Author Topic: Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.  (Read 20491 times)

Comrade Canadia

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Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.
« on: November 16, 2004, 02:10:30 AM »
ALRIGHT.  Although this was discussed in previous threads a while ago, I would like to take the opportunity to attack the roleplay of a great deal of the playerbase.  On what, you may ask?

SEX!

Sex sex sex.  The problems in game related to sex have obviously never been dealt with, and so in a VAIN attempt to deal with them I SHALL DRAG THIS ISSUE BACK UP.  Kicking.  Screaming.  And begging for its mommy.

As some people have noticed, people have sex on the mud.  Some, more than others.  This is not a bad thing unless it comes at the expense of realistic roleplay.  The actual act, I'm not going to rant about.  That's been done to death and everyone knows where they stand on it.  How we treat gender in relation to it is another matter entirely.

Officially, as we know it - Zalanthian genders are equal.  No gender is 'superior', no gender is more likely to be found in positions of power, no gender is more likely to take one job than the other.  Even RL physical differences between genders are equal.  Upper body strength, poise, balance, awareness, etc... all of that is exactly the same in men and women on armag.

Then why is it that time, and time again female PCs who DARE take on a lover or two suffer a barrage of insults?  Somehow, it's bad when a woman has sex, worse when she has a lot of it... AND SOCIAL DEATH if she happens to have risen to any position of power.  

Slut.  Loose.  Whore.  No self respect.  Desparate.  Sleeping her way to the top.

Male pcs in similar positions?  NO PROBLEM!  I can think of a few male PCs in particular who fucked half of Allanak - usually with a range of reactions.  Some negative, mostly neutral, some positive.  You know, a range.  Not 'HE'S A WHORE!  HE SLEPT HIS WAY TO THE TOP!'  Said reactions can be negative, but not overwhelmingly so.  I have never, ever seen a male PC accused of sleeping his way to the top on armag.

And even if a woman on arm DOES sleep around... why is this a -bad- thing?  Where the hell are the puritan roots on armag that would spawn this sort of attitude?  Commoners don't even get married!  Why is sex suddenly bad, especially so when a woman is involved?  The answer is obvious in terms of RL influence on how we react towards gender, but we should be attempting to get past that.  

I've been playing armag off and on for eight years now, and during that time I have seen pc, after pc, after pc become the subject of endless attack because she dared to have sex with more than one man.  Unless there is some sort of official word on how this sort of reaction jives with gender standards on arm... this is my plea.

PLEASE STOP IT.  IT IS BAD ROLEPLAY.

Got a problem with sex?  Fine.  Make sure men get as much flak as women.  No problem with sex?  Even better.  Make sure women get as much praise for scoring the big one as men.  If you disagree with me on this, fine - just remember one thing here.  The F-me PC is a term known to pretty much every armer as an example of bad roleplay, and I sure as hell don't think of a man when that term is used.  Think about that.

-Dave
Mansa to Me: "You are a cancer to ArmageddonMUD."

JollyGreenGiant

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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 02:31:51 AM »
Quote
And begging for its mommy.


Paging Dr. Freud...
quote="Larrath"]"On the 5th day of the Ascending Sun, in the Month of Whira's Very Annoying And Nearly Unreachable Itch, Lord Templar Mha Dceks set the Barrel on fire. The fire was hot".[/quote]

jhunter

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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 02:43:27 AM »
This got me to thinking...how come there aren't any male npc prostitutes around? I've seen females but no males...

A greasy man-whore clad in only a loincloth stands on the corner here, calling out to people passing by.

A half-giant prostitute is here next to the greasy man-whore, calling out and waving his massive member.

RunningMountain

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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2004, 02:47:54 AM »
First of all, I don't think you are someone to judge what is good or bad roleplay amongst pcs.  How someone reacts to something is completely up to them and how they are playing a certain characters persona, and I disagree with you on a lot of what you said, equality and all that jazz.  

-Uh, it's sorcerer-King right? Though a sorcerer-queen would be cool as hell.

-Men and woman -are- treated differently because they are different, no matter how much you spout about equality between the genders I have to just spout back that you're wrong about that, even in a fantasy world men and woman are different, even if you say woman can be as strong as men or this and that, as far as the political world is concerned they are so much different, the way it is viewed by the pcs should never be policed the way you are saying it needs to be.
-If you don't like the way pcs react to something then submit the fiery-eyed bull-necked dike, join the byn and start calling these certain 'male' pcs that are sleeping their way to the top, little man-whores with a worthless seed and prickly limp tregil cocks.

I'm done I think..

-RM
“A man's reputation is what other people think of him; his character is what he really is.”

Hicksville Hoochie

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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2004, 03:17:45 AM »
Actually, RunningMountain, it's a HIGHLY stressed fact, that the gender barrier is nonexistent in Zalanthas.

Quote from: "http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html"
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.
 

Comrade Canadia

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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2004, 03:39:17 AM »
RM, you're cheerfully illustrating my point right now.  The sort of attitude you're displaying there is exactly what I'm talking about.  The doc HH pointed out -directly- says it's not an appropriate outlook in the game world, even though many people share it.  Most have the good taste to deny it at least.  Incidentally, it's spelled dyke, not dike.  Get your epithets right.  I'm not calling you a beegut or a mesawjunist, now am I?

-Dave
-Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to deteriorate faster than a sock at Vimy Ridge?
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John

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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2004, 03:54:02 AM »
Quote from: "RunningMountain"
First of all, I don't think you are someone to judge what is good or bad roleplay amongst pcs.
Guess what. This is a discussion board where discussions take place. People are going to discuss certain things. They will say "I think X is wrong while I think Y is right." In a ROLEPLAYING section people will discuss roleplaying and what they think is good roleplaying and what they think is bad roleplaying. Some will voice their opinions stronger then others. No, a player (in my opinion) isn't an authority on what's good roleplaying. But we're more then welcome to discuss what we think.

I'm just getting sick of anytime someone tries to present an opinion in anything that resembles "slightly strong" they get told "your a player shut up." If you don't like players saying what their opinion is on a matter don't visit the discussion board.

[/rant]

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
Men and woman -are- treated differently because they are different
And don't you go ranting about saying players are opinions and aren't worth anything if you're then going to present your own opinion as fact ;)

(last bit was tongue-in-cheek :P).

Your opinion (IMO) is wrong though. Women and men aren't different. Staff have said numerous times on the GDB that there is no difference. Staff who've said that ranges across the entire board from Overlords to Storytellers. The only difference from what I've read is women have tits and their plumbing is inside whereas males don't have tits with their plumbing outside. Those are the only (and they're very superficial) differences. So until I see a staff explicitly say they are to be treated differently socailly then I'll roleplay they're the same socially.

Quote
how come there aren't any male npc prostitutes around?
Because us males have mainly been the people writing the NPC whores?
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Morrolan

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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2004, 04:25:14 AM »
This isn't an answer, and might even be a little off-topic.  But it is pertinent, I think.

Examples of women making it to the top without sex -do- happen in this game.

I can think of two Byn Lieutenants and a handful of sergeants who made it.  And while it's popular to pooh-pooh the Byn, it's generally accepted as a training ground for new players.

They weren't the kind of people who slept around.  Circumspect and professional, they were paragons of Armageddon military life.  They worked their way up through the ranks by -not dying-, facing the same dangers as everyone else.  It was by being tougher, smarter, or both that they made the grade.  And if they were sleeping with anyone, it was no-one's business.  Organizational skills, dedication, and competence were what counted.

Now, in a leadership position in a military organization, it is generally accepted that you don't sleep with the troops.  Not always done, but generally accepted.  It's bad for morale.  But I'd dare someone to spit in those PCs faces and say that they slept their way to the top.

People like that have a way of lining the latrines.
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Tlaloc

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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2004, 05:17:40 AM »
Quote
-Uh, it's sorcerer-King right? Though a sorcerer-queen would be cool as hell.


Who's to say there haven't been any, aren't any now, or won't ever be any?
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Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2004, 05:53:25 AM »
There are male NPC prostitutes in game.

Adhira

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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2004, 05:55:18 AM »
Ahem, now that I am logged in, I shall repeat, there are NPC prostitutes in game of the male gender.
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Sandstorm Phoenix

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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2004, 06:17:12 AM »
Here's  an old thread related to this one.   Fun read:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5120&highlight=

It is an OOC issue stemming back from the days of HnS muds where the quickest way to level up with the least amount of effort was to make a female character in a hungry male virtual world.  It worked, and worked well.   It works pretty good here too, if the truth be told.  

It doesn't work quite as easily to man-whore your way to the top.  That is what I want to complain about.   The docs say pure gender equality, so you guys who like to play hot swishy female PCs. . . you should be able to deflate her and make a F-Me male and sleep your way all the way up!  Fight for your equal rights!  Why should wimminfolk get all the fun?

'course, my PCs will still make fun of you.  Especially if you're banging halfbreeds or Kaidians or Byn or anything other than a pure human.

Cenghiz

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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2004, 06:29:24 AM »
The easiest way to support gender equality: Making chars of opposite sex!

When a male creates a female char (I do sometimes) your char is more agreessive, choosing, picking and f*cking his man. (Note: Male or female, I blank out.) She's also confident and furious, like Zalanthan women are most likely.

And I believe when a female player creates a male char, that male would be a little bit more passive and emotional. That would be perfect seasoning in the Rambos' world of Zalanthan males.

I liked my female characters when they disturbed males, even sexually harrassed the cute male sitting at the bar. It seemed logical and noone ever said anything bad about those females. Because they weren't RL females for sure, being played by a male.

So all I can do.... emote zaps everyone with a pink wand.
quote="Ghost"]Despite the fact he is uglier than all of us, and he has a gay look attached to all over himself, and his being chubby (I love this word) Cenghiz still gets most of the girls in town. I have no damn idea how he does that.[/quote]

Adhira

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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2004, 06:33:43 AM »
Quote
When a male creates a female char (I do sometimes) your char is more agreessive, choosing, picking and f*cking his man. (Note: Male or female, I blank out.) She's also confident and furious, like Zalanthan women are most likely.

And I believe when a female player creates a male char, that male would be a little bit more passive and emotional. That would be perfect seasoning in the Rambos' world of Zalanthan males.


I disagree with this. I've seen plenty of agressive females played by women, I've played some myself. By the same token some of the fluffiest, most flirtatious and feminine female characters I have seen have been played by men.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Cenghiz

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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2004, 07:10:24 AM »
Quote
By the same token some of the fluffiest, most flirtatious and feminine female characters I have seen have been played by men.


Don't blame those men.... They've played their fantasies.. :)

Anyway; what I wanted to say: Putting yourself in other sex's shoes could help a little. Of course, thinking of the above quote, that may just be a bad idea.
quote="Ghost"]Despite the fact he is uglier than all of us, and he has a gay look attached to all over himself, and his being chubby (I love this word) Cenghiz still gets most of the girls in town. I have no damn idea how he does that.[/quote]

Bestatte

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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2004, 07:28:01 AM »
A few observations and points:

1) The quickstart is a *player-submitted* guide, one which went through the wringer when it was introduced for popular opinion right here on the GDB. Several people disagreed with various points on that quickstart, and I still disagree with the points I disagreed with then. I don't know if everyone else who did, still does. You'd have to ask them.

2) Males and females in Zalanthas are *EQUAL* however they are *NOT THE SAME*. There's a huge difference between the two.

