Author Topic: Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.  (Read 21909 times)

Hicksville Hoochie

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Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2004, 03:29:32 AM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
Quote
Whore as a bad thing = No excuse for it to be. No mutation makes being loose a bad thing for a woman, nothing about it is abnormal, she likes some sweaty knaking as much as the next guy or gal, and that's perfectly okay, because it's the norm.


 I can see how some might see having sex for money as being pathetic.

Male or female.

There's nothing in the docs that say people don't look down on prostitutes...male or female.

Just something I thought I'd point out.

Gender equality has nothing to do with people looking down on prostitution.


Uhhhh... What makes it pathetic?

If prostitution is looked down on, then why is a concubine ranked just below a Bastard noble, with Senior merchants, militia captain's ect... on the social ranking's list? They're simply high class prostitutes.

But think about it on this level...

Sex is an okay and accepted thing in life, no real bad stigma attached to it.  So why would it be bad to drop some sid on someone who is skilled at doing such? How could that possibly be a pathetic thing? Now if a Kadian was paying a flea-ridden rinthi for sex, I can understand the KADIAN being looked down upon, but not the whore themselves. Saying it's pathetic to get money for doing something normal is like saying it's pathetic to sell donuts, when everyone can pretty much make them on their own if they want.

I personally think Barzalene said it best when she referred to a prostitute as a man or woman who is simply a merchant who deals in non-essential goods.

Sandstorm Phoenix

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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2004, 06:26:23 AM »
I reserve the right for my PC to:

1) Say nasty things about people in power, especially if they are in more power than s/he is at the time.  If spreading a rumor that Miss Femme Fatale screwed her way to the top diminishes her accomplishments any, then by all means I will do it.  You think she'll agree to put her equal physical potential to the test by dueling me?   Right.   Hit 'em where it hurts.  If the word slut isn't supposed to hurt, then they got nothing to fear.  Blow it off and laugh. I'll find another word that does hurt.

2)  Snicker and laugh at any other character's sexual habits.  Out here in the real world, I snicker and laugh at the sexual accomplishments of one Don Juan friend of mine. . . as much as I snicker and laugh at the sexual misadventures of another friend. . . as much as they snicker and laugh at mine.   My character will most likey make fun of your character whether or not you have sex virtually or constantly, with your own race or with any willing object.  It isn't about Judeo-Christian ethics influencing me OOCly, it is about finding what makes another character uncomfortable and laughing about it.    What, you want me to be nice to you?

3)  Hold a double standard when it comes to his/her sexual habits.  You want to talk about realism, double standards are realistic.   I will continue to have them and glory in having them.  Yes, my character does and will think less of a whole lot of people.  Included on his/her list of "People I like to feel better than" are those who have public habits he finds humorous.   (see #2)


4)  Use words that affect the listener exactly how I want them to.   I don't care if "feck" "dang" and "pooie" become documented as the hardest cursewords in sirihish.   I will still call someone a fucking moron, scream damnit when I smash my thumb, and step in steaming piles of shit.   Words have power and certain words have more power than others.  Since we speak English and since sirihish doesn't really exist, I'll use the English words that will invoke the emotions I want them to.  





OOCly, I will continue to roll my eyes whenever I see a female in positions of influence (rarely ever is it true power, guys. . seriously) who got so because of a great main description and the willingness to netsex indiscriminately.   If it is so common and loved and accepted, then I want to see more men doing it.  . . then I'll -still- roll my eyes.

Cenghiz

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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2004, 06:51:19 AM »
Once I had a d-elf female character. She found out that another d-elf of another tribe was involved in a human..
So what did she feel? She was jealous. Another male, chose not me, but a filthy human!!! She felt her heart broken watching them kissing each other. But still, when people started making remarks of the situation in a human tavern, she wore her bone-knuckled gloves and offered a hand in beating the humans to the other d-elf. She was a d-elf, she was the high race, so no other filthy slow-moving humans had the right to mess with a d-elf even in a pit full of them.
So I believe, being jealous would be OK but making remarks? Why? To have it noticed that you're jealous?
Before a staff member corrects me, I will keep on believing that other people's choices are none of your business. You may decide to poison the female to have that muscular male for yourself. Same as poisoning someone to acquire his 'sids. Sex is just a pleasure you may want for yourself. If someone's doing something you won't; why to care? It's better to spare your time to wink at that cute guy/gal sitting at the next table.
I don't know why this discussion still didn't end.
quote="Ghost"]Despite the fact he is uglier than all of us, and he has a gay look attached to all over himself, and his being chubby (I love this word) Cenghiz still gets most of the girls in town. I have no damn idea how he does that.[/quote]

