I think we all know it, but right now, Allanak has barely a population of players.
Why? What can we do to bring people to this 'RP Hub'? And honestly, is it worth pushing any RP into it?
Allanak feels like a tired thing. The city is just one road with three taverns off of it. None of the rumor boards have been updated in about two weeks. No one outside of Allanak seems to even need Allanak anymore. Everyone who is located there seems kinda tired and those of us in the city currently try to make the best out of it. Cause we're stuck in our plots. Literally stuck in a city with barely any foot traffic.
Would it be better to just open up a chasm and let Allanak fall into it? Start anew? Or should we try to keep pumping blood into an empty city?
Once upon a time...not really too horribly long ago. There was plenty of complaints that nobody played in storm or Luirs etc...because everybody played in Allanak and Tuluk. They played in Tuluk because...well, Allanak and they played in Allanak because...well...Tuluk. Then Tuluk was closed for staff and player consolidation. I stated at the time that it would not work and that players would just start playing in the corners of the world.
The problem is, Allanak was set up to be that counterpoint to Tuluk and is still in that state, but without Tuluk that is some Idle/limbo state SUPER POWERFUL SORCERER KING, MASSIVE ECONEMY, Templars of DOOM able to bring massive armies of mundane and magick too.......Nowhere.
Basically, without some real and PLAYABLE "enemy", Allanak, in current state, has no real reason to exist.
Oh shit, that's such a good response.
First off, thank you for starting this topic. Secondly, I have a few things to say about this.... Close Allanak and open Tuluk, the superior city where you can kank cat girls as a noble, hell yeah!
I personally feel some of the problem is Allanak being... Dull, there is no conflict. Make conflict that actually is relevant to Allanak and worth playing in from different perspectives besides a select few clans that can see the plot. I have a few more ideas but Im leaving off with this for tonight.
In my view the responsibility lies in a complete shift in the culture of how conflict is treated and those who created it in the past are fed up and seeking to do so elsewhere.
I do agree with the whole Allanak needs a playable enemy, but my problem with the city-state is the size. Yes, it's there for realism but at a playability standpoint, it doesn't work. I main reason why I liked to play in Tuluk and now the Outpost, is almost everyone gathers around one tavern. Allanak has three plus the bakery. It would be nice to have just one but with multiple levels for each class type.
Quote from: SodaDogARM on August 19, 2020, 04:57:16 AM
In my view the responsibility lies in a complete shift in the culture of how conflict is treated and those who created it in the past are fed up and seeking to do so elsewhere.
That too, it seems the subtly of Tuluk is affecting Allanak.
Quote from: Barsook on August 19, 2020, 07:37:12 AM
I do agree with the whole Allanak needs a playable enemy, but my problem with the city-state is the size. Yes, it's there for realism but at a playability standpoint, it doesn't work. I main reason why I liked to play in Tuluk and now the Outpost, is almost everyone gathers around one tavern. Allanak has three plus the bakery. It would be nice to have just one but with multiple levels for each class type.
Agreeing the taverns in Allanak can use some refactoring. Not sure if consolidating them is the answer given that charming things happen in Allanak taverns currently like people getting backstabbed in the middle of the day at the bar.
[snark]Personally that's why my characters don't stop by Allanaki Taverns much anymore. Don't really like the whole getting backstabbed in public thing. It's a tad bit of an embarrassing way to go. If we have a tavern where if you `l up` and see a Templar and a Noble two floors above you that tavern is just going to become a tacky PK hub... even more so than the Gaj already is![/snark]
Quote from: Barsook on August 19, 2020, 07:37:12 AM
Quote from: SodaDogARM on August 19, 2020, 04:57:16 AM
In my view the responsibility lies in a complete shift in the culture of how conflict is treated and those who created it in the past are fed up and seeking to do so elsewhere.
That too, it seems the subtly of Tuluk is affecting Allanak.
Subtle? About a year and a half ago there were three threads about people being too PK happy and ending plots, probably because we had Templars doing stuff like hunting down criminals on their own outside the gates with their flaming thunder swords. I had something like five characters killed by the same two Templars in a row last year. When Allanak has no real antagonists, players are free to individually play antagonists, but given the unsubtle way Allanaki leadership handle conflict...
120h 90s 110m 100v | Lord Templar Crushalot>say Now you shall die by my awesome roleplay.
120h 90s 110m 100v | Lord Templar Crushalot>kill rougue.gick
Well, it's not super fun "volunteering to be an antagonist" -- which is the current status quo -- given the super lame way that plot will resolve 9/10 times.
Sidenote and shoutout to the northern tribal gal behind the PBRPT who helped drive a huge battle with Allanak, gathered a bunch of allies behind her, and VOLUNTEERED to be an antagonist and COMPLETELY ROCKED AT IT. I don't know when I am going to be able to mention this character by name, because so far as I am concerned her reputation is immortal IG. I think I tried to kudos her twice.
It sucks that we currently have a state where you have to basically "volunteer" to antagonize Allanak, which given the power differential, is essentially volunteering to be killed even if you're the baddest chick to ever live like the chick I just mentioned. I feel like the Crimson Wind was kickstarted to try and generate conflict outside of a Tuluki reopening, but the Crimson Wind is still more or less "volunteering for a resistance effort where you will inevitably be killed." I would love it if things are more balanced, and I've casually mentioned the benefits of reopening Tuluk [or some other opposition force] since coming back to this game like... forty times.
Lastly, I wonder if Staff open roles in a way that try to AVOID conflict to make their lives easier or something. About 4 months ago a small number of people whined about how we keep opening noble roles, how so many staff resources are focused on that sort of roleplay and intentionally neglect concepts outside of Allanak. The criticism seems fair, as yet again we see AoD/Militia roles opening, but no role calls for any clans that would provide the Militia/Allanak any conflict. When I saw this AoD rolecall my first thought was "Wow I hope this means they are going to open up a clan or some roles to antagonize the AoD in the next rolecall!" This will likely prove to be wistful thinking but hopefully staff surprise us.
Good point, but I wasn't thinking of PKing. More in terms of intrigue.
Quote from: Barsook on August 19, 2020, 08:58:35 AM
Good point, but I wasn't thinking of PKing. More in terms of intrigue.
Oh yeah I agree there too. Slightly different take on the problem,
same solution. Imagine a world where instead of intrigue looking like:
The wizened, thin-boned templar tells the prim, tressy-tressed aide:
"Lady Agnez Jal bought that pearl necklace out from under me in the auction. I want you to kank and poison her aide."
We have intrigue like:
The wizened, thin-boned templar tells the prim, tressy-tressed aide:
"That damned Jihaean upstart from Tuluk has the gall to patrol south of Luir's. Contact Lord Killgor Tor and Sergeant Buttcrust of the Steel Talons to organize a patrol North next week, and if we happen to come across that Jihaen we can settle this matter on the spot."
Suddenly we have:
- Conflict involving a TON of players, not just petty high-school grade drama involving a handful of players.
- Antagonists who [gasp] feel like protagonists on either side, a key to good storytelling since the advent of the Homeric epic.
- Organic, self-generating conflict, instead of people feeling like they have to manufacture petty and ephemeral conflict.
@Barsook Perhaps that is what you are experiencing but I don't believe that is the case for many players. There is a lot of overt and subvert conflict ongoing. The two years prior to this one had more "overt" conflict, I would say -- but is there anything wrong with a change of meta culture if it is still canon? People don't want to play the same game over and over so I think it is a natural counter culture effect to go through periods of obvious and subtle conflict. Sometimes feuds take RL months to develop and other times they're born of the first few minutes of interaction between PCs.
As for having a suitable enemy to compete with Allanak--We have had a lot of player driven antagonists for the past year. It would be nice if there was a more established or similar power level enemy to conflict with Allanak.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 19, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
It would be nice if there was a more established or similar power level enemy to conflict with Allanak.
Yep: a summary of what I've posted, basically, we all agree on this. Who
doesn't want this at this at this point? How many times to we have to collectively say we want this until we see a change?
And if someone says "be the change," read the example and details I posted. We had a cool player who was almost "the change" but even she couldn't succeed. Given how insanely qualified she was to "be the change," it's fair to say it's impossible to "be the change" and some staff action on this matter is needed.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 19, 2020, 09:13:57 AM
@Barsook Perhaps that is what you are experiencing but I don't believe that is the case for many players. There is a lot of overt and subvert conflict ongoing. The two years prior to this one had more "overt" conflict, I would say -- but is there anything wrong with a change of meta culture if it is still canon? People don't want to play the same game over and over so I think it is a natural counter culture effect to go through periods of obvious and subtle conflict. Sometimes feuds take RL months to develop and other times they're born of the first few minutes of interaction between PCs.
As for having a suitable enemy to compete with Allanak--We have had a lot of player driven antagonists for the past year. It would be nice if there was a more established or similar power level enemy to conflict with Allanak.
You are right, but it seems to happen to me always. Perhaps, even after ten plus years of playing, I'm still not getting to roles to be aware of the levels of conflict. Or just not noticing it.
Quote from: Gentleboy on August 19, 2020, 03:53:28 AM
I think we all know it, but right now, Allanak has barely a population of players.
Besides the obvious and often repeated but unappeased observation that having a strong foe, like Tuluk, can remedy this issue...
... I just want to take a moment to comment on Allanak being empty, and say,
I told you so.Per Friday's comment on plotlines and the meta changing -- yes, it has -- and not in a good way. Many players saw the stifling mass of GMH and Templar roles, the reopening of the Atrium, and didn't cheer about it; they questioned the shift in this direction. I did, for the sheerly personal reason that I do not enjoy uppercrust roleplay, and not only that, but that I often play concepts prohibited from ever entering that sort of roleplay. And surprise, gasp, you run some basic statistics, and you will see that
most players are prohibited from entering this realm of roleplay, even if they want to, due to stuff like playtime minimums for being a GMH, race restrictions on who can join the Atrium, etc. We poured players and staff resources into roleplay where the
entire theme is elitism and exclusivity, and are now shocked that the city has become emptied because the main roleplay supported is roleplay that by definition excludes people.
Feel free to weep about the state of things today, feel free to ignore me, but realize
I told you so as did many other players. But you decided you were all better than us and rode your cart into your now empty city.
I liked the consolidation into Nak but it didn't really pan out.
Start a civil war. Red robe VS red robe, wooing noble and merchant houses. Black robes overseeing it and more or less keeping the in-city PK orgy under control. Or not.
QuoteSubtle? About a year and a half ago there were three threads about people being too PK happy and ending plots, probably because we had Templars doing stuff like hunting down criminals on their own outside the gates with their flaming thunder swords. I had something like five characters killed by the same two Templars in a row last year. When Allanak has no real antagonists, players are free to individually play antagonists, but given the unsubtle way Allanaki leadership handle conflict...
120h 90s 110m 100v | Lord Templar Crushalot>say Now you shall die by my awesome roleplay.
120h 90s 110m 100v | Lord Templar Crushalot>kill rougue.gick
Well, it's not super fun "volunteering to be an antagonist" -- which is the current status quo -- given the super lame way that plot will resolve 9/10 times.
Sidenote and shoutout to the northern tribal gal behind the PBRPT who helped drive a huge battle with Allanak, gathered a bunch of allies behind her, and VOLUNTEERED to be an antagonist and COMPLETELY ROCKED AT IT. I don't know when I am going to be able to mention this character by name, because so far as I am concerned her reputation is immortal IG. I think I tried to kudos her twice.
It sucks that we currently have a state where you have to basically "volunteer" to antagonize Allanak, which given the power differential, is essentially volunteering to be killed even if you're the baddest chick to ever live like the chick I just mentioned. I feel like the Crimson Wind was kickstarted to try and generate conflict outside of a Tuluki reopening, but the Crimson Wind is still more or less "volunteering for a resistance effort where you will inevitably be killed." I would love it if things are more balanced, and I've casually mentioned the benefits of reopening Tuluk [or some other opposition force] since coming back to this game like... forty times.
I want you to take a step back from your perceived notions about what Templars do or what the posts were about and quit trying to put them to fit your narrative. Considering there are only ever typically 2 or 3 tenplars at one time that makes sense as well. Also, take a moment to think at why a Templar would be out there, solo before you start bashing play you should really take another perspective. I too have been killed by templars and raiders alike and in not so great fashions, but when I heard what was going on with the other side of it? I was amazed at the depth of reasoning and what was going on. Sure, some cases it was just bad, but I think you should start giving people more room than you are.
I give every single person who was in that battle mad props not just one single player who was apart of it. That was such a big undertaking for both staff and all players involved.
Regarding the Crimson Wind, I think you missed the point where the CW ran for quite a long time, unchecked and even when things went down they kept plowing forward without the coded support. The player behind the creation did it and actively was the change. Being an antagonist to an entire city state with mass amounts of funds, soldiers and templars immense power is never going to be easy, but there is still a way it can be done and that is proof.
Now, I do 100% agree that Allanak has completely shifted focused and without Tuluk it has been a huge push for internal conflict within than against external outside of that PBRT and few other honorable mentions. Allanak truly has nothing currently that poses any real threat with Tuluk going insane internally itself. Its why its been pushed down to the players level than Allanak as a whole, and while its not easy? Its been proven possible to do.
On Allanak being empty? There are a lot of likely reasons behind it and many of them include. People being behind closed compounds doors or even just not playing as much. There is also the switch like we all used to do of going from allanak to tuluk that now its luirs/tribal/red storm time.
@triste I think you misunderstand what the Atrium does. It trains human Allanakis to exist and succeed in clans for human Allanakis (Templarate/Noble/GMH, albeit Kurac and Salarr allow subhumans.) Aides interact with everyone in Allanak, or should, not just their friends. They talk to criminals, gemmed, soldiers, merchants, tribal, etc. (Because nobles can't or shouldn't.)
The Atrium opening back up is not making Allanak more exclusive, it is making it more inclusive for play.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 19, 2020, 10:22:06 AM
@triste I think you misunderstand what the Atrium does. It trains human Allanakis to exist and succeed in clans for human Allanakis (Templarate/Noble/GMH, albeit Kurac and Salarr allow subhumans.)
To paraphrase, "I think you misunderstand what the Atrium does. It does exactly what you said it does." Yes. Human Allanaki roleplay for Human Allanakis by definition is excluding......... every other concept.
Aides may only be allowed to be humans, but they work with all kinds. Criminal, gemmed, etc. Aides are the go between them and the nobles.
I always try rotate where I play with each character. I definitely prefer to play in a certain part of the world, but I try not to limit myself to only playing there. Also trying to rotate any clans I might play in, though I definitely know my favorites.
Want to touch on the last Crimson Wind role call those people went straight out attacking every grebber they could see and all got murdered quickly.
Also if the clans empty and CW are raiding people maybe the Templar did cause newbs were getting wrecked by people with stat bumps..
The bars are empty because a max stealth elf can go unchecked forever and never be seen robbing everyone blind.
Quote from: Thomoto on August 19, 2020, 04:40:52 AM
First off, thank you for starting this topic. Secondly, I have a few things to say about this.... Close Allanak and open Tuluk, the superior city where you can kank cat girls as a noble, hell yeah!
You are clearly joking, or never played in Tuluk. Nobles were not allowed to even touch commoners, and you would be stored for it. It was one of the major complaints about the city. If you played a Logging into Tuluk as a NOble Lady was like logging onto Facebook as a woman. You immediately get messaged by people thinking they deserved to get there dick wet.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 19, 2020, 10:22:06 AM
@triste I think you misunderstand what the Atrium does. It trains human Allanakis to exist and succeed in clans for human Allanakis (Templarate/Noble/GMH, albeit Kurac and Salarr allow subhumans.) Aides interact with everyone in Allanak, or should, not just their friends. They talk to criminals, gemmed, soldiers, merchants, tribal, etc. (Because nobles can't or shouldn't.)
The atrium is an Orphanage for Aides.
Jokes and pointing out the past aside. Alanak is hurting right now. And it's not a lack of a playerbase. We have, roughly the same general numbers showing up at the same general times we have over the years. The problem is everyone plays everywhere else. And they don't even WANT to come to Nak. Why would hunters come to Nak when there biggest customer,s the Merchant Houses, all live in Luirs now, which is also where they hunt? This is the same exact problem as Tuluk had on the playerbase. Players have NO INCENTIVE to ride through gith land, past the PC raider clan, to a city. When they can get rich, and live their whole lives in Luirs. Most of the materials in the world aren't a long ride from a central location like Luirs. And with all the major buyers staying there... Yep.
As for conflict in Allanak. I know of....1,2,3,4,5... 5 DIFFERENT noble houses open. And at least 2 living templars. Plus The Guild. People are getting assassinated, plots are hopping, and things are happening. But it's just a handful of us enjoying this.
Quote from: Bigbruiser on August 19, 2020, 10:39:37 AM
Want to touch on the last Crimson Wind role call those people went straight out attacking every grebber they could see and all got murdered quickly.
Also if the clans empty and CW are raiding people maybe the Templar did cause newbs were getting wrecked by people with stat bumps..
Yup, fair enough. Since it's been a long time, and we're talking about it anyway, full and obvious disclosure that I was one of those CW. The only notable thing I did was rescue one of the other CW, who got his ass beat and stuff stolen for being overzealous. I died while following another CW on a raid, and my character was hesitant while the other CW was... again, overzealous. It's a fair critique. But being chased down and killed by a solo Templar was still... something else. IDK, delegate your CW killing duties and spread the fun. Mon Un Fireball is quite a way to go out with six hours of playtime.
Quote from: Bigbruiser on August 19, 2020, 10:39:37 AM
The bars are empty because a max stealth elf can go unchecked forever and never be seen robbing everyone blind.
I'd like to circle back to how one of my other failed characters was backstabbed in the middle of the Gaj. But at least it was a good scene as there happened to be some staff animations right beforehand.
Can someone explain the need for a "strong" foe?
If there were 10 active players in Tuluk that were Allanak's adversaries, having those 10 players in groups like the Crimson Wind seems just as adversarial? Since the vNPC elements rarely come into play with PC interactions. The coded power seems roughly the same, if the groups have members/contacts with non-mundanes not aligned with Allanak?
So, other than just wanting Tuluk back, what really is the need for a "strong" foe with virtual backing vs a "weak" foe, when they have the same amount of PC participants?
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 10:56:21 AM
Can someone explain the need for a "strong" foe?
If there were 10 active players in Tuluk that were Allanak's adversaries, having those 10 players in groups like the Crimson Wind seems just as adversarial? Since the vNPC elements rarely come into play with PC interactions. The coded power seems roughly the same, if the groups have members/contacts with non-mundanes not aligned with Allanak?
So, other than just wanting Tuluk back, what really is the need for a "strong" foe with virtual backing vs a "weak" foe, when they have the same amount of PC participants?
The foe doesn't need to be PC. You could have arma-romans invade from the silt sea or something. Or tuluk as our NPC getting uppitty about all these southies hunting their land. OR any of the antagonist tribes used for NPC's. Make the north unsafe again.
But I think the call for this is because Military style PC's are boring. WTF do the Byn do these days? How about Arm of the Dragon and Templars in the War ministry? Hassle half elves mostly. some sort of organized threat gives these two clans more of a functioning feel. Yes I know the Arm is the law, and so on. But if you only have 10 pc's in Nak and 4 of them are the law, and 6 are proteced by employment with a Noble House, who cares?
We need more reasons for people to go to nak, other then nobles.
this was a half awake double post.
Quote from: Fredd on August 19, 2020, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 10:56:21 AM
Can someone explain the need for a "strong" foe?
If there were 10 active players in Tuluk that were Allanak's adversaries, having those 10 players in groups like the Crimson Wind seems just as adversarial? Since the vNPC elements rarely come into play with PC interactions. The coded power seems roughly the same, if the groups have members/contacts with non-mundanes not aligned with Allanak?
So, other than just wanting Tuluk back, what really is the need for a "strong" foe with virtual backing vs a "weak" foe, when they have the same amount of PC participants?
The foe doesn't need to be PC. You could have arma-romans invade from the silt sea or something. Or tuluk as our NPC getting uppitty about all these southies hunting their land. OR any of the antagonist tribes used for NPC's. Make the north unsafe again.
But I think the call for this is because Military style PC's are boring. WTF do the Byn do these days? How about Arm of the Dragon and Templars in the War ministry? Hassle half elves mostly. some sort of organized threat gives these two clans more of a functioning feel. Yes I know the Arm is the law, and so on. But if you only have 10 pc's in Nak and 4 of them are the law, and 6 are proteced by employment with a Noble House, who cares?
We need more reasons for people to go to nak, other then nobles.
You do realize that these sort of PCs rarely had any sort of threat before Tuluk closed, as well, as outside of Staff organized events they very, very rarely ever did anything that resulting in PC vs PC martial conflict? Sure, virtually, they were at war, but this more facilitated others (like GMH) enjoying some power in their ability to go North/South, so crossing a line as a Noble/Templar had some reprecussions. So it was more political anyways?
Quote from: Shaydee on August 19, 2020, 10:37:40 AM
Aides may only be allowed to be humans, but they work with all kinds. Criminal, gemmed, etc. Aides are the go between them and the nobles.
I always try rotate where I play with each character. I definitely prefer to play in a certain part of the world, but I try not to limit myself to only playing there. Also trying to rotate any clans I might play in, though I definitely know my favorites.
Eh. I play mages and criminals a lot. Interaction with aides has been extremely limited. They tend to congregate in locations (i.e. Red's) where nonhumans, gemmed and rinthis have no access, too.
RP rarely goes beyond brief requests of "Hey, I need poison/spice/my silk underwear back, can you help?", if it happens at all. And even then, most of the time you can't help and it ends there. With more aides, all you really get is a larger portion of the playerbase in an isolated upper class bubble.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 11:18:36 AM
Quote from: Fredd on August 19, 2020, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 10:56:21 AM
Can someone explain the need for a "strong" foe?
If there were 10 active players in Tuluk that were Allanak's adversaries, having those 10 players in groups like the Crimson Wind seems just as adversarial? Since the vNPC elements rarely come into play with PC interactions. The coded power seems roughly the same, if the groups have members/contacts with non-mundanes not aligned with Allanak?
So, other than just wanting Tuluk back, what really is the need for a "strong" foe with virtual backing vs a "weak" foe, when they have the same amount of PC participants?
The foe doesn't need to be PC. You could have arma-romans invade from the silt sea or something. Or tuluk as our NPC getting uppitty about all these southies hunting their land. OR any of the antagonist tribes used for NPC's. Make the north unsafe again.
But I think the call for this is because Military style PC's are boring. WTF do the Byn do these days? How about Arm of the Dragon and Templars in the War ministry? Hassle half elves mostly. some sort of organized threat gives these two clans more of a functioning feel. Yes I know the Arm is the law, and so on. But if you only have 10 pc's in Nak and 4 of them are the law, and 6 are proteced by employment with a Noble House, who cares?
We need more reasons for people to go to nak, other then nobles.
You do realize that these sort of PCs rarely had any sort of threat before Tuluk closed, as well, as outside of Staff organized events they very, very rarely ever did anything that resulting in PC vs PC martial conflict? Sure, virtually, they were at war, but this more facilitated others (like GMH) enjoying some power in their ability to go North/South, so crossing a line as a Noble/Templar had some reprecussions. So it was more political anyways?
Yes, there was barely any actual PC to PC war. This is why I suggested the antagonist not be PC's. It lets there be a bit more conflict.
However you can't deny that back when there was a faint sense of war, there was a feeling to these guilds. The Arm and the Legions actually prevented espionage between cities for instance. The Byn have always been the Byn, and need Staff assistance to do much of anything fun. and when they have that assistance,e it usualy spills out to other guilds. Like The Arm, the Garrison, CW, etc.
Most of us arent asking you to make Red Fangs playable again. I think what most people are asking for is for staff to do something akin to another gith war, or something. Give these militaries a reason to do more then spar all day. As of now the only plot I see them getting is the same plot they have had for several years.
Sewers has defilers, rawr. Arm pay Byn go In, only most come out, rawr. Wait till next sewer contract.
I'm not trying to throw shade, just trying to offer you what I see, so you can keep doing a great job.
You mean the Tablelands gith war? The one with gith PCs that (at least they were supposed to be) were supposed to be prominent in the whole thing?
Quote
But I think the call for this is because Military style PC's are boring. WTF do the Byn do these days? How about Arm of the Dragon and Templars in the War ministry? Hassle half elves mostly.
Exactly why Gentleboy rocks for bringing this up right around the time of this AoD rolecall. We are going to get a new Sarge and potentially some Privates -- what the eff are they even going to do all day?
When I played in Tor Academy nearly a decade ago, there was all this fun tension between North and South, and you'd be heckled for even fighting 'Northern Style.' If you walked up asking for things with gloves on, you got the eyeball. There was tension, and conflict.
When I played in the AoD about a year an a half ago, it did not at all resemble the military clans I played in a decade ago. Don't get me wrong; I still loved it. But it felt more like being a courtly knight; one of the greatest recognitions you could have is being a Praetorian, or basically armed aide, and RPTs involved having mock battles in the Arena.
Actually, forget my post. The irony of that fact
says it all. In the old days, we had RPTs like the Gith Wars. In the present day, Militia RPTs are
re-enactments of past RPTs or actual battles. Let that sink in because it says it all.
There isn't a need, it's just that Allanak vs Tuluk was a different game than Allanak vs Surroundings. I didn't play when Tukuk was open, but I've played games where there's one central entity vs all, and also games of entity vs entity. They're just different concepts.
For instance, Allanak vs Tuluk gives houses city-state governments to play off of one another. Allanak vs Surroundings requires houses to play against one another, instead. Allanak vs Tuluk has soldier goals for PCs that are straightforward, whereas Allanak vs Surroundings has smaller enemies - monsters, raiders, criminals, etc.
The benefit to Allanak vs Tuluk, though, is that there will always be conflict. It doesn't require the Crimson Wind to be active and have characters that are trained up, or the Guild to be powerful that week, or Kurac and Salarr to both have active characters that are down to fuck one another over when it comes to armor supply. There is always a ready enemy played.
In my experience, Entity vs Surroundings conversely requires a steady level of GMing to keep things fluid and interesting during the dips in group activity. Not all players are good at starting that conflict, it takes someone who likes GMing to put plot above their character.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 11:48:38 AM
You mean the Tablelands gith war? The one with gith PCs that (at least they were supposed to be) were supposed to be prominent in the whole thing?
Nope, I mean the one three years back that had Staff animating bands of gith against the Byn fortress, Luirs, on the trade route, etc. The one where people died by the handful in githholes, and laughed about it. That's where my Forum quote comes from actually.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on August 19, 2020, 11:55:06 AM
In my experience, Entity vs Surroundings conversely requires a steady level of GMing to keep things fluid and interesting during the dips in group activity. Not all players are good at starting that conflict, it takes someone who likes GMing to put plot above their character.
This is astute and well put; it is essentially what Fredd is asking Brokkr for in this thread.
Quote
The benefit to Allanak vs Tuluk, though, is that there will always be conflict.
Again well put, and I like this benefit a lot. I love starting conflict [
in game only of course ;)] so naturally I like the Player Entity vs Player Entity model.
But given that we have Entity vs Surroundings currently, we're going to have feedback about things being "dead" because of this GM reliance you mention. That issue is made more acute by the increased focus [as measured by the number of rolecalls and staff supported RPTs] on an increasingly insular and elite group of people. For all we know GM's are GMing steadily for that insular core, but the schmucks on the streets of Allanak, in the Gemmed Quarter, or in the 'rinth largely don't get to see it [as myself, rinthrat and others have observed].
Quote from: rinthrat on August 19, 2020, 11:27:22 AM
Quote from: Shaydee on August 19, 2020, 10:37:40 AM
Aides may only be allowed to be humans, but they work with all kinds. Criminal, gemmed, etc. Aides are the go between them and the nobles.
I always try rotate where I play with each character. I definitely prefer to play in a certain part of the world, but I try not to limit myself to only playing there. Also trying to rotate any clans I might play in, though I definitely know my favorites.
Eh. I play mages and criminals a lot. Interaction with aides has been extremely limited. They tend to congregate in locations (i.e. Red's) where nonhumans, gemmed and rinthis have no access, too.
RP rarely goes beyond brief requests of "Hey, I need poison/spice/my silk underwear back, can you help?", if it happens at all. And even then, most of the time you can't help and it ends there. With more aides, all you really get is a larger portion of the playerbase in an isolated upper class bubble.
You do have a fair point, the interactions can be quite limited. But I'm sure there is a way to make more interactions there between the different groups. I have seen aides/students in the Gaj often. So not all of them stick to areas where nonhumans, gemmed, and rinthis can't go but I do get what you are saying.
I wish a templar would come after me and a group of PCs alone. As someone who has played several templars, when other people are not on to help you do what you need to, like in real life, take your opportunity because you may not be able to get it again.
Allanak is boring, and I do try to avoid it because, while I do enjoy fighting templars outside of the city state, anyone that is a rogue magicker/raider/not normal nakki person is going to get fucked with..As they should. Templar/AOD/Noble sees something with nice gear they have not seen before, I expect them to get fucked with/questioned etc.
Brokkr is right about the conflict when Tuluk was around. That being said, I am a HUGE supporter in having big baddie staff avatars driving plots, but this is no secret and I am fine
Quote from: Pew Pew on August 19, 2020, 12:30:43 PM
I wish a templar would come after me and a group of PCs alone. As someone who has played several templars, when other people are not on to help you do what you need to, like in real life, take your opportunity because you may not be able to get it again.
Allanak is boring, and I do try to avoid it because, while I do enjoy fighting templars outside of the city state, anyone that is a rogue magicker/raider/not normal nakki person is going to get fucked with..As they should. Templar/AOD/Noble sees something with nice gear they have not seen before, I expect them to get fucked with/questioned etc.
Brokkr is right about the conflict when Tuluk was around. That being said, I am a HUGE supporter in having big baddie staff avatars driving plots, but this is no secret and I am fine
I love me some big baddie npc's. Some of my best memories of this game come from those plots.
It seems that whenever a PC becomes openly "antagonistic" and actually succeed in some way with this antagonism, and they aren't codedly/staff supported like a sorceror, they eventually just get stomped in some way they can't control at all. Like a Templar teleporting them into the Arena or some such.
Usually, mundane antagonists don't live long. It's hard to blame people when they don't want to do this, and opt to just sit waiting for something to 'happen' for them to participate in without getting goomba stomped by half of the PC game world. Which usually doesn't actually happen, as there's a lack of available open plots/things like that. This leads to boredom, and then people not playing the game at all in Allanak.. and other places too.
In my opinion, the change for plots and all that to become (almost) entirely player-made was a mistake. Especially now that there's no over-arching conflict for Allanak to participate in like there used to be with Tuluk.
I like this thread. It gets the creative juices flowing.
As I see it, we have an imbalance of power problem that is stifling meaningful conflict with Allanak.
I see two possible corrections to level the playing field: either introduce a new enemy on par with Allanak's power, or nerf Allanak's power to put them on par with existing threats.
For the first option we'd need something like Tuluk reopened or some Big BaddieTM clan with staff support.
For the second option, I could imagine a scenario where Tektolnes gets really upset with his minions and decides to strip all Blue Robes of their magick, or maybe limit them to one spell each. Now the Templar PCs are just rich warriors who have to martial groups of other PCs to contend with their enemies. We'd still have the Red and Black Robes with "real power" to keep the city intact against virtual threats.
Quote from: Obeliskocism on August 19, 2020, 03:03:25 PM
I like this thread. It gets the creative juices flowing.
As I see it, we have an imbalance of power problem that is stifling meaningful conflict with Allanak.
I see two possible corrections to level the playing field: either introduce a new enemy on par with Allanak's power, or nerf Allanak's power to put them on par with existing threats.
For the first option we'd need something like Tuluk reopened or some Big BaddieTM clan with staff support.
For the second option, I could imagine a scenario where Tektolnes gets really upset with his minions and decides to strip all Blue Robes of their magick, or maybe limit them to one spell each. Now the Templar PCs are just rich warriors who have to martial groups of other PCs to contend with their enemies. We'd still have the Red and Black Robes with "real power" to keep the city intact against virtual threats.
Good summary of the situation and good proposals. Templars still have and would have a plethora of benefits, but it might be enough to just nudge the balance as you describe. Your proposal specifically also solves the problem of Gemmed not having enough to do [imo].
I would much prefer the first option. The game is not supposed to be balanced. Nerfing templars because they are more powerful than a group of mundane seems silly.
I want more Malikiths, Nektols, Akaria's and Samos'. Templars that keep the plots moving, players involved, and giving people a reason to fear fucking in or around the city. Nektol was the worst fucking templar in a good way. Everytime this dude would walk in people would shit their pants and know it was tax time or your going to be an indentured servant...Malikith, if you fuck with the city or its interest, he is going to fucking stomp you if you are not being reasonable. Samos....still..scared of him.
I think part of the reason players die to templars and have bad experiences is because they do not RP correctly with them..They are fucking sorcerers. You get caught or going to fight them, you likely would run. It's the same problem but opposite with sorcerers. A majority of pcs are like OH COOL let's be friends with them even though the documentation states you should be acting differently.
We need competition for Allanak
Fun fact; I once called Malikiths boring to his face and lived.
Also; I'm so glad this post is staying a great discussion thread. Thank you all for respecting one another.
I'm radical. I'm very happy with my current pc who is in Allanak currently. I love this character but, with them I've learnt why the city is hurting. I'm a true believer in "if something is not working, it's okay to scrap it and try again".
Is it wrong that I want Allanak to be purged and a different force to take over the city? It would be wild to see Allanak knocked down a peg and the political system shaken to the core. Change excites me while I know it scares others. What do we lose by having an outside force sack Allanak? Maybe they bring rain with them. Maybe they drain the silt sea and turn all elves into like salt thralls. Who knows. The world and Allanak as the center of the world, the one thing others have called 'Truly Zalanthas' is bone dry. And it's not just a "it's a quiet period". The city has lost its charm and feels like a relic of old times. It's a new era, a new hungry era of players that can't remake what once was.
Quote from: lairos on August 19, 2020, 10:19:17 AM
I want you to take a step back from your perceived notions about what Templars do or what the posts were about and quit trying to put them to fit your narrative. Considering there are only ever typically 2 or 3 tenplars at one time that makes sense as well. Also, take a moment to think at why a Templar would be out there, solo before you start bashing play you should really take another perspective. I too have been killed by templars and raiders alike and in not so great fashions, but when I heard what was going on with the other side of it? I was amazed at the depth of reasoning and what was going on. Sure, some cases it was just bad, but I think you should start giving people more room than you are.
Sorry, but to accuse someone of narrative shifting with the argument the interesting part of the conflict is happening behind closed curtains completely unbeknownst to the victim/target is rather silly. Mature players with many deaths across several years know whether or not they are satisfied with how a conflict plot turns out when their time comes, and I have no reason to believe Triste isn't one of them with the way they speak about conflict despite how I might disagree in certain aspects. Being intimate with both sides of the Templarate and criminality in the timetable Triste is discussing I can say with one hundred percent certainty that there were swathes of deaths during it that were orchestrated in completely bogus or unimaginative ways, and I don't even play elves. No mature player expects a villain/hero monologue upon their death, but mature players expect to be treated with respect by their adversaries and not just wiped out of the game because it is easy or they are a minor inconvenience. That is not the spirit of what is at the end of the day a role-playing video game meant to be enjoyed by all involved.
Shit happens, that's arguably the best part of this game, the emotional investment that can be snatched away at any moment. Yet to expect the snatching to be done by someone who promotes involvement and conflict rather than squashes it immediately in what could be argued is some sort of meta-laziness isn't a tall ask. Conflict can be either resolved or maintained in a thousand interesting ways that I personally don't see very often because it would seem the composure or wit to do so has been discarded by tired role-callees or simply never existed in the first place. By no means have we been bereaved of it, but that dignity and flavor offered to other players by the Allanaki powers-that-be since I started playing has been on a steady decline and the population has certainly correlated. I believe people are tired of getting kicked in the ass by uninspired or one-note players and have sought their enjoyment elsewhere, either locked away in clan compounds or out of the city entirely.
I say all of this and [big meanie templar who I don't think has been gone for more than a year yet] is by leaps and bounds my favorite player I've interacted with in my time with the game.
Soda, while I respect your opinion, data on Triste's previous posts on other threads, and knowing who they played, suggest otherwise. I too had a lot of interaction on several sides of this and even was close to this Templar on a few characters which got to see several different sides. While I'm sure other cases can be made around others I'm more specifically calling out what has been provided in the post about one single individual and this guy let far more live than die.
Knowing these things and watching the relation to PK posts they were in 2 different realma. It makes anything that was claimed hard to believe as the narrative was adjusted to be in their favor.
Here's a radical idea. Have the tektolnic plates shift under the Vrun Driath and split Allanak apart like Pangaea.
Imagine dozens of crim-code free wilderness/rubble rooms separating the market from the commons from the merchant quarter from the noble quarter from the Templar quarter. How more important would guards and patrols and friends suddenly become?
Every time that mundane aide needs more candles, they must get guards to escort them to the shop!
Quote from: Obeliskocism on August 19, 2020, 05:46:47 PM
Here's a radical idea. Have the tektolnic plates shift under the Vrun Driath and split Allanak apart like Pangaea.
Imagine dozens of crim-code free wilderness/rubble rooms separating the market from the commons from the merchant quarter from the noble quarter from the Templar quarter. How more important would guards and patrols and friends suddenly become?
Every time that mundane aide needs more candles, they must get guards to escort them to the shop!
That would be sweet. Reminds me of old tuluk!
Quote from: Pew Pew on August 19, 2020, 05:37:28 PM
Soda, while I respect your opinion, data on Triste's previous posts on other threads, and knowing who they played, suggest otherwise. I too had a lot of interaction on several sides of this and even was close to this Templar on a few characters which got to see several different sides. While I'm sure other cases can be made around others I'm more specifically calling out what has been provided in the post about one single individual and this guy let far more live than die.
Knowing these things and watching the relation to PK posts they were in 2 different realma. It makes anything that was claimed hard to believe as the narrative was adjusted to be in their favor.
https://youtu.be/o6ZrD5h4BBc
Quote
It seems that whenever a PC becomes openly "antagonistic" and actually succeed in some way with this antagonism, and they aren't codedly/staff supported like a sorceror, they eventually just get stomped in some way they can't control at all. Like a Templar teleporting them into the Arena or some such.
Quote
I can say with one hundred percent certainty that there were swathes of deaths during it that were orchestrated in completely bogus or unimaginative ways, and I don't even play elves.
Oh wait, this
isn't a flame war against me. I'm not the only one on trial. Other people observed more or less what I ventured to share but it's alright. Don't roast individuals, there are a lot of people who have seen for themselves what I'm talking about.
No, not gith war etc. And CW is raiding clan verses players not verses allanak, even if the templars do get involved now and again, like they did with blackmoon, that is not "allanak" getting involved.
Enemy was the wrong word. Allanak has no rivals. It used to, A place with every counterpart, not just military or police force.
As to "allanak verses surroundings" That would only work if Nak took some sort of major hit...And I mean MASSIVE, to put it where "surroundings" Were actually a threat. So people would have reason to not like/trust outsiders like they used to with the north (or south) accent...something that also no longer matters.
Oh, also, Broken stealth meta.
Quote from: Pew Pew on August 19, 2020, 05:37:28 PM
Soda, while I respect your opinion, data on Triste's previous posts on other threads, and knowing who they played, suggest otherwise. I too had a lot of interaction on several sides of this and even was close to this Templar on a few characters which got to see several different sides. While I'm sure other cases can be made around others I'm more specifically calling out what has been provided in the post about one single individual and this guy let far more live than die.
The dynamic between both templars we referenced was fantastic and whatever wealth of kudos they both got were well deserved. Both heavy handed in nuanced ways, promoted other's plots, never shut people down just because they could. From what I've personally seen, both set varied examples of what Templar archetypes should look like. Whatever ire expressed in my previous post was not directed to either in the slightest. Of course no one can claim "they did no wrong" but I think both were wonderful and I wish more folks tread in their footprints.
Yet to clarify I'm not talking about specific cases such as Triste's, I'm talking about sentiments that are very real and can be improved upon by the players responsible for such sentiments, and how rejecting them with the simple excuse of "there is more going on than you know about" is trite. You mentioned the word "reasonable" and that's probably one I was looking for but didn't find exactly. Both players were incredibly reasonable in their own aspects, and I never felt like I was interacting with a brick wall with their own staunch IC/OOC agenda that if I interrupted in any sense I'd be seeking a quick drab death. That is the sort of attitude that has been lost over time and is, in my view, one of the reasons Allanak is depopulating.
Quote from: triste on August 19, 2020, 05:53:20 PM
Oh wait, this isn't a flame war against me. I'm not the only one on trial. Other people observed more or less what I ventured to share but it's alright. Don't roast individuals, there are a lot of people who have seen for themselves what I'm talking about.
Sorry if it was taken as flaming, I had no intention of doing so. I'm just trying to make sure facts are straight. No one is arguing that there were not a lot of deaths or has not been in Arm over any number of years. No one is arguing that some PK's are not as eventful or even as imaginative as others and things do happen. These are all known and agreed on. All I am trying to point out is the specific narrative you provided didn't seem accurate despite the fact that they may have felt and been perceived that way to you. I am doing this while also trying to help the player of of specific character that it appears you are trying flame because they can't even speak up for themselves because I have experienced far different in the same realm.
I missed a ton since I posted! I could have worded things better and for that I apologize. I never want to diminish what someone had experienced, but I have seen that particular instance brought up in a couple of places such as discord. You're absolutely correct that it is the responsibility of each player to try and enrich the experience on both sides and it sounds like it had gotten missed on at least one side based on the note. The addition I was trying to make was I always try to give the benefit of the doubt to all sides involved because I would like to imagine that everyone gives their best efforts and sometimes things may not come off that way in the moment.
We're gonna drop it and move on lads. There are 34 better topics in this thread.
I still think the Tuluk fort should be given a Templar to recruit a unit of Sun Legion and wipe out the horrible gicks hiding in the north and maybe running Morins.. Or even a Tuluki noble house governor in Morins with a unit of witch/undesirable hunters.. (Lyksae?)
Quote from: Spiceoflife on August 19, 2020, 06:42:39 PM
I still think the Tuluk fort should be given a Templar to recruit a unit of Sun Legion and wipe out the horrible gicks hiding in the north and maybe running Morins.. Or even a Tuluki noble house governor in Morins with a unit of witch/undesirable hunters.. (Lyksae?)
I love this idea and it's variants whenever it comes up. The other variant is open Jihaeans and 1-3 Tuluki Houses. It would be all you need to have enough of a "presence." Even your idea of having just one unit would be fun as a sort of "one shot campaign" similar to what some folks here are asking for.
If you want to play a Tuluki, nothing is preventing you from playing a Tuluki (born in Morins, if less than 40-something years old).
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
If you want to play a Tuluki, nothing is preventing you from playing a Tuluki (born in Morins, if less than 40-something years old).
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
But that's not playing a real Tuluki citizen though, is it? That's playing a citizen of Morins who has a Tuluk tattoo.
Also, why can't anything be done to fix the issue of them all being old? I can't imagine they would do absolutely nothing and just die out of old age.
Somewhere in the thread, the "big baddie" was brought up and I kind of wish it was either (or even both) the Sandlord (who could turn out to be a lady) or Luir's himself. I would want go back to when there was undead baddies from what I heard.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
If you want to play a Tuluki, nothing is preventing you from playing a Tuluki (born in Morins, if less than 40-something years old).
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
Yes, you are free to play a (explicitly staff stated) indy northerner with no staff support whatsoever. (Maybe this has changed as a policy?)
Did you play when Tuluk was part of the game? I think most of what people miss in Tuluk is when the game had a large focus on the story, over the mechanics. It gave the world a massive scope compared to what it is, it really did.
I remember when A southern Templar and a northern Templar conducted a whole formal alliance to fight dragon sworn. Shit like that really captivates and drives player attention and participation.
I don't know why, but it just seems like you guys are super intent on not listening to player input about this issue. I mean the amount of people who have brought up and longed for tuluk even on these boards is overwhelming--But what they get is an administrator trying to persuade them that they must be mistaken. I don't understand. I also play in bursts and don't put near as much time in anymore, so maybe i'm just missing all the excitement that started this thread in the first place.
Code additions? They've been amazing. Super high quality of life stuff, genuinely.
My input comes from a place of actually REALLY coming to like allanak in the consolidation. I would hate to see you guys continue stripping allanak of playable clans and such, especially physical rooms.
So Tuluk is there and shouldn't be ignored. but "the Templars outside are all old". So do we ignore them since templars are not coming out to protect their lands?
Quote from: Hauwke on August 19, 2020, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
If you want to play a Tuluki, nothing is preventing you from playing a Tuluki (born in Morins, if less than 40-something years old).
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
But that's not playing a real Tuluki citizen though, is it? That's playing a citizen of Morins who has a Tuluk tattoo.
Also, why can't anything be done to fix the issue of them all being old? I can't imagine they would do absolutely nothing and just die out of old age.
There is no such thing as a citizen of Morins. Morins before the fall was mostly rented to Kadius, but it was always Tuluk property, with Tuluk citizens, outside of the foreign workers associated with Kadius.
As far as being old, I mean, how would you fix it?
Quote from: Aruven on August 19, 2020, 10:42:52 PM
Did you play when Tuluk was part of the game?
Yes. And I really liked playing there. And then the Cataclysm came and burned it all down. Filthy magickers.
Quote from: Spiceoflife on August 19, 2020, 11:26:00 PM
So Tuluk is there and shouldn't be ignored. but "the Templars outside are all old". So do we ignore them since templars are not coming out to protect their lands?
Maybe just don't ignore being a Tuluki when you are playing a Tuluki.
Every conversation devolving into "reopen Tuluk" is annoying but a majority of the staff responses telling people that it can't open because of the IC reasons, or plain old saying players don't actually want Tuluk reopened, doesn't seem to help put the issue to bed. If staff created a locked or unlocked thread about "why Tuluk isn't being reopened now" that delved into the logistical reasons instead we might be able to maintain a discussion that doesn't touch upon it.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on August 19, 2020, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
If you want to play a Tuluki, nothing is preventing you from playing a Tuluki (born in Morins, if less than 40-something years old).
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
But that's not playing a real Tuluki citizen though, is it? That's playing a citizen of Morins who has a Tuluk tattoo.
Also, why can't anything be done to fix the issue of them all being old? I can't imagine they would do absolutely nothing and just die out of old age.
There is no such thing as a citizen of Morins. Morins before the fall was mostly rented to Kadius, but it was always Tuluk property, with Tuluk citizens, outside of the foreign workers associated with Kadius.
As far as being old, I mean, how would you fix it?
Quote from: Aruven on August 19, 2020, 10:42:52 PM
Did you play when Tuluk was part of the game?
Yes. And I really liked playing there. And then the Cataclysm came and burned it all down. Filthy magickers.
I would fix it by changing the docs to allow for younger ones to be present. It may not even require extensive change. Time passes, they now train new ones to take up the mantle and the old pass their power on.
People change over decades, Brokkr. They aren't stupid people, the Templars are some of the only educated people in the Known.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on August 19, 2020, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
Also, why can't anything be done to fix the issue of them all being old? I can't imagine they would do absolutely nothing and just die out of old age.
As far as being old, I mean, how would you fix it?
...did they not have little Templary babies?
I was going to post that I'd like to keep this thread about Allanak and not Tuluk, but I understand now that you cannot talk about Allanak without talking about Tuluk. Which sucks because I've never known Tuluk, seen it, experienced it and I'm supposed to just...hate it as a new player if I play in the South. Which feels silly. Cause how can I hate something I've never seen or truly know about? I guess it makes it real with xenophobia in a lot of causes..assuming the worst.. but- you get my point.
New players are told to stick to Allanak. We are told to join the Byn or a different clan. Okay, none of the merchants are in Nak. They're in Luir's a lot (who can blame them) which leaves crafters aimless or trying to get to Luir's. So- that drives one portion of players out. Then we are told to join the Byn where we aren't paid, can't go outside, and only advance combat skills. I've always been a fan of the Garrison because of 1. getting paid. 2. The gorgeous plans/schedule/formations made by a particular player. 3. The survival training and outside outpost training you are SUPPOSED to get.
In Allanak, new players are told to stay in the walls. Sometimes we're thrown a creature name from the North here and there that we don't know. Whatever.
I have a lot of issues with the timeline of Allanak too and how history is conveniently forgotten in a lot of cases. Nothing gets learnt. Borsail's whole mansion got burnt down at one point. Sewer wars. Dwarf uprisings. What else? History is hidden from new players till it's told to them oocly through discord. There is no history lessons, no storytellers you can pay in the city. Someone told me you can pay bards all over Tuluk to tell little tales. That's so cool. Vennat or whatever, the barkeeper in the Gaj is talking about Earthquakes still. I've never seen a fucking earthquake or felt one in Allanak.
Allanak is supposed to be an oasis from the hard outside. It has shade, food, water, materials, medicine. But so does everywhere else now. Red Storm (my favorite place) can take care of you easily after two days of skilling up forage. Luir's- people just throw shit at you for free. Cause free-thinking people tend to head to Luir's or stay in the wastes and then use Luir's as their hub cause the North has plenty to explore and no Templars or milita to interrogate you every time you come back from killing a single chalton. I love templar interaction, but, I don't care for instantly being labeled a criminal because a templar hasn't seen me before and I'm an assumed outsider .
I'm trying to think about other issues I also have with Allanak, a place I will gladly choose second under Red Storm.
I dunno, maybe the fact that after I amount some coin, I have no place safe to put the things my character cherishes like gifts. Even if you become like a big merchant or independent, you will get your apartment not just stolen from, but clean out, entirely. And that's not cool or very elf of you. We are told if you want safety, make coin. But there is nowhere safe to stash the things your character loves. It doesn't even need to be rare! It can be as stupid as some drums or like...a linen shirt or I dunno just an awl. Hide your tools cause apparently, these miscreant classes need awls and tools so badly, they will take them over and over.
Allanak doesn't feel like a believable place to live too at times. It feels more like a place to work and people can commute to...from the Gaj. I guess. Cause, for a big city with hundreds and thousands of people about, everyone either is a "well, I guueeeeesss I'll dedicate my life to the highlord" or "I'm just doing my year here before actually doing what I want." Allanak is a hurdle for many that we need to get through and yeah, that won't make me love a city. It makes me resent it and talk shit about it as soon as I leave it.
The lack of history keeping is one the other main issues that I have work Allanak also. I love to explore the lore of the game more than the environment. Aside from House Sath not having an estate, I think that clan needs to be opened work a noble and an Allanaki lore keepers. In the flip side, do we need another open clan?
Quote from: Spiceoflife on August 19, 2020, 06:42:39 PM
I still think the Tuluk fort should be given a Templar to recruit a unit of Sun Legion and wipe out the horrible gicks hiding in the north and maybe running Morins.. Or even a Tuluki noble house governor in Morins with a unit of witch/undesirable hunters.. (Lyksae?)
Also, yo, this idea is gooooood. I'm imagining the inquisitor from Pathologic 2.
Quote from: Barsook on August 20, 2020, 08:10:03 AM
The lack of history keeping is one the other main issues that I have work Allanak also. I love to explore the lore of the game more than the environment. Aside from House Sath not having an estate, I think that clan needs to be opened work a noble and an Allanaki lore keepers. In the flip side, do we need another open clan?
Anyone with literacy or an interest in lore could be a lore keeper. I always kudos characters who share lore IG, and Gentleboy's comment about "only learning history OOCly" makes me 100% satisfied with my decision to ignore Discord [which is well established to be nothing but a canker sore that oozes pus and OOC information].
I always joke that if I ever get a GMH role [which will never happen but I'll keep applying!] that I'd basically just write and read books all day because I am also hungry for that lore and would try to chronicle as much history as possible, because agreed, this does not happen enough in game. I was excited for two entire seconds when the Atrium opened figuring it would be wonderful for teaching lore, but of course it's so exclusive as not to meaningfully change much culturally.
Here's a dumb random idea for making Allanak suck less.
Bring back more Arena events and Gladiator alt PCs. First, when I say this, I don't want to come across as once again criticizing staff, and I actually want to thank Caverin and other staff members who helped run the arena recently.
It gets back to the whole public versus private idea. Public arena events necessarily involve a ton of players. The bell mechanism ensures everyone can knows exactly when the event is happening.
For whatever reason one of the RPTs I thought about recently IRL? A scene from an Arena fight. Some of you all are great roleplayers and I adore good combat roleplay.
I also loved the way you could have a gladiator alt character because, of course, they are locked in the pens and thus safely separated from your full time PC, thus allowing you to have two PCs. More options for roleplay like that intrinsically rocks. If anything I think it would be wild and TONS of fun if EVERYONE could have a gladiator alt character and Arena events were automated and almost daily or weekly. I personally found gladiator alt characters extremely gratifying just because they would break up the ennui you might experience on your main character. I'd probably dump and rotate characters less frequently if I could reliably have a gladiator alt.
The lovely side effect of all of this; bringing more players to Allanak, if only by allowing someone with a rogue half-elven northern gick as their main PC to also play their gladiator alt character.
Wow, the first and only idea that irrefutably would bring more players to Allanak if only as a matter of a statistical fact.
Just a random idea. You might want some restrictions around it, like you can only log into your alt gladiator 2 hours a day + as long as events last. But it seems like a win-win-win idea. It also restores part of the documented setting that a lot of players enjoy playing out.
Quote from: triste on August 20, 2020, 09:18:00 AM
Here's a dumb random idea for making Allanak suck less.
Bring back more Arena events and Gladiator alt PCs. First, when I say this, I don't want to come across as once again criticizing staff, and I actually want to thank Caverin and other staff members who helped run the arena recently.
It gets back to the whole public versus private idea. Public arena events necessarily involve a ton of players. The bell mechanism ensures everyone can knows exactly when the event is happening.
For whatever reason one of the RPTs I thought about recently IRL? A scene from an Arena fight. Some of you all are great roleplayers and I adore good combat roleplay.
I also loved the way you could have a gladiator alt character because, of course, they are locked in the pens and thus safely separated from your full time PC, thus allowing you to have two PCs. More options for roleplay like that intrinsically rocks. If anything I think it would be wild and TONS of fun if EVERYONE could have a gladiator alt character and Arena events were automated and almost daily or weekly. I personally found gladiator alt characters extremely gratifying just because they would break up the ennui you might experience on your main character. I'd probably dump and rotate characters less frequently if I could reliably have a gladiator alt.
The lovely side effect of all of this; bringing more players to Allanak, if only by allowing someone with a rogue half-elven northern gick as their main PC to also play their gladiator alt character.
Wow, the first and only idea that irrefutably would bring more players to Allanak if only as a matter of a statistical fact.
Just a random idea. You might want some restrictions around it, like you can only log into your alt gladiator 2 hours a day + as long as events last. But it seems like a win-win-win idea. It also restores part of the documented setting that a lot of players enjoy playing out.
Oooh I like this! I never really got to experience/witness any gladiator arena events!
(I think maybe one time but that was about a year ago and a half ago and it was brief as I was still newish and really nervous about RP where there is a lot of people)
Quote from: Shaydee on August 20, 2020, 09:24:07 AM
Oooh I like this! I never really got to experience/witness any gladiator arena events!
(I think maybe one time but that was about a year ago and a half ago and it was brief as I was still newish and really nervous about RP where there is a lot of people)
Let me assure you it's a heckin' blast. And things in the gladiator pens can get very... interesting.
Edit/extraneous brain farts on why this is good:
- All the activity in the stands is good for trade and commerce as commoners necessarily rub elbows with merchants, and Templars rub elbows with nobility.
- Not everyone has to or wants to make a gladiator, of course, but letting our new players experience the existing mechanisms for the Arena and Gladiator alts would be lovely.
- Gives something for all those new AoD to do. Arena events can notoriously get a little... out of hand, and Militia help is often needed in the stands. And of course, they often participate in events directly [as do other military clans if they wish].
Downsides:
- Possibly boring to seasoned vets, but if we automate it and make it less of a special-app based affair, that would make it spicier and nice to have as an option.
- Taxing for staff to manage manually, or implement at first, but if automated hopefully not bad long term.
Quote from: Kyviantre on August 20, 2020, 07:47:26 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on August 19, 2020, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
Also, why can't anything be done to fix the issue of them all being old? I can't imagine they would do absolutely nothing and just die out of old age.
As far as being old, I mean, how would you fix it?
...did they not have little Templary babies?
Traditionally, no.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 20, 2020, 10:53:06 AM
Quote from: Kyviantre on August 20, 2020, 07:47:26 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on August 19, 2020, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
Also, why can't anything be done to fix the issue of them all being old? I can't imagine they would do absolutely nothing and just die out of old age.
As far as being old, I mean, how would you fix it?
...did they not have little Templary babies?
Traditionally, no.
Lirathans were female psychics, and for the most part, not even noble.
Not a clue what was up with the kung-fu masters, and how they got chosen.
However they would have found a way to continue this. You aren't just going to give up your entire system of government. Not in an authoritarian monarchy like that. Maybe house Winrothol started breeding psychics, and now there's an army of Muls and Mindworms getting ready to march on Luirs?
If I recall correctly, the reason why gladiatorial apps got shut down was due to lack of interest. People weren't apping. They scraped the barrel once, they scraped the barrel twice and then if there's no interest, then there is no interest.
Not too dissimilar to Tuluk truly. There was a small number of people who loved Tuluk thoroughly. But a vast majority disliked it immensely. And lack of players willing to be part of Tuluki society tended to prevent clans from functioning right. Although I do think that due to some innovations from staff, the last few months of Tuluk were incredibly awesome. Dont really know why it culminated into a shut down.
My point though is try to realize what exactly you're missing. You want Tuluk back, but what exactly about Tuluk that you want to return? You want gladiators to return, but what is it you're missing about them? Because if it returns and results in a sudden uptick of interest, which will fade and dissapear in six months. What then? I guess gladiators you can shut down again, but you cant 'reclose' Tuluk. And you cant completely leave it unstaffed, as people will start using it for hunting grounds and whatever else.
And if you open Tuluk with it being exactly the same as it was, it would be a loss of such a great opportunity to revamp it into something so different and awesome. You can only reopen that city once. Personally, I'd prefer to wait ... maybe years, but to make that absence 'worth' it. Then to have it reopen, observe the interest raise ... and wane, and be back to same ol' same ol'.
I'm sorry, but if you dont count the last few months of Tuluk (When the city had the most creative and energetic staffers working it up), Tuluk itself ... sucked butt. Many people who have lately been saying how much they miss Tuluk, or how awesome it was, were making posts at how shitty it was when it was open. How the society didnt work, how it's various cultural aspects killed roleplay, instead of encouraging it.
Quote from: Fredd on August 20, 2020, 11:00:52 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 20, 2020, 10:53:06 AM
Quote from: Kyviantre on August 20, 2020, 07:47:26 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 11:43:37 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on August 19, 2020, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 19, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
Also, all the Templars outside of Tuluk are really old at this point, if you've been paying attention to the math.
Also, why can't anything be done to fix the issue of them all being old? I can't imagine they would do absolutely nothing and just die out of old age.
As far as being old, I mean, how would you fix it?
...did they not have little Templary babies?
Traditionally, no.
Lirathans were female psychics, and for the most part, not even noble.
Not a clue what was up with the kung-fu masters, and how they got chosen.
However they would have found a way to continue this. You aren't just going to give up your entire system of government. Not in an authoritarian monarchy like that. Maybe house Winrothol started breeding psychics, and now there's an army of Muls and Mindworms getting ready to march on Luirs?
Are you taking into account what is inside of closed Tuluk, and what is outside? Because as soon as you throw out Winrothol, it seems more like maybe not.
Quote from: Barsook on August 19, 2020, 08:37:58 PM
Somewhere in the thread, the "big baddie" was brought up and I kind of wish it was either (or even both) the Sandlord (who could turn out to be a lady) or Luir's himself. I would want go back to when there was undead baddies from what I heard.
Coming back to say I also think this sounds super cool, but not sure how that would bring more to playing in Allanak.
Quote from: Barsook on August 19, 2020, 08:37:58 PM
I would want go back to when there was undead baddies from what I heard.
Also what? Undead baddies?
Quote from: Dar on August 20, 2020, 11:08:04 AM
If I recall correctly, the reason why gladiatorial apps got shut down was due to lack of interest. People weren't apping. They scraped the barrel once, they scraped the barrel twice and then if there's no interest, then there is no interest.
What kind of metric is a "lack of interest." Someone just said they were interested in gladiators.
All evidence indicates there is interest, so you can get out of here until you have metrics instead of generalities.
[edit] Sorry that came off too adversarial, but someone just posted the same argument as me here, but more longwinded -- why do people keep telling people what they want? Mindworms don't exist in real life, get over your power and omniscience complexes. Gladiators were closed right when I was itching to play one, and IIRC the message when it closed more had to do with Staff capacity, which I empathize with as someone who is also busy
and doing stuff like posting during work.
I played in Glads both as a perennial combatant (Necksnap) a few years ago and more recently as both Penned and Reigning (Marcelana.) Interest with the clan was waning for a long time until staff eventually stopped getting apps altogether. It was indeed closed for lack of interest.
I remember it was hard to get people to even interact with my Champion a lot of the time, let alone get players to app.
Also keep in mind that opening glads means that you're tying one or more staff to animate Games events 1-3x a month which is a lot to ask. These events are a lot to prepare for (create NPCs) and then also animate them for the events, sometimes before the events, etc. I would estimate it's roughly 10-20 hours a month of committed time, minimum.