3) I haven't ever witnessed a male PC in Arm attempt to sleep his way to the top, so I've never had any reason to criticize one for that behavior, either ICly or OOCly. I have witnessed MANY female PCs do this, and some of my PCs will absolutely, positively have an opinion about it. And maybe some of my characters BE one of those PCs who attempts to sleep their way to the top, or sex up another PC just to get info or "stuff" from them.

I know that there are male PCs who sleep around *specifically* for the purpose of gaining something unrelated to the sex itself. It's just that none of my characters have ever observed the "usual" behavior leading up to it, or resulting from it.

Conclusion: I don't think any PC should have problems noticing anyone, male or female, wanting to be intimate with anyone else, for the sake of intimacy itself, or for "bonding" purposes, or for reproduction purposes.

However, I don't think there's anything wrong AT ALL with someone having a problem with watching a PC use their crotch as a way to get to the top. Jealousy *of a position your PC wants to attain*, possessiveness *of a position you already hold which is being threatened by the intimacy of another PC*, scorn - for two reasons actually - one, because the female doesn't have what it takes to rise to the top without thrusting her crotch at a male, and two, because the male she thrusts it at is too stupid to notice that she's trying to wrangle information from him.

These are perfectly valid reasons to take issue with f-me PCs of either gender, if your character observes this sort of behavior, and can see the pattern as being intentional (like an F-me PC who will ONLY go after Sergeants of various clans, or who will ONLY go after nobles in Allanak, or who will ONLY go after the people you know are all spies for various houses, etc. etc. etc.)

That's my opinion on the matter. And I think it's important to understand the massive difference between "equal" and "the same." Just as 3 apples are equal to 3 oranges, the two kinds of fruit are NOT the same.

Armaddict

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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2004, 07:55:10 AM »
3 oranges are so much more than 3 apples.  Really.

But yeah, I agree...equal, but not the same.  I actually consider some female pc's -more- dangerous than a lot men pc's that could rip me to shreds.  Why?  At least I see the sword coming.  Some women are good about making sure no one -ever- sees that knife coming.

People think Tuluk is subtle?  Check out circles of women :P
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Ayashah

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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2004, 08:40:15 AM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
This got me to thinking...how come there aren't any male npc prostitutes around? I've seen females but no males...

A greasy man-whore clad in only a loincloth stands on the corner here, calling out to people passing by.

A half-giant prostitute is here next to the greasy man-whore, calling out and waving his massive member.


Catamites....seen a few npcs there I just figure most dont use the word 'prostitute' in the short description of the male ones.

A point to remember, to those that scorn the female sleeping their way to the top, SHIT ROLLS DOWNHILL. Go ahead and piss her off.

*cackles evilly and makes a notation next to that pc's short*
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RunningMountain

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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2004, 09:09:22 AM »
Quote

I'm just getting sick of anytime someone tries to present an opinion in anything that resembles "slightly strong" they get told "your a player shut up." If you don't like players saying what their opinion is on a matter don't visit the discussion board.

[/rant]


I'm not saying he's wrong because he's a player, I'm saying he's wrong because people are going to play their pcs the way they want. Posting here to tell people to quit bad roleplaying is kind of pointless because unless it's something major you're not going to reach anybody, just like me and you throwing opinions back and forth, it's moot.

Quote

Your opinion (IMO) is wrong though. Women and men aren't different. Staff have said numerous times on the GDB that there is no difference. Staff who've said that ranges across the entire board from Overlords to Storytellers. The only difference from what I've read is women have tits and their plumbing is inside whereas males don't have tits with their plumbing outside. Those are the only (and they're very superficial) differences. So until I see a staff explicitly say they are to be treated differently socailly then I'll roleplay they're the same socially.


And I think your opinion is wrong, men and woman are different, in the real world and in the virtual, and in all fantasy worlds that you read/play in. It's nothing more then common sense to at least admit they are different, equal is another beast to argue about all in itself.
“A man's reputation is what other people think of him; his character is what he really is.”

RunningMountain

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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2004, 09:11:55 AM »
Dike can be spelled either way too.
“A man's reputation is what other people think of him; his character is what he really is.”

Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2004, 09:46:57 AM »
Quote from: "Bestatte"
1) The quickstart is a *player-submitted* guide


Why not call it an 'Imm-approved' guide instead of using precise wording to cast dispersions on a guide that has some specific sections you happen to not like?

I highly doubt that Sanvean/Nessalin, etc. would publish a guide with errors in it.

Larrath

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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2004, 09:49:50 AM »
I believe that there are some differences between all men and women that are true for both the real and the fantasy worlds.

In my opinion, a female is more likely to operate in a manner favoring quality over quantity when choosing mates, while males will pick the opposite behaviour.  The obvious reason for this is that a female can only carry one pregnancy at once, whereas a male can make half a city pregnant if given a year and half a chance.


Mul mix is commonly and cheaply available, so most pairings don't result in pregnancy anyway.  I think that a female sleeping with everyone she sees is about as peculiar as a male that's holding out for the One, or in other words, not very.
The male in question might be asked "What if you never find her?" and the female would be asked "What if you get pregnant by one of those creeps?" and both will shrug it off and say it won't happen or that they'll deal with it.
Let's not forget that selling children is a common practice, after all.



Now, if you want to use the old cliches about genders, that's just silly.  Women are not delicate creatures that need nurture and protection and shouldn't walk alone at night, and men are not forceful brutes who only understand force, spitting and their sekrit language of Grunting.

Just about all of these differences are created by society.  Little boys can fight and spar and whatever amongst themselves, but they can't lay a finger on a girl or the teacher will hit them with a spiked iron ruler.  Little boys are given plastic soldiers and weapons to play with while girls get dolls to dress up.  Boys can get some dirt on their clothes and in their hair, but girls will be lectured and slapped repeatedly if they got that messy.
The list goes on.  Fact is that in Zalanthas, it's not "men don't cry", but rather "nobody cries, ever".
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Bestatte

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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2004, 10:00:57 AM »
Quote
Now, if you want to use the old cliches about genders, that's just silly. Women are not delicate creatures that need nurture and protection and shouldn't walk alone at night, and men are not forceful brutes who only understand force, spitting and their sekrit language of Grunting.


Exactly. And when people who play these stereotypes stop playing them, I believe we will see more people treating the genders as equals. My observation tells me otherwise. That some female PCs DO sleep their way to the top, and that some male PCs ARE too stupid to realize they're being manipulated.

If it's intentional, great! And just as great - is when people respond to it accordingly. Because - female PCs should NOT be using "weakness" and "delicacy" and "need for nurture and protection" as a means to become influential, since the docs state very clearly that women in Zalanthas AREN'T weak, delicate, and needing nurture and protection.

A female who behaves like this SHOULD expect to be criticized.

Naiona

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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2004, 10:22:11 AM »
I am personally amused that we have players that are OOCly offended by the combination of ruthless sexuality and manipulation in Zalanthas, yet are perfectly happy with wanton violence or corruption.

The typical person in either citystate has -none- of the sexual mores that exist in Western society.  Male or female concubines and consorts are looked -up- to, not down upon.  Take a look at the social documentation ( http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html ), people. It is clearly laid out for you.  A PC might have IC jealousy because their character wanted the prestige that Lord Fluffybottom's concubine got instead, but the vast majority of characters will only envy their luck and/or manipulative skill in gaining such a position.

Quickstart is accepted as part of the official documentation.  It was compiled by Sanvean, based on a concept by a player (Shaleah).   It has been said a thousand times and will likely be said a thousand more without changing a thing - but forget your modern day values.  They have no relevance here.

I have no doubt that many people will find reasons for their PCs to continue to have nothing but scorn for any female PC that doesn't have visible warts, massive muscles and an offensive odor.  But those people should be aware that it is their own prejudice kicking in and has nothing to do with the reality of Zalanthas.
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Pantoufle

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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2004, 10:32:49 AM »
Quote from: "Comrade Canadia"
why is it that time, and time again female PCs who DARE take on a lover or two suffer a barrage of insults? Somehow, it's bad when a woman has sex, worse when she has a lot of it... AND SOCIAL DEATH if she happens to have risen to any position of power.


I'm not certain if what you describe is necessarily the case, at least not on any large scale.

But I think if there is any truth to your statement it is because more often than not said female characters are playing high fantasy fluff concepts that rarely fit in with the ArmageddonMUD theme.  I can't tell you of how many "princesses" with their unrealistic alabaster skin and impossible good looks who have slept their way to power that I've seen.  It's such a fad.  And to me, it doesn't make sense.  The female characters whom I've known that have truly risen to power didn't even roleplay sex (to my knowledge).  Or if they had, it wasn't the tool to their success.  

Examples include Lady Templar Dora Tor, Druel (was that her name? It's been a while.  Some 'Naki soldier chick at any rate), and Basya of House Kurac.

Why are people insulting females who sleep their way to power but not males?  Because regardless of Zalanthan principles and ethics, the playerbase is played by real people with real world personalities.  I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm just saying that that is a real world stigma.  Don't expect that to go away any time soon, and don't expect every single person to eradicate real world prejudices successfully in game.

But not to sound entirely chauvenistic, I'm willing to bet all these males who have "slept with half of Allanak", as you say, actually weren't using sex -- or should I say, MUDsex -- to rise to power.  They just happened to be sowing their wild oats while also having completely separate agendas from their sex life.  If you're creating a ridiculous alabaster-skinned buttslut with silken hair down to your ankles (in the Madmax-like world of Zalanthas, of all places), then don't expect much respect from me, in game or out of game.

Krath

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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2004, 10:33:02 AM »
Quote from: "Naiona"
I am personally amused that we have players that are OOCly offended by the combination of ruthless sexuality and manipulation in Zalanthas, yet are perfectly happy with wanton violence or corruption.

The typical person in either citystate has -none- of the sexual mores that exist in Western society.  Male or female concubines and consorts are looked -up- to, not down upon.  Take a look at the social documentation ( http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html ), people. It is clearly laid out for you.  A PC might have IC jealousy because their character wanted the prestige that Lord Fluffybottom's concubine got instead, but the vast majority of characters will only envy their luck and/or manipulative skill in gaining such a position.

Quickstart is accepted as part of the official documentation.  It was compiled by Sanvean, based on a concept by a player (Shaleah).   It has been said a thousand times and will likely be said a thousand more without changing a thing - but forget your modern day values.  They have no relevance here.

I have no doubt that many people will find reasons for their PCs to continue to have nothing but scorn for any female PC that doesn't have visible warts, massive muscles and an offensive odor.  But those people should be aware that it is their own prejudice kicking in and has nothing to do with the reality of Zalanthas.



*MUTTER* You beat me to it again...RM, you are right, but not in this case. If you read
the Documents and retained the information, which Hicksville Hoochie posted on
page 1, you would understand your views are wrong in this case.  

The Mistress above has pretty much said what I wanted to.
But it's cool, I can rap my skills, too
Cuz I rise above the rest like
'mon un whira [IC info removed]'

Pantoufle

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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2004, 10:38:05 AM »
Quote from: "Bestatte"
And when people who play these stereotypes stop playing them, I believe we will see more people treating the genders as equals. My observation tells me otherwise. That some female PCs DO sleep their way to the top, and that some male PCs ARE too stupid to realize they're being manipulated.

If it's intentional, great! And just as great - is when people respond to it accordingly. Because - female PCs should NOT be using "weakness" and "delicacy" and "need for nurture and protection" as a means to become influential, since the docs state very clearly that women in Zalanthas AREN'T weak, delicate, and needing nurture and protection.

A female who behaves like this SHOULD expect to be criticized.


