Author Topic: Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.  (Read 21890 times)

SRB

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Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2004, 06:49:34 PM »
I agree with Bestatte, pretty much.

I find it somewhat trite to observe weak, voluptuos females playing the damsel in distress when it's been stated clearly through documentation that they are physically EQUAL to men. If that were so, why do we see so many "ladies".

Snap! I forgot the exception to the rule! Doh!  :roll:
 was, am, and always will be. That which dwells under the cast shadows; my Heart of Darkness.

Stroker

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« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2004, 07:33:26 PM »
Everybody knows, I think, that men have penises and women have vaginas ( I recently learned this). But, while this holds true in-game, the playerbase must understand that the gameworld has rules and laws just like our (your) reality. While some rules can be bent, others CANNOT be broken. True, there are some (many) exceptions occurring in the game. However, the exception is not the rule (hence the title: exception). The current rule of Armageddon regarding gender is: Women and Men are equal in a physical and social aspect. Simply put, you CANNOT argue against this idea because it is clearly emphasized and stated in the documentation. Every immortal who posted on this thread, supported this idea - what more is there to discuss?

People raise ideas such as - "women give birth to children; therefore, they are physically inferior to men both in our reality and armageddon." Once again, with feeling this time, you cannot attribute RL theories (let me underline the idea of a theory - althought theories are supported by numerous evidence, many are proven wrong, if not completely, then partially incomplete) any more than you can attribute MAGICK to our (your) reality. If you -could- do that, Armageddon's world would be titled Earth, and you would be living in Zalanthas.

Sa'alam
musashi: It's also been argued that jesus was a fictional storybook character.

Anonymous

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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2004, 08:18:04 PM »
Quote from: "Agent_137"

 My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people.  


I'm not your friend and I'm not a new player. I don't play anymore because of you.

KatieMunch

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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2004, 08:19:06 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
Quote from: "Agent_137"

 My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people.  


I'm not your friend and I'm not a new player. I don't play anymore because of you.



...and I wasn't logged in.
illie Nelson for President.

Cuusardo

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« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2004, 08:21:40 PM »
YOU may not see this sort of discrimnation happen, but it does happen quite a bit more often than it should.

And I keep repeating the point because people have taken this thread and used it to bitch and gripe about f-mes.  That is not the reason the original poster started this thread.
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Stroker

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« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2004, 08:21:41 PM »
Quote
Anonymous wrote:
Agent_137 wrote:

My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people.  


I'm not your friend and I'm not a new player. I don't play anymore because of you.



...and I wasn't logged in.


What the Man said,

Sa'alam
musashi: It's also been argued that jesus was a fictional storybook character.

jhunter

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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2004, 08:31:32 PM »
Quote
5. I don't understand Jhunter's question. He wants to know about testosterone levels and crap. You're going too deep, man. The code says men and women are equal, the docs say they're equal. They're equal. You make up your own chemical justification if you need it. Then share it, we'd like to hear.


My point is that...if you all go back and read the post I quoted from...someone had said that a muscular man...or a slim woman were out of place.
This statement simply is just untrue...the whole testosterone thing was a failed attempt apparently at trying to point out that a muscular man or a slim woman are just that...when compared to other Zalanthans.

There is nothing wrong or out of place with people making such pcs.

Delirium

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« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2004, 08:36:14 PM »
Quote from: "Agent_137"
4. All my PCs have had different preferences for how they like to go about thier sexual life. Some wanted quality over quantity. Some weren't interested in sex at all. Some wanted anything they could get. Some wouldn't waste time with anyone that wasn't worthy of a mate. But the key thing all my PCs believed, and is suggested by the docs, is that how some one else runs their sex life doesn't make two shits to you. It may not be the way you do things, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.


Yep.
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mansa

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« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2004, 08:37:22 PM »

When you deal with political figures, out of place character... or out of theme characters -WILL- wreck a whole plotline that you've spent your precious time on.  This is -NOT- a fun thing to have to deal with, and makes your time and effort in playing this game seem WASTED and you will not want to put such effort into the game again, only to have it ruined by some punkass 12 year old who wants to seem k00l and impress his buddies.

The only, ONLY thing that matters is power.
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Anonymous

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« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2004, 08:40:51 PM »
Dirr--of course we can challenge a false idea that's present in the docs!   I don't care who says it, it's not true.  You would have to change the laws of physics.