Ayashah

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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2004, 06:55:00 AM »
Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix"

OOCly, I will continue to roll my eyes whenever I see a female in positions of influence (rarely ever is it true power, guys. . seriously)


*blinks*

So, in your mind, no female in positions of influence rarely ever have power but are a figure head? (speaking for on ARM as I hope that's not your attitude in RL)

I could name quite a few past female PCs that had 'true' power. I can name some that arent obviously in 'positions of influence' that have 'true' power. I think, because the ratio of male players appears to be more than female players, that males appear in power more often than females.
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Sandstorm Phoenix (lazy)

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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2004, 08:21:41 AM »
No, Ayasha, sorry. . I should have put that parenthetical at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle.   I've -been- that female PC in true power.

What I meant was those who got where they are with a great main description and a willingness to bump'n'grind rarely end up in positions of true power.    Not never, just rarely.  I can think of one exception to that statement but usually the female PCs who have ended up with real power in the game, didn't rise to it in that fashion.

Ayashah

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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2004, 10:06:21 AM »
Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix (lazy)"
No, Ayasha, sorry. . I should have put that parenthetical at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle.   I've -been- that female PC in true power.

What I meant was those who got where they are with a great main description and a willingness to bump'n'grind rarely end up in positions of true power.    Not never, just rarely.  I can think of one exception to that statement but usually the female PCs who have ended up with real power in the game, didn't rise to it in that fashion.


Ahh, okay, that makes more sense. :)  I was boggled. heeh :)

I agree with that statement then :)
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My 2 sids

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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2004, 10:27:13 AM »
Ok, letís try some IC reasons prostitutes would be looked down upon:

 :arrow: Some jobs simply carry a stigma attached to them.  A byn sergeant might be extremely skilled in what they do; does that mean everyone in game is supposed to accept them as a note-worthy person?  Of coarse not!   Like all hunters/farmers/guards/etc. they use their body as their work.  They arenít making anything, they arenít using political means, just their body.  So Iíd say that people who donít accept physical and body type jobs would probably look down at prostitutes as well.  

 :arrow: If sex is so common as Quickstart would imply  :roll: , then sex is cheap.  There might highly talented people offering sex; but itís still offering nothing but a few minutes of entertainment.  Half the population probably doesnít have time for relaxing and playing around and the other half probably view it the same they would as a card player or maybe a bard (some cities hold bards in higher regard than other cities)

Why canít people ďsleep their way to the topĒ?  First, we need to understand who is on top of the society.  Money doesnít make status; bloodlines do.  Society in game is run by well-established families, not individuals.

 :arrow: Families are rich enough they have sex all the time.  Itís extremely hard to bribe a family member with just money; they already have money.

 :arrow: Families are very careful to separate sex into pleasure and business.  Business wise thatís why there are contract marriages where the family makes out.  Pleasure sex can happen without having to pay in ďfavorsĒ.  So it would be almost unheard of to mix pleasure sex into business.  Statistically, I think people need to remember concubines and catamites arenít that common; esp. for people who started out a typical whore.

 :arrow: Regardless of what is known to the public, families keep strict discipline over their own members.  Any relationship could potentially affect the family (like someone trying to manipulate a family member by sex) would be closely monitored by the family and probably ended rather quickly.
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My 2 sids

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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2004, 10:42:57 AM »
Does anyone else see the irony about saying that there are massive orgies all over the world (yes, Quickstart does make us a sex-mud) and yet people donít say ďhelloĒ because they donít trust each other?!  Tell me how it makes sense that people would trust perfect strangers to build relationships and sex encounters??
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Angela Christine

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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2004, 10:51:04 AM »
Prostitution?  Meh.  Selling a service for cash, no worse than any other independant mercenary type.  Yes, a prostitute that becomes a concubine isn't a prostitute any more, but a mercenenary that takes a job with the Borsail Wyverns isn't a merc any more either.  In both cases you are in the service of a single employer, and on your honour not to take any jobs on the side without express permission.  Some customers might be considered pitiful, if it is believed that higher prostitutes is the only way they can get a little loving.  Then again, some people would consider needing a bodyguard to be pitiful, since it shows that you are unable to protect yourself.  If you can make more money as a prostitute than you could at the Zalanthan equivilent of McDonalds, good for you, that's using your strengths.  Both prostitutes and mercenaries should plan for their futures though, because chances are that you won't be able to make top-dollar in that carreer for more than a few years.

