using that number as an example.  I don't mind playing games for long periods of time, but I don't want "how long" I've played to have an effect on how I'm judged.  Karma wise, it's like saying you can't let a genius build something because they haven't been trying long enough.

Tamarin

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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2005, 02:24:06 AM »
Ya do that.

Then you'll get reprimanded for sharing IC information.

Furthermore, there's a lot more that goes into handing out karma than just RP skills.  There are trust issues...consistency issues...knowlege issues...these simply aren't things that one can acquire in such a short period of time.  In fact, I think these things all probably count for more than RP when deciding who and who doesn't get karma.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

jstorrie

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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2005, 02:28:52 AM »
I play a few hours every couple of days. That is, unless I know there's an RPT coming up, I'm online for maybe two hours a day for three or four days out of a week. That doesn't sound like powergaming to me, I think?

And I have karma. I refute you thus!

Jarod550

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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2005, 02:29:59 AM »
Quote from: "Tamarin"

Furthermore, there's a lot more that goes into handing out karma than just RP skills.  There are trust issues...consistency issues...knowlege issues...these simply aren't things that one can acquire in such a short period of time.  In fact, I think these things all probably count for more than RP when deciding who and who doesn't get karma.


I know nothing I say is going to influence the way they do anything with the game.  But I think that all that stuff is easily gained besides trust, and come on, trust for a game, I'm playing a game, not protecting a bank.  "please give me your trust!" *eyeroll*

Tamarin

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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2005, 02:30:58 AM »
What jstorrie just goes to show that you are gravely misinformed.  I knew a player not too long ago that earned 2 points of karma in less than a year...She drove me nuts sometimes, but she was a consistent, reliable player.  And she didn't play hours and hours and hours and hours a day.  She was very mature and had a lot of respect for her colleagues.  This goes a long way.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Tamarin

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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2005, 02:33:12 AM »
Quote from: "Jarod550"
I know nothing I say is going to influence the way they do anything with the game.  But I think that all that stuff is easily gained besides trust, and come on, trust for a game, I'm playing a game, not protecting a bank.  "please give me your trust!" *eyeroll*


The fact that you don't respect that there are trust issues in this game is reason enough for me that you shouldn't get karma.  Yes it's a game, but it's a game we love.  It wouldn't be here the way it is if that trust didn't exist.

So take your rolling eyes somewhere else before I fucking stab them with my knife.

Welcome to armageddon.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Jarod550

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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2005, 02:33:43 AM »
Quote from: "Tamarin"
What jstorrie just goes to show that you are gravely misinformed.  I knew a player not too long ago that earned 2 points of karma in less than a year...She drove me nuts sometimes, but she was a consistent, reliable player.  And she didn't play hours and hours and hours and hours a day.  She was very mature and had a lot of respect for her colleagues.  This goes a long way.


Well that just answered one of my main questions, they rely on time as a factor I'm sure.  I haven't been playing even 6 months yet, hell I honestly don't remember when I first stepped in the game, but it seems forever ago.

I guess I'm just used to getting results in a reasonable amount of time....

Having to play for years before being recognized isn't a game, it's a job.

Jarod550

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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2005, 02:36:20 AM »
Quote from: "Tamarin"


So take your rolling eyes somewhere else before I fucking stab them with my knife.

Welcome to armageddon.


Yes, much maturity behind "I fucking stab them" I see...

Jarod

Tamarin

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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2005, 02:36:53 AM »
That is not at all what I said.  The staff didn't wake up one day and go "oh she's waited a year...let's give her karma".  There is no karma timer.  In the real world of adults, it actually takes time to build trust and observe behavior.  It is not something easily achieved in the span of six months or less.

Again, let me reiterate: the staff rely on time as a factor for dishing out karma only because it exists as a bi-product of the process of assessing a person's ability to play this game, including everything I've mentioned so far.  If you can't understand this, then there's no point continuing this discussion.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Rindan

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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2005, 02:37:10 AM »
Karma is fickle, pure and simple.  My absolute favorite character of all time was a human warrior.  This guy rocked the earth.  He was in half a dozen clans over the course of his very long life.  He fought in more then one war.  He had loyal friends and terrible enemies.  He had a life that spanned a solid 20+ IC years and over that time he grew and changed immensely.  He fell into a leadership position in a clan, and, if you don’t mind me tooting my own horn, did an awesome job at it.  His final death was awesome and involved an amazing escape that almost worked.  This guy is the character that I judge all of my characters against.  I was totally blown away by the fact that at the end of all of this, over a RL year later, I had the same karma as when I started.  A couple of character’s later I had a character that I barely tolerated, last less then a month, and I ended up retiring him.  He got karma.