We're playing a game, but it's a realistic game in a realistic earth-like world.  Magick and other fantasy elements aside, we should keep everything else as realistic as possible.  Besides the fact that, even if women were physically weaker on Zalanthas, it would change nothing!  You don't need to use physical equality as an excuse to have women as social equals in Zalanthas, or anywhere else!

flurry

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« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2004, 08:43:11 PM »
Just because on average women are physically equal to men (in the sense of strength, endurance, etc.) doesn't mean every woman is physically on par with every man or vice versa.   There are relatively weak women.  And relatively weak men.  And a weak person who turns that weakness into an advantage through manipulation is a very Zalanthan thing.  Likewise a strong person who feigns weakness for tactical reasons.
Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas.

Comrade Canadia

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« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2004, 08:50:04 PM »
*SIGH*

Okay guys, it's time to go back to roleplaying school.

IC vs. OOC

If I need to explain these concepts you're playing the wrong game.

Disliking an f-me PC is an OUT OF CHARACTER THING.

Your TOUGH HARSH DESERT SURVIVOR doesn't see a porcelain-skinned princess and think 'Wow, somebody's fantasies are transparent.  I bet she's a slut.'  Why?  Because that's an OUT OF CHARACTER CONCEPTION.

Bestatte's earlier point about pale skin being a sign of weakness, although at least ATTEMPTS to make sense of things, doesn't jive with me.  In every culture I've ever even heard of, signs of wealth are what make people attractive.  But I digress.  

Porcelain skinned princesses and heavyweight champions of the universe are something I think we need less of, especially from commoners.  But it's not THAT BIG A DEAL.  The gender issues I'm talking about here are a far bigger deal, and are NOT CAUSED by these archetypes.  Taking an ooc dislike of these archetypes, and then applying it to your character is BAD ROLEPLAY.  Call me pretentious all you want - I'm a roleplayer.  We're all pretentious and I feel very strongly about this.

When you call another character a slut, and use that term in a negative context you are not following armag documents.  I don't care how you justify it.  F-me PCs do not cause sexism.  Saying 'I wouldn't be a sexist if she wasn't such a slut' is such a fallacious concept I can barely wrap my mind around it.

Stop complaining about f-me PCs with relation to this thread, it's not RELEVANT.  No matter what a woman looks like in game, applying your out of character dislike of her appearance in game, and then calling her a slut in a negative context is poor roleplay.  God, people act like half of the game world is he-mans and porcelain princesses.  Dealing with complex things like our conception of gender can only better the game world.  Calling someone a slut in a negative way should have as much stigma attached to it as an elf riding a kank.  

-Dave
Mansa to Me: "You are a cancer to ArmageddonMUD."

Hicksville Hoochie

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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2004, 08:52:24 PM »
Too many people are missing the point of this post...

The point Comrade was making is that people are taking an OOC aspect of our lives, influenced by Christianity and bringing it into the game world, using it to try and discredit players for doing something that the documents themselves state is -completely- okay and usually normal amidst the game world.

Simple explanation of it...

-A female who has a buncha sex in Zalanthas, is NOT a bad person. Being a whore is NOT a bad profession. In fact, the right whores can effectively put themselves in a social scale that makes him or her politically more popular and preferred than just about any common person in the city of Allanak.

-A WOMAN having a buncha sex is NO different than a MAN having a buncha sex. She shouldn't need to be discreet, and worry about being insulted for it, just a she shouldn't.

This topic isn't about a target on F-me PC's and their unrealism to the world. It's about the fact that the moment it's discovered that a female PC has had more than one sexual partner, she's looked down upon as a whore, while the guy is crotch grabbing and being made out as a 'player'.

That shouldn't be the case, a man bragging about his latest score wouldn't be viewed as any different than his latest score bragging about hers.

----

And to touch on the subject of female PCs being the only ones to sleep their way to the top, that's a hard thing to try and make accusations on considering the NPC and VNPC population. How would one know whether or not High Lieutenent of Funhouse got there by skills, or by kanking the Lord/Lady/Noble/Templar In charge of the military of that organization?

Half the NPCs higher than your characters could of got there that way for all we know, just because the Pc population leans to one side of the situation doesn't mean it's the common practice. So instead of just looking down on her for possibly sleeping her way up, why not look down on this NPC for possibly doing the same thing?

