Author Topic: Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.  (Read 21193 times)

Comrade Canadia

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Sexuality, sex, and all that other fun stuff.
« on: November 16, 2004, 02:10:30 AM »
ALRIGHT.  Although this was discussed in previous threads a while ago, I would like to take the opportunity to attack the roleplay of a great deal of the playerbase.  On what, you may ask?

SEX!

Sex sex sex.  The problems in game related to sex have obviously never been dealt with, and so in a VAIN attempt to deal with them I SHALL DRAG THIS ISSUE BACK UP.  Kicking.  Screaming.  And begging for its mommy.

As some people have noticed, people have sex on the mud.  Some, more than others.  This is not a bad thing unless it comes at the expense of realistic roleplay.  The actual act, I'm not going to rant about.  That's been done to death and everyone knows where they stand on it.  How we treat gender in relation to it is another matter entirely.

Officially, as we know it - Zalanthian genders are equal.  No gender is 'superior', no gender is more likely to be found in positions of power, no gender is more likely to take one job than the other.  Even RL physical differences between genders are equal.  Upper body strength, poise, balance, awareness, etc... all of that is exactly the same in men and women on armag.

Then why is it that time, and time again female PCs who DARE take on a lover or two suffer a barrage of insults?  Somehow, it's bad when a woman has sex, worse when she has a lot of it... AND SOCIAL DEATH if she happens to have risen to any position of power.  

Slut.  Loose.  Whore.  No self respect.  Desparate.  Sleeping her way to the top.

Male pcs in similar positions?  NO PROBLEM!  I can think of a few male PCs in particular who fucked half of Allanak - usually with a range of reactions.  Some negative, mostly neutral, some positive.  You know, a range.  Not 'HE'S A WHORE!  HE SLEPT HIS WAY TO THE TOP!'  Said reactions can be negative, but not overwhelmingly so.  I have never, ever seen a male PC accused of sleeping his way to the top on armag.

And even if a woman on arm DOES sleep around... why is this a -bad- thing?  Where the hell are the puritan roots on armag that would spawn this sort of attitude?  Commoners don't even get married!  Why is sex suddenly bad, especially so when a woman is involved?  The answer is obvious in terms of RL influence on how we react towards gender, but we should be attempting to get past that.  

I've been playing armag off and on for eight years now, and during that time I have seen pc, after pc, after pc become the subject of endless attack because she dared to have sex with more than one man.  Unless there is some sort of official word on how this sort of reaction jives with gender standards on arm... this is my plea.

PLEASE STOP IT.  IT IS BAD ROLEPLAY.

Got a problem with sex?  Fine.  Make sure men get as much flak as women.  No problem with sex?  Even better.  Make sure women get as much praise for scoring the big one as men.  If you disagree with me on this, fine - just remember one thing here.  The F-me PC is a term known to pretty much every armer as an example of bad roleplay, and I sure as hell don't think of a man when that term is used.  Think about that.

-Dave
Mansa to Me: "You are a cancer to ArmageddonMUD."

JollyGreenGiant

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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 02:31:51 AM »
Quote
And begging for its mommy.


Paging Dr. Freud...
quote="Larrath"]"On the 5th day of the Ascending Sun, in the Month of Whira's Very Annoying And Nearly Unreachable Itch, Lord Templar Mha Dceks set the Barrel on fire. The fire was hot".[/quote]

jhunter

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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 02:43:27 AM »
This got me to thinking...how come there aren't any male npc prostitutes around? I've seen females but no males...

A greasy man-whore clad in only a loincloth stands on the corner here, calling out to people passing by.

A half-giant prostitute is here next to the greasy man-whore, calling out and waving his massive member.

RunningMountain

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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2004, 02:47:54 AM »
First of all, I don't think you are someone to judge what is good or bad roleplay amongst pcs.  How someone reacts to something is completely up to them and how they are playing a certain characters persona, and I disagree with you on a lot of what you said, equality and all that jazz.  

-Uh, it's sorcerer-King right? Though a sorcerer-queen would be cool as hell.

-Men and woman -are- treated differently because they are different, no matter how much you spout about equality between the genders I have to just spout back that you're wrong about that, even in a fantasy world men and woman are different, even if you say woman can be as strong as men or this and that, as far as the political world is concerned they are so much different, the way it is viewed by the pcs should never be policed the way you are saying it needs to be.
-If you don't like the way pcs react to something then submit the fiery-eyed bull-necked dike, join the byn and start calling these certain 'male' pcs that are sleeping their way to the top, little man-whores with a worthless seed and prickly limp tregil cocks.