Well said.

flurry

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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2004, 11:04:25 AM »
Quote from: "CRW"
Quote from: "Bestatte"
1) The quickstart is a *player-submitted* guide


Why not call it an 'Imm-approved' guide instead of using precise wording to cast dispersions on a guide that has some specific sections you happen to not like?

I highly doubt that Sanvean/Nessalin, etc. would publish a guide with errors in it.


Not only that, as I recall the Imms invited player input from the GDB about the quickstart doc, and it was revised based on that additional input.
Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas.

Intrepid

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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2004, 11:34:22 AM »
So you guys can believe in magick and nonhuman races and mutations
that result in wings, but not in a possible mutation that might make a
pc more attractive rather than less?

Pathetic.
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Pantoufle

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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2004, 11:49:53 AM »
Quote from: "Intrepid"
So you guys can believe in magick and nonhuman races and mutations
that result in wings, but not in a possible mutation that might make a
pc more attractive rather than less?

Pathetic.


I don't think anyone said that.

SwanSwanHummingbird

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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2004, 11:56:55 AM »
First of all, I'd like to say (and I hope the Imms don't take this personally, it's not a very important point anyway) that I disagree with them about the sexes being physically equal on Zalanthas.  Now, I understand it's their game and I'm willing to play along, but if we're going to have a discussion about it I'm going to give my true opinion.  Humans being stronger, more resistant to heat and pain, and generally tougher (like Zalanthans are) makes sense to me.  I could see that happening, but in all cases women will necessarily be slower and less balanced (probably also weaker, although I'm not sure) than their male counterparts.  The ability to give birth requires some compromises to the physically ideal (i.e. male) frame, and that's not going away regardless of what the imms say.

At least half the differences between males and females in the real world, I think, are due to different socialization, which would obviously be changed in Zalanthas, so that would reduce the differences between males and females somewhat.  And that's not to say that -some- women wouldn't be amazingly strong, agile, etc..  but just not as a group.

But the really important thing I want to say is: even if there are physical differences between men and women, there's still no excuse for having a double-standard when it comes to sexuality and when it comes to holding positions of power!

I know it's hard, but people should try to train themselves to view women liking sex as normal and okay, especially in Zalanthas, a society with no puritan roots.

And the next time a sexy female PC rises to a position of power, and receives all kinds of insults behind her back at her having "slept to the top", if you're one of the insulters, ask yourself this: Is it the sex you object to, or is it that she's in a position of power?  I think the latter.  I think men have a problem with women having power, especially if the power was gained in a "feminine" way, through manipulation using her sexuality.  I don't think Zalanthans would have a problem with "feminine" power.  Power is power.

So, sleep your way to the top!  But, remember it's lonely at the top.  You might have to sleep around some more once you get there.

Cuusardo

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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2004, 12:22:01 PM »
The point of this thread is that many people are taking a sexist, Judaeo-Christian double standard of the real world and putting them into a society in which it does not belong.  Female PCs are being looked down upon for having sex, and males are not.
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Intrepid

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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2004, 12:34:43 PM »
Quote
I don't think anyone said that.


Ok, just to be fair, maybe I misinterpreted.  I don't believe I did, but it
is possible.

Currently, I am playing a pc who would be mistaken for a F-me pc by
desc, but only due to a mutation that runs in her family; the females
of which happen to have been prostitutes.  She also exhibits other
odd features to her mutation, but I won't get into that.  She never has
sex and generally isn't interested in it, but I've already seen odd
reactions based solely on her appearance.  And yes, I anticipated this
when I made her.  Regardless of how several posters have tried to
rationalize it, we have Puritans rping with us in a world where they
never existed.

Sexual politics is politics, and our Puritan players do not need to like
that for it to be true.  I notice that most of the dislike for F-me pcs who
sleep their way to the top is overt.  Like the pc can't stop themselves
from just blurting out things to a F-me pc who already proved herself
sly enough and potentially dangerous enough to rise to the top.  And no,
I've never played a F-me pc.  I just see quite a bit from my the pcs I've
played.  I don't think most of this F-me pc rage is as ic as the players
advocating it would like to rationalize.  I think there is a lot of ooc
contempting occurring here behind a flimsy veil of half-rp.  But then,
I could be wrong.  I doubt it though.

Politics, backstabbing, seduction, betrayal...all are part of Machiavellian
intrigue.  Allanak and Tuluk may be low tech, but their cultures are as
advanced and involved as feudal Japan, imo.  Many players just refuse
to embrace the complexity.
Proud Owner of her Very Own Delirium.

Comrade Canadia

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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2004, 01:30:33 PM »
People are missing my point here... well, some of them.  What I'm harping on is not that people get mad at others who actually do sleep their way to the top.  Hell, if that happens - sure!  Jealousy and whatnot can abide.

My gripe here is the double standard in gender.  Men are not attacked for it while women are.  Yes, the genders are different in arm, NO Bestatte, they are not equal, we just pretend they are.  Behaviour like this is what stops them from being equal.  Bitching about f-me PCs also reinforces my point here.  Yes, they don't jive with the game world... but you know, this is an application only mud.  They're bad... but they're not THAT bad.

Porcelain skinned princesses with gigantic breasts and a flirtatious attitude ARE bad character concepts.  Are they the ABSOLUTE WORST?  No, but they sure as hell get that treatment.  It's like how misandrony is so much worse than misogyny.  An abusive husband isn't nearly as demonised as a feminist.  Hell, the fact that people are using this thread as an excuse to complain about f-me PCs is... well, kind of funny, considering that the point of this thread is to get people to correct that sort of behaviour.  

Claiming that gender stereotypes are the reason people have sexist attitudes is a complete fallacy.  'If she wasn't such a slut, I wouldn't treat her so badly!'  Come on.  This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.  Are f-me PCs a breach of the game world?  Of COURSE.  Anyone who attacks me after this post claiming I love f-me PCs is going to get hysterical laughter as their response.  

However, I think we level an unreasonable amount of hate on them because of our conceptions of how much sex men and women should have.  

ALSO.  The 'harshness' of the game world isn't all encompassing.  Gender equality doesn't fucking compromise armag's harshness.  God I'm learning to loathe that word.  Just because something presents further conflict or difficulty in game doesn't necessarily mean it's good.  Sexism might be harsh, but from what I've gathered, it's the sort of harsh that we're supposed to work on getting rid of.

Is this a futile quest of mine?  I think partially, but if at least ONE person reads this thread, and thinks 'Hey, when I was mad at that woman, I called her a slut and started spreading nasty rumours about her sleeping with everybody... those rumours shouldn't be taken as nasty!  I'VE BEEN NAUGHTY!' then my work here is done.

-Dave
Mansa to Me: "You are a cancer to ArmageddonMUD."

Intrepid

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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2004, 01:39:58 PM »
I would agree that there is a double standard, yes.  I think most pcs,
who see people die horribly every day in an arena for sport of all
things, should not be phased in the slightest if someone is in danger
of propogating the species further.  "If they can support that many
children, breed away!"

That said, it has much to do with the aforementioned Puritans we
have playing with us that there is this double-standard in sex, because
it does not exist in Zalanthian society; it only exists on Earth.

Lastly, I am quite aware of what this thread is about; I simply chose to
respond to someone who had veered off course.
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Ayashah

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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2004, 01:55:37 PM »
Quote from: "Pantoufle"

Examples include Lady Templar Dora Tor, Druel (was that her name? It's been a while.  Some 'Naki soldier chick at any rate), and Basya of House Kurac.


It was Druell and thank you, because she definitely didnt sleep her way to the power she had. *grins*

Cap'n, I can wholy admit I have had those same 'thoughts' about F-me PCs. Shoot, my PCs at times have been thought to be F-Me PCs and upon posting in the clans' board about playing times get PMs of relief that there was a good player behind that f-me look. I also, thanks to some IMM guidance with one PC, turned my thinking around because I was letting RL seep into the game.

As for the weaker sex theory, ARM is not Earth. There are sexual differences between the sexes but muscularity, ability to fight, etc being the playing field of males first then females as a far second doesnt hold on ARM. The Humans of ARM arent the Humans of Earth. It would probably be easier to grasp if the race wasnt called 'Human" then no one would comare RL sex differences to ARM genders. Some females will be weak, some will be strong, some will be juuussssssst right. Some males will be weak, some strong and some just right. The norm is the middle where most would be. The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.

These unrealistic biases wont go away. Why? Because new players will join and have to learn to let go of their biases and old players that hold the bias, wont be able to let go. What Cap'n did though was make you all think about it.
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Sanvean

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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2004, 02:47:21 PM »
The Quickstart is published on the website and is official documentation.

People imposing ideas from their own backgrounds happens frequently in the game.  This does not make it right, unfortunately.  Examples of incorrect play:
*Automatically assuming that monogamous, heterosexual pairings are the only "correct" way for your character to have relationships.
*Automatically assuming that your character worships some sort of Higher Power.
*Automatically assuming that a female PC that has sex is a whore, while a male PC is a stud. (This assumption comes from both male and female players; I've seen some of the strongest examples of it from female players.)

Arguing that however someone roleplays is "correct" and it's just the way they choose to run their character is, unfortunately, the same rationale people use for running racial characters that go outside the guidelines for their race, such as clever half-giants, riding elves, and friendly halflings.  This leads to new players getting the wrong idea, and reinforcing other incorrect roleplay.  I understand what you're getting at, but (to my mind) if you're running a character that directly contradicts the documentation, it should be treated like a special character and approved (or not) by the staff, because it ends up damaging the game-world overall.

The purpose of the game is roleplay and stretching the imagination.  I'm not sure how people can argue that they can run an elf realistically but they can't run a female that doesn't match RL norms.

I'm in agreement with Comrade Canadia here, because this bugs me as well, but I suspect it will continue as an ongoing debate.  Which is good, because that way people think about it, at least.

sarahjc

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« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2004, 03:17:57 PM »
My opinions on this..

First by your PC thinking and assuming that females are inferior in -any- form you are bringing outside views into the game world. This may not be wrong for a certain PC or if your PC just has reasons to think such, but for the average joe.. It's wrong, If you need more help understanding this... Well let me give a try.

All PC's male and female are "coded the same" The are -coded- just as strong, just as tall, just as fast, just as smart. The "skin" that you put on them is the only difference.  So Oocly "CODEWISE"  they are the same. IC'ly the "DOCUMENTATION" tells you they are the same, so my question to you is, what don't you understand?? I understand it is difficult to think that little miss bounce bottom bynner can kick your ass six different ways, cause she is so curvy and slender and you are so burly and strong. But she can, and your PC should know that she can. Does it defy physics? Maybe.. Is this a fantasy game?? Yes. I mean I also find it weird that most of the men I meet have some kind of chiseled features and ripping muscles.

Basically it would be like me calling your PC a Homo at the bar in front of a crowd of your closest friends. The IC thing for you to do would be to give me a dumb look and a shrug.  The wrong response would be for you to give me a shove and say something like, "You’re a Fag! Not me!" Cause on the world of Zalanthas. Gay people also have no stigma.

Now on to the F-me thing and how women are perceived. I say, it's all fair game. I have only once witnessed blatant prejudice against a woman from a man in game for sexually promiscuity. I have also seen an IG post about it, however the post interestingly enough was about the said woman bedding down with an elf.  So I thought it was neither here nor there.

But I will tell you what I did think,  that the guy telling me at the bar was a closed minded redneck and a poor RP'er, I just gave him a look of.." What's your point?"  And who really cares if you sleep your way to the top, I'm sure that guy is fine as long as he gets a ride on the way there..