Ayashah

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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2004, 08:55:21 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
Quote
5. I don't understand Jhunter's question. He wants to know about testosterone levels and crap. You're going too deep, man. The code says men and women are equal, the docs say they're equal. They're equal. You make up your own chemical justification if you need it. Then share it, we'd like to hear.


My point is that...if you all go back and read the post I quoted from...someone had said that a muscular man...or a slim woman were out of place.
This statement simply is just untrue...the whole testosterone thing was a failed attempt apparently at trying to point out that a muscular man or a slim woman are just that...when compared to other Zalanthans.

There is nothing wrong or out of place with people making such pcs.


You need to go back and read my post yourself as I never said they were out of place. I said they are abnormal. As in the far end of the spectrums. As in not the normal middle ground. As in not the standard commoner. Here, let me requote my original words.

Quote
Some females will be weak, some will be strong, some will be juuussssssst right. Some males will be weak, some strong and some just right. The norm is the middle where most would be. The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.


Or here, layman terms, they are the exception to the rule.
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Stroker

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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2004, 09:12:06 PM »
Quote
Dirr--of course we can challenge a false idea that's present in the docs! I don't care who says it, it's not true. You would have to change the laws of physics.


How does gender relate to laws of physics?
Both genders are equal socially and physically on Zalanthas (Immortals are welcome to correct me on this).

Fine, if you're into REALISM, answer this question:

How can gigantic insects exist?
Fact is, they cannot. That is why the next evolutionary step occurred on Earth; because insects could only reach a certain size before their exoskeleton becomes too thick, too heavy, and too massive to move. Therefore, the idea of giant insects is absolutely ludicrous. Yet, nonetheless, very little players complain about that. Realism, as you and I know it, does not apply to Zalanthas/Armageddon.

Sa'alam
musashi: It's also been argued that jesus was a fictional storybook character.

Rhyden

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« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2004, 09:19:10 PM »
Kudos, Dave, Kudos.

-Rhyden
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One thing I'd like to see in arm is more people focusing on how to make the game intriguing, by filling
it with murder, betrayal, and corruption, instead of arguing about how combat isn't powerful enough.

jhunter

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« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2004, 09:35:00 PM »
Quote
You need to go back and read my post yourself as I never said they were out of place.



One of the meanings of the word abnormal is "out of place".

Ayashah

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« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2004, 09:46:11 PM »
ab·nor·mal    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (b-nôrml)
adj.
Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant.


Main Entry: 1ab·nor·mal
Pronunciation: (')ab-'nor-m&l
Function: adjective
1 : deviating from the normal or average; especially : departing from the usual or accepted standards of social behavior
2 : characterized by mental retardation or disorder —ab·nor·mal·ly /-m&-lE/ adverb


Main Entry: 2abnormal
Function: noun
: an abnormal person


abnormal

\Ab*nor"mal\, a. [For earlier anormal.F. anormal, LL. anormalus for anomalus, Gr. ?. Confused with L. abnormis. See Anomalous, Abnormous, Anormal.] Not conformed to rule or system; deviating from the type; anomalous; irregular. ``That deviating from the type; anomalous; irregular. '' --Froude.


abnormal

adj 1: not normal; not typical or usual or regular or conforming to a norm; "abnormal powers of concentration"; "abnormal amounts of rain"; "abnormal circumstances"; "an abnormal interest in food" [ant: normal] 2: departing from the normal in e.g. intelligence and development; "they were heartbroken when they learned their child was abnormal"; "an abnormal personality" [ant: normal] 3: much greater than the normal; "abnormal profits"; "abnormal ambition"



Hmmm, I must have the wrong dictionary.


cast    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kst)
v. cast, cast·ing, casts
v. tr.

To throw (something, especially something light): The angler cast the line.
To throw with force; hurl: waves that cast driftwood far up on the shore. See Synonyms at throw.
To shed; molt.
To throw forth; drop: cast anchor.
To throw on the ground, as in wrestling.
To deposit or indicate (a ballot or vote).
To turn or direct: All eyes were cast upon the speaker.
To cause to fall onto or over something or in a certain direction, as if by throwing: candles casting light; cast aspersions on my character; findings that cast doubt on our hypothesis.
To bestow; confer: “The government I cast upon my brother” (Shakespeare).