This does not include PC setup for new penned or Reigning.
Also, you need a dedicated Doyen PC which is more restrictive than even gladiator PCs and requires similar hours to a leader so that glads get trained.
If players really want it and the clan gets enough apps/continued interest, that's cool. But it's a big ask. I think the clan is great but many players would not enjoy it. It also requires of players in the clan to align on peak 2x a month for these events, etc.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
I played in Glads both as a perennial combatant (Necksnap) a few years ago and more recently as both Penned and Reigning (Marcelana.) Interest with the clan was waning for a long time until staff eventually stopped getting apps altogether. It was indeed closed for lack of interest.
I remember it was hard to get people to even interact with my Champion a lot of the time, let alone get players to app.
Also keep in mind that opening glads means that you're tying one or more staff to animate Games events 1-3x a month which is a lot to ask. These events are a lot to prepare for (create NPCs) and then also animate them for the events, sometimes before the events, etc. I would estimate it's roughly 10-20 hours a month of committed time, minimum.
This does not include PC setup for new penned or Reigning.
Also, you need a dedicated Doyen PC which is more restrictive than even gladiator PCs and requires similar hours to a leader so that glads get trained.
If players really want it and the clan gets enough apps/continued interest, that's cool. But it's a big ask. I think the clan is great but many players would not enjoy it. It also requires of players in the clan to align on peak 2x a month for these events, etc.
And this is exactly why I said if it could be automated and more fully player driven that would be a boon, per my original post. I love it when arguments against my ideas ultimately reinforce them, but I also understand staff is also strapped for coding resources so I'll drop it.
So far the only thing no one has shat on is the major adversary idea, which I also support, so woo that idea! (and sorry noobs who would be interested and probably rock in the role like Shaydee, I tried).
* Watches the one idea that would have in fact brought more players to Allanak, unequivocally and logically speaking, flush down the "your interests don't matter, only mine do" drain *
Quote from: triste on August 20, 2020, 12:12:03 PM
* Watches the one idea that would have in fact brought more players to Allanak, unequivocally and logically speaking, flush down the "your interests don't matter, only mine do" drain *
I don't know who you're directing this to but it just seems like you're posting to post rather than providing something to the thread. Staff would like to open the clan I'm sure but whether or not there's enough interest is to be determined.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2020, 12:17:44 PM
whether or not there's enough interest is to be determined.
I love the use of passive voice "is to be determined" as that is the core of the problem. How is interest determined? Is it determined by how many people say they like an idea, or how many people who post to say their idea is bad, so bad? How about the people who are quiet at the sidelines?
And here we have another mega-thread. I've put a lot of ideas on the table, many of which have support. I love the ideas people are sharing here, but would love to see something actionable arise from this.
Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2020, 12:25:02 PM
Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.
That is an incredibly flawed metric. Players are penalized for having short lived characters, and so try to have long lived characters. Therefore, players will not be able to apply to all the concepts they are interested in. This is obvious. Applications is not a metric for interest due to.... logic.
Quote from: triste on August 20, 2020, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2020, 12:25:02 PM
Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.
That is an incredibly flawed metric. Players are penalized for having short lived characters, and so try to have long lived characters. Therefore, players will not be able to apply to all the concepts they are interested in. This is obvious. Applications is not a metric for interest due to.... logic.
I don't understand why you think that a clan which requires PCs can exist without players apping in to play those PCs. Please explain?
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2020, 12:28:41 PM
Quote from: triste on August 20, 2020, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2020, 12:25:02 PM
Just as when the clan was closed, the amount of interest isn't determined by you or me in this thread. It's determined by continuous apps from the playerbase. PCs regularly die in the clan. About 1 a month, sometimes more.
That is an incredibly flawed metric. Players are penalized for having short lived characters, and so try to have long lived characters. Therefore, players will not be able to apply to all the concepts they are interested in. This is obvious. Applications is not a metric for interest due to.... logic.
I don't understand why you think that a clan which requires PCs can exist without players apping in to play those PCs. Please explain?
Imagine a situation where a game has a dwindling playerbase. You're the last member of a clan. You live under a logical regime laid out by IsFriday where if a clan becomes empty, it shall, must, and will automatically close.
You've played this role, alone, with no clan interaction. You don't want to store and have the clan closed, because you love it. You want to play something new and,
gasp, have fun, but duty binds you. You are a prisoner.
[Wow, I sure am glad applications and rules like the person replying to me seems to be proposing don't actually exist.]
You are leading us down a tangent, IsFriday. Respectfully, drop it.
Not to be combative, but you tend to be more tangent oriented than anyone I see on these boards. You reply to yourself constantly. But ignoring that, he's just asking how this idea which you claim would unequivocally bring players back works when player interest drove them to close this clan.
Quote from: StrangledShriek on August 20, 2020, 12:34:26 PM
Not to be combative, but you tend to be more tangent oriented than anyone I see on these boards. You reply to yourself constantly. But ignoring that, he's just asking how this idea which you claim would unequivocally bring players back works when player interest drove them to close this clan.
I am being 100% noncombative and operating with facts.
Here's the facts. This is the statement on why Gladiators closed:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55150.0.html
No mention of "due to a lack of applications." I am happy to debate with you all, but use facts like I do maybe.
I'm going to say this once, and once only. Knock off the self-back patting, grand standing, passive snipes and anything else to do with it, as I am so tired of having to comb past such to find anything of substance.
If that isn't possible, I will absolutely see you removed from the GDB.
It's the same argument as Slave PCs. Just because someone says they are interested on the GDB doesn't mean they will actually apply for, and play, a slave PC. The same goes with a Gladiator PC. It's all and well to say 'I would love this' and 'I would love to play a Gladiator', but I don't think Staff arbitrarily shuts down a clan due to lack of interest just because it rolls off the tongue well.
As well, playing an Alt Character Gladiator sounds cool (particularly if you are playing in another part of the world, and you can login to your Gladiator PC for arena events) but it's also a lot of work / PC Separation. I have a hard enough time putting hours into my main PC, to have to split it between two seems crazy. I had applied for a Penned gladiator at one point and withdrew the application after being accepted, due to lack of time.
I don't think the Gladiators as a whole provide anything for Allanak beyond consistent distraction. That's not a bad thing. The arena games were a cool reason to log in. I liked the variety of Champions/Reigning Gladiators to interact with. But it also ran into the same problem that a 'Red Robe' or 'Lieutenant/Captain in the AoD' or other high glass-ceiling PCs do/would. They are simply around too much to increase the WoW factor. When you see a Reigning Gladiator or the Champion of the Arena every other day, the shine wears off. They become more mundane, and thus, both more vulnerable and written off. They achieve the opposite of the intended result -- instead of being flashy and neat, they become mundane and boring, from no fault of their own. It would be silly to tell a player 'play less because you are around too much'. Thus, the problem with high glass-ceiling PCs, including Gladiators. Again, all in my own observational opinion, not stated as fact.
I doubt there is anything stopping enterprising players from app'ing in Tuluki PCs in Morin's Village and starting a rebel Warband. It'd take a lot of work, much like a player clan would, and may be fruitless. But like Brokkr pointed out, too, we tend to wear rose-tinted glasses when it comes to Tuluk v Allanak. There was rarely martial PK / PvP interactions. But! There was plenty of mystery, vague conflict, conflict between Nobles, conflict between opposing Templars, and a ton of spy craft. It just didn't necessarily bleed over to all out war or PvP.
Then again, the Copper Wars were one of the best moments for the game in its history, I think. It also was a different time when it occurred, a different team of Staff, I think the percolation of 'Armageddon Reborn' had started even that far back, so. I dunno. I don't necessarily want Copper War v2.0, but something like it would be a more welcome distraction than Gladiators (IMHO).
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on August 20, 2020, 12:43:35 PM
Then again, the Copper Wars were one of the best moments for the game in its history, I think. It also was a different time when it occurred, a different team of Staff, I think the percolation of 'Armageddon Reborn' had started even that far back, so. I dunno. I don't necessarily want Copper War v2.0, but something like it would be a more welcome distraction than Gladiators (IMHO).
More or less agree, and I am constantly mentioning the PBRPT just because I feel it was the most recent thing that felt close to that and I absolutely loved it. Kudos [again] to all staff and players involved. As myself and others mentioned, the more self-renewing the conflict the better. Having it player driven is one way, but there are other ways to make conflict sustained and self renewing. One possibility is a new frontier with many hostile foes that sometimes extend themselves for RPTs / conflicts. Almost like a wall of white-walkers -- walking towards their territory or camp would be instant death, but over the course of in game months or even years Allanak could combat them. The semi-automated nature would make it less work and more fun for all involved.
Gladiators were a gimmick, and no gimmick will revitalize Allanak as a sphere of play. The fundamental problem is that almost none of the traditional city-based concepts have any solid basis in today's gameplay. They're predicated on imaginary/virtual things. The things that were meant to be the "content" for those roles have been removed or never existed.
It's not that interesting to embark on the role of a soldier when there hasn't been a war in many RL years and no prospects of any in the future. It has become a life of patrolling the increasingly empty and uneventful streets. You're not a soldier, you're the neighborhood watch. You can play a soldier from recruitment to retirement and see no more action than the occasional batch of animated gith or raiders that were there for you to wipe out so you could feel at least a little bit relevant.
It's pretty dull to play in the GMHs because they're now basically one big clan with no real friction between them, and their main base of operations is halfway across the world from Allanak. There's nothing going on that merchants can really have an influence on, either. You know... like war profiteering and things like that? You have no opportunities to branch out into anything new because for some reason, merchant houses in Zalanthas are glued to the same industries throughout the entire history of the world. What happened to the Salarri Expansion Division? That was the golden age of GMHs, and that was a long time ago. Playing in a GMH now feels like working a retail job.
Indie merchants? What are they supposed to strive for? It takes a laughably long time to work your way toward a warehouse and trading company status. Once you have a few thousand 'sid, you discover that there isn't really anything to spend it on besides continuously paying people to leave you alone, which they will right up until there's any actual reason to stop leaving you alone, because that money you're paying them is worth way less to other players than the opportunities for conflict that everyone's so starved for. Also nobody wants your crafted goods. There's no demand for any of the shit that unclanned crafters can offer, especially now that shops never reset and are bursting at the seams with equipment.
There's no support whatsoever for the elven side of the 'rinth, and thus no players there, so the human side is left to sit around and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for someone to order some spice once a month just so they can feel like the Guild has a reason to exist.
The Byn is a great introduction to the game's combat system, but what's the appeal for experienced players beyond a legal source of combat training? Far from gritty mercenaries, they've just become the guys that escort you from Allanak to Luir's. There's nothing else there. You can't do anything in this game anymore that warrants hiring a mercenary company save for pointless mini-quests like "go kill a silt horror."
Nobles have nothing to work with because the world stands still. The hierarchy of houses never changes so there's no competition to speak of, there's no enemy city to interact with, there's no platform for political actions. Of all the various nobles I've seen pop up in recent years, they have a 100% track record of being seen in public once or twice when new and are then never heard from again. And still more noble houses keep opening. None of them are based on ideas that you can just log in and work on on a random afternoon, you're perpetually waiting for a response to your requests. It's not like you can just log in and go work on your festival or sewer project when it suits you. It's almost like a play-by-post experience.
Hunters? Well, the GMHs no longer have hunting divisions, so it's just a life of collecting shells and hides to sell to whatever crafter needs them in order to skill up leatherworking and armormaking. Keeping fed is a complete non-issue in this game so there's no sense of hunting to bring home the bacon, you're just amassing piles of skinned crap and hoping someone will take those twenty scrab shells off your hands at some point. Without actual clan positions, the role of a hunter in Armageddon is most akin to that of a gold farmer in WoW.
I could keep adding to this list but I won't. The point is that for most of the game's built-in city-based roles, the supposed reason to play that role turns out to be completely artificial and not supported or backed up by any actual demand for it. The same problem existed with some of the discontinued clans as well, such as the Borsail Wyverns, a clan of slavers in a game where enslavement isn't possible. That clan was wisely shut down as the role was simply incompatible with the game, but as more and more layers have been peeled off of ArmageddonMUD, a similar fate has befallen almost all roles. As a result, people make characters that are simply free to dick around, which usually means characters that aren't tied to the city of Allanak.
I am pretty sure House Fale moved up in rank thanks to a certain noble that has to be the longest lived noble ever.
Greve's post hits the nail on the head.
Greve's post is accurate.
So what's the solution? Or was this just a treatise on how everything is broken [which I suppose is on topic]. Are you just going to lay out what's broken, nod and hum in agreement, and see how Staff react?
[not goading, genuine questions]
Many of those roles depend on sitting in a Tavern (or wherever) and socializing, plotting, and whatnot being as important to the character (and one could say, player) as going and actually doing stuff.
If players shift to focus more of their activity to actually doing stuff, of course those roles suffer.
The game is at its best when there is a mix of different interests in what the game has to offer, and a variety of different play styles actively participating (social, combat, explorer, plotter, politic focused, etc.). As soon as there is a shift, in any direction, of one "meta" or play style or whatever you want to call it as being predominant, the game suffers, IMHO.
First...my GDB is broken. PHP formatting isn't working. If the text of this is all messed up, that's why, and I apologize in advance if so.
RE: Tuluk
Tuluk does not need to be necessarily re-opened to stabilize the conflict situation. The consolidation of playerbase into less locations was good, in my opinion...HOWEVER. I have been on that whole kick of 'open more clans' for a long time...when -clans- got consolidated, it removed the faction-based internal workings of the city. Even
when noble guards don't have a ton to do...it's necessary for them to be there so that nobles don't need to extradite everything they want done to others. Even when merchant hunter groups seem unnecessary, it -is- necessary for there to be wilderness-based groups operating consistently out of the city. Internal strife is necessary
to a single-city state. And I don't mean a bunch of behind the curtain stuff. Conflicts, alliances, and shifting loyalties need to be visible to more than just the schemers at the top; it's something for the populace as a whole to rule behind, and thus put actual impact on the diplomacy of every character, from the noble to the indie who
hangs out with different groups.
RE: Uber-stealth
Look. Again, when people were calling out for the stealth classes to be mixed/muddled together or combined into a single rogue class, I talked about this. They were well placed, before. Pickpockets were inventory manipulators, but easier to track down or trap. Burglars were the master stealthers, but struggled the most in conflict
and were really mediocre at using their strong stealth for much more than exactly what they had, which was break-ins. Assassins were strong enough combatively, but were, truth be told, quite hard to establish an economy with and usually needed clans, associates, or patrons. The class roll-out happened. Everyone said just give it
a shot. You're seeing the impact of having a class that can't be tracked by other classes well and has all the manipulation/inventory management/combat ability of the rogue classes from before, combined. It's incredibly hard for anyone to deal with this class as an adversary, and you've hit the point that people are comfortable with
the security and knowledge that I told you would happen. These classes are not well-designed. At all.
RE: Gladiators and Slaves
It's okay for there to be lack of interest in a thing. It really is. Roles have always waxed and waned in this game. -Relatively- recently, things have shifted much more towards 'active clan attention' for things like this, which has made it so that it's only open if it's open, and it's closed when it's closed. Makes sense, right?
But let me remind you that there was a good period in time where almost all things were open, and where multiple groups were 'dead' at any single point in time. But the playerbase shifted from place to place based off of how strength and interest shifted around the game. I'd strongly suggest you stop leaning on role-calls and
direct sponsorship of clans to determine if people can play them or not. My opinion and possibly misguided view is that we shifted things too far towards staff ease-of-use...we don't promote from in-clan nearly as much for leadership roles, it seems. We gave oversight over an entire zone to staff teams instead of breaking it up by
clan so that inter-clan intrigue was actually possible. We closed off roles based off staff interest instead of player interest. It really didn't feel healthy.
RE: Antagonist Roles
I played antagonist roles quite a bit. Expecting things to go a certain way as an antagonist is a mistake...in a sense, realize right off the bat that you're going to be outnumbered and outgunned, and plan accordingly. People want to know why antagonists are such assholes...it's because they are in one giant slog of an uphill
battle. Eliminating an enemy is incredibly valuable when it comes to realizing that they have about fifteen different possible deaths waiting in the rafters. This got far worse after the elimination of multiple clans performing overlapping roles. Antagonists to one group are supposed to be protagonists for another group, and that
simply doesn't exist in many facets of the game anymore. Antagonists are alone or next to alone unless they can manage to build something big themselves (which can end in true heartbreak) or they revise their mission statement to join one of a few factions still supported in the game.
In summary of those points that were brought up...'neat and tidy' organization of the game doesn't work well. Faction-based conflict is important. More smaller factions is better than a few big ones. A few big ones allows more to have access to these events, but reduces the potential and number of unplanned events and long-term
events that make logging in every day feel like it needs to be done just so you don't miss something important to take advantage of. And most importantly...we tend to write these things off as either a staff-sponsored problem or a player-perception problem. The reality is that it's both. Players can do wonders to create
play with what they're given...and staff can really facilitate things to move into a good game direction if they acknowledge that not every idea ends up as a good one, and will actually retract policy/administrative changes that are more stifling than helpful to the game, instead of just what feels better and easier from their end.
An accurate diagnosis of a problem is the first step towards a solution. I think the best thing you can do to help encourage good solutions on this Triste is to maybe put down the keyboard for a few days and let some other people weigh in and share their thoughts. If your goal is actually to see some good discussion here that generates food for thought, creating an atmosphere that's a little less confrontational could help a bit... just my humble advice, not intended to be a jab at you. I respect the passion you have for the subject, I share it, but you're pushing a little too hard here imo.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 20, 2020, 03:20:51 PM
An accurate diagnosis of a problem is the first step towards a solution. I think the best thing you can do to help encourage good solutions on this Triste is to maybe put down the keyboard for a few days and let some other people weigh in and share their thoughts. If your goal is actually to see some good discussion here that generates food for thought, creating an atmosphere that's a little less confrontational could help a bit... just my humble advice, not intended to be a jab at you. I respect the passion you have for the subject, I share it, but you're pushing a little too hard here imo.
At no point have I tried to silence anyone. Anyone is free to speak, including me. I just like asking for
solutions and
facts. I've tried to bring some facts and solutions myself; give more than you take you know? But you want me to be quiet. Sure. I'll be polite and go away a moment but I have every right to speak and you can't stop that, wiz.
[edit] People are asking me to be quiet, but still replying to me and asking questions and out of politeness I will reply when people reply to me.
Quote from: triste on August 20, 2020, 03:31:25 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on August 20, 2020, 03:20:51 PM
An accurate diagnosis of a problem is the first step towards a solution. I think the best thing you can do to help encourage good solutions on this Triste is to maybe put down the keyboard for a few days and let some other people weigh in and share their thoughts. If your goal is actually to see some good discussion here that generates food for thought, creating an atmosphere that's a little less confrontational could help a bit... just my humble advice, not intended to be a jab at you. I respect the passion you have for the subject, I share it, but you're pushing a little too hard here imo.
At no point have I tried to silence anyone. Anyone is free to speak, including me. I just like asking for solutions and facts. I've tried to bring some facts and solutions myself; give more than you take you know? But you want me to be quiet. Sure. I'll be polite and go away a moment but I have every right to speak and you can't stop that, wiz.
It was in no way an attempt to silence you, Triste. Your reaction to these posts is making me personally, a little uncomfortable. We are all nerds who play MUDs here. Slow down, man. Many of your points are valid. But sloooow dooown.
No offence of any kind ment. And it weirds me out that I feel that I need to add that statement.
Quote from: triste on August 20, 2020, 02:24:17 PM
So what's the solution? Or was this just a treatise on how everything is broken [which I suppose is on topic]. Are you just going to lay out what's broken, nod and hum in agreement, and see how Staff react?
[not goading, genuine questions]
Isn't it pretty obvious what my suggested solutions are? When I say "playing a soldier is boring because there's no military conflict," it's redundant to add "solution: create military conflict." When I point out that the lack of support for 'rinth elves has caused that area to die out, I don't need to explain that the solution is support for eastsiders. It should be obvious to anyone who isn't being wilfully obtuse.
Quote from: Greve on August 20, 2020, 04:05:30 PM
Quote from: triste on August 20, 2020, 02:24:17 PM
So what's the solution? Or was this just a treatise on how everything is broken [which I suppose is on topic]. Are you just going to lay out what's broken, nod and hum in agreement, and see how Staff react?
[not goading, genuine questions]
Isn't it pretty obvious what my suggested solutions are? When I say "playing a soldier is boring because there's no military conflict," it's redundant to add "solution: create military conflict." When I point out that the lack of support for 'rinth elves has caused that area to die out, I don't need to explain that the solution is support for eastsiders. It should be obvious to anyone who isn't being wilfully obtuse.
I didn't see a solution for the Byn, and several of the cases. How do we action on this? A lot of this is just stuff I've already proposed, as well as others, so how do we move forward? Vote?
[Sorry I know people asked me to be quiet I just need solutions]
The Byn will serve a purpose again when there is once more stuff to do that warrants hiring a mercenary company. It's not my job to say what that might be.
The noble houses will cease to be a pointless waste of space when there is once more stuff going on that justifies the existence of half a dozen purely political roles.
Same goes for GMHs, etc.
A lot of these problems come down to the fact that the story aspect of Armageddon is dead as a doornail and nothing really meaningful happens 99.999% of the time, leaving players with a game where the only thing going on is whatever they can build up from nothing. A lot of roles simply aren't equipped to do that (how can a soldier start a war?), and in order to build up anything that hasn't been done eight hundred times before (who really gives a shit about "indie merchant hiring hunters" #4932?), players require constant staff support which they almost never get.
In the face of such stagnation, it has become more appealing to just play ranger types who roam around and "explore" and dick around, since that is at least something to do, instead of participating in the roleplaying environment, particularly in a place like Allanak where the majority of clans prevent you from leaving the city at all.
Quote from: Greve on August 20, 2020, 04:18:52 PM
A lot of these problems come down to the fact that the story aspect of Armageddon is dead as a doornail and nothing really meaningful happens 99.999% of the time.
This is a particularly strong problem statement, and alas again I don't see a solution. This isn't a critique on you. I am just exhausted of these endless megathreads, and not only because things I don't like such as ad hominem attacks might creep up.
And because this is such a strong problem statement akin to the #deadgame meme, I just fervently want to find a solution. One possible solution I've mentioned is to put more power in the player's hands, EG, more opposing factions to drive military and mercenary conflict, or a city elf tribe to help revitalize C-Elves and the rinth, what have you. Myself, and so many people, including you, propose great ideas. But I caution on saying things like "It's not my job to say," and "the story aspect of Armageddon is dead as a doornail," without at least
trying to offer a solution. And yes you offered some solutions but here again we have a black-and-white pessimistic statement about nothing happening 99.999% of the time. I would give Staff enough credit to say it's only 97% of the time.
[And BTW I love you all and just have a rare easy day at work but will try to stfu]
It hardly seems to matter what solutions and suggestions we come up with as they've fallen on deaf ears for years.
Quote from: Greve on August 20, 2020, 04:35:50 PM
It hardly seems to matter what solutions and suggestions we come up with as they've fallen on deaf ears for years.
Now you're getting it.
Quote from: Riev on August 20, 2020, 04:37:17 PM
Quote from: Greve on August 20, 2020, 04:35:50 PM
It hardly seems to matter what solutions and suggestions we come up with as they've fallen on deaf ears for years.
Now you're getting it.
Is that the problem then, that feedback isn't taken?
This thread is nearly identical, now, to the Content and Creation thread. There Staff volunteered kindly to be secretaries for us, itemizing the issues brought up, and responding to them.
Again I <3 this game for still existing, but I would love to no longer see 30 years of growing pains and a more organized way of solving the issues we observed. OP proposed blowing up Allanak which I applaud for being dramatic and creative at least.
Confrontational posts and complaints that staff don't listen do not help motivate anyone to spend their free time trying to improve things. This "us" vs. "them" mentality on these boards is toxic and counter productive.
Rather than say the staff don't listen, which is completely false they read all these threads just like everyone else, the fact is there may be disagreement on these issues. I certainly wouldn't want to engage in discussion with anyone behaving the way some are on this thread is... maybe if we lower the pitch forks it could get more productive? It's a game we all love guys and gals...staff wouldn't spend the time if they didn't feel the same way. Let's try to make a more inviting environment to encourage that discussion?
A call for civil discourse.
What are your particular questions, Wizturbo? I'll go back through the whole of the thread once more and see who else posted something, asking for such.
**Edit to add, seems about a little past half, for various questions. Whether those questions were directed in hopes of a staff reply, or from the player base at large, I don't know. But I'll see about posting up some things after making a cheat sheet of them all.
An example of why it's a difficult problem to solve through black and white measures:
Proposed Example of introducing more conflict around population centers:
-Yaroch and other farming villages are attacked every other RL day. A variation between raiders, ex-slaves, critters, and Northern Soldier NPCs. It isn't on a set schedule, just happens when it happens. Similar to the 'Jail Code', Templars/AoD are alerted when it happens. Better yet, it checks to see if X amount of people are on in the AoD before loading the program.
-Similar but with Luirs (Alerts GMH/Captain/Garrison of a Gith Attack), Morin's (Alerts...Tuluki?), and so on.
-Randomly loaded 'Labyrinth' NPCs in Allanak proper at night. Gives people a better reason to hire single Mercenaries to guard them to and from work and the bars. Gives AoD NPCs to capture/run down inside the city. Adds danger to otherwise non-dangerous streets.
-Allow the program to be manually toggled by a Storyteller, so they can instigate 'Yaroch Raid Program: Raiders/Slaves/Critters/Northerners' and it takes off.
Positives to the proposal:
-Gives people things to do, places to defend, things to work towards, and train for/against.
-Makes the world slightly less static.
-Gives a reason to log on every night, to see if it's 'Protect the Farmstead' RPT night.
-Allows Staff to instigate random encounters without too much backend/preparation.
The problem with such a proposal:
-Writing Code. Takes time, and takes time away from other projects. Difficult to balance without extensive testing.
-Gets old. Same NPCs/attacks ad nauseam will grow stale after a month or two, particularly if they can't be ended or stop through PC efforts.
-Dying to NPCs isn't as much fun as dying to PCs.
-A ton of effort for maybe not that much payoff.
This is just off the top of my head. What might seem like a good idea on paper, as you dive into it, begins to fall apart when trying to address the infrastructure of the game.
It's difficult. I agree that the Story of Armageddon maybe hasn't been as popping as it once was. But I get surprised during random encounters, or on some PC I'm playing, and have a fantastic experience that flies in the face of that. Sometimes things click, other times they really don't. I take more breaks than I used to, but that's probably a good thing. There is more competition than ever with Armageddon in the video game universe, and the line of 'I can tell the best stories in ArmageddonMUD because of my imagination and cooperative storytelling with other PCs' just doesn't seem to ring as true as it used to. Video games have gotten better, much better than in the late 90's/early 2000's. ArmageddonMUD has gotten incrementally better, particularly from the code side of things, but has otherwise just 'changed'. Some changes for the better, others for the worse, depending on who you ask, the list changes and differs.
I don't love playing in Allanak and never have, but with fewer options for places to play in, I find when I've bored of Wilderness Location/Luirs/etc I usually just take a break rather than playing there.
Hi Shabago. I personally would love to hear the staff perspective on what Greve posted a little ways back. Not saying that the post was diplomatic in its unpacking of the issues, but I personally agree with the ultimate diagnosis and would love to hear what the staff think there. Is he (or she) accurately capturing an issue with the game, or do you guys see it differently? Sometimes it's hard to parse out what's noise, and what are actually addressable issues.
Quote from: Greve on August 20, 2020, 01:27:21 PM
Gladiators were a gimmick, and no gimmick will revitalize Allanak as a sphere of play. The fundamental problem is that almost none of the traditional city-based concepts have any solid basis in today's gameplay. They're predicated on imaginary/virtual things. The things that were meant to be the "content" for those roles have been removed or never existed.
And why is that, do you figure? Because staff don't run all the NPCs on an endless basis?
It's not that interesting to embark on the role of a soldier when there hasn't been a war in many RL years False and no prospects of any in the future. Very False. It has become a life of patrolling the increasingly empty and uneventful streets. You're not a soldier, you're the neighborhood watch. You can play a soldier from recruitment to retirement and see no more action than the occasional batch of animated gith or raiders that were there for you to wipe out so you could feel at least a little bit relevant.
So I'm left to lament players back in the day who made this really, really false too. Gin? Amun? Gage? Even on back to Thrain, there were nobody PCs that were able to make certain the life of these people were never dull, and in return - those soldier pcs made certain their lives were never dull. Unless, of course, this is one of those "Staff never do things" stand-points, which Luirs and the PBRPT alone sort of counter.
It's pretty dull to play in the GMHs because they're now basically one big clan with no real friction between them, Ah, so PCs stopped trying to muscle in on territory, like the entire set up was done for? and their main base of operations is halfway across the world from Allanak. Well, their main base is actually 1/5th the size of holdings in Allanak, much like their wealth and political clout. Indeed, outside of Kurac, Salarr and Kadius are encourage to be in Allanak as much as possible for the vast population difference/realism of intended profits. There's nothing going on that merchants can really have an influence on, either. You know... like war profiteering and things like that? You have no opportunities to branch out into anything new because for some reason, merchant houses in Zalanthas are glued to the same industries throughout the entire history of the world. What happened to the Salarri Expansion Division? That was the golden age of GMHs, and that was a long time ago. Playing in a GMH now feels like working a retail job.
If we discard the Luirs Council, I suppose, and expansion further feeds into your point below - indies/pclans. So, GMH expands and now anyone wishing to create a PClan has all the nieces snapped up.
Indie merchants? What are they supposed to strive for? It takes a laughably long time to work your way toward a warehouse and trading company status. Once you have a few thousand 'sid, you discover that there isn't really anything to spend it on besides continuously paying people to leave you alone, which they will right up until there's any actual reason to stop leaving you alone, because that money you're paying them is worth way less to other players than the opportunities for conflict that everyone's so starved for. Also nobody wants your crafted goods. There's no demand for any of the shit that unclanned crafters can offer, especially now that shops never reset and are bursting at the seams with equipment.
The latest MMH status holder and another approaching it would like a word here, I suspect.
There's no support whatsoever for the elven side of the 'rinth, and thus no players there, so the human side is left to sit around and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for someone to order some spice once a month just so they can feel like the Guild has a reason to exist.
For the better part of two years, the elven side of the Rinth was decimating the west. Mass population and interest, then died/dwindled out. Further, as referenced in other locations on the boards here, work is being done on a C-elf tribe by staff.
The Byn is a great introduction to the game's combat system, but what's the appeal for experienced players beyond a legal source of combat training? Far from gritty mercenaries, they've just become the guys that escort you from Allanak to Luir's. There's nothing else there. You can't do anything in this game anymore that warrants hiring a mercenary company save for pointless mini-quests like "go kill a silt horror."
You can't? Huh. So your rich merchant type can't pay them to go start a war with the CW? Luirs? A tribe? Maybe they laugh at you for not wanting to get killed. Maybe they take it, maybe you're out bid and get dead yourself.
Nobles have nothing to work with because the world stands still. Currently really false. The hierarchy of houses never changes It has. so there's no competition to speak of, there's no enemy city to interact with, there's no platform for political actions. Such as? What political actions are you after? I can currently think of at least 6 political deals that occurred across the Known for said Houses, two "trials", a political assassination, two new things Houses make/present and so on. Of all the various nobles I've seen pop up in recent years, they have a 100% track record of being seen in public once or twice when new and are then never heard from again. Do they? I seem to recall some very long lived, super invested and plot starting nobles/Templars within that time period. Was effort made to make contact with them through an aide or Way directly? Outside of the Arboretum, it would be a little odd for Noble X to just sit in Reds all week so people know they exist. And still more noble houses keep opening. None of them are based on ideas that you can just log in and work on on a random afternoon, you're perpetually waiting for a response to your requests. It's not like you can just log in and go work on your festival or sewer project when it suits you. It's almost like a play-by-post experience.
Blood Market, Ocotillo Fest, A potential territory take over, a massive risky/expensive expedition outside the walls, and various internal character growth wants, or House directed goals have all been seen here, within that time frame mentioned.
Hunters? Well, the GMHs no longer have hunting divisions, And yet still steadily need and by from said hunters. so it's just a life of collecting shells and hides to sell to whatever crafter needs them in order to skill up leatherworking and armormaking. Keeping fed is a complete non-issue in this game so there's no sense of hunting to bring home the bacon, you're just amassing piles of skinned crap and hoping someone will take those twenty scrab shells off your hands at some point. RP out finding contracts before you start over hunting for said items? Without actual clan positions, the role of a hunter in Armageddon is most akin to that of a gold farmer in WoW.
I could keep adding to this list but I won't. The point is that for most of the game's built-in city-based roles, the supposed reason to play that role turns out to be completely artificial and not supported or backed up by any actual demand for it. Make that demand. On either side of the coin. The same problem existed with some of the discontinued clans as well, such as the Borsail Wyverns, a clan of slavers in a game where enslavement isn't possible. That clan was wisely shut down as the role was simply incompatible with the game, but as more and more layers have been peeled off of ArmageddonMUD, What has been taken away, save Tuluk? A new Delf tribe was made, the Muark came back, more Houses were open, and something else was added that some folks haven't found yet. More content has gone in, rather than out. a similar fate has befallen almost all roles. As a result, people make characters that are simply free to dick around, which usually means characters that aren't tied to the city of Allanak.
I suppose that will ensure the problem is never fixed then, if everyone wants to run off into the corners and never find interaction, tell a story or play the bad guy and instead wait for someone else to do it?
So, perspective and view done on some things there, which generally falls on the player side of things. Now for the staff side. No, absolutely not are we perfect and never will be. We try and continue to try to inject X and Y into Z for different people, regardless of where they play. There have been RPTs, plot hooks and animations and there will continue to be more of the same. A few months back, I remember outright asking/telling people that if they wanted to attempt X to let us know and try to work with us. 2-3 players decided to do so and /things changed/ - all three gained support. So, please - if you see a hole the story, fill it. Or fill it on your next pc. Take some creative ownership of your own shared experiece. Armageddon is a collaborative story that ever continues to move on, but that has to be done from both sides of the fence and both taking accountability of what does and doesn't happen. Fwiw, I and the rest of the team continue to have ideas for bigger things, changes, rpts, and goals at large. I'll hope to see some of you seeking to be part of them.
I know this is unrelated to the topic at hand, but blue text is really hard to read on a dark theme.
ETA: Damn You Shabago for posting before I could get this posted!!
The problem isn't with Allanak. The problem is with the players (if the shoe fits, wear it).
Recently (within the last 6 months), an event was held in Allanak that had multiple pieces that people could enjoy. There was something for everyone to do and if your character wasn't necessarily allowed in IC'ly, there were still opportunities for you to insert your character or take advantage of a number of events, yet people whined up and down that they were robbed from participating because it was only meant for those with money or of a certain race. NO, YOUR Character didn't have enough money to participate, however, there were a number of events that didn't require money. BUT THEN you had people respond with, "I'm not good at story-telling, joke-telling, fighting, brawling, drinking, WHATEVER!!" All they did was come up with lame excuses about how they didn't fit precisely into most events, so they didn't participate, so they complain.
!!!MAYBE THE GAME IS DULL BECAUSE YOU ARE DULL!!!
Look, YOU need to take initiative. Find a problem that you want addressed and start addressing it IC'ly.
"There needs to be more antagonists!!" - Play an antagonist. There are far too many ways to do this.
"There needs to be conflict between *whoever*!!" - Create conflict between whoever by whatever means. Again, way too easy. Join one of the clans you want to see conflict in and start driving things that way.
"Allanak barely has a population of players!!" - Play an interesting character that others want to play and interact with. Start something -OR- join someone else's interesting character and work together.
"Thieves steal all my stuff when I sit in taverns!!" - Don't bring all your valuables to the tavern. How many of you in real life take thousands of dollars with you to the club when you know you're just going to get half-wasted and lewd? YOU DON'T!! Don't do it in game!!
"People need a reason to come to Allanak." - Play an indie crafter in Nak. Apply for a Noble or even a Bastard and start to make things happen. The coin has to be worth the risk though, or start bartering!!
YOU CAN make your own fun and start your own goals.
There was a gemmed (I think a year ago) that paid to have a Gith captured alive so they could see if they could communicate with it. For those that participated, that was a fun evening. And that is something oh so very minor.
I've requested to start making changes in the game that my character did not realize, but was realized by a character that they influenced. VERY COOL!! (even if I'm a little jealous)
Every time I've requested changes or tried to make changes, Staff has addressed my efforts and either made the change, or it was worked by someone else who saw the fruits of my labors. There have been other issues that they've told me No on as well.
Currently, I put in my character reports how I'm trying to create mini-plots, like I did with my too-recent Byn SGT, and guess what, people jump in with you on your mini-plots!!
TL;DR If you create/play an interesting character, people will come to play with you.
Quote from: Shabago on August 20, 2020, 06:27:07 PM
I suppose that will ensure the problem is never fixed then, if everyone wants to run off into the corners and never find interaction, tell a story or play the bad guy and instead wait for someone else to do it?
Is there discussion as to why people are running into corners on the staff level then? More specifically why player led conflict is having trouble flourishing in a visible and engaging way.
When I started a year and a half ago the big names that everyone knew were two touched non-humans running their own successful gangs, a rogue magicker and his group grudging against gemmed Allanakis, an organized band of mundanes in the north with a nuanced leader and agenda, a well known cannibal sewer mutant, and some mundane breed wanted across the known that people thought was immortal. All grey antagonists, all fruitful in their endeavors to establish themselves as producers and summoners of conflict, all well entrenched over a healthy period of time. Additionally they all represented different realms of the game and at one point in time coexisted entirely. To my knowledge, since then those "big names" have turned into X number of sorcerers. Period. Throw one mul in there. There have been many mini-conflicts and of course great smaller antagonists in the meantime, but as a continually worldly player since then I can say with some certainty not one has reached the level of those mentioned towards the start in terms of recognition or weight.
There has to be some thoughts as to why these conflict creating individuals had the footing to do what they did in that period of time and why individuals are failing to find that footing today, or plain not seeking it. I've discussed my theories earlier in this thread but I'd be interested in hearing what you and other staff members think.
I just think losing all your weapons in 20 seconds is the bad thing, I don't care if you steal my coins, food etc just when you take every damn weapon I am carrying in minutes grinds my gears.
Quote from: Dar
It was in no way an attempt to silence you, Triste. Your reaction to these posts is making me personally, a little uncomfortable. We are all nerds who play MUDs here. Slow down, man. Many of your points are valid. But sloooow dooown.
No offence of any kind ment. And it weirds me out that I feel that I need to add that statement.
Thank you for saying what I could not without sounding and coming off as offenseive.
This is an open question for staff in general that is in response to a statement made by Brokkr.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 20, 2020, 02:48:44 PM
The game is at its best when there is a mix of different interests in what the game has to offer, and a variety of different play styles actively participating (social, combat, explorer, plotter, politic focused, etc.). As soon as there is a shift, in any direction, of one "meta" or play style or whatever you want to call it as being predominant, the game suffers, IMHO.
Does staff try to keep track of how effectively Arm serves all of the different interests and take action if one of them becomes too over-centralizing in a way that negatively affects the girth of the others?
For the record, at least half my characters are someone's bad guy. The other half are hunters.
This thread is interesting because a lot of older players have different solutions than newer players. Just thought that was a cool thing.
In my opinion,
A lot has changed, but the story of the world is lacking in the publication of world events, so to the public face it seems like very little has changed.
I would push to have more public knowledge of ongoing events in the game from 6 months ago. If a noble, 6 months ago, did something cool, I'd want it to be shared somewhere, even if they were still alive 6 months later. I mean, other than logging in and reading the IC rumor boards - how else am I to know that there was two public trials, a political assassination, house fale is now top tier, and the eastside elven tribes now run the guild.
I also had no idea anything changed. The "find out IC" nature of the game keeps a lot of us uninformed... sounds like a lot of cool stuff isn't being noticed by the ever growing "dormant" portion of the player base. Would it be a bad idea to maybe have an out of game rumors board people could see? It would last longer than in-game boards, and could be an easier way to keep people "in the know". Maybe just have it be in Discord?
I honestly don't see the secretive, "Find out IC" nature of the game changing anytime soon. It'll continue to make the game look dead to anyone who isn't in the know enough to be aware of things. But that seems to be the way things are intended to be.
If you want to know things, you have to actively get involved in them. Otherwise the information just does not trickle outward.
But we find out most of our information OOCLY on the discord when people talk about shit that happened.
Years after the fact.
I'm not talking about revealing the secrets of the universe here. But big events that just about anyone would hear about if they were around in-game there isn't any harm in publicizing a bit. The staff announcements section can easily have important information buried, or obviously never mentioned at all... Anyway, just an idea.
I would make two easy changes.
1. Make sure everything ends up on the history page. That includes weird spires of sand that show up over night and and skirmishes on the salt flats. Seriously. I still don't even know what happened in Luirs. Like come on.
These are all great hooks to get people involved and keep the game from looking dead. Put it all in a place where people can easily find it. Take a look at the Arx website just to see how well it's served. Recent events are on the front page.
2. Make in game rumor posts available out of game. Let people hear rumors from the city even if they're not in the city. That way it'll be easier to connect to player plots.
Quote from: tapas on August 21, 2020, 09:39:02 AM
2. Make in game rumor posts available out of game. Let people hear rumors from the city even if they're not in the city. That way it'll be easier to connect to player plots.
I'm all for this, or taking it a step further, connecting all the rumor boards. Traders trade. They also sit in taverns and talk. Each city should have a tag next to the post so we would know where it originates. But at least this way the big news gets around like it should.
I just want Hiring posts on the Website.
This way when my character eats it, I can roll up something that somebody needs!
Quote from: Black Flag on August 21, 2020, 01:17:07 PM
I just want Hiring posts on the Website.
This way when my character eats it, I can roll up something that somebody needs!
I am all for role calls like that; one of the best roles I've played recently was from a role call here [sorry if the the feeling was not mutual fam]. We could definitely afford to expand our tooling around role calls / job listings, such as allowing players to post a role call anonymously [or not] on the site. I made a script that did this for another game in discord, I'm sure staff here could come up with a good solution using the request tool. Only risk is the list becoming stale or the like.
Quote from: Black Flag on August 21, 2020, 01:17:07 PM
I just want Hiring posts on the Website.
This way when my character eats it, I can roll up something that somebody needs!
This is a good idea and another thing Arx does very well. There's 100+ characters for anyone to jump into. Complete with a history involving other characters and a decent skillsheet.
+1 Would 100% love to be able to post in the Player Announcements section:
QuoteNeeded, someone who can make armour to join indie outfit. EST timezone preferred, any class/subguild, northern play area.
QuoteJoin Kadius today! We are looking for tailors and basketweavers. Travel required, politicking taught, any timezone!
QuoteWanted in GMT. Any players, any time! Human tribal role. Please come be both my family AND my new friend!
QuoteLike dark times? The Guild is looking for a special someone. Must be gregarious and RP focused over skills. High playtimes a plus. Social role. More info available on request.
Quote from: tapas on August 21, 2020, 09:39:02 AM
I would make two easy changes.
1. Make sure everything ends up on the history page. That includes weird spires of sand that show up over night and and skirmishes on the salt flats. Seriously. I still don't even know what happened in Luirs. Like come on.
Yes, a thousand times YES! When I came back to the game a couple of years ago after a long absence I had trouble finding any information on the Garrison or what had happened in Luir's. I didn't want to try to find out IC and in doing so reveal my noble house aide as an ignoramus.
Quote from: tapas on August 21, 2020, 09:39:02 AM
2. Make in game rumor posts available out of game. Let people hear rumors from the city even if they're not in the city. That way it'll be easier to connect to player plots.
I hate to be the only naysayer on this but I guess I have to be. :P I do think that IC happenings/rumours/events should stay IC. If you play in Morin's you should feel isolated because you
are isolated. If you play in Luir's you should feel distanced from Allanak because the two settlements are supposedly a long way away in IC terms. You shouldn't know everything that is going on in Allanak unless you travel there regularly or have a network of confidants there who keep you updated.
I guess I'd be okay with the idea of having hiring posts on the website.
Quote from: Blink on August 21, 2020, 06:12:27 PM
Quote from: tapas on August 21, 2020, 09:39:02 AM
2. Make in game rumor posts available out of game. Let people hear rumors from the city even if they're not in the city. That way it'll be easier to connect to player plots.
I hate to be the only naysayer on this but I guess I have to be. :P I do think that IC happenings/rumours/events should stay IC. If you play in Morin's you should feel isolated because you are isolated. If you play in Luir's you should feel distanced from Allanak because the two settlements are supposedly a long way away in IC terms. You shouldn't know everything that is going on in Allanak unless you travel there regularly or have a network of confidants there who keep you updated.
I guess I'd be okay with the idea of having hiring posts on the website.
You aren't alone on this, this is more or less my exact position which is why I only backed up the hiring posts.
Global gossip board posts hamper RP in a lot of obvious ways. As soon as this was brought up I thought of one of my escaped slave characters and how it was neat, even with Allanak being such a huge city, being unable to access the gossip board. It prompted roleplay like asking people for tidings, and helped instill the feeling an escaped Allanaki slave should have of being unable to even get close to Allanak or its happenings. Inversely, I've had other characters paid to spread gossip, and global gossip posts would also kill that vocation.
When someone in this thread mentioned lore earlier and I replied about lore and literacy and kudosing people who shared it, a new player messaged me musing about making a lore master concept. We want to generate RP like that, not kill it.
Quote from: mansa on August 20, 2020, 11:39:04 PM
In my opinion,
A lot has changed, but the story of the world is lacking in the publication of world events, so to the public face it seems like very little has changed.
I would push to have more public knowledge of ongoing events in the game from 6 months ago. If a noble, 6 months ago, did something cool, I'd want it to be shared somewhere, even if they were still alive 6 months later. I mean, other than logging in and reading the IC rumor boards - how else am I to know that there was two public trials, a political assassination, house fale is now top tier, and the eastside elven tribes now run the guild.
I could get behind this, or whatever timeline the staff thought appropriate. I think it would go a good way toward combating the appearance of Nothing Going On. It might also give some idea of the way the meta-game is trending (more political, more outright war, more Big Magick, etc.), albeit with a large delay.
It is all cyclical. When you have especially harsh or violent Templars/ Law Enforcement OR Especially effective public assassins/ murderers it tends to reduce PCs, especially fringe PCs (rinthi, nonhumans) out and about. Have seen this pattern on and off throughout forever. Not currently playing in Nak but I didn't notice a lack of plots or PCs when I last played there at all.
I'm still sticking with my previous assessment. Luirs has become the new Hunters Paradise. They have access to everything they could want, plus the resources of both the north, and the south.
Add into it "="THE STEALTH META UUUUUUWUUUUUUUU" And why come to the city?
I'de like to state, for the record "stealth meta" is kinda a lie. It's always been like this. There have always been OHK assassins in Nak, and Burglars that will clean your whole apartment, and tons of them. In the way to long i've played this game, there has never been a period of 'no stealth meta' in the cities. Sure, miscreants are stupid strong because they are both pickpocket and burglar with Ranger fighting skills...For some reason. But let's be honest. It's still the same folks playing the stealth game they like.
As I wrote in my final report to staff. I believe my last character was the final one I would ever make in ArmageddonMUD.
I played this game on and off since Luirs was turned into ruins by mantis (15-20years??), once upon a time its a game I felt I could recommend to people looking for an engaging story, however there is a reason there are more muls and sorcerers then elves in the game. To be clear, since i am working from home so I have a lot of time to invest in any game. The staff were supportive with my last character and I have nothing but kudos them and for several players I played with. However, in my opinion I finally saw the pettiness of those overt 'plots'. Essentially most people have nothing better to do then to try to kill each other over petty reasons.
Its turning this game into a PvP game. One where I don't see sorcerers and muls as a fun RP experience, but rather just another super assassin waiting to take away the fun I am having with others by killing them or me. Don't get me wrong, I love PvP games, but armageddonmud is not balanced for it. Its karma classes and sponsored roles make the playing field way too unfair. Even the fate of balanced PvP muds is pretty much burn out of population.
The game(not just Allanak) doesn't necessarily need Tuluk. However it does need engaging plots that attract and engage your sponsored roles/high karma roles so they have something better to do then engaging in petty murder plots. Unfortunately at the moment, I feel these powerful class combos or sponsored positions have nothing to do then kill each other. And when they can't easily kill someone they begin killing the people around them who may not have chosen a powerful stealth/combat combo.
Unfortunately, I know the amount of effort it would take to run engaging world plots or have Tuluk become a menace that people need to work with staff to stop is probably more effort/work for staff then they can currently handle. That is just life. Arm was supposed to be an RP game with amazing stories and engaging scenes, but the pettiness of the 'murder plots' that seems to be originating from boredom has driven me away. Mostly because I rather not roll a karma PC combat combo just to add to the problem or just have my time and effort wasted when someone comes to add another notch to their belt by killing my character for no good reason.
You are one of the best players this game has/ had Dresan. My respects. o7
I have played mundanes that have barely ran into another mundane in the entire wilderness. Somehow ran into 3 sorcerors and about a zillion rukkian empowerments. I see your point.
That being said. I have played mundane laborers with crafting subs that have beaten arses before. You'll be back.
Quote from: Dresan on August 22, 2020, 12:35:37 PM
Its turning this game into a PvP game.
(Good stuff in here....)
Unfortunately, I know the amount of effort it would take to run engaging world plots or have Tuluk become a menace that people need to work with staff to stop is probably more effort/work for staff then they can currently handle. That is just life. Arm was supposed to be an RP game with amazing stories and engaging scenes, but the pettiness of the 'murder plots' that seems to be originating from boredom has driven me away.
I couldn't say this quite so eloquently. This is really my crux. Of course PvP is the shit. I love it. But the balance was fraying at the edges awhile back.
Players have been creative in filling in the gaps with some interesting stuff--Kudos for sure. I've been playing more recently.
I still maintain that sometimes you just need that staff echo to put everyone on edge. Even if that's all that comes into the room. (Also for players interested in the storytelling aspects: We can do a lot to bring a scene to life also.)
I think my last six characters were PKed, all of them either by total strangers I had never met or by people I had no idea were going to kill me and still cannot piece together a reason. This really has become a game of "gotcha!" It's a witless PK-fest bereft of story.
Quote from: worldofsand on August 22, 2020, 06:02:05 PM
I think my last six characters were PKed, all of them either by total strangers I had never met or by people I had no idea were going to kill me and still cannot piece together a reason. This really has become a game of "gotcha!" It's a witless PK-fest bereft of story.
I feel like there are reasons, and you aren't aware of them. Staff tend to frown on PK without reports.
I'm sure you feel like there are reasons, without knowing the first thing about any of those cases or who my characters were. I'm sure you do.
Quote from: worldofsand on August 22, 2020, 08:23:39 PM
I'm sure you feel like there are reasons, without knowing the first thing about any of those cases or who my characters were. I'm sure you do.
Just like you didn't know your killers or their reasons.
Sure. I don't. They may all have had elaborate schemes to take me out, all six of them, on six consecutive characters spread out across two RL years. But here you are, as a person with no known involvement with any of them, and you're laying down your life in some bizarrely misguided fight against the very ordinary sentiment that I posted. It makes me wonder if you had anything to say in the first place or if you were merely fishing for karma or playing a sycophant in some other way that warranted no recognition whatsoever. Announce your agenda or be discounted on the spot.
Quote from: worldofsand on August 22, 2020, 09:55:55 PM
Sure. I don't. They may all have had elaborate schemes to take me out, all six of them, on six consecutive characters spread out across two RL years. But here you are, as a person with no known involvement with any of them, and you're laying down your life in some bizarrely misguided fight against the very ordinary sentiment that I posted. It makes me wonder if you had anything to say in the first place or if you were merely fishing for karma or playing a sycophant in some other way that warranted no recognition whatsoever. Announce your agenda or be discounted on the spot.
Ha.
How about you consider the fact that when someone that knows you, wants you dead, they use someone you don't know.
But hey, sure, 6 pk's across 2 years. They sure must all be completely random. You couldn't have had enemies that hated you, but pretended to like you.
Nope, it's everyone's fault, they are picking on you, right?
Quote from: worldofsand on August 22, 2020, 09:55:55 PM
Sure. I don't. They may all have had elaborate schemes to take me out, all six of them, on six consecutive characters spread out across two RL years. But here you are, as a person with no known involvement with any of them, and you're laying down your life in some bizarrely misguided fight against the very ordinary sentiment that I posted. It makes me wonder if you had anything to say in the first place or if you were merely fishing for karma or playing a sycophant in some other way that warranted no recognition whatsoever. Announce your agenda or be discounted on the spot.
Okay. I'll bite.
What is your agenda?
Given that your last six characters did not, in fact, die due to PK. And certainly did not span two years.
Heck, your last two accounts don't even span two years.
Oh no, my thread is devolving. Guys, please. This isn't a thread about what is wrong with the game. Nor is it supposed to be about just grievances.
I want to hear about the golden age of Allanak and not just how to restore it, but instead how to move beyond it. Veterans, what's a good bit of Allanak for us to think about?
For me the good about Nak is it does the social stratification really well. Nobles and Templars are better than you and don't try to hide it. I just feel that it's a double edged sword since being a Noble is such a limiting role and is a real stretch to RP with many character types.
I say this too often but if I had a magic wand I'd remove the noble roles and replace them with a couple more PC templars and more GMH family roles to make sure 'high class' RP still had a place.
This isn't a complaint about any current nobles and I've seen fantastic ones in the past. I just feel that leading a crew of gemmed (ie Oash) could be easily done by a Templar or party dude could easily done by a Kadian or Kuraci.
Quote from: SpyGuy on August 23, 2020, 08:21:48 AM
This isn't a complaint about any current nobles and I've seen fantastic ones in the past. I just feel that leading a crew of gemmed (ie Oash) could be easily done by a Templar or party dude could easily done by a Kadian or Kuraci.
This, especially the gemmed part. A circle with 6 or so gemmed + aides are a lot to handle for one or two nobles who may not even play that much. Split up between three templars the templars would actually have minions they can control, the gemmed could have a lot more things to do between those three templars and maybe the gemmed quarter wouldn't be so empty because everyone spends the majority of the time in the Oash compound. After having played there for a bit, the circle really isn't doing anything for the game.
You could even keep Oash open and just virtualize the circle.
Don't close off oash please. It works fine roleplayed.
Quote from: Aruven on August 23, 2020, 01:10:28 PM
Don't close off oash please. It works fine roleplayed.
It absolutely does not, when it comes to the gemmed.
The majority of the gemmed population ends up working for them, but there is nowhere near enough stuff for them to do to keep six or seven players busy. They are completely dependent on the noble to do anything other than what a generic unclanned PC could be doing. I guess they can socialize and apartment spar. Meanwhile, anyone gemmed that are unhireable by Oash get to play solo in an empty temple and magicker's quarter, but unreasonably popular with templars, since they can really only fuck with you and boss you around if you're not working for Oash.
Quote from: Nao on August 23, 2020, 01:59:08 PM
Quote from: Aruven on August 23, 2020, 01:10:28 PM
Don't close off oash please. It works fine roleplayed.
It absolutely does not, when it comes to the gemmed.
The majority of the gemmed population ends up working for them, but there is nowhere near enough stuff for them to do to keep six or seven players busy. They are completely dependent on the noble to do anything other than what a generic unclanned PC could be doing. I guess they can socialize and apartment spar. Meanwhile, anyone gemmed that are unhireable by Oash get to play solo in an empty temple and magicker's quarter, but unreasonably popular with templars, since they can really only fuck with you and boss you around if you're not working for Oash.
We disagree, and that's alright. Give it another shot under different leadership. It works when the clan leaders (noble and non noble) know how to play it, in my opinion. I feel like the various times I've been through Oash the other players were generally happy and put in a lot of time together.
nothing to see here
Okay, I've returned to the game for three days and the sentiment from players in this thread that Allanak is dead seems false to me. If you aren't finding fun, that's a different problem than the fun doesn't exist.
With that said, the player count does seem diminished from where it should be, given the obvious environmental bonuses that we should getting given the whole COVID situation. My general thoughts go back to let's try and solve that problem, help people find the fun, rather than fixate on what we perceive to be missing.
Out of game job postings seems like a great addition, giving lapsed players immediate concepts and a built in first objective should they get into the game. Something as simple as "Templar seeking aide, preferred playtimes x-y" or "Indie merchant company needs a hunter, all playtimes welcome", could go a long way in helping players find the fun without relying on staff or family role calls to do so. The postings shouldn't be in lieu of in-game recruitment but merely a tool to get the word out and let people build a PC that could potentially find fun faster.
I propose an experiment, open a new section on these forums for job postings with guidelines stickied to the top. Let the forum exist for a few weeks or months, and see if it's a net positive for the game or if it causes more trouble than its worth. Staff can be the arbiter in whether it's a good thing or bad thing. Seems like something that could be easily implemented though, and could only do limited damage if there's unintended consequences.
Even the recent complaints in this thread about lack of things for Gemmed to do are misguided - there's more than Oash that hires them now, but there's been no outward communication in that so how would anyone know?
re: Wizturbo's suggestion:
I wouldn't want this to be created by players. I'd rather see it posted by staff. Something like:
QuoteThere are currently two active noble houses in Allanak needing employees. One employee would be the city-based type, one is a "field aide" type, and there are two other openings as well.
The Tzai-Byn is still filling out at least one of their crews.
The Militia needs some love, mid-to-late-peak time right now.
At least one templar is seeking a personal employee, off-peak between 2AM server time as late as 10AM server time.
The labyrinth currently has things happening.
For names, details, applications to hire or participate, find out IC.
This way people would know that yes - someone is hiring and yes - at least one position is available when I am. And yes, at least one of those positions fits the general concept of my character.
And you can figure out the rest through roleplay.
I feel like adding more for Staff to do sucks. I'd rather see it player created and Staff Vetted. I guess that's still something for Staff to do.
In general I feel a Great Bonus would be updating the chronology page with more frequency. When there are RL years with nothing posted to the Chronology page, it reinforces that the actions of the players have little weight on the progress (or lack of progress) or change in the world.
I also really miss the ease behind Original Submissions. The new website sort of made it much harder to submit things like artwork, logs, and stories. I feel like the last great surge of those we saw was in like 2007 or so. It makes the game feel exciting and the community passionate, and provides great examples of 'Things Happening' as well as examples of varied Role-play. Otherwise we just have to take everyone's word for it. There IS an Original Submission request you can file, but I don't see it advertised anywhere. I feel like it should be on the main page, with a blurb like:
"We have an incredibly passionate community that over the years has submitted original artwork, logs of previous RP and encounters, fictional narrative written in ArmageddonMUD's universe, original songs, and more. If you have something in these categories you would like to submit, click here." It would prompt you to login to your account, and automatically pull up the 'Original Submission' request.
SIMILARLY...It would be cool if players could submit chronology suggestions. There could be guidelines (Don't make it just about your PC, only world shaping events that would be known by large populations of the Known World). It'd be a nice Staff Call similar to the crafting echoes and Byn Accolades on the GDB. Staff ultimately would choose what's accepted and what's not, but even dating further back, it'd be cool to fill out some of the world-spanning events that occurred. Some of the events listed on there don't even seem really that relevant or 'wow' for World History. So yeah. I dunno.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 25, 2020, 01:06:29 PM
Even the recent complaints in this thread about lack of things for Gemmed to do are misguided - there's more than Oash that hires them now, but there's been no outward communication in that so how would anyone know?
You misunderstand the complaint, it's not about gemmed in general having nothing to do. It's solely about Oash, as a clan, and how they end up hiring the majority of gemmed PCs, and just don't have all that much to for them to do (unless all the stars align and they just happen to have a good, highly active leadership PC - the sort that can make everything fun).
Gotcha. What I'm saying is there is now at least one alternative clan that can hire, so more choices available now. Not something I knew until I happened upon it in-game.
Just an observation but:
The stronger that GMH presence is in Allanak, the more plots tend to be moved in the city. Nobles use them to collude against one another, Templars get bribed and moved around because of their impact on local economy, hunters bring them goods, Byn support them, brand new pcs start out there in the hopes of signing on with them, Guild extorts them and works with them...
I've been playing a ton in Allanak, and I really think that the "social" game in Allanak and the oomph behind the city's roleplay comes only when you've got leadership in the GMH who are able to focus on the largest economy (or should be) in the game.
I think (my opinion only) a strong push to have 2 GMH leaders for each of the three pc clans, with one of those focused entirely and only on Allanak, becomes a spark and lightning rod for making all the other clans surge forward.
Luir's and the action going on there, and the worldplot and all the indies, that's great, and I applaud the effort going in there, but I feel pretty confident that the lack of GMH action in Allanak does have a pretty major impact to the nature, strength and intensity of the playerbase there.
Two 'sid.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 25, 2020, 02:34:34 PM
Gotcha. What I'm saying is there is now at least one alternative clan that can hire, so more choices available now. Not something I knew until I happened upon it in-game.
What clan?
Find out IC. It isn't published because it isn't supposed to be well known IC'ly.
There are tons of niches for gicks, if anything it's hard not getting involved in plots and organizations as a gick.
But I do agree with Nao that Oash operations being somewhat mutually exclusive from templarate operations restricts RP a little. Ironically I've seen more meaningful "upward mobility" for gemmed who avoid Oash and opt to work for the Templarate as pseudo-aides. So I agree with Nao that some thought can go into the Oash-gemmed-Templarate configuration.