What I see most of is not the men singling out the woman PC's for swaying hips and lushes lips,  it's the other women singling them out. It's Ms. hard as nails, battle scared warrior that looks at the new F-me woman with disdain and a scoffs.  And that too doesn't help.  I mean unless your PC is less than confident and is the Katty type, then you shouldn't even be flinching or caring. You use your brawn to struggle your way up, they may -or- may not use something else. Remember.. Men -do- the same, and I can think of a few that do it consistently and effectively

Also, one more point on this is to keep it in game, and what I mean by that is, that if you feel that your PC has suffered an injustice of some kind, remember that it may very well just be an IC one. And normally it is. We have these posts that come up here all the time.  Why do women have it easier? Why do women always play F-me's. Why do men bitch about F-me's??  Why do men constantly think that we are not equal? It can all be solved in game, and if you feel that you see a player acting completely inappropriate, send a note to the mud. Maybe they can talk to the player, maybe what you think is OOC influence is right in line with PC.

And please, stop with the judging.. I have had a good amount of PC's that have used sexuality to their advantage, and I have had PC's used by it. This game is all about deceit, betrayal. Nothing does that better then deciteful shallow relationships.

So in closing, ladies.. don't be so Catty. Fellas, for fuck sake would you let go of my hand...

The End.
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jhunter

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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2004, 03:44:18 PM »
Quote
The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.


Actually this statement can't be true.

Not until we know if (in comparison to earth humans) Zalanthan females have a higher testosterone level -or- Zalanthan males have a lower level.

One or the other would have to be the case for them to be equals as far as physical strength and build are concerned.

Which case is it?

WoHop

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« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2004, 03:50:08 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"

Not until we know if (in comparison to earth humans) Zalanthan females have a higher testosterone level -or- Zalanthan males have a lower level.

One or the other would have to be the case for them to be equals as far as physical strength and build are concerned.

Which case is it?


Thing is Jhunter, it's fantasy land.. Testisterone does not have to have a factor in it at all. Zalanthans don't even know what Testosterone is. In fact I could be the feeble, stooped old man and have the skilz of Yoda.

It's just how things are. You really need to just deal with it.
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SRB

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« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2004, 03:52:55 PM »
Personally I think the entire concept is OOC in nature, yet it will likely not change due to the fact that people are set in their ways. So be it.

I try to play my pc's differently. For some, a whore female pc is disgusting. For others, it's a major turn on, and they want to test that package out asap.

Freedom of character is a great thing. Don't automatically assume a stigma is present if your pc is called a whore. Just some thoughts.
 was, am, and always will be. That which dwells under the cast shadows; my Heart of Darkness.

Hicksville Hoochie

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« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2004, 04:19:46 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
Quote
The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.


Actually this statement can't be true.  


Actually, have you ever paid attention to the maximum weight allowed for himans?

I believe the maximum is 8 ten-stones, right? A stone roughly translates to one kilo, which is 2.2lbs.

8x2.2 = 17.6... 17.6x10 = 176 pounds...

Or it could be nine, I can't exactly remember, but under math that still comes out to be only - 198lbs

Now some of these Ahnold descriptions in game actual should have a hard time living up to their buff and chisled appearances, if the commonly heaviest humans in game are roughly the weight of an average cruiserweight wrestler.

Also take into account the subject of fatty PCs. It's pretty obvious a heavy-set PC is well fed - but you also would think a super-buff one would be too, after all, the hard work to create those muscles has to be supported by some kind of nutrition.

So in closing, yes, a Conan the barbarian IMO, and code-wise, is just as rare as a pale skinned southern gal with a chest that would knock a door over if you tugged her bodice away while she was standing close.

--------------------

And to add to the discussion, I am in full agreeance with Comrade's post.

I've played a PC who was very promiscuous, and didn't care to hide the fact that she loved working up a sweat beneath whoever was clean and willing. She was actually quite proud of the fact that she had such a great sex life. She wasn't a pale-skinned f-me at all, was described as pretty, yes, but hardly gameworld-shattering.

Though she really couldn't fathom at all why people considered her such a bad thing because she led a great sex life, especially when the men were all high-fiving and playing the macho stud. Where was her love, where was her high-fives?  :cry:  lol.

And while ICly, she just shrugged it off and figured those talking trash were either kanking an elf, or nothing at all, and obviously needed to loosen up some, I oocly kept scoffing at how - out of place it seemed with what I've always read and seen on the site and forums.

No matter how many people say 'but it's in my character', Comrade has a -very- valid point with his post; because in the same experience I had, I would also notice board rumors speaking of the vnpc populace sharing the same feelings, and when it goes that far, as to say something that -shouldn't- be the thought of the common populace IS the common thought, it's more than just, in the certain character.

proxie

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« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2004, 04:25:43 PM »
I admit it... I refuse to cross the gender barrier. I'm happy playing chicks.

I've played pc's that as a rule, are attractive to look at. Sue me. But, I've tried to keep it specific to the role. The pale skinned ranger with perfect hair just doesn't fly. Now, the lightly tanned merchant with a nice amount of scars on hands and arms from hours of working on making goods and getting sliced up by failures? A little more realistic. My combat orientated chickies are usually practical in their looks, a few well placed scars, toned figures, no sweeping long hairstyles, maybe a tied up braid or bun that can be let down for roleplay's sake if I'm really in love with the idea of this chick having hair.

One thing some of my pc's have in common is that sex is the second form of currency next to 'sid.  Why wouldn't it be? It's kindof universal, almost everybody gets randy, and not everybody has the 'sid to make their ends meet.  I've not had the guts to play an out and out, coins for a tumble whore, but if it happens, my pc's let it happen and use it to their best advantage.  Does that make me a f-me? Well, if so, bummer. I play ARM for my own enjoyment, to get mixed up in plots and fun and interesting events, not for the approval of a bunch of armchair rp policemen.

Why the feck does anyone care who my girl tumbles? Aren't there real concerns to worry about... like food and water and having enough spice to forget that it's been sandstorming for the 143th day in a row and you can't go out and hunt and your kids are screaming at you cause the little wretches are hungry and your mate you think ran off to Luirs?

The thing that REALLY irritates me is when a pc screws mine and automatically assumes some amount of possession thereafter. Sure! Invite me to live with you. Give me a key. If I'm not playing a nice pc at the moment, you may find yourself attending all night parties to rival a Fale's, with the templars busting in to shut them down, not to mention I'll sell the place of piece by piece to feed my spice habit... It's sex. If your pc met mine a few weeks/days ago, take it for a romp and let it be for crying out loud.

I've always had the impression that a person takes as many bedmates as they want. Perhaps only one, the strongest/cleverest of the bunch, will be the mother/father to offspring, but there's no reason why a person shouldn't dally.  If people are coming down on pc's with this idea. Why? Are they worried if one pc has more than one mate, there won't be any others for them? (Actually, that's a legitimate ic point that could be handled.)  Is it envy? Deal with it IC and check the western civ at the door.


--- proxie
For those who knew him, my husband Jay, known as Becklee from time to time on Arm, died August 17th, 2008, from complications of muscular dystrophy.

Bestatte

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« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2004, 04:49:48 PM »
It also goes with what a Zalanthan might consider attractive. Pale, I was informed after creating my first character, would be considered UNattractive to the average commoner. It's a sign of weakness, someone who can't withstand the world outside of buildings, some sort of sickness. Curves would normally be reserved only for those who can afford to eat regularly, be they successful hunters, merchant family members, nobles, etc. The average city-born and city-bred commoner struggles, and isn't likely to have f-me rounded swishy hips or bodacious tatas. Then you get the ones who have 5 kids and their tits are still perky - in a world where breast pumps don't exist, and neither does baby formula.

I am still of the firm belief that it's the players of SOME of these characters who propagate the stereotype, and play what THEY feel is the "ultimate fantasy woman" in a world where the ultimate fantasy woman is - none of the above. And then they get all upset when people criticize their characters' behaviors ICly - and don't think it's "fair" that our characters make fun of them. Or the men who pick them over the skinny dark-skinned chicks who are obviously NORMAL.

jhunter

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« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2004, 05:08:02 PM »
Quote
Thing is Jhunter, it's fantasy land.. Testisterone does not have to have a factor in it at all. Zalanthans don't even know what Testosterone is. In fact I could be the feeble, stooped old man and have the skilz of Yoda.

It's just how things are. You really need to just deal with it.


Your -completely- missing my point.

If you don't understand what I'm asking, which is a perfectly reasonable question then don't waste my time responding. Thank you.

jhunter

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« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2004, 05:12:18 PM »
Quote
Or it could be nine, I can't exactly remember, but under math that still comes out to be only - 198lbs


A nearly two hundred pound person with low body fat can be very muscular.
 I don't believe that you are understanding my point either.

A buff, really muscular man on Zalanthas...is just that...buff and really muscular for a man on Zalanthas.

The same as a slim pale-skinned woman on Zalanthas is that way when compared to other Zalanthan women.

You guys understand what I'm saying now?

sarahjc

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« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2004, 05:36:19 PM »
I sudo agree with Comrade Canadia to an extent. Why doesn' t the sexy, pampered, voluptuous woman not fit in with Zalanthas?? Are you saying that nobles don't lead a pampered life, that some bards don't? That a woman that knows she is attractive and not very good with a sword wouldn't find some other way to live a comfortable lifestyle. That Zalanthas is without pretty people?? Do you honestly think that all of Zalathans are warriors and hunters when the majority of the population never leave the cities? I know the men do, but that's just not true.  :wink:

People are always so quick to judge that someone else does not play the right kind of PC. I love the women in this game that are so quick to jump on the F-me girls saying that they prevent the game from being "realistic" and cause stigmatism's to be formed. When you are the ones pointing the fingers and making the remarks, causing the snipes. And I won't stop placing the blame there.  If you are playing that round hipped, pert chested woman you had better understand that other women will be envious and hate you for it. That  happens in real life too.. It's called Jealousy. Don't take it personal.  How those women make it known to you is something else however. And how men make envy known as well..

In our world men.. they don't attack each others character. The word whore for a man holds no pain. However, the word whore, for a woman holds a stigma..  Making things worse,  men challenge men by calling them things like "pussy, or Bitch" calling them less then men, calling them things that reference a woman, meaning that they are weak. A woman's insult is worse, cause it's bad enough that we are women. So we take it lower and use words like  whore, or slut. And when a man is slighted by a woman, he falls on familiar ground using the same words because in our society, a woman's worth is still somewhat bases on her virtue. Sad, but true.

But none of the words above really fit Zalanthas. None of them jive with the game world. Yet we all still need to get the point across and we all still need a "remark" from time to time that is hurtful and causes deep insult. So.. How do you do it?

Women are competitive by nature, many women, deep down inside feel that worth is somewhat judged by physical beauty it's in our blood our nature. Men hold their value on strength and dominance. It's in there nature to do so.  

That scragly woman in the corner snickering at you may be doing so because she thinks you are blowing Lord Long Shank for your silks and a soft bed.  Where as she is too damn ugly and torn up to get Lord Long Shanks attention. His wife might even want to kill you cause she blames you for not being able to get him in the sack to knock her up. And that guy in the corner may hate you because you give Long Shank more attention than you do him and he knows that if he stands up to Long Shank he could be killed on the spot. Funny thing is.. You may not be sexing up Long Shank at all. But none of that matters cause the curve of your smooth hips and sultry good looks is clouding everyone's view. It's not that you are sleeping with Long Shank that's got them upset. It's that you have something they all want.  