The moral of the story?  There isn’t really a score card being kept.  The karma system is a very human.  A bunch of humans occasionally peek in on you and watch you play.  They get a feel for who you are and what they can expect from you.  Then they throw you a little karma if they are getting warm and fuzzy feelings.  It is a less then perfect system to be sure, but as is always pointed out, what is the alternative?  You express how much you dislike the current system, but what is it that would make the system better?

Now, as to your specific situation, let me say a few things.  First, I don’t know you, nor do I know how you play.  That said, I can suggest a few things.  First off, look at how your characters are dying.  You say that you have been in Borsail, Byn, Salarr, and Kadius.  Unless you were a hunter for the merchant houses, death is pretty hard to come by.  It happens, but it doesn’t happen all that often.  What is causing your character’s to die?  If each one has died because he has broken clan rules and gone off and did something stupid, that might very well be a reason why the staff is apprehensive about entrusting you with more (assuming that your lack of karma is deliberate and not just being overlooked).  Next, leadership gets noticed.  Yeah, leadership pretty much translates into ‘powergaming’ by throwing time at the game.  If you don’t have the time, don’t worry, just realize that things (karma included) will move slower.

Next, and this is just a personal guess of mine, do you think you are actually worth watching?  If I was a staff member and had a pile of things to do and could only watch a few players, being a human, I would tend to watch either the horrible and abusive players to slap them in line, or the interesting and creative players.  The guy wandering around in the desert mindlessly hunting probably would sit last on my list, as would the boring Byner that never talks.  I know that one of my character’s that did end up getting karma was probably very interesting to watch and probably provoked someone into watching him.

Most importantly though, before exploding on the board about how you have been dealt a great injustice, have you bothered to e-mail the MUD asking why you don’t have any karma?  A simple:

“Hey guys, I have been playing for a while and doing what I think is good work.  Despite this I don’t have any karma yet.  I was wondering if there is anything in particular that is holding me back or if you have any suggestions as to what I could do better.”

It is polite, to the point, and isn’t accusatory.  Your rant on the Ask the Staff board declaring injustice is probably is not going to result in a pile of karma magically appearing.  Emailing the above paragraph probably would have, or, in the very least, resulted in an explanation as to what is holding you back.  An e-mail like the above is going to either get responded with “Hey, we looked into your account and you are right, you have been doing good and you probably are due for some karma.  It has been added and will show up on your next character.”  Or “We have not given you karma yet because we are a little concerned about how you used your Borsail character to clean out the clan lockers and sell them to Salarr right in front of a guard NPC.”

Finally, I think you underestimate how many people have karma.  If someone feels bored, they can run a search for it, but a while back a staff member posted the karma levels for everyone online during a busy night.  More people had karma then not.  In fact, I think more people had the first level of karma then they did no karma.  Most people simply decide not to play karma classes.  Hell, my current character is about as mundane as they get, and I wouldn’t trade him for all the Drovians in the world.

Tamarin

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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2005, 02:40:59 AM »
Thanks Rindan.  You're a far better diplomat than I am.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Gaare

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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2005, 02:42:28 AM »
IMHO one should know gameworld (politics, game mechanics, cultures,  etc.. ), if s/he wants to have a more important part of it.  When you think you are ready and want to play a certain role, make a special application. That's not very hard after all, but a mail. To your question, even I did not play any karma required class or race yet, I do not think karma is very hard to get unless getting more karma is your aim of playing ARM.

A bit of detrailment about the part in your post how you get bored of certain races and guilds.

Quote from: "Mansa"
Also suggest making your character flawed. Just one simple flaw. When he drinks he passes out right away. Or when she drinks she takes off her clothes.

When they see a gith they shit their pants and freeze, or when they see a gith they scream and happen to be the first in the fight.

Something to make yourself flawed, to make yourself more 'human'. It will make your playing time seem more fun when you're trying to stay in character of a flawed character who is different than yourself.