My main point isn't to talk about gemmed or magickers, but the fact that A LOT HAS CHANGED and no one realizes it. Many of the problems I saw in the game before I took a break a few years ago are solved now, or at least greatly improved, but I had no idea. Reading the GDB doesn't convey this. The secrecy this game has on certain things is doing it a disservice when it comes to winning back players, trying to get a discussion going on what we can comfortably due to improve this without breaking important parts of the find out IC culture we have.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 25, 2020, 07:32:48 PM
My main point isn't to talk about gemmed or magickers, but the fact that A LOT HAS CHANGED and no one realizes it. Many of the problems I saw in the game before I took a break a few years ago are solved now, or at least greatly improved, but I had no idea. Reading the GDB doesn't convey this.
Yes, I too have observed this and chuckle when people who left the game years ago continue to bitterly comment about flaws that have been fixed. I am glad you are now playing again and have up to date information. When you enter a debate, it is important to have up to date information.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 25, 2020, 07:32:48 PM
The secrecy this game has on certain things is doing it a disservice when it comes to winning back players, trying to get a discussion going on what we can comfortably due to improve this without breaking important parts of the find out IC culture we have.
Yes. The rules at hand do put us in a bind here. This is why Lizzie is on the right track about job postings needing to be removed from the players to a degree, and overseen by staff just to make sure posts do not leak too much IC info. Criticism of her idea that it takes too much staff work is also correct, which is why I prototyped an anonymized self-service rollcall tool for another MUD [with barely any players]. Anonymization + minimal moderation can allow us to publicize roles, plots, and fun-to-do-things while still adhering to IC rules.
[And remember, as the rules stand, you can always get a family rolecall / other coordinated rolecall approved and post about it on the GDB if you want]
Nevermind. This is pretty much American politics today. Im just some old veteran that played a different game. Change it up. I hope it works and makes everyone happy.
There's a lot of cool stuff going on in the game right now. It's smaller scale than some of the big magick plots in the past afaik but still interesting. It can, of course, take a PC RL days played (often 10+ in my experience) to really get to experience some of it. That's just the nature of the game and gaining connections/trust/competency. I try to gossip a lot on many characters because sharing that sort of information is fun.
I'm really a strong supporter of sharing more publicly on the website. The current history page is terrible and just makes it look stagnant even when it isn't. I'm even supportive of changing the rule from a RL year to say 6 months of talking about IC things that aren't super sensitive. I hope that we're all mature enough to separate out what's IC gained info from the OOC.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 25, 2020, 07:32:48 PM
My main point isn't to talk about gemmed or magickers, but the fact that A LOT HAS CHANGED and no one realizes it.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 25, 2020, 06:24:56 PM
Find out IC. It isn't published because it isn't supposed to be well known IC'ly.
Funny when I had my circle in Oash they constantly had tasks, they explored the grey forest for a plot, they hunted Rogue mages, they hunted defilers and searched the known for artifacts and went out as a group and did a TON. I'm sorry none of you guys played with someone willing to push and drive those sorts of things. Oash works great but the nobles have to actually care more about doing things than just building projects and inner city politics.
Oash is fine.
Close Borsail.
Thanks,
- Some Old Oashi player. :)
Bring back the Oashi Guard! (and other noble House commoner positions) :D
On board with some sentiments in this thread to put a little more of the onus, as far as criticism, on players to bring life to the world in the way that is most fun for them. However, staff run plots are a blast to play through as well, and always welcome. I returned to playing this game after a long break back in April, and still manage to have a good time in game in Allanak as well as anywhere else.
Quote from: Spider on August 26, 2020, 01:53:05 PM
Bring back the Oashi Guard! (and other noble House commoner positions) :D
On board with some sentiments in this thread to put a little more of the onus, as far as criticism, on players to bring life to the world in the way that is most fun for them. However, staff run plots are a blast to play through as well, and always welcome. I returned to playing this game after a long break back in April, and still manage to have a good time in game in Allanak as well as anywhere else.
I miss the Elites. Warriors pairs with mages to go...I dunno. Guard a nobles poop bucket.
I joke, but they were fun to play. I've apped more then a handful of Oashi over the years, with a goal of starting them back up.
Quote from: Spiceoflife on August 26, 2020, 08:14:47 AM
Funny when I had my circle in Oash they constantly had tasks, they explored the grey forest for a plot, they hunted Rogue mages, they hunted defilers and searched the known for artifacts and went out as a group and did a TON. I'm sorry none of you guys played with someone willing to push and drive those sorts of things. Oash works great but the nobles have to actually care more about doing things than just building projects and inner city politics.
Wow. You just motivated me (I don't play in Oash). Thank you! Gonna see what I can do IC now. =)
Gonna be real with you. Wanted to do something unique in Allanak. The absolute lack of players and the absolute lack of interest killed it entirely for me to the point where I haven't played for months besides maybe fifteen minute log ins.
It's a shame, because I was so excited, and then it was just dead, immediately. Doneso, especially after some shitty IC Allanak-related drama like has been touted in the thread that didn't make anything cool at all, it just made it fucking dumb and frustrating and didn't make me even want to play anymore.
Maybe I'm just tired of Armageddon, I don't know.
Quote from: AdamBlue on August 27, 2020, 06:46:19 AM
Gonna be real with you. Wanted to do something unique in Allanak. The absolute lack of players and the absolute lack of interest killed it entirely for me to the point where I haven't played for months besides maybe fifteen minute log ins.
It's a shame, because I was so excited, and then it was just dead, immediately. Doneso, especially after some shitty IC Allanak-related drama like has been touted in the thread that didn't make anything cool at all, it just made it fucking dumb and frustrating and didn't make me even want to play anymore.
Maybe I'm just tired of Armageddon, I don't know.
Sometimes I wish there was a way to give feedback about RP killing situations IG without having to resort to our only three options now:
- Player and Staff complaints, which is a nuclear option.
- Put these concerns in a character report and hope something happens, which has no guarantee of happening because the point of character reports is mostly to get feedback.
- Vaguebook about it on the GDB [not calling AdamBlue out for doing this because I do it to. It's one of your only options besides the two above and sadly/ironically it may be the BEST option in terms of the likelihood of changing bad roleplay killing behavior].
I am sure players and staff don't want to "kill plots." If I ever did something to "kill a plot" I would want to know and learn from my mistakes, but given the three options above, if I
have killed a plot in a bad way, I haven't heard of it. Sometimes I think we should have a means to give player feedback beyond either a kudos or a complaint, like a constructive feedback sort of tool. This would help a lot of ambiguous situations, possibly stop this phenomenon of "my only option here is to vaguebook about the problem and quit playing," and also solve other issues like helping new/learning roleplayers by allowing more experienced roleplayers to give them feedback without slamming them with a complaint, etc.
Anyway AdamBlue you're one of the best players we have, but I don't know what to constructively say besides the above. But I also relate, my play times have dwindled in the same way and when I try to explain it a lot of killed plots and glass ceilings come to mind.
Allanak has a ton of thiefy fucks that pile in on you and steal EVERYTHING but your clothes the second you step out of a locked area/Clan compound.
You know, way back in the day, Allanak vs Tuluk (and before that, the rebels vs Allanak) was the lick. We didn't have more players (by much), but it was just ... it worked.
I really think that with fewer players (and really, in a way, even if we had more players), we could do away with Allanak, Tuluk, and in a way, this new version of Luir's, and have a really interesting system that would spread people out, create conflict and travel and a reason for the Byn, etc.
Merchants are the lifeblood of any setting, and so shouldn't they be the real powers? What if Kadius returned to Morin's, Kurac retained their Outpost, and Salaar claimed Red Storm?
What if Tek shut down Allanak just like Muk did Tuluk?
What if the new story of Armageddon was the story of three (four if you want to include Nenyuk) merchant houses and their war for survival in a world where there was no Tek or Muk to kibosh the huge threats? There would be military and hunter roles in each clan, crafter roles in each clan, "noblish" roles in each clan. There'd be inter-clan conflict, particularly for higher ranks, and there'd be conflict between clans in the way of both politics and resources, because they would both need (or want) crafted things from each other, and they would need resources that the other clan desired.
And the Byn could profit off all of them, reinforcing the low combative moments for each clan, centered from the fort.
You could even reopen Nunyek and set them as a sort of neutral entity of sorts, serving as value holders (banking) and also intermediators between the clans in this new system.
And then there would be the tribes, and the big baddies, and maybe even select moments when either Muk or Tek's forces made appearances.
I dunno. That's what I'd do.
Sounds dope. 7DV for president.
I would be down with such a thing.
I personally wouldn't close down Allanak, just de-staff it for a time. Transition plot and story support over to the merchant houses for a period of time (lets say 1 year) and then finish up that story thread and start another. Maybe that next story thread is with the merchant houses again, but maybe it goes back to Allanak. Or it goes to the tribes. Etc...change things up, give people a reason to return to explore a new storyline.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 01, 2020, 05:41:14 PM
military and hunter roles in each clan
You have me onboard with this single clause [read the rest, it's also alright].
When I came back two years ago after a 3-4 year break, the removal of house hunters was the single biggest WTF change I saw since the closure of Tuluk. It removed a vector of competition between Houses and just made working in a Merchant house 99% less interesting to myself and other players. Still boggled that policy now is that Houses can only work with indie hunters and players who like to hunt are stuck being indie [unless you are a tribal or the like]. I don't understand why we are pushing people out of roles with rich documentation and history and into unsupported, advancement free and therefore flat indie roles.
Not sure I am for closing Allanak but totally for this one aspect of your idea. It's not just old players like us who lament the loss of house hunters, twice I have seen new players show up and ask "I saw Houses have hunters and guards in the docs. I really want to play that!" And then these newbies are told no,
arbitrarily they cannot play that.
Make it a trade hub. You want something nice you should have to go to Nak to get it. Luirs, storm ect shouldn't have high end items for sale. Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city. Racism, and tribalism are great on paper but the reality is they segregate the player population. I'm not saying we throw away these things but in the major city that's supposed to be the heart of civilization that should be were you get the most mingling of cultures and races. That's how irl cities form.. they are trade hubs. Don't try and run every gemmed and elf you see out of the Gaj if you don't want to be around then go to Reds. Nobles and templars don't have to be absolutely assholes to ever single commoner they met either. Maybe don't run off every pc that sits at table in the same bar you are in? Flip side stop robbing every high born/ merchant you see in public and maybe they won't hold up in their compounds 24/7. Allanak should be the most heavily populated area in the game most of the time. Coming back from a several year break it feels like a ghost town. I really feel the push towards more racial and cultural exclusivity is the source of the problem.
Quote from: Blanc de Ocotillo on September 02, 2020, 10:28:10 AM
Make it a trade hub. You want something nice you should have to go to Nak to get it. Luirs, storm ect shouldn't have high end items for sale. Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city. Racism, and tribalism are great on paper but the reality is they segregate the player population. I'm not saying we throw away these things but in the major city that's supposed to be the heart of civilization that should be were you get the most mingling of cultures and races. That's how irl cities form.. they are trade hubs. Don't try and run every gemmed and elf you see out of the Gaj if you don't want to be around then go to Reds. Nobles and templars don't have to be absolutely assholes to ever single commoner they met either. Maybe don't run off every pc that sits at table in the same bar you are in? Flip side stop robbing every high born/ merchant you see in public and maybe they won't hold up in their compounds 24/7. Allanak should be the most heavily populated area in the game most of the time. Coming back from a several year break it feels like a ghost town. I really feel the push towards more racial and cultural exclusivity is the source of the problem.
Solid insight from someone, if I am not mistaken, who should know the ins and outs of Allanak, and how it's population flows. Allanak should remain dark and gritty, but right now the trade hub is Luirs. And we need to consider how that's an issue for the whole game.
I've always believed Luirs should have always been tribal, setting wise it makes more sense for there to be a place all the tribes hold councel and negotiate wars and such. merchant house's rp should largely be in the city, tribals should have Luirs.
But that's a pipe dream, I know. to big of a change. Even to work for IC.
Quote from: Blanc de Ocotillo on September 02, 2020, 10:28:10 AM
Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city.
All very well, but some of the tribes contain magickers. From what I've seen, Allanak is fairly friendly towards tribals, but either people won't visit because they are magickers, won't visit because they are 'standing with' their magicker fam, or they visit with zero problems in trading.
I don't know about all tribes, but some also have reasons for not wanting to trade in Allanak, and even when invited, won't accept (for reasons other than above).
I would like to see Luir's be more of a tribal mecca, and keep the GMH to the cities (in this case, Nak and I guess Morin's for Kadius), but I have yet to have a character actually live -in- Luir's, so I'm probably not the best person to weigh in here on that! ;D
7DV, holy shit sign me up! Only change
Morins: Kadius
Luirs: Salaar
RedStorm: Kurac because of spice
Quote from: Kyviantre on September 02, 2020, 02:44:38 PM
Quote from: Blanc de Ocotillo on September 02, 2020, 10:28:10 AM
Make it a cultural and trade center with a tribal market where tribals are actually welcome into the city.
All very well, but some of the tribes contain magickers. From what I've seen, Allanak is fairly friendly towards tribals, but either people won't visit because they are magickers, won't visit because they are 'standing with' their magicker fam, or they visit with zero problems in trading.
I don't know about all tribes, but some also have reasons for not wanting to trade in Allanak, and even when invited, won't accept (for reasons other than above).
I would like to see Luir's be more of a tribal mecca, and keep the GMH to the cities (in this case, Nak and I guess Morin's for Kadius), but I have yet to have a character actually live -in- Luir's, so I'm probably not the best person to weigh in here on that! ;D
I've had several characters from Luir's, but not Kuraci family. Most of the time when I play someone *from* Luir's Outpost, there's a lot of pressure to join Kurac, the Garrison, or one of the other GMHs. To me it shouldn't be any different from someone *from* Allanak, who doesn't want to join the Militia or any of the NobleHouses or be a templar's aide. There needs to be people who want to be independent - not independently wealthy, not open their own house, not become a famous merchant - just some random generic person who is from a place, lives in the place, is happy being from the place, and doesn't feel like he has to be a member of a club to do so.
Problem with nak far as mages is. For a very long time, nak Templars and such followed the docs about gemming, I gem was needed to live and work in the city. And at that time gemmers could get jobs. Some changes were made and gemmers could no longer get jobs, cept for one house. So, people basically stopped making them...soon after Templars started this rather odd...and not backed by docs habit of deciding that all mages, anywhere in the world have to have a gem. To the point currently that they call people traitors for dealing with ungemmed anywhere in the world and not bringing them to be gemmed...even if it is a (random tribe) who has never entered the city.
So, basically, yet another thing to keep players away from allanak.
Quote from: X-D on September 02, 2020, 04:57:39 PM
Problem with nak far as mages is. For a very long time, nak Templars and such followed the docs about gemming, I gem was needed to live and work in the city. And at that time gemmers could get jobs. Some changes were made and gemmers could no longer get jobs, cept for one house. So, people basically stopped making them...soon after Templars started this rather odd...and not backed by docs habit of deciding that all mages, anywhere in the world have to have a gem. To the point currently that they call people traitors for dealing with ungemmed anywhere in the world and not bringing them to be gemmed...even if it is a (random tribe) who has never entered the city.
So, basically, yet another thing to keep players away from allanak.
Similar thing happened in Tuluk though. I played a Luir's based character who KNEW - meaning - met - a whiran they were hunting down. My character was killed just because she knew that whiran.
"Luir's shouldn't have high end items for sale" yet it seems one to two of the three GMH heads live there and prefer to operate their business from there at any given time. Not hard to figure out why.
IMHO, one of Allanak's problems is that we added housing to Luirs.
I dunno. I don't think adding rentals ran people out of Allanak. I think adding those rentals just made the place people wanted to play over Allanak more viable.
Quote from: Brokkr on September 03, 2020, 11:39:37 AM
IMHO, one of Allanak's problems is that we added housing to Luirs.
It's an interesting point. With more hides-holes that aren't in Allanak, people are given more opportunity to run operations outside of Allanak's influence. I'd go one step further than this and say having Warehouses in Luirs as opposed to only in Allanak drives Indies to operate more frequently and easily out of Luirs.
After all, you don't have Templars breathing down your neck for bribes and 'fines', just the GMH, which tend to be less authoritarian by nature. There aren't as many elves. There aren't as many thieves, though still some.
It's part of why I'm sort of against housing going into Morin's Village -- Part of the appeal of Morin's to me is the communal living for Tuluki, and the lack of private storage makes it much more difficult/harsh for those operating out of there. Housing definitely adds a layer of comfortability to an area and with that comfort perhaps comes a lack of willingness to take risk/step outside the comfort box.
While I think housing is related...I don't think it's necessarily the silver bullet for the perceived issues with Allanak. It would add a layer of frustration for many Indie PCs who don't have anywhere to put their doodads. I'm not sure it would force them to use Allanak as a base of operations, and I'm not sure Allanak should be the only base of operations in the game.
As to the GMH mostly sticking around Luirs -- I found that wasn't exactly the case when playing a GMH family member myself. Most of the GMH would travel to Luirs for a stint, but all of their high-end clients are in Allanak. So unless you want to sell alright bone swords for your career, the big money is in Allanak. On the converse, GMH have more power within Luirs, particularly Council members. So it's also not surprising they would want to spend time in Luirs for that reason alone. They are afforded more respect/capability in Luirs that they definitely don't have in Allanak.
I found this quote from Nyr from 2014 illuminating:
QuoteTuluk needs more people to play in it. Both city-states need players to make them really pop. We can't have conflicts between the two city-states without players on both sides, just like you can't play cops and robbers by only playing the brave police officer or the wily villain. Even if you like playing one side more than the other, well, the other side has changed quite a bit, and you'll be a better roleplayer and contribute more to the game by fleshing that side out. Not gritty enough? It has gritty elements. Confused? Ask for help. Branch out. Do something different. This larger conflict stuff is something we'd like to facilitate, and we are asking for your help. Help us help you murder, corrupt, and betray. Thanks.
I found that analogy to be pretty spot on, and part of the 'micro' of Allanak that I've seen (IMHO). When you have only brave police officers, and your modus is 'apprehend all elves', while the wily villain elves are 'steal all things', it leads to a very tight circle of plot fomentation, and plots that tend to be repetitive and droll. I do think people are trying their hardest to break out of the mold and the cycle, but it's difficult.
I do think there are things going on in the game that are attempting to break this cycle/mold, and I am happy to see them in play. I have my fingers crossed.
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on September 03, 2020, 12:59:08 PM
I found this quote from Nyr from 2014 illuminating:
QuoteTuluk needs more people to play in it. Both city-states need players to make them really pop. We can't have conflicts between the two city-states without players on both sides, just like you can't play cops and robbers by only playing the brave police officer or the wily villain. Even if you like playing one side more than the other, well, the other side has changed quite a bit, and you'll be a better roleplayer and contribute more to the game by fleshing that side out. Not gritty enough? It has gritty elements. Confused? Ask for help. Branch out. Do something different. This larger conflict stuff is something we'd like to facilitate, and we are asking for your help. Help us help you murder, corrupt, and betray. Thanks.
I found that analogy to be pretty spot on, and part of the 'micro' of Allanak that I've seen (IMHO). When you have only brave police officers, and your modus is 'apprehend all elves', while the wily villain elves are 'steal all things', it leads to a very tight circle of plot fomentation, and plots that tend to be repetitive and droll. I do think people are trying their hardest to break out of the mold and the cycle, but it's difficult.
I do think there are things going on in the game that are attempting to break this cycle/mold, and I am happy to see them in play. I have my fingers crossed.
Great post. I do hope staff identify and support these plots; a much preferred solution to blowing up Allanak entirely [op], or implying that the addition of content players like [Luir's apartments] is the problem because the
last conclusion I want anyone to reach is that content removal is, somehow, the answer here. Several players, feels like around 20 at this point, are very concerned about content removal as a solution.
Creating plots, content and conflict is much preferred; if these plots start with players and are worthwhile staff can support them.
Quote from: Pew Pew on September 02, 2020, 03:44:32 PM
Morins: Kadius
Luirs: Salaar
RedStorm: Kurac because of spice
Yeah, true, but another large portion of Kurac's power is related to tribals, many of which live nearer Luir's than Red Storm.
However, I was thinking about this further, and I'd probably not have Kadius in Morin's. I'd probably create a new settlement for them in the Northlands. If I did have Kadius in Morin's, I'd probably put Salaar in Yaroch.
I'd leave dedicated avenues for both southern and northern players in both Morin's (Tuluk) and Yaroch (Allanak). I'd for sure have one Templar role for each of those locations, and a limited number of soldiers (like 5). I might even have one noble-and-aide role open for each location. I'd offer minimal housing, and a smattering of NPC traders - more than Red Storm. For luxuries, the GMHs would be needed.
So you'd have a number of locations spread across the Known that were all part of the story, and Luir's would probably end up being the new Hub, positioned as it is in the middle.
Quote from: Brokkr on September 03, 2020, 11:39:37 AM
IMHO, one of Allanak's problems is that we added housing to Luirs.
I'd like to chime in that that may very well be a problem for Allanak as it makes a Luir's based character more viable. It's definitely not a problem for the game as some people like playing in Luir's and there needs to be alternatives to Allanak for people to switch around.
Allanak needs something to draw people in. And maybe a few less factors pushing people away from it. Otherwise people will just go to locations where they can have more fun.
The IC situation in Luirs should be reason enough to make it a nice place to visit but not live in. With all the GMHs within its walls the place must be bursting at the seems in terms of capacity, with very little real estate to live in. Furthermore, nearly all resources to sustain that massively dense population would need to be imported and thus expensive. I don't see the problem with housing there, it should just be insanely expensive and very cramped. Food and water should also be double or triple the cost of Allanak, even if non-food stuffs is priced normally due to the GMH operations there.
I think the normal model given those economic conditions would be to live somewhere else but travel to Luirs to sell things at a profit given the increased demand for raw materials there, but not stay too long.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 04, 2020, 10:17:56 AM
The IC situation in Luirs should be reason enough to make it a nice place to visit but not live in. With all the GMHs within its walls the place must be bursting at the seems in terms of capacity, with very little real estate to live in. Furthermore, nearly all resources to sustain that massively dense population would need to be imported and thus expensive. I don't see the problem with housing there, it should just be insanely expensive and very cramped. Food and water should also be double or triple the cost of Allanak, even if non-food stuffs is priced normally due to the GMH operations there.
I think the normal model given those economic conditions would be to live somewhere else but travel to Luirs to sell things at a profit given the increased demand for raw materials there, but not stay too long.
I can see this for water pricing, food pricing being double in the outpost most food passes through makes no sense. Plus, Allanak is supposed to be starving, and always was supposed to.
TBH I just don't want to see us hack chop and shrink the rest of the playable world to try and make Allanak more appealing. That won't work. We need to fix whatever isn't working in the city, not make the rest of the game "suck more" to drive traffic there. Forget the rest of the world, if Nak was awesome sauce fun for all, people would be living there even if Luirs had free water every third day.
Agreed.
Templars are supposed to be oppressive. That is their job. But unfortunately for PC population, if you overoppress, they'll move out of templar reach. Technically they'll move to a place that should have less opportunities, less comfort, less protection, less profit, but that is clearly not the case. In fact, the opposite is often true.
Only thing that allanak has is the "world changing plot power". But due to the extended time required for that to have a visible effect, it is often ... Not enough.
I just want everyone to play with me. :3
Quote from: Kialae on September 05, 2020, 08:42:35 AM
I just want everyone to play with me. :3
Didn't you stop playing last year?
Yeah about that...
I realised I didn't want to stop playing. I just wanted to stop participating in the meta. And I know that's funny given I'm on the GDB but well, you haven't seen me posting outside clan boards until now and I'm unlikely to continue. :)
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 01, 2020, 05:41:14 PM
You know, way back in the day, Allanak vs Tuluk (and before that, the rebels vs Allanak) was the lick. We didn't have more players (by much), but it was just ... it worked.
I really think that with fewer players (and really, in a way, even if we had more players), we could do away with Allanak, Tuluk, and in a way, this new version of Luir's, and have a really interesting system that would spread people out, create conflict and travel and a reason for the Byn, etc.
Merchants are the lifeblood of any setting, and so shouldn't they be the real powers? What if Kadius returned to Morin's, Kurac retained their Outpost, and Salaar claimed Red Storm?
What if Tek shut down Allanak just like Muk did Tuluk?
What if the new story of Armageddon was the story of three (four if you want to include Nenyuk) merchant houses and their war for survival in a world where there was no Tek or Muk to kibosh the huge threats? There would be military and hunter roles in each clan, crafter roles in each clan, "noblish" roles in each clan. There'd be inter-clan conflict, particularly for higher ranks, and there'd be conflict between clans in the way of both politics and resources, because they would both need (or want) crafted things from each other, and they would need resources that the other clan desired.
And the Byn could profit off all of them, reinforcing the low combative moments for each clan, centered from the fort.
You could even reopen Nunyek and set them as a sort of neutral entity of sorts, serving as value holders (banking) and also intermediators between the clans in this new system.
And then there would be the tribes, and the big baddies, and maybe even select moments when either Muk or Tek's forces made appearances.
I dunno. That's what I'd do.
This is how I've seen the way forward for the game.
Let Tek and Muk kill each other in a face off.
A few small settlements spring up that players actually have stake and responsibility to defend/build. The conflict that does exist with 'nak right now is kind of boring because the gameworld truth is that Tek could end it at any time.
Maybe whoever gets this new Templar rolecall can fix Allanak! A lot of the ideas here are one a Templar can act on.
Also hi and <3s for Kialae.
Quote from: Dar on September 04, 2020, 09:35:58 PM
But unfortunately for PC population, if you [templars] overoppress, they'll move out of templar reach.
I can think of one recent example of a templar that made me not want to play in Allanak.
Apartments in Luir's are as bad for Allanak as apartments in Red Storm are or as bad as apartments in Morin's would be. Apartments are as bad for the game as any other private save room. We need more "public" save rooms like in the Rinth :D (And there are a lot of save rooms in unexpected spots!)
Quote from: Lotion on September 05, 2020, 12:41:23 PM
Quote from: Dar on September 04, 2020, 09:35:58 PM
But unfortunately for PC population, if you [templars] overoppress, they'll move out of templar reach.
I can think of one recent example of a templar that made me not want to play in Allanak.
Apartments in Luir's are as bad for Allanak as apartments in Red Storm are or as bad as apartments in Morin's would be. Apartments are as bad for the game as any other private save room. We need more "public" save rooms like in the Rinth :D (And there are a lot of save rooms in unexpected spots!)
The 'rinth could absolutely benefit from having public save rooms, and I would like to add that public save rooms with item persistence rock. There are a few rooms like this in the Northlands which are fantastic for roleplay for various reasons, such as allowing tribals to leave totems and the like. In most cases you don't need to worry about wealth accumulating when it is public, but it is a nice way to hold on to and communicate with trinkets.
Hmm, if that's the case, how would the corpse pile do as a save room? I mean, people loot the stuff from there anyway, but maybe after someone dies or on an anniversary of a death, it would be cool to leave gifts. That would be cool.
Adding on another post:
I'm trying to think of ways to make Allanak feel alive. Feel like a real city. I think something that would help is lanterns on the streets at night, or soldiers holding torches..or something. Being able to move about the main streets (I mean Caravan road mostly) would be cool. Also around the commoner's district since people live there and there should be campfires and what not happening in tents.
Other ideas for Allanak:
More influence in fashion and the changing of the fashion seasons. Repercussions from others if those fashions aren't followed. Like, "Ew, you're still wearing green? That's so Ascending Sun."Yeah, most of that Is RPing shit, but that brings me to a another point.
We need to stop rushing plots, scenes, and rping. I do it, others do it. I get it, it's dawn and we have sitting in the sand between mining to do. It reminds me of why I was so disappointed in students in Art School. They'd rush their homework project and make it look like shit to get to the next 'cooler' project. Only for that one to be rushed and look like shit too. There is no waiting for the good to happen, the miraculous. It happens between ourselves and our characters. We need to realize the time is now. The interactions we have with one another is now. I bet you don't know what your bff's (ig) favorite color is. What their father's name was. What their favorite game as a child was. The more we develop bonds and connections between our characters, the more organic stories will be. There is no penalties in holding back information. If someone asks you something, lie. If someone saw you unsuccessfully sneak and they call you out on it? Fuck the code. Say "I'm breaking in the leather of these new boots, what are you talking about?" We are relying too much on code to do the talking.
Did you know, most skills you can lie about having? You don't need any coded skills to sing, dance, play the drums, play cards, tell stories, decorate, draw (everyone gets draw), become interested in the arts, in fashion, in color. In landscapes. Our characters have an opportunity to be fleshed out and experience a world where we should cut ourselves out of. Yeah, the strip of meat at the bar is easier to just buy and eat than going to a vender. But, doesn't your character get sick of eating the same thing? I think we're letting ourselves down and we can do better. Myself included.
I've realized Allanak is not the problem. The city is what it is. It's us. We've done this. We're too busy trying to be clever and one-up each others jokes to realize our characters are not real characters. They're pull-string dolls with a few quips that we play with. I might make a new post addressing this, trying to instill a new era of positivity and strong writing. I've been lazy and sick for a long time and I'm ending it here. I joined Arm because for years all I wanted was a place where people take the world seriously and are willing to commit to characters. And currently, that's not what I'm getting and that's why I've been so angry about the game. And I feel suffocated. But, I am an escapist and I need this game. I am weak-willed and I will keep coming back. I love reading other people's writing, I love reacting and needing to take a breath in before responding. But, those interactions are few-and-between lately and that's not what I first came to love.
Quote from: Gentleboy on September 06, 2020, 11:10:38 AM
Hmm, if that's the case, how would the corpse pile do as a save room? I mean, people loot the stuff from there anyway, but maybe after someone dies or on an anniversary of a death, it would be cool to leave gifts. That would be cool.
Maybe. Not needed when city forage exists to supply that roleplay.
I want to get back to something interesting implied in Lotion's post: that adding content to the 'rinth helps solve the Allanak issue in part. Currently most people have said, "If you dislike Allanak you can just avoid it," but that is not the only option! If you dislike Allanak you can antagonize it from within in the 'Rinth, or just play in the 'Rinth to enjoy a different role. But people aren't doing this so often, why? It's an under-worked on part of the world, the entire east side of the 'Rinth doesn't even have any tribes city elves can app into, etc. But if we showed just the tiniest mote of attention to the 'Rinth people might actually play there, have a good alternative to 'Nak, and by playing in the 'rinth create more plots and action for 'Nak.
And no, a more powerful 'rinth wouldn't necessarily increase the theft you all dread. A well run Guild or gang will have a protection racket so as to profit off crime without having to necessarily commit it. If you don't want stuff stolen, pay for protection. If you steal from people who have protection, you might get whacked and have all your pickings confiscated.
A more playable 'Rinth makes Allanak more playable. It's a win-win idea, so I love it Lotion. An idea that revitalizes Allanak, even if you hate Allanak! It also gets to that excellent cops and robbers post by Nyr someone cited here, in a quite literal way. This proposal is contiguous with the line of logic staff have laid out themselves.
I'm all for giving more power to the Rinth, but, the relationship with Allanak is sorta symbiotic. They both need each other. If one is not strong, the other isn't going to be able to rise to quality conflicts either.
Quote from: Gentleboy on September 06, 2020, 11:36:18 AM
I'm all for giving more power to the Rinth, but, the relationship with Allanak is sorta symbiotic. They both need each other. If one is not strong, the other isn't going to be able to rise to quality conflicts either.
Great, you agree with my premise that the two are symbiotic: look at the roles and features showered upon Allanak and now look at how the 'Rinth has a comparative lack, a complete lack, of new roles and new features.
If you indeed see that they are symbiotic, the current unfair imbalance in this symbiosis is clearly one of the things making Allanak sick. Refer to Nyr's post. Fix the Labyrinth.
Well, to be honest. I don't think the Rinth deserves anything right now. It's been a twinking playground for shallow characters who just want to practice coded uses. We see the same character recycled for years. I know that's a generalization and maybe not all agree with me, but that's what I feel and this post is strictly pathos, I think. Sorry for the lack of credibility.
The Rinth doesn't need to be added to. It needs to be re-worked.
I'm going to be radical.
Until we raise our RP quality and give each other the respect and story we all deserve, I don't think staff should put time into anything big.
Quote from: Gentleboy on September 06, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Well, to be honest. I don't think the Rinth deserves anything right now. It's been a twinking playground for shallow characters who just want to practice coded uses. We see the same character recycled for years. I know that's a generalization and maybe not all agree with me, but that's what I feel and this post is strictly pathos, I think. Sorry for the lack of credibility.
The Rinth doesn't need to be added to. It needs to be re-worked.
I'm going to be radical.
Until we raise our RP quality and give each other the respect and story we all deserve, I don't think staff should put time into anything big.
We have great 'Rinth players who I have kudosed. One of my recent kudoses are for a 'Rinther I played. The 'Rinth is a vital organ to this game, not a vestigial appendage attached to 'Nak and I am pretty sure all of the people who have advocated for 'Rinth features lately are great roleplayers.
Some of these roleplayers find Naki politics stale and are avoiding 'Nak, but if there were more options besides the ones being given southside you might have more players within the walls.
Agree to disagree but don't dis good roleplayers buddy.
Some of the best roleplaying I've ever seen is in the Rinth, yes.
But for concepts and fully fleshed out characters? No. It's the same disgruntled, ayyye fuck nak, we do it raw, style of person.
What plots have people in the Rinth pushed? Have they pushed to improve it themselves? I know we have the Gein Ze market (I'm so sorry for the spelling), and hey, that was something cool. Even the process of making it was cool! So it's possible. People in the Rinth have a strong sense of self and doing it themselves. I think that trend should continue.
The 'rinth is completely depopulated, shockingly moreso than 'nak. People can't be the change when the 'rinth spice economy is broken [something you also noticed and I proposed solutions for].
If half of a person's organs are failing, that person is probably dying. Nak is dying because meaningful roleplaying opportunities do not exist for a lot of players with certain play styles. Not everyone wants to knit doilies in the Atrium. More doilies aren't the answer to getting more players involved.
A key principal in my life is it is fine to identify problems but it is more beneficial to everyone involved if you also try to come up with solutions. I think Lotion's ideas on the rinth were spot on.
Quote from: Gentleboy on September 06, 2020, 12:03:33 PM
Some of the best roleplaying I've ever seen is in the Rinth, yes.
But for concepts and fully fleshed out characters? No. It's the same disgruntled, ayyye fuck nak, we do it raw, style of person.
What plots have people in the Rinth pushed? Have they pushed to improve it themselves? I know we have the Gein Ze market (I'm so sorry for the spelling), and hey, that was something cool. Even the process of making it was cool! So it's possible. People in the Rinth have a strong sense of self and doing it themselves. I think that trend should continue.
To be fair...playing the generic is part of Armageddon. Not every character is special. It's what nauta (I'm guessing they're not still around?) got well known for, was playing the run-of-the-mill person who 'stuck out' for being interesting. If you're playing in the 'rinth, you're going to run into those mentalities, because those are the mentalities that the 'rinth is built on. I can say the same thing for every single 'trope' in the game.
Some 'rinth characters, it stops there. Some have a level of depth that has the master hide skill and you need the character-scan skill to find it. They're guarded people, as a whole, particularly if you interact with them from 'the other side'. 'rinthers tend to know each other better.
The 'rinth, currently, is one of the most player-dictated parts of the game. You get a few people who you don't mesh with, and they stick around longer than a couple weeks, and they can make the entire zone suck for you. You get a couple who you really like and enjoy, and that place becomes the bee's knees. This is, in reality, something that I think you should keep as intact as possible, but that doesn't mean you can't modify the shit out of the 'rinth with features and support. Honestly...support is all it really needs. It should have a staffer or two that are literally separate from the Allanak staffing team. And they should be animating, building, and keeping that place alive.
Any place where someone is allowed to walk up and knife someone...deserves to have the world around them react to it in a way that makes those alleys feel more like what they are. Most people are fine. Some people treat it like happy hunting grounds or 'Westside Story' or 'Eastside Blues'. Things are really...-really- meshed together there as far as relationships. It's fragile. It's complicated. It's dynamic. And good support is really the only way for that to truly have the full breath-of-life.
Edited to add:
Just for an example of 'rinthi relationships, as far as my exposure over time and what various people and staff have put together as the patchwork in my head.
The Folley has a troublemaker member. He was seen eastside cutting an elf to ribbons. No other elves got involved. But you, a more senior member of the Folley, got contacted to go and sort this out. So you go to a neutral meeting ground...not westside, not eastside. You've gotta go, because while the west doesn't fear the east, the east has all of the capability of wrecking your protection rackets and overall making you and your crew lose money. So you grab your mul enforcer buddy, and head there.
You end up meeting with three elves. You don't know them that well...but they seem to be members of different elven 'houses'. Called tribes, but they are the tribes that carry weight there. One of them seems to be acting like a front man. He's doing the talking.
Elven side: Front man needs to be strong, but he can't be too aggressive. These two elves with him are backup, but they're not from his tribe. He doesn't know their -real- motivation for being here...they could be solid with him on this front. They could be working against him. One of the backup elves is already in the head of the westside front man, inviting to plots to eliminate this front man. The front man doesn't know that. But he's suspecting it already, because that's how the elves work...they aren't all unified over there unless shit really hits the fan and something is threatening -all- of them. So front man elf is trying to fix the troublemaking westsider without making himself vulnerable to the other elves.
Westside perspective: This front-man elf is simultaneously threatening and diplomatic. He wants the problem solved. You have a mul with you, and they're confident enough that they keep making sidelong jabs at him. That's not what you'd expect. Your mul is carefree and confident, but at the same time you can see the wariness as he watches up and down the alley where you've met. You've got the quiet elf in your head talking about how the front elf is a piece of shit who invites this kind of work from your troublemaker. You should work with this quiet elf to eliminate the front elf. That would be ideal, but you don't know...these guys aren't the head of their tribes, they're just the ones who came to meet you. Elves are always poking, prodding, setting up situations just to see how you react...do you tell him to piss off, hoping that the quiet elf tells the front-man elf that you won't cause trouble for him and can be worked with? Or is the quiet elf giving you an opportunity to change things and give the westside a small leg up? Either way...fuck this troublemaker in your crew for putting you in this situation.
Everything is high stakes. Everything is on a knife's edge. Players can totally set up the above scenario...but it's entirely subject to player impulses and this is why it's so drastically affected by player actions. Elimination of these elves creates an eastside vacuum instead of the giant shitstorm that it should. Killing this guilder doesn't create much of a vacuum, because westside traditionally recruits better and has more support, but it does reinforce this whole 'hunt elves with no consequence' mentality and eliminate further relationship-between-'rinthers roleplay.
And this is why dedicated 'rinth support is necessary. Not to mold things to act in a certain way...but to reinforce and animate the tenuous relationships and consequences of -every- political action up in those alleys. That place is amazing and hardcore and if you're not paranoid there, you don't know the place, but if you're too paranoid or aggressive, there's no roleplay. The latter is what people tend to drift to.
The only problem I've had in Allanak is not enough people. I'll see 40 people on and nobody in the streets, market or any of the taverns. I don't usually have a hard time finding someone to interact with though, and there's decent bards every few days to irl week. I see far more people in Luirs but I end up interacting with the same amount of people as any other settlement so I don't see an issue really.
I'm wondering if some form of city-based 'Where' command would help?
If you are in the confines of Allanak (Luirs, Storm, Morins, maybe Cenyr), then you'd see a relevant listing.
Allanak would show the Gaj, Red's, Arboretum main rooms. Storm would show the Eye. Luir's, the End. Morin's the Gibbet and the Firepit (since more people sit there than the bar). Cenyr's bar too.
Only see places you're in the same locale at. So if you're in the wastes, nada for you. If you're in Luir's, no deets on Storm or Nak, etc.
Something like
Quotewhere
Currently in Allanak there are:
4 people in the Gladiator and Gaj Tavern
1 person in Red's Retreat
3 people in the Arboretum
That way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.
Don't make it specific on who is where, don't let it show anyone who has any form of hide/invis toggled on, don't make it game-wide. But it might help winkle people out if they feel they are missing things? Or encourage people to sit in these places knowing that someone will know they are there and might come introduce themselves?
Quote from: Kyviantre on September 07, 2020, 01:26:55 AM
I'm wondering if some form of city-based 'Where' command would help?
If you are in the confines of Allanak (Luirs, Storm, Morins, maybe Cenyr), then you'd see a relevant listing.
Allanak would show the Gaj, Red's, Arboretum main rooms. Storm would show the Eye. Luir's, the End. Morin's the Gibbet and the Firepit (since more people sit there than the bar). Cenyr's bar too.
Only see places you're in the same locale at. So if you're in the wastes, nada for you. If you're in Luir's, no deets on Storm or Nak, etc.
Something like
Quotewhere
Currently in Allanak there are:
4 people in the Gladiator and Gaj Tavern
1 person in Red's Retreat
3 people in the Arboretum
That way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.
Don't make it specific on who is where, don't let it show anyone who has any form of hide/invis toggled on, don't make it game-wide. But it might help winkle people out if they feel they are missing things? Or encourage people to sit in these places knowing that someone will know they are there and might come introduce themselves?
I honestly feel no matter how vague this gets, it's a bit uncomfortably psychic for my tastes just happening to know there's people in roughly X location and be drawn to congregate there for basically purely OOC reasons.
And yes yes, everyone has access to The Way. But there's really no IC reason it should work considering the virtual population exists and would massively drown out PC presence.
For playability reasons, having more means of finding other PC's who want to be found seems like a good thing.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 07, 2020, 06:13:24 AM
For playability reasons, having more means of finding other PC's who want to be found seems like a good thing.
I normally hate OOC stuff like this, but well said that it's a playability boon. Could help our off peak players a lot. I would just request the OOC means of toggling it off, maybe my PC is just having a quick drink and listening in on gossip, or buying a keg and rushing out. Maybe I just don't want to flag my presence OOCly. A long as you can opt out it can work. It cannot be mandatory as that will encourage metagaming.
Take it from me as someone who had a PC backstabbed in the Gaj.
Quote from: triste on September 07, 2020, 07:25:02 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on September 07, 2020, 06:13:24 AM
For playability reasons, having more means of finding other PC's who want to be found seems like a good thing.
I normally hate OOC stuff like this, but well said that it's a playability boon. Could help our off peak players a lot. I would just request the OOC means of toggling it off, maybe my PC is just having a quick drink and listening in on gossip, or buying a keg and rushing out. Maybe I just don't want to flag my presence OOCly. A long as you can opt out it can work. It cannot be mandatory as that will encourage metagaming. Take it from me as someone who had a PC backstabbed in the Gaj.
I like the opt out choice!
Could have it on a toggle, plus a 5-minute timer might be good (to help cut down on misfires from people 'passing through', so it only registers if you've sat there for 5 minutes). But yes, I am thinking like an off-peak player because I am one.
The Way is wonderful, but only works if you know people. If you just want to RP and meet new people, it doesn't. ICly, if you wanted to make a new friend/hunting buddy/bump into someone from X clan...you'd likely head to a local watering spot and start chatting it up. But OOCly, those people are vNPCs, and I'm here for the RP with folks that RP back, aka PCs.
Sure, it isn't 'great' if, when you see 12 people all in the Gaj, you magickally know to head there for where it is all happening. But from a playability side of things...if I'm sitting in my compound, debating whether to craft some more because Who (which, to be fair...similar idea!) says only 7 people are online, or dig myself out and head to check what could be three empty hotspots because everyone is either in their compounds debating the same thing, or kicking it up in Morin's.
I have played elsewhere, where if you set a ldesc, you could toggle yourself visible on the where command, and it'd show exactly where you were (and that was on a smaller grid than Arm!), which I really don't think is a good thing for this setting (at all!). But some way of finding other people to play with, so you're not playing against the non-responsive environment, or going "Nah, I'll stay in my compound because I can't be bothered to spend 30 minutes running around the city looking for one of the 6 other people logged in atm"...would be good imho :)
Thought experiment for people that think a 'where' command is unrealistic: Tomorrow, I make a character, we'll call him Tavernsitter Amos. Tavernsitter Amos' only goal in life is to look through all the taverns in Allanak and keep track of who is there. People can Way Tavernsitter Amos and ask, and he'll tell them, same as anyone would. "Oh, it's just the regulars in here today." or "There's some big get together at the bar, lots of people drinking."
You might accuse me of having a weird sense of fun, but I think it's unlikely you'd accuse me of being OOC. There are ways to flavor it to make it not so jarring as 'there are 3 pc's at the gaj go there', I feel.
That being said, I don't know if that'd necessarily be a good thing for the game. I think most of the time you're just going to see there's nobody at the Gaj.. so you don't go to the Gaj, so there's still nobody at the Gaj. Taverns have this kind of metagame of someone having to be the first one to wait around for interaction already.
EDIT: Maybe we should just find some person and start paying them to tell you how many people are at the Gaj, tbh. Find some poor grebber and designate him as Tavernsitter Amos.
More than a decade ago I played a waiter at the Trader's Inn (the high class Allanaki bar before it was destroyed and turned into the Dome) and I often served exactly that function. Notify merchants when a noble was around having a drink, tell others nobles the merchant they wanted to see was in, always keep track of who was looking for aide work and who wanted an aide, etc. My waiter got tips, and the players connected with each other in a very IC way.
It's been brought up before. Keep in mind that 'playability' is one of those terms that people bring up often in all games across all genres. You could apply it to extreme levels of Armageddon without even getting creative. But that doesn't make it an ideal thing to add. At all.
It's just the WHO C argument all over again. I think it's a pretty terrible idea.
I think we just have to accept that Armageddon has moved past the desire for characters that sit in taverns. It almost feels like if you removed them, most people wouldn't even notice. People just have better things to do than sit in taverns. Most of the things that people enjoy about the game don't happen in taverns, a vast majority of the time.
Playability vs realism is already in the game and for good reason. Few players want to wait multiple RL days to recover from injuries, or have permanent injuries, eat and drink constantly, coded pregnancy or prison sentences that last IC years. And I for one don't want to wander the game for an hour trying to find another player who may be doing the same thing so I can do more than solo rp.
Not a super strong feature to be honest, so I dont think it's worth pushing for, I just wanted to challenge the philosophical argument that playability isn't a good reason to implement something...it absolutely is.
Quote from: Alesan on September 07, 2020, 03:03:29 PM
I think we just have to accept that Armageddon has moved past the desire for characters that sit in taverns. It almost feels like if you removed them, most people wouldn't even notice. People just have better things to do than sit in taverns. Most of the things that people enjoy about the game don't happen in taverns, a vast majority of the time.
Agreed. If that's the case, there is another can of beans waiting to be opened- the discussion of how make clans more appealing that what they may be are.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 07, 2020, 03:16:05 PM
Sorry, but playability vs realism is already rampant in the game and for good reason. No one wants to wait multiple RL days to recover from injuries, or have permanent injuries. No one wants to eat and drink constantly. No one wants to have coded pregnancy or prison sentences that last IC years. And I for one don't want to wander the game for an hour trying to find another player who may be doing the same thing so I can do more than solo rp.
I didn't say it didn't exist. I said it was an all-encompassing argument that was basically not compelling because of how easy it is to apply to what is supposed to be hardcore roleplay.
You say you don't want to wander around looking for people to rp with. I say you are shorting people of opportunities for roleplay by refusing to roleplay looking for people. You say it's just game sense. I say it's just roleplay sense. You say you don't want to log in to do it. I say you don't really enjoy the game much altogether then. You're literally at the point that you just can't be asked to walk 15 rooms to check taverns (which as far as I can tell, is what you're proposing actually shows up here?).
This is also a clear case of opposites of posits also being true...
QuoteThat way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.
This, likewise, promotes people not bothering to -go- to roleplay in the first place. No one's there, I shouldn't be there. At least when you walk there, look in, see no one, sometimes you'll decide to sit down and wait 5 minutes so that the -next- guy who didn't have access to 'where' walks on over to see someone there. The usage of it, compared tot he purpose stated for it, just doesn't line up in any way. It reduces down to a convenience thing that counters something that -isn't even that inconvenient if you're already logged in the game-.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 07, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
You say you don't want to wander around looking for people to rp with. I say you are shorting people of opportunities for roleplay by refusing to roleplay looking for people. You say it's just game sense. I say it's just roleplay sense.
Are you actually making these arguments in good faith that you think they're correct, or just trying to point out that logically opposing arguments exist...? If the former, I'm genuinely curious to understand this mindset more as it completely baffles me. If the later, yes, I acknowledge that a counter argument could exist...doesn't mean I think it holds water though.
Again, only trying to debate the notion of whether playability should be an important element for introducing features into the game. Not this specific idea, which I think is only so-so at best.
Well then we'll just have to be baffled about each other. Like I said, it's the same basic argument as Who -c.
Whenever I argue against these things, it's usually based on the influence of player, not character, behavior. People often brush it aside as minor, even though it carries very real and significant impact. Your argument is that people can't be bothered to walk for 3 minutes to see if people are out and about. My argument is that this could very easily limit the potential of finding roleplay, just as much or more than it helps it, making it a non-solution, in particular because once this game puts things in it tends to never take it out.
Basically, every argument for it comes with some check for not attempting to engage until the situation is ideal, which when even a few players start, leads to a snowball effect of non-ideal situations.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 07, 2020, 03:03:14 PM
...
It's just the WHO C argument all over again. I think it's a pretty terrible idea.
I don't think it's the WHO C argument if the "where players are" locations were sufficiently generalized.
aka:
>who
There are 13 players around Allanak
There are 8 players around Tuluk
There are 8 players around the Tablelands and Luir's Outpost
======================================================================
There are 29 players online
Quote from: mansa on September 07, 2020, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 07, 2020, 03:03:14 PM
...
It's just the WHO C argument all over again. I think it's a pretty terrible idea.
I don't think it's the WHO C argument if the "where players are" locations were sufficiently generalized.
aka:
>who
There are 13 players around Allanak
There are 8 players around Tuluk
There are 8 players around the Tablelands and Luir's Outpost
======================================================================
There are 29 players online
The only issue I see is the meta-game used with that. If there are only X amount of people playing around Tuluk at a given time, and it shows that they are online, that may guide play (if they are, for instance, hunted). Oh. They are online. Great, let's organize the posse.
Otherwise...I don't really have a problem with seeing generally where people are, in play region, I guess.
Quote from: mansa on September 07, 2020, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 07, 2020, 03:03:14 PM
...
It's just the WHO C argument all over again. I think it's a pretty terrible idea.
I don't think it's the WHO C argument if the "where players are" locations were sufficiently generalized.
aka:
>who
There are 13 players around Allanak
There are 8 players around Tuluk
There are 8 players around the Tablelands and Luir's Outpost
======================================================================
There are 29 players online
That is the same argument. It's reduced to a bunch of people checking it, finding a condition that is not ideal, and logging out or engaging in something else, where as the unknown, it sends them off to see for themselves and increases likelihood that they actually create the ideal for someone else.
All that it does is create a state where you either get what you would have gotten anyway, or you don't go at all, and thus never meet up with people looking for the same condition. In the beginning, small effect. Over time, it turns into the log in, check, log out scenario where 4 people do it within an hour of each other and would have gotten what they wanted by just not being -told- by the command that there was nothing to do there.
By that train of logic, you'd do away with "who" all together, so players never knew how many people were actually online or not. Could be 1, could 100. I don't like that for the obvious reasons, but I do see your point at least.
I kinda don't dislike the idea of getting rid of The Who command.
Quote from: wizturbo on September 07, 2020, 05:09:49 PM
By that train of logic, you'd do away with "who" all together, so players never knew how many people were actually online or not. Could be 1, could 100. I don't like that for the obvious reasons, but I do see your point at least.
Well, yeah, if you want to go into extreme ends and hyperbole. I mean, they've complained about people in off-peak hours logging in, doing a who, and logging off. Difference being that I'm not saying keep who (remove it if you really want to go there), I'm saying don't add more things that are similar, that are more specific, and more targeted, out of sheer expectation that it will lead directly to more interaction when this sort of thing has been shown to swing pretty hard both ways.
ETA:
I mean...take all this with a grain of salt here, Wiz. I'm the guy who fought against colors. I still rant about this and that with consistency. But right now I'm not the guy saying 'NO, THIS IDEA SUCKS!', or I'm not trying to be at least. But I am the observer trying to say pump the brakes on that idea, I think that has some serious possible side affects or reversals to consider as far as how it might actually be used versus how it's intended to be used.
Cool. No worries Armaddict. As I've said in the thread, I don't think it's a stellar idea anyway, just want to try and improve the ability for players to find others to interact with. Having a small, dispersed player population in a large game world makes that challenging, and anything we can do to improve that without breaking other areas of the game (or making the issue worse!) seems worth doing.
Ultimately it's part of what I think a core challenge is with Armageddon, and that's discoverability of the fun. Cool plots are going on, great players are lurking about, but finding them isn't always easy. Go through a dry spell of not finding the fun for long enough, and it gives you the wrong impression that such fun does not exist...when in fact you just aren't finding it.
I think there should be less stigma surrounding 'Not Playing in Allanak'. I think the 'What you would know' sections should be updated, and a few equally good options should be presented to new and old players alike. Just a few examples (Missing Tablelands/Red Storm):
Allanak:
-Currently the only open 'City State' in the game.
-Typically the highest player count in the game.
-Most access to clans / employment.
-Most access to political play (Aides and Nobles and so on)
-Authoritarian Government, meaning commoner PCs are subject to the whims of Nobility and Templars.
-Easy to Middling Difficulty to survive as an independent PC. The lands and creatures around Allanak can be dangerous.
Luirs:
-Typically the second highest player count in the game.
-Second most access to clans / employment.
-Mercantile Council, where the Greater Merchant Houses are the law. Can lead to more or less latitutude for a Commoner PC, both from Luirs, and staying in Luirs.
-Easy to survive as an independent PC.
-Easy to find other Independent PCs to join up with.
Tuluk (Morin's Village):
-Typically the lowest player count in the game.
-Least access to clans / employment.
-Virtual Authoritarian / Facist Government. While you may encounter the Law in Morin's, it is most often reinforced by Criminal Code.
-Easy to Middling Difficulty to survive as an independent PC. The lands around Morin's Village can be dangerous.
-Communal Living and camaraderie built in, for the most part. Find out IC for more details.
-Difficult to survive elsewhere in the world due to origin in Northlands, and easily identifiable tattoos associated with being a citizen of the Gol Krathu region.
--
I honestly think we should present more options than just Allanak to new players. It sort of sucks that now you have to play your first PC in Allanak. Allanak isn't the place that hooked me in, and I'm sure others agree. I was 15 when I started, and was by no means a genius, but I didn't start in Allanak, and had much fun learning about the game from other angles.
Quote from: KittenLicks on September 07, 2020, 02:52:48 PM
Thought experiment for people that think a 'where' command is unrealistic: Tomorrow, I make a character, we'll call him Tavernsitter Amos. Tavernsitter Amos' only goal in life is to look through all the taverns in Allanak and keep track of who is there. People can Way Tavernsitter Amos and ask, and he'll tell them, same as anyone would. "Oh, it's just the regulars in here today." or "There's some big get together at the bar, lots of people drinking."
EDIT: Maybe we should just find some person and start paying them to tell you how many people are at the Gaj, tbh. Find some poor grebber and designate him as Tavernsitter Amos.
Added that to my ideas bucket for future characters!
Quote from: Armaddict on September 07, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
This is also a clear case of opposites of posits also being true...
QuoteThat way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.
This, likewise, promotes people not bothering to -go- to roleplay in the first place. No one's there, I shouldn't be there. At least when you walk there, look in, see no one, sometimes you'll decide to sit down and wait 5 minutes so that the -next- guy who didn't have access to 'where' walks on over to see someone there. The usage of it, compared tot he purpose stated for it, just doesn't line up in any way. It reduces down to a convenience thing that counters something that -isn't even that inconvenient if you're already logged in the game-.
Why? If you know you've just flagged a room as having people in it, and you want RP to find you...why WOULDN'T you sit there? Sure, there is nobody there now, but if you're up for any RP (of that social status), plonking yourself others can see is where you are means that RP might well come and find you. Idle for 10 minutes/RP with the vNPCs, see if anyone shows? I already do this and nobody knows I'm there...for 3+ RL hours I've sat in a tavern hoping someone might stop by (welcome to being off-peak!). I guess I AM Tavernsitter Amos! Well...was, two characters ago ;D
Quote from: Armaddict on September 07, 2020, 04:02:16 PM
Your argument is that people can't be bothered to walk for 3 minutes to see if people are out and about.
...some of us don't spamwalk, and it can take WAY longer than 3 RL minutes to cross the entire city to get over to the action areas, then extra time searching (searching time isn't the problem, once you're up and winkled out of your hole, you're up!), even without factoring in time schlepping back. It is disheartening when you do the right thing, don't stack commands to speed over, RP the environment, and still don't find anyone. My opinion might be coloured though, since the last time I was in a situation of hunting somewhere like Allanak, I invariably got called back 'home' for RP in a compound, the moment I'd gotten the furthest distance away (it is almost like a bell tinkled and alerted people!).
But! Regardless. It was an idea I saw elsewhere where it did work and helped congregate people. But it was a very different environment (and had extra features that almost certainly would be less popular here). Just trying to spitball ideas to help from the (let's not say how many) years of experience MUDing I've had...under the knowledge that the Arm gameworld won't likely be shrinking any time soon, nor will the off-peak player levels rise. All under the garnish that I'm a social player, and don't tend to enjoy PvE, so finding people is my, personal, priority when playing.
When I started back in 2003 it was not compulsory for new players to start in Allanak but it was highly recommended. I am glad that I followed the recommendation for it really hooked me on the game. I loved the rigid social structures, the brutality of the templarate, the hierarchies that were built into every single thing. I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore and the world of Allanak really set me up to RP with this different world in mind.
I think it is a good thing for newbies to continue to start there for it gives a good foundation that will allow them to play anywhere else afterward. I don't believe the converse would be true. Someone who plays a couple of characters in Luir's would be woefully ill equipped to play in Allanak.
I think that the playerbase, since this is now ten pages worth of discussion about Allanak and not the first one, very much agrees that there is some sort of issue that we all recognize, see, feel and experience when it comes to the city as it is now. I think it's been a surprisingly civil discussion, which lends itself to the idea that maybe, for once, a really large cross section agrees in the bigger picture, that there IS a problem, with many different issues.
But the problem with Allanak is only going to see some sort of resolution and answer when there's a staffside reply to what they have observed going on with the changing, migration and shifting of the playerbase and interests, and offer up any sort of solutions to how to if not fix it, stopgap it somehow.
It's the stealth meta. It's the world plot. It's the gmh. It's the Rinth's population. It's the moneysinks. It's a lot of things. But until staff offers up some sort of "Hey, we see _THIS_ as being one of the problems, and this is how we'd like to correct it", it's just going to be easier to duck your head in the sand and ignore it, play a pc there or elsewhere, rinse and repeat.
I know this isn't going to be a popular take on things, but here we go, I'll try to be as respectful and succinct as I can be.
As a player who's been playing for a number of years, (this is a newer forum account so don't take that as gospel). I feel that the issue is the players are spread too thing.
Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly, it was cool to have folks in Allanak, Luirs, whatever.
But now that it tends to be 20-30ish, it needs to consolidate.
Now I know people would riot if we said you can't live/operate in areas outside Allanak, so that's the heart of the problem? How do you get folks to interact around the main city in the game more? Without taking away the independence to do what they want.
I personally am a traveler/explorer type in this game, so I would hate to be confined to Allanak, but I tend to stay focuses around Allanak just in case someone wants to get a hold of me.
With folks living their whole player lives in Luirs and never stepping foot into another city, or simply running to the Gaj to drop a rumor with their name like some postcard advertising "Live in Luirs, it's better!" or enter your favorite city/location there is that spread.
With the work from home stuff going on, I play sometimes during the day 8-5EST and there is less than 10 players on, so it becomes a PVE type game in most cases, it's like playing wow but no other players are on, you gotta make your own fun, and I'm fine doing that, that's not really a bad thing in all cases. But it would be awesome if of those 10 folks, they were easily found for interaction, whether that be good or bad.
As of right now:
There are 26 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
But where the hell are they? I have no clue? Could I travel the worlds three major locations, sure if I want to risk the hazards of the road, and it makes sense, but then there is the problem of, "Why would Amos my dude go riding across the world looking for folks when there is tons in Allanak?"
So it's a difficult problem, I hope someone finds a way to consolidate us without limiting us, and I think that's why it's been like this for so long. It's not an easy problem to fix.
I second consolidation if it still doesn't hinder us.
Quote from: Barsook on September 18, 2020, 06:57:23 PM
I second consolidation if it still doesn't hinder us.
Consolidation can hinder by causing people to leave. Some people just don't want to play in Allanak, others very badly want to play in other places. Others get sick of playing in the same place.
A percentage of those will just leave if there's too much pressure put on them.
I think this problem can be better solved by giving players more ability to consolidate themselves if they so choose. One possibility would be an anonymous shoutbox (anonymous to players, staff could see who was posting) where you could announce your age/sex/loc... errr, activity/time/vague location.
For instance:
Hunting/4pmEST/Red Desert
or
Mugging/7pmEST/South Allanak alleys
It'd be entirely opt in. You could post something or not post it. There'd be some sort of standards for what you could post and how detailed, and staff could monitor it by account even though players couldn't.