So how do we fix this?? How do we say.. ok,  whore its the wrong word.. How can we use other ways to express that hate and jealously without the stigma of our Earthly views? I really don't know the answer .. I am just voicing what I think is the real problem.

I would say think about it the next time that you throw out an insult or make a snicker. And be sure that you are snickering without personal prejudice, but with that of your PC. .
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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2004, 06:25:49 PM »
Allow me to reiterate...

Quote from: "Cuusardo"
The point of this thread is that many people are taking a sexist, Judaeo-Christian double standard of the real world and putting them into a society in which it does not belong.  Female PCs are being looked down upon for having sex, and males are not.
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« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2004, 06:44:07 PM »
1. I only have problems OOCly with F-me PCs is when they don't fit their damn profession. Long hair, flawless skin, beautiful nails on a Bynner? BULLSHIT. That'll make me think, "Damn, she's not taking into account the game world." and It'll make my character say, "How do you stay so fancied up? You skipping latrine duty and sparring and never taking a contract? Or are you a magicker? MAGICKER! AAHHH RUN!"

2. A lot of people overlook the massive amount of F-me male PCs. Don't. They should be scoffed at -just- as much, if you're going to scoff. My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people? Granted hunters and fighters won't likely be fat, but it isn't much of a stretch that for most other professions that don't involve aerobics as part of their daily lives are going to have a bit of pudge!

3. For most commoners, I think attractiveness will have less to do with typical western beauty and more to do with effectiveness, profession, income, social status, etc. For all my PCs, beauty hasn't been the deciding factor in their choice of interest. Maybe for just a romp it holds more sway. But for choice of mate? It's easily below income, social status, and what they can offer in such a partnership. I had one guy who'd only date a woman that could at least stand up to him in the sparring ring.

4. All my PCs have had different preferences for how they like to go about thier sexual life. Some wanted quality over quantity. Some weren't interested in sex at all. Some wanted anything they could get. Some wouldn't waste time with anyone that wasn't worthy of a mate. But the key thing all my PCs believed, and is suggested by the docs, is that how some one else runs their sex life doesn't make two shits to you. It may not be the way you do things, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I would go as far to stretch this into real life. Mind your own damn business.

5. I don't understand Jhunter's question. He wants to know about testosterone levels and crap. You're going too deep, man. The code says men and women are equal, the docs say they're equal. They're equal. You make up your own chemical justification if you need it. Then share it, we'd like to hear.

6. I don't understand how this thread has lasted so long. The documents are very explicit about this. And if you don't want to follow the docs, special app or go home. Thanks.

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« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2004, 06:44:12 PM »
Quote from: "Cuusardo"
Allow me to reiterate...

Quote from: "Cuusardo"
The point of this thread is that many people are taking a sexist, Judaeo-Christian double standard of the real world and putting them into a society in which it does not belong.  Female PCs are being looked down upon for having sex, and males are not.


I guess I just don't see this often enough to think it's a problem. I don't see female PCs being looked down upon for having sex. I see *specific* female PCs being looked down on for using weakness, reliance on sexual charisma and "need for the man" as a means to get ahead, when the documents state very clearly that women are not the "weaker" sex, nor do they "need" a man any more (or less) than a man "needs" a woman, nor are they supposed to be any more or less sexually charismatic than men.

That, I feel, is the real issue. If other people think it's just a matter of sex, then I think other people are putting way too much value on sex, given the genre of the game.

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« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2004, 06:49:34 PM »
I agree with Bestatte, pretty much.

I find it somewhat trite to observe weak, voluptuos females playing the damsel in distress when it's been stated clearly through documentation that they are physically EQUAL to men. If that were so, why do we see so many "ladies".

Snap! I forgot the exception to the rule! Doh!  :roll:
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« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2004, 07:33:26 PM »
Everybody knows, I think, that men have penises and women have vaginas ( I recently learned this). But, while this holds true in-game, the playerbase must understand that the gameworld has rules and laws just like our (your) reality. While some rules can be bent, others CANNOT be broken. True, there are some (many) exceptions occurring in the game. However, the exception is not the rule (hence the title: exception). The current rule of Armageddon regarding gender is: Women and Men are equal in a physical and social aspect. Simply put, you CANNOT argue against this idea because it is clearly emphasized and stated in the documentation. Every immortal who posted on this thread, supported this idea - what more is there to discuss?

People raise ideas such as - "women give birth to children; therefore, they are physically inferior to men both in our reality and armageddon." Once again, with feeling this time, you cannot attribute RL theories (let me underline the idea of a theory - althought theories are supported by numerous evidence, many are proven wrong, if not completely, then partially incomplete) any more than you can attribute MAGICK to our (your) reality. If you -could- do that, Armageddon's world would be titled Earth, and you would be living in Zalanthas.

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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2004, 08:18:04 PM »
Quote from: "Agent_137"

 My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people.  


I'm not your friend and I'm not a new player. I don't play anymore because of you.

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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2004, 08:19:06 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
Quote from: "Agent_137"

 My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people.  


I'm not your friend and I'm not a new player. I don't play anymore because of you.



...and I wasn't logged in.
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« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2004, 08:21:40 PM »
YOU may not see this sort of discrimnation happen, but it does happen quite a bit more often than it should.

And I keep repeating the point because people have taken this thread and used it to bitch and gripe about f-mes.  That is not the reason the original poster started this thread.
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« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2004, 08:21:41 PM »
Quote
Anonymous wrote:
Agent_137 wrote:

My friend who's a new player asked me why there's so few fat people.  


I'm not your friend and I'm not a new player. I don't play anymore because of you.



...and I wasn't logged in.


What the Man said,

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« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2004, 08:31:32 PM »
Quote
5. I don't understand Jhunter's question. He wants to know about testosterone levels and crap. You're going too deep, man. The code says men and women are equal, the docs say they're equal. They're equal. You make up your own chemical justification if you need it. Then share it, we'd like to hear.


My point is that...if you all go back and read the post I quoted from...someone had said that a muscular man...or a slim woman were out of place.
This statement simply is just untrue...the whole testosterone thing was a failed attempt apparently at trying to point out that a muscular man or a slim woman are just that...when compared to other Zalanthans.

There is nothing wrong or out of place with people making such pcs.

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« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2004, 08:36:14 PM »
Quote from: "Agent_137"
4. All my PCs have had different preferences for how they like to go about thier sexual life. Some wanted quality over quantity. Some weren't interested in sex at all. Some wanted anything they could get. Some wouldn't waste time with anyone that wasn't worthy of a mate. But the key thing all my PCs believed, and is suggested by the docs, is that how some one else runs their sex life doesn't make two shits to you. It may not be the way you do things, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.


Yep.
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« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2004, 08:37:22 PM »

When you deal with political figures, out of place character... or out of theme characters -WILL- wreck a whole plotline that you've spent your precious time on.  This is -NOT- a fun thing to have to deal with, and makes your time and effort in playing this game seem WASTED and you will not want to put such effort into the game again, only to have it ruined by some punkass 12 year old who wants to seem k00l and impress his buddies.

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« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2004, 08:40:51 PM »
Dirr--of course we can challenge a false idea that's present in the docs!   I don't care who says it, it's not true.  You would have to change the laws of physics.

We're playing a game, but it's a realistic game in a realistic earth-like world.  Magick and other fantasy elements aside, we should keep everything else as realistic as possible.  Besides the fact that, even if women were physically weaker on Zalanthas, it would change nothing!  You don't need to use physical equality as an excuse to have women as social equals in Zalanthas, or anywhere else!

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« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2004, 08:43:11 PM »
Just because on average women are physically equal to men (in the sense of strength, endurance, etc.) doesn't mean every woman is physically on par with every man or vice versa.   There are relatively weak women.  And relatively weak men.  And a weak person who turns that weakness into an advantage through manipulation is a very Zalanthan thing.  Likewise a strong person who feigns weakness for tactical reasons.
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« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2004, 08:50:04 PM »
*SIGH*

Okay guys, it's time to go back to roleplaying school.

IC vs. OOC

If I need to explain these concepts you're playing the wrong game.

Disliking an f-me PC is an OUT OF CHARACTER THING.

Your TOUGH HARSH DESERT SURVIVOR doesn't see a porcelain-skinned princess and think 'Wow, somebody's fantasies are transparent.  I bet she's a slut.'  Why?  Because that's an OUT OF CHARACTER CONCEPTION.

Bestatte's earlier point about pale skin being a sign of weakness, although at least ATTEMPTS to make sense of things, doesn't jive with me.  In every culture I've ever even heard of, signs of wealth are what make people attractive.  But I digress.  

Porcelain skinned princesses and heavyweight champions of the universe are something I think we need less of, especially from commoners.  But it's not THAT BIG A DEAL.  The gender issues I'm talking about here are a far bigger deal, and are NOT CAUSED by these archetypes.  Taking an ooc dislike of these archetypes, and then applying it to your character is BAD ROLEPLAY.  Call me pretentious all you want - I'm a roleplayer.  We're all pretentious and I feel very strongly about this.

When you call another character a slut, and use that term in a negative context you are not following armag documents.  I don't care how you justify it.  F-me PCs do not cause sexism.  Saying 'I wouldn't be a sexist if she wasn't such a slut' is such a fallacious concept I can barely wrap my mind around it.

Stop complaining about f-me PCs with relation to this thread, it's not RELEVANT.  No matter what a woman looks like in game, applying your out of character dislike of her appearance in game, and then calling her a slut in a negative context is poor roleplay.  God, people act like half of the game world is he-mans and porcelain princesses.  Dealing with complex things like our conception of gender can only better the game world.  Calling someone a slut in a negative way should have as much stigma attached to it as an elf riding a kank.  

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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2004, 08:52:24 PM »
Too many people are missing the point of this post...

The point Comrade was making is that people are taking an OOC aspect of our lives, influenced by Christianity and bringing it into the game world, using it to try and discredit players for doing something that the documents themselves state is -completely- okay and usually normal amidst the game world.

Simple explanation of it...

-A female who has a buncha sex in Zalanthas, is NOT a bad person. Being a whore is NOT a bad profession. In fact, the right whores can effectively put themselves in a social scale that makes him or her politically more popular and preferred than just about any common person in the city of Allanak.

-A WOMAN having a buncha sex is NO different than a MAN having a buncha sex. She shouldn't need to be discreet, and worry about being insulted for it, just a she shouldn't.

This topic isn't about a target on F-me PC's and their unrealism to the world. It's about the fact that the moment it's discovered that a female PC has had more than one sexual partner, she's looked down upon as a whore, while the guy is crotch grabbing and being made out as a 'player'.

That shouldn't be the case, a man bragging about his latest score wouldn't be viewed as any different than his latest score bragging about hers.

----

And to touch on the subject of female PCs being the only ones to sleep their way to the top, that's a hard thing to try and make accusations on considering the NPC and VNPC population. How would one know whether or not High Lieutenent of Funhouse got there by skills, or by kanking the Lord/Lady/Noble/Templar In charge of the military of that organization?

Half the NPCs higher than your characters could of got there that way for all we know, just because the Pc population leans to one side of the situation doesn't mean it's the common practice. So instead of just looking down on her for possibly sleeping her way up, why not look down on this NPC for possibly doing the same thing?

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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2004, 08:55:21 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
Quote
5. I don't understand Jhunter's question. He wants to know about testosterone levels and crap. You're going too deep, man. The code says men and women are equal, the docs say they're equal. They're equal. You make up your own chemical justification if you need it. Then share it, we'd like to hear.