 * * *

Porcelain skinned beauties?  Not a problem for me.  Maybe they don't go outside much, or maybe they have a skin mutation that blocks UV, preventing the skin from reacting with either burning or tanning -- that would be a pro-survival mutation.  Barring mutations, maintaining a "F-me" description should take some effort, but it is far from impossible.  First you need an excuse to be living slightly above subsistance level, like most PCs do.  Then, instead of spending that extra cash on elite gear, you spend your money on soap, oils, extra water for washing (a sponge bath can make a little water go a long way) and maybe some perfumes or other scenting agents.  You also need to buy protective clothing like a cloak, veil, gloves, and maybe a parasol (and since you want to show off that skin you take off the protective cloathing when you go indoors, and put it on again every single time you go outdoors, which is a pain in the ass but not especially difficult).

Juvenile features can be a pro-survival trait, as long as there are people willing to take care of you.  For the most part F-me descriptions express juvenile beauty: soft skin, little or no body hair, no wrinkles, no sags, a full set of nice white teeth, big eyes, helplessness, light musculature, etc.  These are things you expect to find in children and adolecents, and some people find them attractive in adults (hence all the young teenage fashion models).  Mammals are programed to want to take care of babies, and things that look like babies, otherwise we'd all eat our young when they were a week old, just to get some sleep.  :twisted:  Some people stay baby-faced as adults, and choose to take advantage of that.  Slap on an hour-glass figure or a massive member and you've got yourself a grade-A peice of meat.

Of course if this is a mutation or genetic, then it ought to happen as often to boys as to girls.  The NPC population does sport a fair number of pretty, weak-looking males, so I'm happy.

 * * *


Muscle-bound freaks?  Not a huge problem either, though they should be as rare as the pretty young things.  Getting the bulky muscle of Hurcules or Conan takes a lot of food from a young age, plus ample supplies of high-protien, high-calorie food while training, the leisure time and resources to waste time on exercises that make you bulkier and more muscular looking (without necessarily making you any more effective at putting those muscles to work) and possibly some chemical enhancement.  I'm not talking the "normal" musculature you might find on a blacksmith or a stoneworker, but the sort of bulk that goes way past fitness and really starts heading towards dangerous -- those vein-popping freaks that win body-building competitions.  It's ok for dwarves, muls and giants, but is wierd in humans and downright obscene in half-elves or elves.  Outside of people raised in military Houses and slaves raised as gladiators, it is as out-of-place as dewy skinned beauties.  Not impossible, but rare and requiring a lot of upkeep.  Admired by some, reviled by others as an obvious waste of resources.


 * * *

Plumbing isn't an issue for me either.  In most Earth primates the males are noticably bigger and stronger, on average, than the females of the same species.  That isn't the case in many other species, including some mammals, no one thinks a momma bear is a big weakling.  Even if they are built more or less the same, the differences aren't as big biologically as they are made out to be.  

In highschool they made us take something called the Canada fitness test.  I freely admit that I sucked mightily in many of the catagories, especially the ones that had to do with sprinting.  However, in the strength test (measured with a handheld squeeze thingie) my score was in the 90th percentile for girls my age, and the 50th percentile for boys my age.  That means that I was stronger than 90% of girls, but also stronger than 50% of boys.  Theoretically I could have thumb-wrestled the hell out of half the boys I knew.  :D  And that is in a society where strenth is strongly pushed as a virtue for boys, but not pushed for girls.  Most boys will be stronger than most girls, but very few boys will be stronger then every girl, and very few girls will be weaker than every boy.  There is a huge overlap.


I also submit that each of the 4 stats stands for a huge range of things.  

Agility covers manual dexterity and the ability to do standing backflips, microsurgery and bellydancing, the ability to hold a paintbrush with your toes and the ability to dodge bullets.  It probably has something to do with kinsthetic sense, and the other senses to a lesser degree.

Endurance is the ability to resist punches, resist poisons, resist disease, survive childbirth, survive a sword thrust to the belly, longevity, resistance to pain, survive falling off the shieldwall, chop a cord of wood, run a long way, general health, survive famine, survive drought, to resist passing out from psionic activity, etc.  Someone with middling endurance might not be "average" at all those thing, she might be very good at somethings and very poor at others.  Nice springy bones would help you survive falls, but wouldn't be useful against poison.  A fat reserve will help you survive famine, but won't help you run from Allanak to Luir's.

Strength affects how much you can carry, how hard you hit, what kind of equipment you can use, what you can benchpress, what you can shove, how well you can hold a door closed, how good you are at tug-of-war, how firm your grip is, how high you can jump straight up (fancy jumps also require dexterity) how hard you kick, how good you are at standing your ground against a hit, how far you can hurl when you projectile vomit,  upper body strenth, lower body strenth, back strength, knee strenth, all kinds of strength.  Obviously a real person may be better at some kinds of strenth than others, so you could consider your strength score to be the average of all your strengths.    

