A Gentle Reminder Concerning Half Elves

[Naiona]

We've seen a recent spike in half-elf applications for characters recently.

I'd like to remind you all that half-elves are -not- just down on their luck people who have a slightly more difficult time in society.  There is outward, blatant racism and sometimes outright revulsion towards them from -every- quarter of society.  This is a basic and non-alterable fact of Armageddon roleplay.  

Please keep this racial mindset in your thoughts while playing a half-elf, and while interacting with them.

[Delirium]

Can I tag on to this thread to ask players of half-elves to also keep in mind the mental conflicts inherent in all half-elves and to consider how those might affect their character, given their background and upbringing?

It doesn't have to be obvious and the motivations driving them could be something no one quite guesses, but it should still keep in mind the basic fact that they are beings torn between two societies and accepted by neither.

Love and acceptance given to a half-elf are incredibly rare, and if a half-elf should, over time, begin to recieve this from one source or another, try to remember how this may affect them mentally.  Would they even accept this if it was offered?  Perhaps they're frightened of betrayal, or being used.  Perhaps they're convinced they're nothing unless they let other people use them, and try to be useful to gain some form of acceptance.  Perhaps they feel unworthy, and reject it.  Maybe they accept it, but develop a dependancy bordering on paranoia, always afraid of ruining what they have, or losing it.  Perhaps they identify more with elves, and try to fit in with them instead of accepting a position among humans.

The possibilities are widely varied, but please, don't forget to play a half-elf, not just a somewhat anti-social human.

[Rhyden]

Help decrease the half-elf population, have your elf or human spayed or neutered.

[/derailment]

I've seen lots of half-elves recently and I've seen many going around as they please. I think the best way to solve this is to remember how many people hate half-elves which most likely means your character will too. If there's a theft, blame the half-elf, somebody stole your kank? Blame that half-elf. Tired and grumpy? That half-elf must have pissed you off. As well, half-elf players should understand that their characters are not accepted in most of Zalanthan society.

[joyofdiscord]

Also, one thing which has been mentioned before in past threads on the half-elf situation is the tendency of some players to have their half-elves hang out with each other and become good friends.  This might seem IC at first, since no one else will accept you, why not make friends with the ones who are just as badly off as you?

Personally, I think most half-elves should hate other half-elves just as much as or more than the rest of the population hates them.  One quote that stayed with me was: Half-elves don't want to be accepted by other half-elves.  They want to be accepted by humans (or elves).  If your half-elf is hanging out with a lot of half-elves, that just more draws attention to his filthy mixed blood.

In one of the past threads, people mentioned that it's tricky to harass half-elves because there were so many of them in their region, often being a majority of the PCs at the bar.  This provokes the idea to harass one breed with some other pretext.  He's smelly or dresses wrong or is ugly, or whatever.  This also gives the rest of the half-elves the chance to jump in and abuse the first half-elf, showing how -they- aren't like -that- breed, as well as hopefully gain the acceptance of the human provoking the abuse.  This seems like the best way for a half-elf PC to RP that situation, not jumping to the fellow breed's defense.

[Malifaxis]

I predict a sharp up-swing in anti half-elf racism.

[Revelations]

I say that's for the better.  :roll:

So, how might you deal with a half-elf who is a leader?

[amoeba]

Personally, I think most half-elves should hate other half-elves just as much as or more than the rest of the population hates them.  One quote that stayed with me was: Half-elves don't want to be accepted by other half-elves.  They want to be accepted by humans (or elves).  If your half-elf is hanging out with a lot of half-elves, that just more draws attention to his filthy mixed blood.

In one of the past threads, people mentioned that it's tricky to harass half-elves because there were so many of them in their region, often being a majority of the PCs at the bar.  This provokes the idea to harass one breed with some other pretext.  He's smelly or dresses wrong or is ugly, or whatever.  This also gives the rest of the half-elves the chance to jump in and abuse the first half-elf, showing how -they- aren't like -that- breed, as well as hopefully gain the acceptance of the human provoking the abuse.  This seems like the best way for a half-elf PC to RP that situation, not jumping to the fellow breed's defense.

This may be true in some cases, but not all.  It is thier struggle for identity that is paramount. With some they may feel closer to thier human side, with others thier elven. I do not think it unreasonable that some may feel slighted by both and seek only half-elves to commune with, feeling more of a kinship with that group.  The thing I would like to stress is the internal conflicts going on within  the half-elf.  Thier need to be independent verses thier need to belong.  Thier desire to be accepted verses the constant reminder that they are almost universially shuned.  How these confilcts exhibit themselves can (and should) vary widely.  The key here is to play it consistaint, and to keep in mind these motivating factors, however they outwardly exhibit themselves.