To roll or throw (dice, for example).
To draw (lots).
To give birth to prematurely: The cow cast a calf.
To cause (hunting hounds) to scatter and circle in search of a lost scent.

To choose actors for (a play, for example).
To assign a certain role to (an actor): cast her as the lead.
To assign an actor to (a part): cast each role carefully.
To form (liquid metal, for example) into a particular shape by pouring into a mold.
To give a form to; arrange: decided to cast the book in three parts.
To contrive; devise: cast a plan.
To calculate or compute; add up (a column of figures).
To calculate astrologically: cast my horoscope.
To warp; twist: floorboards cast by age.
Nautical. To turn (a ship); change to the opposite tack.


There's different meanings to a lot of words that can be used in a multitude of ways. My apologies that you assumed I meant something that I clearly did not.
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Bestatte2L2L

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« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2004, 11:06:29 PM »
Here's a couple of things I actually see in the game:

1) "Pretty young things" behaving very dainty and sweet and lovely and pale and porcelain and fluttery and demure and weak, looking for *A* man that she can depend on and call her own, who would never stray from her or even think about ever being with another woman again. The ones who target almost any male, of almost any race, as long as the PC has the word "muscles" in his main description.

2) Sexy women who are sexy because their personality is sexy, regardless of their looks, without any need for emotes of their long lushious thighs gleaming delicately with just the faintest pearlescent hint of womanly dew.

3) Males who take the bait of #1, and allow the women to keep them on a tight leash.

RARELY do I ever see a man behaving like the woman in #1. RARELY do I ever see a woman behaving like the man in #3.

I think this is -why- we have such a division in treatment of the genders. Because it's the players who reinforce the stereotypes themselves. The ones who are the most obvious are the ones who will draw the most attention to their style. Nothing wrong with any of this stuff really - as long as they realize that #1 and #3 are "acceptable" but NOT "common," and that people who observe this type of behavior might comment about it, AND that their comments will be just as appropriate as the behavior attracting the comments.

That goes for either side. A woman who grabs her crotch? I've never seen one of those. A man who flutters his eyelashes at a good looking woman? Never seen one of those either. If they exist, they've kept it away from me. There are gender differences. There is ALSO gender equality. The two are completely seperate things, and I really wish people would understand that.

Also *most* men can't cross their legs like women can. So you won't be seeing too many guys flashing their legs by letting the hem of their kilt fall over their long luscious muscular thighs that glimmer with the faintest sheen of masculine dew. And until the staff tells us all that men in Zalanthas don't have testicles, I'm going to continue accepting this as a fact.

There are other differences that will make women capable of "thrusting themselves" sexually in ways that men cannot. And ways men can thrust THEMselves sexually in ways that women cannot. Grabbing one's crotch, to me, is not something I can see a guy doing if he's trying to find a date. So no, I'm not gonna be calling the crotch-grabber a man-whore.

I dunno. I get kinda sick of people trying to insist that it's my christian ethics giving me these ideas. I'm not christian. Never was, never wanted to be, never will be. I don't even agree with the jewish stuff that was crammed down my throat when I was a kid. So please - leave the judeo-christian ethics theory out of this. It's irrelevent, at least in my case.

Hicksville Hoochie

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« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2004, 11:31:25 PM »
But even with all of the things you listed, how does it make it okay to call any of those women a whore in game, and mean it as an insult, when going by Zalanthan culture, it isn't an insult?

No one is arguing that out of place characters can be silly, and mess with the atmosphere, but does it make it any better to fall into their game and see them labelled as a whore like it's a bad thing?

Yes, I know you're probably thinking my post makes no sense at all; but that's because the post isn't meant to be arguing that. It's meant to be arguing the fact that -WHORE- is not a bad thing for women in game. There is no bad stigma to it, unless it's multi-racial, north-south or something looked down upon of the like.

It's not just the porcelain princesses getting labelled as whores for being a bit easy in game, it's all sorts of female characters who happen to have a little fun, which is what I figure has Comrade posting this for. People are bringing -that- aspect of our real lives into the game, when they shouldn't be.

Ivory skin = could easily be an albino-type mutation amongst the many of the world. And I have seen just as many MALE characters with this as I have females, so it's not just the women doing it.