Wisdom.  Ridiculously, wisdom encompasses every single measurable mental activity.  Wisdom is your ability to detect a trapdoor and your ability to do algebra, how quickly you learn new things and how well you remember old things (fluid intelligence and crystilized intelligence), your creativity, mental flexibility, powers of reason, problem solving, debating skills, common sense, spidey sense,  magickal potential, ability to spot and resist or reverse a scam, raw cunning, linguistic ability, statesmanship, spelling, ability to detect if your outfit matches or clashes ie. fashion sense, pattern matching, the ability to compellingly tell a story or make a speech, ability to detect the connections between things, ability to determine quality of objects, ability to detect regional accents and class differences, ability to predict consequences of actions, and on and on.  Very few people, if any, are good at all of these things, so you get the Absent Minded Proffessor archtype, a person who is simultaniously a genius and completely clueless.  

To me this means that it is perfectly reasonable for a person of either gender to get a high score in any statistic, because each one represents a wide range of things.  High agility can just as easily mean the potential to be a demon at needlepoint or brain surgery as it could the potential to master kung fu or ballet, and it doesn't have to mean that you have the potential to excel at all of them.  Stats are coded, but that doesn't remove the ability to roleplay your individual strengths and weaknesses.

 * * *

Offspring.  The production and possession of offspring does fall more heavily toward females than males.  It is easily possible for a male to reproduce without realizing it, but nearly impossible for a female to do the same.  One explanation for the development of marriage is that it allows men to know who their offspring are.  In a world without paternity testing or monogamy, there are likely to be many children whose paternity is unknown.  In a world without marriage and legislated child support, there will probably be a fair number of men who neither know nor care that they have children.  No one forces a woman to tell the father about the pregnancy, and no one forces the father to give a damn.  Of course many men will actually WANT their children and all the responsiblity that entails, but not all.

There is going to be some social fall out from that.  Single mothers will be more common than single fathers.  Many children will not know who their fathers are (many others know both parents, and many will know neither parent, but that is beside the point).  Women are going to be more likely to shoulder the burdens and reap the benefits of their own children.  Being pregnat sucks.  However, being old and having no offspring beholden too you also sucks, because there aren't any old folks homes.  Children are valuable: they can work, you can sell them, and most are tied to you for their entire lives.  What does a poor fellow who has no children (that he knows about) do when he needs help from his family and his parents are dead?

I think the situation in the Zalanthan cities would naturally lead to matralineal inheritence, in other words tracing your ancestry through your mother's family line.  You know who your mother is, you know who your mother's sisters and brothers are (your matrilineal aunts and uncles), you know who your mother's sister's children are (your matrilineal cousins) you know who your mother's mother is, you know who your mother's mother's sisters and brothers are, and so on.  You also know who your mother's children are, your brothers and sisters.  You know who your sister's children are, you know who your sister's daughter's children are, etc.  The men born to your female relatives are your male relatives.  The men who impregnated your female relatives may or may not be known, but they are not family.  In general, the children born to your female relatives are more important to you than the children born to the women your male relatives were having sex with.  The guy that was having sex with your mother 3/4s of a year before you were born is less important to you than your mother's brothers -- the guys that fucked your mom may wander off at any time, but your uncles are family forever.


Just a few thoughts.

Angela Christine
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

SRB

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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2004, 11:10:50 AM »
Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix"
I reserve the right for my PC to:


DO ANYTHING THAT IS WITHIN THE REALM OF THEIR ORIGINAL CONCEPT AND MINDSET

That's all I will add to this thread.

Please do not tell me I am roleplaying incorrectly when in truth you have no idea what you speak of.

If I am playing a character who looks down upon sexually active people, then so be it.

Again, I beseech you: do not make erroneous assumptions about players  because of how their pc acts in reaction to yours. Deal with it IC.
 was, am, and always will be. That which dwells under the cast shadows; my Heart of Darkness.

Seeker

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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2004, 11:22:22 AM »
Quote from: "My 2 Sids"
Tell me how it makes sense that people would trust perfect strangers to build relationships and sex encounters??


It seems to me, the purpose of the sexual information in the Quickstart is to make it clear that that sexual preferences and practices on Zalanthas are not perceived by the populace as identical to the views commonly seen in RL.  That is about all there is to it.  Zalanthas has different concepts of taboos and perversions than RL.

I don't read anything the documentation that hints that the populace is driven against the very real need for self-preservation to rut at the drop of the hat with strangers.  That would be foolish for the general population, and likely deadly for the PCs.