I'm done I think..

-RM
A man's reputation is what other people think of him; his character is what he really is.

Hicksville Hoochie

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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2004, 03:17:45 AM »
Actually, RunningMountain, it's a HIGHLY stressed fact, that the gender barrier is nonexistent in Zalanthas.

Quote from: "http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html"
Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.
 

Comrade Canadia

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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2004, 03:39:17 AM »
RM, you're cheerfully illustrating my point right now.  The sort of attitude you're displaying there is exactly what I'm talking about.  The doc HH pointed out -directly- says it's not an appropriate outlook in the game world, even though many people share it.  Most have the good taste to deny it at least.  Incidentally, it's spelled dyke, not dike.  Get your epithets right.  I'm not calling you a beegut or a mesawjunist, now am I?

-Dave
-Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to deteriorate faster than a sock at Vimy Ridge?
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John

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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2004, 03:54:02 AM »
Quote from: "RunningMountain"
First of all, I don't think you are someone to judge what is good or bad roleplay amongst pcs.
Guess what. This is a discussion board where discussions take place. People are going to discuss certain things. They will say "I think X is wrong while I think Y is right." In a ROLEPLAYING section people will discuss roleplaying and what they think is good roleplaying and what they think is bad roleplaying. Some will voice their opinions stronger then others. No, a player (in my opinion) isn't an authority on what's good roleplaying. But we're more then welcome to discuss what we think.

I'm just getting sick of anytime someone tries to present an opinion in anything that resembles "slightly strong" they get told "your a player shut up." If you don't like players saying what their opinion is on a matter don't visit the discussion board.

[/rant]

Quote from: "RunningMountain"
Men and woman -are- treated differently because they are different
And don't you go ranting about saying players are opinions and aren't worth anything if you're then going to present your own opinion as fact ;)

(last bit was tongue-in-cheek :P).

Your opinion (IMO) is wrong though. Women and men aren't different. Staff have said numerous times on the GDB that there is no difference. Staff who've said that ranges across the entire board from Overlords to Storytellers. The only difference from what I've read is women have tits and their plumbing is inside whereas males don't have tits with their plumbing outside. Those are the only (and they're very superficial) differences. So until I see a staff explicitly say they are to be treated differently socailly then I'll roleplay they're the same socially.

Quote
how come there aren't any male npc prostitutes around?
Because us males have mainly been the people writing the NPC whores?
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Morrolan

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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2004, 04:25:14 AM »
This isn't an answer, and might even be a little off-topic.  But it is pertinent, I think.

Examples of women making it to the top without sex -do- happen in this game.

I can think of two Byn Lieutenants and a handful of sergeants who made it.  And while it's popular to pooh-pooh the Byn, it's generally accepted as a training ground for new players.

They weren't the kind of people who slept around.  Circumspect and professional, they were paragons of Armageddon military life.  They worked their way up through the ranks by -not dying-, facing the same dangers as everyone else.  It was by being tougher, smarter, or both that they made the grade.  And if they were sleeping with anyone, it was no-one's business.  Organizational skills, dedication, and competence were what counted.

Now, in a leadership position in a military organization, it is generally accepted that you don't sleep with the troops.  Not always done, but generally accepted.  It's bad for morale.  But I'd dare someone to spit in those PCs faces and say that they slept their way to the top.

People like that have a way of lining the latrines.
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Tlaloc

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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2004, 05:17:40 AM »
Quote
-Uh, it's sorcerer-King right? Though a sorcerer-queen would be cool as hell.


Who's to say there haven't been any, aren't any now, or won't ever be any?
Tlaloc
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Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2004, 05:53:25 AM »
There are male NPC prostitutes in game.

Adhira

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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2004, 05:55:18 AM »
Ahem, now that I am logged in, I shall repeat, there are NPC prostitutes in game of the male gender.
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Sandstorm Phoenix

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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2004, 06:17:12 AM »
Here's  an old thread related to this one.   Fun read:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5120&highlight=

It is an OOC issue stemming back from the days of HnS muds where the quickest way to level up with the least amount of effort was to make a female character in a hungry male virtual world.  It worked, and worked well.   It works pretty good here too, if the truth be told.  