Edit: After seeing Rindan's post.. He is smart, listen to him.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -MT

Jarod550

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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2005, 02:44:17 AM »
Quote from: "Rindan"
Karma is fickle, pure and simple.  My absolute favorite character of all time was a human warrior.  This guy rocked the earth.  He was in half a dozen clans over the course of his very long life.  He fought in more then one war.  He had loyal friends and terrible enemies.  He had a life that spanned a solid 20+ IC years and over that time he grew and changed immensely.  He fell into a leadership position in a clan, and, if you don’t mind me tooting my own horn, did an awesome job at it.  His final death was awesome and involved an amazing escape that almost worked.  This guy is the character that I judge all of my characters against.  I was totally blown away by the fact that at the end of all of this, over a RL year later, I had the same karma as when I started.  A couple of character’s later I had a character that I barely tolerated, last less then a month, and I ended up retiring him.  He got karma.

The moral of the story?  There isn’t really a score card being kept.  The karma system is a very human.  A bunch of humans occasionally peek in on you and watch you play.  They get a feel for who you are and what they can expect from you.  Then they throw you a little karma if they are getting warm and fuzzy feelings.  It is a less then perfect system to be sure, but as is always pointed out, what is the alternative?  You express how much you dislike the current system, but what is it that would make the system better?

Now, as to your specific situation, let me say a few things.  First, I don’t know you, nor do I know how you play.  That said, I can suggest a few things.  First off, look at how your characters are dying.  You say that you have been in Borsail, Byn, Salarr, and Kadius.  Unless you were a hunter for the merchant houses, death is pretty hard to come by.  It happens, but it doesn’t happen all that often.  What is causing your character’s to die?  If each one has died because he has broken clan rules and gone off and did something stupid, that might very well be a reason why the staff is apprehensive about entrusting you with more (assuming that your lack of karma is deliberate and not just being overlooked).  Next, leadership gets noticed.  Yeah, leadership pretty much translates into ‘powergaming’ by throwing time at the game.  If you don’t have the time, don’t worry, just realize that things (karma included) will move slower.

Next, and this is just a personal guess of mine, do you think you are actually worth watching?  If I was a staff member and had a pile of things to do and could only watch a few players, being a human, I would tend to watch either the horrible and abusive players to slap them in line, or the interesting and creative players.  The guy wandering around in the desert mindlessly hunting probably would sit last on my list, as would the boring Byner that never talks.  I know that one of my character’s that did end up getting karma was probably very interesting to watch and probably provoked someone into watching him.

Most importantly though, before exploding on the board about how you have been dealt a great injustice, have you bothered to e-mail the MUD asking why you don’t have any karma?  A simple:

“Hey guys, I have been playing for a while and doing what I think is good work.  Despite this I don’t have any karma yet.  I was wondering if there is anything in particular that is holding me back or if you have any suggestions as to what I could do better.”

It is polite, to the point, and isn’t accusatory.  Your rant on the Ask the Staff board declaring injustice is probably is not going to result in a pile of karma magically appearing.  Emailing the above paragraph probably would have, or, in the very least, resulted in an explanation as to what is holding you back.  An e-mail like the above is going to either get responded with “Hey, we looked into your account and you are right, you have been doing good and you probably are due for some karma.  It has been added and will show up on your next character.”  Or “We have not given you karma yet because we are a little considered about how you used your Borsail character to clean out the clan lockers and sell them to Salarr right in front of a guard NPC.”

Finally, I think you underestimate how many people have karma.  If someone feels bored, they can run a search for it, but a while back a staff member posted the karma levels for everyone online during a busy night.  More people had karma then not.  In fact, I think more people had the first level of karma then they did no karma.  Most people simply decide not to play karma classes.  Hell, my current character is about as mundane as they get, and I wouldn’t trade him for all the Drovians in the world.


Okay, that post made me aware of more then Tamarins where he/she just tore apart everything I said.  I was actually unaware you could get a "report card" on your playing by emailing mud so I'll do that.  In fact right after I hit submit.

However, I wasn't putting the post and expecting Karma, I just figured if I haven't gotten it yet after my best attempts, frankly fuck it.

But that's my piece I can't really argue what you've posted I guess.

Thanks and peace

Jarod

Jarod550

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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2005, 02:46:12 AM »
Quote from: "Gaare"
IMHO one should know gameworld (politics, game mechanics, cultures,  etc.. ), if s/he wants to have a more important part of it.  When you think you are ready and want to play a certain role, make a special application. That's not very hard after all, but a mail. To your question, even I did not play any karma required class or race yet, I do not think karma is very hard to get unless getting more karma is your aim of playing ARM.