[Delirium]

people hate half-elves

There is a difference between not accepting somebody and hating somebody.  There is a huge range of reactions that could result from racism, and severe bigotry and hatred is at the far end of the scale.

The same problem crops up with people reacting to elves as well.  There is a difference between not trusting that skinny longneck, and hating them.  Mages even suffer from this black and white style roleplay, though hatred is definitely a viable reaction concerning them.  Remember, think grey.  Figure out what's motivating your character to act the way they do.

Half-elves are the annoying little brothers of Zalanthas, as AC once put it.  Somebody would be much more likely to just completely disregard a half-elf, than they would be to pay any attention to them.  

A little intolerance from others always makes playing a half-elf a bit more spicy, and that's a good thing; but, if you are playing a mixed blood properly, you will be beating your own self up -plenty-.

Certain realistically coded NPC reactions and anything the other player's do is just gravy on the taters after that.

This topic comes up a lot, heh:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13292
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10182
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12007
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11799
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11777

[Marauder Moe]

Just remember, everytime you see a half-elf it means somewhere, long ago, a dirty dirty elf raped some poor human woman, or something else equally perverse happened.

[Spoon]

It seems some people treat half-elves simply as watered down elves. Oh, they're half human, that means they're only try to swindle you half the time.

I guess most humans/elves would assume that a half-elves conception wasn't consentual. Someone of the other race raped someone, so it's disgusting. And if it was on purpose, then it's something that most elves and humans wouldn't understand. Hence they'd be disgusted either way.

*edit* Yeah, what Moe said. I spent far too long posting mine so I didn't see it appear....

[Rhyden]

So, how might you deal with a half-elf who is a leader?

It depends. I'm not sure if many houses actually make half-elves leaders let alone hire them. If there was one though, you could expect possible revolt. But if a half-elf did become a leader, it would probably be for a good reason. If a half-elf was a really good leadership figure, they might be able to gain some respect and possibly acquire something similar to 'human-status'. I've seen one half-elf leader before and they played it really well. There were some who would follow him straight away but some were more of a hassle when it came to orders.

[Dracul]

Generally it's that the MAX a half elf can become is sergeant.  Or respective ranks...and that's from winning their way there. But thats the most allowed for a breed.

[Rhyden]

I'm wondering about humans sticking up for half-elves. Is this very realistic? Would everybody else shun that human like they were a half-elf themself?

[Bestatte]

I think it would depend on the human, the half-elf, and their mutual affiliations (or lack thereof).

If a human is a recruit working under the authority of a sergeant breed, then it would be in his best interest to watch the breed's back when and as needed. And vice versa. Like him or not, he -is- your superior officer and if you want to live, or be promoted, or eat, you will be at least civil, if not gregarious.

There's no rule saying people have to be actively aggressive toward breeds, or become friends with them. Those would be the two extremes, in fact. But in a world where if you piss off the wrong person you die, it's probably not the best idea in the world to go overboard on either side of the scale.

[sacac]

Yea, some humans would defend the half elf if they were getting something for it. Like the half elf paying them and the human has honour or some secret bs like that.

[Manhattan]

Uh....what about muls or half-giants? How do they feel?

[Spoon]

I think you'd get the normal 'job-related-respect' as a half-elf in a position such as sergeant. You'd just get lot's of hushed rumours behind their back. People could easily distrust a half-elf but still do whatever they say, not having the balls to actually stand up to them because they're a hard-arse.

[Olafson]

I have to say that I have recently seen a real impact in the racial discrimination against half-elves.  Well done and keep it up!

[John]

We've seen a recent spike in half-elf applications for characters recently.

I'd like to remind you all that half-elves are -not- just down on their luck people who have a slightly more difficult time in society.  There is outward, blatant racism and sometimes outright revulsion towards them from -every- quarter of society.

Heh, that's why I play (visible) half-elves Nothing like being disliked by everyone to make Tuluk not appear so friendly. Well, that was the theory anyway. For it to work people have to dislike half-elves (although this dislike doesn't have to always be visible for every half-elf you meet, often I'll think things that will affect how I act towards them, but people won't realise).

So, how might you deal with a half-elf who is a leader?