My point is that...if you all go back and read the post I quoted from...someone had said that a muscular man...or a slim woman were out of place.
This statement simply is just untrue...the whole testosterone thing was a failed attempt apparently at trying to point out that a muscular man or a slim woman are just that...when compared to other Zalanthans.

There is nothing wrong or out of place with people making such pcs.


You need to go back and read my post yourself as I never said they were out of place. I said they are abnormal. As in the far end of the spectrums. As in not the normal middle ground. As in not the standard commoner. Here, let me requote my original words.

Quote
Some females will be weak, some will be strong, some will be juuussssssst right. Some males will be weak, some strong and some just right. The norm is the middle where most would be. The muscle-bound male is an abnormalty just as the weak, pale-skinned maiden (loath that word IG) is an abnormalty.


Or here, layman terms, they are the exception to the rule.
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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2004, 09:12:06 PM »
Quote
Dirr--of course we can challenge a false idea that's present in the docs! I don't care who says it, it's not true. You would have to change the laws of physics.


How does gender relate to laws of physics?
Both genders are equal socially and physically on Zalanthas (Immortals are welcome to correct me on this).

Fine, if you're into REALISM, answer this question:

How can gigantic insects exist?
Fact is, they cannot. That is why the next evolutionary step occurred on Earth; because insects could only reach a certain size before their exoskeleton becomes too thick, too heavy, and too massive to move. Therefore, the idea of giant insects is absolutely ludicrous. Yet, nonetheless, very little players complain about that. Realism, as you and I know it, does not apply to Zalanthas/Armageddon.

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« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2004, 09:19:10 PM »
Kudos, Dave, Kudos.

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« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2004, 09:35:00 PM »
Quote
You need to go back and read my post yourself as I never said they were out of place.



One of the meanings of the word abnormal is "out of place".

Ayashah

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« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2004, 09:46:11 PM »
ab·nor·mal    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (b-nôrml)
adj.
Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant.


Main Entry: 1ab·nor·mal
Pronunciation: (')ab-'nor-m&l
Function: adjective
1 : deviating from the normal or average; especially : departing from the usual or accepted standards of social behavior
2 : characterized by mental retardation or disorder —ab·nor·mal·ly /-m&-lE/ adverb


Main Entry: 2abnormal
Function: noun
: an abnormal person


abnormal

\Ab*nor"mal\, a. [For earlier anormal.F. anormal, LL. anormalus for anomalus, Gr. ?. Confused with L. abnormis. See Anomalous, Abnormous, Anormal.] Not conformed to rule or system; deviating from the type; anomalous; irregular. ``That deviating from the type; anomalous; irregular. '' --Froude.


abnormal

adj 1: not normal; not typical or usual or regular or conforming to a norm; "abnormal powers of concentration"; "abnormal amounts of rain"; "abnormal circumstances"; "an abnormal interest in food" [ant: normal] 2: departing from the normal in e.g. intelligence and development; "they were heartbroken when they learned their child was abnormal"; "an abnormal personality" [ant: normal] 3: much greater than the normal; "abnormal profits"; "abnormal ambition"



Hmmm, I must have the wrong dictionary.


cast    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (kst)
v. cast, cast·ing, casts
v. tr.

To throw (something, especially something light): The angler cast the line.
To throw with force; hurl: waves that cast driftwood far up on the shore. See Synonyms at throw.
To shed; molt.
To throw forth; drop: cast anchor.
To throw on the ground, as in wrestling.
To deposit or indicate (a ballot or vote).
To turn or direct: All eyes were cast upon the speaker.
To cause to fall onto or over something or in a certain direction, as if by throwing: candles casting light; cast aspersions on my character; findings that cast doubt on our hypothesis.
To bestow; confer: “The government I cast upon my brother” (Shakespeare).

To roll or throw (dice, for example).
To draw (lots).
To give birth to prematurely: The cow cast a calf.
To cause (hunting hounds) to scatter and circle in search of a lost scent.

To choose actors for (a play, for example).
To assign a certain role to (an actor): cast her as the lead.
To assign an actor to (a part): cast each role carefully.
To form (liquid metal, for example) into a particular shape by pouring into a mold.
To give a form to; arrange: decided to cast the book in three parts.
To contrive; devise: cast a plan.
To calculate or compute; add up (a column of figures).
To calculate astrologically: cast my horoscope.
To warp; twist: floorboards cast by age.
Nautical. To turn (a ship); change to the opposite tack.


There's different meanings to a lot of words that can be used in a multitude of ways. My apologies that you assumed I meant something that I clearly did not.
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« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2004, 11:06:29 PM »
Here's a couple of things I actually see in the game:

1) "Pretty young things" behaving very dainty and sweet and lovely and pale and porcelain and fluttery and demure and weak, looking for *A* man that she can depend on and call her own, who would never stray from her or even think about ever being with another woman again. The ones who target almost any male, of almost any race, as long as the PC has the word "muscles" in his main description.

2) Sexy women who are sexy because their personality is sexy, regardless of their looks, without any need for emotes of their long lushious thighs gleaming delicately with just the faintest pearlescent hint of womanly dew.

3) Males who take the bait of #1, and allow the women to keep them on a tight leash.

RARELY do I ever see a man behaving like the woman in #1. RARELY do I ever see a woman behaving like the man in #3.

I think this is -why- we have such a division in treatment of the genders. Because it's the players who reinforce the stereotypes themselves. The ones who are the most obvious are the ones who will draw the most attention to their style. Nothing wrong with any of this stuff really - as long as they realize that #1 and #3 are "acceptable" but NOT "common," and that people who observe this type of behavior might comment about it, AND that their comments will be just as appropriate as the behavior attracting the comments.

That goes for either side. A woman who grabs her crotch? I've never seen one of those. A man who flutters his eyelashes at a good looking woman? Never seen one of those either. If they exist, they've kept it away from me. There are gender differences. There is ALSO gender equality. The two are completely seperate things, and I really wish people would understand that.

Also *most* men can't cross their legs like women can. So you won't be seeing too many guys flashing their legs by letting the hem of their kilt fall over their long luscious muscular thighs that glimmer with the faintest sheen of masculine dew. And until the staff tells us all that men in Zalanthas don't have testicles, I'm going to continue accepting this as a fact.

There are other differences that will make women capable of "thrusting themselves" sexually in ways that men cannot. And ways men can thrust THEMselves sexually in ways that women cannot. Grabbing one's crotch, to me, is not something I can see a guy doing if he's trying to find a date. So no, I'm not gonna be calling the crotch-grabber a man-whore.

I dunno. I get kinda sick of people trying to insist that it's my christian ethics giving me these ideas. I'm not christian. Never was, never wanted to be, never will be. I don't even agree with the jewish stuff that was crammed down my throat when I was a kid. So please - leave the judeo-christian ethics theory out of this. It's irrelevent, at least in my case.

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« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2004, 11:31:25 PM »
But even with all of the things you listed, how does it make it okay to call any of those women a whore in game, and mean it as an insult, when going by Zalanthan culture, it isn't an insult?

No one is arguing that out of place characters can be silly, and mess with the atmosphere, but does it make it any better to fall into their game and see them labelled as a whore like it's a bad thing?

Yes, I know you're probably thinking my post makes no sense at all; but that's because the post isn't meant to be arguing that. It's meant to be arguing the fact that -WHORE- is not a bad thing for women in game. There is no bad stigma to it, unless it's multi-racial, north-south or something looked down upon of the like.

It's not just the porcelain princesses getting labelled as whores for being a bit easy in game, it's all sorts of female characters who happen to have a little fun, which is what I figure has Comrade posting this for. People are bringing -that- aspect of our real lives into the game, when they shouldn't be.

Ivory skin = could easily be an albino-type mutation amongst the many of the world. And I have seen just as many MALE characters with this as I have females, so it's not just the women doing it.

Whore as a bad thing = No excuse for it to be. No mutation makes being loose a bad thing for a woman, nothing about it is abnormal, she likes some sweaty knaking as much as the next guy or gal, and that's perfectly okay, because it's the norm.

gofmk

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« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2004, 11:48:47 PM »
In my opinion.. IG.. I believe since most of us are average commoners and are short-lived, we make the most of life. Take all the 'sid we can get, the best equipment we can afford, all the ass we can find, spice.. alcohol..  take all of life's luxuries.. it only makes sense.. *shrug* That's my take on it.  :wink:
(gofmk :arrow: F-me PC!)
he love that you have found is the love that you can never find, because it's the love that is never able to be found.

Comrade Canadia

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« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2004, 01:06:12 AM »
Bestatte, reinforcing gneder stereotypes doesn't encourage sexist behaviour.  How many times can I go over this?  And also, your personal ethics weren't 'made up' on the spot, they come from somewhere.  Judeo-Christian ethics are what drive North American society, and if you claim that your own ethical base has absolutely nothing to do with them, I'm going to point and laugh.  I am a STAUNCH atheist, and I still accept the fact that my beliefs are based on Judeo-Christian ethics because it's what I was taught while growing up.  

ANYWAYS.

There are obvious difference between the genders, but the mud isn't interested in correcting all of them.  You're sort of putting words into my mouth here, and building stupid strawmen.  Trying to force me to argue about women using 'the thrusting motion' is ridiculous.

All of the little differences between gender cannot be accounted for, and frankly, nobody wants to completely equal them out.  What I'm talking about here is a very specific behaviour which can easily be stopped by NOT DOING IT.  The game HAS to function on these sort of artifical impositions on our behaviour, because completely forgetting our RL value system is impossible.  We just have to watch for ways in which said value system impacts the game negatively, and then nip it in the bud.

If someone is sleeping around, don't harp on them about it because it's not a bad thing in game.  FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HOW DIFFICULT IS THAT?!   Puritan attitudes about sex, specificalyl with regards to women, shouldn't exist on armag.  It's pretty fucking blatantly stated in the game documentation.  If you disagree, and would like to openly encourage a male-dominant mud... uh, I'll first off be confused, but alright.

If every f-me PC on the mud vanished tomorrow, we would still deal with the attitudes I am talking about.  If every musclebound he-man vanished, we would still deal with the attitudes I am talking about.  They might tend to be obvious TARGETS for the behaviour I'm decrying, but not the only ones.  The double standard of praise for men who get laid, and slander for women who get laid is what I am talking about here.  

Hate f-me pcs all you want, but don't use their behaviour as an excuse for poor roleplay.  Just because a character acts in a way that might get her called a slut RL doesn't mean that you should react in game the same way.  As much as unrealistic characters in the mud might harm the game world, inappropriate responses to them are just as bad, if not worse.  

No, men and women are not 'exactly equal' on armag.  They're obviously quite different in a number of ways, but some of those ways can be reconciled.  In my opinion, and apparently the mud's opinion, they SHOULD.  Women should not be punished for having sex while men are praised for it.  That simple.

-Dave
-Giving up soon.
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jhunter

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« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2004, 02:51:59 AM »
Quote
Whore as a bad thing = No excuse for it to be. No mutation makes being loose a bad thing for a woman, nothing about it is abnormal, she likes some sweaty knaking as much as the next guy or gal, and that's perfectly okay, because it's the norm.


 I can see how some might see having sex for money as being pathetic.

Male or female.

There's nothing in the docs that say people don't look down on prostitutes...male or female.

Just something I thought I'd point out.

Gender equality has nothing to do with people looking down on prostitution.

wizturbo

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« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2004, 02:54:44 AM »
I think the 'norm' however, would be that people don't mind prostitutes.  In fact, prostitutes are probably a higher social class then most professions, depending on their clientel.  A prostitute that deals with merchants primarily, would be considerably higher social class then your average commoner.  Prostitutes that have noble patrons would be quite rare, as they'd likely be taken as concubines, and concubines are DEFINITELY higher social class then most commoners.

jhunter

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« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2004, 03:00:17 AM »
Quote
Prostitutes that have noble patrons would be quite rare, as they'd likely be taken as concubines, and concubines are DEFINITELY higher social class then most commoners.