Quote from: Narf on September 18, 2020, 07:14:51 PM
Quote from: Barsook on September 18, 2020, 06:57:23 PM
I second consolidation if it still doesn't hinder us.
Consolidation can hinder by causing people to leave. Some people just don't want to play in Allanak, others very badly want to play in other places. Others get sick of playing in the same place.
A percentage of those will just leave if there's too much pressure put on them.
All you need to do is look at the many, MANY threads on the closure of Tuluk and people that claim they left/know people who left/know people who would come back if it reopened...to know that consolidation will almost certainly cause another exodus of players.
I generally like Allanak RP, and usually I'm happy to flit back and forth between the rinth and southside, but being able to escape into a non-city based area when you 'know everyone' is good. And is probably healthy to move around if you have a bad death - I may be capable of splitting IC from OOC, but if I know everything about A, B and C characters it can be exhausting to have to remember I don't, or to side with the villains from my last character's narrative. I prefer to take a clean break, go elsewhere, and give Allanak a chance to reshuffle new characters into play. And as a social player (rather than explorer or PvE lover), taking away the option to move away from one location to another, would kill my motivation to make another character - instead I'd go play something else to wait out that 'reshuffle', and invariably forget to return for 5 years (good thing? Bad thing? Even if you have a rabid hatred of me and want me to encourage me to leave, if a proportion of players feel the same on this point, that isn't good for the game as a whole!).
Ironically, consolidation would be less painful if we had higher numbers. Since I could roll another character in Nak and play with other people. But when you have a low player count, and ESPECIALLY if you're off-peak, you bump into the same characters over and over, and the same players over and over (which can be awesome). Letting people disperse a bit, with some having 'favourite areas', and some shuffling around, keeps things a bit fresher...at least in my experience.
Quote from: Pariah on September 18, 2020, 05:53:23 PM
Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly, it was cool to have folks in Allanak, Luirs, whatever.
But now that it tends to be 20-30ish, it needs to consolidate.
The fuller unedited post seems to be based on the above criteria, and it's this criteria I disagree with because historically - it's just not very accurate.
Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly was a very short period in the game's history. Armageddon has typically had most nights around 40-50 during peak time, except during well-promoted RPTs that were planned in advance. Prior to the "crazy days" of the failed switch to Armageddon v.2, it was common to only see a few dozen on the who list.
And yet - there were lots of open clans, two cities open, all of the coded desert elf tribes open, players were allowed to play in virtual desert elf tribes, the Tan Muark was active.
The overall playerbase was more active. Remember the number of people logged in at any given moment is not equal or comparable to the number of people who play actively in total. Peak time might be 30, but an hour earlier it might be 25. And five hours earlier it might be a completely different 20 people playing. And 5 hours after peak ends, it might be a whole other set of 20 people.
Having 60-70 people logged in at night means absolutely nothing, if only a handful of players are playing at 8 in the morning eastern time, or at 10PM australian time.
It just means most of the active players happen to be available to play around the same time period of the day. You could change things to increase the popularity of that peak time, and end up alienating your off-peak players to profoundly that they all quit.
If everything that happens, is happening at 10PM every weeknight, I know I'll quit. There'd be no point in logging in at all, if there isn't anyone else around every single time I log in, and then I have to log out for bedtime every single night that something starts to happen. I know I'm not the only one in that situation.
I feel that SOME condensing of the game was needed, at one point. But the game has evolved from there, and I feel it's time to expand again. If you limit peoples' options, they will seek out more options elsewhere. And if we are the place where the options are LESS restricted than some other places, we will be the game people come to.
I'm not saying open everything back up. I don't think that's the right way to go either. But I do feel that expansion, rather than concentration, is the next thing to try.
Open up a new liveable area. Support someone trying to create a liveable area out of a place that currently isn't one. Add a new clan, or re-open an old one, for desert elves. Add some air of spooky mystery to an existing clan (or restore said spooky mystery to one that used to have it, and currently doesn't). Re-open Tuluk. Discover a few halflings that have fled to some place and adapted to their new environs enough to make them a discoverable, playable race again.
Any of the above. Not all of the above. But those are just a few ideas of "expansion" that I'm talking about.
If Allanak ever becomes the only place in the game to play a character in socially outside of karma or app-in roles, I will very likely quit playing.
I know that there is a big push to get more people to play in Allanak, but I'm just not that interested in playing every character in Allanak. Sorry. The player base is too small and running into the same long-lived characters over and over again gets old.
That goes for any social hub. We need choices. When our characters die, we shouldn't be forced to play around all of the same characters all over again.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 19, 2020, 11:38:12 AM
Quote from: Pariah on September 18, 2020, 05:53:23 PM
Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly, it was cool to have folks in Allanak, Luirs, whatever.
But now that it tends to be 20-30ish, it needs to consolidate.
PRETTY MUCH THE TRUTH
I think the honest actual problem is Luirs.
Do you want politics? Luirs has that. Do you want to hunt? Luirs has all the merchant houses, housing, and access to all the goods everyone wants. Do you want to be a burlgar? There's fairly easy to open apartments.
I, in an OOC sense, would be all for some sort of plot that destroys Luirs for the GMH, and turns it into a tribal trading post that is maintained by a council of Tribal heads. This would give TRIBALS a good base of roleplay. GMH already have politics up to their necks in Allanak. And requiring all the GMH Leader pc's to get together every time a Garrison Captain dies can prove to be a pain in the ass that limits things due to ooc concerns.
This Tribal Outpost would also allow some of the more aggressive Tribes to open back up. SLK, Benjari, ect. Because now there will be a tribal outpost with actual players in it (sorry blackwing) and politics for them to push their wars with.
It's very clear that numbers declined steeply following Tuluk's closure. Up until then, weekly logins had been in the high 200s and sometimes reaching 300. Years of stable numbers. Then Tuluk closed and in a span of five years, the weekly numbers dwindled from 280+ to 160ish. While the data doesn't spell it out for us what caused it, I think we're all wise enough to know that erasing one of the game's two city-states without any sort of follow-up is the reason.
Quote
April 29 to May 6, 2013
286 Unique Logins
May 5 to May 12, 2014
264 Unique Logins
April 27 to May 4, 2015 ---- Tuluk closes April 27th
276 Unique Logins
April 25 to May 2, 2016
220 Unique Logins
April 24 to May 1, 2017
227 Unique Logins
April 23 to April 30, 2018
198 Unique Logins
April 22 to April 29, 2019
200 Unique Logins
Then we arrive at 2020. As we all know, Covid-19 was a big upset for anything that concerns online demographics as large swaths of people across the world were suddenly home all day. Now, before Covid really hit and the lockdowns had yet to take hold, numbers were still on a clear downward trend:
QuoteJanuary 20 to January 27, 2020
190 Unique Logins
February 17 to February 24, 2020
177 Unique Logins
Then the lockdowns hit and things start looking up again, for self-evident reasons:
QuoteApril 20 to April 27, 2020
211 Unique Logins
April 27 to May 4, 2020
211 Unique Logins
As we know, there was a month or so when Armageddon was hitting peaks in the 60s and 70s. But not much was done around that time to actually capitalize on this spike and draw people in, so numbers dwindled again:
QuoteMay 25 to June 1, 2020
190 Unique Logins
June 8 to June 15, 2020
188 Unique Logins
And then even as we begin to approach present day, numbers continue to nosedive:
QuoteJuly 6 to July 13, 2020
174 Unique Logins
August 3 to August 10, 2020
162 Unique Logins
August 31 to September 7, 2020
162 Unique Logins
These are alarming numbers, and while they may compel one to wish for consolidation, it's undeniable that the decline began when Tuluk was closed down... in the name of consolidation. Although the cynics among us might say that the true reason behind the massive loss of players was not merely the fact that Tuluk closed but also that very little was done to enrich the game's remaining start locations, I'm more inclined to think that the sheer loss of real estate within the game was what caused it. It just became a smaller, poorer game.
At this point, what can even be shut down? You can't delete Luir's from the map, it's right in the middle of everything and all roads lead to the outpost, as it were. Red Storm is also hard to do away with, it's essentially a suburb of Allanak at this stage. Tribes? Well, how many are even left anymore? Three? I suppose we could get rid of Morin's without stepping on very many toes, but would that have much of an effect on anything?
Consolidation by content culling is not the key to this game's recovery. It needs something that brings people back and keeps them logged in, not something that removes character concepts and playable areas. That was attempted and it was a gigantic failure.
I totally respect people want to play how they want to play, I know I struggle to fit into the roles I sometimes find myself in, be them social/job or location specific.
Maybe the solution is like someone said earlier, with Who displaying the general local of folks, Allanak and surroundings, Luirs and surroundings.
But that does require a shit load of trust that folks who literally play the game to cut up people with bone swords aren't going to metagame and go hunting folks because 15 are around Allanak for instance.
I think that's the challenge right? You want to play what's fun and enjoyable, but you have to play it within the established documentation. So creating a desert elf that runs the world is fun as shit, but not really following the lore of the game.
I agree I used to like when there were all sorts of desert elves, red fangs and all that shit. But I don't know how you add more to the game without increasing numbers first. You could always add more and -hope- word of mouth reaches old and new players, but I don't know.
If it was easy someone would have already done it.
Quote from: Greve on September 19, 2020, 12:37:54 PM
It's very clear that numbers declined steeply following Tuluk's closure. Up until then, weekly logins had been in the high 200s and sometimes reaching 300. Years of stable numbers. Then Tuluk closed and in a span of five years, the weekly numbers dwindled from 280+ to 160ish. While the data doesn't spell it out for us what caused it, I think we're all wise enough to know that erasing one of the game's two city-states without any sort of follow-up is the reason.
Quote
April 29 to May 6, 2013
286 Unique Logins
May 5 to May 12, 2014
264 Unique Logins
April 27 to May 4, 2015 ---- Tuluk closes April 27th
276 Unique Logins
April 25 to May 2, 2016
220 Unique Logins
April 24 to May 1, 2017
227 Unique Logins
April 23 to April 30, 2018
198 Unique Logins
April 22 to April 29, 2019
200 Unique Logins
Then we arrive at 2020. As we all know, Covid-19 was a big upset for anything that concerns online demographics as large swaths of people across the world were suddenly home all day. Now, before Covid really hit and the lockdowns had yet to take hold, numbers were still on a clear downward trend:
QuoteJanuary 20 to January 27, 2020
190 Unique Logins
February 17 to February 24, 2020
177 Unique Logins
Then the lockdowns hit and things start looking up again, for self-evident reasons:
QuoteApril 20 to April 27, 2020
211 Unique Logins
April 27 to May 4, 2020
211 Unique Logins
As we know, there was a month or so when Armageddon was hitting peaks in the 60s and 70s. But not much was done around that time to actually capitalize on this spike and draw people in, so numbers dwindled again:
QuoteMay 25 to June 1, 2020
190 Unique Logins
June 8 to June 15, 2020
188 Unique Logins
And then even as we begin to approach present day, numbers continue to nosedive:
QuoteJuly 6 to July 13, 2020
174 Unique Logins
August 3 to August 10, 2020
162 Unique Logins
August 31 to September 7, 2020
162 Unique Logins
These are alarming numbers, and while they may compel one to wish for consolidation, it's undeniable that the decline began when Tuluk was closed down... in the name of consolidation. Although the cynics among us might say that the true reason behind the massive loss of players was not merely the fact that Tuluk closed but also that very little was done to enrich the game's remaining start locations, I'm more inclined to think that the sheer loss of real estate within the game was what caused it. It just became a smaller, poorer game.
At this point, what can even be shut down? You can't delete Luir's from the map, it's right in the middle of everything and all roads lead to the outpost, as it were. Red Storm is also hard to do away with, it's essentially a suburb of Allanak at this stage. Tribes? Well, how many are even left anymore? Three?
Consolidation by content culling is not the key to this game's recovery. It needs something that brings people back and keeps them logged in, not something that removes character concepts and playable areas. That was attempted and it was a gigantic failure.
Not the loss of real estate. The loss of a unique style of roleplay, with unique politics. The loss of force stored longtime nobles, the loss of about 1/3rd of the population's plots. That single move pissed off so many players. Not just the Tuluk centric ones like I was.
I don't believe we disagree, if you really think about it.
I am also in the side that agrees if we opened up more player-friendly places to play, players will be able to jump back into the game in another part of the world and start a different story once their current character dies.
It is very tough to go from a Guilder, to a Merchant House Employee, to a Noble, if you're mostly stuck in the same city playing with the same characters.
I don't think it's as simple as that. I think it's the fact that this game was, once upon a time, built wholly upon the concept of playing City X vs. City Y. We can all sit here for ages and wax nostalgic about the witless theories of game design, but the fact remains that ArmageddonMUD was a far better game back when it still adhered to the principles upon which it was founded: two city-states at war, whether that was hot or cold--and even when it was cold, it felt like it could turn hot at any moment. This is what was lost when one of the two was closed, and while I never really loved to play in Tuluk, its existence was just so goddamn important to the game as a whole that its loss was ruinous.
I played my fair share in Tuluk, even though I didn't like the bards and all that nonsense, I did like the surroundings of Tuluk and it does feel like a cheap version when you play in Morin's.
I would be totally fine with Tuluk opening again, but I'm not sure why, it seems like staff is totally against it.
More things to play means people play more...it is that simple.
Especially for people that have played longer. Back when Tuluk was open along with more human and elf tribes, undertuluk, several different things for gemmers to do like the council etc. It was easier to keep excited about the current and next PC. Because Often even if you were on PC #40 in 20 years there was still clans and places you might have never played. Or maybe only played once or twice and the last time was 5 years ago.
Today, for people with half the play time I have there is likely no place/clan they have not played MANY times over. And what is worse is, for many, who have PCs that last for 90 days RL or so, those places and clans could, in many cases have been played in less then a year past.
But now...I can play Bynner #12, Militia #5, Oash gemmed #4, unclanned gemmed #6, rogue mage #10, merchant house #7, and indy unknown number.
No chance to play Anyali or dunestalkers, any of the northside rinth elf tribes, Many of the Tuluki clans and several other things that are not public.
And that is not even talking about things closed even earlier like Gith and halflings etc.
I have said many many times over the years, remove options and you remove players...it is always the case.
Adding more clans/locations gives people an excuse to keep playing after they die. It spreads us out but keeps us playing. And any sensible player who knows how to create roleplay hooks will still find ways to interact with foreign agencies.
Adding more clans is where I'm fine, but urg, it creates niches and spreads out the playerbase thin. That's my problem because I'm mainly a social-political player. I need to socialize.
Nak should reach out and dick with EVERYONE. Add another Templar to head up a Tribal Harassment Ministry. Keep everyone politicking and involved by constantly meddling in the pettiest shit.
Quote from: Barsook on September 19, 2020, 09:13:54 PM
Adding more clans is where I'm fine, but urg, it creates niches and spreads out the playerbase thin. That's my problem because I'm mainly a social-political player. I need to socialize.
Unless your idea of socializing is talk about the weather, other pointless polite conversation and witty reparte about nothing at all, or picking fights with elf #473, you need topics of interest, deals to make, politics to play. That's all well and good until you realize you're playing the same politics with the same group of people over and over and over again and nothing is changing other than the sdescs of the people you're politicking with.
That's why the more, the better. Your Oashi would probably be more interesting TO YOU - as the player of the Oashi - if it wasn't always catty remarks against the current Borsail Lady, or poking fun again at the lowly Fale Lord. If you sent your minions northward to seek out a precious thing - only to return with talk of soldiers chasing them and now suddenly you have someone calling herself Chosen Lady in your mind making threats...
you can do all that while sitting at the bar. Socio-politic your way into fame and fortune, create wars, participate in wars, end wars - do spectacular things without lifting a sword or crafting a single pair of silky black braies.
Some of my favorite roles IG over the years have been Noble/Merchant guard/hunter type PCs. In these type roles there are not only opportunities for day to day type work, but also conflict between noble and merchant houses which involved commoner PCs of a diverse set of roles.
For example, I've had, like I'm sure many others, a few PCs play in the Winrothol Cavaliers. In that role, your PC would train, patrol the lands around the City, hunt a few critters for materials to craft arrows for the unit or make a bit of coin on the side. All the while, Tenneshi PCs are doing similar things, and every now and then those PCs step on each others toes. It's not as if the Cavaliers were bursting at the seams with other PCs either, some times only having one other PC to regularly interact with in House.
This sort of gameplay existed in the south as well, with the Tor Scorpions, the Borsail Wyverns, the Oashi Guard, etc. Let's not forget GMH hunter crews, which provide similar opportunities. While the general idea of day to day work and opportunities for conflict rang true for all of them, each individual clan RP'd very differently from one another. Tor Scorpions are a bit more militaristic, while the Oashi Guard just looks fly walking into the Gaj in the black and azure while sipping on some Ocotillo spirits.
Anyway, when I heard that Tuluk was shutting down, I assumed that we would get to keep the diverse set of noble/gmh house roles just all in the same city. This sounds great on paper. A larger concentration of PCs in various different Houses, operating on a smaller grid on the map. However, it certainly has not played out that way. I'm hesitant to blame the loss of the Tuluk v Allanak trope, as I always found the bulk of that conflict to exist practically virtually on how one uses the game world. We haven't lost the ability to include Tuluk virtually in our PCs' development. However, I do point my finger at the the focus on independent PCs and the shrinking of all commoner roles to aides and crafters only in the noble and GMHs respectively.
How is it now that a Noble House might entertain an unaffiliated lowborn at its estate in the Noble Quarters without a house guard escort? Get the militia to do it? That doesn't make any sense. Who's making trips out to the Oash estate to keep the spider population held back? We are to assume this happens virtually, but I do believe there are lots of lost opportunities here, and what we are left with is self interested PCs looking for a way to pay the rent.
Anyway, TLDR, my suggestion is to open back up the diverse commoner employment opportunities in the noble and merchant Houses, and pull back on forcing nobles and merchants to rely on independent PCs. I get the idea, but there was a lot of purpose in a PCs life lost in implementing it.
Edited to add:
Also, never had a problem seeing long lived PCs through several characters. Furthermore, it was kind of cool seeing them react differently in different situations. Prime examples for me include Raleris Winrothol, and Giuseppe, the Salarr hunter turned Oashi guard.
I agree with Spider, some of my favorite roles were old school Salarr and Kadius hunter PCs with a lead hunter etc.
This whole forcing of reliance on indy folks for materials and not hiring anything but crafters and aides is super forced. If Salarr or Kadius was a real company they wouldn't outsource that stuff, it's cheap and better for them to have those guys be in house.
I think that change could be one way to put more focus on GMH employment and maybe fix some of the issues without much work.
I'm not trying to contradict myself because I forgot about clan roles and I do agree what is said. Roles would better diversify than new clans. It's would be, for sure, less work as it doesn't really require many rooms to be written and built (sorry builders if that's not true).
Also, these roles do add the realism that is kind of lacking in game.
So I tend to play lots of hunter type roles, even my magickers are stalkers first and magickers second.
I will say under the new "buy from indy folks" system I've made literally shittons of coin from selling to Kadius, Salarr and Kurac.
However, I often thought that was broken as shit personally. I'm just some random dude out there killing scrab, drov beetles, jakhals etc etc and I'm making thousands upon thousands of sid that I can't spend fast enough.
Top tier Salarr Armor, top tier weapons, bow etc. So that's great while you're outfitting yourself to be Amos the badass hunter, but once you get all that, you have to actively look for coin sinks. I remember one of my older guys was literally paying folks to do VNPC things. Clean outside his apartment, he would leave his boots outside the door to be shined by X rinther guy and pay him X amount per month to do it.
So having the GMH buy from indy folks is great in idea, but broken as well.
I don't honestly know the fix, but it sure isn't what we got.
I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.
The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.
Quote from: Spiceoflife on September 20, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.
The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.
I touched on this before, but the above is the truth. On paper, the council is a great idea. There are problems though. Needing to rely on the Byn to move the members to votes means matching up another groups playtimes on top of everything. There are ways we can mitigate this, f the not completely IC ways, the easiest is to bring back the double merchant house roles. Kadius and Salarr used to have 1 family member in Tuluk and Allanak. This brought on a lot of inner house politicing and rp. I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.
And that's still ignoring my ooc idea of somehow, some way, giving it to the tribals. (Kurac would assasinate me for having this idea, but hey. I think it's the best idea)
Quote from: Fredd on September 20, 2020, 12:06:49 PM
I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.
+1
Quote from: Fredd on September 20, 2020, 12:06:49 PM
Quote from: Spiceoflife on September 20, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.
The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.
I touched on this before, but the above is the truth. On paper, the council is a great idea. There are problems though. Needing to rely on the Byn to move the members to votes means matching up another groups playtimes on top of everything. There are ways we can mitigate this, f the not completely IC ways, the easiest is to bring back the double merchant house roles. Kadius and Salarr used to have 1 family member in Tuluk and Allanak. This brought on a lot of inner house politicing and rp. I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.
And that's still ignoring my ooc idea of somehow, some way, giving it to the tribals. (Kurac would assasinate me for having this idea, but hey. I think it's the best idea)
I agree that the promotion up to Agent should come with more power (Council Seat) and perhaps more isolation (played in Luirs). If the GMH had three schemy fucks laying around Luirs calling council meetings all the time, it'd be great.
I think the other side of it is Council Votes should be a regular ongoing RPT. Every other Friday or Monday, whenever there is the most overlap of PCs schedules. Playing a GMH council member was frustrating for me, because it would take 1-2 months to get a vote to happen, and during the meeting, about 3/4 of the issues required more deliberation, so good luck actually voting or reaching a consensus.
I also think Staff can/should step in to send an emissary for a House that can't have a PC present, instead of delaying the vote indefinitely because Kadian Y can't be at any of the meetings. It's totally probable that House representatives either don't vote on issues they don't know or care about, or are out voted by people who are passionate (and richly passionate) about the issue. I think this would foment more active change in Luirs and the world via the Council.
I think Council members should also be able to send representatives in their stead, rather than the draconic rules of 'Must be a GMH Family Member/On the Council to be there'. It absolutely makes sense that a person trusted by that Council member can sit for them if they can't make a meeting. It's not like it's a Bynner Runner, it's typically a near-lifesworn commoner member of the House who has that Council member's confidences and trust. I think this would also help with scheduling issues endemic to the Council.
Couldn't we say the same for the Senate as a regular RPT?
Quote from: Barsook on September 20, 2020, 01:09:10 PM
Couldn't we say the same for the Senate as a regular RPT?
Anecdotally I suppose we could. I'm not involved with the Senate/PCs related to the Senate and never have, so I can only speculate. But I do think it would provide focus to Noble/Templar/GMH PCs other than interpersonal drama and plots. It's world-moving (if not world shaking) and any progression aside from personal plots is a good thing for the health of the game, in my opinion.
I don't think Senate meetings should be that regular, it reduces the weight of it. Once every IG year or every other IG year would translate to every 1.5-3 months (EDIT: Sorry, did my math wrong), which seems fair. I'd say every other year provides enough distance and time between the last one, new members that might be around, and prep time for PCs. Can't speak to Staff prep time or workload, it's likely a lot to wrangle.
I think every other IC year is enough distance between or maybe every five IC years which is closer to half a year in real life. *Shrugs*
Quote from: Barsook on September 20, 2020, 01:18:23 PM
I think every other IC year is enough distance between or maybe every five IC years which is closer to half a year in real life. *Shrugs*
I forget but I think Tuluk had the Triumvirate meeting every 7 IG years? Something like that.
I think so. I was also thinking along the lines of once a real life year to as it seems most of the biggest events are on that schedule.
For the sake of it, as I know it was mentioned back a number of pages, I've been actively reading the thread. Some confirmation that it's being seen/heard rather than yelled into the void doesn't hurt.
Staff discussion has been on-going for the team at large, as well.
Well, that's cool...nice to have a headsup.
Can we hear the staff thoughts?
I'm really proud of the civil discussion happening in this thread. Let's keep it up, guys (being civil that is!).
Well, really no reason to not be...I doubt there are many who feel strongly in favor of lower player count in areas or game in general.
:)
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on September 20, 2020, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: Fredd on September 20, 2020, 12:06:49 PM
Quote from: Spiceoflife on September 20, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.
The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.
I touched on this before, but the above is the truth. On paper, the council is a great idea. There are problems though. Needing to rely on the Byn to move the members to votes means matching up another groups playtimes on top of everything. There are ways we can mitigate this, f the not completely IC ways, the easiest is to bring back the double merchant house roles. Kadius and Salarr used to have 1 family member in Tuluk and Allanak. This brought on a lot of inner house politicing and rp. I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.
And that's still ignoring my ooc idea of somehow, some way, giving it to the tribals. (Kurac would assasinate me for having this idea, but hey. I think it's the best idea)
I also think Staff can/should step in to send an emissary for a House that can't have a PC present, instead of delaying the vote indefinitely because Kadian Y can't be at any of the meetings.
They do, but this is a choice avoided at all costs, as far as I know.
Having played within the system some:
I actually like that merchants need to go through Indy hunters or the markets (thereby opening up more space to sell) to get their raw goods. It creates the potential for plots and interaction and it's not like Indy hunters aren't getting rich whether they sell to a GMH PC or the market. Hunting divisions were fun to play in but I'm not sure they're needed. I'd rather see it be easier for PCs to set up their own hunting clans. Make it more dynamic and make it so that they need to balance the politics of who they sell to, etc.
The Garrison seems okay from my limited experience. What the clan feels like will just be highly dependent on who the PC leadership is, but that's true anywhere.
The Council seems like a total mess though. It's cool in theory but sounds like hell to actually get it moving. Totally in favor of seeing multiple GMH leadership roles. Those positions can be ridiculously busy when played right. There should also be options for getting council votes to move quicker in an emergency even if that means doing something absentee through the request tool.
In Red Storm, you are the leaders, whoever your group is. In Luir's, you're constantly around the leaders and movers and shakers, because they're just like you: tribals, GMH, soldiers. Tribes are tribes, and you're around everyone fun, and cool, and important that there is.
In Allanak, you literally never see leaders walking around doing stuff or talking with people. I've been playing actively and often for about two years now and I've run into nobles that same amount of times. And I'm not blaming players - it's thematic enough, but it's not OOCly exciting, or plot-driving, I think. That's what I think Allanak is missing: leaders that are publicly, in the scenes pushing plots and role-play.
Quote from: Barsook on September 20, 2020, 06:14:04 PM
Can we hear the staff thoughts?
You can hear some of mine, specifically?
Players, and I'm including myself in this, are going to play where they want to play. I don't believe in consolidation of the game world. I believe that drives players off, not together. If it worked to bring players together, this thread wouldn't exist. Some players thrive in difference environments, whether that be almost entire isolation for 5 days out of 7, playing in Tuluk (when it was open), various tribes, Luirs, Red Storm, etc. All of these play styles are valid. None trumps the other, and if you take away one, you don't necessarily get a +1 elsewhere, you get a -1 overall of the thing that was cut was the hook that brought the player in to begin with.
I also don't believe there's a single fix, despite the various put forward suggestions here:
Re-open Tuluk:
Spreads out the player base more. More holes to hide in. Doesn't solve the 'Quiet Allanak' issue as was the point of the OP. It can be argued that it would bring back old players/vets that love Tuluk/Charge the story line to hook newbies, and maybe that's true. Doesn't much matter to your Allanak PC that will, by and large, never see/interact with those players. This isn't some dismissal of vets that would love Tuluk back, nor is it me saying it never will. It's staying to the topic at hand, with what we currently have.
GMH agents in Luirs:
Makes Luirs even more attractive, despite being a /small/ hub, not less. Doesn't solve the OP.
Hunting Branches:
You can't have an indy crew of hunters? Why does going 'Stat' and seeing 'Recruit hunter of House Kadius' matter here? Not a snide reply, actual question.
Nostalgia is a beautiful set of rose-colored glasses, where we all remember 'Good times' doing XYZ, get the warm fuzzies and think that's what should 'be' again. It doesn't matter if that's Tuluk, Red Fangs, Halflings or even back to Mantis days. It's natural. It also doesn't last, which makes it literally impossible to meet needs/wants for every player, even if the staff ratio were 1 on 1, 24/7.
People lost their minds on the Arm2 stuff, and now they talk fondly of what happened during those days.
People loved/missed the Muark, then gave re-added/new content a beating on the boards when they did come back.
People wanted a new D-elf Tribe. Two Moons came in, and they barely see any love.
People want Gladiators, when no one applied two-three consecutive open calls.
People hated the power of mages/sorcs, and wanted new shiny packaging for char-gen options. Got it, now there's mourning of full-classes.
We'll win over some with a change, alienate others. The Halflings were fun because you guys made it fun with creativity and story telling through role play. The same could be done in Two Moons, the AoD or some Indy Crew out of Morins.
Staff have and will continue to throw out events/plots or support player initiative to keep things going, to make 'new nostalgia' and or new content, without closing the door on 'old content' (IE: Tuluk).
- There's been a good sized war in the salt-flats.
- There's been the addition of CW/TM/A New MMH, Terash, and every Noble House updated and/or reopened, the Muark and a C-Elf tribe in the works.
- There's Ocotillo Festival.
- There's the Senate.
- Luirs half blew up.
- There is an RPT gradually being made/built up besides the Senate that some of you in the south have caught glimpses of.
- There is a new entity on the board that has mostly gone missed that will have a "Big Impact."
- There is a potential world-spanning RPT/HRPT potential plot being cooked up, times 2.
There is mass potential for amazing stories for each PC in the game right now, no matter where they are and I hope that tipping my hand a little with the list above will encourage others to swing in to play as well, be it newbie or vet.
QuotePlayers, and I'm including myself in this, are going to play where they want to play. I don't believe in consolidation of the game world. I believe that drives players off, not together. If it worked to bring players together, this thread wouldn't exist. Some players thrive in difference environments, whether that be almost entire isolation for 5 days out of 7, playing in Tuluk (when it was open), various tribes, Luirs, Red Storm, etc. All of these play styles are valid. None trumps the other, and if you take away one, you don't necessarily get a +1 elsewhere, you get a -1 overall of the thing that was cut was the hook that brought the player in to begin with.
I'm in overall agreement with this, and am far more on the opening more rather than closing more side of things. This is kind of a mystery, though, since there have been closures in the name of consolidation in the past.
QuoteRe-open Tuluk:
Spreads out the player base more. More holes to hide in. Doesn't solve the 'Quiet Allanak' issue as was the point of the OP. It can be argued that it would bring back old players/vets that love Tuluk/Charge the story line to hook newbies, and maybe that's true. Doesn't much matter to your Allanak PC that will, by and large, never see/interact with those players. This isn't some dismissal of vets that would love Tuluk back, nor is it me saying it never will. It's staying to the topic at hand, with what we currently have.
I think this is kind of a shallow assessment of what's been said, no offense intended. I believe the hope is that by re-opening tuluk you respark interest with those who were very pro-tuluk, you get tuluki players, and in effect, you get a reason to be a die-hard nakki again since their age old enemy is actually active and even in lieu of actual war, there is at least subterfuge and raiding available to players that makes them feel like they are working for a cause rather than having things spawned in for them to kill in the Byn.
However, I also need to remind people of the common, if not overwhelming, complaint that Tuluk's state was ill-conceived and it needed revamps. So re-opening tuluk isn't as easy as 'it's open now', it's also working out the problems that people were having frustrations with before.
QuoteGMH agents in Luirs:
Makes Luirs even more attractive, despite being a /small/ hub, not less. Doesn't solve the OP.
Valid, but also kind of missing the meandering that's gone on throughout the thread. This started about just Allanak, but has kind of evolved into an overall state-of-the-game address with each player taking their turn at being the speaker. If the idea presented makes the game more enjoyable for people, worth listening to unless it's throwing things completely out of whack.
QuoteHunting Branches:
You can't have an indy crew of hunters? Why does going 'Stat' and seeing 'Recruit hunter of House Kadius' matter here? Not a snide reply, actual question.
Nostalgia is a beautiful set of rose-colored glasses, where we all remember 'Good times' doing XYZ, get the warm fuzzies and think that's what should 'be' again. It doesn't matter if that's Tuluk, Red Fangs, Halflings or even back to Mantis days. It's natural. It also doesn't last, which makes it literally impossible to meet needs/wants for every player, even if the staff ratio were 1 on 1, 24/7.
Look. At some point, you guys have got to get rid of this stigma that at least most of staff seem to have, which is that it's just old players pining for things. For one, most of what you have is old players, and for another, you can't hear the same things out of people who never experienced 'as it was'. This is people telling you that over the course of time, they don't think an idea was a good one. That's not nostalgia, that's an objective analysis of the impacts of a change.
As far as hunters go, I think that the experience of being an indy hunter group versus a house hunter group is...just different. I was never big on joining house hunter clans. It was never my thing. But the things were generally cycled through by other players, which meant that it granted a desired level of enjoyment for enough people in the game. Re-open them, and I don't think you'll see this massive recruitment drive into them, which seems to be what the 'rating of success' is often based on. Being a house hunter offers a bunch of little boons that are mostly roleplay oriented that simply don't exist right now. The allure of working for houses as a permanent indy is in itself kind of shortchanging your character...if you're going to be indy, you're going to be indy. That doesn't alleviate the desire of some to both hunt and work for a socio-political clan, and to both have a ranging character and a character that can be in a trusted role with plots, betrayals, and more established goals under the umbrella of actual clan support.
QuotePeople lost their minds on the Arm2 stuff, and now they talk fondly of what happened during those days.
People loved/missed the Muark, then gave re-added/new content a beating on the boards when they did come back.
People wanted a new D-elf Tribe. Two Moons came in, and they barely see any love.
People want Gladiators, when no one applied two-three consecutive open calls.
People hated the power of mages/sorcs, and wanted new shiny packaging for char-gen options. Got it, now there's mourning of full-classes.
These are all pretty selective.
-People lost their minds on the Arm2 stuff, that doesn't mean they weren't allowed to look at the all-time high of things happening and saying it was good, even if they didn't really like -what- was happening. It's not saying go directly back to carbon copies, it's saying that there were good qualities during that time that would be good to have again.
-I don't really have much to say on the muark, because I didn't see much bashing on it on their return. I know what the bashes were generally about before their closure, and I believe that major complaint has been alleviated in their return. But again, I just don't know much about this particular one.
-Compare the number of desert elf tribes then to what it was now. Look at which ones were most popular. Look at how long it took for some of those to 'take off', often entirely reliant on having one or two PC's thrive in them long enough that other people decided to run with them and check it out. As noted with the hunter houses...just opening something doesn't mean there has to be a migration to it immediately or it's failing. The importance is the availability of the role, particularly with what seems like a lower all-around PC turnaround rate. With fewer desert-elf tribe options though, and each of them so unique, it could just be that the flavor isn't the right one to bring about the massive interest you're looking for.
-The previous rendition of gladiators went great for a time, but became something where there were clear issues with how it was done. Gladiators being mostly for RPT's and nothing else...just got repetitive. It would probably work out better if you found a way for gladiator-holding accounts to be notified when a gladiator was wanted. Then it's not about this massive singular event...it's about people developing favorites from actual arena matches that fit into the story of the game instead of being a construct of it unto itself.
-Full-sorc's and nilazis, I rarely heard complaints about how powerful they got. What I normally heard, rarely, was how that power was used in terms of storytelling. I never really joined the critique of it myself. The more common criticism was about the full-guilds being both powerful and numerous, to the point that the mundane was taking a back seat in a lot of plots or being unable to go anywhere without seeing uber-mage number 5 through 16 every day. I don't believe that people being pleased with new chargen options and deciding that what was available prior wasn't so bad either are mutually exclusive.
I don't believe that absolutely nothing is going on. I've said as much myself. I don't think staff are sitting there doing nothing. Also never my intention to insinuate. But I do think there's a polarized 'shrugging off' of the concerns of the players by staff, and of the staff by players, and I do think it's entirely healthy for a game community such as this to be vocal and expressive of the things that they would look for out of the game for more enjoyment. I think that, when the game is built a certain way and functioning a certain way, it is not just entirely possible, but entirely probable that players will have a big hand in promoting their own fun. I also think that there are are valid concerns that have been brought up that make players feel crippled in that ability, which is the tone of a lot of things in the thread. Some things would require real staff support/work. Some just require a time investment at the front and upkeep after.
My thoughts on your thoughts. As always, take them with a giant grain of salt since I am, essentially, an Armageddon Creeper. Watching awkwardly from over here, waiting for the moment when things feel good to come on out again.
Quote from: Shabago on September 21, 2020, 01:29:49 AM
You can't have an indy crew of hunters? Why does going 'Stat' and seeing 'Recruit hunter of House Kadius' matter here? Not a snide reply, actual question.
The RP differences between being a part of a Merchant or Noble House mundane commoner hunter/guard do not reduce to the output of the stat command. The hunters/guards become relevant entities within the high end political tapestry of the game world, as well as a work horse of the fundamental aspects of how these Houses have and maintain their power, or even slide up or down on the Noble House ranking list. You cannot RP as a Borsail Wyvern, Oashi Regular, Salarri Hunter, etc. as an independent commoner. I've played all of these types of roles and there is just no comparison, the stat command has nothing to do with the distinctions.
Some examples:
Way back during the Volcano HRPT, my PC was an Oashi Regular. I got to watch as my PC stood guard near his Junior Noble in the Oash Manor, running around in a Panic to collect books, belongings, and other precious items to load up on a wagon and escape the city should the city's defenses fail. He heard the report come in that Lord Mallor Tor and those he rode with got demolished by whatever it was that threatened the City. No one else but an aide nowadays would be in such a position. It's a particular kind of weight a PC feels in Allanak when the city's elite soldiers, who were actual PCs, die off in an instant. Some indy hunter dying would not, and should not, elicit such a response. In this instance, my PC was just a regular fighter type PC with a caravan guide subguild, and he was useful as such.
You are playing a Tor Scorpion, and doing your normal routine training, or learning advanced warfare strategies. All of a sudden, your Junior Noble walks in to observe what is going on. For my PCs, that was a big deal. They felt they needed to impress someone that mattered, for reasons that mattered beyond getting the best armor and having a nice apartment. He'd walk into a tavern after a day's work to represent that he had made it to a place commoners only dream of, and interact with others in the tavern appropriately with that feeling. Other PCs would take a look at the uniform, and respond as if that meant something. Riding out into the wastes with a desert camouflaged greatcloak and fighting scrabs for a living does not offer such small, yet intensely developmental RP opportunities.
I'll end it here, and hope that you take my word for it that GMH hunter crews had similar cool things going on as well, that one just cannot experience as an independent.
Re: the merchant house hunters:
1. Kadian hunters really never needed to be a full crew, ever. I'd suggest that each set of PC crafters/merchants be allowed one "Huntsman" employee, whose job it is to acquire raw materials (other than cloth, obviously). He can contract independent hunters to do it for him, or he can go out and do it himself, or he can combine the two and contract independent hunters to escort him to gathering materials. He wouldn't be hiring other Kadian employees. He'd BE that "independent crew leader" who is independently serving Kadius, exclusively.
In that way, he can still be politically manipulated, he can play the social game, he can skillup to his heart's content, he can train outside his clan compound with the contracted hunters, etc. And he'll still be a hunter, still get to go out and gather materials, still get to go hunting and exploring. He just won't have an "official clanned" crew. All arranging of meetups will be done IC with the usual OOC references to dates and times.
2. Salarr definitely needs a hunting crew. There's no point in having a clan title of Crew Leader, if there's no crew to lead. They need the kinds of raw materials on the regular that require going out and hunting for them. They need their clan compound's sparring area to be used very specifically so its members can learn how to use their weapons and defense in preparation for hunting.
Salarr ALSO needs a "virtual discard" system, similar to a certain NPC in the Nakki templar quarter. You give the item to the NPC, and that NPC's script automatically stows it into a virtual inventory (or possibly junks it with just a different echo, not sure what exactly happens there).
This way, hunters who only need chalton hides, can still feel useful bringing in scrab bits, and giving them to the NPC so that the "virtual clan" can make use of the scrab bits. Maybe even rotate the cook's menu, so that if there are a LOT of a certain type of meat being brought in by PC hunters, the menu features food made from that type of meat.
Kurac's raw materials needs are different, and are handled in a different way. But they do need a small crew whose job it is to protect the trade route. The Garrison was set up to be that, no idea if it's still that now. But if it isn't, then Kurac needs to restore the Fist. If if the Garrison is *officially* doing this now, then Kurac doesn't need to restore the Fist but should have a liaison who serves Kurac, but in a Garrison capacity (double-clanned).
My tl;dr version: the merchant houses shouldn't ever feel they need to compete for hunters to join a hunting crew, because they have completely different needs for hunters. Salarr should be the "hunting crew" type for gathering materials that come mostly from animals. Kadius the "grebber" type, gathering materials primarily from everything other than animals. Kurac the "protection" type, not gathering anything at all other than the corpses of their enemies.
Reopening Tuluk:
I think it will bring back players who left, who like all that stupid bard roleplay and stuff that was distincly Tuluki (Yeah I said it, bards are stupid). Not to mention open up opportunities for nobility, GMH, Templar etc etc that the whole other city offers. Once word got out that Tuluk was open for business again, you'd probably see a resurgence of at least some of the players who like things that were Tuluki. I don' think it would really be pour some of the twenty people from Allanak into the Tuluk pile.
House Hunters:
As I said, I've been an indy hunter and made MASSIVE amounts of coins to support all my little kids that I made virtually with every whore around, it can be very profitable and rewarding. However, it's just not the same as saying, I'm Recruit Amos of House Salarr Hunting Division. It's a role and sometimes just the role or title is the reward more than the added little stat line.
Now, I don't know if there aren't trusted indy hunters who get clanned Salarr and can come and go as they want, I assume some GMH family member has probably done this, but I don't know.
Item Sinkhole (What Lizzie described):
Fuck yes, please, make a junk dealer or something who buys shit for 1 or 2 sides. Then we can go through workrooms, apartments whatever and get rid of the YEARS of barbed stingers, 500 scrab legs etc etc. Whether it's clan based or just some homeboy in the bazaar that would be awesome. Maybe have him act like a limited time bargain shop, keep the last twenty items that people sold him and resell them for a very small profit. You pay me 1 coin for a scrab leg, then sell it to Joe crafter for 5.
As to how you do it, I would love some way to get rid of shit without junking whole swaths of gear. I've even left certain things on main streets before thinking "Someone will take them..." To come back to them being there three real life days later.
Summary:
I'm not doggin the game at all, I think it's gotten much better in the past few years from the effort of both players and staff. However, I do think that some of the direction is odd, never really understood WHY they closed Tuluk, why they thought it was a good idea to take away 50% of the playable options in the two super power states. But I also didn't really research it much either. I just remember one day I could walk east at the scaien gates and the next it wasn't an exist anymore.
Ok merchant hunting crews my insight..
For much of the same reason as a GMH leader I would mostly ignore the garrison as a useful tool, loyalty. Indy hunters can they really be trusted to keep a secret on the fact you sent them to the hidden ruins somewhere to get X thing? No, but that hunter and his crew who have been workjng for you for years? Far more happy to send them.
I don't like the fact that my fondness for the house hunter role has been reduced to liking the line on my stat list. You can just take that remark and... well, I don't know, go somewhere else with it. It's insulting.
Quote from: Alesan on September 21, 2020, 10:24:26 AM
I don't like the fact that my fondness for the house hunter role has been reduced to liking the line on my stat list. You can just take that remark and... well, I don't know, go somewhere else with it. It's insulting.
This sort of reply to an earnest question to hear why they were so liked and why it can't be accomplished at present with indy crews, what with the actual word usage of "Not a snide reply, actual question." will very much so help me see it from your perspective.
To be fair, as the OP, reading this thread has made me realize that as a whole, Allanak is part of a delicate eco system.
And staff has done a lot! Especially in my time played which has only been a year. And there is only so much staff can do while keeping the spirit of the game alive.
Indie hunters and GMH hunters will not bring population back to Allanak. Hunters primarily go up North. The GMH houses that have hunters working for them usually work together up north. In the south, hunters aren't hunters. They're grebbers who are able to kill scrab and scorpion. Maybe more wild life in the south would help? I don't know. I do feel for people who miss things that are no longer available. My boyfriend's favorite time ever was as a part of a hunter group for a GMH. I see the light in his eyes when he talks.
Instead of bringing back old things, maybe we should brainstorm about new things that will bring people to the South. I've been wanting to really expand more on Red Storm and the culture there. The good thing about working on Red Storm is that it will also effect Allanak. Not in a raider sense, but traders can easily go North and South. People who live in Allanak are not in cages and unable to go free. It should be a hub, a place to crawl to and lick your wounds from the outdoors and the lawless world. Lately its been a lot better about letting people do that and not sapping them when they're down.
Some improvements I think would really help the city be more of an oasis and still keep the brutality that the game world strives on:
-Streetlamps down Caravan road outside busy establishments.
-Making the doorway for the Office of the mines larger so mounts can fit through. They can fit fine through the butcher shop, why not in a place where people are carrying lots and lots of stone?
- A place like the Sandlord's bounty but for Allanak. That way independent crafters and also crafters who work for GMH can buy and make a profit and not need to steal from their employers warehouses. They can practice, but also, they can't get everything they need.
If I think of a few more ideas, I'll post them!
Guys, just because Staff (and really, just A Staff Member, not all of Staff) respond with their views doesn't mean we need to jump down their throats.
Thanks, Shabago, for taking the time to write that out.
Some responses:
RE: Consolidation
I think the reasons why Tuluk was closed are often misconstrued. Though consolidation was tapped as a reason, the main reason from the announcement was reorganizing the Staff team. With an aging player base comes an aging Staff base as well, and I imagine free time to volunteer for the game is at a premium. If there is a new Staff member that was produced from the last role call, forgive the following, but this is the first time that I can remember that a new Storyteller (or two, or three) wasn't chosen and announced from a Staffing Call for the game in recent memory. It's a sign that our player base is, in fact, shrinking.
With that shrinking comes less capability by Staff to monitor and effectively tell stories for and with (2) Branches of (3) GMH, a completely separate Templarate and set of Noble Houses (2-4), a completely separate set of clans (Bards, Legions, Levies, Commoners/Indies in Tuluk). It's a lot. So from what I gather, it wasn't primarily an experiment at consolidation, it was a means to stymie problems of Staff turnover/burnout. If looked at through this lens, it is clear that Tuluk's closure being left as an OOC closure rather than IC (Destruction, etc) was a means to be able to walk back the decision if it turned out to not work out well.
Re-Open Tuluk:
As pointed out by others, this could be hit or miss. With an already shrinking player base, re-opening Tuluk as it was I don't think would be an intelligent move. In a different thread, people laid out ideas for re-opening it in stages, utilizing what is already available (Morin's Village, etc). Even this could be a failed experiment, and I'm not sure ArmageddonMUD needs experiments like this, taking two steps back, when we players and Staff can focus on taking two steps forwards. Taking risks in new directions, rather than in old ones. We have to remember that Tuluk went through endless documentation revision, map revision, and so on, and it still didn't work. At a certain point, you have to go back to the drawing board and scrap the whole thing. That's fine! But replacing it with something different and changed, smaller, more dynamic, and different from Allanak would be a great risky move, in my opinion.
Tuluk reminded me of Balic (From Dark Sun Lore) and Allanak reminded me of Tyr (Also from Dark Sun). Along those lines, there are several other city-states from Dark Sun that are each different from each other and provide interesting quirks, government ethics, templarate types, rights/no rights for commoners, factions, views on Magick, and so on. Maybe Balic wasn't the best choice for Zalanthas as an inspiration for Tuluk (or the amalgams of what made up Tuluk). Maybe Nibenay, or Uruk, or Gulg, Draaj, or Raam would be better suited. Each of those city-states in turn drew from real world templates, like Greece, Ethiopia, the Byzantine Empire, China, and so on. There are a plethora of options and flavors to choose from, and in a world building sense, the sky is the limit. With Tuluk being closed off and destroyed (roughly) it can be remade in a completely new image.
That to me is much more of an exciting concept and prospect than simply re-opening Tuluk and seeing what happens.
RE: GMH / Agents / Etc
That's a fair point. Making Luirs more appealing doesn't make Allanak more appealing or solve Allanak's problems. But on the converse, making Luirs more of a 'power' in competition with Allanak reintroduces more Us vs Them mentality back to the game, or could. I already see a lot of conflict of interest between Luirs and Allanak, so heightening and capitalizing on that seems like an interesting new way to go.
RE: Hunting Branches
While I did see the purpose of the hunting branches, it also seems vastly reduced with Tuluk closed as well. We have to remember it was a different time when Hunting Branches were viable and made sense, had a purpose, etc. The same could be said of Guard Branches in the Nobility. Were they fun? Sometimes. Did they serve a purpose? Sometimes. Do they still serve a purpose in the modern era of ArmageddonMUD, with a smaller player base that is already more spread out? Hard to say. Rather than having them closed off entirely, it would be nice to offer 1-3 roles now and then with minimal support to gauge interest, particularly for clans/groups that have been closed for a while. That would keep things dynamic, rather than having the same set of roles available to play over and over again, particularly with only Allanak being open.
RE: Nostalgia
I agree entirely. Rose tinted glasses are real. The blow-up at Armageddon Reborn could easily be remembered as a shit-show of bashing and eye-rolling, but the honest truth is, it was two things at once. People were scared at losing their game they had fallen in love with, while at the same time excited for the prospect of an entirely new game, with a new history that was even more distant from its roots in Dark Sun. Code was being discussed that was fresh and new and different from Armageddon as it stood. It seemed like more nuance was being written into documentation. An entirely different team of Staff was hired on to work on 2.0. It was exciting, scary, and the player base (for the most part) went along for the ride. Others didn't, and many important Staff members also left around this time. The End of the World Plots were fun, sure, but also high-fantasy and high-magic, and I can see why Staff looks back on that time with less fondness than the player base.
As to the other points:
Muark, sure. I know some people loved them. I never really dug them, and I never really understood the people that were die-hards for them. It felt like a clique of 4-5 players that 'loved' the Muark, while the rest of the player base tolerated their adoration for a densely esoteric tribe that was difficult to deal with. I hadn't really seen much clamoring for bringing them back, but I'm happy that they were reworked and slotted back into the game world.
New D-Elf tribe, as Armaddict pointed out, each tribe is a different flavor. While I've liked interacting with the Two Moons, it seems like a tribe that would have thrived much more during an era when Tuluk was open as well, and their stomping grounds were all over the world. A trading tribe that is under the thumb of one city state will often just become lackeys/cow-tow to that city-state. Not having sides to play off of makes it more stale, on first glance. I certainly don't really have an interest in playing desert elves, but if I did, I would likely want to play a Sun Runner or something of that flavor. Dune Stalkers, for example, may have been another route to go with opening a new (old) tribe, that is more centered around raiding, esoteric magic, and so on. Then again, SLK was closed, so perhaps this wasn't working out for the game.
Gladiators, again as Armaddict said, it became one note after a while. When they were first rolled out, Reigning Gladiators were pretty cool. It was fun to see all the different personalities, wonder who would be the Reigning Champion, see all of their owners roll them out and strut them around town, and have them strut themselves around town. But after a while, the shine and glow wore off, and it became difficult to reconcile how they were meant to be treated virtually, versus how they were treated in actuality. They became mundane, used in plots they likely shouldn't have, used themselves as they likely shouldn't have in those plots, and became I don't know...More dull? Particularly for those players whose only PC was a Gladiator, I felt their pain.
If it were to be done again, I would say that Gladiators in general should be a 2nd PC for a player, and not played often outside of the Arena with exception to arranged RPTs and a sort of 'once a RL week' touting around town. If Tuluk were open, it would be obvious that players in Tuluk should be allowed to have a 2nd PC that is a Gladiator in Allanak, and perhaps even vice versa for Tuluk (They did have an Arena after all).
Power of Mage/Sorcerers, I agree entirely. Full Mages sort of sucked, I know, unpopular opinion, but I am a much bigger fan of the sub-classes, though they are imperfect and not nearly as synergistic as the full version. I've seen Sorcerers with the new paths that are absolutely terrifying, and nowhere near as infallible as they were before. I have no qualms here.
--
As to the coda, I agree, there are things that are happening in the game. Slowly. But happening. Thanks for taking the time to write up your response, and here's to looking forward to the future, and to further changes to this game and hobby we all enjoy/hate.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 21, 2020, 03:39:18 AM
Various good stuff.
Re: Tuluk assessment.
I'd love to see it back. You've been around a long while Addict. You probably remember my initial stint on staff when it was Tuluk-central, with the flood HRPT and Triumvirate meetings, Governors and so on. It was a blast. Do I feel other players had the same level of fun, or more so? Of course I do. I would love to see those players that left because of it's closure come back. Does that mean Tuluk re-opens tomorrow? No. You touched upon some reasoning yourself, in that it's just not that simple. There's no dismissal of the players wanting it, and it isn't some "Throw it in the bin and set fire to it." idea among the staff team. It's constantly being spoken of and on. It's not an answer that's popular, because it doesn't have a black and white outcome for the player base at large to read.
Re: Agents/Luirs
Oh, not discarded at all. I get the allure/want there. I feel that scene needs some reworking, and have said as much among the team. How that plays out, with the over-all theme, we'll have to wait and see. But no, the idea isn't in the waste bin.
Re: Hunting branches (including Spiders, Pariah, SpiceofLife here)
I understand vibe and RP feel for any given PC. I've played a few hunting branch sorts, myself, over the years. The challenge of having these open, same as Tor, Wyverns, Winrothol slavers, etc is that it was - at the time - was inclusion and generated interest. That same 3 Falcon PCs are now 'Indy hunters' supplying Kadius. The new PC and the vet that quit X are sitting in the Gaj and Kadius needs a horror shell (more Salarr, but example) so those 3 include those 2 in the Gaj to make 5, rather than muddy waters of 'Kadius wouldn't want/need untrained grebbers to help'.
Again, I'm asking what was done in these branches that couldn't be done in a formed, inclusive crew? I saw trust/politics. What else? I'm lumping title into "Politics". To spell it out clearly - I am not saying NO! These are never, ever happening again in any way shape or form! I am asking for actual points in their favor that can not be done as is.
Edit: Nevermind.
Quote from: Shabago on September 21, 2020, 11:33:08 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 21, 2020, 03:39:18 AM
Various good stuff.
Re: Hunting branches (including Spiders, Pariah, SpiceofLife here)
I understand vibe and RP feel for any given PC. I've played a few hunting branch sorts, myself, over the years. The challenge of having these open, same as Tor, Wyverns, Winrothol slavers, etc is that it was - at the time - was inclusion and generated interest. That same 3 Falcon PCs are now 'Indy hunters' supplying Kadius. The new PC and the vet that quit X are sitting in the Gaj and Kadius needs a horror shell (more Salarr, but example) so those 3 include those 2 in the Gaj to make 5, rather than muddy waters of 'Kadius wouldn't want/need untrained grebbers to help'.
Again, I'm asking what was done in these branches that couldn't be done in a formed, inclusive crew? I saw trust/politics. What else? I'm lumping title into "Politics". To spell it out clearly - I am not saying NO! These are never, ever happening again in any way shape or form! I am asking for actual points in their favor that can not be done as is.
One thing to consider is that some players are alpha personalities, some are more beta.. Running an independent hunting crew requires an alpha role to lead the crew, build relationships, hire members, etc which tends to mean a lot more hats (and probably time) to keep the crew active/going. Your essentially operating an indi hunting company.
Where a beta type of person can do fine as a "hunting crew leader" role since your agents and Sr. clan members take on the alpha role. Therefore a clan hunting leader can be more focused on great hunting execution/training and not have to wear all the other hats that an alpha role running an indi hunting company has to wear.. Its a lot of work to run an indi company consistently.
my 2 sids...
Also, The Two Moons is a tribe focused on the South. Their entire trade and all materials are made of animals in the South. The tribe should stay to the South.
The reason it doesn't do so well is because the documents are vague. We don't even know why they worship the moons or really any rituals with it. It's not specified. Others who have played Two Moons with me know the feeling.
I like having a tribe focused in the South. It makes them different from all other tribes.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Two Moons. I think they mostly suffer from bad advertising. If I had only read the help file, I wouldn't be very interested in playing one. I ended up having a shitload of fun there, though. They're nowhere near as isolated as any of the other tribes, they get to go wherever, they don't limit your choice of class or subclass. They can easily connect to city elves.
The lack of access to certain resources is a problem. This was initially an oversight, but never got fixed as far as I know. Grinding out coin for that is not my idea of fun, neither is waiting around and hoping that a small PC will show up (how does a hole that fits a dwarf, but not a skinny elf make sense anyway? The dwarf has way wider shoulders...), but that's relatively minor.
Quote from: Gentleboy on September 21, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
The reason it doesn't do so well is because the documents are vague. We don't even know why they worship the moons or really any rituals with it.
Where did you get the idea that they worship the moons in the first place? They're pragmatic af, I don't see them worshipping much of anything. I remember using the moons as omens, but that's about it.
Quote from: Nao on September 21, 2020, 12:34:27 PM
Grinding out coin for that is not my idea of fun, neither is waiting around and hoping that a small PC will show up (how does a hole that fits a dwarf, but not a skinny elf make sense anyway? The dwarf has way wider shoulders...), but that's relatively minor.
Bahaha spoken like someone who has played a Two Moons. It is silly, and seems minor, but is a valid grievance... size restriction code in caves has always been annoying, but it is acutely annoying in this circumstance.
On Two Moons:
I think I played one? But I don't recall if I did it was such a short lived character it didn't matter.
But I have interacted with them on most characters because you really can't help but interact with them playing an outdoor character and that's pretty much all I do.
I love them, and here is why, they act like a tribe of desert elves. For the most part they don't give a fuck about coins from my experience. They want items that help the tribe/crafting items. I've actually had interactions where I offered coin for X and they are like, Ok...X amount, but I'd prefer Y thing instead.
I've been saved by them after falling into the huge hole near the fortress, and actually had a very long lived character after that which wouldn't have happened if they weren't there to guide me out and give me my second lease on (that) life.
I feel bad for them though because their chances of interaction are probably very slim and far between. But I have no complaints about the Two Moon at all.
Ahem.
I really don't think this was supposed to be a rail on two moons thing as much as a statement that people not queuing up around the corner to play them doesn't make their existence a loss. Plentiful roles of large variety throughout the game do not always have to be chock full of people for the option to play them to be worth it, and that's kind of the mentality I'm disagreeing with vehemently. 10 people in the byn versus 5 in the byn, 2 in oashi elite, 2 in tor, and 1 in borsail, I'll choose the latter if only because there's a lot more dynamics going on -between- the RPT's by nature of conflicting goals.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 21, 2020, 01:21:12 PM
Ahem.
I really don't think this was supposed to be a rail on two moons thing as much as a statement that people not queuing up around the corner to play them doesn't make their existence a loss. Plentiful roles of large variety throughout the game do not always have to be chock full of people for the option to play them to be worth it, and that's kind of the mentality I'm disagreeing with vehemently. 10 people in the byn versus 5 in the byn, 2 in oashi elite, 2 in tor, and 1 in borsail, I'll choose the latter if only because there's a lot more dynamics going on -between- the RPT's by nature of conflicting goals.
Agree 100%. I don't think a clan/tribe's popularity by how many people they have in them at any given time makes them better/worse than other options. It just so happens that X amount of people are playing in it at that time. It's part of why I think there should be random one off's for things like the Oashi Elite or even SLK, with the latter coming with a memo that it will be very ISO most of the time. Or, to allow players to come up with concepts, and even if the clan is closed, if there's a way to work them in, to work them in.
Part of why Allanak isn't my favorite place to play is the amount of roles or lifestyles I can choose from is finite, and I've done most of them already. So it feels like a re-hash. Part of why Tuluk v Allanak was a good balance wasn't because people in Allanak would interact with Tuluki often, it was that when I/someone dies, they can jump to the other side for a completely fresh perspective and dust off the cobwebs. When I play in or around Allanak now, my next PC is almost certainly some indie/abroad/Tuluki out of Morins/tribal, because I just plain don't want to run into the same long-lived PCs again. I give it about 3 months or longer, and then consider it OK to play in Allanak again. That is of course my prerogative, and doesn't necessarily point out there being something wrong with Allanak itself, but I don't think I'm alone in that viewpoint.
I suppose along those lines, opening up more niche roles in Allanaki society doesn't necessarily address that issue. But having different options might be appealing enough to try something different/new in Allanak despite that hangup.
Hard to say.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 21, 2020, 01:21:12 PM
Ahem.
I really don't think this was supposed to be a rail on two moons thing as much as a statement that people not queuing up around the corner to play them doesn't make their existence a loss. Plentiful roles of large variety throughout the game do not always have to be chock full of people for the option to play them to be worth it, and that's kind of the mentality I'm disagreeing with vehemently. 10 people in the byn versus 5 in the byn, 2 in oashi elite, 2 in tor, and 1 in borsail, I'll choose the latter if only because there's a lot more dynamics going on -between- the RPT's by nature of conflicting goals.
If you're saying that you'd rather there be many choices of clan/playstyle despite having lots of people in the clan. I agree. I personally think that most Noble houses and organizations should allow player involvement.
I think that having a plethora of options is always good for playing the game.
However, if they aren't going to open up those clans/houses etc. I think the current spread of orgs is too far spread, which is why I said Consolidation may be needed.
If you have 30 roleplaying opportunities split between Allanak, Luirs and Morins, I say leave it be. But when there is simply Kurac and Garrison in Luirs and everything else in Allanak, it feels spread too thing to me. Just my feeling.