A bit of detrailment about the part in your post how you get bored of certain races and guilds.




Not my aim in arm, and if the majority of these people who have karma aren't using it, I would probably fall right in line with them anyways.  I just didn't understand, so I figured I would bitch a little, simply put.

Jarod

Tamarin

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« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2005, 02:48:23 AM »
Jarod, I'm sorry if I came off as a harpy.  Wasn't my intention at all.

What I will say is that you probably should take a "fuck it" attitude to karma.  If you just forget that it even exists, then you'll probably start running into some wicked characters that would make you cry if they got smoked by a defiler.  And when they finally do...lo and behold, you've got karma.

PS - It's he, not she.  Though I am glad you at least put an option...
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Jarod550

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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2005, 02:55:50 AM »
Quote from: "Gaare"
IMHO one should know gameworld (politics, game mechanics, cultures,  etc.. ), if s/he wants to have a more important part of it.  When you think you are ready and want to play a certain role, make a special application. That's not very hard after all, but a mail. To your question, even I did not play any karma required class or race yet, I do not think karma is very hard to get unless getting more karma is your aim of playing ARM.

A bit of detrailment about the part in your post how you get bored of certain races and guilds.



Oh and to answer the part about the special application, I think I pissed of Naiona or something cause I've sent two and gotten slapped down on both of them with a canned e-mail responce, I took two swipes at being a merchant and just couldn't take it.  So I devised clever ways to make them die, I think that might have pissed of the staff, My best bet may be to just have my account deleted and start fresh with a new one and new e-mail ect.

Peace,

Jarod

amoeba

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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2005, 03:40:24 AM »
Quote from: "Jarod550"
Oh and to answer the part about the special application, I think I pissed of Naiona or something cause I've sent two and gotten slapped down on both of them with a canned e-mail responce, I took two swipes at being a merchant and just couldn't take it.  So I devised clever ways to make them die, I think that might have pissed of the staff, My best bet may be to just have my account deleted and start fresh with a new one and new e-mail ect.

Peace,

Jarod


First, I never saw deleting an account as a solution to much.  You are still the same person, the staff can tell just as easily thats it's you. Not much to be gained.  

On to the other parts of your post(s).  There are a lot of well written threads about karma on the gdb, one really good one not that long ago. I would recommend you read them, they may prove insightfull.  

One of the problems I have seen is a misperception about how you are viewed by the staff.  Take for instance the recent post in ask the staff by someone (pardon me for paraphrasing) stating that she thought the IMMs hated her because of an action taken towards her character.  The response from the staff was quite the opposite.  Guessing as to what is in the head of those on the other side will only drive you crazy.  If you want to know how well you are doing just ask. -politely-  

For the longest time I was under the impression that karma was automaticlly handed if you did a good job, and the fact that I didn't get some for quite sometime led me to believe that I was doing a poor job of whatever it took to get karma.  That may or may not have been true, but eventually I did get some karma, but it was only after asking how well I had done in a couple of roles.  I didn't see an automagick bump in my karma.

Patience and communication will get you there. As an aside btw, if you found merchant dull, you may find yourself less than enchanted with some of the karma classes.  Perception is different than reality.
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Jherlen

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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2005, 06:00:53 AM »
It's quite simply this:

Play your character as more than a sum of race + guild + stats + skillpoints. Play them as an actual person with an actual personality. If you can't handle playing a mundane role realistically, abiding by whatever restrictions may be placed on your pc, I wouldn't expect karma.

Some people are brave and fearless to the point of stupidity, but most in Zalanthas would rather live. If your PCs are commonly doing things that make their comrades shake their heads incredulously, you may want to examine the thought process with which you're having your characters make decisions. Like Rindan said, examine the ways your PCs are dying and whether the deaths were easily avoidable, realistic for your PC, and not simply intentional ways of killing off a character.

My advice is to make another character and join a clan and actually be an integral, contributing part of it for an extended period of time. Clans aren't trading cards - most are hiring constantly, so it isn't any real achievement to say you've been recruited into Houses Q, X, Y and Z. Instead, make a character, join a House, and then try and get involved with some plots inside it, try and get your character promoted, and then focus on trying to stay alive for a while. Figure out your longest-lived character's lifespan to date and try to top it. One 20-day PC is going to get you a lot more attention than 20 1-day PCs would.