It doesn't work quite as easily to man-whore your way to the top.  That is what I want to complain about.   The docs say pure gender equality, so you guys who like to play hot swishy female PCs. . . you should be able to deflate her and make a F-Me male and sleep your way all the way up!  Fight for your equal rights!  Why should wimminfolk get all the fun?

'course, my PCs will still make fun of you.  Especially if you're banging halfbreeds or Kaidians or Byn or anything other than a pure human.

Cenghiz

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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2004, 06:29:24 AM »
The easiest way to support gender equality: Making chars of opposite sex!

When a male creates a female char (I do sometimes) your char is more agreessive, choosing, picking and f*cking his man. (Note: Male or female, I blank out.) She's also confident and furious, like Zalanthan women are most likely.

And I believe when a female player creates a male char, that male would be a little bit more passive and emotional. That would be perfect seasoning in the Rambos' world of Zalanthan males.

I liked my female characters when they disturbed males, even sexually harrassed the cute male sitting at the bar. It seemed logical and noone ever said anything bad about those females. Because they weren't RL females for sure, being played by a male.

So all I can do.... emote zaps everyone with a pink wand.
quote="Ghost"]Despite the fact he is uglier than all of us, and he has a gay look attached to all over himself, and his being chubby (I love this word) Cenghiz still gets most of the girls in town. I have no damn idea how he does that.[/quote]

Adhira

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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2004, 06:33:43 AM »
Quote
When a male creates a female char (I do sometimes) your char is more agreessive, choosing, picking and f*cking his man. (Note: Male or female, I blank out.) She's also confident and furious, like Zalanthan women are most likely.

And I believe when a female player creates a male char, that male would be a little bit more passive and emotional. That would be perfect seasoning in the Rambos' world of Zalanthan males.


I disagree with this. I've seen plenty of agressive females played by women, I've played some myself. By the same token some of the fluffiest, most flirtatious and feminine female characters I have seen have been played by men.
"It doesn't matter what country someone's from, or what they look like, or the color of their skin. It doesn't matter what they smell like, or that they spell words slightly differently, some would say more correctly." - Jemaine Clement. FOTC.

Cenghiz

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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2004, 07:10:24 AM »
Quote
By the same token some of the fluffiest, most flirtatious and feminine female characters I have seen have been played by men.


Don't blame those men.... They've played their fantasies.. :)

Anyway; what I wanted to say: Putting yourself in other sex's shoes could help a little. Of course, thinking of the above quote, that may just be a bad idea.
quote="Ghost"]Despite the fact he is uglier than all of us, and he has a gay look attached to all over himself, and his being chubby (I love this word) Cenghiz still gets most of the girls in town. I have no damn idea how he does that.[/quote]

Bestatte

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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2004, 07:28:01 AM »
A few observations and points:

1) The quickstart is a *player-submitted* guide, one which went through the wringer when it was introduced for popular opinion right here on the GDB. Several people disagreed with various points on that quickstart, and I still disagree with the points I disagreed with then. I don't know if everyone else who did, still does. You'd have to ask them.

2) Males and females in Zalanthas are *EQUAL* however they are *NOT THE SAME*. There's a huge difference between the two.

3) I haven't ever witnessed a male PC in Arm attempt to sleep his way to the top, so I've never had any reason to criticize one for that behavior, either ICly or OOCly. I have witnessed MANY female PCs do this, and some of my PCs will absolutely, positively have an opinion about it. And maybe some of my characters BE one of those PCs who attempts to sleep their way to the top, or sex up another PC just to get info or "stuff" from them.

I know that there are male PCs who sleep around *specifically* for the purpose of gaining something unrelated to the sex itself. It's just that none of my characters have ever observed the "usual" behavior leading up to it, or resulting from it.

Conclusion: I don't think any PC should have problems noticing anyone, male or female, wanting to be intimate with anyone else, for the sake of intimacy itself, or for "bonding" purposes, or for reproduction purposes.

However, I don't think there's anything wrong AT ALL with someone having a problem with watching a PC use their crotch as a way to get to the top. Jealousy *of a position your PC wants to attain*, possessiveness *of a position you already hold which is being threatened by the intimacy of another PC*, scorn - for two reasons actually - one, because the female doesn't have what it takes to rise to the top without thrusting her crotch at a male, and two, because the male she thrusts it at is too stupid to notice that she's trying to wrangle information from him.