QuoteIf you have 30 roleplaying opportunities split between Allanak, Luirs and Morins, I say leave it be. But when there is simply Kurac and Garrison in Luirs and everything else in Allanak, it feels spread too thing to me. Just my feeling.
To elaborate...I don't like isolation. At least not to a certain degree. But I favor a variety of roles available (not always filled) that are in close proximity to each other economically, politically, socially, or militarily. It can be frustrating as a leader when things are this way, because you want more people to be able to do more things, but on the converse side, you have all the people you need, but just a lot less that feels meaningful to do. It's a delicate balance that often sways one side to the other, and my personal stance is that leaning towards more clans and the roles within them leads to more player-checklists as far as things to do.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 21, 2020, 01:37:03 PM
QuoteIf you have 30 roleplaying opportunities split between Allanak, Luirs and Morins, I say leave it be. But when there is simply Kurac and Garrison in Luirs and everything else in Allanak, it feels spread too thing to me. Just my feeling.
To elaborate...I don't like isolation. At least not to a certain degree. But I favor a variety of roles available (not always filled) that are in close proximity to each other economically, politically, socially, or militarily. It can be frustrating as a leader when things are this way, because you want more people to be able to do more things, but on the converse side, you have all the people you need, but just a lot less that feels meaningful to do. It's a delicate balance that often sways one side to the other, and my personal stance is that leaning towards more clans and the roles within them leads to more player-checklists as far as things to do.
The flip side to this and something to consider is Active versus Passive Role Calls.
So, currently, a vacancy is made and then filled. A Kuraci/Kadian/Borsail dies or stores, and then a new one is called for, applications are filed, and then an applicant is chosen, rinse and repeat.
A system that had 'Passive Role Opportunities' would describe positions that might be held in various locations, that would slot in well with current players or plots, and could even include things like peak versus off-peak playtimes recommended, may be isolated, high social role, etc.
Examples might be:
Allanak -- Current Recommended Roles Available --
1. (Ongoing) Student in the Atrium - Application not required, can be sought out IG, race human required - Recently re-opened, active leadership - High political/social role, not restrictive, can lead to opportunities as an aide to a Noble or a better understanding of Allanaki politics. Peak and Off-peak playtimes.
2. (One Spot Available) Bastard of House Oash - Application required, submit though the request tool - Race human required - Serve as an unrecognized bastard within House Oash. Background can be discussed with Staff.
3. (Ongoing) Criminal - Any race, elf and human recommended - Whether it be the Eastside or Westside of the Labyrinth, leadership is active and plots are brewing. Create a crime-oriented character today and jump into the action.
Just a thought.
That's a very structured way of doing it, which is certainly not bad at all. I generally just refer to it as an open world, where I create a character without something in mind and get slapped in the face by opportunities until one kinda just...'sits well' with the character. I've never thought of that as high maintenance, but it certainly could be without my knowledge.
As is, this approach pretty much leads to the same opportunities with each character. Again, disclaimer of me not being entirely current with the game, my exposure comes through discussions that I still watch.
[quote author=HeeBeeGB link=topic=56084.msg1052383#msg1052383
Examples might be:
Allanak -- Current Recommended Roles Available --
1. (Ongoing) Student in the Atrium - Application not required, can be sought out IG, race human required - Recently re-opened, active leadership - High political/social role, not restrictive, can lead to opportunities as an aide to a Noble or a better understanding of Allanaki politics. Peak and Off-peak playtimes.
2. (One Spot Available) Bastard of House Oash - Application required, submit though the request tool - Race human required - Serve as an unrecognized bastard within House Oash. Background can be discussed with Staff.
3. (Ongoing) Criminal - Any race, elf and human recommended - Whether it be the Eastside or Westside of the Labyrinth, leadership is active and plots are brewing. Create a crime-oriented character today and jump into the action.
Just a thought.
[/quote]
I like it. A few other muds have done stuff like this in the past, sorta like starter roles available to anyone who wanted to base a character around them or go for them.
I mean we could sorta do something like this with rumor boards, but it would be totally unvetted that way with no staff involvement and that gets iffy if there is clanning required.
While Shabago has given you his perspective, understand that Staff tend to live in this dual perspective environment. We tend to have our personal perspective and we tend to have this perspective that grows over our time on Staff, and while I wouldn't say it is typically as formal as a defined position, it is a viewpoint that informs decision making as Staff.
This changes over time and is reflective of the people making up Staff. Currently we are in the hiring process and I expect and influx of new Staff members soon. I absolutely expect that this will create a two-way street situation, where Staff position is influenced by these new arrivals and Staff perspective informs their own viewpoints. That is a process that takes a little time to play out. It also makes me a little hesitant to post anything more than personal opinion right now, as I expect some of these issues are near and dear to some people that will soon be on Staff.
My personal perspective is that over a very long span of time it has become very easy to be an independent. In the last several years, Luirs was made much more easy to be an independent in, perhaps to the detriment of players basing themselves in other locations. When talking about opening up roles, what is really be talking about is typically clan based roles. I don't know in the current situation if them simply being open would be enough to entice people away from being independents.
The biggest enabler to being an independent is, IMHO, apartments. Certainly we have seen what the introduction of apartments has done to dynamic of Luirs. I think if we severely restricted or removed apartments it might make more sense if some roles opened up. The trend for a number of years has been the opposite, roles closed for various reasons (btw, one reason for closing GMH hunters was precisely loyalty with very low risk of betrayal) and apartments made more plentiful. To a certain extent this has loosened some the shackles that kept people in Allanak/Tuluk and made Luirs/Storm more capable of supporting player populations.
That is just where we are now. While it is unlikely we are going to ever roll back the clock and go back to the way it was when [insert favored period of Armageddon], it is also unlikely the current dynamic won't change over time, either.
On the subject of Apartments...
Have they changed? Because back when I used to use them, they were just areas to get murdered, or have some elf (assuming) rob everything including your furniture from it within a week?
Have they bumped up security? Are they just murder dens still? Did they eliminate the burglars robbing you blind after you paid 500 sid for a month?
Apartments are complex. I agree with the assessment that making it easier (or even, too easy) for Indies has been a shift in recent years. I think that mostly revolves around the code of things...Without schedules or city restrictions, they can train more, take down game more, skin more, get more stuff, sell more stuff, make more money, have better access to apartments, be around more if they have the OOC time, and basically 'git gud' quicker than more restrictive clan roles.
Ways I see helping to address that in Luirs (as an example):
-Do away with first come, first serve for the most desirable apartments. Perhaps you need to actually plot/shmooze to get those apartments from Council members or the GMH in general, similar to warehouse spaces.
-Allow for people with more prominent status to kick out people who are just nobody hunters with a lot of money. Soandso who works for Salarr wants an apartment in Luirs? Alright, get rid of Hunter X from Morin's Village. Sorry Bub, you don't got staying power.
-Reduce the amount that people can store in apartments.
-Increase the decay rate on items in general. Not to the point of non-usability, but chests filled with plants not going bad, armor that stays in mint condition, and weapons that never break I think plays a role in this hoarder mentality.
I think the apartment complexes that have more communal hang-out/cook-spots are cooler than the ones where they are bolt-holes to either murder someone or have sex with them or store all your nice fancy things. I always liked the apartments off Poet's Circle because of the balconies, though from what I gather the Gaj ones with a similar layout are sort of useless (too easy to break into).
Apartments are tough. I do think they serve a purpose, but I'm not sure that is the purpose they are being used for. There should be limited storage and privacy for most Commoners. Higher end apartments should be less available to the rank and file, and come with better security and storage. Highest end apartments should only be available to elite commoners, and come with more storage and security. But I don't think that's how it currently plays out.
Also things like picking locks not ticking crime code, or even murdering people in apartments having a chance of ticking crime code, play into their sludgy sort of status right now.
I think consolidation has always worked better with a carrot than with a stick. You tend to see consolidation when things that have been closed for a while open up, or when something new is put into the game and people want to explore it. Sometimes interest tapers off and it gets closed again. So what? The fact that people stopped being interested for a while and it got closed doesn't mean that it being open was a failure, or that people didn't have fun doing it while it was bopping along, or that it will never be back again.
Or better yet, you see consolidation when new things come around, when areas have something shiny and new or are made more attractive. Things are open for a while, and then they get closed when there's a lack of interest, and then they open up when there's interest again. You also see consolidation when you've got a couple cool characters that make it longer than a week playing in an area, and other people run across them, have fun, and stick around. People just cycle around the game, and it's better to draw them places than beat them away from other places with sticks.
I was one of those people who was really against closing Tuluk because I liked having options of places to play, and I hate playing around the same characters on multiple characters. Nothing ruins an experience for me like running across people I used to know and knowing a bunch of their history and secrets. Maybe I don't have enough of an IC/OOC barrier, I don't know. These days, I avoid that mostly by playing for a while and then taking a break for a while to play some other game until I can't remember jack all about this game and who's where in it, so it doesn't really bother me as much anyway.
But, hey, these days I'm on team Close Allanak Too, so we can see an actual rugged desert survival game without all the sponsored roles and 'mother may I.' The only thing that ever really, consistently bums me out about this game is the glass ceiling and how easily my enjoyment of a character can be ruined by something silly because The Pillar of the Virtual World is Massive and Unchanging. I love most of the people on staff. There's so much good will toward the game and creative energy in just about every staffer I've known. I wish they got to throw that creative energy into making new things rather than answering mail and telling us kids 'no' all the time. But anything new going into the game has to be established and then staffed, all while the existing staff seems to get dragged down and overwhelmed with answering mail, because we need to ask our parents to do anything, and they get bummed out at telling us no too. Because The Virtual World is nine miles high and if you murder that Nenyuk oh boy they're gonna get mad and destroy House Kurac and then ... something.
I say, maybe it would be nice. We could have a nice RPT where House Kurac gets thrown on a nice little bonfire and then get to see the rise of House Kawaii and their fire kanks! And then maybe they would burn their own house down and we could get something else. And people would probably want to be around for that, because it would be something shiny and new and a big deal.
Thank you for attending my rambling ted talk. tldr; Consolidation Carrot beats Consolidation Stick. Please enjoy this gif:
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/3d1c353e54d0afd700256b53cc653e9d/tenor.gif?itemid=5042503)
Quote from: valeria on September 21, 2020, 06:10:43 PM
But, hey, these days I'm on team Close Allanak Too, so we can see an actual rugged desert survival game without all the sponsored roles and 'mother may I.' The only thing that ever really, consistently bums me out about this game is the glass ceiling and how easily my enjoyment of a character can be ruined by something silly because The Pillar of the Virtual World is Massive and Unchanging. I love most of the people on staff. There's so much good will toward the game and creative energy in just about every staffer I've known. I wish they got to throw that creative energy into making new things rather than answering mail and telling us kids 'no' all the time. But anything new going into the game has to be established and then staffed, all while the existing staff seems to get dragged down and overwhelmed with answering mail, because we need to ask our parents to do anything, and they get bummed out at telling us no too. Because The Virtual World is nine miles high and if you murder that Nenyuk oh boy they're gonna get mad and destroy House Kurac and then ... something.
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I've always wanted to try an experiment where staff just close all upper echelon roles for like a month. People currently in those roles get temporarily stored and can make a new character for the month, but go back to their old one after the experiment.
Maybe this would be closing Allanak for a month while simultaneously running some big political event amongst the outlying regions. Maybe you keep Allanak open, but now suddenly the important PCs are the aides (to NPC nobles) or sergeants or house members. This would work to compress the social structure down so that everyone could interact with everyone else socially. Then you just sit back and see what happens.
Just to see how the game runs when all the more isolated roles are NPCs. Maybe it crashes and burns, but it's just for a month or so. And there's always the possibility that the game suddenly boosts massively in population.
Quote from: ShabagoAgain, I'm asking what was done in these branches that couldn't be done in a formed, inclusive crew? I saw trust/politics. What else? I'm lumping title into "Politics". To spell it out clearly - I am not saying NO! These are never, ever happening again in any way shape or form! I am asking for actual points in their favor that can not be done as is.
It's like asking what the difference is between selling homegrown produce at the side of the road and working in Walmart's produce section. While they fundamentally have something in common, they're completely different experiences. I must admit that your asking why people care whether their hunters are employed by one of the Great Merchant Houses of Zalanthas or merely part of some tiny crew (or completely alone in the world) is... strange. The answer is obvious. The question shouldn't even need to be asked.
What's the difference between playing an indepedent nobody who happens to have a heavy_combat class, and a member of the Allanaki army? What's the difference between playing some random unaffiliated pickpocket and a member of the Guild? What's the difference between playing a tribal in a virtual made-up tribe with no other real members and a tribesman of the Tan Muark? These are the same question as the one you asked.
The hunter experience on its own is not that exciting, to be perfectly honest. Once you're familiar with the gameworld, there aren't really any surprises left. With just a bit of skill under your belt, you can overcome 95% of the threats out there. But when you work for a GMH, you're so much more than a dude who rides out and kills animals. You're a ground-level operative for a corporation whose influence spans the world. You might be tasked with anything from soldier-like duties to assassination schemes.
When you play an indie hunter in today's Armageddon, the onus is entirely on you to turn the role into something other than a mindless slayer of NPC animals. Some make that work, but I think it's clear by now that many don't, because there's just not a whole lot to work with out there. You rarely meet anyone, and when you do, you're just some random hunter that noone's likely to care a whole lot about. You can spend RL days camping out in any given area and experience nothing more than the built-in threats of the gameworld, which are easily overcome if you've been through it before.
But in the past, GMH hunters were - to some extent - special agents for the company. Whether or not that's thematically correct, they were. You weren't merely asked to go kill this and that animal and bring back its hide, you were the people who went out and got shit done. You looked after the interests of the House. Maybe the role should have been rebranded from mere "hunter" to something more suitable, but the fact remains that Armed Agent of the House was the role they played at least for Kadius and Salarr (Kurac had their own actual division for that purpose), and it worked very well, lending these clans so much more nuance than they have today where really all they do is sell shirts and swords.
Quote from: Greve on September 21, 2020, 08:18:11 PM
Quote from: ShabagoAgain, I'm asking what was done in these branches that couldn't be done in a formed, inclusive crew? I saw trust/politics. What else? I'm lumping title into "Politics". To spell it out clearly - I am not saying NO! These are never, ever happening again in any way shape or form! I am asking for actual points in their favor that can not be done as is.
[ . . . a well reasoned response . . . ]
Sometimes I feel like there are fewer and fewer things left for me to care about in this game, but House Hunting is one of those things that still appeals to me, and I've noticed it's one of those few topics that get not only old players excited but it gets new players who have never experienced it excited.
If I could emphasize anything besides what Greve's post already said perfectly, we are lacking two things since House hunting has been removed:
- The opportunity for new hunter PCs to develop skills and expertise
- The opportunity for hunter PCs to gain rank and prestige
If anyone says something like, "But Hunters can join the Byn for rank, then leave to be a hunter," sure, that's POSSIBLY equivalent from a lame "I only think about skill gainz" perspective, but from a roleplay perspective it's completely different, and completely inadequate compared to the House hunter experience. I don't care how harsh Zalanthas is -- not everyone is fine with the life of a Mercenary and what it entails, such as fighting Gith or killing other humanoids. Some human beings, shockingly enough, aren't psychopathic or sociopathic enough to be able to turn a weapon against another humanoid, but they might be able to turn their weapons against beasts for the sake survival or the distinct love of hunting. Current options for indie hunters starting out are to [1] possibly break character and be a mercenary for a second just because it's the only playable option for raising your skills if you want to hunt later and [2] skill up by hunting alone, which is viable for veteran players, dangerous for new players, and devoid of social RP for all players. Lastly, if the new player goes for the "I am a hunter but have to join the Byn because there are fuck all options," they are going to find that they're never going to have the opportunity to practice skinning, the hunt skill, etc, because it's in their Sergeant's interests to speed ride from point A to B. I don't even know
how new players learn to hunt, beyond the rare encounter with a helpful indie hunter: I've gotten messages from new players thanking me for "showing them how to explore and play the game," simply because they were lucky enough to meet me an have me take them under my wing as a hunter. If this is what it took to retain these new players, then we MUST open House Hunters so that new players can reliably learn to hunt. Because their options now are [1] join the Byn (sucks) [2] Hunt alone and probably die (sucks) [3] By great luck meet an indie hunter with the patience to show you the game of hunting (rare).
Lastly, there is the matter of rank and prestige. I've seen some Kurac PCs try to nurture their hunters and fill the void left by the closure of House Hunters, but there is still no chance for advancement. As a hunter you might walk around with pride as being Salarr's best hunter, but what benefits does that get you? Absolutely nothing by design. You might be the best Hunter a House has, but you're left standing on the street begging for time to get an audience in the House you hunt for; you are left begging like a stinking beggar, you are not able to walk in proudly with your kill and set it down for all the house servants to see, because you basically are a nature-murder-hobo, an indie hunter, a scrub -- why you are left being an indie scrub, the documents do not say or support, but you are -- you're never going to get rank or respect so you might as well just embrace it and greb shit on the side or something.
Again, my issue with talking about GMH Hunters in this thread is that it sends people to the North. There's better hunting in the North and anyone who hunts in the South is just a grebber who happens to need to kill a scrab or see a Chalton.
If there were more creatures around Allanak I think that the GMH Hunters would be valid to talk about here, but, I think hunting is something people do around Luir's mostly.
An interesting thought as far as the apartments, Brokkr. I actually just had the idea that maybe my assumption that the stealthy complaints that have come about aren't because of the consolidation of pickpocket/burglar into the same class, but because...well...people have a lot of junk to lose. Could be either/or, could be both, could be a bunch of things, but that was a thought. A random thought. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Carry on.
I feel like this has been brought up before. It would seem to be reinforced by ideas such as the 'where' command...people are in their private space, and want to be able to check and see if things are happening elsewhere without actually having to leave. But at the same time, people are actively searching for interaction, it seems, so being locked up behind a door wouldn't make much sense in that pursuit...
Do -you- have ideas of how to restrict apartments? Perhaps in some way that would make the pursuit of a warehouse in an indy group more desirable, giving more reason to 'group up' than remain truly indy? If that's the case, then some of the restrictions on the MMH/Warehouse-group setup might be in order. I can't really think of a reasonable way to do it aside from maybe make them unable to hold so damn much. xD
Just a thought, but I don't think making apartments in Luirs worse is a great way to make Allanak better. I'd really love to see something that improved Allanak rather than a nerf elsewhere. (Or just shift the staff focus away from Allanak and leave it like Morin's for a while. Follow the players instead of forcing us to come to you)
Quote from: Armaddict on September 22, 2020, 11:28:24 AM
Do -you- have ideas of how to restrict apartments?
I could easily make it so that you had to be in the Garrison or one of the GMH in order to be able to rent an apartment in Luirs at all. What I have seen is that as apartments were added, and then more apartments, to Luirs, more people based Independent characters out of Luirs. It is more of an observation that things like this can have an affect on where people play, and thus which areas of the game are happening and which are not.
I am going to dare and share my thought. And this is in no way pointed to anyone and their play, because I do not know how or what all everyone does. But I feel to make any City, Village or clan better! We has players need to roleplay and flesh out plots and things icly more. Yes this is a MDC game, but lets flesh it out more like back in the day. In saying this my idea of that is slow down and plot your actions icly. Find a reason icly to really want to murder Bobby Jo and his cousin that may or may not be in your clan or play area. Lets give more depth in each others characters other then simply I am making a raider to kill long lived ones, If you are templars or powerful roles be imposing be as docs say you are. But remember if you just are walking around to murder the lessors then people ARE going to avoid that area and play. Again I am not judging and pointing fingers at us completely, I am saying just remember before you act think is it worth it to you and the other players around you.
Quote from: Brokkr on September 22, 2020, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 22, 2020, 11:28:24 AM
Do -you- have ideas of how to restrict apartments?
I could easily make it so that you had to be in the Garrison or one of the GMH in order to be able to rent an apartment in Luirs at all. What I have seen is that as apartments were added, and then more apartments, to Luirs, more people based Independent characters out of Luirs. It is more of an observation that things like this can have an affect on where people play, and thus which areas of the game are happening and which are not.
I think also (along these lines) a new clan(s) could be made that define social strata in both Allanak and Luirs, and are recruited into by Nobles and Templars for Allanak, and GMH Council members for Luirs. Though not this in name (Couldn't think of anything off the top of my head), in title/practice it would be 'Middle Class'. It could grant you privileges to certain apartment complexes and/or parts of the city/outpost, or even certain shops that only sell to your strata and higher.
How does one become Middle Class? You're either born into it, or you bribe your way into it, and the haves decide if you're worthy. It would require plotting, meeting with Nobles/Templars/GMH Council to make your case and be of use to them in some way.
Examples I could see are the Arboretum in Allanak, so it is more clearly defined who are the haves and the have nots and who has access, right now it's pretty vague. Welen's Fineries would be another example, where they don't sell to have-nots, regardless of how much coin they might have from Indy Hunting. Examples in Luirs might be the apartment complexes in the west that are more desirable and currently taken by long lived PCs, and snatched up on a first come first serve basis. Instead, they would only be available to those who are of this new strata, defined by the GMH Council. Examples of shops might be trickier in Luirs, as it is a Trading Outpost, and doesn't really have 'high end' shops in the same way Allanak does.
It is a privilege that could be taken away by those same people (even different Nobles/Templars) which creates more friction between factions and who is on your good/bad side. GMH Family Members might be born into it, whereas commoner GMH that are just coming up through the ranks are not, providing further difference between the two. It could be something that is purchased with 1 karma at CharGen, so if you want to play a more well-to-do Merchant/Son of Merchant/Daughter of Merchant etc, it would be possible out of the gates, and maybe comes with something like Cavilish.
I'm not sure how it would be denoted. A token that could be worn, similar to the Allanaki Mercantile token? Tattoos aren't used much outside of Tuluk for denoting things at a glance, so I imagine it would be a worn piece of equipment.
Random thoughts:
Apartments: Remove them entirely, give GMH compounds apartments instead of barracks, make it so you have to be clanned to get a deep discount on heavily marked up unclanned apartment pricing, keep them as they are but raise the cost some.
Workshops: Turn apartments into workshops that are save rooms, but you can't quit out in them, with worktables and basic storage. These are not warehouses that are player clan achievement, and thus are easy to break into, expensive in relation to use, and not very big.
GMH: Remove hiring caps, but institute population caps, requiring there to be a certain number representing each "civilization center" you're doing business out of.
Council: It's horrible and one of the worst things I ever participated in when it came to getting frustrated due to lack of structure.
GMH2: Again. Have leadership designated to Luirs to focus on Luirs and the Luirs council, garrison, tribals...and one designated to Allanak and all the political mess that goes on there. For one person solo, it's like juggling knives, it can turn into the worst part time job ever, really fast, and the lack of consistent presence makes it URGENT for Templars and Nobles to abuse someone they don't see often.
Quote from: Spiderman on September 22, 2020, 04:13:07 PM
Random thoughts:
Apartments: Remove them entirely, give GMH compounds apartments instead of barracks, make it so you have to be clanned to get a deep discount on heavily marked up unclanned apartment pricing, keep them as they are but raise the cost some.
Workshops: Turn apartments into workshops that are save rooms, but you can't quit out in them, with worktables and basic storage. These are not warehouses that are player clan achievement, and thus are easy to break into, expensive in relation to use, and not very big.
GMH: Remove hiring caps, but institute population caps, requiring there to be a certain number representing each "civilization center" you're doing business out of.
Council: It's horrible and one of the worst things I ever participated in when it came to getting frustrated due to lack of structure.
GMH2: Again. Have leadership designated to Luirs to focus on Luirs and the Luirs council, garrison, tribals...and one designated to Allanak and all the political mess that goes on there. For one person solo, it's like juggling knives, it can turn into the worst part time job ever, really fast, and the lack of consistent presence makes it URGENT for Templars and Nobles to abuse someone they don't see often.
These are all intriguing to me, and would like to hear other people's pros/cons on them.
I think it's been pretty standard and almost required in most MMORPGs over the past 10 years is Player Housing.
But, you can look at the failures of other games' implementations and try not to duplicate them.
In my experience of World of Warcraft:
a) everything can be completed within the player housing. (skill increases, item trading, item gathering)
b) community chat was enabled in the player housing. (Trade chat was enabled)
c) nobody could enter the player housing without permission.
d) Incentives to stay within the player housing. (Currency Making and Daily Quests were available)
What happened was that the players would stay in their housing, and they wouldn't come out and be social with other players. There was very little incentive to leave besides the weekly "raid" dungeon content. And in the next expansion they changed it up:
a) quests were enabled, but gathering resources were turned off.
b) community chat was enabled
c) player housing was forcefully shared with other players, but PVP was turned off.
d) and they introduced a centralized hub for players to return to get their "bank" items.
And it seemed to create more of a community setting - because certain tasks were turned off and certain tasks still continued.
In terms of ArmageddonMUD, I would put forth that warehouse / storage locations are not "quit" rooms - force the players to leave to stop playing the game.
I would put in restrictions to the max weight of the room for independants, because their warehouses are smaller than the merchant houses. I think a gradual increase in warehouse capacity would be a goal for a character going through the player created clan process.
My thoughts in bold.
Quote from: Spiderman on September 22, 2020, 04:13:07 PM
Random thoughts:
Apartments: Remove them entirely, give GMH compounds apartments instead of barracks, make it so you have to be clanned to get a deep discount on heavily marked up unclanned apartment pricing, keep them as they are but raise the cost some.
Yes, this would give GMH folks something else to do, and keep things proper with the social strata. As it is now I can be the salt baron of Allanak, make thousands upon thousands of sids and live in the nicest apartments a commoner can buy. Is that bad? Nah but I don't think it fits with the whole oppression theme.
Workshops: Turn apartments into workshops that are save rooms, but you can't quit out in them, with worktables and basic storage. These are not warehouses that are player clan achievement, and thus are easy to break into, expensive in relation to use, and not very big.
GMH: Remove hiring caps, but institute population caps, requiring there to be a certain number representing each "civilization center" you're doing business out of.
Yes, this was one of the nice things about old school GMH, you could transfer between Tuluk and Allanak for a change of flavor.
Council: It's horrible and one of the worst things I ever participated in when it came to getting frustrated due to lack of structure.
I have no idea, but from everything I hear and read about it on this forum, it's a shitshow.
GMH2: Again. Have leadership designated to Luirs to focus on Luirs and the Luirs council, garrison, tribals...and one designated to Allanak and all the political mess that goes on there. For one person solo, it's like juggling knives, it can turn into the worst part time job ever, really fast, and the lack of consistent presence makes it URGENT for Templars and Nobles to abuse someone they don't see often.
Agreed
Quote from: Brokkr on September 21, 2020, 02:11:12 PM
The biggest enabler to being an independent is, IMHO, apartments. Certainly we have seen what the introduction of apartments has done to dynamic of Luirs. I think if we severely restricted or removed apartments it might make more sense if some roles opened up. The trend for a number of years has been the opposite, roles closed for various reasons (btw, one reason for closing GMH hunters was precisely loyalty with very low risk of betrayal) and apartments made more plentiful. To a certain extent this has loosened some the shackles that kept people in Allanak/Tuluk and made Luirs/Storm more capable of supporting player populations.
Being in a clan, is almost by default significantly easier than being independent. Allanak, still has far more apartment options than Luirs. And the new ones opened in Luirs are tiny, with a myriad of limitations. Luirs was without access to easy and plentiful water and I imagine the shift was still away from Allanak. Changes were made to make it more difficult to run away from mobs. From what I can tell a lot of things seem to have been done to make it more difficult to survive independently.
Allanak has better apartments, and more of them. How is this conceivably the problem? The problems are the underlying issues with Allanak. Impossible to oppose powers, rampant theft with no counter, inactive role calls. It seems unrealistic to say opening six rooms up to individual player use was such a miraculous change it managed to kill Allanak. The shift had been happening before this. People were waiting real life years to get ahold of apartments, and still not playing in Allanak.
I agree that apartments are not the problem. Was dismayed hearing that they were. I know my usage, my rp and play to even get one...and it is an ending and beginning spot for me, not a hole I sit in. Give more things for folks to sink their coin into, if worried hunters have to much. But know...everyone's story is different, and does not always fit into the stereotype, suggested.
I think that may be kind of the point that's being made, as far as the Luir's apartments. They're not just apartments, they're bases. Luir's is not a criminal friendly place, there is no 'criminal hangout' there, and so they also become invariably safer bases, as was mentioned earlier. The opening of apartments that were just all around better and as available made it...easier to play an indy based out of an apartment in luir's. You guys are just reinforcing the statement, not refuting it. Why -wouldn't- you go there, when the option is just all out better?
You don't have to agree with it, that's not what I'm saying. But I do think that the statement is pretty much saying 'We made Luir's too appealing to indies' or something along those lines, so that there weren't a lot of tradeoffs for being there the way that other places have tradeoffs. Think of it in terms of buffs and nerfs...sometimes you unintentionally buff something too much, and the solution isn't always going to be to buff everything else to bring it up to its level. Sometimes it's a 'whoa, tone that down' scenario.
I don't know much about the Garrison/Luir's in its current state. Does it make sense for them to make living space in the post a house dominant thing? Is Luir's specifically for indies and tribals to -trade- in, or do they live there just as much?
Fair enough, but what do characters get when joining a house, noble or merchant? A place to put stuff. Food. Water.
That's very appealing. But the idea that apartments should be only for those that are in ..a clan that supplies that already, more actually, seems to be targeting something unnecessarily.
Quote from: ShaiHulud on September 23, 2020, 01:20:47 AM
Fair enough, but what do characters get when joining a house, noble or merchant? A place to put stuff. Food. Water.
That's very appealing. But the idea that apartments should be only for those that are in ..a clan that supplies that already, more actually, seems to be targeting something unnecessarily.
That's actually why I'm asking about the nature of the Garrison and modern-day luir's. Old Luir's didn't really emphasize real 'living space' that much. But it did have a market. It had a lot of barracks. It had a couple select buildings for housing, but they were 'posh' and meant for agents if I recall. If that's the sort of culture of the place, then it would make sense on an IC level. People don't live there, they work there or trade there. The people who work there, they have space. But most people going through are passing through or on a temporary stay.
I say the above not with certainty, but as a theoretical. In that theoretical, it would make sense to have housing restricted to merchant houses in Luir's, making it a good place for indies to hunker down and trade, but not establish a base out of it. Indies would be transitory, known faces by the workers when they come through consistently, but not a 'resident' of Luir's. And I can totally see that making sense.
Can anyone clarify whether or not Luir's has the culture of an actual living space versus the trade hub and checkpoint that it used to be under Kurac's fist?
Quote from: Armaddict on September 23, 2020, 02:01:54 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on September 23, 2020, 01:20:47 AM
Fair enough, but what do characters get when joining a house, noble or merchant? A place to put stuff. Food. Water.
That's very appealing. But the idea that apartments should be only for those that are in ..a clan that supplies that already, more actually, seems to be targeting something unnecessarily.
That's actually why I'm asking about the nature of the Garrison and modern-day luir's. Old Luir's didn't really emphasize real 'living space' that much. But it did have a market. It had a lot of barracks. It had a couple select buildings for housing, but they were 'posh' and meant for agents if I recall. If that's the sort of culture of the place, then it would make sense on an IC level. People don't live there, they work there or trade there. The people who work there, they have space. But most people going through are passing through or on a temporary stay.
I say the above not with certainty, but as a theoretical. In that theoretical, it would make sense to have housing restricted to merchant houses in Luir's, making it a good place for indies to hunker down and trade, but not establish a base out of it. Indies would be transitory, known faces by the workers when they come through consistently, but not a 'resident' of Luir's. And I can totally see that making sense.
Can anyone clarify whether or not Luir's has the culture of an actual living space versus the trade hub and checkpoint that it used to be under Kurac's fist?
There's like several thousand people squatting in the bailey at any given time, I think? Not sure on the exact numbers post-tuluk closure but its alot of people squatting/living in Luirs. Tribals who live in the northlands/tablelands/reddesert/wherever TEND to be pretty transient, though... being proper nomads and all.
Luirs does indeed have a huge immigrant population. I've seen it acknowledged and roleplayed and suggested in animations.
I'd just like to say, removing apartments from other parts of the game will not make nak better. It will make other places, worse. Please do not remove content in the hopes of driving people to the city due to inconvenience and reduced playability, elsewhere.
Personally the reason I gravitate away from nak is because often times things go like.. a) oh I got robbed. b) cool I got robbed twice c) random magicker/breed/elf/human/other faction my PC wouldn't talk to only people encountered. d) KNEEL BEFORE ME BISH e) someone else paranoid spam walking/generally spamwalking/averse to interaction.
Someone said a while back that Luirs was appealing because you are effectively elbow to elbow with movers and shakers. You can get involved in stuff. People WANT to involve you in stuff. That is true as far as I have seen.
On the opposite side of that coin if you DO NOT want to be involved in stuff there are less scenarios that FORCE you to be involved. I think that is equally important.
TLDR: In soviet Allanak, you don't find roleplay, roleplay finds YOU (whether you like it or not) and I think that is a factor in preferences.
I don't feel Luir's has an "immigrant" population. It has a "transient" population. They're very different things. An immigrant comes here from somewhere else, and plans to stay. A transient comes here for a short period of time, then moves along to somewhere else or returns to wherever they were last. They might be repeat customers but they don't seek residency.
I actually like the concept of the bailey tents and huts. Sort of in the shape of a clover, with each section of the clover surrounding its own open courtyard, and each courtyard open to each OTHER courtyard.
In this way, groups can hang out outside their apartments, still be in watching distance of their apartments, while they gather together to do their crafting, talk about hunting, do whatever it is they do. It reminds me of a small dormitory in a city college. Three people share a room, and there are only 6-7 rooms total. The front door is kept unlocked during the day, and people can stay in their rooms or hang out together in the living room or kitchen.
A communal environment with semi-privacy for sleeping and storage.
I'd love to see this repeated in the city. Maybe over the Gaj. Instead of easily-unlocked apartments that no one is willing to rent in, I'd like to see a full renovation with front left, front right, rear left, rear right clusters of smaller apartments, and each cluster surrounding a communal space. Perhaps each communal space could be lockable, giving the would-be burglar two points of entry needed to actually get into someone's apartment. And they would risk any of FOUR apartments worth of tenants being in that central courtyard when they break in, because that central courtyard would have a table and chairs, a firepit, maybe a chest for communal property - so it would be inviting for residents to hang out in there.
Anyway that's my thoughts on apartments in general. I think it's the layout of the one in Luir's that made it so attractive, combined with the "independent-friendly" environment of the outpost.
Quote from: HortaCulture on September 23, 2020, 07:45:36 AM
...
Personally the reason I gravitate away from nak is because often times things go like.. a) oh I got robbed. b) cool I got robbed twice c) random magicker/breed/elf/human/other faction my PC wouldn't talk to only people encountered. d) KNEEL BEFORE ME BISH e) someone else paranoid spam walking/generally spamwalking/averse to interaction.
...
Having just returned from a few years break playing a new character in the Nak area. I will say a lot of this does appear to be different now.
Raiders still exist but they seem less insta-kill than before.
I haven't experienced the "Kneel bish" thing, though a valid part of roleplay for the templar/nobles, I haven't seen it on my return, more of a "Know your place" vibe than anything and when you follow the proper social etiquette they seem to be less annoying with it.
Spam walking, no roleplay is more my downside at the moment. Seems Bar RP is a thing of the past for the most part. I've been on when 40 some folks are on, and rotated all the allanak (proper southside) bars and nobody.
(Note: I'm not a huge proponent of tavern sitting, but it does provide a way to find folks to interact with.)
I have been to Luirs once or twice in this fellow and did find people each and every time, but again, limited amount of folks at the public gathering points.
I think the problem is there is too much risk and not enough reward to interact once you get your established Rythym. Why bother hobbnobbing with X character at the bar, in the market when there is a chance some elf with min/max stealing is gonna rob you blind? Or you could be better served to manufacture gear/items in your apartment stronghold as previously stated here in this thread.
I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think they need to look at ways to get folks to have to interact and remove some of the NPC outlets for coin making and the like. That way you can't have someone apartment farming up their merchant character with a sack full of goods to run through three different locations selling. It would allow for more real selling with players and dealers, but that's just my take on it.
I dont think the problem is the apartment themselves but the amount of items you can hold in them. The shantytown might as well be called warehouse town.
To be fair, I think my view of nak was tarnished when I came back as my first experience was an absurdly extended "kneel bish" that lasted like a RL hour over the offense of "not bowing good enough". I basically wasn't needed in the scene except to emote kissing the ground now and then. I have since had a mix of good and bad otherwise. Has been some very funny things in recent times. But it's really lacking something.
Even if we took all the apartments away entirely, it would not bring all the PC's renting said apartments to the city instead. There are levels of nuance to the problem itself, but it seems like the solution is not quite so simple.
I've avoided chiming in on it but okay.. one of my favorite PC's from the before times was a hobo from Luirs. They spent VERY little time, in Luirs. Why?
They were a spy between Nak and Tuluk. As an indie. Got close to a Tuluki noble through indie work. Pressured/tempted into selling information to a Southern templar.. and off we go. Shit I don't even know if she had an apartment anywhere. Randomly maybe.
I got so wrapped into it at one point staff wrote ME a request to be like.."lol okay can you do a report because your indie is appearing in a lot of other reports and we want to know wtf she is doing pls thx".
The competition dynamic was a good dynamic and certainly healthy for Allanak. It needs something external, IMHO. Something very clear and hateable and propaganda worthy. Maybe it's not Tuluk, I dunno. But I know I used to have way more fun in the city when it had a major and active enemy.
Quote from: Pariah on September 23, 2020, 08:05:23 AM
I think the problem is there is too much risk and not enough reward to interact once you get your established Rythym. Why bother hobbnobbing with X character at the bar, in the market when there is a chance some elf with min/max stealing is gonna rob you blind? Or you could be better served to manufacture gear/items in your apartment stronghold as previously stated here in this thread.
Counterpoint: Coin farming is boring to most people, and the people that don't get bored by it probably aren't the ones that are going to create interesting rp for you. You need a way to lure out interesting players that do interesting things. Fiddling with coin farming and apartments might be warranted for other reasons, but it's not going to do that.
Quote from: Narf on September 23, 2020, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Pariah on September 23, 2020, 08:05:23 AM
I think the problem is there is too much risk and not enough reward to interact once you get your established Rythym. Why bother hobbnobbing with X character at the bar, in the market when there is a chance some elf with min/max stealing is gonna rob you blind? Or you could be better served to manufacture gear/items in your apartment stronghold as previously stated here in this thread.
Fair point
Counterpoint: Coin farming is boring to most people, and the people that don't get bored by it probably aren't the ones that are going to create interesting rp for you. You need a way to lure out interesting players that do interesting things. Fiddling with coin farming and apartments might be warranted for other reasons, but it's not going to do that.
Just my two cents on the issue of apartments and Allanaki population: correlation does not equal causation. There's plenty of other driving factors in Allanak at the time the apartments dropped that easily make or break the citystate for alot of people's playability. Whether it's specific templars being gung-ho about killing PCs at the drop of a hat, "kneel bish" scenes that happened more frequently than not, or the ever-invisible elven miscreant with very little counterplay for most types of PCs. Bad experiences that go beyond "unfair" and edge into the territory of being annoying really do drive people away from playing in that area, esp if they feel their death-scenes were lackluster and the population of Allanak was already in decline. Combine many driving factors with the only thing really killing most PCs in Luirs being unlucky PvE and more people will stick around than disappear. Luir's Outpost doesn't have a "zone" where its relatively easy to train all skullduggery skills to master in 1-5 irl days and then harass where people are, it even has an annoyance where its more difficult than anything to try to start a thief there due to cramped amounts of soldier npcs and barely any npcs to steal from without major consequence. Alot of people don't like being inconvenienced by Templars incessantly, "noble rp/plots", or getting constantly having everything you own disappear mysteriously from the 2 days played elven miscreant.
Allanak's population is recovering, slowly. But if someone literally spends rl hours trying to look for interaction in Allanak and finds zero people anywhere, they're just going to play somewhere else. The problem feeds itself. Content removal sucks and consolidation won't fix a thing here. Good players and good leaders, fun players and fun leaders... all of them help moreso than removing someone's saveroom warehouse apartment.
So we are all in agreeance. One of the best parts of Tuluk, was a near-complete absence of 'Kneel bish'
Quote from: Fredd on September 23, 2020, 02:10:23 PM
So we are all in agreeance. One of the best parts of Tuluk, was a near-complete absence of 'Kneel bish'
Yes sure +1.
Even the most kneel inducing Lirathan people love to whine about was one tenth as "kneel bish" inducing as the average Allanaki templar.
I think one advantage Tuluk had were citizenship inks. It gave the ruling class a reason to show commoners at least a modicum of respect. Citizens got involved in plots more openly, etc.
Allanak has no such mechanisms, and worse yet antagonistic Red Stormers can blend in easily.
QuoteI'd just like to say, removing apartments from other parts of the game will not make nak better. It will make other places, worse. Please do not remove content in the hopes of driving people to the city due to inconvenience and reduced playability, elsewhere.
Like I said, sometimes the issue is not just 'make this area more appealing', it can also be 'we made one area too appealing'. I can't say for certain, but there have been a number of posts that kind of indicate that this might be the case, which makes that idea worth investigating. People have pretty much said outright that it's low-risk warehousing for their characters, and that if they tried to do it in 'nak that it was risky which wasn't fun. That's a pretty clear indicator right there.
QuoteSo we are all in agreeance. One of the best parts of Tuluk, was a near-complete absence of 'Kneel bish'
This is kind of confusing to me though. This hasn't been absent for most of the period of the game. What shift happened that made this suddenly intolerable? When did a noble or templar being an asshole for a scene that says '0 actual impact, just reiterating what you should already know, which is that I am better than you' become a reason to avoid an area entirely? Have people -forgotten- the social strata so that this scene is hard to swallow and infuriating because they don't want their character to be lesser? Or is the social status quo itself intolerable...because people don't want their character to be lesser?
Having a 'bigger' character come out and beat the shit out of you for no reason is one thing. Now your roleplay shifts to having to roleplay being hurt and recovering instead of whatever you were hoping to do. But I'm not certain I see the issue with scenes that do nothing but reinforce the power structure.
Making other things worse to drive players to Allanak just sounds sad to me. In my head Allanak's big draw was always just that you could go inside and find people. It wasn't apartments or storage or whatever. It was interaction.
Allanak is terrible for hunting. It's far more dangerous outside than the north. The government can be oppressive in the extreme and can execute you at a whim. But you could generally find people to talk to. Now that the bars are empty for whatever reason, people ride elsewhere for that because why wouldn't they? There's nothing wrong with this. Why do we have to try and force people back if they don't want to be there? Just get out of the Allanak-Centric mindset and adapt to how our players are playing. Things'll swing back that way eventually.
(just an opinion)
I really am just furthering the point not out of absolute support, but because the replies are conducive to it.
QuoteBut you could generally find people to talk to. Now that the bars are empty for whatever reason, people ride elsewhere for that because why wouldn't they?
Again, that's only reiterating the point made. Why wouldn't you? It's a surefire sign that a change someplace made it more appealing elsewhere to shift the dominant center, and what remains to be viewed is whether or not that is a problem or not.
QuoteMaking other things worse to drive players to Allanak just sounds sad to me. In my head Allanak's big draw was always just that you could go inside and find people. It wasn't apartments or storage or whatever. It was interaction.
This statement keeps coming up even though it always falls under the same blanket. Luir's was not the place to -live- in any time prior unless you were closely affiliated with it. I think that's the whole point of what's being made with the statement that apartments made things 'too good' for indies. The repeated talks about thievery in Allanak versus safety in Luir's...this is the same thing over and over. There was a change to Luir's that made it more suitable, more people moved there, more interaction became available, more people moved there, and in effect you have a sort of exodus based off of the prime nature of indy housing there.
So again. Does that make sense? Would the 'merchanting' basis of Luir's culture seek to capitalize off of that? I know that MMH gets impeded a lot by major merchant houses, wouldn't the Garrison just be an extension of that idea? Why does it not make sense for the housing there to be based off of offloading goods consistently rather than stockpiling it for use later? Higher rent, less space? House-only to secure your hunting goods for themselves?
Maybe the answer is just to introduce a criminal element to Luir's, and have the merchant houses do their own sort of sensible oppression but vying against each other...like noble houses. Then at least the reasoning to go there is not 'escape 'nak', it's 'best location for hunters'. I feel like what people keep saying is that Luir's is free of undesirable things, which just doesn't seem to make sense in Arm.
It's not that Luirs was made hugely better. It's that Allanak has always sucked from a quality of life sense and when there's nobody around to talk to it's terrible. My actual point which wasn't quoted is, why are we trying to force our players? Let them play where they want without this OOC effort to corral them. They'll be back eventually.
As a hunter type character I will say, from what I remember it was much less deadly up north when Tuluk was around.
I've been destroyed on 5-10 day played hunters by a random Drov or Spider that gets too close to Allanak.
I've never been killed that easily in Tuluk.
But then there is the themely-ness of it. Am I going to live in Allanak, but ride across the whole god damn world just for hunting? Is that proper?
Or am I gonna just deal with the chance of getting insta-slayed in the south? I struggle with the idea of travelling so far north for nothing more than hunting.
I think the 'kneel bish' thing has always been sort of like okay, It's not about me wanting to be better its about, I know you are, but I am trapped in a scene that was redundant 10 mins ago. I kneeled. I kissed the ground. I did a detailed emote about how hard I'm grovelling. If we're going to do this for more than ten minutes like at least.. order me to do something and dismiss me so I have left the scene with a hook I have to fulfill? At least that was my problem with it. Shrug.
Edit to add: You can generate sustained interaction from a kneel bish scene by giving the peon in question something to do to apologize, for example, and when they go out and do it, hey, what a good little poppet now there are reasons to give them more shit to do. (see: my previously referenced character the spy got started like this) But this, was not what I was experiencing. There was no reason to interact, more reason to avoid. So it is kinda boring.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 23, 2020, 03:18:46 PM
I feel like what people keep saying is that Luir's is free of undesirable things, which just doesn't seem to make sense in Arm.
Not that I've any idea how to do it, but I think one thing that could help is focusing on making ICly undesirable things more fun OOCly.
Like would there be a way to make being shaken down by templars more entertaining for players? Is there a way to make theft more entertaining for the victim? I think people might have resigned themselves to treating these as an OOC cost to playing in a harsh and gritty world, when if they were reworked a bit they might actually make Alanak more entertaining to play in from a player perspective (even though the characters would continue to hate it).
That's kind of a tall order though. Individual players can make crime and punishment interesting, but actually making it reliable across players enough that large segments of the player population would seek it out would be tough. I'd almost say though it'd be worth doing a sponsored role call with specific rp stipulations involved in the role call.
"Pickpockets and burglars who ransoms back people's belongings wanted"
"Ineffective and easily tricked templar sought"
Perhaps give some sort of skill bumps to the role calls to get them off the ground.
Quote from: ArmaddictWhen did a noble or templar being an asshole for a scene that says '0 actual impact, just reiterating what you should already know, which is that I am better than you' become a reason to avoid an area entirely?
When that experience was no longer backed up by the activity and forward momentum within the sphere that once made it fine to be subjected to the parts of Allanak's lore that say you're a worthless maggot under the heels of templars and nobles. Once that became all there was to the Allanak experience - bereft of the wars, political intrigue and inclusive world events that the game used to enjoy - being a peon in the muck lost its appeal. It was cool to get shit on by templars back when they would go down in history as doers of great things, but when they just fade in and out with no more legacy than shitting on the peons, it falls flat. People will seek to play elsewhre when the only thing they see upon visiting Allanak is sponsored roles bullying random nobodies without anything else going on. And here I'm not talking about festivals and auctions. That's not meant to be what the game revolves around.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 23, 2020, 02:25:51 PM
QuoteI'd just like to say, removing apartments from other parts of the game will not make nak better. It will make other places, worse. Please do not
QuoteSo we are all in agreeance. One of the best parts of Tuluk, was a near-complete absence of 'Kneel bish'
This is kind of confusing to me though. This hasn't been absent for most of the period of the game. What shift happened that made this suddenly intolerable? When did a noble or templar being an asshole for a scene that says '0 actual impact, just reiterating what you should already know, which is that I am better than you' become a reason to avoid an area entirely? Have people -forgotten- the social strata so that this scene is hard to swallow and infuriating because they don't want their character to be lesser? Or is the social status quo itself intolerable...because people don't want their character to be lesser?
It's a lot more prevalent, now that we have a lot more active nobles in the player hub. They can out number commoner PC's sometimes.
If Luir's living is increasing because of the availability of safe apartment storage, I'd rather something was introduced to make them less safe than have the apartments closed or given restrictions on who can rent.
Some sort of established criminal element/clan, or maybe even just a vendor that moonlights in their shop tent selling picks and footpads.
Alright. So from an indy perspective from what we've gathered here, in an attempt to reiterate a point or more closely align replies to what I'm looking for...
Red Storm: Poor economics, poor weather, but relative freedom, apartments are present and safe.
Allanak: Travel required for good economics, meh weather, interaction is with people who can be and will be oppressive (i.e. non freedom), apartments are present and not safe.
Morins: Good economics, good weather, interaction is hard to find but freedom is there, apartments are not present (I might be wrong here)
Luir's: Good economics, good weather, interaction is there, freedom is high, apartments are present and safe, clan presence is high
So when you guys say make everything better, I'm kinda scrunching my face and wondering if you're basically saying remake Allanak the way people said remake Tuluk. Because that went very poorly, as players voiced over the long term. Instead, I think it's more likely that a rosy garden was presented in a land of ash. I'm not pretending to have -the- solution, but I think that some drawbacks are certainly welcome in that list above (or expansion of the list to show that the drawbacks there are relatively equal). I think some oppression/control by the merchant houses there in one or two of various different ways is probably warranted...in the case that the mass migration of players to this location is actually as large as you guys have made it sound.
Quote from: lostinspace on September 23, 2020, 08:05:27 PM
If Luir's living is increasing because of the availability of safe apartment storage, I'd rather something was introduced to make them less safe than have the apartments closed or given restrictions on who can rent.
Some sort of established criminal element/clan, or maybe even just a vendor that moonlights in their shop tent selling picks and footpads.
I also think this is a nice solution, even if it's small time. Or, if we put the onus on players, some sort of enabling of heavier raiding around Luir's.
I will say that though Luirs gets a rap for being 'EZ Mode', there are certainly still dangers, and the Indies I've played out of there haven't always felt totally safe 100% of the time. The GMH are often conniving and turning people against one another, and the Garrison is always an unknown quantity as the Captain changes, and who's pocket they are in. While it is certainly nowhere near as oppressive as Allanak, you also don't have free reign to do as you please. I do think (oddly) there is less monopoly competition in Luirs as far as warehouse space goes.
I feel one of the drawbacks of starting your Indy Empire in Luirs is the high likelihood that your band of misfits will be absorbed into one of the GMH. Almost like company trading and selling stock. GMH might make it easier for you to start, but it's just so they can get a good thing going and absorb you into their empire.
Morin's Village certainly has no apartments, and I'd prefer it stay that way. The fewer bolt holes, the better, and the 'communal hippie living' lifestyle there is sort of different and interesting I think.
In general I don't feel apartments are the problem, they're a symptom, and many of the things being discussed are symptoms of a greater issue -- forward motion in the game world, from micro and macro perspectives. There currently seem to be cycles of plots that Venn diagram with one another, some larger than others, most revolving around rogue magickers or defilers and whether or not they will be found and hunted. Smaller than that are petty politics between both Houses and People. There are some exceptions (Luirs half blowing up, for instance), but the results of that are rebuilding it back to mostly where it was before such an event. That appears to be the MO after destructive RPTs, which I don't necessarily blame Sponsored Roles for wanting to pursue, it makes perfect human sense to rebuild what has been broken.
However, lasting scars and marks on the world are few and far between, and sort of visual milestones for the forward movement of the 'story' of the game. One could argue major shifts such as the War in the North, the Occupation, the Copper War, the Deluge, the Gith War, and things of this sort are a product of a bygone era. However it is difficult to gauge, as we are not on Staff, and don't know what they are cooking up or planning.
ArmageddonMUD is a bit of an experiment. Some things work very well that I don't think were intended to work very well. The DIKU code somehow plays to its favor, while other games that use it are incredibly difficult and boring. The Magick system isn't perfect, but works. The stealth system is far from perfect, particularly now, but works. Combat isn't perfect, but it works. The combination of these factors, mixed with some of the better RP that can be found on RPI MUDs (At least, some of the time), makes a strange amalgam.
There's this feeling I have in the back of my mind though that's difficult to express -- Wouldn't it be great if ArmageddonMUD did something bold? Risky? Exciting? Different? It would be so pleasing to find this game/hobby does something exceptionally well, instead of an amalgam of things that 'just work'.
It isn't meant as a dig or knock, either against Staff or the game, it just feels it's been resting on its laurels a bit in recent years. I do still play PCs that make it difficult to close the computer, where I dream in text of what will come next, and have thrilling fun. But those instances are fewer and far between now. Of course, I am getting older. The game is getting older too. Nothing remains the same, particularly a game world like Zalanthas. Yet it seems all too familiar, when I wish it would change just a bit more.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 23, 2020, 02:25:51 PM
Like I said, sometimes the issue is not just 'make this area more appealing', it can also be 'we made one area too appealing'. I can't say for certain, but there have been a number of posts that kind of indicate that this might be the case, which makes that idea worth investigating. People have pretty much said outright that it's low-risk warehousing for their characters, and that if they tried to do it in 'nak that it was risky which wasn't fun. That's a pretty clear indicator right there.
This has been bugging me. Aren't we here to have fun? Sure, a little risk is good, but if Option A is low-risk and fun, and Option B is high-risk and no fun...and this is a game, surely we should be adding a carrot to Option B. So Option B is high-risk and no fun but comes with more space, some bling, or whatever...would be better than taking away Option A. Because if you do that, people will just shrug and go "Eh, can't be bothered with Option B, that isn't fun".
It is sad, to me, that we're going for the stick option. Don't take away people's fun, they might go elsewhere to have fun, sure, but they've already chosen not to have it in Allanak, so that 'elsewhere' might be another game. It is a dangerous thing to do, to remove features.
I imagine it is just a cycle, and people will rotate back again. Having a few good leaders around, and having them/the environment not be super destructive (killing off lots of characters, stomping on plots, stealing everything not nailed down), helps. Oppression is good, but it should be done with a lighter hand (except for blatant troublemakers, those you use as examples/fodder for the Nursery) than what I saw the last time I was in Allanak. Right now, perhaps the 'lighter hand of oppression' seems to be in Luir's/Storm (I wouldn't know, I don't know how Nak is doing atm), but I have noticed that characters seem to live longer north of Luir's (including the Outpost), and that can be really helpful when you are trying to write a communal story together.
The idea that apartments are 'low risk' in Luirs is erroneous. Let's just clear that up.
Quote from: ShaiHulud on September 24, 2020, 03:23:32 AM
The idea that apartments are 'low risk' in Luirs is erroneous. Let's just clear that up.
VERY true. I keep trying to tell people this, but I guess I'm the only person that robs them? Because it seems like everyone insists they never get hit
Frankly I would be happy if Allanaki Nobles and Templars got back to oppressing people, that is, I would prefer they engaged in roleplay other than hiding in the Noble's quarter and attending their private parties. Whoever thought opening up exclusive roles and encouraging these roles to never interact with the public was... very assured of their own correctness and took no care to listen to the playerbase who complained as these roles were opening.
And now look at where we are. Should have listened to the players!
Quote from: Fredd on September 24, 2020, 04:48:51 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on September 24, 2020, 03:23:32 AM
The idea that apartments are 'low risk' in Luirs is erroneous. Let's just clear that up.
VERY true. I keep trying to tell people this, but I guess I'm the only person that robs them? Because it seems like everyone insists they never get hit
Have been robbed in Luirs, several times across characters. It's far from no risk I would say. There isn't like, 10 elven miscreants at any given time with one breaking in every RL day clearing them out.. which likely shouldn't be the standard risk level. My PC's know to leave really nice stuff in an apartment is a gamble. This is logical and true in Luirs.
There is also one other risky thing that happens in apartments in Luirs that I do not hear tell of happening in nak.. maybe it does, sometimes, I suspect not anywhere nearly so much as Luirs because reasons? I probably shouldn't elaborate but ... it happens. In a variety of ways.
Subtext of HortaCulture's post:
You get locked in rooms and killed in Allanak.
It's a private party!
Quote from: triste on September 24, 2020, 09:49:02 AM
Frankly I would be happy if Allanaki Nobles and Templars got back to oppressing people, that is, I would prefer they engaged in roleplay other than hiding in the Noble's quarter and attending their private parties. Whoever thought opening up exclusive roles and encouraging these roles to never interact with the public was... very assured of their own correctness and took no care to listen to the playerbase who complained as these roles were opening.
And now look at where we are. Should have listened to the players!
I keep saying! Use harassment to vet peons dammit. Make them do stuff to apologize for breathing at you. Then reward them with other stuff to do. Assign them as a commoner peon to your aide so your aide can play with them like little dolls on their own level. Collect commoners of use like pokemon. You could even trade them! It'd be fun I promise.
Quote from: triste on September 24, 2020, 09:59:42 AM
Subtext of HortaCulture's post:
You get locked in rooms and killed in Allanak.
It's a private party!
That's... not exactly what I meant. More like redacted redacted kind of stuff? Anything with a lock is potentially a death box but there are certain WAYS and also, privacy issues.. and stuff.
Edit: Not even just apartments. In general. A risk one runs to nak to get away from in fact as far as I have seen. So yeah!
Quote from: HortaCulture on September 24, 2020, 10:01:41 AM
Quote from: triste on September 24, 2020, 09:59:42 AM
Subtext of HortaCulture's post:
You get locked in rooms and killed in Allanak.
It's a private party!
That's... not exactly what I meant. More like redacted redacted kind of stuff? Anything with a lock is potentially a death box but there are certain WAYS and also, privacy issues.. and stuff.
Edit: Not even just apartments. In general. A risk one runs to nak to get away from in fact as far as I have seen. So yeah!
Also fair enough, but my personal PTSD around being killed in lock rooms [weird term used for reasons--rooms inescapable for code reasons] in Allanak aside, I've heard of some truly cheesy apartment killings there.
Quote from: HortaCulture on September 24, 2020, 10:00:13 AM
Quote from: triste on September 24, 2020, 09:49:02 AM
Frankly I would be happy if Allanaki Nobles and Templars got back to oppressing people, that is, I would prefer they engaged in roleplay other than hiding in the Noble's quarter and attending their private parties. Whoever thought opening up exclusive roles and encouraging these roles to never interact with the public was... very assured of their own correctness and took no care to listen to the playerbase who complained as these roles were opening.
And now look at where we are. Should have listened to the players!
I keep saying! Use harassment to vet peons dammit. Make them do stuff to apologize for breathing at you. Then reward them with other stuff to do. Assign them as a commoner peon to your aide so your aide can play with them like little dolls on their own level. Collect commoners of use like pokemon. You could even trade them! It'd be fun I promise.
It does happen sometimes but I mostly play pokemon named shit like Gicker-mon, Tribal-hates-cities, Mutie-chan, Breedy, and Rinthi-boi, so it rarely happens.
If you have interesting content for all roles, they'll come to Allanak. I don't like how the GMH house hunter topic was brushed off for instance: it literally might bring some people to Allanak who are stepping in that city 0% of the time now.
Do stuff like revitalize the 'rinth, open Gladiator roles again, etc, and you can bring back the people who avoid Allanak. Maybe.
Lastly much love and respect to players trying to be the change and make a place for roles like these, I hope you are getting adequate staff support! That is basically all I am asking for. Judging from where roles open, and judging where roles close, there sadly isn't much support for pokemon like LoneHunter, Rinthi-boi, etc.
I don't think simply opening up the roles creates interest. It's a combination of providing opportunity, and creating interest in those opportunities.
For example, opening up the Oashi Elite and calling it a day with little Staff interaction, no other similar roles in social strata, and no 'plots' built in or leading up to the role's inclusion in the game world will lead to a very dull time.
Instead, imagine opening up the Oashi Elite and the Tor Scorpions and having one PC in each - Hmm, this seems a bit better. Opening up the Oashi Elite, Tor Scorpions, and Amber Wyverns and only getting one PC in Oash and Tor - Hm, not ideal, it would be nice to have all three, but perhaps a Staff NPC fills in the third option, and it remains open for PC apps. Having a plot that involves all three factions and their Nobles, putting them in competition with one another or potential alliance - Now we have hooks, not to mention the day-to-day life hooks of the PCs as they inhabit (and represent) the world.
Gladiators are nice as a side flavor, but for a while, they were the main course of Allanak's RPTs and enjoyment.
As far as 'revitalizing the Labyrinth', I don't know if there was a time where the Labyrinth was vital or populated or 'happening' outside of the times of Gin/Quick. And it seems most of Staff and the Playerbase doesn't want that reoccurring. It's a lawless murder-hobo paradise filled with Spiceheads and elves. I'm not sure what would revitalize it, and from what. It already got a makeover, new rooftops and channels of passage, semi-hidey holes, etc. Some of the NPCs could use updating (I think someone pointed out the backroom fence who sells nothing useful, for instance), but it honestly serves its purpose currently, IMHO.
Lots of posts, good stuff. Keep in mind that I glean all of my information pretty much from the GDB as an inactive player (I just still have lots of interest in arm), so when I say irrelevant things...just swing along with me. It's more to promote further exploration than anything else.
