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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Brokkr on June 24, 2019, 10:49:35 PM »
Kind of what I was trying to allude to.  Your character is the hero of their story, and have goals that are important to them and that they want to realize...

In the broader story, it is likely they are not an important person.  That is fine.  But you can't take literary references to the main, or key characters in a story and apply that to what should happen to you as far as the game.  Because it is only in your own story that you are such a character.  In the world's story, it is unlikely a particular character is (although there have been PCs that achieved that level).
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Armaddict on June 24, 2019, 10:34:35 PM »
If you think single events (deaths) determine if you're a redshirt or not, I'm not sure we're talking about the same concept.

Redshirts for me are concepts that exist purely for the sake of having someone to kill off.

If you're talking about every character being extra meaningful and having everything you want to happen happen, you're talking about an entirely different game concept.

Not to mention, that's a whole list of stereotypes.  My last Bynner got paranoid as fuck about his own troopers trying to kill him off in the sparring room and left.  The one before that breeded out hard after surviving a wild fire-gith attack.  The one before that helped swarm meks, hunted rogue mages, and died in a raider battle (yes, this one was a long time ago).

None of those were redshirts.  They would have been to any cross-sectional character who saw them for a brief second, but to the people in his clan, he did not exist solely to die, he was a living part of their day for a long period of time.

You guys have moved on to literally complaining about non-glorious deaths.  It's very self-centered for a game like Arm where everyone is writing a narrative and pushing to make it come true at the same time.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Eyeball on June 24, 2019, 09:55:58 PM »
What are the Byn or Gemmed except red shirts? Consistently they are brought into dangerous circumstances through no choice of their own.

You can't join the Byn and expect only to train, unless you actively avoid contracts by logging off. And if you do that, you get kicked out or become a pariah.

You can't be a Gemmed without getting swept up by Templars whenever it suits them.

Join the Byn? Die in a spider contract.

Become a Gemmed? After being commanded into a Templar's presence, die for being a witness to inter-Templar strife.

Join the Byn? Die following your Sergeant into the abyss.

Those characters were all at journeyman and above, by the way. Seems pretty red-shirty to me. In each case, you're just a pawn being moved by higher-ranked pieces.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Armaddict on June 24, 2019, 06:16:06 PM »
Yes, let's overanalyze what he said to make it fit your narrative when the message is clearly 'It's much harder to reach being Bronn than being the normal warrior, and along the way you're with everyone else trying to be Bronn'.

Not that I agree with his wording; to me, redshirts are almost non-existent anymore.  They existed when character turnaround was such that being a 30 day warrior was an accomplishment in itself because everyone was charging off into fights everywhere, and so you had 3 characters in a row that were short lived enough to be passing memories.  Honestly, that was kind of a richer game, but that's a point that I understand there will be very vital differences on.

If you get to journeyman warrior, you're not a redshirt.  You're too survivable to be just a redshirt, and you've survived long enough to be more than just a redshirt.  Your character is special/notable to someone unless you've taken that grind so seriously that you've neglected to play any social or 'roleplaying with others' aspects at all.
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Give us an estimate of how much a liquid container can hold on assess. Something like...

Code: [Select]
...it could hold about two skins worth of liquid.
Please? Pretty please?

... it could hold about 20 sips worth of liquid.


Also, down with cups that only hold a single sip!
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Namino on June 24, 2019, 05:32:14 PM »
Quote
none of these standards are held true for any other class of skills.

If you really think all warriors in the game are just redshirts, then I'd hate to be a clanmate of yours knowing how disappointing my character was as just another redshirt to you, because I didn't reach master level.  That's really disappointing to me, so at least the feeling would be mutual.


It's not my sentiment.

GoT, a story with a handful of POV characters (i.e. PCs), features a dozen or more characters defined by their martial prowess, and it plays a central role in the whole narrative. Do you think it was too much? That it should have been toned down so that only a couple of characters in the story were notable fighters? What about in a game that features two hundred POV characters per week? Where do you think the line is drawn when it comes to an undesirable number of PCs who are good enough at fighting to where it's a noteworthy characteristic?