Whore as a bad thing = No excuse for it to be. No mutation makes being loose a bad thing for a woman, nothing about it is abnormal, she likes some sweaty knaking as much as the next guy or gal, and that's perfectly okay, because it's the norm.

gofmk

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« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2004, 11:48:47 PM »
In my opinion.. IG.. I believe since most of us are average commoners and are short-lived, we make the most of life. Take all the 'sid we can get, the best equipment we can afford, all the ass we can find, spice.. alcohol..  take all of life's luxuries.. it only makes sense.. *shrug* That's my take on it.  :wink:
(gofmk :arrow: F-me PC!)
he love that you have found is the love that you can never find, because it's the love that is never able to be found.

Comrade Canadia

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« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2004, 01:06:12 AM »
Bestatte, reinforcing gneder stereotypes doesn't encourage sexist behaviour.  How many times can I go over this?  And also, your personal ethics weren't 'made up' on the spot, they come from somewhere.  Judeo-Christian ethics are what drive North American society, and if you claim that your own ethical base has absolutely nothing to do with them, I'm going to point and laugh.  I am a STAUNCH atheist, and I still accept the fact that my beliefs are based on Judeo-Christian ethics because it's what I was taught while growing up.  

ANYWAYS.

There are obvious difference between the genders, but the mud isn't interested in correcting all of them.  You're sort of putting words into my mouth here, and building stupid strawmen.  Trying to force me to argue about women using 'the thrusting motion' is ridiculous.

All of the little differences between gender cannot be accounted for, and frankly, nobody wants to completely equal them out.  What I'm talking about here is a very specific behaviour which can easily be stopped by NOT DOING IT.  The game HAS to function on these sort of artifical impositions on our behaviour, because completely forgetting our RL value system is impossible.  We just have to watch for ways in which said value system impacts the game negatively, and then nip it in the bud.

If someone is sleeping around, don't harp on them about it because it's not a bad thing in game.  FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HOW DIFFICULT IS THAT?!   Puritan attitudes about sex, specificalyl with regards to women, shouldn't exist on armag.  It's pretty fucking blatantly stated in the game documentation.  If you disagree, and would like to openly encourage a male-dominant mud... uh, I'll first off be confused, but alright.

If every f-me PC on the mud vanished tomorrow, we would still deal with the attitudes I am talking about.  If every musclebound he-man vanished, we would still deal with the attitudes I am talking about.  They might tend to be obvious TARGETS for the behaviour I'm decrying, but not the only ones.  The double standard of praise for men who get laid, and slander for women who get laid is what I am talking about here.  

Hate f-me pcs all you want, but don't use their behaviour as an excuse for poor roleplay.  Just because a character acts in a way that might get her called a slut RL doesn't mean that you should react in game the same way.  As much as unrealistic characters in the mud might harm the game world, inappropriate responses to them are just as bad, if not worse.  

No, men and women are not 'exactly equal' on armag.  They're obviously quite different in a number of ways, but some of those ways can be reconciled.  In my opinion, and apparently the mud's opinion, they SHOULD.  Women should not be punished for having sex while men are praised for it.  That simple.

-Dave
-Giving up soon.
Mansa to Me: "You are a cancer to ArmageddonMUD."

jhunter

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« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2004, 02:51:59 AM »
Quote
Whore as a bad thing = No excuse for it to be. No mutation makes being loose a bad thing for a woman, nothing about it is abnormal, she likes some sweaty knaking as much as the next guy or gal, and that's perfectly okay, because it's the norm.


 I can see how some might see having sex for money as being pathetic.

Male or female.

There's nothing in the docs that say people don't look down on prostitutes...male or female.

Just something I thought I'd point out.

Gender equality has nothing to do with people looking down on prostitution.

wizturbo

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« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2004, 02:54:44 AM »
I think the 'norm' however, would be that people don't mind prostitutes.  In fact, prostitutes are probably a higher social class then most professions, depending on their clientel.  A prostitute that deals with merchants primarily, would be considerably higher social class then your average commoner.  Prostitutes that have noble patrons would be quite rare, as they'd likely be taken as concubines, and concubines are DEFINITELY higher social class then most commoners.

jhunter

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« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2004, 03:00:17 AM »
Quote
Prostitutes that have noble patrons would be quite rare, as they'd likely be taken as concubines, and concubines are DEFINITELY higher social class then most commoners.


Right, and once they are a concubine...most likely they will no longer be a prostitute.