Well your opinion of the organization has dropped quite a bit. And you're going to have trouble showing respect towards the leader (although I'm sure the leader will try to cure you of this, so you'll either have to learn how to hide your disrespect or begin to really dislike the House). Doing pranks against the leader will probably be an easy route. Heck, even planting stuff in the leader's belongings and saying they stole it from you if you want to get them in trouble. Or if they have something you want, claim they stole it from you, and refuse to back down. If over time you continue to get punished for what you do, I'm sure you'd come to hate the half-elf, so hiring an assassin probably wouldn't be too out there. You'll probably get in lots of trouble, but I can gurantee it'll be an interesting time while you do it.

And for half-elf leaders. Try to remember that half-elves are constantly seeking acceptance. I can see this showing itself by wanting acceptance by your worst underlings.

Remember, think grey.

Good point. this thread has a small suggestion in the same regard too.

[Cuusardo]

I'm wondering about humans sticking up for half-elves. Is this very realistic? Would everybody else shun that human like they were a half-elf themself?

I've seen humans fall in love with half-elves, and vice versa.  If you choose to do something like this openly with a character, prepare to be laughed at and ridiculed for it.

[Whira's Luck]

*long post ahead*

I think it's also important to note the distinctions between mistrust and never trust and hate.

The reasons to mistrust anyone are numerous... they might turn around and stab you in the back, one way or another. They might be trying to use you, to lure you into a trap, they might be trying to scam you, or do whatever it is you fear them doing which would place you at a disadvantage. A half-elf may be mistrusted because like an elf, they are not human. Their motivations may be similar but because they aren't human, they're not as 'predictable' to a human as another human might be.  So a human may be more apt to take on faith what another human says is the case than what a half-elf says is the case. However, a human would not necessarily trust a human who has proven themselves untrustworthy more than a half-elf they don't know. Perhaps a better way of saying it is that starting from a base of faith that a person isn't out to do you some sort of harm, a human would be more inclined to trust a human they didn't know than a half-elf they didn't know.

Elves, on the other hand, mistrust -anyone- not of their tribe. They don't have faith in other elves who aren't from their tribe, they don't have faith in half-elves not affiliated with their tribe (hypothetically, an elf might trust a half-elf of their tribe if the half-elf was an accepted member of their tribe -- assuming such a tribe existed -- more than anyone not of their tribe). They don't have faith in humans. For an elf to 'trust' -anyone- not of their tribe (and this goes toward anyone else, other elves included) they would test them. The measure of trust then accorded would be about equal to the 'tests' they had passed, in the mind of an elf.

Because of that, it's easier to deal with from a human perspective: humans tend to distrust half-elves. There is much prejudice that can reinforce this that doesn't need to be outright hatred. Some of it is as apparent as a merchant forcing a half-elf (or any other race) to pay for something upfront, as opposed to allowing humans to pay later on. It isn't that they 'hate' the half-elf. It simply means they don't trust them. The human may elect to show the same behavior with other humans who they 'mistrust'. I think it's easier to understand if you think of trust as being fairly passive. If someone repeatedly does things to mark themselves as trustworthy, it's not uncommon to trust them more. If someone does something to mark themselves as even more untrustworthy, that level drops.

Hatred and trust are two very different things. Hatred is an extreme measure of emotion denoting a lack of affection and possible hostility. Distrust is a measure of trustworthiness (i.e. reliability, responsibility, loyalty). It is quite possible for someone to hate someone and still trust them. It is also quite possible to like someone and not trust them farther than you could spit them. It is just that often, hatred is centered around distrust, whereas most people like the people that they trust, if for no other reason than they can rely on them.

Is it uncommon for humans to trust half-elves in the game? I would say yes, on a whole. While a half-elf may have won the trust of an individual human, because they're starting from a lower base of trust, they may not be as accepted among the rest of the humans that they meet.. in effect, their trust doesn't always carry over in their reputation and they have to 'start over' earning the trust of the next human who doesn't have trust in them.

However, trust may also be viewed differently by an organization that employs the half-elf: if a half-elf has proven themselves to be an asset for that organization, then the people who are employed by that organization (at least for long enough for them to start identifying with it) may sccept the half-elf as trustworthy without the half-elf needing to continually reinforce it to the individuals specifically.