Right, and once they are a concubine...most likely they will no longer be a prostitute.

Hicksville Hoochie

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« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2004, 03:29:32 AM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
Quote
Whore as a bad thing = No excuse for it to be. No mutation makes being loose a bad thing for a woman, nothing about it is abnormal, she likes some sweaty knaking as much as the next guy or gal, and that's perfectly okay, because it's the norm.


 I can see how some might see having sex for money as being pathetic.

Male or female.

There's nothing in the docs that say people don't look down on prostitutes...male or female.

Just something I thought I'd point out.

Gender equality has nothing to do with people looking down on prostitution.


Uhhhh... What makes it pathetic?

If prostitution is looked down on, then why is a concubine ranked just below a Bastard noble, with Senior merchants, militia captain's ect... on the social ranking's list? They're simply high class prostitutes.

But think about it on this level...

Sex is an okay and accepted thing in life, no real bad stigma attached to it.  So why would it be bad to drop some sid on someone who is skilled at doing such? How could that possibly be a pathetic thing? Now if a Kadian was paying a flea-ridden rinthi for sex, I can understand the KADIAN being looked down upon, but not the whore themselves. Saying it's pathetic to get money for doing something normal is like saying it's pathetic to sell donuts, when everyone can pretty much make them on their own if they want.

I personally think Barzalene said it best when she referred to a prostitute as a man or woman who is simply a merchant who deals in non-essential goods.

Sandstorm Phoenix

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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2004, 06:26:23 AM »
I reserve the right for my PC to:

1) Say nasty things about people in power, especially if they are in more power than s/he is at the time.  If spreading a rumor that Miss Femme Fatale screwed her way to the top diminishes her accomplishments any, then by all means I will do it.  You think she'll agree to put her equal physical potential to the test by dueling me?   Right.   Hit 'em where it hurts.  If the word slut isn't supposed to hurt, then they got nothing to fear.  Blow it off and laugh. I'll find another word that does hurt.

2)  Snicker and laugh at any other character's sexual habits.  Out here in the real world, I snicker and laugh at the sexual accomplishments of one Don Juan friend of mine. . . as much as I snicker and laugh at the sexual misadventures of another friend. . . as much as they snicker and laugh at mine.   My character will most likey make fun of your character whether or not you have sex virtually or constantly, with your own race or with any willing object.  It isn't about Judeo-Christian ethics influencing me OOCly, it is about finding what makes another character uncomfortable and laughing about it.    What, you want me to be nice to you?

3)  Hold a double standard when it comes to his/her sexual habits.  You want to talk about realism, double standards are realistic.   I will continue to have them and glory in having them.  Yes, my character does and will think less of a whole lot of people.  Included on his/her list of "People I like to feel better than" are those who have public habits he finds humorous.   (see #2)


4)  Use words that affect the listener exactly how I want them to.   I don't care if "feck" "dang" and "pooie" become documented as the hardest cursewords in sirihish.   I will still call someone a fucking moron, scream damnit when I smash my thumb, and step in steaming piles of shit.   Words have power and certain words have more power than others.  Since we speak English and since sirihish doesn't really exist, I'll use the English words that will invoke the emotions I want them to.  





OOCly, I will continue to roll my eyes whenever I see a female in positions of influence (rarely ever is it true power, guys. . seriously) who got so because of a great main description and the willingness to netsex indiscriminately.   If it is so common and loved and accepted, then I want to see more men doing it.  . . then I'll -still- roll my eyes.

Cenghiz

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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2004, 06:51:19 AM »
Once I had a d-elf female character. She found out that another d-elf of another tribe was involved in a human..
So what did she feel? She was jealous. Another male, chose not me, but a filthy human!!! She felt her heart broken watching them kissing each other. But still, when people started making remarks of the situation in a human tavern, she wore her bone-knuckled gloves and offered a hand in beating the humans to the other d-elf. She was a d-elf, she was the high race, so no other filthy slow-moving humans had the right to mess with a d-elf even in a pit full of them.
So I believe, being jealous would be OK but making remarks? Why? To have it noticed that you're jealous?
Before a staff member corrects me, I will keep on believing that other people's choices are none of your business. You may decide to poison the female to have that muscular male for yourself. Same as poisoning someone to acquire his 'sids. Sex is just a pleasure you may want for yourself. If someone's doing something you won't; why to care? It's better to spare your time to wink at that cute guy/gal sitting at the next table.
I don't know why this discussion still didn't end.
quote="Ghost"]Despite the fact he is uglier than all of us, and he has a gay look attached to all over himself, and his being chubby (I love this word) Cenghiz still gets most of the girls in town. I have no damn idea how he does that.[/quote]

Ayashah

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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2004, 06:55:00 AM »
Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix"

OOCly, I will continue to roll my eyes whenever I see a female in positions of influence (rarely ever is it true power, guys. . seriously)


*blinks*

So, in your mind, no female in positions of influence rarely ever have power but are a figure head? (speaking for on ARM as I hope that's not your attitude in RL)

I could name quite a few past female PCs that had 'true' power. I can name some that arent obviously in 'positions of influence' that have 'true' power. I think, because the ratio of male players appears to be more than female players, that males appear in power more often than females.
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Sandstorm Phoenix (lazy)

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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2004, 08:21:41 AM »
No, Ayasha, sorry. . I should have put that parenthetical at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle.   I've -been- that female PC in true power.

What I meant was those who got where they are with a great main description and a willingness to bump'n'grind rarely end up in positions of true power.    Not never, just rarely.  I can think of one exception to that statement but usually the female PCs who have ended up with real power in the game, didn't rise to it in that fashion.

Ayashah

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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2004, 10:06:21 AM »
Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix (lazy)"
No, Ayasha, sorry. . I should have put that parenthetical at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle.   I've -been- that female PC in true power.

What I meant was those who got where they are with a great main description and a willingness to bump'n'grind rarely end up in positions of true power.    Not never, just rarely.  I can think of one exception to that statement but usually the female PCs who have ended up with real power in the game, didn't rise to it in that fashion.


Ahh, okay, that makes more sense. :)  I was boggled. heeh :)

I agree with that statement then :)
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My 2 sids

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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2004, 10:27:13 AM »
Ok, let’s try some IC reasons prostitutes would be looked down upon:

 :arrow: Some jobs simply carry a stigma attached to them.  A byn sergeant might be extremely skilled in what they do; does that mean everyone in game is supposed to accept them as a note-worthy person?  Of coarse not!   Like all hunters/farmers/guards/etc. they use their body as their work.  They aren’t making anything, they aren’t using political means, just their body.  So I’d say that people who don’t accept physical and body type jobs would probably look down at prostitutes as well.  

 :arrow: If sex is so common as Quickstart would imply  :roll: , then sex is cheap.  There might highly talented people offering sex; but it’s still offering nothing but a few minutes of entertainment.  Half the population probably doesn’t have time for relaxing and playing around and the other half probably view it the same they would as a card player or maybe a bard (some cities hold bards in higher regard than other cities)

Why can’t people “sleep their way to the top”?  First, we need to understand who is on top of the society.  Money doesn’t make status; bloodlines do.  Society in game is run by well-established families, not individuals.

 :arrow: Families are rich enough they have sex all the time.  It’s extremely hard to bribe a family member with just money; they already have money.

 :arrow: Families are very careful to separate sex into pleasure and business.  Business wise that’s why there are contract marriages where the family makes out.  Pleasure sex can happen without having to pay in “favors”.  So it would be almost unheard of to mix pleasure sex into business.  Statistically, I think people need to remember concubines and catamites aren’t that common; esp. for people who started out a typical whore.

 :arrow: Regardless of what is known to the public, families keep strict discipline over their own members.  Any relationship could potentially affect the family (like someone trying to manipulate a family member by sex) would be closely monitored by the family and probably ended rather quickly.
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My 2 sids

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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2004, 10:42:57 AM »
Does anyone else see the irony about saying that there are massive orgies all over the world (yes, Quickstart does make us a sex-mud) and yet people don’t say “hello” because they don’t trust each other?!  Tell me how it makes sense that people would trust perfect strangers to build relationships and sex encounters??
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Angela Christine

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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2004, 10:51:04 AM »
Prostitution?  Meh.  Selling a service for cash, no worse than any other independant mercenary type.  Yes, a prostitute that becomes a concubine isn't a prostitute any more, but a mercenenary that takes a job with the Borsail Wyverns isn't a merc any more either.  In both cases you are in the service of a single employer, and on your honour not to take any jobs on the side without express permission.  Some customers might be considered pitiful, if it is believed that higher prostitutes is the only way they can get a little loving.  Then again, some people would consider needing a bodyguard to be pitiful, since it shows that you are unable to protect yourself.  If you can make more money as a prostitute than you could at the Zalanthan equivilent of McDonalds, good for you, that's using your strengths.  Both prostitutes and mercenaries should plan for their futures though, because chances are that you won't be able to make top-dollar in that carreer for more than a few years.

 * * *

Porcelain skinned beauties?  Not a problem for me.  Maybe they don't go outside much, or maybe they have a skin mutation that blocks UV, preventing the skin from reacting with either burning or tanning -- that would be a pro-survival mutation.  Barring mutations, maintaining a "F-me" description should take some effort, but it is far from impossible.  First you need an excuse to be living slightly above subsistance level, like most PCs do.  Then, instead of spending that extra cash on elite gear, you spend your money on soap, oils, extra water for washing (a sponge bath can make a little water go a long way) and maybe some perfumes or other scenting agents.  You also need to buy protective clothing like a cloak, veil, gloves, and maybe a parasol (and since you want to show off that skin you take off the protective cloathing when you go indoors, and put it on again every single time you go outdoors, which is a pain in the ass but not especially difficult).

Juvenile features can be a pro-survival trait, as long as there are people willing to take care of you.  For the most part F-me descriptions express juvenile beauty: soft skin, little or no body hair, no wrinkles, no sags, a full set of nice white teeth, big eyes, helplessness, light musculature, etc.  These are things you expect to find in children and adolecents, and some people find them attractive in adults (hence all the young teenage fashion models).  Mammals are programed to want to take care of babies, and things that look like babies, otherwise we'd all eat our young when they were a week old, just to get some sleep.  :twisted:  Some people stay baby-faced as adults, and choose to take advantage of that.  Slap on an hour-glass figure or a massive member and you've got yourself a grade-A peice of meat.

Of course if this is a mutation or genetic, then it ought to happen as often to boys as to girls.  The NPC population does sport a fair number of pretty, weak-looking males, so I'm happy.

 * * *


Muscle-bound freaks?  Not a huge problem either, though they should be as rare as the pretty young things.  Getting the bulky muscle of Hurcules or Conan takes a lot of food from a young age, plus ample supplies of high-protien, high-calorie food while training, the leisure time and resources to waste time on exercises that make you bulkier and more muscular looking (without necessarily making you any more effective at putting those muscles to work) and possibly some chemical enhancement.  I'm not talking the "normal" musculature you might find on a blacksmith or a stoneworker, but the sort of bulk that goes way past fitness and really starts heading towards dangerous -- those vein-popping freaks that win body-building competitions.  It's ok for dwarves, muls and giants, but is wierd in humans and downright obscene in half-elves or elves.  Outside of people raised in military Houses and slaves raised as gladiators, it is as out-of-place as dewy skinned beauties.  Not impossible, but rare and requiring a lot of upkeep.  Admired by some, reviled by others as an obvious waste of resources.