These are perfectly valid reasons to take issue with f-me PCs of either gender, if your character observes this sort of behavior, and can see the pattern as being intentional (like an F-me PC who will ONLY go after Sergeants of various clans, or who will ONLY go after nobles in Allanak, or who will ONLY go after the people you know are all spies for various houses, etc. etc. etc.)

That's my opinion on the matter. And I think it's important to understand the massive difference between "equal" and "the same." Just as 3 apples are equal to 3 oranges, the two kinds of fruit are NOT the same.

Armaddict

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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2004, 07:55:10 AM »
3 oranges are so much more than 3 apples.  Really.

But yeah, I agree...equal, but not the same.  I actually consider some female pc's -more- dangerous than a lot men pc's that could rip me to shreds.  Why?  At least I see the sword coming.  Some women are good about making sure no one -ever- sees that knife coming.

People think Tuluk is subtle?  Check out circles of women :P
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Ayashah

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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2004, 08:40:15 AM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
This got me to thinking...how come there aren't any male npc prostitutes around? I've seen females but no males...

A greasy man-whore clad in only a loincloth stands on the corner here, calling out to people passing by.

A half-giant prostitute is here next to the greasy man-whore, calling out and waving his massive member.


Catamites....seen a few npcs there I just figure most dont use the word 'prostitute' in the short description of the male ones.

A point to remember, to those that scorn the female sleeping their way to the top, SHIT ROLLS DOWNHILL. Go ahead and piss her off.

*cackles evilly and makes a notation next to that pc's short*
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RunningMountain

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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2004, 09:09:22 AM »
Quote

I'm just getting sick of anytime someone tries to present an opinion in anything that resembles "slightly strong" they get told "your a player shut up." If you don't like players saying what their opinion is on a matter don't visit the discussion board.

[/rant]


I'm not saying he's wrong because he's a player, I'm saying he's wrong because people are going to play their pcs the way they want. Posting here to tell people to quit bad roleplaying is kind of pointless because unless it's something major you're not going to reach anybody, just like me and you throwing opinions back and forth, it's moot.

Quote

Your opinion (IMO) is wrong though. Women and men aren't different. Staff have said numerous times on the GDB that there is no difference. Staff who've said that ranges across the entire board from Overlords to Storytellers. The only difference from what I've read is women have tits and their plumbing is inside whereas males don't have tits with their plumbing outside. Those are the only (and they're very superficial) differences. So until I see a staff explicitly say they are to be treated differently socailly then I'll roleplay they're the same socially.


And I think your opinion is wrong, men and woman are different, in the real world and in the virtual, and in all fantasy worlds that you read/play in. It's nothing more then common sense to at least admit they are different, equal is another beast to argue about all in itself.
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RunningMountain

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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2004, 09:11:55 AM »
Dike can be spelled either way too.
A man's reputation is what other people think of him; his character is what he really is.

Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2004, 09:46:57 AM »
Quote from: "Bestatte"
1) The quickstart is a *player-submitted* guide


Why not call it an 'Imm-approved' guide instead of using precise wording to cast dispersions on a guide that has some specific sections you happen to not like?

I highly doubt that Sanvean/Nessalin, etc. would publish a guide with errors in it.

Larrath

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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2004, 09:49:50 AM »
I believe that there are some differences between all men and women that are true for both the real and the fantasy worlds.

In my opinion, a female is more likely to operate in a manner favoring quality over quantity when choosing mates, while males will pick the opposite behaviour.  The obvious reason for this is that a female can only carry one pregnancy at once, whereas a male can make half a city pregnant if given a year and half a chance.


Mul mix is commonly and cheaply available, so most pairings don't result in pregnancy anyway.  I think that a female sleeping with everyone she sees is about as peculiar as a male that's holding out for the One, or in other words, not very.
The male in question might be asked "What if you never find her?" and the female would be asked "What if you get pregnant by one of those creeps?" and both will shrug it off and say it won't happen or that they'll deal with it.
Let's not forget that selling children is a common practice, after all.



Now, if you want to use the old cliches about genders, that's just silly.  Women are not delicate creatures that need nurture and protection and shouldn't walk alone at night, and men are not forceful brutes who only understand force, spitting and their sekrit language of Grunting.