The point I see is that if an individual chooses sexual intimacy with one or many, with same sex or opposite sex partners of their own race, it is just not generally considered paticularily odd.

A woman who has a healthy sexual appetite would probably not be regarded very differently from a woman who eats huge meals.  

The private sexual behavior of individuals should probably have less social weight than their public table manners.


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Ayashah

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« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2004, 11:52:58 AM »
Very nice post, AC. I agree with the Matriarch type theory for family structures whole heartedly.
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Intrepid

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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2004, 12:08:13 PM »
Quote
Please do not tell me I am roleplaying incorrectly when in truth you have no idea what you speak of.

If I am playing a character who looks down upon sexually active people, then so be it.

Again, I beseech you: do not make erroneous assumptions about players because of how their pc acts in reaction to yours. Deal with it IC.


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Tamarin

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« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2004, 12:38:26 PM »
I think my next PC is going to look down on people who drink water...yeah, that sounds like a valid RP thing to do.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Comrade Canadia

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« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2004, 02:24:29 PM »
.....................

Okay, this is my last post on the thread, as I have lost faith in humanity in general.  Took me longer than I thought it would!

What the fuck does drinking water have to do with gender conception?  Randomly making up things and claiming I police your RP activites on them is uhm idiotic.  Strawman arguments are supposed to be clever.  'You don't like sexism?  WELL YOU MUST HATE WATER!'  What the hell?

Anyways, what I am talking about here is within the spirit of the world.  Sure, play what you want, but recognise you are intentionally going against game documentation here.  Calling someone a slut in a negative context shouldn't happen, because slut shouldn't be a bad word on armag.  Say 'I can do what I want all I want!' all you can, but it's been made pretty damn clear in this thread that this sort of behaviour does not jive with Zalanthas.

I'm not arbitrarily making up a rule about gender because I get offended, and then forcing you to abide by it.  This is in game documentation, and I think the game would be... oh, I don't know, more unique if we managed to get away from our gender conceptions.  I mean... god.  My ONLY WISH is for Zalanthas to stop being populated with characters from the Forgotten Realms who get angry when I tell them that they're not playing in the spirit of the world.  Am I perfect?  Hell no, but I'm at least self critical.

Armag is not ABOUT sexist attitudes and double standards with regards to women.  If you play these attidues, fine, but recognise that they are contrary to the game world that's been set out.  As Sanvean said, it's like an elf riding a kank.  It isn't arbitrary roleplay police, it's a very specific set of actions in the game world which have been clearly stated as not being appropriate.

-Dave
Mansa to Me: "You are a cancer to ArmageddonMUD."

Sanvean

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« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2004, 02:35:12 PM »
I'm locking this thread, since it's moving over into silliness.  FWIW, I think it's a great discussion, and it addresses an issue that comes up repeatedly.  Thanks, everyone, for the input.

Xygax

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« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2004, 02:44:38 PM »
A couple of the posts in this thread seem to indicate a very strong sense of "entitlement" to play the game however people see fit.

And certainly, to some degree, the documentation for the game (and in fact, this discussion board) exist to facilitate just that.  However, as Sanvean suggested a couple of pages ago on this thread, we place constraints on various roles for a reason.  One of these constraints is:  elves don't ride mounts.  Ever.  For any reason.  Not even if their background says so (all that means is that someone accidentally let a bogus background slip through).

Another constraint is that men and women are perceived by Zalanthan society -everywhere- as equals.  Men are not considered to be superior warriors to women.  Women are not confined to the societal boundaries that are imposed on them by earth-society (especially Puritanical western society).  Another constraint is that sexual activity does not carry the same stigma as it does in earth-society.  Monogamy and heterosexuality are common, but are not enforced by Zalanthan society...  they have useful attributes (it's easier to trust someone you've known for years, and easier to make offspring with members of the opposite sex), but they are NOT a mandate from Heaven (or even from Your Friendly, Neighborhood Sorcerer King).  It isn't considered slutty, degrading or low on Zalanthas to use sex as a tool, or to trade on your sexual attributes, for personal gain.  It is simply the resourceful application of an asset you happen to possess.

If your character is living by other rules than these, then it may profit you to think of yourself as an elf riding a kank.  That's how the rest of society is looking at you when you call someone a "slut" for sleeping with Lord Fancypants to achieve political or financial profit.

We place these constraints because we think overall it makes for a more playable, interesting, accessible world.  So, don't be the elf riding the kank.  It's jarring for the people who are trying to adhere to the world as it is set forth in our documentation, and unpleasant for the people who are the targets of your OOC derision, when -they- are roleplaying within the scope of those constraints and -you- are not.

Don't be the elf riding the kank.