The half-elf would, however, likely be remiss to believe that this would carry over to anyone -not- identifying with the organization in question. Therefore, depending on how strong the need for acceptance within the organization was, a recruit or neophyte to that specific organization may have trouble trusting the half-elf, even if their rank is higher. They may not directly disobey them, but they might go to a human in a similar rank to verify the orders given to them.. to 'make sure'. (That's just an example.) As time goes on, and they come to identify more strongly with the organization, and the half-elf is proved a reliable leader, they may come to lose that hesitation and develop trust in them.

Trust also has to do with societal and communal pressures, as well as one's own anecdotal experience. A  person with a bad history of dealing with half-elves i.e. they were raided by a half-elf while travelling; a half-elf thief was caught stealing food from their family, would likely use their anecdotal experience to lower their trust in half-elves furthur. They may not hate all half-elves, but a half-elf would be required to prove themselves much more than to someone else without this kind of history (if they were trying to make themselves appear or be accepted as trustworthy, that is).

A human who has had very -little- experience with half-elves, as in from an isolated community, might regard them with the same mistrust they place in other humans not of their community (similar to elves). A person who comes from a community in which half-elves are hated and harshly-treated (with outright hostility) would likely not only mistrust half-elves, but treat them with hostility themselves. On the other hand, someone who has dealt with half-elves on a regular basis and does already trust a few, might be more inclined to trust another one.

It's important for any human when dealing with half-elves, think about how and -why- they react to a half-elf the way they do.

Half-elves themselves need to figure out why they react to ANYONE the way they do. More likely than not, because of hostility and mistrust, they may mistrust others of the same race as those who have been hostile to them. Many may simply accept this as a fact of life and overcompensate to try to win the trust of everyone. This can lead to its own problems, such as getting sick of it and running off to be alone to unwind, or becoming anti-social for a while... overcompensating can be very draining to people.

I think here, it really hinges on the individual half-elf and why it's important to really come up with a good history for them as well as deciding how they interact with others. Which group(s) do they really want to be accepted by? Why? How do they act with people from that group who don't accept them? How do they act with people from other groups that don't accept them? It's also important to note that while they are dealing with others who mistrust them, half-elves will likely mistrust those they are dealing with as well. So it really is a pretty big hurdle.

Half-elves aren't just humans with pointy ears. Not only are they their own individual and non-widely accepted race, they come with their own sets of world-views and tempraments, usually shaped by their own lives, which bolster their inherent bi-polar behaviors.

Finally, I don't think there's a 'never trust' clause in mistrust. While your pc may never trust a half-elf, there are others who do trust half-elves, for different reasons. Not hall humans trust all other humans and many humans do not trust elves. However, individually, there may be exceptions to this depending on IC gameplay which had furthured that trust. This makes it very difficult to critique as opposed to a kank-riding elf.

** edited to add **

Would a human (or elf) stick up for a half-elf? I think that would depend, like others have said, on the relationships of the two in question. I think it's more likely that a human would stick up for a half-elf they were friends with -specifically- than to just stick up for a random half-elf. Would they be ridiculed for it? I'm not sure. I was going to say yes, but if it's acceptable among some that certain half-elves are trustworthy, then it's no less unlikely that they would stick-up for the half-elf than other humans they were friendly with. I think that would be a -far- likelier scenario than a human just randomly coming to the aid of an unknown half-elf. I think it also depends on the human in question and the half-elf in question, and their relationship to the person attempting to engage the abuse. To simplify: If a human disliked the human doing the abusing more than they disliked the half-elf, the human might get involved out of self-interest... their only interest in the matter might be to ridicule the other human as opposed to defend the half-elf.

Wow, this was an extremely long post, so if you've actually made it this far, I thank you for taking the time to read it.

[Revelations]

Kudos to that post.

[Swordsman]

In my opinion, far too many people (PCs) are far too trusting in this game. Just because a PC's a human or dwarf doesn't mean your PC can trust him/her. A human or dwarf (or any PC not having elven blood) can lie, steal, cheat, betray, and so on, just as much as any elf or half-elf. It's just that elves as a race are universally known for it.

Swordsman

[EvilRoeSlade]

So, how might you deal with a half-elf who is a leader?

Refuse to follow her.

[Whira's Luck]

In my opinion, far too many people (PCs) are far too trusting in this game. Just because a PC's a human or dwarf doesn't mean your PC can trust him/her. A human or dwarf (or any PC not having elven blood) can lie, steal, cheat, betray, and so on, just as much as any elf or half-elf. It's just that elves as a race are universally known for it.

Swordsman

I whole-heartedly concur. Also, just because someone is nice to you, doesn't make them trustworthy or indicate anything about their motivations and altruistic tendancies.