 * * *

Plumbing isn't an issue for me either.  In most Earth primates the males are noticably bigger and stronger, on average, than the females of the same species.  That isn't the case in many other species, including some mammals, no one thinks a momma bear is a big weakling.  Even if they are built more or less the same, the differences aren't as big biologically as they are made out to be.  

In highschool they made us take something called the Canada fitness test.  I freely admit that I sucked mightily in many of the catagories, especially the ones that had to do with sprinting.  However, in the strength test (measured with a handheld squeeze thingie) my score was in the 90th percentile for girls my age, and the 50th percentile for boys my age.  That means that I was stronger than 90% of girls, but also stronger than 50% of boys.  Theoretically I could have thumb-wrestled the hell out of half the boys I knew.  :D  And that is in a society where strenth is strongly pushed as a virtue for boys, but not pushed for girls.  Most boys will be stronger than most girls, but very few boys will be stronger then every girl, and very few girls will be weaker than every boy.  There is a huge overlap.


I also submit that each of the 4 stats stands for a huge range of things.  

Agility covers manual dexterity and the ability to do standing backflips, microsurgery and bellydancing, the ability to hold a paintbrush with your toes and the ability to dodge bullets.  It probably has something to do with kinsthetic sense, and the other senses to a lesser degree.

Endurance is the ability to resist punches, resist poisons, resist disease, survive childbirth, survive a sword thrust to the belly, longevity, resistance to pain, survive falling off the shieldwall, chop a cord of wood, run a long way, general health, survive famine, survive drought, to resist passing out from psionic activity, etc.  Someone with middling endurance might not be "average" at all those thing, she might be very good at somethings and very poor at others.  Nice springy bones would help you survive falls, but wouldn't be useful against poison.  A fat reserve will help you survive famine, but won't help you run from Allanak to Luir's.

Strength affects how much you can carry, how hard you hit, what kind of equipment you can use, what you can benchpress, what you can shove, how well you can hold a door closed, how good you are at tug-of-war, how firm your grip is, how high you can jump straight up (fancy jumps also require dexterity) how hard you kick, how good you are at standing your ground against a hit, how far you can hurl when you projectile vomit,  upper body strenth, lower body strenth, back strength, knee strenth, all kinds of strength.  Obviously a real person may be better at some kinds of strenth than others, so you could consider your strength score to be the average of all your strengths.    

Wisdom.  Ridiculously, wisdom encompasses every single measurable mental activity.  Wisdom is your ability to detect a trapdoor and your ability to do algebra, how quickly you learn new things and how well you remember old things (fluid intelligence and crystilized intelligence), your creativity, mental flexibility, powers of reason, problem solving, debating skills, common sense, spidey sense,  magickal potential, ability to spot and resist or reverse a scam, raw cunning, linguistic ability, statesmanship, spelling, ability to detect if your outfit matches or clashes ie. fashion sense, pattern matching, the ability to compellingly tell a story or make a speech, ability to detect the connections between things, ability to determine quality of objects, ability to detect regional accents and class differences, ability to predict consequences of actions, and on and on.  Very few people, if any, are good at all of these things, so you get the Absent Minded Proffessor archtype, a person who is simultaniously a genius and completely clueless.  

To me this means that it is perfectly reasonable for a person of either gender to get a high score in any statistic, because each one represents a wide range of things.  High agility can just as easily mean the potential to be a demon at needlepoint or brain surgery as it could the potential to master kung fu or ballet, and it doesn't have to mean that you have the potential to excel at all of them.  Stats are coded, but that doesn't remove the ability to roleplay your individual strengths and weaknesses.

 * * *

Offspring.  The production and possession of offspring does fall more heavily toward females than males.  It is easily possible for a male to reproduce without realizing it, but nearly impossible for a female to do the same.  One explanation for the development of marriage is that it allows men to know who their offspring are.  In a world without paternity testing or monogamy, there are likely to be many children whose paternity is unknown.  In a world without marriage and legislated child support, there will probably be a fair number of men who neither know nor care that they have children.  No one forces a woman to tell the father about the pregnancy, and no one forces the father to give a damn.  Of course many men will actually WANT their children and all the responsiblity that entails, but not all.

There is going to be some social fall out from that.  Single mothers will be more common than single fathers.  Many children will not know who their fathers are (many others know both parents, and many will know neither parent, but that is beside the point).  Women are going to be more likely to shoulder the burdens and reap the benefits of their own children.  Being pregnat sucks.  However, being old and having no offspring beholden too you also sucks, because there aren't any old folks homes.  Children are valuable: they can work, you can sell them, and most are tied to you for their entire lives.  What does a poor fellow who has no children (that he knows about) do when he needs help from his family and his parents are dead?

I think the situation in the Zalanthan cities would naturally lead to matralineal inheritence, in other words tracing your ancestry through your mother's family line.  You know who your mother is, you know who your mother's sisters and brothers are (your matrilineal aunts and uncles), you know who your mother's sister's children are (your matrilineal cousins) you know who your mother's mother is, you know who your mother's mother's sisters and brothers are, and so on.  You also know who your mother's children are, your brothers and sisters.  You know who your sister's children are, you know who your sister's daughter's children are, etc.  The men born to your female relatives are your male relatives.  The men who impregnated your female relatives may or may not be known, but they are not family.  In general, the children born to your female relatives are more important to you than the children born to the women your male relatives were having sex with.  The guy that was having sex with your mother 3/4s of a year before you were born is less important to you than your mother's brothers -- the guys that fucked your mom may wander off at any time, but your uncles are family forever.


Just a few thoughts.

Angela Christine
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

SRB

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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2004, 11:10:50 AM »
Quote from: "Sandstorm Phoenix"
I reserve the right for my PC to:


DO ANYTHING THAT IS WITHIN THE REALM OF THEIR ORIGINAL CONCEPT AND MINDSET

That's all I will add to this thread.

Please do not tell me I am roleplaying incorrectly when in truth you have no idea what you speak of.

If I am playing a character who looks down upon sexually active people, then so be it.

Again, I beseech you: do not make erroneous assumptions about players  because of how their pc acts in reaction to yours. Deal with it IC.
 was, am, and always will be. That which dwells under the cast shadows; my Heart of Darkness.

Seeker

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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2004, 11:22:22 AM »
Quote from: "My 2 Sids"
Tell me how it makes sense that people would trust perfect strangers to build relationships and sex encounters??


It seems to me, the purpose of the sexual information in the Quickstart is to make it clear that that sexual preferences and practices on Zalanthas are not perceived by the populace as identical to the views commonly seen in RL.  That is about all there is to it.  Zalanthas has different concepts of taboos and perversions than RL.

I don't read anything the documentation that hints that the populace is driven against the very real need for self-preservation to rut at the drop of the hat with strangers.  That would be foolish for the general population, and likely deadly for the PCs.

The point I see is that if an individual chooses sexual intimacy with one or many, with same sex or opposite sex partners of their own race, it is just not generally considered paticularily odd.

A woman who has a healthy sexual appetite would probably not be regarded very differently from a woman who eats huge meals.  

The private sexual behavior of individuals should probably have less social weight than their public table manners.


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Ayashah

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« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2004, 11:52:58 AM »
Very nice post, AC. I agree with the Matriarch type theory for family structures whole heartedly.
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Intrepid

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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2004, 12:08:13 PM »
Quote
Please do not tell me I am roleplaying incorrectly when in truth you have no idea what you speak of.

If I am playing a character who looks down upon sexually active people, then so be it.

Again, I beseech you: do not make erroneous assumptions about players because of how their pc acts in reaction to yours. Deal with it IC.


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Tamarin

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Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2004, 12:38:26 PM »
I think my next PC is going to look down on people who drink water...yeah, that sounds like a valid RP thing to do.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Comrade Canadia

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Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2004, 02:24:29 PM »
.....................

Okay, this is my last post on the thread, as I have lost faith in humanity in general.  Took me longer than I thought it would!

What the fuck does drinking water have to do with gender conception?  Randomly making up things and claiming I police your RP activites on them is uhm idiotic.  Strawman arguments are supposed to be clever.  'You don't like sexism?  WELL YOU MUST HATE WATER!'  What the hell?

Anyways, what I am talking about here is within the spirit of the world.  Sure, play what you want, but recognise you are intentionally going against game documentation here.  Calling someone a slut in a negative context shouldn't happen, because slut shouldn't be a bad word on armag.  Say 'I can do what I want all I want!' all you can, but it's been made pretty damn clear in this thread that this sort of behaviour does not jive with Zalanthas.

I'm not arbitrarily making up a rule about gender because I get offended, and then forcing you to abide by it.  This is in game documentation, and I think the game would be... oh, I don't know, more unique if we managed to get away from our gender conceptions.  I mean... god.  My ONLY WISH is for Zalanthas to stop being populated with characters from the Forgotten Realms who get angry when I tell them that they're not playing in the spirit of the world.  Am I perfect?  Hell no, but I'm at least self critical.

Armag is not ABOUT sexist attitudes and double standards with regards to women.  If you play these attidues, fine, but recognise that they are contrary to the game world that's been set out.  As Sanvean said, it's like an elf riding a kank.  It isn't arbitrary roleplay police, it's a very specific set of actions in the game world which have been clearly stated as not being appropriate.

-Dave
Mansa to Me: "You are a cancer to ArmageddonMUD."

Sanvean

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« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2004, 02:35:12 PM »
I'm locking this thread, since it's moving over into silliness.  FWIW, I think it's a great discussion, and it addresses an issue that comes up repeatedly.  Thanks, everyone, for the input.

Xygax

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« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2004, 02:44:38 PM »
A couple of the posts in this thread seem to indicate a very strong sense of "entitlement" to play the game however people see fit.

And certainly, to some degree, the documentation for the game (and in fact, this discussion board) exist to facilitate just that.  However, as Sanvean suggested a couple of pages ago on this thread, we place constraints on various roles for a reason.  One of these constraints is:  elves don't ride mounts.  Ever.  For any reason.  Not even if their background says so (all that means is that someone accidentally let a bogus background slip through).

Another constraint is that men and women are perceived by Zalanthan society -everywhere- as equals.  Men are not considered to be superior warriors to women.  Women are not confined to the societal boundaries that are imposed on them by earth-society (especially Puritanical western society).  Another constraint is that sexual activity does not carry the same stigma as it does in earth-society.  Monogamy and heterosexuality are common, but are not enforced by Zalanthan society...  they have useful attributes (it's easier to trust someone you've known for years, and easier to make offspring with members of the opposite sex), but they are NOT a mandate from Heaven (or even from Your Friendly, Neighborhood Sorcerer King).  It isn't considered slutty, degrading or low on Zalanthas to use sex as a tool, or to trade on your sexual attributes, for personal gain.  It is simply the resourceful application of an asset you happen to possess.

If your character is living by other rules than these, then it may profit you to think of yourself as an elf riding a kank.  That's how the rest of society is looking at you when you call someone a "slut" for sleeping with Lord Fancypants to achieve political or financial profit.

We place these constraints because we think overall it makes for a more playable, interesting, accessible world.  So, don't be the elf riding the kank.  It's jarring for the people who are trying to adhere to the world as it is set forth in our documentation, and unpleasant for the people who are the targets of your OOC derision, when -they- are roleplaying within the scope of those constraints and -you- are not.

Don't be the elf riding the kank.