LUIRS:
So apparently it's not really safe. I still find it funny that there has been a mass migration -to- Luir's alluded to, not just -away- from Allanak. This still seems to follow the principle that things are just too good and convenient there. This is not a carrot and stick argument. It's not about punishing or rewarding something. It's about changes that have been made that essentially pushed things out of whack. Keep in mind that hunting has always been better in the north, and yet Allanak never really lost its hunting crowd; this reinforces the suggestion that while that may be a contributing factor, it's not exactly a large one. I still think criminal enterprise being opened in Luir's, perhaps even as just a Guild satellite or somesuch, is a good idea, along with a more heavy-handed control of the economy and situation by those who would be totally interested in such IC, i.e. Merchant Houses in residence there. Whether that be dominion and control over apartments, some sort of market manipulation, or just tiered prices for small apartments that can't hold much...the idea of 'basing' out of Luir's as a non-member of any of the groups there seems a bit contrary to the way the place is run, handled, and represented.
Allanak:
Keep in mind I was an almost-solely-Allanaki player. The thing that drove me away was a creeping malaise by the closure of clans and limited sources of full conflict, with the nail on the coffin being classes changes that I wholeheartedly disagreed with not in theory, but in practice. I was fine with switching up classes. I was not fine with how it ended up.
Most of what people describe about moving away from Allanak has to do with inconveniences, but some have mirrored the above in some way or another. The lack of meaningful antagonism stands out...Allanak has largely been a center of 'things to do' for some time, and I think it may have simply run out of 'things to do', leaving activity and interaction to represent the city left almost soley on players. Templars trying to reinforce the world, not to bootstomp you, but to give you -some- thing to react do in the oppression of the city. Enabling player-run antagonist groups rather than just allowing them could be a step forward, particularly if you make Allanak have some policy that other places simply can't. A militia wing that hunts raiders and defends Allanaki citizens, where Luir's only protects caravans and their gates. The 'things to do' problem rising above mere personal survival goals seems necessary to enjoyment there. In other words, a cause or constant simmer of conflict seems to vitalize that area in particular.
As far as the 'rinth, briefly:
QuoteAs far as 'revitalizing the Labyrinth', I don't know if there was a time where the Labyrinth was vital or populated or 'happening' outside of the times of Gin/Quick.
This is a vast disservice to the area itself and -numerous- time periods where it was a happening place, with spectacular PC's. It's important to remember that the Gin/Quick era is -notorious-, not really for being badass but for a bunch of uber-power shenanigans. There were a lot of facets to that era that were things that just wouldn't fly by today's standards and really didn't then, either, which is why some changes were made.
Overall, there appears to be a general distaste for hardships and misfortune. People will likely argue with that, but me as a reader, I see various instances where it essentially comes down to how it's not fun to have bad things happen, and this is a very faulty metric or measure of fun. If we followed that metric to any real extent, this would cease to be a permadeath game. These occurrences are what give weight to the opposite ends of the spectrum. They're the things that give weight to the entire game world, really. But people seem to get caught up in the negativity of those experiences far more than what they add to what everyone always pines for with everything...the story. Perhaps Allanak simply suffers from that, which is why I'm picking on Luir's. Allanak is built to keep the character down, as the entirety of the game is supposed to be. It builds a ceaseless, powerful struggle to rise above it, fraught with failures and mishaps, just so that sometimes you break out of it into a spectacular explosion of awesome that resonates across the game instead of just in your character's personal circle.
The first character I ever played in Luirs was not to get away from inconveniences or harsh roleplay, but to simply live in a different environment from my previous character. For a player that does not have more than one karma, or does not desire sponsored or app-in roles, Luirs is the only option unless you are fond of isolated roles. I have gone back to Allanak since, and find it very quiet in general, moreso if you are not part of a clan.
I suppose it's less quiet if you are a Good Player Who Can Find Their Own Fun, and Create It For Others, but I am sadly not one of those people. I'm just an average player who mostly just wants to enjoy the game environment without getting into heavy plots and murder schemes. But I'm slowly realizing that there really isn't much of a place for players like me in the current environment, particularly in Allanak.
Quote from: ArmaddictOverall, there appears to be a general distaste for hardships and misfortune. People will likely argue with that, but me as a reader, I see various instances where it essentially comes down to how it's not fun to have bad things happen, and this is a very faulty metric or measure of fun. If we followed that metric to any real extent, this would cease to be a permadeath game. These occurrences are what give weight to the opposite ends of the spectrum. They're the things that give weight to the entire game world, really. But people seem to get caught up in the negativity of those experiences far more than what they add to what everyone always pines for with everything...the story. Perhaps Allanak simply suffers from that, which is why I'm picking on Luir's. Allanak is built to keep the character down, as the entirety of the game is supposed to be. It builds a ceaseless, powerful struggle to rise above it, fraught with failures and mishaps, just so that sometimes you break out of it into a spectacular explosion of awesome that resonates across the game instead of just in your character's personal circle.
I don't think it's so much a distaste for hardship and misfortune in and of themselves, it's a distaste for those things when they aren't paid back with something equally impactful. Getting bullied by a templar or mugged by an enforcer you never saw before feels like crap when that's the only memorable thing that happened to you in a month of playing in Allanak. Players were a lot more tolerant toward these things when there was more to city roles than that. Templars have always bullied people, criminals have always mugged people, raiders have always been around in one form or another; but there was a time when these events were of minor significance because there was such a thing as the grand scheme of things.
The 'grand scheme of things' has gone lost. These days, when you get bullied by a templar, it's very likely the biggest and most traumatic thing that has ever happened to your character. Even if I fling the rose-tinted glasses into a corner of the room, there was frankly a time when things like that were "just the way Allanak is" -- because there were bigger things to worry about. There have, at various times, been: the dwarven rebellion against Allanak, the rebellion against the Allanaki occupation of Tuluk, the liberation of Luir's from the mantis, the geopolitical nature of the Copper War, and then the gamewide ramifications of the End of Days plotline from the Reborn era (which, although unfinished, was very impactful at the time). Throughout most of the history of this game, there were bigger things to worry about than a templar treating you like shit, or a dude in the desert forcing you to drop your pack.
But now? Now that's likely to be the biggest thing that ever happened to your character, and I don't think the common player can be blamed for caring a lot about the biggest thing that's happened to their character. If there was more to care about, their response to what should be everyday features of the Zalanthan setting would probably be more measured. Getting raided or mugged or searched for contraband is hardly a traumatic experience for any player worth their salt; but if that's the only thing of any note that happened to them in months, it's difficult to blame them for being jaded about it. They aren't out of touch with the game's setting--Zalanthas is out of touch with itself. It was once a world where that sort of thing was a sidenote.
Quote from: Delirium on July 13, 2020, 08:00:15 AM
the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.
The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.
Re-posting and bolding the parts that are what happened to Allanak.
Allanak was at its best when there was something external and important, some background plot arc, to hook into. Players are least equipped to push through city-spanning plots unless they're festivals. Speaking of which, stop shitting on festivals, you ungrateful turds. This is coming from someone who doesn't particularly like party RPTs either. I still appreciate what they're trying to do, and the entire game could use with a little more "what are we grateful for" instead of "what can we hate on next."
Agreed.
Plenty of murder, corruption, and competition happens during Festivals. It just became this "Cool to shit on" type of things.
Personally, I think the lack (perceived or real) of player population in Allanak is due to a few combined factors:
1) GMH's have stopped recruiting hunting/guard corps PCs - that's a sizeable drop right there.
2) Garrison opening up in Luir's - a good chunk of players have migrated there.
3) Opening up of D-elf tribes and Muark - has also pulled out tiny sliver players.
4) Also, we have to bear in mind that earlier, PCs not wanted in Nak used to migrate to Tuluk, and vice-versa - thereby keeping the player-populations of the two City-States pretty high. Now, PC's not wanted in Allanak are simply going out to the fringes.
5) Lack of rinthi action, especially for c-elves (although I am aware that this IS being looked into as we speak) has left it one-sided for a long time.
6) Changes to the Guilds have made it possible for magickers (who were combat-weak and were prompted to consider safe havens in the City-States earlier), to take to the sands themselves.
Quote from: Incognito on September 25, 2020, 03:35:44 PM
Personally, I think the lack (perceived or real) of player population in Allanak is due to a few combined factors:
1) GMH's have stopped recruiting hunting/guard corps PCs - that's a sizeable drop right there.
2) Garrison opening up in Luir's - a good chunk of players have migrated there.
3) Opening up of D-elf tribes and Muark - has also pulled out tiny sliver players.
4) Also, we have to bear in mind that earlier, PCs not wanted in Nak used to migrate to Tuluk, and vice-versa - thereby keeping the player-populations of the two City-States pretty high. Now, PC's not wanted in Allanak are simply going out to the fringes.
5) Lack of rinthi action, especially for c-elves (although I am aware that this IS being looked into as we speak) has left it one-sided for a long time.
6) Changes to the Guilds have made it possible for magickers (who were combat-weak and were prompted to consider safe havens in the City-States earlier), to take to the sands themselves.
Great minds think alike.~~~
~~ǝʞılɐ ʞuıɥʇ spuıɯ ʇɐǝɹ⅁
I love all the possible solutions implied here, AND I love it when Staff listen to our feedback and start moving towards adding new content where players want it [AKA the C-Elf example here. I cried about the lack of C-Elf content for more than a year and got the response "It's not happening," but at some point that response changed to "It's maybe happening," and
that is what I call progress as I wear my rose tinted glasses here].
Quote from: Delirium on September 25, 2020, 10:23:48 AM
Speaking of which, stop shitting on festivals, you ungrateful turds. This is coming from someone who doesn't particularly like party RPTs either. I still appreciate what they're trying to do, and the entire game could use with a little more "what are we grateful for" instead of "what can we hate on next."
Festivals are not the problem in and of themselves. The problem is that festivals are pretty much all there is to look forward to, and are regarded by some as something that suffices on its own. We've always had festivals, but we used to have so much more on top. That was then lost, but we're still told that we're wrong in our impressions that nothing's going on because there was that festival last year. That's the issue. When someone complains that Allanak plots are dead and is met by a response of "well, there was the ocotillo festival eight RL months ago," that's... yeah. I'm sure you catch my drift. Festivals are business as usual. We have one just about every year. It isn't enough on its own.
I honestly don't find joy in the festivals. They feel like they are for a certain group of people and are closed off from the players not involved in sponsored roles. It's a place for old old players to hop on, show face, look at what's happening, and then leave.
Commoner's don't get much from them unless they have coin, but, the economy and opportunity for coin is absolutely not in Allanak. So, the festivals for people residing there.. is really for the higher class.
This has been a civil thread so far. Please try to keep it that way. Thank you.
Quote from: Incognito on September 25, 2020, 03:35:44 PM
Personally, I think the lack (perceived or real) of player population in Allanak is due to a few combined factors:
1) GMH's have stopped recruiting hunting/guard corps PCs - that's a sizeable drop right there.
2) Garrison opening up in Luir's - a good chunk of players have migrated there.
3) Opening up of D-elf tribes and Muark - has also pulled out tiny sliver players.
4) Also, we have to bear in mind that earlier, PCs not wanted in Nak used to migrate to Tuluk, and vice-versa - thereby keeping the player-populations of the two City-States pretty high. Now, PC's not wanted in Allanak are simply going out to the fringes.
5) Lack of rinthi action, especially for c-elves (although I am aware that this IS being looked into as we speak) has left it one-sided for a long time.
6) Changes to the Guilds have made it possible for magickers (who were combat-weak and were prompted to consider safe havens in the City-States earlier), to take to the sands themselves.
On the flip-side, what has the staff done to improve play in Allanak? I only can think of the Atrium for the social-political minions, briefly having more Noble Houses roles open for the sponsored roles, and now the Senate meeting being public thing. Along with the festivals, it seems to only really benefit the upper crust for sure and that's how I see Allanak since the closure of Tuluk.
Some observations over the last hundred plus hours since I've returned:
1). Hunting near Allanak is anemic. With virtually every guild having combat skills worth training, there is very little opportunity to do so easily from Allanak past the "apprentice" or journeyman levels. Play further north, have more coded hunting to do for skill gains and wealth gains.
2). Everything is codedly much more expensive in Allanak.
3). There is less stuff to buy in Allanak than there is in Luirs despite the bazaar in Allanak supposedly being the largest center of commerce in the world. There's better food, drinks, spice and other sundry items in Luirs.
4). Allanak non-clan housing is extremely insecure.
5). Allanak closes its gates for 33% of the day requiring you to time any excursions or risk being stuck outside in the dark bored and having to wait around. ICLy speaking Allanak is the most powerful city state, whereas less secure places don't take this added security measure.
6). Most of Allanak's role play is not in public, with every single clan have robust compounds that shield those players from external eyes. Even the upper crust bar blocks most of the player base from access.
7.). There are 5 places to congregate in Allanak (2 public taverns, 3 private clubs with restricted access by social status.
8.) Many of the above items creates the situation where there are multiple hot spots to congregate around but there are rarely enough players there to make it feel social.
There may be awesome nobles and Templar's and aides and stuff in Allanak...but you rarely see them. I've spent 120 hours in Allanak over the last month and ive literally only seen one noble and one Templar...maybe twice. That isn't because they aren't active, I just never see them because the game has encouraged them to be hidden away. If you're playing a sponsored role you will be contacted to interact with these people, but otherwise you probably won't know they even exist.
Creates the situation where if you're bored you don't have any coded thing worth hunting, very often locked inside a city and can't find anyone to interact with. There are people around, but you don't know about it and probably couldn't interact with them even if you did know. Time to move, or time to log off. If not for some incredibly active, fun players accessible over the Way in the city (which took me 40 RL hours to identify and build in game relations with), I would have left Allanak myself and it's basically the core of Armageddon for me...
Not proposing solutions here, just pointing out observations.
I'de like to point out that Allanaks Non-clan housing isn't as insecure as you think. There are apartments hard enough to unlock, that your basic burglar isn't getting in. They will need to essentially master the skill to get in.
Why is this important?
MOST burglars die before they hit that point. Of the ones that don't, the vast majority will be tied to The Guild.
And The Guild wont rob you if you meet certain, very easy, conditions.
That leaves noble aides. Those people that get assasinated constantly for stupidly robbing apartments. Among other things.
Allanak feels like the ideal place to play a degenerate, and it's where I preferred to be.
Here are things that I think hurt:
- If there are lots of players out in public doing things, it's more fun to hide and watch, spy, or steal from them. But if there's no incentive to actually be one of those "public" players, more and more will hide or avoid hubs, and it could perpetuate as this prisoner's dilemma
- Allanak's hubs are spread out and the paths between them are spooled out and often nonintersecting (and if you were worried about becoming someone's victim along the way, you just stealth around, and add net-zero to the game while you do)
- Being a victim in Allanak is often not fun. Being put in the dungeon is an OOC punishment; being caught by an authority figure is often an OOC punishment that can sometimes result in setbacks to your story (character death)
- Amassing wealth has become an increasingly low "content"-generating activity. This is perhaps a problem throughout the game, but what I mean by this is that silently crafting +2000 units of profit while hidden in your apartment adds nothing to anyone's story
Here's my list:
- Move housing and/or key resources so that people are forced to cross paths more often
- Add internal checkpoints that are effectively no-hide rooms, forcing people to come out of hiding occasionally. There are often no incentives to be visible otherwise
- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick
- Tie more housing to occupation; open clans up to combatant roles and force more people to join clans (which makes sense) if they want a place to stay. But this could also mean tiny room X requires you to clean tables at the Gaj, or shovel dung at the stable. Open up low-class clan roles for elves and half-elves, like House Jaal sewer cleaners. Players obviously love apartments, but make them pay for them through creating content and activity for other players
Code Master, I think you have brought an interesting point on what possible role can be played in Allanak. Other than the solical-poltical roles, what others can be played well and why. What can't be due to problems that could be fixed? As you listed some for degenerate.
As for solical-poltical roles, I think the main two issues is where are the gathering areas are located and who the events are for. As for a fix for gathering areas, I think I do agree with Code Master, they need to in paths where people are forced to cross paths with along with maybe combining the Gaj and Red's Retreat into on major tavern with many rooms with another entrance for the clientele of the Red's Retreat. And I think it should be the Gaj not the Red's because the Red's is too deep in Allanak.
Being a run-of-the-mill degenerate character in Allanak is like being a vNPC that people can target.
Quote from: CodeMaster on September 26, 2020, 04:37:21 PM
- Tie more housing to occupation; open clans up to combatant roles and force more people to join clans (which makes sense) if they want a place to stay. But this could also mean tiny room X requires you to clean tables at the Gaj, or shovel dung at the stable. Open up low-class clan roles for elves and half-elves, like House Jaal sewer cleaners. Players obviously love apartments, but make them pay for them through creating content and activity for other players
I don't feel like I have either the seniority nor the perspective to intelligently comment on many of the above points, but the bolded section actually makes a lot of sense to me. This hits several of the areas of concern that are coming up again and again - it gives low-class characters a viable employment option; you have a legitimate IC reason for upper-crust characters to rp with their "lessers"; and it firmly reinforces the species hierarchy. Not sure if it fits in with other setting aspects but at least on these points I think it's a winner.
Quote from: CodeMaster on September 26, 2020, 04:37:21 PM
- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick
Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.
Oh! Wow! The dungeon idea is so cool!
Quote from: triste on September 27, 2020, 10:25:34 AM
Quote from: CodeMaster on September 26, 2020, 04:37:21 PM
- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick
Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.
10/10 I support this.
Banishment DOES happen IG. it has happened recently if I am not mistaken. However it isn't CODED, as far as I know. So eventually, CrimCode wears off.
The dungeon's cells should only be used for things like merchant,s or nobles awaiting a trial. The others should get a group room that's dark, has secrets, and a chance to escape. Also, the chance to be locked up with the guy you hate and choked to death.
Codedly fighting for your freedom sounds awesome. When was the last time the Arena was even used? Been a minute I think.
Quote from: triste on September 27, 2020, 10:25:34 AM
Quote from: CodeMaster on September 26, 2020, 04:37:21 PM
- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick
Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.
C'mon now. Justice is dispensed how it is dispensed...As with most things in ArmageddonMUD it is pretty binary. You are caught or you are not caught, you survive a torture or you don't.
Making things more complex (and possibly more fun) doesn't mean the current dispensers of justice are lazy, they're simply using the tools they have available to them.
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on September 27, 2020, 02:36:10 PM
Quote from: triste on September 27, 2020, 10:25:34 AM
Quote from: CodeMaster on September 26, 2020, 04:37:21 PM
- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick
Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.
C'mon now. Justice is dispensed how it is dispensed...As with most things in ArmageddonMUD it is pretty binary. You are caught or you are not caught, you survive a torture or you don't.
Making things more complex (and possibly more fun) doesn't mean the current dispensers of justice are lazy, they're simply using the tools they have available to them.
Wouldn't take much stretch of the imagination for orders to be passed down that Allanak's population is dropping too fast, and prisoner's need to be conscripted into the army instead of killed or the like.
Quote from: Fredd on September 27, 2020, 01:25:15 PM
Quote from: triste on September 27, 2020, 10:25:34 AM
Quote from: CodeMaster on September 26, 2020, 04:37:21 PM
- Make the dungeon OOC-interesting by creating choice: make it larger, add secrets, add a coded option to fight in the Arena for your freedom, add a way to escape (escaped criminals create content); add "banishment" code that would give templars and militia a less lethal stick
Love all this, and it would certainly resolve the way justice is lazily dispensed now. More options and more content is always better.
10/10 I support this.
Banishment DOES happen IG. it has happened recently if I am not mistaken. However it isn't CODED, as far as I know. So eventually, CrimCode wears off.
The dungeon's cells should only be used for things like merchant,s or nobles awaiting a trial. The others should get a group room that's dark, has secrets, and a chance to escape. Also, the chance to be locked up with the guy you hate and choked to death.
Codedly fighting for your freedom sounds awesome. When was the last time the Arena was even used? Been a minute I think.
From my understanding you can perma crime code people.
Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on September 27, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.
There is indeed such a setting.
Quote from: HortaCulture on September 27, 2020, 11:05:15 PM
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on September 27, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.
There is indeed such a setting.
We should see more banishments. Send them out naked into the desert, blindfolded.
Banishments would result in salty, grumpy players though sadly.
Quote from: Fredd on September 28, 2020, 01:14:55 AM
Quote from: HortaCulture on September 27, 2020, 11:05:15 PM
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on September 27, 2020, 10:55:37 PM
Yeah there are toggles for amount of time and pretty sure there is a -1 setting, for the 'forever setting'.
There is indeed such a setting.
We should see more banishments. Send them out naked into the desert, blindfolded.
The difficult part is that by exercising said "setting" you are also effectively triggering every NPC guard in the area to hunt that mofo down. It gets tricky. Especially because PC's have pesky habit of fleeing reflexively and then lethal force gets deployed by the aforementioned law enforcement..
Banishment is really cool though. Being banished is pretty bad ass even if you embrace it.
Quote from: Hauwke on September 28, 2020, 03:38:48 AM
Banishments would result in salty, grumpy players though sadly.
So does dying I reckon. We're all salty like the bottom of a bag of pretzels.
I'm not sure if this could really help, I fear it will hinder more than help. I still want hear some thoughts. I know some of youn seen this on Discord.
Since Tuluk is gone and the only major city like area is Luir's, would moving all of the GMH's and the Byn's holdings to Luir's. Like in the real world, both operate as businesses. Having that said, if the said holdings move, could Allanak have competition with the Post?
To me, that fits the theme of both areas and the game itself. Heck, it could even give us a big baddie.
Sounds like it would just encourage more people to play in Luir's than in Allanak. At least right now, the GMH move back and forth en masse regularly (good for bringing gossip, raiders wanting to attack them, byn contracts, and an ebb and flow of people that can help with circulation). If they were kept in Luir's, you'd lose most of that...and I'm not sure why they would want to leave the wealth and politics of Allanak (willingly) - Luir's might have the raw materials that they need, but the market is small and mostly made up of each other or hunters/grebbers/soldiers (fine for their cheaper gear, not good for the big ticket items that they can maximise profit off in Allanak - not to mention the fact that Allanak is huge in comparison, with a much larger buying power overall, even if the PCs don't represent that atm).
I can see that going very wrong...I think I'd rather see smaller merchant houses eventually push onto the council and try to shove Salarr/Kadius out of the Outpost (not sure you could get Kurac out, prickly things they are!) and back to Allanak. That would seem like a far more logical progression, but relies on players building little merchant houses and surviving.
You are right, it hinders Allanak. The Post should say as an outpost.
The incentive for people to play ordinary mundane roles was supposed to be Karma.
Playing the roles to flavor the atmosphere up and even play a character into a death scene to blow someone else's mind was supposed to be rewarding. Your dedication to the story and ability to provide enjoyment to the players yielded more responsibility and power to tell that story.
Part of the discussion is that when people get full karma there's less incentive to do the little things. I have for awhile and still feel part of the discussion is the greater plot arc of the larger world.
Playing in Allanak (This is coming from ME, the Tuluk guy!) is and can be rewarding. There are still myriads of options to choose, I personally would like to see the houses opened in full. Hell with active raider clans there's even opportunities to hire the borsail wyverns again.
I love all the mobilization around more House roles (from Jal sewer workers to House Hunters). Currently Allanak is a case of the Haves and the Have Nots not only in terms of in game coin, but in terms of plot resources (there are Infinity Percent more noble roles open than staff supported city elf roles. Infinity more percent. Don't hate me because this is a mathematical fact given there are Zero staff supported city elf roles). If certain people literally are not allowed to play noble roles, at least open up some commoner roles.
How many people are going to say "GMH Hunters were great," or "New house roles for commoners would be great," before we see a fair shift of RP resources away from "The Top 1%" and towards the places players actually want to play.
I just want to say I respect where staff were coming from by heavily supporting Noble roles, but let the playerbase speak: Trickle-down Roleplay Economics does not work. If it did work, this megathread would not exist.
Even if Noble players are well intentioned and want their wealth and influence to trickle down, they aren't allowed to hire people for the roles in the docs. "Oh I am a great Salarri and I need hunters but I cannot hire you because of [beep beep boop a strange restrictive rule on House hiring that isn't supported by documentation]." Yeaaah we should fix this. Literally the only thing Nobles are allowed to trickle down in Trickle Down Roleplay Economics is trickling ginka sauce on concubines. And that isn't their fault (as frustrating as it is for everyone involved, even that concubine who would rather be a House Hunter than a House Whore. Again please do not punish me for speaking truth as prostitution roles are open but hunter roles are for whatever reason not.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics
I'd just like to add that restrictions can be played around. Your Borsail noble could certainly hire Amos the badass as an aide and then instruct them to organize a unit to hunt down and kill escaped muls. Your PCs title (or more to the point subordinates' titles) don't have to limit the sort of work they do. In my experience staff is pretty willing to be flexible if you work with them.
My problem with a ton of combat clans being open at one time is that most will feel dead. Every once in awhile you'll get a great leader PC who can make the Kuraci Fist something awesome. But that probably means the Kadian hunting unit and the Arm have at best a few PCs. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily but under the current restrictions an enterprising GMH leader could make it happen with Indy hunters too. There's nothing to say the relationship between Indy hunters and GMH has to start and end with 'These hides are worth 350 sid'.
I'd just like to further reiterate that I support the closer of all Noble Houses and instead adding a couple more templars and multiple active GMH family roles to the game. I think this would eliminate some of the stratification of the player base and GMH tend to have a lot more to do than noble PCs. Nobilis delenda est
"Too many nobles" isn't the issue. Not enough minions for the nobles is.
"Too many aides" isn't the issue. Not enough aides is.
There are leaders and aides who have been trying for the past year to push plots and plots and plots but there aren't people to get involved.
Blaming "too many leaders" is silly. They're trying to reward minions with plots but few are even trying to get involved. Some of you are complaining about having nothing to do but then also not even trying to get involved.
A snippet of data. Random snapshots of where folks were, summarized enough to hopefully remove IC info:
Sept 23, 5:30 pm server time
late morning Z time
Clan Space South - 3
Tribe Space - 2
Allanak - 2
Gaj - 1
Wilderness - 6
Luirs - 1
Storm's End - 4
Morins - 1
Total players - 20
No one was in an apartment.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/11
2/2
4/1
Sept 24, 11 am server time
dusk Z time
Clan Space South - 2
Tribe Space - 1
Allanak - 5
Gaj - 1
Wilderness - 1
Luirs - 2
Storm's End - 3
Storm's Eye - 2
Total Players - 17
2 PCs were in Apartments/Bedrooms in Allanak.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/11
2/2
3/1
Sept 24, 11:10 pm server time
dawn Z time
Clan Space North - 1
Clan Space South - 5
Tribe Space - 2
Allanak - 4
Gaj - 1
Wilderness - 3
Luirs - 6
Storm's End - 6
Red Storm - 3
Morins - 1
Total Players - 32
2 PCs were in apartments in Luirs. 2 PCs were in apartments in Red Storm.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/10
2/5
3/2
6/1
Sept 25, 12:20 server time
late at night Z time
Clan Space North - 3
Clan Space South - 2
Tribe Space - 2
Allanak - 6
Gaj - 3
Wilderness - 5
Luirs - 2
Storm's End - 1
1 PC was in an apartment/bedroom in Allanak.
Group sizes (size/number):
1/14
2/4
3/1
Thanks, I think seeing the numbers could help us understand the problem.
Quote from: Is Friday on September 28, 2020, 11:17:10 AM
"Too many nobles" isn't the issue. Not enough minions for the nobles is.
"Too many aides" isn't the issue. Not enough aides is.
There are leaders and aides who have been trying for the past year to push plots and plots and plots but there aren't people to get involved.
Blaming "too many leaders" is silly. They're trying to reward minions with plots but few are even trying to get involved. Some of you are complaining about having nothing to do but then also not even trying to get involved.
I speak for only myself, but after playing this game for 20 years I've found that the more you get involved with nobles the more likely your character is to get cornered in an inescapable room and killed.
After the tenth time of that happening I just kinda got sick of it OOCly. I mean it was exciting the first few times, but it has long since gotten stale.
That's honestly the only reason I avoid nobles, I don't have any others. Again, I only speak for myself here.
And it's not even that it happens that frequently, but it feels like as soon as I start dealing with the nobility I've pretty much set a timer on your character. You'll go into 10 inescapable rooms with a noble or templar and be fine, and then the 11th and bam.
To be clear, I specifically find dieing in inescapable rooms to be the problem for me, not dieing in general. I haven't had the chance to be PKed out of inescapable rooms more than a tiny handful of times (actually I can't remember any at all).
Quote from: Is Friday on September 28, 2020, 11:17:10 AM
"Too many nobles" isn't the issue. Not enough minions for the nobles is.
"Too many aides" isn't the issue. Not enough aides is.
There are leaders and aides who have been trying for the past year to push plots and plots and plots but there aren't people to get involved.
Blaming "too many leaders" is silly. They're trying to reward minions with plots but few are even trying to get involved. Some of you are complaining about having nothing to do but then also not even trying to get involved.
I want to be very clear that I'm not complaining about a lack of things to do in the game. My current PC (my first in years) has been involved in a ton of things and easily ranks in my top 3 PCs.
Minions have always been the most important thing for a noble or really any leadership PC to have. I know of at least one noble house that seems to be very active right now. I can't speak for the current nobles in game, they're probably all great, but it's a problem if players aren't gravitating to those support roles because nobles -need- them. My anti-noble rant is more about how I feel their role can be better filled by other sorts of high class PCs that don't have as many restrictions.
Is this the place to say I'd like more coded mundane jobs for commoners/poor people to do in Allanak.
Cause I think it would be cool and I see players do very niche roles already, so yes the question of 'who wants to be a farmer?!?!?' does have an answer, so having more down to earth ideas might intrigue some people and encourage money making ways in different ways than crafting an item that's almost bugged with how much it can pay out or killing an npc that has a 300 sid chest plate every reboot.
Summary: Add the cotton field code to Yaroch and make a farming job please it sounds cool.
Maybe it sounds odd, but I think there should be more roles that are NOT tied to being a noble's minion in some form. People who want to be a noble's minion will seek it out and that's perfectly fine, but if you don't want every single Allanaki character to be somehow involved in a noble's plots, there's really not much to do.
I think the lack of logging in from casual PCs can be attributed to there being no "casual" option in Allanak. It's a self perpetuating cycle if you log in, don't have the time to get involved with a 15 hour a week plot, and also don't find anyone to engage with.
More common access for "things to do and accomplish" for the low playtime player and transient population would likely fix some of it.
Quote from: Alesan on September 28, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
Maybe it sounds odd, but I think there should be more roles that are NOT tied to being a noble's minion in some form. People who want to be a noble's minion will seek it out and that's perfectly fine, but if you don't want every single Allanaki character to be somehow involved in a noble's plots, there's really not much to do.
Agreed. Tuluk did, in a way, have it with the cotton and clay picking. Allanak needs the same.
There was a time where I'd say it was way too hard to be a raider, or any kind of antagonist to Allanak. The city was full of powerful and seasoned characters waiting for a chance to be a hero, and would mobilize as one the second a mere salt forager was even threatened. Now it seems to have swung the other way, it's very easy to be a raider now, and folks wanting to play a grebber, jozhal hunter, or any kind of simple simple low class PC are going to have a tougher time in the dunes close to the city than a wanted enemy of the Templarate.
I'm not saying it's better or worse, but the true outlaw experience has definitely been lost, but other things have been gained. We players get what we want, then miss what we had.
Give Borsail a deep purse and a Wyvern slaver crew. Spec app the slave crew as fighters with boosts to all their combat skills, elite warriors with authority to contract out the byn, take muls out on patrol, and capture PC's. Whoop the shit out of these outlaws and fill the Borsail pens up. Bring some balance back, people will might start enjoy playing 'Nakki grebbers again which keeps taverns full, raiding will be more dangerous and fun, and the Allanak mercenary experience will be restored.
I've always loved to play antagonists, its way too easy now! Hunt me kill me!
"I'm not saying it's better or worse, but the true outlaw experience has definitely been lost, but other things have been gained. We players get what we want, then miss what we had."
I'll agree with you here.
However at the same time, I think there is a lack of a 'criminal experience' that can be experienced in the cities. Outdoor raiding (Aka, mugging but you are on a big bug) has the benefit of: You probably live in Luir's or Redstorm and no one will ever see your Sdesc ever again, but indoor mugging basically isn't possible because when someone looks at your 7 foot tall elf and ignores your Tdesc and the fact you're covered head to toe in a disguise, they'll walk up on you in the Gaj with a Templar + 4 soldiers going "There he is M'lord".
Anyway I want Mdesc hiding gear so city characters can have more than the standard: Damn someone stole my sword, or Damn some- *Backstabbed* experiences. There's extortion and what not but you can only do that on so many people, as extortion tends to go, but I really wanna see people be able to hold a shiv up to some silk wearing fucks in the dead of night to punish the fact they are walking around alone in the bad part of town.
And have them not codedly able to do much in the realm of knowing your sdesc, mdesc, mother's maiden name, and be able to have you whipped and thrown into the arena.
If you want good criminal roleplay join the arm of dragon. They are better thieves than most PC elves.
The "as salty as the bottom of a bag of pretzels" joke was apropos here, but it's coming from a good place. If I were to synthesize where we're all coming from here, it is that we do not like it when plots are unfairly terminated, or never allowed to begin at all even if they fit the setting.
- A couple of people want more lackeys to advance noble plots so that their plots can go somewhere.
- Some people believe uppercrust characters end more plots than they create, but rather than asking for removal they want a refactor.
- A ton of people want to play plots and roles previously removed (hunting, farming) because they were awesome.
- A ton of people want criminals to stop stealing their plot items; people who play criminals want to stop being PKed in jail cells.
Therefore, the solution is often to add options where the only options are "Plot ends forever through [death or some other gameplay reason]."
Very, very rarely is the proposed solution to REMOVE content. The idea to close apartments in Luir's, etc, is not originating from players and is not widely supported by players. I just want to reiterate where the consensus is here before any vital appendages go on the chopping block.
Much love to people putting creative ideas out there, +1 particularly to CodeMaster, Jihelu, Narf, wizturbo and others just because they happen to be advocating for the kind of plots I personally like. But I just want to say:
- Players, let's not be too salty.
- Staff, please don't remove content and take away our toys even when we're being salty and bratty. I know taking toys away from children is sometimes the right answer and easy to do when there is a huge power differential, but we actually aren't children (for the most part, parenthesis added here due to my obsessive commitment to facts) and we can decide to leave when things are taken away. We want to grow the game, not diminish it.
QuoteIf I were to synthesize where we're all coming from here, it is that we do not like it when plots are unfairly terminated, or never allowed to begin at all even if they fit the setting.
I don't know that I'd say that. 'Unfairly' is a very subjective word with shifting meanings, and generally speaking (it's even said directly on the website), 'That isn't fair!' receives little to no listening time here. I would say that a more accurate representation of what I've seen in the thread is that plot-value has risen so high that the prospect of losing plots is too high of a cost. Where old players may remember times where our characters were tugged every which-way by plots, for the current timeframe being drawn in a direction is so rare (in feeling, anyway) that whenever it falls flat it actually disappoints the hell out of people.
QuoteVery, very rarely is the proposed solution to REMOVE content. The idea to close apartments in Luir's, etc, is not originating from players and is not widely supported by players. I just want to reiterate where the consensus is here before any vital appendages go on the chopping block.
While I agree with removing content=bad, in this case it was the addition of content that was stated to have a serious change, and again, player posts regarding it kind of affirmed that. Apartment removal wasn't really the topic, it was more of a streamlining the power structure of Luir's by having the powers-that-be control access to those apartments, or at least the common ones. That actually adds content to the game, because it makes Luir's clan-centric as a living space and a hopping place for non-clannies, promoting movement and goals for both clans and indies,
as long as you can make interesting clans and clans interesting. It won't see support because as it was said, people -like- that ease of access; no one supports making their own experience harder or more remote without a bigger picture in mind.
Which still isn't to say that it's something that should be done, but narrowing it down to a bad idea because of people reacting to personal preference doesn't always encompass good for the game. Overall, I do like this discussion. It's one of the most entertaining/insightful/easy-to-engage in discussions that I can engage in from afar, which generally just keeps my interest in return piqued even if my barriers are still in place.
I am going to agree that there never seems to be enough minion caliber pcs in Allanak, which is the root of the issue. Minions also are wonderful go-betweens for GMH pcs, who show up in Allanak like a groundhog on groundhog day, "Oops, he saw His Shadow, and had to retreat back to Luir's for six more months of silence." More minion possibilities gives everyone more people to collude with and against in terms of not only engaging social peers in more active plots, but against those higher and lower. Everyone loves acting like they are running a game on a potential enemy. So, point of this part of my post is very much an endorsement of removing "clan caps" and encourage people to go wild, hiring up the playerbase. We need more Aides, Students, Bodyguards (yes I said it). All of this gets the murder, corruption and betrayal going into higher gear.
There are things like cotton picking in Allanak, none of them are sexy. Dung shoveling, salt mining, obsidian mining are all ample opportunities to make decent money in a way that fits the city thematically. They are just not very sexy. If there was some means of "middle class" sexy in Allanak, it might be a draw. Like that shop in Red Storm that encourages every subclass in the Village to have tailoring. Why not place a couple of these everyman shops in Allanak buying up the goods that flood the market: nipple rings, chests, random silk dresses? Or something more specific, but something geared toward making Allanak just a little bit more friendly to the low-effort crafter type who just wants to achieve.
Nenyuk: Now this one might cause some shaken fists or some high fives...there's a decent little tax that gets levied per deposit on people. Why not make those who are not GMH or Highborn servant take a monthly hit on their bank accounts, to account for letting vast piles of coin lie fallow in the bank? City takes a piece, Nenyuk takes a piece, and a lot of that redundant, massive pile of cash gets wiped out virtually. You don't like it? Stash your money in your backpack (Yay thieves) or in your apartment (Yay other kind of thieves), and run the risk of having it vanish? Make the coins something that are use or lose, rather than being amassed and hoarded. Make the tax rate higher in Luirs than in Allanak, encouraging people to invest in the...biggest market in the known world? Tricky, but effective, I think.
I've said it before, so may as well reiterate, dedicated GMH rep in Allanak for all the playable Houses. Having done the GMH thing, life is a lot, lot easier when you don't have to juggle Templars and the Council. You're ultimately not going to give part of it its due, and will just spin your wheels. And that's not fun for anyone. Have all production done in one location, and that means they have to move product to the outliers, giving the Byn something to do as well. As such, I'd even go so far as to say turn the GMH Council into the commoner version of the Nak Senate. Have the npcs give them baseline agenda to run around trying to fix for a RL month, review the efforts and make the change that way. Rather than trying to have four people work four schedules to make decisions that should be over their paygrade anyhow. Just a thought there. That's not "Allanak's Problem".
Fewer Noble Houses Open, More Opportunities in them: Keep three open, give them all incentive to work with/against each other on Senate level goals and agendas, let the low ranked Highborn fight for scraps and recognition, in ways that can be determined with an attaboy or execution, after a period of time. Open-ended, goal focused, story driven and glass ceiling respecting plot driving. As such, allow those Noble Houses the ability to hire unlimited Whatsits, Scorpions, Wyverns, allow minions to get in, work the agenda and achieve in line with the House Senator's wishes. You all succeed or fail together, punching up.
Random: Remove all the known spawn points for the usual critters and beasts inside and around Allanak, shake them up and then put them in places that make sense thematically, but require a bit of looking around, so you don't know that everyone is wacking the same rooftop npcs all the time, because they can. And then, once that's done...set up one of the things I am about to suggest:
More of those "barter" npcs, like in the Muark wagon: A trade off of hunted goods for finished products, even if they are all low grade. Bring in chalton hides, get better boots, whatever. But more trades where it's barter, than stuff for coin. Coin needs to regain some sense of value beyond just being a gigantic virtual number sitting in the Banker's hands, doing nothing.
And lastly, this one relates not to Tuluk as an enemy of the City and a great antagonistic force, but the market. The cities have code in place where items have higher or lower values based on what is being sold. One of the coolest things was preparing a trade run, from north to south or vice versa, where you had to be very aware of what sold best where. Instead of "sell it no matter what". Perhaps expanding Morins to include a larger market, maybe, but that doesn't fix Allanak. I think Allanak just needs that counterbalance commercially, in terms of import/export being more than just "I can sell chests to the stores that buy pants? That's awesome."
More than a couple 'sid. But it doesn't matter, 'sid is meaningless.
This could be tossed into it's own post. But one of the serious problems I see, is that one character doesn't feel much different from the next anymore.
The new classes and subclasses allow one PC to do everything. An Adventurer/mage Can have solid enough combat skills to hunt, craft, and they can do magick. Change mage to a stealth class, and now you have hunter, crafter and burglar/assassin.
The old classes allowed your next PC to feel different.
The Ocotillo Festival starts, and on a Thursday no less. Suddenly 50 people are logged in, and there is a whole horde of mostly long lived Allanaki pcs I havent seen since the last RPT.
Something about this feels wrong. If it isnt noble rp you arent interested?
Agreed, it seem to only benefit the Leadership PC's and their minions. This also includes the Byn and Arm of the Dragon.
I feel like it gonna to be the same with the Senate RPT.
But then again, this was stated in the thread once or twice. And outside.
Pretty much every RPT benefits the Byn in some capacity. They are designed that way.
That said, it really is a joke that half of the long lived PC's only come out for a big RPT, especially since many of those people are in leadership or higher than commoner positions. You aren't a good player if you spend all day willingly logged out until something happens or your buddy on discord asks you to.
Edit: Removed a little vitriol, I was feeling a tad passionate.
I think this comes and goes in waves. Sometimes there is lots to do because whoever is playing the leader characters are really great at creating interesting and fun projects for their minions - and that attracts more minions, which propels "fun things" further. Sometimes though, the minions are already serving some other leader character, doing their own projects, and the newer leaders have no one available to serve them. So that leader flounders, and that clan is given a reputation for being boring.
It's not boring. It's just going through that stage waiting for "players who WOULD want to be in that clan's" PCs to die and bring their new PCs into the game.
Every single existing clan in the game right now could be hoppin, AND every single independent character in the game could be kept busy and entertained. But the timing never syncs up. That's the nature of a game that's played 24/7. Sometimes all the cool people are over "there" and you create a PC for it - and then that leader dies and suddenly it's not as cool as it was. Hopefully the new leader will be equally cool (or cooler) but the transition takes time.
And of course sometimes a clan will have a leader who stinks at leading a clan. Darwin's theory works well here. The really bad ones will cull themselves out eventually.
Sometimes a leader's player has to be somewhere, or was sick, or they had to evacuate from fires in the west, or was an emergency room staffer during the worst of the pandemic, and didn't have time or energy to play. So they finally show up and help to create and run a big to-do, but everyone thinks they were only interested in the game to do big to-dos.
But the playerbase as a whole needs to be more patient and durable, I feel. Yes there's a point where you cut bait and pull anchor, take your boat to another clan or part of the game. But I feel people are doing that too quickly. Or worse - they might have observed a clan floundering with one PC - their next PC shows up and they decide immediately that they won't allow their character to have any interest in joining that clan.
Well - maybe you're the reason the clan would've been so amazing. And you're failing yourself, and the game, by choosing to stay away from it.
On the OTHER hand - maybe you're the one who makes clan life difficult, but you insist on joining the same clan with new PCs over and over again. Sometimes that can suck the life out of a clan, having the same "flavor" of drama repeat itself with every new PC who shows up.
tl;dr: there are TONS of variables that go into the "why this city needs..." or "why Allanak is..." or "how can we make Allanak great again." Those variables vary with every single character approval, and every single character death. Every. Single. One.
There is definitely something to be said for good, solid leadership PC's in various clans and how that affects the atmosphere. If I am intimidated but having fun at the same time, you are awesome and thank you very much.
Blanket kudos to people who play leadership roles that put energy and love into it. Thems roles is hard. You're the best.
Agreed with HortaCulture: if you love 'em, send them a kudos!
Just wanted to touch on the whole "You aren't a good player if you spend all day willingly logged out," and tie that in with something others have said earlier. We need more ways for people who are busy IRL to get involved in plots in a meaningful way. Some people have proposed a psionic message inbox, or assistant leadership roles that require less time commitment. I love this game, but phrases like "You aren't a good player if you spend all day willingly logged out," and the implicit playtime requirements for a lot of roles makes my skin crawl. We lose great, intelligent players when we bully them for being busy and not logging in as much as they "should." Please invite these good people to play, even rarely, rather than shitting on people who have hobbies and obligations in addition to ArmageddonMUD. And if anything add features that make the game more playable if you only have a few hours a week or even only a few hours a month to spare.
We want more people to play, not less! If someone says "You aren't a good player" because you don't log in frequently please just ignore them, I still love you and might see you during one of the five hours I log in a month as well (because as Lizzie mentioned I am busy evacuating my friends from wildfires and shit, literally).
You all can just @ me next time, I guess.
Playtimes for leadership have a minimum requirement. Staff keep an eye on that and give leeway to RL when it comes up. Genuinely: playing a leader for a long period of time (or multiple over years) can be very draining.
I personally get a lot of fulfillment for producing content or fostering RP for other people. That's why I enjoy playing leader PCs. However, I'm not beholden to any of you. If you demand my PC's time for 4+ hour scenes, kidnap them to your secret lair, or get impatient that my PC isn't running a 1 on 1 GM session with you -- you're ludicrous. I refuse to allow my enjoyment of the role or make the game be contingent upon pleasing a bunch of (often) ungrateful players.
I'll meet the requirements set out by staff playtime wise. I'll RP well. I'll lead the clan with my PC.
But I don't work for you.
A Clan Leader's Perspective:
1. Wandering around looking for rp and pcs spam walk to avoid you, or you visibly see them go another direction to not be in your path.
2. You sit in a tavern, ready to settle in for a session where maybe people seek you out to find some fun, you're spotted from a distance with your npc guard, and they go elsewhere.
3. Same situation as #2, but you take a knife to the neck within minutes of showing up.
4. Same situation as #2 but you realize while sitting there, with your guard, you suddenly are light keys, coins, that nice knife and any packages in your belt, as all your containers are open.
5. Same situation as #2, and people walk through, bow and walk on. Giving you zero to work with.
Hate to say it but, let's be honest, role play sessions are a two way street. If leaders are hard to find, it's likely because they are getting beat down by something listed above. Not just once or twice, but some combination of all of those, literally every single time they log in. Roleplaying a clan leader, and Friday is right, is a commitment between Staff and the Player chosen, with a time investment that is agreed upon. It's a two way streets, you can say they suck for not seeking you out and engaging you personally, but there are an awful lot of ways (I just listed five) where the opposite is also true.
I understand and agree with Friday, Spiderman, and staff here as this wasn't the point I was making. Separate point, but yes, I agree, some roles have playtime requirements.
But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.
Quote from: triste on October 02, 2020, 12:51:32 PM
But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.
Now I don't mean to speak for all leader players (past or present) but if I have a minion that I can count on for 5 hours a week -- that's a good minion to me. Just let me know when you'll be available and I'm going to put your PC to work -- productive goals that contribute to the overall plots.
IMO if you're playing a leader and you can't "use" low playtime PCs, you need to re-evaluate how you're leading your clan.
Quote from: triste on October 02, 2020, 12:51:32 PM
I understand and agree with Friday, Spiderman, and staff here as this wasn't the point I was making. Separate point, but yes, I agree, some roles have playtime requirements.
But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.
I think what you're looking for is some sort of staff queue "role call" where they put out a call for random, short term flavor pcs that are designed with a shelf life. Two weeks worth of antagonistic former Legion Sarge, looking to go out guns blazing, a dwarf who's focus is counting down and must be accomplished, a bastard of an npc Noble who has to make contacts to confront dear old dad and has to foster communications.
Just a bunch of weird, random story-focused and short term concepts that can be checked off for low availability players who would otherwise be great clan leaders, with the intention of just giving weird and immersive interactions to whomever they cross paths with.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 02, 2020, 01:00:13 PM
Quote from: triste on October 02, 2020, 12:51:32 PM
But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.
Now I don't mean to speak for all leader players (past or present) but if I have a minion that I can count on for 5 hours a week -- that's a good minion to me. Just let me know when you'll be available and I'm going to put your PC to work -- productive goals that contribute to the overall plots.
IMO if you're playing a leader and you can't "use" low playtime PCs, you need to re-evaluate how you're leading your clan.
Another good reply, but it implies that if you have low playtimes you can only play minions and I am tired of that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friTOL7FlIo
I liked the assistant Sergeant idea someone had. I am grateful for roles like gicking as well where you can have low playtimes or off-peak playtimes and have impact.
Assistant Sergeant = Corporal/First Trooper.
Quote from: Spiderman on October 02, 2020, 01:02:47 PM
Quote from: triste on October 02, 2020, 12:51:32 PM
I understand and agree with Friday, Spiderman, and staff here as this wasn't the point I was making. Separate point, but yes, I agree, some roles have playtime requirements.
But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.
I think what you're looking for is some sort of staff queue "role call" where they put out a call for random, short term flavor pcs that are designed with a shelf life. Two weeks worth of antagonistic former Legion Sarge, looking to go out guns blazing, a dwarf who's focus is counting down and must be accomplished, a bastard of an npc Noble who has to make contacts to confront dear old dad and has to foster communications.
Just a bunch of weird, random story-focused and short term concepts that can be checked off for low availability players who would otherwise be great clan leaders, with the intention of just giving weird and immersive interactions to whomever they cross paths with.
Staff do make role calls like this semi-regularly.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 02, 2020, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: Spiderman on October 02, 2020, 01:02:47 PM
Quote from: triste on October 02, 2020, 12:51:32 PM
I understand and agree with Friday, Spiderman, and staff here as this wasn't the point I was making. Separate point, but yes, I agree, some roles have playtime requirements.
But a lot of us simply do not have the minimum 10 hours a week needed for leadership roles. Other players mentioned that we should have more roles that can accept less than 10 hours a week and still be meaningful and they are completely right as well.
I think what you're looking for is some sort of staff queue "role call" where they put out a call for random, short term flavor pcs that are designed with a shelf life. Two weeks worth of antagonistic former Legion Sarge, looking to go out guns blazing, a dwarf who's focus is counting down and must be accomplished, a bastard of an npc Noble who has to make contacts to confront dear old dad and has to foster communications.
Just a bunch of weird, random story-focused and short term concepts that can be checked off for low availability players who would otherwise be great clan leaders, with the intention of just giving weird and immersive interactions to whomever they cross paths with.
Staff do make role calls like this semi-regularly.
I mean beyond the mystery role calls, I mean an actual sign up queue that staff puts a few players on, where they reach out to the player, not the other way around.
Again, I've done that. Two way street, there. I have reached out to clan staff and asked "Hey I was wanting to play X role in the future. Can you let me know when that becomes available?"
Reply: "Yeah sure."
*two months later*
Staff to Friday: "Hey you still wanna play this guy?"
OR
Staff gets back to my request in a week or two and says "This doesn't really fit with the game world because Y. How about X role, which is similar and might fit?"
----
Long story short: I think a lot of the headache or feelings of restriction about being limited is really only as limited as a player's ability to communicate with staff. Staff cannot know what you want to play. So ask questions and you might get an okay once in a while.
(https://i.ibb.co/dfR2W5Z/exp4.png) (https://ibb.co/j8SM6rt)
(https://i.ibb.co/nQTVxVd/exp3.png) (https://ibb.co/Yf6KHKn)
(https://i.ibb.co/M6R1dj8/exp2.png) (https://ibb.co/BNg6k74)
(https://i.ibb.co/tDmHCpC/exp1.png) (https://ibb.co/jD684k4)
Quote from: Spiderman on October 02, 2020, 12:43:44 PM
A Clan Leader's Perspective:
1. Wandering around looking for rp and pcs spam walk to avoid you, or you visibly see them go another direction to not be in your path.
2. You sit in a tavern, ready to settle in for a session where maybe people seek you out to find some fun, you're spotted from a distance with your npc guard, and they go elsewhere.
3. Same situation as #2, but you take a knife to the neck within minutes of showing up.
4. Same situation as #2 but you realize while sitting there, with your guard, you suddenly are light keys, coins, that nice knife and any packages in your belt, as all your containers are open.
5. Same situation as #2, and people walk through, bow and walk on. Giving you zero to work with.
Hate to say it but, let's be honest, role play sessions are a two way street. If leaders are hard to find, it's likely because they are getting beat down by something listed above. Not just once or twice, but some combination of all of those, literally every single time they log in. Roleplaying a clan leader, and Friday is right, is a commitment between Staff and the Player chosen, with a time investment that is agreed upon. It's a two way streets, you can say they suck for not seeking you out and engaging you personally, but there are an awful lot of ways (I just listed five) where the opposite is also true.
I will say I noticed this on my Salarr GMH leader -- If I lingered in public to try to facilitate RP and just be a presence, I would be robbed of anything valuable within about 5-10 minutes. I had two separate instances where Guild PCs contacted me 10 minutes after I noticed things were missing to ransom it back. While it's a nifty plot in a way, it's also...I dunno. Discouraging from just sitting in my compound and dealing with the 10+ PCs demanding my attention there, rather than sitting in public and the PC having a drink and possibly recruiting people, etc.
IMHO, what this draws back to, is Miscreant is BAF (Broken as Fuck). There needs to be a way for people to spot hidden people that isn't just scan. Or some tavern rooms need to be toggled no_hide. Sorry thieves. I know it's rough for y'all, but it's stifling actual plotting and RP.
You should to play a pickpocket/miscreant and learn how easy it is to make your PC theft-proof. The only reason you keep getting your shit stolen is probably because you're the only ones not doing it and nobody else has ANYTHING stealable or worth stealing.
Large/heavy items cannot be stolen. Worn items cannot be stolen. Certain containers are very hard or impossible to peek in. If you're a GMH leader have access to safe storage at your clan compound where you can leave any diamond-encrusted daggers when you go out to someplace that may have filthy miscreants. Show off your diamond-encrusted silk dress instead, or a nice warhammer or whatever.
I can't even remember the last time I stole from a PC because gdb posters overreact and seem to think that there's something wrong with the game if they aren't theft-proof in the Gaj. It sucks.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 02, 2020, 01:08:20 PM
[snip]
Long story short: I think a lot of the headache or feelings of restriction about being limited is really only as limited as a player's ability to communicate with staff. Staff cannot know what you want to play. So ask questions and you might get an okay once in a while.
I'm seconding on this. Just happened to me a while back where both the staff and I came to agreement on role that I could play that's insta-clanned from chargen.
Quote from: Is Friday on October 02, 2020, 01:00:13 PM
Now I don't mean to speak for all leader players (past or present) but if I have a minion that I can count on for 5 hours a week -- that's a good minion to me. Just let me know when you'll be available and I'm going to put your PC to work -- productive goals that contribute to the overall plots.
IMO if you're playing a leader and you can't "use" low playtime PCs, you need to re-evaluate how you're leading your clan.
As a player who probably has maybe 5 hours a week to play, I really appreciate that there are people out there who are totally fine with that level of commitment. If it means I play characters that are only peripherally involved in larger plots, that's fine, I'm just happy to be involved period.
Random thought from a perma-newbie though: is the game and the RP-enforced nature of the MUD actually detrimental to making sure that everyone is properly aligned on playtime commitments/expectations/schedules? The obvious answer here is "yes of course, that's what the OOC command is there for", but even then the help guide on the OOC command literally says "try to use the ooc command as little as possible,
preferably never" (emphasis mine). If I have to spent ten minutes figuring out ICly whether or not the tressily tressed GMH leader is asking me, the real player behind the keyboard, if I'm available weekends for X hours in a specific timezone, and even THEN still not having clarity about whether or not I'm being asked to show up from 1900-2100 GMT every Saturday or whatever, there might be a problem.
Quote from: Barsook on October 03, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on October 02, 2020, 01:08:20 PM
[snip]
Long story short: I think a lot of the headache or feelings of restriction about being limited is really only as limited as a player's ability to communicate with staff. Staff cannot know what you want to play. So ask questions and you might get an okay once in a while.
I'm seconding on this. Just happened to me a while back where both the staff and I came to agreement on role that I could play that's insta-clanned from chargen.
It is a nice idea, but in the name of facts I will dispassionately and factually report a scenario where this type of request had a different result: I saw certain NPCs in game, asked if I could play the same concept as those NPCs, and staff said they actually made a mistake with those NPCs and retconned the content so that neither NPCs or PCs like that can exist now.
Not saying the staff did a bad thing here or discriminated against me here, just saying that the outcome of this type of request will not always end with your dreams coming true and you being able to play what you asked for -- even if the role in fact existed in game when you asked.
Quote from: Drone on October 03, 2020, 08:35:48 AM
As a player who probably has maybe 5 hours a week to play, I really appreciate that there are people out there who are totally fine with that level of commitment. If it means I play characters that are only peripherally involved in larger plots, that's fine, I'm just happy to be involved period.
Random thought from a perma-newbie though: is the game and the RP-enforced nature of the MUD actually detrimental to making sure that everyone is properly aligned on playtime commitments/expectations/schedules? The obvious answer here is "yes of course, that's what the OOC command is there for", but even then the help guide on the OOC command literally says "try to use the ooc command as little as possible, preferably never" (emphasis mine). If I have to spent ten minutes figuring out ICly whether or not the tressily tressed GMH leader is asking me, the real player behind the keyboard, if I'm available weekends for X hours in a specific timezone, and even THEN still not having clarity about whether or not I'm being asked to show up from 1900-2100 GMT every Saturday or whatever, there might be a problem.
Forget the bolded part. For my money, if you need to break scene and ask an ooc question about playtimes, do it. We will work it out.
Having played a few leaders, I can say I would rather have you play 5 hours balls to the wall than go into it wary and uncertain you are welcome. YOU ARE WELCOME. HELL YEAH.
What WarriorPoet said.
When it comes to real life playtimes, OOC that shit all day. You don't have to tell me your whole schedule but a OOC: I can only be on on X days usually, or something else...is really fucking useful. Especially in a clan role.
In fact, I hope you've OOC'd someone if they are a very important employee to you, Aides/etc, to find out if your playtimes are even somewhat compatible. Ya'll don't both have to live in the same state but if you NEVER see each other you might as well be pen pals.
Hey, yes, I'd like to meet you in.... two half months, three days, two hours and a few moments.
Or:
OOC: Hey, tomorrow, 9PM ST work for you?
I'd rather have the latter. So second WP and Jihelu here. 8)
The latter for sure.
Agreed. Tell leaders when to sign in so they can drag you into chaos, minions. *evil laughing*
this is why clan forums are important. A lot of people don't seem to care about them anymore.
But if I'm your leader, I want to know where my outliers are. Who are my folks not getting scene action? And What can I do in their time bloc that would be fun?
OOC any pertinent info you need, especially with availability. Your baby sick this week? Ooc me.
Don't know how to do something codedly? OOC me. I will sit there and layman's term a help file for you, and walk you through it until you get it.
My only hangup about it, is that I prefer to do such things in a private setting, so it doesn't interupt other peoples RP.
Clan forums de-anonymize you. Unless you can make an alt for every character, eventually people will know who you are every time you join a new clan. Some people don't mind this, some people want to be known, but others would rather keep the anonymity that guarantees there are no OOC shifts in interactions, positive or negative, that would not otherwise be there if you remained anonymous.
Quote from: Alesan on October 06, 2020, 05:29:35 PM
Clan forums de-anonymize you. Unless you can make an alt for every character, eventually people will know who you are every time you join a new clan. Some people don't mind this, some people want to be known, but others would rather keep the anonymity that guarantees there are no OOC shifts in interactions, positive or negative, that would not otherwise be there if you remained anonymous.
Thanks for pointing out this issue; would love a forum system where you can choose to be anonymous or appear as your character name and others have supported similar ideas. Would help engagement / the topic at hand.
Quote from: Fredd on September 29, 2020, 09:18:59 PM
This could be tossed into it's own post. But one of the serious problems I see, is that one character doesn't feel much different from the next anymore.
The new classes and subclasses allow one PC to do everything. An Adventurer/mage Can have solid enough combat skills to hunt, craft, and they can do magick. Change mage to a stealth class, and now you have hunter, crafter and burglar/assassin.
The old classes allowed your next PC to feel different.
+1, they are too jack-of-all-trades.
I normally make an alt account for clan GDB and often will never post even then. I do not like them and only even ask for access because sadly, that is where the docs live now...something else I do not agree with.
I am perfectly happy to use OOC IG for pretty much anything that it is needed for.
Quote from: Alesan on October 06, 2020, 05:29:35 PM
Clan forums de-anonymize you. Unless you can make an alt for every character, eventually people will know who you are every time you join a new clan. Some people don't mind this, some people want to be known, but others would rather keep the anonymity that guarantees there are no OOC shifts in interactions, positive or negative, that would not otherwise be there if you remained anonymous.
They don't de-anonymize you. You -can- make an alt for every character, it's allowed and even encouraged. Most people don't care one way or another. But if you do care, you do have options. If you don't make use of the options and just don't post your availability, you'll be overlooked more often than not when it comes time to arranging scheduled RPTs.
If an RPT involves just my clan, or if I'm only responsible for my clan in a multi-clan RPT (and other clan leaders deal with their own clans), then I'm going to use the clan GDB to do those arrangements. I won't do it in the game. That's what the clan boards are for. For the OOC arrangements of things that get really clunky and disruptive if you have to go OOC with each player you deal with in-game (especially when they log in at different times of the day).