One of the reasons Armageddon is so engaging for people who really want an intense roleplaying environment is because the setting and theme are so consistent and high responsibility roles are only given to those people who've proven they can be trusted to take a shot at them. You're quick to discount the trust issue, but on the other end of things I would much rather see only trusted players gain karma roles than people who are just going to abuse them.

Yes, at the end of the day Armageddon is still just a game, but it isn't a game like Counterstrike or HacknSlashMUD #50979, it's one that both the staff and much of the players take very seriously. If you treat the game with respect and try and actually get in to the world, I think your characters will start becoming more real, live longer, amount to more, and possibly gain you karma. Otherwise there are several other MUDs out there that can be taken less seriously, and you might even find some more appealing than Armageddon.
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Anonymous

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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2005, 07:37:08 AM »
Quote from: "Jarod550"
Oh and to answer the part about the special application, I think I pissed of Naiona or something cause I've sent two and gotten slapped down on both of them with a canned e-mail responce,


I doubt you pissed her off - just she's busy with lots of special apps (which aren't a huge staff priority to begin with) and it was probably felt that you didn't have the experience yet to have a go at the roles you special apped. Don't sweat it. Keep playing.

Quote from: "Jarod550"

I took two swipes at being a merchant and just couldn't take it.  So I devised clever ways to make them die, I think that might have pissed of the staff, My best bet may be to just have my account deleted and start fresh with a new one and new e-mail ect.


I wouldn't bother with the account deletion. You're pretty much back to square one then and bad account notes (if indeed you do have any at all) are not insurmountable by any means. I started playing almost four years ago. My first characters were pretty awful and I received a few bad account notes for them - killing 'rinthers, etc. It took me a over six months before I received my first point of karma as I had begun by that time to understand the gameworld better and play a more realistic character. I'd about 4 karma after two years played and I've now got 7 karma. It takes time and effort - something you'll have to accept. I'm not a primetime player and I don't play long hours I'll mention though.

What I found worked for me was:

 :arrow: Play a realistic character - don't do things for OOC reasons because you got bored or wanted to stir things up just for OOC kicks. Can be hard sometimes. There will be periods when nothing is happening in the game and the tempation is there to try something out of the ordinary. Find a way to spice up your character's life in a realistic IC manner. That doesn't mean you can't take risks, do something daring, etc. just have a proper IC reason for it and not some half-assed OOC twisting of logic. I try to ask myself what would I do if I was in my character's position. Obviously my character won't always be me but it helps me inject a little self-preservation into a fantasy creation. If its not working out for you at all then retire the PC rather than do something nuts but try to give it a good shot before you do ask to retire.

 :arrow: Play responsibly - respect the gameworld and the way the Imms have laid down the way the game is to be played. Yes the code will allow you to get away with some odd things but that doesn't mean you should do it. Also, if you can't handle the so-called mundane roles responsibly the chances of you being trusted with a role more open to abuse are minimal.

 :arrow: Play in clans - personally I think that this helps you get noticed more easily as its no secret that clan Imms monitor the players in their clans. If you're doing a consistently good job you should get noticed. The keyword here is consistently - the player who does a great job when around other players but then descends into horrible twinkery when left on his own is not going to get karma probably. Additionally, I find the framework that clans give useful to me and it helps give my character realistic boundaries and provides goals for them to work towards other than building up a huge bank account or equipment list. This framework can in turn help you keep your character alive for longer. Longer lived PCs tend to get involved in more things as they find themselves in plots which then leads to more exposure for you. I realise that many players have gotten karma for playing indy characters - I'm just saying what worked for me.

 :arrow: Update your clan Imms - it never hurts to send an email to your clan Imms with what your character is doing and why, what their plans are, etc. This can lead to a lot less confusion if you suddenly up and do something out of the ordinary which you have been RPing towards but they may not have been aware of. How often you update is up to you but if you're in any position of authority once a week at the minimum is expected I believe.

 :arrow: Play a position of authority - after you've gotten a bit of experience in the game I'd recommend trying a position of authority if you think you can handle the role. You'll be in direct contact with the Imms regularly and you'll be able to prove that you are a trustworthy person.

 :arrow: Think - its a nice command. I recommend using it where possible. It fleshes out your thoughts and it makes it easier for Imms to understand why you're doing what you're doing.