Just about all of these differences are created by society.  Little boys can fight and spar and whatever amongst themselves, but they can't lay a finger on a girl or the teacher will hit them with a spiked iron ruler.  Little boys are given plastic soldiers and weapons to play with while girls get dolls to dress up.  Boys can get some dirt on their clothes and in their hair, but girls will be lectured and slapped repeatedly if they got that messy.
The list goes on.  Fact is that in Zalanthas, it's not "men don't cry", but rather "nobody cries, ever".
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Bestatte

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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2004, 10:00:57 AM »
Quote
Now, if you want to use the old cliches about genders, that's just silly. Women are not delicate creatures that need nurture and protection and shouldn't walk alone at night, and men are not forceful brutes who only understand force, spitting and their sekrit language of Grunting.


Exactly. And when people who play these stereotypes stop playing them, I believe we will see more people treating the genders as equals. My observation tells me otherwise. That some female PCs DO sleep their way to the top, and that some male PCs ARE too stupid to realize they're being manipulated.

If it's intentional, great! And just as great - is when people respond to it accordingly. Because - female PCs should NOT be using "weakness" and "delicacy" and "need for nurture and protection" as a means to become influential, since the docs state very clearly that women in Zalanthas AREN'T weak, delicate, and needing nurture and protection.

A female who behaves like this SHOULD expect to be criticized.

Naiona

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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2004, 10:22:11 AM »
I am personally amused that we have players that are OOCly offended by the combination of ruthless sexuality and manipulation in Zalanthas, yet are perfectly happy with wanton violence or corruption.

The typical person in either citystate has -none- of the sexual mores that exist in Western society.  Male or female concubines and consorts are looked -up- to, not down upon.  Take a look at the social documentation ( http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html ), people. It is clearly laid out for you.  A PC might have IC jealousy because their character wanted the prestige that Lord Fluffybottom's concubine got instead, but the vast majority of characters will only envy their luck and/or manipulative skill in gaining such a position.

Quickstart is accepted as part of the official documentation.  It was compiled by Sanvean, based on a concept by a player (Shaleah).   It has been said a thousand times and will likely be said a thousand more without changing a thing - but forget your modern day values.  They have no relevance here.

I have no doubt that many people will find reasons for their PCs to continue to have nothing but scorn for any female PC that doesn't have visible warts, massive muscles and an offensive odor.  But those people should be aware that it is their own prejudice kicking in and has nothing to do with the reality of Zalanthas.
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Pantoufle

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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2004, 10:32:49 AM »
Quote from: "Comrade Canadia"
why is it that time, and time again female PCs who DARE take on a lover or two suffer a barrage of insults? Somehow, it's bad when a woman has sex, worse when she has a lot of it... AND SOCIAL DEATH if she happens to have risen to any position of power.


I'm not certain if what you describe is necessarily the case, at least not on any large scale.

But I think if there is any truth to your statement it is because more often than not said female characters are playing high fantasy fluff concepts that rarely fit in with the ArmageddonMUD theme.  I can't tell you of how many "princesses" with their unrealistic alabaster skin and impossible good looks who have slept their way to power that I've seen.  It's such a fad.  And to me, it doesn't make sense.  The female characters whom I've known that have truly risen to power didn't even roleplay sex (to my knowledge).  Or if they had, it wasn't the tool to their success.  

Examples include Lady Templar Dora Tor, Druel (was that her name? It's been a while.  Some 'Naki soldier chick at any rate), and Basya of House Kurac.

Why are people insulting females who sleep their way to power but not males?  Because regardless of Zalanthan principles and ethics, the playerbase is played by real people with real world personalities.  I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm just saying that that is a real world stigma.  Don't expect that to go away any time soon, and don't expect every single person to eradicate real world prejudices successfully in game.

But not to sound entirely chauvenistic, I'm willing to bet all these males who have "slept with half of Allanak", as you say, actually weren't using sex -- or should I say, MUDsex -- to rise to power.  They just happened to be sowing their wild oats while also having completely separate agendas from their sex life.  If you're creating a ridiculous alabaster-skinned buttslut with silken hair down to your ankles (in the Madmax-like world of Zalanthas, of all places), then don't expect much respect from me, in game or out of game.