Quote from: Lizzie on October 07, 2020, 09:24:09 AM
Quote from: Alesan on October 06, 2020, 05:29:35 PM
Clan forums de-anonymize you. Unless you can make an alt for every character, eventually people will know who you are every time you join a new clan. Some people don't mind this, some people want to be known, but others would rather keep the anonymity that guarantees there are no OOC shifts in interactions, positive or negative, that would not otherwise be there if you remained anonymous.
They don't de-anonymize you. You -can- make an alt for every character, it's allowed and even encouraged. Most people don't care one way or another. But if you do care, you do have options. If you don't make use of the options and just don't post your availability, you'll be overlooked more often than not when it comes time to arranging scheduled RPTs.
If an RPT involves just my clan, or if I'm only responsible for my clan in a multi-clan RPT (and other clan leaders deal with their own clans), then I'm going to use the clan GDB to do those arrangements. I won't do it in the game. That's what the clan boards are for. For the OOC arrangements of things that get really clunky and disruptive if you have to go OOC with each player you deal with in-game (especially when they log in at different times of the day).
For every character? Really? Is it confirmed from staff that we can have literally unlimited GDB accounts?
Quote from: Alesan on October 07, 2020, 10:09:05 AM
For every character? Really? Is it confirmed from staff that we can have literally unlimited GDB accounts?
Yes.
Quote from: mansa on October 07, 2020, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: Alesan on October 07, 2020, 10:09:05 AM
For every character? Really? Is it confirmed from staff that we can have literally unlimited GDB accounts?
Yes.
I will keep that in mind, thank you.
You just have to have a unique e-mail address for each account IIRC. But most e-mail services allow you to have a whole lot of e-mail addresses, so it's basically unlimited.
Quote from: Lizzie on October 07, 2020, 01:13:31 PM
You just have to have a unique e-mail address for each account IIRC. But most e-mail services allow you to have a whole lot of e-mail addresses, so it's basically unlimited.
You can circumvent this with email aliases. All you need is one gmail account (or similar). Register as username+whatever@gmail.com and all mail goes to username@gmail.com. One email account for multiple GDB usernames. When thomoto learned this trick a little while back on discord his joy was palpable.
Quote from: triste on October 07, 2020, 01:32:41 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 07, 2020, 01:13:31 PM
You just have to have a unique e-mail address for each account IIRC. But most e-mail services allow you to have a whole lot of e-mail addresses, so it's basically unlimited.
You can circumvent this with email aliases. All you need is one gmail account (or similar). Register as username+whatever@gmail.com and all mail goes to username@gmail.com. One email account for multiple GDB usernames. When thomoto learned this trick a little while back on discord his joy was palpable.
Interesting. So for clarity, when you are creating a new GDB account, this alias+email string is entered in for the email field? That's all you need?
Quote from: Alesan on October 07, 2020, 02:07:51 PM
Quote from: triste on October 07, 2020, 01:32:41 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 07, 2020, 01:13:31 PM
You just have to have a unique e-mail address for each account IIRC. But most e-mail services allow you to have a whole lot of e-mail addresses, so it's basically unlimited.
You can circumvent this with email aliases. All you need is one gmail account (or similar). Register as username+whatever@gmail.com and all mail goes to username@gmail.com. One email account for multiple GDB usernames. When thomoto learned this trick a little while back on discord his joy was palpable.
Interesting. So for clarity, when you are creating a new GDB account, this alias+email string is entered in for the email field? That's all you need?
If my gmail is trashboi@gmail.com and I have a character named Talia I tend to register on the gdb with an email alias like trashboi+talia@gmail.com. You get emails for PMs etc as normal.
Edit for more clarity: the email+alias trick is known to work for gmail, but some major services like outlook do not support it. I believe in outlook you can alias with quote marks but it has not been tested. Only gmail aliases have been tested and shown to work when registering here.
Edit for thoughts on the original topic: the GDB for clan comms is a working system but not ideal.
Fastmail does support this.
I don't have the seniority to chime in intelligently on a lot of the points this excellent thread has raised. When I started playing Arm, Tuluk was already a misty place of semi-legend. However, I have grappled with how to rp with as many folks in Allanak and still be playing realistically. Highlord knows I haven't always gotten that balance right, either.
The hierarchy of Allanak is rigid as all get-out, which is fine. A major facet of the issue as I've experienced it is how silo-ed that can make everyone. I don't have answers yet, but I'm still looking, and the intelligent analysis of this thread has me more hopeful and motivated than before it started. =)
Ultimately, we're here to play, to tell a story, and at least inside the city, that pretty much means interacting with others to some degree.
Quote from: Saiseiki on October 13, 2020, 12:45:40 AM
I don't have the seniority to chime in intelligently on a lot the points this excellent thread has raised. When I started playing Arm, Tuluk was already a misty place of semi-legend. However, I have grappled with how to rp with as many folks in Allanak and still be playing realistically. Highlord knows I haven't always gotten that balance right, either.
The hierarchy of Allanak is rigid as all get-out, which is fine. A major facet of the issue as I've experienced it is how silo-ed that can make everyone. I don't have answers yet, but I'm still looking, and the intelligent analysis of this thread has me more hopeful and motivated than before it started. =)
Ultimately, we're here to play, to tell a story, and at least inside the city, that pretty much means interacting with others to some degree.
Seniority schmeniority, your point here is valid on silos.
It brings to mind also the hot topic people were debating and complaining about last year: people playing isolated roles, and not taking risks. It was something people felt was on the rise / experiencing an uptick, and it is certainly a factor here.
I was talking with my sibling who has also played Armageddon for years yesterday about why we don't play anymore. My sibling said, "When the world is so fucked up IRL, it's hard to dive into a game where the expectation is that everyone is going to be an asshole to each other. I was in the mood for it last year when I was surrounded by fake nice people, but now I am not as into it." Player silos, and indeed players deciding not to play at all, may in part originate from the same place as the "uptick in isolated roles" we saw last year. Certain hierarchical silos are penetrable, but often when you penetrate into them your reward is death. When I came back from my hiatus, I saw so many aides get killed it was practically a meme, and when I commented on it the player base basically responded with "Yeah, aides get killed a lot, it's been that way forever."
Why the heck would anyone want to break into these silos if your reward is often to get killed in a back room?
Once cheesy, dogpiling, code abusing shit like that happens to you once, it's human nature to avoid it [for all but the most masochistic]. The only way some players might interact with an insular, murder-happy clique at this point is if they are forced to by way of a plot.
Now, Armageddon is a harsh game, and I love that about it, don't stop making it harsh. But this gets back to the whole "We need overarching conflict," request in this thread. We need reasons for these different RP silos to interact, and we need code and mechanisms that make conflict and interaction between silos interesting. We got close to that with the PBRPT where Templars and high born folk needed to mobilize commoners for a war; war isn't the only way to get silos interacting, but it's an effective example among many options.
I posted a meme that succinctly summed up all the points above on our current state of political roleplay, but a lot of people complained about it so staff removed it. Often jokes like that are controversial because of the truth within them. "The source of all humor is not laughter, but sorrow." "The human race has only one effective weapon, and that is laughter." Another meme by another player was taken down for probably the same reason mine was, and like mine was probably well intentioned and meant to elegantly elucidate the problem and allow us to laugh at it. But the argument at the core of these memes is the same argument players have been making for years (and basically since Tuluk closed): we need more engaging plot arcs than "Oh it's
High School Spirit Week Luir's Fest next week and next month we're having
Pajama Day a gambling tournament, and if you're mean to the
student body council Garrison during any of this you will be
suspended murdered." I used Luir's/Garrison here to show it's an issue common to the whole game, not just Allanak.
Zalanthas is a harsh desert world, but that does not mean it's a roleplay engine for the same petty crap we deal with IRL, but with more stabbity stabbey murder. There are 50 more compelling ways to honor a harsh setting than having scattered cliques where people are "assholes to each other." Indeed, when there
was broader conflict this game was not the "desert edgelord simulator," "pk mud," "murder hobo" party people critique it to be now. Harsh, desert world does not mean a world full of sociopathic murder hobos. Murder hobos are welcome, but a planet cannot exist with a 100% murder hobo population. I've seen the conflict in this game rise to much more than that in the past and we can aspire to that again. Players have mentioned a lot of mechanisms for achieving this [refactoring crim code, rethinking what is open or closed for play] and I'd love to see the game get out of a rut it's been in for a while.
And I just want to say I am bringing up the highschool metaphor not to be dismissive or antagonistic, but merely because it's the state of things and a good metaphor for the game as it is now. If the only RPTs are High School Spirit Week style RPTs, I am simply going to avoid those like my punk ass did in highschool IRL. Maybe I'll start a plot to vandalize signs advertising Spirit Week because Spirit Week is stupid and not interesting to me, but more likely I am just going to avoid it. But not all of high school was stupid to me, I participated in poetry readings that lead me to even get published and hang out with US Poet Laureates: maybe this is why I liked Tuluki bard roleplay and dearly miss it. Yes, not all of highschool was stupid to me, I was also on the wrestling team: this might explain why I loved Gladiator RPTs and dearly miss those. Lastly, I almost joined my school's football team [but didn't because I would have been the only chick on the team at the time], but even football games are a more compelling events than Spirit Week -- Americans love that shit, and Europeans love soccer because it's a proxy for regional conflict which, again, this game once had in the form of Allanak vs. Tuluk but no longer has.
So now we are only left with RPTs reminiscent of High School Spirit Week, but what point does pride in your school colors have if there is ultimately no reason to wear those colors proudly into conflicts and plots.
We're left with HS grade roleplay, but don't even have all the options represented therein.
Ideally, Armageddon can have even more interesting plots: it takes place on an alien planet with multiple moons, is full of mind and body altering plants and substances, prowled by beasts like Silt Horrors and Rocs and the hunters who hunt them, ruled by monolithic and magick empowered governments that still cannot reign in a sprawling and nearly infinite diaspora of tribes, host to slaves and slave uprisings, hideous gith, sorcerors and psionicists, why can't we think of more interesting things to do than sip wine and have auctions for lacey doileys?
And this gets back to my last plea that many players in this thread have echoed: generally, cutting content is NOT the solution. Some of the awesome grandiose shit in setting above WAS once playable but now is no longer. What we need are more options, not less.
QuoteAnd this gets back to my last plea that many players in this thread have echoed: generally, cutting content is NOT the solution. Some of the awesome grandiose shit in setting above WAS once playable but now is no longer. What we need are more options, not less.
While true, I also think it pointed out that different people have different ideas of what 'cutting content' is exactly. That likely sounds strange, but I think it's fundamental cause of players misunderstanding or disagreeing with each other.
I thought limiting apartment space would be adding content; it adds things to strive for, reasons for plotting, methods of control and bribery, and essentially becomes more of a plot device. Others view it as a gate, a removal of access, a loss, something that detracts from options. And there are probably plenty of places between this interpretation and that interpretation, which leads to arguments about consolidation vs spreading out, etc.
I don't think we'll get very far in any solution-seeking discussion until people are thinking about it not just in their own terms, but from terms that are as wide-reaching across those perspectives as possible.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 13, 2020, 03:06:51 PM
QuoteAnd this gets back to my last plea that many players in this thread have echoed: generally, cutting content is NOT the solution. Some of the awesome grandiose shit in setting above WAS once playable but now is no longer. What we need are more options, not less.
While true, I also think it pointed out that different people have different ideas of what 'cutting content' is exactly. That likely sounds strange, but I think it's fundamental cause of players misunderstanding or disagreeing with each other.
I thought limiting apartment space would be adding content; it adds things to strive for, reasons for plotting, methods of control and bribery, and essentially becomes more of a plot device. Others view it as a gate, a removal of access, a loss, something that detracts from options. And there are probably plenty of places between this interpretation and that interpretation, which leads to arguments about consolidation vs spreading out, etc.
I don't think we'll get very far in any solution-seeking discussion until people are thinking about it not just in their own terms, but from terms that are as wide-reaching across those perspectives as possible.
Definitely agreeing with the idea that we need to appreciate everyone's perspective on this.
The gatekeeping topic is interesting, and one way to honor multiple perspectives is to try to itemize pros and cons and the magnitude of those pros and cons.
Pros of your proposal (as an example):
- Plots and intrigue as you mention.
- More rewarding because what you got, if you get it, is more rare.
- Instead of a low value resource being available to everyone with the minimal coin needed, a medium value resource is now available to a medium size group of people with more coin and influence, which probably means higher value items for thieves to steal.
Cons of your proposal (as an example):
- Playtime becomes a gatekeeping factor in getting an apartment, because renting is no longer easy and automated.
- Playtimes (plural) become a gatekeeping factor, because you might be an off-peaker while whoever controls the resource is not.
- Player abilities become a gatekeeping factor: you either have to be some sneaky who can creepily see who lives in apartments and way them, or speak the same language as whoever is hoarding apartments, etc.
When I see a pro and con list like this, I think, we need to find a third solution. Who wants to simulate renting in the middle of a housing crisis? Alright, maybe some of you do, but ask any recent resident of San Francisco, Manhattan, or anyone who is homeless and they will agree this situation is distinctly un-fun.
What's un-fun about being homeless? The gatekeeping keeping you out of a house! That's why mechanisms exist IRL, like bidding and housing market diversification (even the world's poorest economies have shanty towns), to address this. And these mechanisms exist organically, they emerge out of necessity when not fettered by arbitrary constraints like what we have. Therefore the solution might be to add more options rather than just cutting content or making it more inacessible to more people.
Incidentally I love that you mentioned "a gate" as potentially being a good thing, because this was something else my sibling and I mentioned being a bit discontent with in Armageddon: the gatekeeping. For every secret, awesome thing in game -- such as say a magickal ability that can only be used with certain rare components -- only 2% of the playerbase or so who will get to see it. Which is fairly awesome, and something I accept for rare lore and "game secrets," but I wish it was closer to 5% or even 8%, and that the gatekeeping were a little less harsh. If you have low play times or other constraints, your chance of seeing this content is near 0%. It might help player retention if we nudged that likelihood up. The gatekeeping of apartments situation, the notion that the hoarding of apartments and grey-market transfer of apartments is somehow a good thing shows just how severely we've accepted that this game is about gatekeeping. I don't think it's friendly to new players, international off peak players, or players with low playtimes.
On the subject of apartments.
When I started playing, they did not exist...did not matter. And almost no coded clans...actually, I think there was none.
Few years later a very small number existed, controlled by a nenyuk PC....(This was the best time IMO) Good number of coded clans, all rather popular.
Shortly after, few more apartments, still run by nenyuk PC...did not seem to help or matter much. Other then, same number of coded clans but seemed slightly less popular.
Nenyuk PCs gone a few years later, apartments automated...Almost never used them. But number of clans and apartments the same, well, one less clan :) Seemed stable enough.
Currently, lots of apartments, some warehouses.....To me does not matter, I do not need them. But even with fewer coded and playable clans they seem even less popular. So I can see where people might see a link.
If I was in charge I would experiment with it. I would drastically lower apartment numbers, say To at least half what they are now, I would have none limited to clans etc but only to the VERY high fee I would have the ones with real security...and they would not be large...but VERY hard to get into. IE strong locks, roaming guards and a desk room with several guards and a locked gate.
Meanwhile a small number of cheap ghetto rooms as well.
One fun thing about the low number of nenyuk PC controlled apartments days is...Well, there tended to only be two ways to get one of the like 5 apartments in nak.
I would then add small but secure rooms in clan compounds for those that have rank, life oath, whatever happens to be required in that clan to live in luxury. Possibly, in cases like the Byn or AOD, garrison, trooper/private could rent (at a low cost) A small cubby with cot and locker and reasonable security.
I would also re-open hunter or other crew slots in the clans that should have them...with a solid cap to numbers. One of the more fun things of being in a merchant/noble house was working against the competition. We used to do so many bad things to Tenneshi in winrothol, and to Oash with Tor, to Kadius and Kurac from salarr. ETC ETC
First, thanks for the history and context! And again I respect how the PC managed approach can be appealing, but also see why it necessarily changed.
Quote from: X-D on October 13, 2020, 06:42:17 PM
I would then add small but secure rooms in clan compounds for those that have rank, life oath, whatever happens to be required in that clan to live in luxury. Possibly, in cases like the Byn or AOD, garrison, trooper/private could rent (at a low cost) A small cubby with cot and locker and reasonable security.
I would also re-open hunter or other crew slots in the clans that should have them...with a solid cap to numbers. One of the more fun things of being in a merchant/noble house was working against the competition. We used to do so many bad things to Tenneshi in winrothol, and to Oash with Tor, to Kadius and Kurac from salarr. ETC ETC
I love, love, love all of this (just say "re-open hunter" five times and I'll start quaking and quivering), and +1 to all of this (all y'alls ideas rock usually).
Well, like I said, there was a short time where, when apartments went automatic there was essentially the same number of them and I did not notice any real change to the game in general other then not having to find that lone nenyuk PC to get an apartment. Automated apartments better IMO.
But I am All for apartments being back in HIGH demand like during nenyuk PC days. I am against the Oh you have to be in this clan or that one for one of these apartments...That is what clan compounds are for, give them "apartments" There, maybe even for a reasonable price if they have the right rank. Leave in warehouses, Have like 3 apartment buildings. 1 with 5 small HEAVILY guarded rooms for like 5k per month, the next with 5 small rooms, much lower guards but locks almost as strong as the high end apartments for about half the price. I would also add in a bit of code to make those two buildings "clans". You rent a room there you are clanned Swank apartment renter. This would allow the NPC guards to act properly towards intruders.
Then a building with 8 VERY low end apartments in the last building, no guards, maybe 3 levels of locks...none very good.
And that is for Nak.
Luirs and Storm I would also cut the numbers in half and have a single "building" Each with no more then 6 apartments, but with at least two Silly high priced ones with Silly good locks. You want into the Swank safe Storm apartment, get in good with the primary renter or make them go away one way or another.
QuoteDefinitely agreeing with the idea that we need to appreciate everyone's perspective on this.
The gatekeeping topic is interesting, and one way to honor multiple perspectives is to try to itemize pros and cons and the magnitude of those pros and cons.
To be clear, I think I am a minority perspective here at this point, I'm just a vocal one. This will be long-winded and ramble-y in true Armaddict style, filled with off-the-cuff analogies, but we'll see how it sits. Mostly, when I talk about this opposing perspective, it's not because I believe everyone needs to just fall in line with me, but that I believe the balance is out of whack because of some relatively simple things that impact a whole lot of things 'above it'.
TL;DR: The aversion to things like gates are because of a substantial 'drift' of the playerbase as options have been made available that took more prevalence over the course of time than they were originally meant to. The game isn't being played improperly, and people are not roleplaying poorly; there are just inherent elements of the game that cannot come to fruition purely because of this shift in player preference and perspective. To fix it doesn't require anything heavy handed, it just requires an appreciation for and an allowance of these core conditions of the game.
Full Version:
You can view today's Armageddon as either the product of a massive genesis, or as an example of a mass exodus. I don't mean in terms of players coming and going, because that's a natural state of any long-lived creation; it waxes and wanes, it changes, and it preserves itself. I mean in terms of departure from the overall narrative of the world we interact with. I've the suspicion that most people view Armageddon as the former. We're on an evolutionary path, and we leave behind vestigial parts of lore or game-theory or concept that are either non-contributors or something that can be harmful if not removed. For some cases, that is clearly the case. My perspective is the latter. I don't believe changes are always bad, but I believe there are bad changes. I don't believe that people are playing a different game, but I believe that some features, additions, and modifications left core elements of the Armageddon experience behind.
First analogy: Consider the average character narrative in Armageddon. The 'Armageddon for dummies' version of the game that we all like to tell new players when they join up, and we tell it with great enthusiasm and happiness that they've arrived. It's like a road map. We have a very highly prized 'main street' that winds and curves, it doesn't go in a straight line. We lined it with shops and attractions. Join a clan. Play in this location. These classes play easier roles, wait to play these classes that play more lore/game-knowledge heavy roles. This will maximize your interaction and storytelling, with an increasing scale of both combined with increasing danger the more turns of 'main street' you go around. Don't worry that it gets hard, or that you die, or that there's strife, or that you're afraid for your character; these are clearly-defined parts of the game, right down to being in direct competition with other players over scant resources. Always fear what other characters will do to win.
But simply put...main street becomes crowded. There have always been alleys, side roads, and short cuts that were quiet. Off the path. Sometimes they were based on getting ahead in some weird way. Sometimes, they were just about getting off the beaten path and doing your own thing. This is -particularly- prevalent for those who are looking for new experiences in the game, or off-peak players, or people who just -don't like the crowd on main street-, and over the course of time, we've built more of these. Options. Conveniences. 'Better ways' that offset the detriments of traveling main street. They are, quite frankly, often awesome...but the result is that over time, there's a near-scramble to avoid main street. All those attractions and shops and things become derelict over time. We implement glass-ceilings and see entire curves cut off of main street. Some turns of main street even start to look entirely nonsensical, because there's a blockade that way and a side road over here. This road map of prime narrative of the game suddenly doesn't even make sense anymore, not because of anything in particular, but because these side roads that have nowhere near the flesh of the main street just became shorter ways to the same place, with prettier views to boot!
This is my mass exodus of the game. You're in the game. You're playing it well. You're doing what people would expect you to do, particularly as you do experience different parts of the game. But as a whole, it means we've left the narrative behind and are now scratching our heads...all we know is that over here is better than over there, because there is nothing even -happening- over there anymore.
The Allanak ProblemThis is the Allanak problem to me. If Tuluk were still around, the problem would be present in both places, I think, but less so in Tuluk due to surroundings, and making the problem shallower in both since in the end, the two always had each other. But we removed Tuluk, without creating an atmosphere in Allanak that was conducive to the same interactions. And then we added side roads to make those other places still available in the game more suitable for those wanting those atmospheres that Tuluk left as a gaping void. The problem is...they aren't on main street. Allanak is the purest form of main street left in the game, and it saddens me when I hear things like 'People steal from you there' or 'the political intrigue there often ends in death' or 'Templars are overdoing it'. Allanak wasn't better or worse in the past; it was just one of two places that was truly -convenient- to base out of. Jobs were there. Conflict was there. Opportunity was there. Shops were there. Enterprising groups looking for adventure based out of there.
We've bolstered the infrastructure of our side roads without making it fully part of main street. That's why I'm saying this isn't 'nerf Luirs!' or 'make people die again!'. It's that we've gotten comfortable with the idea of being off the path that was incredibly reliable for creating danger, regret, joy, sadness, loss, and excitement, and that path is the one with built-in strife, challenge, hardship, and both dependency -and- suspicion. We've cut out -whole swathes- of main street and made the road that replaces it to the next curve dull and easy to walk along in comparison. The staff have eliminated Tuluk and overarching conflict and direction, and also the natural drive and motivation for progress along main street (i.e. glass ceilings and power limits). But we, the players, have eliminated the appreciation for toil, luck, failure, and surprises because we're cramming into convenient sideroads that aren't fully developed. They are rural roads, and we consistently have complaints about the lack of a city life (metaphorically speaking, of course). These things we're missing are not gated, sequestered parts of the game that require unnecessary time; they are goals, locked achievements, and points of direction for a character to move towards, obstacles be damned.
The Storytelling NarrativeWe talk about this game as a storytelling game, and it really, genuinely, -truly- is. Part of the beauty of that setup, though, is that it isn't -your- story, or -their- story, or -his- story, or -her- story...it's a complicated weaving of all the stories intermingled into the Zalanthan epic of neverending dystopia. It's heroic stories buried under villainous pretense, and villainous stories that end up being anti-hero stories, and low-fantasy stories tossed into the midst of what-the-fuck-is-going on stories. That makes it -spectacular- to partake in, as long as you embrace it to whatever degree you can manage to tolerate loss and failure. When we twist it into -my- story, or a progression-only based story, all of the linked-in stories suffer.
If we were authors, we aren't building the epic. We're building threads of a giant tapestry. Sadly, only staffers are really privy to the vision of that tapestry, but even they can't see it all at once. But they get to eagerly watch this story and that story catapult towards each other on this terrible-or-amazing trajectory...only to have it cut short by who-the-fuck-is-this-guy-and-where-did-he-come-from?! But then they look at that guy. He conveniently wrote bios (I never write bios, sorry!). They look at his friends, and look into -his- clan...holy shit, -this- guy is awesome too! What's -he- doing?!
We aren't building the epic. We aren't on unfettered paths of progression until we get to point B...we're actually removing all of our own point B's, just as surely as they're being removed from the game. We -are- building the 'holy shit, -this- guy is awesome too!'.
Summing it up. This has not been a genesis to where we are, in need of 'fixing' the evolution. This has been an exodus away from our willingness to tell awesome stories in favor of controlling as much of the story as we can. Embrace the envelopment of the side roads into main street. Embrace the weird balance of player and character and circumstance that make for the unexpected, the difficult, and the unexplainable. We play the red-shirts that end up not being red-shirts. We play the heros trod underfoot by the epic already in motion. Please, for the story, stop embracing the convenient; just be glad when it shimmies its way up for air in your character's hard-fought, grit-filled, ultimately meaningless existence that propels the story -out- of meaninglessness.
Quote from: X-D on October 13, 2020, 06:42:17 PM
On the subject of apartments.
One fun thing about the low number of nenyuk PC controlled apartments days is...Well, there tended to only be two ways to get one of the like 5 apartments in nak.
Your memory dims as your years climb, XD! (Yes I can tell him that, he and I are the geezers of this game).
When I played a Nenyuk PC, there was "that tenement building" where the Aide apartment building is now. There were hm - 6 apartments on the first floor, and 6 1-room apartments on the second floor, plus that room with the curtain that didn't close, plus the 2-room apartment down at the end. The curtained one wasn't rentable. It was just a curtained room. On the ceiling in the first floor hall was a faded mural that was an "extra" description - you could look at it and see a general idea of what it had been before it faded (some kind of circusy looking thing if I remember right). So that's 13 rooms in a single building, each for rent.
Then there was the building down near the Oash Elite barracks, the one that got destroyed in the spider plotline a few years ago. That was a 3-room home; a foyer with a cabinet, a kitchen with a built-in granite countertop sink and cupboards, and a bedroom loft upstairs. I wrote all the descriptions for it during an IC renovation project. And up on Ruk's Way there were two, before Ruk's way stopped connecting to Caravan (remember that?). Another one in the Elemental quarter across from the Drov temple I believe was reserved for the NPC templar who lived in it, but it's possible it might have been rentable at one point before I came along.
There were two on Stonecarver's between the Plaza and the furniture guy.
There were two 2-floor luxury homes on Theyak's, and all the one-room crappy buildings with crappy doors you see along Wall and down on Dragon's whatever were rentable. There was also that freaky always-dark one near the Templar quarter gate, that was cursed by that Drovian chick who lived there.
There were two near the bazaar - one where the aide apartment building is now, and the other around the corner to the northeast.
So that's around 2 dozen rentable spaces in Allanak. They were always full, though at one point, one person was renting three of them and I had to put the kibosh on that. Templars would order my PC to reserve three for their aides and favorite soldiers or what have you, plus their own place they'd rent, plus whatever room they had available in the templars quarter that Nenyuk had nothing to do with. So there were rare occasions when only 3 or 4 people were paying rent on all of those apartments. It got to be a headache. I'm pretty sure that's one of the biggest reasons why they automated: it was way too much OOC work to keep up with it IC, and it wasn't quite as much fun when your entire logged in play time was spent scrambling to not piss off a templar because there weren't any vacancies and the only person you could kick out was another templar's aide.
The tenement was a player creation
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913)
It went in around 2002, from what I see on account notes. Some of the period X-D is talking about would be before that.
Armaddict's post is very beautiful and inspiring, but it hurt reading "We play the red-shirts that end up not being red-shirts," because some people play this game for years, play red shirts for years, and never get to "not be a red shirt." This is a fact. People state this when they quit sometimes. I used to have sufficient play times to be "not a red shirt," but now I am finding you can only be a red shirt by the rules of role applications when you have less than 10 hours of playtime a week and that sucks. Gate closed. We need to drop some of the myths of "main street" as Armaddict calls it and be clear about some of the huge gates right in the middle of the street:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/26/cf/d026cfcaeab56568dc0ca02b09bd1643.png)
Yeah, better get off main street and find a side road, good thinking! We have to empathize with the people locked out and not participating. This is why I make the points I make because we have to make sure everyone gets woven into the "tapestry" of the story; the fact is we have a lot of dangling threads who are advised to just... suck it up and deal with it, or give up and fall away. You talk about weaving tapestries as if there is some magic lady at a loom weaving everyone into the story equally, but the weaving definitely isn't done in equal measure and it's looking a little... rough from the state of things.
Saiseki's point on silos elucidates this and was spot on. [edit] Duh, I think that was also the point you were making with the mainstreet/sidestreet and tapestry coming together metaphor. Yeah. Agreed. Silos and cliques suck. Weave people into your plots, even if they are an off peaker and so on. Also, have a variety of scenes for people to be woven into us because not all of us are into whatever banquet scene or whatever is being woven at the time.
Really well written post Armaddict.
I think some recent IC events make me believe the Main Street is alive and well. The Senate comes to mind as an especially awesome thing - I really hope this becomes a frequent event, perhaps annually so players can count on it! But with all that said, I hope we continue to lean in on that. It's important that the side streets remain open... we don't want people who are trying to escape main street have no where to go, but main street is more critical for the health the game when it comes to staff and player
focus in my humble opinion.
Here's my take on what should be the "main street" of Armageddon:
- The Arm of the Dragon and the Templarate
- The Allanaki noble houses
- The Greater and Minor Merchant Houses
- [Insert current antagonist clans] (maybe they change over time due to IC events)
Anything not on that list should still exist, still potentially influence main street in interesting ways, but should come with the understanding that support is more likely to be limited. That's just my two cents.
Quote from: Brokkr on October 13, 2020, 11:22:21 PM
The tenement was a player creation
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913)
It went in around 2002, from what I see on account notes. Some of the period X-D is talking about would be before that.
Amazing necro, Brokkr.
Though reading through it reminds me a lot of the EotW plots and how nifty they were. And also all the players that haven't logged in since 2009 :(
Quote from: Brokkr on October 13, 2020, 11:22:21 PM
The tenement was a player creation
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913)
It went in around 2002, from what I see on account notes. Some of the period X-D is talking about would be before that.
Ah okay! I didn't start playing til the end of 2001 or the start of 2002. I remember my first posts on the Arm forum, which was in a totally different format, were in 2002. But I'd been playing for awhile before I even knew they existed.
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on October 14, 2020, 01:51:03 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 13, 2020, 11:22:21 PM
The tenement was a player creation
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5835.msg559913.html#msg559913)
It went in around 2002, from what I see on account notes. Some of the period X-D is talking about would be before that.
Amazing necro, Brokkr.
Though reading through it reminds me a lot of the EotW plots and how nifty they were. And also all the players that haven't logged in since 2009 :(
*boggles at the thread* I think my brain broke a little, reading a good chunk of that thread. Oi, that's a
lot to live up to! Great to see the kind of scope this game has, though. Wow.
Something we have face up to, is that part of the problem is the community.
In the space of a month I learned about 6 PKs. All of them without much reasoning, and a good chunk of them without any real RP, not even kill emotes.I've seen noble pc's kill each other's Aides for absolutely no reason other then they are an aide to someone they don't like, and they can kill them. I don't know when this became the standard. But it's really hard to argue a roleplaying setting without much roleplay. Other parts of the world seem calmer. But Allanak seems to be the "PVP Free Zone" these days. And who wants to play that? I remember the days of betrayal, of plotting to ruin your enemy by destroying their plots. Killing eachother only as a last resort. Now its all "I call you into a backroom, you can't refuse, and you die, haha" or " I know you are less then a month old IG, but I'm killing you...Because I can."
Things need to change. And it needs to start with how we play this roleplaying game.
(i'm using the term 'learned' loosely. To avoid saying things that are considered to IC)
Quote from: Fredd on October 14, 2020, 01:56:27 PM
Something we have face up to, is that part of the problem is the community.
In the space of a month I learned about 6 PKs. All of them without much reasoning, and a good chunk of them without any real RP, not even kill emotes.I've seen noble pc's kill each other's Aides for absolutely no reason other then they are an aide to someone they don't like, and they can kill them. I don't know when this became the standard. But it's really hard to argue a roleplaying setting without much roleplay. Other parts of the world seem calmer. But Allanak seems to be the "PVP Free Zone" these days. And who wants to play that? I remember the days of betrayal, of plotting to ruin your enemy by destroying their plots. Killing eachother only as a last resort. Now its all "I call you into a backroom, you can't refuse, and you die, haha" or " I know you are less then a month old IG, but I'm killing you...Because I can."
Things need to change. And it needs to start with how we play this roleplaying game.
(i'm using the term 'learned' loosely. To avoid saying things that are considered to IC)
How does someone come to know about all those pks, the reasoning behind them, and the emotes surrounding the PK itself? I've been playing quite a bit since April and don't know anywhere near that much about what is going on amongst the playerbase at large.
To bring it slightly more general, I don't understand the desire to lower the amount of PC v PC combat that some times leads to the death of some number of PCs. That's just a good time to me, whether on the winning or losing end. On top of that, there is always a story behind it, whether it be some grand political scheme, or your PC just wakes up, drinks a shot of whiskey, then heads out to do the day to day job of salt grebbing. Next thing it knows it is fighting off, i.e inputting as many commands as fast and accurately as possible so that your PC doesn't die, a raging mul that came riding in out of nowhere. Don't see an issue at all in either case from an RP point of view. Especially in that mundane case. Either your PC makes it out alive, and it has a story to tell, or it dies and the taverns of the nearby city are abuzz about a raging mul killing grebbers.
So maybe the above isn't fun for some players of the game, but it is to me.
In short, if you want your PC to start slashing up a motherfucker with a bone sword, my PC will be ready for you.
I agree a bit with Spider and a bit with Fredd on this as it is all a matter of degree. But I agree with Fredd that it goes too far in this case:
Quote
Now its all "I call you into a backroom, you can't refuse, and you die, haha" or " I know you are less then a month old IG, but I'm killing you...Because I can."
This is when the murder-happiness goes too far and ends too many plots. Indeed, myself and others have noticed how characters that "may be a threat" are terminated sooner rather than later out of laziness (OR to put it more forgivingly, out of a lack of other options) and an unwillingness to deal with the plots that troublesome character might create. Example, I had a northern PC framed and PKed in a locked room in Allanak for no other reason than it was convenient to other players within weeks of arriving in Allanak... It was a good scene I do not regret having it, but this happened after it already happened to me three times in the same year. Some people are just on the receiving end of this shit stick a lot, many threads have popped up about it and offered solutions. I love the ideas CodeMaster floated in this thread for giving people more roleplay options than the all too common and disappointing scenario Fredd describes.
We are not asking for kid skin gloves, and a kinder, cuddlier Armageddon. We are asking for mechanisms that are more likely to interweave plots, because our current mechanisms consistently terminate certain kinds of characters (and sometimes terminates the interest of players who like to play these characters). If certain concepts are playable in terms of in game mechanics and documentation, ideally those concepts can be... playable for more than a few weeks without getting PKed in a back room.
I have a character concept in the hopper that I REALLY WANT TO PLAY, but I am afraid to because it is one of those concepts that, once discovered, most people believe must be killed at all costs. And sometimes I fear the motivation to kill certain character concepts as quickly as possible is more metagaming related than roleplay related.
Because I want to be positive and because we CAN be the change, I just want to convey much love to a recent military clan PC we had who wasn't murder happy and let people go more often than not. The punishments this character devised were creative and plot generating, not plot ending. It just occurred to me I may have never formally kudosed them so I will get on that soon!
Bringing this tangent back to topic clearly, Gentleboy, OP of this thread, a relatively new player but a great roleplayer, once mentioned in discord that it can feel like more interesting, outside the box characters tend to get PKed more. A lot of people debated that this had to do with adhering to the setting / social structure within the group, but let's be real. A lot of us have been there as new players; the way in which some characters are culled can feel absolutely unfair and brutal. I wonder how our results with player retention, etc might change if people just spent 40 minutes to say, "Alright, we'll throw you in the Arena and let you fight for your life," versus `>call guard;order guard kill rinthrat` or however guard calling works. In the first case you have an event, a turning point at which the plot can branch out two or three or ten ways. In the second case, you have awkward spam of unlocking doors for NPCs in a back room so they can run in and kill you, and other flat command related echoes. In the first case you engage and provide some (usually interesting) roleplay to more than five people, usually close to twenty people. In the second case, you provide roleplay to absolutely no one outside of that room, and less people walk out of it than went in.
Eh. The locked door thing...while I recognize it sucks, it's also an event that a lot of the time, I'm not sure how people die to it so much. You guys really gotta understand that in real life, you wouldn't go to a meeting with some powerful dude you thought might kill you, either. It's even an play in cinema. If things feel like traps, stop walking into the trap expecting some -other- story to pour out of it. Make the manhunt, it's better. Treat meetings as they are, high-risk ventures totally dependent on a sense of courtesy and honor that -really might not exist-. This is not people shortchanging a story, this is just depending on story to make really weird behavior of making yourself vulnerable justifiable.
Now, if it's simultaneously intertwined with a giant betrayal, where you're behind a locked door -and- it was a place you felt really safe in? That's kinda checkmate on their part. That's how betrayal often ends. That is the whole trust part of the game. I won't say this is the most spectacular awesome death, it's pretty feels bad, but to call it something that just needs to go away because of feels bad is precisely what I'm talking about in my last post. Even if you're trusting of other players to do good scenes, don't trust their -characters- to be in a locked room with yours, jesus. That is so far away from the Zalanthan world I can't even comprehend. The worst part of those deaths is usually the 'I KNEW IT WAS A BAD IDEA' after. It sucks that escape is so hard in this game in that scenario, and so easy in other scenarios. It sucks that these buildings are as hard to get out of as they are to get into. But that's just...stuff we already know.
Likewise with older PC's killing younger ones. Like they're only supposed to kill if it's a fair fight? They're supposed to go out of their way to find reasons to leave yours alive? This is, again, the push towards...-my- story. -Mine-. Not the narrative of the game as described or structured. Not the zalanthan epic. Anyone targeting newer players or characters tends to get theirs. Far more often, I see people behave in ways where they know they're stepping on toes, but then getting upset when there's retaliation done in ways they don't agree with. And it's all because of that -my story- thing.
And I recognize that this might come off as harsh, but my whole post was how the above thinking is entirely natural for those situations, and it will take an actual opening of awareness to -accept- those parts that feel bad in order to reverse the movement away from that high-impact narrative. You will lose characters. You will experience danger, fear, suspicion, hardship. You will get pissed at things. And as a result, more things will happen. There will be collaboration out of necessity and distrust out of necessity and betrayal out of fear and manhunts out of desperation. That is what adds events to the game. Not a passive agreement to keep everyone as happy with their characters as possible.
Quote
They're supposed to go out of their way to find reasons to leave yours alive? This is, again, the push towards...-my- story. -Mine-. Not the narrative of the game as described or structured. Not the zalanthan epic.
I fully understand what you are saying here. And in many regards you are right. I guess my concern is how we are supposed to manage the fact that some players are often--if not always--on the losing end. I guess I am wondering how to feel when I see players quit with the complaint that they cannot have a lasting impact on the game world, because I know they ARE good roleplayers and COULD have a lasting impact but are being denied the chance to just due to luck, or the certain kind of characters they play.
The best advice I got when I complained about always playing characters that get tossed to the bottom of the pecking order was, "Play a concept you don't usually play -- even those you despise." And I have tried this, but the feeling of masquerading with privilege is just something I... don't like to play. I grew up poor and mixed race, and surprise I love playing 'rinthers, half-elves, and other sketchy types with glass ceilings inches above their head. I just can't stomach the other side of the fence, so I keep playing the game of "You have a 1/10 chance of being a viable rogue/criminal type, a 1/10 chance of having an epic worthwhile death, a 2/10 chance of some random ass death, and a 6/10 chance of dying in a jail cell." Yes, those odds fit the setting. But I just wish, wish, wish the probabilities for "epic worthwhile death" and "killed in a locked room," death were inverted or tweaked a little bit. I'm a masochist and I can take it, but I know for a fact people in the same "always at the bottom of the pecking order" boat as me have given up.
It's really hard for me to explain these things without sounding super critical and accusatory and inflammatory. To anyone reading this who thinks I'm totally bashing the way you play Arm, please recognize I'm not. It's a lot less of 'change what you're doing' and a lot more 'accept these things in this world'. If you do the latter, I think there's a natural incorporation of it into interactions that allows for the player-to-player collaboration on the top level, tempered by the player-attachment motivations, sunk down into the character-to-character emotional/survival complex.
I think there are a lot of shitty deaths in the game. I think there are a lot of shitty deaths in Zalanthas. I don't think we play the special ones so much that it can be erased without removing key elements of the character life. If we find code solutions to these sort of situations, I'll analyze them the same as anything else and hope that it provides more capacity for enjoyment. But in most cases...dying in a locked room is not so much different than running out of movement one room too early to escape an aggressive npc in the wild. It's a misstep that cost you something. A moment of 'dammit, I should have just stayed put'. The difference is that we expect the player to act differently than the rest of the world, because they should care about us, their fellow player. And that kind of agreement when pushed too far really does remove a lot of things from the game on the character-driven-event level.
I don't even believe these 'high narrative' components that I keep referring to as main street are absolutely absent from the game. I think we've just hit a point that the dissatisfaction with parts of them bled into dissatisfaction with the game as a whole for having it there, instead of recognizing the struggle, the let down, the harshness of it actually be the game. Like it feels like we're trying to -beat- the harshness and come out on the other side in a nice, stable place. And there -are- a lot of staff-down changes that got made that I fully hate, but man, this game was seriously the -best- at my actions providing my own content in completely unforeseen ways when I was playing, precisely because of how willing other people were to go straight at me with a malicious vengeance that would make horror movies envious. It's what made playing cunning, honorless elves so fun.
Quote
The difference is that we expect the player to act differently than the rest of the world, because they should care about us, their fellow player.
I want to clarify that this is not what I am asking for. I am asking for a remedy to what many people have identified as "a lack of trust," and "siloing." This thread is about how Allanak has gone quiet. It therefore doesn't seem prudent to argue in favor of quiet death in locked rooms. At least a public execution allows your old foes to throw rotten petoch at you and lets your friends bite back tears as they watch. I agree with all your points besides quiet deaths in back rooms because we want the city to stop being quiet, and am glad you can concede new code mechanisms are at least worth considering. Again CodeMaster and others have offered great ideas, and I have seen great ideas over the years. I am also thankful for all the nifty code staff have written to provide options, but for years players have wanted more consideration given to how crime/politics often play out.
what might be interesting as an experiment is to open Tuluk or some other similar place (with less old lore baggage maybe) but with:
- no interaction in or outside it with the rest of the game world, blocked completely in every way
- no special characters or roles, everyone has the same options - it'd be especially good for newer players because there wouldn't be the feeling of not really having much chance against the higher powered roles and I think often they don't seem to have particularly interesting RP ("belch hur hur cast order order cast") and be very focused on game mechanics and fighting
(it could also make it a nice place for a change so people don't have to be thrown into the same plots and characters again for a while)
Also:
Seriously, make it less wishy-washy on the website and have a rule that RP is required, make things more interesting:
Quote from: Night Queen on March 31, 2020, 02:51:58 PM
It seems like there's two prongs that need different solutions, 1. The people that say they aren't able to trust - which can lead to doing things that actually makes it worse for everyone (above (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55215.msg1044415.html#msg1044415)) - get rid of the encouragement of contacting other players from the forums and bring chat back to the site 2. The rules page (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Rules) doesn't mention killing explicitly but instead it's left as a grey areaQuoteRoleplaying is a requirement on Armageddon MUD. This involves assuming the role of a character of your creation, and acting the way your character would
- I've seen mentions before on the forum that it's frowned upon for people to kill for little justification and that staff will step in, but even having seen it talked about it before I can't think of what to put in the search to find those posts again, let alone someone that hasn't read about it before, and no way to search easily through staff posts :)
Maybe some of these crappy situations maybe could've been better if people had been more forewarned? Maybe something like this, brainstorm something better, or against having something like this? From some of the comments in this thread:Quote from: example that is NOT on armageddon.org/help/view/Rules2. If your character is going to attempt to kill another character, roleplay that is not combat alone and a reasonable story justification is expected that is supported by your character's background or past history, whether it be through some level of roleplay with the other character (preferred, this creates a more interesting story for other players, you might also want to think how you would prefer to be treated on the receiving end) or use of the in-character "think" or "feel" commands.
At the moment also there's no mention of think, feel, or biographies in the Intro page for new players on the website, no mention in the Character section or Roleplaying page too
Quote from: triste on October 14, 2020, 05:59:39 PM
At least a public execution allows your old foes to throw rotten petoch at you and lets your friends bite back tears as they watch.
I don't remember half of my character deaths. Or heck, even most of them. Of the five I do remember...one was locked in jail and murdered (there was RP, but no escape and no warning and it sucked), second was locked in jail and murdered (there was RP, it was dramatic, I saw it coming, I knew ripples would come from it, the reason why it happened sucked because it was blatantly OOCly motivated, but the death itself was satisfying after the fact), third I died when my internet went kaput one room after leaving a gate (that sucked, and I am still salty about it!), fourth was back in a locked room, did not see it coming at all (hidden foe, blindsided, which was fine, I expected to die, but the timing was all over the place, and it was 'more naff than I expected it to be', for want of a better wording), and fifthly, I got my ass dragged to the Nursery and tossed in (which sucked, but it involved betrayal, backstabbing, and the right response, there was RP going on, and that method of dying allowed for both spectacle and making peace with it). Not in any order what-so-ever.
I don't remember anything else. But my point is...death in locked rooms is pretty sucky, and suck even more when it is just two of you (having witnesses that can be 'affected by' it). Deaths via public execution are far more fun...there is time for saying last goodbyes via Way, hopes for rescue, other people get involved and have their stories changed by it. That is all RP, even if you're a trigger point that is no longer involved...which takes some sting out of losing a character.
So...witnesses and the feeling like your death has ripples, are, what to me, makes for a good death. Which the Arena/Nursery/etc helps bolster. Heck, I'd like bind code so you, Templar Awesome, could tie-up your nasty little criminal rinth-rat, grab some AoD and Bynners, and go toss them somewhere near a monster outside the gates, and let them get eaten. Enhance story for those that aren't dying...helps with the sting of those that do die....at least from my perspective.
As far as apartments go - turn on crimcode for fighting/murder. Neighbors should be calling the guards over noisy murders/sparring/crafting. Especially if there are plenty of guards on the street outside.
Truth be told, I've disliked Allanak for longer than some of you have been alive.
My last attempt there: had a grebber char not long out of chargen, he was ordered by one of those uniformed PCs to go clean out the stables.
I'm at my keyboard thinking - What in the flying fuck. I'm the only PC around. Is that supposed to be fun?
Some games I don't like - Monopoly is one. I don't play it. Won't play it. Nobody can make me play it. I'm also one of the biggest "don't give a shit what YOU do" people you will meet. So enjoy whatever makes you happy. Me do chores for busywork? Hell no.
If you enjoy RPing cleaning out a toilet then more power to you. I own a house. I cook. I clean toilets. I even make my own soap.
RPing chores just makes me think of all the useful things I could be doing with my time.
The biggest value Tuluk had over Allanak was you didn't have to hate fellow inked citizens. You could go in the Sanctuary
and talk to a noble, templar, aide, breed, elf, anyone and not be made to feel like you were a bad RPer for not following the docs.
Hell, your grebber could loosely associate with a house (forget what they called it), maybe even rise to a noble (before they got rid of the grey hunt).
There was a girl/woman, a long lived PC, the daughter of the baker in Tuluk. I enjoyed every time we interacted (multiple PCs of mine) even though we weren't close. Last time I saw that PC was in Morins before she went to join Kurac (if I'm remembering correctly). I would not play that kind of PC but she represented what I enjoy out of the game - a temporary creative writing partner. I am not a fiction writer, I have other skills. She was a good writer, made me up my emote game whenever we talked, and I sent Kudos. Contrast that to someone who gives you an order to do a chore and walks away.
When the coronavirus lockdown happened last spring, I had more free time than I can remember and there's a lot of interesting
stuff going on outside Allanak so the game isn't a total loss without Tuluk. Just wish I hadn't wasted so much time figuring out these newfangled classes and finding those IC plots. But the IC/OOC problem is another opinion and I've hit my quota on internet opinions for this month. It's not like I have time to play much anymore anyways.
There are a few things that I let hinder my experience to Arm, one that I relate to.. Had my house robbed.. any kinda elfin pick or the thought of a thief use to draw from my immersion.. Took work to find ways around it.. if I was in your shoes with a fresh char, I would of probably just grabbed a fist sized ball of dung and hurled it at the back of his head.. even if I had to run to get em'.. Getting use to/finding ways to drop life stresses /something I am burned out on is something that Arm helped me have and that helps me let stress go even when I am not playing..
First, sorry for all my replies, and that a lot of them are mostly +1s. I do wish the forum had a "like this post" feature or something sometimes.
Quote from: Cordon
Getting use to/finding ways to drop life stresses /something I am burned out on is something that Arm helped me have and that helps me let stress go even when I am not playing..
Word, immersive RP an hobbies like this rock for that!
Quote from: RavingTregils
The biggest value Tuluk had over Allanak was you didn't have to hate fellow inked citizens.
This, for sure, as well. I have mentioned this a few times over the GDB and discord and I fully agree. It just allowed for more roleplay across classes.
Quote from: RavingTregils
Contrast that to someone who gives you an order to do a chore and walks away.
Riiiight? But for better or worse, that is "good" Allanaki roleplay. Armaddict and others would say that is by design that highborns and Templars need to be derisive of commoners and walk away. They are roleplaying well by the docs. This position is correct, but is it the most playable or fun? Not necessarily all of the time.
I didn't play in Tuluk all of the time, I played there maybe 1 out of every 4 characters IIRC. But it was a nice change of pace. Nightqueen's idea is might be a way we can try to restore some of that dynamic if we want to. We've all said it a hundred times but the contrast and juxtaposition of Tuluk actually made Allanak feel grittier in a lot of ways. It's also been said a hundred times that Allanaki politics has experienced "Tuluki-fication" recently -- that is nobles are more concerned with crumpets and courtesans more than conquests
outside of the city. I wonder that it at all has to do with Tuluk -- a clear foil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foil_(fiction)) or adversary to Allanak -- being removed.
Huge class divide roleplay can be fun, as Armaddict beautifully advocated. I like the class divide roleplay, but a lot of people are not in the mood for that all of the time, and I totally respect RavingTregils for their stance and straight up hating Allanak. Shockingly, letting people like RavingTregils play Krath-damned northerners actually made things more fun for people who liked to be a gritty Allanaki 100% of the time, northerners make great shooting practice. Win win! But more seriously, different, large political systems allowed them to be
greatly different by contrast, and it also had Luir's caught right in the middle of the tension in a compelling way. Tuluk was a great foil, and relief, from class divide roleplay that also allowed Allanak roleplay to be more gritty, more in the darksun-apocalyptic-Armageddon theme.
QuoteRiiiight? But for better or worse, that is "good" Allanaki roleplay. Armaddict and others would say that is by design that highborns and Templars need to be derisive of commoners and walk away. They are roleplaying well by the docs. This position is correct, but is it the most playable or fun? Not necessarily all of the time.
This is rather short-sighted, to be honest. Break it down to that single event, and there's basically a few choices.
1) I am loyal, a true believer, and this is what I have been asked to do. For the highlord! (Generally speaking, this is why these personalities are -boring-.)
2) Shit. Better get to it because of this fucker. (Wariness in the future ensues, lack of true loyalty grows, self-edification motivation grows, circle of 'possible interactions' expands due to lower dredges of society and anti-loyalists becoming more understandable)
3) I'm gonna fight this guy, (You probably die, or you escape and join a whole circle of people who would totally fight that guy) or bolt. (You have established a grudge, complete with a full on antagonist who is going to take your life away because you are not a stablehand).
4) Start to do it. Mutter, groan, think about it, then sneak off. The beauty of this is that if they find out, it means that they, too, were doing boring shit to make sure you did it, and they're going to break this habit fast. In positions of power, the -last- thing you want to do is doom yourself to the same experience. If they don't do it, you're again, part of the anti-loyalist crowd. You have a 'new nemesis', reasonable interest in going against that person, and plenty of reasons to plot.
Then there's the converse side, where the scene might suck. But then at the end of it, or in the midst of it, that templar/noble/uniform shows up, and is impressed, and reveal that this was all a test or something that was helpful to them. You get swept up in -their- life now, effectively experiencing the opposite of all those things above.
Again, these sorts of actions getting broken down to 'but I didn't want to at that moment' is totally depriving you of richer, deeper experiences that provide -their own content- after that. After this event, you literally have a new goal or opportunity to watch for -every time you log in- until your character gets over it or gets their smug return.
ETA: Clarifying, I'm not saying, they're acting this way, that is documentation, so it is good. I'm saying the entire world is based on these kind of relationships and interactions, and drifting away from it is actually -removing your content- AND theirs. These build enemies, allies, frenemies, they give you things to work towards and away from every time you log in. These build very rich interactions in a cutthroat world where you, too, are supposed to be cutthroat in your own little ways. Be oppressed until your character breaks and lets loose, or secretly get training to fight against not the city-state, but -that particular fucker-. Decide while shoveling shit to volunteer for more menial tasks to establish trust so that you can betray that person in the best ways your character has access to.
These sorts of interactions are present. That doesn't mean they're always absolutely enjoyable, and it's why I made sure to say 'as much as you can manage' in my earlier post. It isn't that this is all supposed to be hunky dory, because things can get frustrating with power structures and you trying to wedge your way into them in various ways. Everyone, as a player, has a certain level that they just want to say 'fuck this'. I wasn't saying break away from that entirely. But I am saying try to get the perspective enough that you can -manage- more, and you will increase your content level in the game. 1 hour of roleplay I wasn't really into, giving me 10 solid days of playtime of goal-oriented, directed plotting is a damn good return on an hour.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN!:
Also...this is why templar and noble roles can be so difficult. Please be patient. There is a rock and a hard place where they are simultaneously playing the power structure on a shallow level...but also trying to make it into a thing that provides 'things to do' and enriching the character through experience rather than through planned background or planned future. Let go of that control as much as you can manage to. Once the character is in the game, it isn't your character. It now belongs to Zalanthas.
Another great post, and this is why I was agreeing with you in my prior post. I was being brief and succinct in agreeing with you in all these points: Allanak has a lot of roleplay centered around a heavy class divide. Yes, I know if you sweep the dung, you can get higher honors.
What you might not be seeing in our arguments is that players do not want to engage with that heavy class divide roleplay all the time.
Both RavingTregils (the person I was saying "Riiiight" to in the quote above) and I mentioned not having a lot of play times these days. I currently live in a country with a heavy class divide dealing with a plague and it's a shit-show. Maybe when I log into a game I want variety and not the same script. Like RavingTregils, I may not want to spend the 30 minutes I have to play that day sweeping dung.
Again, I want to emphasize. I agree with you Armaddict. I see a lot of the nuance in the class RP and said I liked it, I was just being succinct! Please see our points as well about needing variety and reprieve.
Heh, sorry Triste, I didn't mean that to lash out directly as much as seize the opportunity to provide an example given...well...the example. It really, truly disheartens me to see those kind of things ruining things for people, because so much explosive potential comes out of them.
A few years back, one of the last characters I played here, was a city-elf named Nobody. He actually wasn't named Nobody at the beginning. I actually had all sorts of completely different plans for him. One night I was playing, keeping to myself, and people came in and asked for his name. He wouldn't give it. They got malicious about it. They tried to demean him. They called him a Nobody. He took on the label, introducing himself as that in front of them just to get under their skin. They got fed up that he wouldn't join their crew and he was acting this way. They ended up starting to hunt him down. There was a bounty on him in that crew. There were people actively looking for him. Nobody decided that he was getting hemmed in by a bigger group filled with people who fought more with him...how could he survive. BAM! That -entire character- changed in less than 3 real life days based off of people pushing down on him. He built an entire new support structure from himself since they had theirs. He set all of his efforts towards 'well, how -can- I fuck them over?'. He found commonality with enemies of his enemy.
He ended up living for 90 days. He was defined at chargen the way I wanted him to be. Zalanthas made him into something entirely different at about the 5 days of playing time mark. It ended up being one of my favorite characters of all time...because I did -not- get pushed away by this thing that really kind of irritated me (this is all because I wouldn't give my -name-?).
More than actually preaching, I'm kind of trying to inspire here, for those who quickly fall underfoot in those situations. I know that there are some things that -seem- to be far less than ideal and make you want to just 'bleh' at the game. Roll with it the best you can. It's not 100%, but these are often really surprising fonts of content that throw the whole game into overdrive.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 15, 2020, 02:12:57 PM
Heh, sorry Triste, I didn't mean that to lash out directly as much as seize the opportunity to provide an example given...well...the example. It really, truly disheartens me to see those kind of things ruining things for people, because so much explosive potential comes out of them.
A few years back, one of the last characters I played here, was a city-elf named Nobody. He actually wasn't named Nobody at the beginning. I actually had all sorts of completely different plans for him. One night I was playing, keeping to myself, and people came in and asked for his name. He wouldn't give it. They got malicious about it. They tried to demean him. They called him a Nobody. He took on the label, introducing himself as that in front of them just to get under their skin. They got fed up that he wouldn't join their crew and he was acting this way. They ended up starting to hunt him down. There was a bounty on him in that crew. There were people actively looking for him. Nobody decided that he was getting hemmed in by a bigger group filled with people who fought more with him...how could he survive. BAM! That -entire character- changed in less than 3 real life days based off of people pushing down on him. He built an entire new support structure from himself since they had theirs. He set all of his efforts towards 'well, how -can- I fuck them over?'. He found commonality with enemies of his enemy.
He ended up living for 90 days. He was defined at chargen the way I wanted him to be. Zalanthas made him into something entirely different at about the 5 days of playing time mark. It ended up being one of my favorite characters of all time...because I did -not- get pushed away by this thing that really kind of irritated me (this is all because I wouldn't give my -name-?).
More than actually preaching, I'm kind of trying to inspire here, for those who quickly fall underfoot in those situations. I know that there are some things that -seem- to be far less than ideal and make you want to just 'bleh' at the game. Roll with it the best you can. It's not 100%, but these are often really surprising fonts of content that throw the whole game into overdrive.
Was hesitant to reply, as I want anyone to feel free to jump in!
If you were trying to inspire, you succeeded. Yes, that is an inspiring story. I've never gotten to 90 days played, I think the closest I've gotten was 40 days played some years back. I am now lucky if I can clock 10 days played over 6 IRL months these days. I have three jobs and work 60-80 hours a week.
Again, there are two golden nuggets in RavingTregil's post that are secretly related: the fact that Tuluki inks lower the barrier to plot entry, and the fact that the poster missing Tuluk is also busy AF. To put it in brief, Tuluk is [1] a foil to Allanak, [2] a place to play to get a reprieve from Allanak, and [3] a more casual playing experience than Allanak. And I think it is valuable to have something like this in the game.
Now, there was another time when I worked 60-80 hours a week and still tried to find the time to play Armageddon in addition to all the other crap I do. That was around six years ago, right before the Closure of Tuluk. I even checked my LinkedIn, character list and the Tuluk closure notice to fact check myself. What rocked about playing in Tuluk then? Again, the low barrier to entry. I was privy to the Sun Legions because it was the grittiest option (and had a creepy Starship Troopers vibe I liked), and again, unlike Allanak, was less likely to entangle you in some corruption-political-erotic-murder fest. And yes, I know two of those words there are in the motto of the game, and Allanak is more intense and more true to theme and "better." But I had at most 5 hours to blow on this game a week at the time, and Tuluk was able to provide that casual experience to busy veteran players like me. As many have mentioned, this is also why it was a great place for new players to start.
I'll stop in my loving on RavingTregil's post and return to my love for CodeMaster's post. I don't necessarily think we need to reopen Tuluk or a Tuluk-like place. I think CodeMaster's idea of making the game more playable for certain character concepts at the bottom is fantastic and yields the same benefit. It needs to be looked at seriously (as you said as well Armaddict <3). We can fix Allanak and ignore the rest, but the key here is we need something that is [1] a foil or contrast to mainstreet in Allanak, to borrow your term [2] offers a reprieve from some of the more work-intensive, life-and-death plotlines in Allanak and [3] is reasonably playable and
slightly less likely to end in utter obliteration of plotlines either through excessive gatekeeping or lethal punishment.
As a non-tuluk player (I only played there a couple times), I fully acknowledge the giant void left when it was removed. I feel like it could have been combatted in various ways, but we didn't really do...any of them.
But also as a non-Tuluk player, what exactly made the statement...
QuoteThe biggest value Tuluk had over Allanak was you didn't have to hate fellow inked citizens. You could go in the Sanctuary
and talk to a noble, templar, aide, breed, elf, anyone and not be made to feel like you were a bad RPer for not following the docs.
...true? The racism in particular is global. Are we just saying that Allanaki racism often reduces to non-interaction, where Tuluki racism/classism was hidden behind a think wall during interaction? I think I have a fundamental misunderstanding here, because the description always given to me was that Tuluk was just as bad, but everything was done with a smile. Under the framework I've been posting under, both situations provide the same ample content to engage in.