 :arrow: Be patient - it'll take time, that much I guarantee you. If you're somebody who demands quick results you'll wind up frustrated. If you play to get karma you'll drive yourself mad.

 :arrow: Don't be needy - I've no idea how the staff feel about this but I'd imagine that if I was in there position I wouldn't be falling over myself to give karma to the player who is always very needy about wanting stat increases, swopping skills, special apping all the time, complaining about this and that, etc. My advice is just play and enjoy the game. Stats, skills, special apps are all secondary things.

Anyway, all imho... ignore if you want.

Tarx

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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2005, 10:59:52 AM »
I got karma on one character.  Not the long lived one I had that lived for quite a few months, but the one just before that one.  I forget what he even did, but it made me laugh, let me tell ya.

I don't care much about karma.  I have enough self confidence to believe that if I play well, read a lot about the game, and don't piss off the imm folks by doing stupid stuff, I can do what I want, either through a special app or whatever.
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Qetesh

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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2005, 11:24:24 AM »
Alright, First thing I've noticed in reading all this was that you are bored with the basic guilds and races. My question is, are you really bored or are just that much more interested in the other ones, that you haven't really given them a steady try? And what I mean by that is written up a few characters that would -keep- you interested.

If you haven't, try to put all the Muls, Magickers and D-elfs out of your mind and come up with concept with one of the basic roles that you think you will -really- enjoy. Then just play the role out. If you are playing a character for the purpose of the staff watching then you are cheating yourself two fold. First, there is no guarantee we are watching and second, you probably are not enjoying the role and it's going to show through your RP. We always see the very best RP from people that -love- the role they play.

Now  to pick apart your original post Piece by piece.

Quote from: "orginal poster"

My pc's have been members of Borsail, Byn, Salarr, Kadius and a few other smaller groups and have been played for (I'm talking my personal time, not game character time) weeks sometimes. To no avail. If I've received karma I've not received enough to get anything new and I think that's sorta (pardon my french) A crock.


You have played these roles, Ok. Have you done anything in these roles? Have you lasted in them for any significant period of time? Have you even enjoyed them? You can spend a week in every clan known in the game, but that does not mean experience in the clan nor does that mean that you will be looked at. I couldn't tell you half the names of the underlings in my clans. They come in, they stay a week, they die. The ones I do notice are those who -do- things with their PC's (ie: are self motivating, show exceptional rp, make the clan a fun place to play for themselves and others). The only things being in a clan does for you are that it gives you a singular place to ask questions, make inquires and gives you a central group to interact with. Clans are not the Karma gateway.  

Quote from: "orginal poster"

It (In my opinion again) appears that this game is designed around powergamers, not skillmax but powergamers, those who can devote 10 hours a day to playing a video game, which isn't me.. I've only personally met 4 half giants 2 muls and 2 magickers, possibly have met more but didn't know it. I feel that Karma is TOO hard to gain. And it's compounded by the fact that you NEVER know you have it till your character bites it.

So I guess my question is this. If you're a normal guy who doesn't have 10 hours a day to play your character "hoping" to find an immortal who is decent enough to give you some karma, is there a chance in hell of every playing a special character? EVER?
 


The reason why you will never know it until your PC dies is because we want you to -enjoy- your role. Again, if you are playing a role just in the hopes that it will give you Karma, you are playing for the wrong reason. As for powergamers within time played, No.. It's not the quantity of time you spend playing, it is the quality of the RP you put fourth. In some roles a good deal of playtime does help, especially leadership roles, but that comes with the responsibility of taking on that role and is not a mandatory flag for "karma worthy"
 
Quote from: "orginal poster"

ALSO before you folks chime up and say "submit a special application" I'll have you know that I have now "twice" and I get the canned response, "you need to join a few houses and get more info about the game in general" or something to that effect. Which I have done, time and time again and still I guess, never received any attention to my high caliber of roleplay potential... heh. Sorry little tooting my own horn there.


A few things here, If you have been rejected for a special app a couple times you may want to ask the staff to send you your account notes. Sometimes those have insight as to what you are doing well or not so well.