I actually only read the first book and I hated it.

But the point was, for every Brons, how many normal red shirt soldiers that wanted to be the best were there?  While from your PoV, this may be your story, from the overall perspective, you are much more likely to be a red shirt than a Brons.  Not that there haven't been Brons.  Those are the names we remember, like Thrain.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Armaddict on June 24, 2019, 05:20:12 PM »
Quote
none of these standards are held true for any other class of skills.

Uhm.  And when is the last time you referred to anyone as a -legendary- sneak.  Or a -legendary- swordmaker.  Or a -legendary- tracker?

We say these people are good at what they do.  You trying to standardize all skills is a weakening of the one class of skills where you -can- achieve notability, by virtue of it having a place that is above and beyond where most go.

The GoT analogies grow very tiresome, the whole point was that they were bad examples because they take people on a scale themselves, then just plop them all into the 'master' class because somehow that makes them lose the redshirt status, not the characters themselves, despite most of them being beaten in combat by one another or someone else throughout the show.  The 'master' achievement doesn't do that, the characters and perspective following them does.

If you really think all warriors in the game are just redshirts, then I'd hate to be a clanmate of yours knowing how disappointing my character was as just another redshirt to you, because I didn't reach master level.  That's really disappointing to me, so at least the feeling would be mutual.

Once again:  Trying to fix things so that there are more pertinent encounters to gaining skill, or conducive ways to bring that risk/reward scenario into play, I'm all for.  But as long as we keep on talking about 'fixes' that really just make it so that sparring gets you to master, I'm going to keep on emphasizing that mastery is special and unnecessary.  Except for Synth's qualm with the enforcer backstab.  Never-branching skills are always frustrating, though I believe this time it was at least done -completely- knowingly.
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Give us an estimate of how much a liquid container can hold on assess. Something like...

Code: [Select]
...it could hold about two skins worth of liquid.

...it could hold about 16 gills of liquid.
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Brytta Léofa on June 24, 2019, 05:01:26 PM »
Why is it necessary to reach mastery in fireball? Or a crafting skill? Again, we don't apply any of this logic to any skill that isn't a combat skill.

I mean, for the record--insofar as anybody knows / the documentation doesn't say--day 50 fireball is no more powerful than day 10 fireball.

(Try to not laugh too hard as I imply that magick is underpowered.:)))
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Code Discussion / Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Last post by Namino on June 24, 2019, 04:36:23 PM »
Why is it necessary to reach mastery in fireball? Or a crafting skill? Again, we don't apply any of this logic to any skill that isn't a combat skill. You achieve 'proficiency' in those skills soon enough as well, where you can out sneak/out craft/out fireball a 'redshirt' crafter or magician. Yet people plow on to master without inhibition and we don't deride or resist their right to do so. Ser Arthur Dayne (the 'guy' that Ned Stark killed) was better than Tormund. But Tormund and co were not sitting at jman plateau levels.

Human beings achieve the best they can be for the sake of it. Again, people climb mount Everest. There's nothing fucking up there, yet they do it because it's the best thing that can be done. They want to see the summit. <Master> is the summit of a skill grind. People want to see the summit and if you tell people they can't climb any higher than camp 2 they'd be just as annoyed.

Also the fact we're using the term 'redshirt' like that's where we should aspire to end up on average while playing this game is hilarious. Redshirts were literally used to emphasize danger by killing someone who was not important, preserving the cast. So basically by saying that 95% of everyone can only aspire to be a redshirt, you're informing 95% of your playerbase that they can only ever aspire to be unimportant, a cast away trope to make the remaining 5% (most of whom are npcs) more special.

Again, we've fundamentally subverted the purpose of entertainment as a medium. People already feel fundamentally unimportant in their day to day lives, or at least average at best. And now we're coming up with this concept that we should be satisfied with mediocrity in our fantasies that we indulge in for fun?

And again, this bears repeating, none of these standards are held true for any other class of skills.
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