And for special apps, what are you asking for? If you have 0 karma and have been playing the mud for less than a year and have no account notes, well, no.. we might not give you a magicker or mul. (Disclaimer here is that I am NOT Naiona and don't really have any say in why she does or does not accept people for special apps) [/size] If you are asking for a d-elf.. well, maybe if you've no comments against you. Be realistic in what you ask for and be realistic about what your true game world experience is.  One of the reasons why we have levels of Karma races is because we want those who play those levels of things to really -know- how the world works.  Some of those High-end Karma roles are mysterious and intriguing, but truth be told, it's not the role that is that way, the role is just a set of skills. It is the player behind that role. Because those are the very -best- players in the game that have consistently shown it over and over again and they have the knowledge and background to take those roles and make something extraordinary with them.

Another reason that you "eyerolled" in a later post is trust. And trust is the most important factor in giving Karma. Yes, it is just a game, but the reason it is such a -good- game and the reason you like it so much is because of the serious responsibility the staff places on the players to play a realistic character, rewarded by the Karma system. You could just go play Hack n' Slash if you wanted to play an ordinary game. You could play a game where people break character to talk about the football game.. But you don't, you play here for the intensive RP and what I like to call the moving novel.  It wouldn't be that way if we just passed out any role to anyone who wants it.  



Quote from: "orginal poster"

So that leaves me to believe there is only one other reason I'm stuck playing the kindergarten races and guilds. My rp must suck in the staff's eyes. If that's the case it might be nice to have the staff actually pay attention to the REVIEW command in game that's been on for 5 characters or so now. And actually tell me what the hell I'm doing wrong. I have been playing this game for some time now and I feel that it's not so much your rp ability that the staff is looking at, but just seeing how long you'll stick around to make sure you're hooked and addicted and if that's the case, well in my opinion, it's BS.


I'm going to take part as mostly frustration and impatiens. As I have said on a past thread, (that I will string up here cause I spent a day writing the post) if you feel you have been overlooked and have superior RP skillz, email the staff to ask whats up. Explain that you feel a little neglected and would like to know what you can do to find out if your play is up to par. You are not a special little snowflake. There are some I don't know 200 or more active players we have to look at and only maybe 12-15 of us active. We -may- have missed you.

As for kindergarten roles, I have level 50 karma and can play a swirling vortex of clouds if I want. You know what I like to play? Human Rangers, best role in the game as far as I am concerned. Many of our big Karma folks actually enjoy those Kindergarten rolls a hell of a lot more than the Karma ones.

Also, this topic was just done to death less than a month ago.  Lets try to close this down if we can.
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Sanvean

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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2005, 11:44:18 AM »
If you think you're getting overlooked, you're welcome to write in and ask for your account notes.  When I go through the notes, I usually bump people up a point if it seems they're overdue for it and there's no recent negative notes on the account.  

You may well be getting overlooked; it does happen.  We don't know about it unless you ask us to take a look.

This is indeed a system created and maintained by humans, and we (the Overlords) can't really control things and mandate that every player must get x number of minutes being watched every time they log on.  Factors that can affect how often you get seen include the time of day you play, whether you're playing in a clan, which clan if so, where you're playing, etc.  The review flag seemed like a great idea when it was put in, but since when I log in 75% of the who list has it on, it becomes kinda meaningless and is (in my opinion) a failed experiment.  Setting up staff members to handle the independent players is another experiment; it remains to be seen how well it works.

As I have said a multitude of times before: yes, it's not a perfect system, but it's the best we've come up with so far.  

Karma is also not the aim of the game.  It's not a race to see how fast you can get to 8 karma.  Play the game for the sake of roleplaying, and existing in the world of Zalanthas.  Have fun.  The most karma-greedy you get, the less likely you are to accumulate it.  It's a Zen thing.

Things that I have noticed end up slowing karma:

Not taking the virtual world into account, doing unrealistic things
Spamming commands, and trying to skillmax
Not using the think command to let us know what and why your character is doing X
Using OOC too much, either in the game or out of it
Pissy letters to the account that make the staff feel like they don't want to deal with you.
Abusing the wish command
Abusing bugs
Breaking character
Going out of your way to grief other players in a way that does not make sense for your character

I know I've written at least 3 or 4 posts on this subject before.  I don't think things have changed that much, but increasingly I see an expectation that x amount of time, or bugs reported, or emails, or logs = karma.  This is not so.  It's just not.  If you're an ass, you may never get the karma you want.  Suck it up and deal, or move onto another game, imo.  If you're a person who wants to contribute to the game, demonstrate it, and don't do other things that harm the game, it will (eventually) come, although it will be undoubtedly be slower than you would like.