I think you were replying to me at the start but I can't speak for RavingTregils who you quoted there. I would say Allanak does tend more towards non-interaction or antagonism. I am wondering if you are saying using the think and feel command and interacting in a more subtle way is a bad thing?
Regardless this reminds me of something OP Gentleboy has said before, that so many characters are a terse asshole type and don't go into small talk about their preferences and such. I told Gentleboy that "Yup, by the docs you shouldn't trust people like that." A pity Gentleboy couldn't experience Tuluk, he probably would have loved it.
Variety is the spice of life.
I hear the arguments about playerbase size and such, but as you say, "a giant void" was left and never filled. Maybe now is the time to fix it.
Whenever there is a shooting on the street in my city, the whole city is abuzz. Cops are watchful and pissed off. That is 'not' how many murders take place.
Most murders that happen correctly happen this way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBW5AesgXC8
While different deaths do happen. Expecting them is like expecting civil rights and fairness in a Zalanthan setting.
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.
Quote from: Lotion on October 15, 2020, 04:50:30 PM
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.
Reopening the Atrium was a good effort because in theory it would have opened up more mediary roles between the ruling class and the non-ruling class, but unfortunately it had the effect of defining a very narrow hiring pool for aides (human southerners) whereas before the Atrium opened it was easier to informally become an aide even if you had an unusual background.
Because would-be aides are stuck in training? I hope aides would be almost as useful even if they haven't graduated yet.
Quote from: Lotion on October 15, 2020, 04:50:30 PM
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.
I don't think this is inappropriate to share, but just some numbers for everyone so that the topic can be approached with some context:
Since the Atrium re-opening we have had
45 students come through. (6.5 students are inducted every RL month.) I think revealing how many graduate would be inappropriate but I feel confident that the numbers resemble how many leave the Byn "successfully" after their Runner year. I'm guessing 20-30% without going and physically counting my ledgers. I believe this has more to do with OOC factors than IC factors.
e.g. OOC factors: Not liking the clan/role, not finding an interesting sponsor, getting linked up with the wrong sponsor, playtimes not linking up with Atrium leadership/Noble leadership, and storage.
e.g. IC factors: Murder (of course), getting into
too much trouble, Noble dooms PC, clan leadership dooms PC, running away.
I have discussed with staff in the past shortening the clan length to 2 months instead of 3 IC but we hadn't set a hard line on it as of yet. I'm perfectly fine with that and I believe staff is, as well. We just haven't done it, yet.
Quote from: triste on October 15, 2020, 05:13:11 PM
Reopening the Atrium was a good effort because in theory it would have opened up more mediary roles between the ruling class and the non-ruling class, but unfortunately it had the effect of defining a very narrow hiring pool for aides (human southerners) whereas before the Atrium opened it was easier to informally become an aide even if you had an unusual background.
Noble Houses only ever hired human Allanakis officially. Noble Houses have, will, and do hire undesirables "under the table". This is simply a secret, because it would be embarrassing for them if their rivals found out about it.
Quote from: SandCastle on October 15, 2020, 05:17:04 PM
Because would-be aides are stuck in training? I hope aides would be almost as useful even if they haven't graduated yet.
Some Nobles/Templars prefer that their aides begin working immediately while they are a student. Some prefer that they focus 100% on graduating the Atrium. Others still do not require that their aides graduate the Atrium and do not enter them. All of these have IC consequences and it's upon the Noble or Templar to decide what they want to do.
Those are some great stats that make me reassess my assumptions thanks for sharing them!
Quote from: Reel Code on October 15, 2020, 05:28:10 PM
Quote from: Lotion on October 15, 2020, 04:50:30 PM
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.
I don't think this is inappropriate to share, but just some numbers for everyone so that the topic can be approached with some context:
Since the Atrium re-opening we have had 45 students come through. (6.5 students are inducted every RL month.) I think revealing how many graduate would be inappropriate but I feel confident that the numbers resemble how many leave the Byn "successfully" after their Runner year. I'm guessing 20-30% without going and physically counting my ledgers. I believe this has more to do with OOC factors than IC factors.
e.g. OOC factors: Not liking the clan/role, not finding an interesting sponsor, getting linked up with the wrong sponsor, playtimes not linking up with Atrium leadership/Noble leadership, and storage.
e.g. IC factors: Murder (of course), getting into too much trouble, Noble dooms PC, clan leadership dooms PC, running away.
I have discussed with staff in the past shortening the clan length to 2 months instead of 3 IC but we hadn't set a hard line on it as of yet. I'm perfectly fine with that and I believe staff is, as well. We just haven't done it, yet.
Quote from: triste on October 15, 2020, 05:13:11 PM
Reopening the Atrium was a good effort because in theory it would have opened up more mediary roles between the ruling class and the non-ruling class, but unfortunately it had the effect of defining a very narrow hiring pool for aides (human southerners) whereas before the Atrium opened it was easier to informally become an aide even if you had an unusual background.
Noble Houses only ever hired human Allanakis officially. Noble Houses have, will, and do hire undesirables "under the table". This is simply a secret, because it would be embarrassing for them if their rivals found out about it.
Quote from: SandCastle on October 15, 2020, 05:17:04 PM
Because would-be aides are stuck in training? I hope aides would be almost as useful even if they haven't graduated yet.
Some Nobles/Templars prefer that their aides begin working immediately while they are a student. Some prefer that they focus 100% on graduating the Atrium. Others still do not require that their aides graduate the Atrium and do not enter them. All of these have IC consequences and it's upon the Noble or Templar to decide what they want to do.
On the flip-side, do we have numbers of how many aides were there when the school wasn't open?
Quote from: Barsook on October 15, 2020, 06:27:19 PM
On the flip-side, do we have numbers of how many aides were there when the school wasn't open?
I do not, personally.
From my basic and non-staff investigation it appears that the clan comes/goes if there is sufficient player/staff interest to run the clan. My personal thanks to staff who have run it in the past, especially in the time I've been playing, such as: Talia, Eurynomous, Oryx, etc. It is similar to many clans in that it cycles based on interest. Here are the time periods:
Open March 2020-Present
Closed June 2018-March 2020
Open August 2017-June 2018
Closed November 2016-August 2017
Open December 2014-November 2016
Closed April 2012-December 2014
Open? December 2011-April 2012 (uncomfirmed)
Closed? 2006-2011
Further back than 2007 is spotty as the GDB was not used and I may be incorrect. IG boards were more in favor, back then.
I would hazard a guess by these dates that if the Atrium is closed tomorrow, then by 1-1.5 years it is re-opened based on trends. If I were buying stock, I would buy Atrium stock -- I know it is going to rise again, no matter what.
I know that playing a noble without the Atrium open is more difficult than when it is open. I did not have the time or inclination to train servants as a noble without adding another 10-20 hours to my playtimes. Add into that that I lost perhaps 5 aides to low playtimes, RL, storage, and IC murder -- it's just not plausible to go back and hire/train as a noble for most players.
Let us not forget if you stick to core Allanaki documentation:
it is not really appropriate for a noble to teach a servant basic stuff. Servants ought to undergo some indoctrination and training by either the Noble House who is hiring them via Advisors/Senior Aides or some other entity, such as the Atrium school. Most of the knowledge gained isn't easily consumed by simply reading public documentation.
Create clear, concise documentation for the noble clans for newly hired aides to read and "learn" the basics of being an aide from V/NPCs.
"Aide Froofy, you've mucked up again. Go have Senior Aide Virtuala whip you once and beg her to explain just why you were supposed to bow to me first."
Another solution I've seen is to have the noble animate their guard to explain things to the offending employee.
Granted, that doesn't solve anything if the noble is a newer player and doesn't know the intricacies of the political arena, and has minimal documentation to learn from.
Hm, maybe the aides aren't the problem but the problem could be that nobles don't know what to do with their aides. Not all nobles, of course. And when aides are bored, just like other players, they tend to get into trouble.
both?both.gif
Both.
On one hand, aides shouldn't need to be babysat. On the other hand, they need direction and purpose.
It's a synergy more than an either/or situation when it comes to "whose fault was it" that the aide went bonkers or the noble stored.
Finally, sometimes people's playstyles just don't click.
I like less blame and more enabling players to have the tools in their toolboxes that they need to be successful.
Both the previous posts here and a spinoff thread "To PK or not to PK" basically make the same "be the change / we are the problem" argument.
Yes, given this is a roleplaying game in which we all have agency, this is often the argument to make. But I feel like conversation often ends here, as it did above, without depth or elaboration.
One thing I've been told is, "Oh, Triste, you aren't being involved in these awesome plots because you are not smart enough / not able to cooperate etc." That is probably the argument people will make about the dwarf who gets blown up in the spin-off thread. He wasn't "smart enough" and "made a bad choice" and so got blown up. But come on; just about all of us have gotten rich by looting a corpse just like that dwarf was trying to do in that story from williamson.
So let's unpack this notion of "not smart enough," or "not mafioso enough" to get involved in plots:
- "Not smart enough" - the IQ test was one of the first efforts to measure intelligence, and it was horribly culturally biased. One of the first iterations of the test shows a white woman with 1940's hair making four expressions, and asking, "In which picture is the woman happy?" In not all cultures does smiling equate happiness, therefore, foreigners were more likely to have lower IQ. All the IQ test measured was homophily.
- "Not mafioso enough" - People always say Allanaki political roleplay is like mob roleplay. Mafia is a term that can refer to Italian, Russian, and similar crime organizations. Twice I've seen people link videos of ex-mobsters talking to say, "See, this is how to do Armageddon political RP." In this thread someone links a video from some mafia movie. What these Mafia organizations talked about in these videos often involve are harsh loyalty tests, a notion of family [which may or may not be racist], and a strong order based on homophily.
We can be the change, but I am not going to be an advocate for homophily. What was great about Williamson's post was a Templar gave a half-elf a chance to live and holy shit look at what happened when a half-elf was given a chance to prove himself. Give people chances and don't glorify assholishness or cliquishness all the time in all circumstances.
I am chiming in here..I have played a lot of Aides...most of them very long lived. I have also played nobles. When you are an aide your job is literally to make the Highborns life easier. Not drag them into drama with you, not to need constant baby sitting. You are an impoverished nobody and Beyoncé/Robet Downey Jr/(whomever you kids like these days) just hired you to make their life easier. If things go well you will never be hungry again, you will be clothing in the best, and want for nothing. Aides should be able to come up with things to do make their lords and ladies lives easier. Go make friends with Merchants, go meet contacts your Highborn might want to use, think up ways to help the house and your bosses career. Because after all if they do well you do well. No one likes to have to constantly micromanage someone else. Make your own fun. Its the same with Gemmed. You shouldn't require a Templar or a Lord or Lady of the Oash to constantly be giving you a to-do list. If your Highborn wants to throw a party as an Aide you should be able to do absolutely everything to make that happen including set up and break without having to ask how many cups they want and on which table.
Having a crappy Lord that is politically circling the drain can suck...but it can really fun to ride that down ward spiral with them you can learn a lot from watching someone else make mistakes. No not every aide is gonna be devoted to their job but most of them should be. This is a career most commoners would and have literally committed murder to get. Your motivation shouldn't be I want to wear silks, be high handed with other commoners, and get treated like a spoiled pet. If you want to play a spoiled brat, app a Highborn. Also if you want to play a good noble or Templar you should be playing aides so you can learn the rules of engagement. I learned everything I needed to know about the nuances of navigating the shark infested waters of Allanak's politics from playing aides.
To the Atrium it can be really fun depending on who is teaching and who the students are. Personally I found my time playing a Hostess as one of the most difficult roles I have ever had on Arm. You are jozhal at a party full of rantarri. I think I had a pretty high graduation rate but I diffidently feel some players get sick going through Aide 101 over and over again.
Agreed with the above poster.
Triste I'm not sure what you were responding to. My suggestion is to create 'what you would know' political documentation. It doesn't have to be super in-depth, just clear, concise and helpful to those new to the roles.
I'm not sure there's even a public help file on how to behave around Nobles and Templars as an average commoner from Allanak.
Unfortunately most of the above isn't helpful if the player on the other end just doesn't care about your fun.
Aides are at best vestigial. At worst they're disposable. They seem fun on paper but I can't think of a worse role in the game.
Oh and the simple fact that the locked room estate/apartment killing is still a fucking thing blows my mind.
Quote from: Delirium
Triste I'm not sure what you were responding to. My suggestion is to create 'what you would know' political documentation.
Quote from: tapas
Unfortunately most of the above isn't helpful if the player on the other end just doesn't care about your fun.
Tapas gets my point. At no point have people complained, "I don't know how to play this role, give me documentation." At no point. People are complaining about "silos" or people not extending roleplay opportunities. People care about getting stuck in dead end roles, such as a disposable aide who gets thrown out in a back room like a tampax. Tapas, Saiseiki, and a lot of other posters here understand that point.
Yeah getting told you got offed because you were doing it wrong is just piling salt on the wound.
I disagree that there are "intricacies" to aide play. Most political play is socializing, wheeling and maybe a little bit of dealing. A lot of it is fabricating in character reasons to impact other characters. This is the "You wear lace? Don't you know that's for northerners." sort of made up roleplay.
And you know what? I'm actually fine with it. It's usually just improvisation. It's when other players and staff buy into the made up stuff that it gets frustrating.
Once I played with a noble player who used one of these ic fabrications to regularly attack my character. And then they used it to turn another character against me. And then they used it to to eventually kill my player. And then finally I was told by a staff member that I didn't understand social roleplay in Armageddon.
The whole situation was upsetting enough to keep me from ever playing an aide again.
**Edited for less asshole.
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 06:45:31 AM
Yeah getting told you got offed because you were doing it wrong is just piling salt on the wound.
And in this context it's total bullshit. There are no "intricacies" to aide play. It's 80% sitting on a couch and waying people. The rest is actual bullshit players are pulling out of their ass as they play.
And you know what? I'm actually fine with it. Bullshit here is just improvisation. It's when other players and staff buy into that bullshit that it gets frustrating.
Once I played with a noble player who used the bullshit pull to regularly attack my character. And then they used it to turn another character against me. And then they used it to to eventually kill my player. And then they put it into a report to a dumbass member of staff where I actually got labeled as "bad at social roleplay".
And then I got told I was the one doing it wrong. Fuck off.
The whole situation was putrid enough to keep me from ever playing an aide again.
That's interesting. Has this been awhile ago? Would you be willing to talk about it more? I think this is a very good scenario to look through to see what could've been done better, who's right, who's wrong kind of thing.
I think that "The Allanak Problem" is an extension of "The Armageddon Problem" and that it's an inherently cursed problem caused by conflicting promises the game makes to us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ
"I hate apartment ganks! There's no RP in that!"
Watches people like raiders, baddies and other sorts that go for the RP or death 'In the open'.
st
mount
flee
e
e
e
e
e
e
Huh.
Guess what? The above happens 50x more than the apartment nonsense.
Quote from: Dar on October 26, 2020, 09:46:15 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 06:45:31 AM
Yeah getting told you got offed because you were doing it wrong is just piling salt on the wound.
And in this context it's total bullshit. There are no "intricacies" to aide play. It's 80% sitting on a couch and waying people. The rest is actual bullshit players are pulling out of their ass as they play.
And you know what? I'm actually fine with it. Bullshit here is just improvisation. It's when other players and staff buy into that bullshit that it gets frustrating.
Once I played with a noble player who used the bullshit pull to regularly attack my character. And then they used it to turn another character against me. And then they used it to to eventually kill my player. And then they put it into a report to a dumbass member of staff where I actually got labeled as "bad at social roleplay".
And then I got told I was the one doing it wrong. Fuck off.
The whole situation was putrid enough to keep me from ever playing an aide again.
That's interesting. Has this been awhile ago? Would you be willing to talk about it more? I think this is a very good scenario to look through to see what could've been done better, who's right, who's wrong kind of thing.
Rehashing it is a waste to time and I've given all the parties enough grief for it.
The problem is that there really is nothing to stop a noble player from disliking an aide and generating a pretext to off them.
The frustration stems from nothing having changed in so many years AND the simple fact that backroom murders remain a mainstay.
Quote
"I hate apartment ganks! There's no RP in that!"
I hate apartment ganks because I feel cheated out my character. Not because "There's no RP."
QuoteWatches people like raiders, baddies and other sorts that go for the RP or death 'In the open'.
st
mount
flee
e
e
e
e
e
e
Huh.
Guess what? The above happens 50x more than the apartment nonsense.
I can't say I see a whole lot of this at all. Even as playing a BigScary, players tend to stick around and converse even if the odds are against them.
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:28:23 AM
I hate apartment ganks because I feel cheated out my character. Not because "There's no RP."
Why, though? What's so special about apartment PK vs. anywhere else?
I still don't understand this. If you kill someone 'out in the open', it needs to be instant more often than not. The victim doesn't even get a scene out of it.
Quote from: Lotion on October 26, 2020, 10:03:33 AM
I think that "The Allanak Problem" is an extension of "The Armageddon Problem" and that it's an inherently cursed problem caused by conflicting promises the game makes to us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ
Agreed. Watch/listen to that video. I think we all can let go of something to improve our amazing game.
Quote from: rinthrat on October 26, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:28:23 AM
I hate apartment ganks because I feel cheated out my character. Not because "There's no RP."
Why, though? What's so special about apartment PK vs. anywhere else?
I still don't understand this. If you kill someone 'out in the open', it needs to be instant more often than not. The victim doesn't even get a scene out of it.
The bottom line is that I don't want a scene from you if you're playing the game this way.
And yeah. I can tolerate backstabs and magick and desert skirmishes. None of those are sure things, all of them employ some level of risk. But locked rooms are used by players to make the promise of RP and abuse that promise to get an easy win out of it.
**Edited to be less of an asshole.
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:56:01 AM
Quote from: rinthrat on October 26, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:28:23 AM
I hate apartment ganks because I feel cheated out my character. Not because "There's no RP."
Why, though? What's so special about apartment PK vs. anywhere else?
I still don't understand this. If you kill someone 'out in the open', it needs to be instant more often than not. The victim doesn't even get a scene out of it.
Dude. If you're pulling the backroom bullshit, then I've already written you off. I don't want your shitty scene.
And yeah. I can tolerate backstabs and magick and desert skirmishes. But locked rooms are gamey nonsense for players that need to win.
Gave you two tries to actually behave your age, Tapas. Knock it off, discuss things rationally and civilly or don't post. Period and simple, isn't it?
Quote from: Lotion on October 26, 2020, 10:03:33 AM
I think that "The Allanak Problem" is an extension of "The Armageddon Problem" and that it's an inherently cursed problem caused by conflicting promises the game makes to us
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uE6-vIi1rQ
Thank you for sharing this, definitely a useful framework and extremely relevant to this topic. I went to GDC a while back, I wish a lot of the technology demoed there would go mainstream.
Per the framework laid out by this speaker, there are a lot of conflicting promises in Armageddon. I think aides often pop up as a hot button issue because it is a role loaded with promises: if you play an aide, you will be involved in behind the scenes dealings and politics; if you play an aide, you will get exposure and experience with Allanaki politics that will allow you to play a noble or a templar later. The only thing you have to chip in to achieve all of this is your best role playing efforts and following the docs.
The core of these promises is that Armageddon is a harsh world in which the career trajectory of your individual character is limited, but that long term you can experience a variety of roles when you demonstrate the experience and merit needed to get those roles. Even if you play an aide and get killed in a back room, you should have gotten enough involvement and experience to have fun, and also win the meta-achievement of some karma or the like assuming you role played a setting fitting character.
When this promise of lasting achievement and plot involvement gets broken, that is when people start complaining.
I try to reserve my complaints to clear cut cases. Here is a clear cut way in which the promise of Armageddon is broken: if you cannot play more than 10 hours a week, you are not allowed to have leadership roles. Period. It's not in the official documentation anywhere, but on multiple occasions staff have confirmed that this policy is more or less in place. Because this requirement is not listed anywhere along with all of the game's promises of great roleplay, it is tantamount to a broken promise.
Per the framework of that talk, Armageddon tries to handle the tension around this promise with gatekeeping, carrots, and sometimes 'smores (making lemonade out of lemons). As long as you are going to have feels-bad-man gatekeeping place like "You must play at least 10 hours a week to be a leader," effectively locking some players who are motivated by achievement in hell, then you need more 'smores style solutions (again to borrow the term from this talk). I think that is why I love outside the box thinking by people like Codemaster advocating for more love and care shown to criminal roleplay. The game needs to be playable, and if the game makes promises it outright breaks, at least make the experience fun for those who can never break past the gatekeeping.
That presentation ends with one of the key challenges being PvP games where people want to win 70% of the time but inherently cannot by definition. Armageddon suffers from that. It also ends with the example of social games that balance achievements with open world style creativity. Armageddon suffers from that problem, too, because it is a rich, multifaceted game that has been running for three decades. Armageddon makes a lot of promises around harsh PvP mixed with the opportunity to create lasting in game change, and destruction and creation are inherently at odds. This talk given by this guy at GDC emphasizes that balancing games requires sacrifice, but cutting content isn't necessarily the answer. Personally, I think we need to rexamine our heavy gatekeeping and karma based carrot approach and look a little more at the making lemonade out of lemons approach. After all, the point of Armageddon is it being apocalyptic and hellacious, so make it fun to play as someone on the lower rungs because those characters are just as valid and just as in setting as the high borns. It really is simple. If we accept that some people are locked out of the current "promise of the game," let's make lemonade out of lemons, so bitter fucks like us can be sweet for once.
Quote from: Shabago on October 26, 2020, 10:58:11 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:56:01 AM
Quote from: rinthrat on October 26, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:28:23 AM
I hate apartment ganks because I feel cheated out my character. Not because "There's no RP."
Why, though? What's so special about apartment PK vs. anywhere else?
I still don't understand this. If you kill someone 'out in the open', it needs to be instant more often than not. The victim doesn't even get a scene out of it.
Dude. If you're pulling the backroom bullshit, then I've already written you off. I don't want your shitty scene.
And yeah. I can tolerate backstabs and magick and desert skirmishes. But locked rooms are gamey nonsense for players that need to win.
Gave you two tries to actually behave your age, Tapas. Knock it off, discuss things rationally and civilly or don't post. Period and simple, isn't it?
I've edited my replies to be less aggressive and accusatory. Sorry for that.
QuoteThe bottom line is that I don't want a scene from you if you're playing the game this way.
From this statement itself, I'd say there's an entirely different bottom line.
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:56:01 AM
Quote from: rinthrat on October 26, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:28:23 AM
I hate apartment ganks because I feel cheated out my character. Not because "There's no RP."
Why, though? What's so special about apartment PK vs. anywhere else?
I still don't understand this. If you kill someone 'out in the open', it needs to be instant more often than not. The victim doesn't even get a scene out of it.
The bottom line is that I don't want a scene from you if you're playing the game this way.
And yeah. I can tolerate backstabs and magick and desert skirmishes. None of those are sure things, all of them employ some level of risk. But locked rooms are used by players to make the promise of RP and abuse that promise to get an easy win out of it.
**Edited to be less of an asshole.
That's still not something I can understand, or relate to.
When I came back from the game after a loooooong break, I had a character that eventually got the sense that people in Allanak wanted him dead for some reason. None of that made any sense to me or the PC at the time, but he fled to Red Storm.
He managed to stay alive there for a while and got lulled into a false sense of security. Eventually, some people there got him drunk, lured him into a clan compound there, and subsequently killed him with greetings from <that faction in Allanak that wanted him dead>. That was an 8/10 death for me - points redacted only because the PCs that wanted me dead in Allanak did that for shitty reasons (basically: 'I was playing a serial killer and you did some minor thing to piss me off that I don't even remember'), and I didn't find out the entire story until years later.
The PCs who did the killing, though? They had nothing to do with that, and gave me the best ending they possibly could in that situation. I
vastly prefer this over a backstab or an arrow out of nowhere, with no explanation or without even knowing who killed my PC.
So
please, as far as I'm concerned? Lure me into a locked room anytime, it's
much better than seeing a random mantishead out of nowhere. I really, really don't understand where the hate for that sort of kill is coming from, or why I shouldn't be doing it.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 26, 2020, 01:02:30 PM
QuoteThe bottom line is that I don't want a scene from you if you're playing the game this way.
From this statement itself, I'd say there's an entirely different bottom line.
Sentences that make sense, 2020.
Quote from: rinthrat on October 26, 2020, 01:15:44 PM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:56:01 AM
Quote from: rinthrat on October 26, 2020, 10:37:54 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 26, 2020, 10:28:23 AM
I hate apartment ganks because I feel cheated out my character. Not because "There's no RP."
Why, though? What's so special about apartment PK vs. anywhere else?
I still don't understand this. If you kill someone 'out in the open', it needs to be instant more often than not. The victim doesn't even get a scene out of it.
The bottom line is that I don't want a scene from you if you're playing the game this way.
And yeah. I can tolerate backstabs and magick and desert skirmishes. None of those are sure things, all of them employ some level of risk. But locked rooms are used by players to make the promise of RP and abuse that promise to get an easy win out of it.
**Edited to be less of an asshole.
That's still not something I can understand, or relate to.
When I came back from the game after a loooooong break, I had a character that eventually got the sense that people in Allanak wanted him dead for some reason. None of that made any sense to me or the PC at the time, but he fled to Red Storm.
He managed to stay alive there for a while and got lulled into a false sense of security. Eventually, some people there got him drunk, lured him into a clan compound there, and subsequently killed him with greetings from <that faction in Allanak that wanted him dead>. That was an 8/10 death for me - points redacted only because the PCs that wanted me dead in Allanak did that for shitty reasons (basically: 'I was playing a serial killer and you did some minor thing to piss me off that I don't even remember'), and I didn't find out the entire story until years later.
The PCs who did the killing, though? They had nothing to do with that, and gave me the best ending they possibly could in that situation. I vastly prefer this over a backstab or an arrow out of nowhere, with no explanation or without even knowing who killed my PC.
So please, as far as I'm concerned? Lure me into a locked room anytime, it's much better than seeing a random mantishead out of nowhere. I really, really don't understand where the hate for that sort of kill is coming from, or why I shouldn't be doing it.
This is what I've seen happen when Templars fond of killing people in locked rooms have a heyday. And note, there are a few mechanisms for this, such as coordinating with a leader of a clan to get someone clan dumped within their compound, thus making this more surprising and inescapable than a locked apartment -- anyway -- this is what happens when you condone locked apartment kills, clan dump kills, whiran gust into the arena kills, etc:
people stop roleplaying with each other. I've seen it with my own eyes. In game, criminal PCs, or northerner PCs, will twitch and run at the mere sight of a Templar! Here we come, our big dramatic encounter where the rebel has been entrapped:
A templar fond of locked rooms rides in from the east.
8 goons and a half-giant goon ride in from the east.
A rebel PC who would love to roleplay but doesn't want inescapable death runs to the west!
Literally in the same tick, because the rebel was scanning and saw the Templar coming. No one has any trust for each other, because that templar might have literally killed three of that rebel's PC's in a row. Literally. When I first saw someone run from a Templar without roleplay like that I considered submitting a player complaint against them, but after I saw how many people the Templars were killing and how they were killing them I understood. And so no one gets to enjoy roleplay at all at the outset of this encounter. Tapas said this himself with the whole notion of "I trusted you to give me roleplay, but you didn't."
Also Armaddict, I would caution against assuming people's intent and re-reading people's very own statement's of their intent please, it can be considered rude.
TLDR: There is a golden rule of respect. If you give more respect, you get more respect. It works the same for roleplay and it works both ways for both parties.
• If, as a subordinate, you are a dramatic little twit, you will get in turn what you've put out: an end to your plots, because you aren't cooperating with more important, game fitting plots.
• If, as a leader, you are killing people in their second meeting with you, people are less likely to want to roleplay with you after the second encounter you killed them during.
• If, as a subordinate, you are helping your leader, collaborating to generate awesome roleplay for everyone, and involving people, you will likely see your plots manifest as lasting change in the game.
• If, as a leader, you see a criminal as a tool to advance your schemes as is the case in Williamson's great to PK or not to PK post, then you are going to see kudos and more roleplay come your way.
It's simple. But we need to have compassion for people who cannot, due to whatever circumstances, fit into one of the good niches (bullet 3 or 4). For example, some people are literally never allowed to try bullet 4 because of arbitrary playtime requirements. Some people also just do not want to play bullet 3 because they aren't, shall we say, submissive. You need to accommodate people locked out of experiencing the good in the game or they will just quit.
This is a fairly confusing assertion, as there should be a separation between the PC and the Player. A PC can be insubordinate, not get their job done well, be a drama queen, nefarious, a liar. That doesn't mean the player is.
The inference I get from some of these posts is 'I should only be PK'd or Killed in the fashion I find desirable', and that cannot and should not be the case 100% of the time. Or even 50% of the time.
As was pointed out by Lizzie and others, the end of someone's story can be the perpetuation of another's story. I've been super pissed about times my PCs have been PK'd. I've never filed a player complaint over it, because I keep IC, well, IC. I've been killed a dozen or so times, and though I almost never found the circumstances agreeable for me or my PC, I never thought there was something fishy about the motivations of fellow players.
Also, Templars are not the perpetuators of Apartment PKs. They literally have jail cells. If we're going down the road of 'Templars are being too authoritarian/rude in killing people', I dunno what game we're all playing together.
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on October 26, 2020, 07:23:16 PM
The inference I get from some of these posts is 'I should only be PK'd or Killed in the fashion I find desirable', and that cannot and should not be the case 100% of the time. Or even 50% of the time.
Correct, this is mentioned in the video Lotion shared and I mentioned it as well, that everyone wants to "win" more than half of the time, but by definition cannot because the average win rate across a pool of all contenders is 50% [in a two player binary outcome game].
What I don't understand is why everyone keeps giving the same "What's the problem," argument complacently without showing an ounce of sympathy for people who are, in fact, "losing" more than 80%, 90% of the time. The problem is the skew: some players have posted about how they've gotten more 20 sponsored roles in their time playing, while other players quit lamenting that they haven't been given a single sponsored role in 10 years of playing.
Yes, this game isn't supposed to be fair, the setting isn't supposed to be fair. But if we continue to be hardheaded and gloss over the experience actually being had by players like Tapas and
dozens of others, well, we'll validate so many Reddit posts that have characterized our community in an unkind way.
We need to show some empathy; your experience might have been good, and mixed. My experience with this game has mixed highs and lows. But for a lot of people it's loss after loss until they give up.
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on October 26, 2020, 07:23:16 PM
The inference I get from some of these posts is 'I should only be PK'd or Killed in the fashion I find desirable', and that cannot and should not be the case 100% of the time. Or even 50% of the time.
It's really just a handful of ways. Whiran summons have been fixed. Shitmugging has been fixed (to my knowledge). Arrow spam is still deadly but has been seriously reduced in it's effectiveness.
The ole' allanakki high five (half-giant subdue) is a concern but that varies with the maturity of the templar player. There are plenty that will use it for an ez pk. There are others that might just use it as a scare tactic.
It's really just apartments and estates.
how many people objecting to mass amounts of murders inside apartments have actually been murdered in apartments?
of those, how many people have been murdered so many times in an apartment they consider it a problem because it keeps happening?
I'm having deja vu all over again
Locked Apartments - 2016 (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51602.0.html)
Quote from: wizturbo on October 14, 2020, 01:47:03 AM
Really well written post Armaddict.
I think some recent IC events make me believe the Main Street is alive and well. The Senate comes to mind as an especially awesome thing - I really hope this becomes a frequent event, perhaps annually so players can count on it! But with all that said, I hope we continue to lean in on that. It's important that the side streets remain open... we don't want people who are trying to escape main street have no where to go, but main street is more critical for the health the game when it comes to staff and player focus in my humble opinion.
Here's my take on what should be the "main street" of Armageddon:
- The Arm of the Dragon and the Templarate
- The Allanaki noble houses
- The Greater and Minor Merchant Houses
- [Insert current antagonist clans] (maybe they change over time due to IC events)
Anything not on that list should still exist, still potentially influence main street in interesting ways, but should come with the understanding that support is more likely to be limited. That's just my two cents.
It's so funny reading this. Not being sarcastic, this was always the exact opposite for me. When I started playing Allanak was a famine infested shit hole where you hadn't heard shit from Tektolnes and then they lost a Copper War. The Sun-King was awakening from his conflict with the Dragon and Allanak was feeling bristly about the shifting of power northwards. -- There was no stability in Allanak in leadership (See guild running shit era) and the big dicks in the game were Lirathans and long lived Jihaens.
One of my first Allanaki characters was a borsail Wyvern (My avatar name) and my second and third were Tor scorpions. Then I played in the Oashi guard and I loved it. (Notice my beef here?)
I'll still play in Allanak. As I read this further it is just a note for me and perhaps other older players that things are simply different. In my own case, none of those houses are open in that form anymore. The flavor of Allanak i became accustomed to for a decade and a half just changed enough that it seems unfamiliar to me in some ways and super cool in others.
Borsail Wyvern, Tor Scorpion, Oashi Guard... these are all positions people have also expressed interest in reopening, along with GMH House Hunters this thread.
The key to "main street" is you need jobs for the people on main street. Not just 14 nobles and their aides, which has dominated the conversation. And Aides/Templar dominating a conversation about "The Allanak Problem" is completely appropriate because it's a huge part of the problem, but let's talk solutions. Allanak has hosted a lot of great roles like the Tor Scorpions and it's worth looking into opening more of these so we can stop whining about being an Aide and/or getting killed by Templars. Plots like "We need an unit of Tor Scorpions to assist the Borsail Wyverns in capturing a Mekillot for use in conquest," by definition, engages and interests more players than "Oh my aide Talia has kanked a half-elf and I am kanking her as well, now I need to kill Talia and get my pecker blessed by a Vivaduan." The first plot involves 30 people from main street while the second plot involves three. More plots like the former and less like the latter, please.
The Tor Scorpions
The Borsail Wyverns (not Amber)
The Oashi Elites
All point of the spear units within their house militaries. The Scorpions doubly so because they are responsible for training the OTHER elite military units to be better at what they do.
These are not units that need huge PC populations, I think Allanak needs more plebian soldiers and maybe 10% or less of the 'soldier population' could be elite people.
While I agree that there are too many neo-silk commoners about, I think the solution is not do the same thing but with bone swords. Make more shit tier rank and file people and allow a small percentage to be elites. I think the solution is the same on both the bone sword and silk braies sides of the coin.
There's something to this.
When you could be a Salarri hunter, Kadian hunter, Byn, Oashi elite, Tor scorpion, or whatever else, you had more options for your next PC after you died. Sometimes a clan would be empty, sometimes full, but you had options for your next PC after you died. Change of scenery goes a long way. It also gives more reason to go to a tavern when all available PC's of similar social class aren't already in your clan.
It also meant more competition for PC's which can result in engaged leadership, tavern vitality, and conflict.
Quote from: Tuannon on October 27, 2020, 09:35:08 AM
While I agree that there are too many neo-silk commoners about,
I just want to say I love "neo-silk commoners." When you visit Armageddon Dot Org you don't see a neo-silk commoner, that's all I am saying.
Point taken on needing more grunt troops, not elite troops. I think roughneck and I are fond of all the old groups and divisions because it offered separation/variety. But I agree you need balance, and these elite units were often too anemic to support the training of entry level grunts -- they would go to the Byn first for basic training, then become a Wyvern, etc.
So is the answer just to expand the Byn and Militia? I've seen, more than once, and more often than not, that a dual Sergeant situation in the Byn results in comi-tragic in-fighting. This is not the fault of the players, but because of what it's like leading in those circumstances: you constantly have the other Sergeant pulling your troops away to a different location. You are left, by design, in a rival-like situation. Maybe the solution to offer the clear separation with a new Hunting / Scouting / Traveling specialized unit, and a Guarding / Assassination / Warfare specialized unit, that can come together and use each other's troops only for large, meaningful RPTs. This would open up roles for grunts, the grunts can all still train together daily and get together on RPTs, but it allows Sergeants to not compete and rather cooperate and offer a very different experience for players who like variety.
Quote from: roughneck on October 27, 2020, 09:47:16 AM
There's something to this.
When you could be a Salarri hunter, Kadian hunter, Byn, Oashi elite, Tor scorpion, or whatever else, you had more options for your next PC after you died. Sometimes a clan would be empty, sometimes full, but you had options for your next PC after you died. Change of scenery goes a long way. It also gives more reason to go to a tavern when all available PC's of similar social class aren't already in your clan.
It also meant more competition for PC's which can result in engaged leadership, tavern vitality, and conflict.
Can we say this cut of elite groups be a "let go" of a cursed problem along with staff not railroading plots? I don't want to repeat ourselves from earlier in the thread and maybe we need to see each of the problems in the way that the speaker's thoughts in terms of cursed problems. We are getting the point where we going in circles.
QuoteThe PCs who did the killing, though? They had nothing to do with that, and gave me the best ending they possibly could in that situation. I vastly prefer this over a backstab or an arrow out of nowhere, with no explanation or without even knowing who killed my PC.
So please, as far as I'm concerned? Lure me into a locked room anytime, it's much better than seeing a random mantishead out of nowhere. I really, really don't understand where the hate for that sort of kill is coming from, or why I shouldn't be doing it.
Continue to do it insofar as you aren't receiving a warning from staff about it being done poorly or improperly. Even then...sometimes staff make some assumptions of their own and even go full-on ahead with that assumption, and you're still fine even if they wag their finger at you (as long as their assumption is wrong). What you describe is exactly what I've been talking about, where 'choosing the manner of death', if you will, on an ooc level, is just setting yourself up for disappointment. We all die jarring, unsatisfying deaths, and that's kinda the way it's gotta be or else we're ruining the gameworld we play in.
QuoteSentences that make sense, 2020.
It makes sense. You basically just reduced a comment down to exactly what I'd spent a lot of time describing beforehand. Showed it pretty spectacularly, really, or at least I thought so at the time. Something something bottom line game has to be the way I want it or you suck something something. Paraphrasing clear.
so... back to the topic of Allanak being the main hub of the game but not always having the largest PC population representing that...
honestly, I think it'll just cycle around as people die and make new characters, new sponsored roles come into Allanak, new stuff happens in Allanak. Over my time here, the happening spot tends to move around.
Quote from: Armaddict on October 27, 2020, 05:51:13 PM
We all die jarring, unsatisfying deaths, and that's kinda the way it's gotta be or else we're ruining the gameworld we play in.
Preach.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 27, 2020, 10:48:33 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 27, 2020, 05:51:13 PM
We all die jarring, unsatisfying deaths, and that's kinda the way it's gotta be or else we're ruining the gameworld we play in.
Preach.
Preach as long as the "We all" part holds true, and some people aren't getting disappointing deaths 10 times more often than others. Because this is a game, and it's nice in games if the enjoyment is as evenly distributed as possible.
Quote from: triste on October 27, 2020, 11:43:43 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 27, 2020, 10:48:33 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 27, 2020, 05:51:13 PM
We all die jarring, unsatisfying deaths, and that's kinda the way it's gotta be or else we're ruining the gameworld we play in.
Preach.
Preach as long as the "We all" part holds true, and some people aren't getting disappointing deaths 10 times more often than others. Because this is a game, and it's nice in games if the enjoyment is as evenly distributed as possible.
Your PC death will often be congruent with your playstyle. Don't like your deaths? Play differently. When I fight nasty NPC's, one might get me, if dying that way sucks to me, then I shouldn't play that way. When I scheme against templars, my PC might get thrown in a dungeon and killed that way, my choice got us there. If I play conservative, my pc's life may be boring, and the death may also be boring. Its not the game's fault and it's not favoritism. Choose your destiny.
QuoteQuoteSentences that make sense, 2020.
It makes sense. You basically just reduced a comment down to exactly what I'd spent a lot of time describing beforehand. Showed it pretty spectacularly, really, or at least I thought so at the time. Something something bottom line game has to be the way I want it or you suck something something. Paraphrasing clear.
Either I'm retarded or you're having trouble communicating without impenetrable innuendo. Either way I cannot grasp whatever nuance you are trying to portray. I mean other than that you don't dig what I'm putting out.
I do agree with Triste that leader players who tend lean on cheap estate kills etc. tend not to understand what the big deal is because A. It probably won't happen to them as a leader or through a string of leader characters. And B. It's a considerable source of coded power for leader PC's.
But then if you're not playing a leader and that bullshit gets sprung on you two or three times in a row, it becomes infuriating.
I'd like to put forth the following idea: the onus of exposition is not on the weapon that kills a player, but the hand that wields it.
The assassin is not responsible for anything other than carrying out the assassination.
The person that hired them better DAMN WELL be pounding out the conflict with the person to be assassinated.
The onus, and it is a great one, is on them.
When the two roles are wrapped into one, such as when you get 'estate ganked' is a reflection of the fact that person is trusted to do such things in a manner that is good for the game and the players. If you feel that isn't the case, you should probably take a day off, then come back and reflect. Was it really a bad scene and conclusion or are your emotions (and this game's RPI/Perma death/competitive nature's all evoke emotion in the player) clouding your judgement? If its the former, toss in a complaint. They deserve to know they fucked up. The latter? Roll another and take to heart the lessons offered.
Second, a short story.
I played a templar once, it was an interesting experience. Relevant to this thread is that there was a certain PC I found in jail. First time? No problem. look <criminal>. Doesn't look too wealthy. Crime: attacking NPCS. OK: give me 200 sid and get out of my sight, I don't want to see you again, understand? I took down a note this is a new player, and if they get caught again I should spice things up with opportunity if I could. They got caught again.
The next RL day they are back in jail, for the same crime. 'Remember how I told you I don't want to see you again? You've got a new punishment now. Get out of Allanak, go spy on <x> and report back to me. Do a good job and your banishment is over.' Escorted them to the gates, banished, and walked home. My character felt he had created an asset out of a liability, I as a player knew I did more to enhance the game experience than detract for a newbie: all is well. Right?
Wrong. The same RL day that player is back in jail and refused to do the task I asked of them. So I areaned them to death. At least they got to die gloriously right?
Wrong. That player wrote a post on the GDB calling me all sorts of pejoratives for how I acted and that this game was bad, this game's mom was bad, etc. I felt bad for about a minute. Then I looked back and said: nope, fuck it I did a great job.
Could I have done more? Maybe. The moral of the story is you can't win them all, and the good players on both sides take a moment to consider.
Makes you wonder just how many 'nooblars' 'estate killers' and such are actually good players getting a bad wrap from people who got what they deserved, and how many deserve that epithet. At least I hope it does.
Quote from: tapas on October 28, 2020, 05:57:03 AM
I do agree with Triste that leader players who tend lean on cheap estate kills etc. tend not to understand what the big deal is because A. It probably won't happen to them as a leader or through a string of leader characters. And B. It's a considerable source of coded power for leader PC's.
But then if you're not playing a leader and that bullshit gets sprung on you two or three times in a row, it becomes infuriating.
Basically this.
Quote from: roughneck
Your PC death will often be congruent with your playstyle. Don't like your deaths? Play differently.
Totally moot point. Some people are never allowed to play leaders due to undocumented rules around minimum play times. So when I whine about someone killing me by abusing code like guard summoning and clan dumping it's literally something I am never going to be allowed to experience other than experiencing it as a victim. So sorry, due to arbitrary rules like needing to sacrifice 10 hours a week to be a leader, this isn't just a "If you don't like it, play something different" scenario.
It's like we're playing a game of cops and robbers and I keep getting my ass arrested and I have one kid saying, "If you don't like being arrested, stop playing a robber," and another kid saying, "Sorry you are only allowed to play a role where you get arrested, we're never giving you power or authority here!" Ooooookay. The answer then becomes if you don't like being arrested, quit playing the game entirely.
When it comes to using NPC guards to arrest people, and using leader only commands to kill people, there is a huge imbalance of power that makes the answer to "Why did this PC die in a jail cell?" extremely fucking obvious. Literally stop blaming the victim, particularly when you stonewall some players out of leadership for arbitrary reasons.
To go with the cops and robbers metaphor, as a kid I was often forced to play villains because I was one of four latin kids in a predominantly asian school. Was me being type cast and forced to be beat up by the "good" kids right or fair? Hell fucking no. Is it ever right to force people into certain roles and out of certain roles for arbitrary and undocumented reasons? Hell no. Is it alright to kick someone on the ground and say, "Hahah if you don't like the pain of getting kicked, lick my boots instead?" Yes, if it's consensual, but if it's not and you are being forced to lick boots and you are being forced to be kicked for years without consent or hope for reversal then it sucks.
Again, it's easy for people who have been given privledge to forget empathy or even the logic and parameters of the game they are playing. The game isn't fair, which is fine, but there is only so much abuse people can endure and I am explaining what causes a lot of people to give up.
I will try to give up the point but my alignment is hella true neutral and the imbalance and blithe abuse of suffering people makes me go bonkers and spout quotes about restoring balance like Jahiera from Baldur's Gate. Probably why I play so many gicks and outdoorsy types: if you operate in a society that has given you a slave like status, you need to figure out how to break your chains somehow.
Quote from: Kryos on October 28, 2020, 06:55:38 AM
I'd like to put forth the following idea: the onus of exposition is not on the weapon that kills a player, but the hand that wields it.
The assassin is not responsible for anything other than carrying out the assassination.
The person that hired them better DAMN WELL be pounding out the conflict with the person to be assassinated.
The onus, and it is a great one, is on them.
When the two roles are wrapped into one, such as when you get 'estate ganked' is a reflection of the fact that person is trusted to do such things in a manner that is good for the game and the players. If you feel that isn't the case, you should probably take a day off, then come back and reflect. Was it really a bad scene and conclusion or are your emotions (and this game's RPI/Perma death/competitive nature's all evoke emotion in the player) clouding your judgement? If its the former, toss in a complaint. They deserve to know they fucked up. The latter? Roll another and take to heart the lessons offered.
Second, a short story.
I played a templar once, it was an interesting experience. Relevant to this thread is that there was a certain PC I found in jail. First time? No problem. look <criminal>. Doesn't look too wealthy. Crime: attacking NPCS. OK: give me 200 sid and get out of my sight, I don't want to see you again, understand? I took down a note this is a new player, and if they get caught again I should spice things up with opportunity if I could. They got caught again.
The next RL day they are back in jail, for the same crime. 'Remember how I told you I don't want to see you again? You've got a new punishment now. Get out of Allanak, go spy on <x> and report back to me. Do a good job and your banishment is over.' Escorted them to the gates, banished, and walked home. My character felt he had created an asset out of a liability, I as a player knew I did more to enhance the game experience than detract for a newbie: all is well. Right?
Wrong. The same RL day that player is back in jail and refused to do the task I asked of them. So I areaned them to death. At least they got to die gloriously right?
Wrong. That player wrote a post on the GDB calling me all sorts of pejoratives for how I acted and that this game was bad, this game's mom was bad, etc. I felt bad for about a minute. Then I looked back and said: nope, fuck it I did a great job.
Could I have done more? Maybe. The moral of the story is you can't win them all, and the good players on both sides take a moment to consider.
Makes you wonder just how many 'nooblars' 'estate killers' and such are actually good players getting a bad wrap from people who got what they deserved, and how many deserve that epithet. At least I hope it does.
I recognize the above happens and I've actually been in that position before as a militia sergeant.
But I've also been nailed by a templar who wouldn't take bribes, couldn't be negotiated with and made a judgement based on false accusations that could have easily been cross checked.
Quote from: tapas on October 28, 2020, 09:41:42 AM
But I've also been nailed by a templar who wouldn't take bribes, couldn't be negotiated with and made a judgement based on false accusations that could have easily been cross checked.
Redacted reply; accidentally posted about an incident that occurred 359 days ago, have to wait longer.
I have to explain the case without a poetic anecdote, then. Locked room, false accusation deaths are the epitome of sub-par politics and we can all do better. I think anyone able to see both sides gets this point. The more we talk about this, the more it becomes obvious that Staff should examine some code mechanisms at play here. It is possible to kill people inescapably and without their agency very easily if you [1] convince the leader of that person's clan to clan dump them while they are inside the compound, thus trapping them inescapably and [2] Simply don't listen to the person as you kill them, with whatever justification you manufacture. It's code abuse at point 1, and just someone being a jerk (ICly or not) at point 2. PKs motivated by or coordinated by metagaming are also shitty and a problem the game has but less specific to Allanak than the code abuse utilized by leadership PCs in Allanak.
Many people posting here romance the just-world fallacy and think people killed in backrooms are like moths who flew to the flame and deserved it. But no, there are clear cut cases of people being killed without "provoking" or "earning" their death and without agency such as in the clan-dump kill on false pretense scenario. How shocking that Tapas and I both experienced this. It's almost like moths aren't flying to flames, but that someone is walking around with a blowtorch killing moths while they just flutter around minding their own business. How shocking that a lot of players who have been killed in this way mention avoiding Allanak. It's almost like Allanak is full of so many blowtorch happy people that moths -- or anyone who doesn't like being burned -- shouldn't visit at all.
Staff, please let us know if clan-dump kills like what I describe are against the rules and I will pull my complaint from the GDB here and put it in a player complaint, but according to posters on the GDB
misusing code that way is A-OK.
QuoteSo sorry, due to arbitrary rules like needing to sacrifice 10 hours a week to be a leader, this isn't just a "If you don't like it, play something different" scenario.
As far as clans that I'm overseeing go, this isn't going to change. Sorry. Expecting what basically works out to an hour a night is not a big ask. This is in place because one does not out weight the enjoyment of 10-15 or more, pending leader life-time. Even with that min requirement, I can go back through the GDB and no doubt find a hundred smacks at leaders / clans for 'Never being around' and a ton more IC complaints on the same grounds with (potentially) meta bleed in of frustration. That single hour a night is going to attempt to entertain/engage X direct clannies, generate plots, run an hour long RPT to Y and allow Z for actual personal downtime fun and character growth RP. Meeting even /half/ of the metrics above would require that min 10 hours. These roles exist to generate fun for others. If others can never find you due to play times, the clan dies. PCs store from boredom, lack of direction, and the would be plots/stories have no means of being executed.
Is it 'fair' to the one? No. Is it fair to the ten others actively trying to move things to give that one the slot? No. Lesser of two evils.
QuoteStaff, please let us know if clan-dump kills like what I describe are against the rules and I will pull my complaint from the GDB here and put it in a player complaint, but according to posters on the GDB misusing code that way is A-OK.
Impossible to give a concrete 100% answer here. 9/10, absolutely ridiculous and staff will come down on (and have) leaders that pull this nonsense. It's lame. The only time it isn't lame, and thus the inability to say 100% is when players pull (and have) equally ridiculous behaviour inside of a clan/estate/tribe camp that would most certainly generate a frenzy smack down.
In short terms, leaders:
Unless players are pulling grievous offences inside the clan/House, don't pull the clan dump meta.
In short terms, clannies:
If you're CLEARLY cornered, RP it rather than the twink 'hide in plain sight' or 'flee rush the gates' past 20 people who WOULD try to stop you if a Sergeant/Noble yelled after your fleeing self. Try realism.
Thanks for the clear feedback on clan dump killing and leadership playtime requirements.
I keep playing this game with the hope that Staff do care (they do) and are trying to address some of the gameplay issues such as with the karma system. I still play this game because there are tolerable niches for you if you are an adequate roleplayer but can't play more than 10 hours a week, like being a tribal. Per the thread I miss niches that used to exist in the city like that, like city elf tribal or GMH hunter. I'll stop crying because staff mentioned maybe even working on city elves for instance.
The few times I was in position when the npcs would assist me and I could use that to kill my enemies, staffer 'always' told me not to use them for PK.
Ive been present in situation like that 4 times.
Once, I originated it. I lured one of my unofficial spies into my camp with 4 other of my tribe mates, and when he told me he will not work for my tribe anymore, I had 4 other PCs jump him. There were 3 NPCs in there and they helped too.
I can't say I got too much flack from staff that day. The PCs would be more then enough to kill the guy. But I was most definitely delivered the point that tribe tents weren't ment for executions.
I also saw a guildie straight out use NPCs to murder a dude. I also saw that NPC get animated and ask for payment from the guildie. Though I'm sure not every time this gets noticed by staff in real time.
Interesting thing about that spy that goes along the pk or not pk thing.
I was a young dealer of Akai sjir and only getting into the swing of things. The tribe had a weakish network of spies and one of those spies got seen being recruited by a Lirathans master assassin underworld enforcer.
I couldn't stop it. Didn't have the power, or the influence to outmatch a Lirathans operative, and nothing yet to really offer for the spy to choose not to disclose things he learned during work for my predecessor.
So about an hour after the spy got turned, I had him come to my tents, had a conversation, confirmed the spy is lost to us, had him die, then dumped him on the street with head smashed to look like he fell from a rooftop and watched the assassin who turned him find the body.
None of my other spies got turned and they all told me when they got approached by her.
The spy in question though? I bet he was wtfed. His murder was near instant and orchestrated by a PC 6 hours out of chargen. I could understand he'd be salty and think his death was unfair and uncalled for. But ... I'm sorry. This game is not about being fair. It's about stories of betrayal, corruption, and murder.
Quote from: Gentleboy on August 19, 2020, 03:53:28 AM
I think we all know it, but right now, Allanak has barely a population of players.
Why? What can we do to bring people to this 'RP Hub'? And honestly, is it worth pushing any RP into it?
Restating the OP in an attempt to re-rail a thread that has crisscrossed some interesting terrain.
I think apartments and apartment kills are not unique to Allanak.
Clan compound kills will happen wherever clans have compounds.
Templars are a staple of city-states and and have a godking given duty to squash criminal plots.
We might be able to get innovative with how we advertise job/RP openings in the city.
More locations and role-types is a double edged sword: more chemical reagents for conflict, dispersed playerbase.
I identified an issue back on like the second page of this thread that I thought addressed the OP, which others have stated and restated as well.
Allanak has always had a dominant position on the global stage - a Zalanthas superpower - but that the scales had tipped too far with Allanak the only player left on the stage, and that meant a lack of meaningful conflict to generate juicy storylines.
In the meantime since this thread started we've seen more activity on the Allanak rumor boards and with the Senate, and in the wake of those events Allanak and Allanakis will have more to do.
Gentleboy's original question had a couple parts. Why is Allanak kinda stagnant, and what can we do to breathe life into it (if it's worth breathing life into).
When answering the first part - Why? - let's try to make those observations specific to Allanak in this thread.
I think we're mostly agreed that Allanak is worth saving.
And maybe with the Senate and ensuing plotlines we have done/are doing it.
And unless and until Tuluk reopens we shall make the best of what resources and stories we have at our disposal to keep things interesting.
That's a pretty generous summary. I like it.
Every time there is an interesting character causing a little bit of interesting mischief before maxing their stealth skills they just get randomly templar'd. There's a reason people twink stealth to hell and back.
Quote from: Lotion on November 25, 2020, 08:23:02 PM
Every time there is an interesting character causing a little bit of interesting mischief before maxing their stealth skills they just get randomly templar'd. There's a reason people twink stealth to hell and back.
1) Not random.
2) IC actions have consequences.
3) You have no idea what occurred leading up to it.
4) You know better than to post things that happened recently in-game, that anyone who was in-game at the time would know you're referring to.
We must be thinking about different things.
I would suggest, though, that powerful characters try to figure out ways to let troublesome characters, who do not seem to be overly threatening to their lives, live when it can be explained away ICly. Not always. Just when they can.
Troublesome characters should be cool with getting a hand/fingers/foot/ear chopped off or getting castrated or whatever in order to live. When the player can mentally deal with it, they should try to be cool with "consent requested" scenes, and not just think about how hard it might be to play with a handicap or disadvantage. Obviously, they also have got to be able to accept that they might get whacked.
After all, how cool of a story might it be when the scarred templar and the one-handed elven eunuch assassin have their final showdown?
I'm not pointing to any particular event or death, just offering some (IMO) story-enhancing advice.
Sometimes it makes sense to maim/torture, other times it doesn't. There are IC consequences to IC actions, and sometimes it seems people get really confused about that. What sometimes doesn't seem like a big deal to your PC might be a huge deal to another PC, and so on.
I agree for the most part, and have seen most powerful PCs show incredible restraint in the last year or two, even when it ultimately leads to their own downfall (ironic).
I still remember fondly he day when my RF and a bunch of others captured three indies crossing the Tablelands. We brought them to our tents and the NPC tattooist made a slave tattoo on each one of them. Then we sold them to Tor.
The fact that they played along and everyone went out of their way to create the most content out of the situation and least amount of death.
Can I get some clarification on what is a regular troop versus an elite troop? The byn is doubtlessly grunt troops, but the Jade Sabers were routinely referred to as a group of soldiers that are something a bit more than the usual militia division. On top of that what would a non-elite group do? Stand gate guard? Patrol around? Don't we already have NPCs for this purpose? I can guarantee if that was on offer I'd be comfortable never playing a single "grunt" troop.
The Sabers effectively did the same thing as all of the other organizations nine out of ten times and that tenth time they were doing something specific to their group to set them apart. I don't really understand why we need 5 cookie cutter organizations open at once, but I also don't really understand why the byn needs to exist when that role could be filled by indies or a player created MMH group other than perhaps latrine cleaning RP.
Maybe it would be better to cycle through each of these groups every time there's one of those inevitable party wipes/loss of interest wipes?
PS: An errant thought; why do we need aides? Why does any Noble/Templar need aides? When they take the role they agree to be present often with consistent playtimes and any job they need done they can hire/order somebody to do, any protection they need they have a guard that will protect them. It seems like a waste of the player population that could be filling a role in the gameworld elsewhere.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 10, 2021, 05:51:47 PM
PS: An errant thought; why do we need aides? Why does any Noble/Templar need aides? When they take the role they agree to be present often with consistent playtimes and any job they need done they can hire/order somebody to do, any protection they need they have a guard that will protect them. It seems like a waste of the player population that could be filling a role in the gameworld elsewhere.
A good aide makes the life of any leader character, noble or otherwise, so much easier. If you want leaders that only stick around for 2 months and then burnout then I guess you could get rid of aides.
Or have a time limit on how long you can play a Noble until the next role call.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 10, 2021, 05:51:47 PM
PS: An errant thought; why do we need aides? Why does any Noble/Templar need aides? When they take the role they agree to be present often with consistent playtimes and any job they need done they can hire/order somebody to do, any protection they need they have a guard that will protect them. It seems like a waste of the player population that could be filling a role in the gameworld elsewhere.
So you can cover more than one timezone. The minimum requirement is playing 10 hours a week, that's like - 90 minutes a day, and may be between 3:30 and 5AM for someone in a different time zone. Your playtimes are also hidden from other players (except for the handful that have access to your clan board, if you post them there), so I have no idea when in a 24 hour period you'll be online. An aide with high playtimes that passes on messages makes that noble/templar PC much easier to reach.
How many roles are there that don't normally get aides, but still manage to play with others? Also a frequent occurrence I find is a revolving cast of aides getting killed because the Noble that people want dead knows it and only wants to log in the minimum amount of hours. Maybe they should be required to do their own shopping and make their own deals?
A Borsail Noble with a J name comes to mind back when I was playing Shakl of the Guild.
Not sure how long its been since I last played but on the topic of murdering characters that cause any sort of mischief or just don't have any strong backing.
My perception of the game when i stopped playing was that people playing sponsored roles had nothing better to do then dog pile that lone indie or murder any character or their friends/family who may not have decided to pick a max stealth class and twink their skills before chatting.
Can it be justified ICly? Sure. Is it fun? Not really. I am not sure if its changed and people have better things to do now but still don't feel like making another character to find out.
That said, I wish you all a Happy New Year.
Quote from: Barsook on January 10, 2021, 06:30:48 PM
Or have a time limit on how long you can play a Noble until the next role call.
+100000 to this
Some people have gotten to play more than 15 noble PCs while most people get to play 0. And that is f--king silly because any justification can't justify such a thoroughly unenjoyable situation in a
game.
When highborns go inactive without warning more than three weeks maybe autostore them. If me and other people are denied these roles due to "Low Playtimes" (sorry for having a life) then apply that rule fairly to everyone, including people who lied about their playtimes to get a role, or magically didn't have that standard applied to them like it was applied to other people
Serious question Triste: why do you want to play a noble so bad? Especially with limited playtimes it'll just be extremely limiting. For what it's worth I'm betting you could knock it out of the park but I'd also bet you'd enjoy it a lot less than you think you would. There are reasons many nobles store or go inactive.
Obligatory: I hate the implementation of PC nobles. Not anyone's specific noble. If you love the role awesome, I realize people have different tastes.
Quote from: SpyGuy on January 11, 2021, 09:52:28 AM
Serious question Triste: why do you want to play a noble so bad? Especially with limited playtimes it'll just be extremely limiting. For what it's worth I'm betting you could knock it out of the park but I'd also bet you'd enjoy it a lot less than you think you would. There are reasons many nobles store or go inactive.
Obligatory: I hate the implementation of PC nobles. Not anyone's specific noble. If you love the role awesome, I realize people have different tastes.
Since you asked a serious question I will seriously answer with yes, I would love to play this and I am tired of being told what "I would be good at playing" or not when you could simply give people the opportunity to prove themselves.
If I had to choose between two systems...
System A: Everyone gets to try and play the role they want to play at least once, because the first thing you learn on the playground is "share your toys."
System B: Only The Best Roleplayer gets the good roles and we must serve him and wait for him to rotate through them.
Well, I prefer System A. But we more have System B where 7 players get 25% of the roles and the rest of us are suckers.
Pardon me for looking at some numbers that were posted earlier and declaring them WACK
Well I have no power to give you the role. Not even sure if we've ever met IC. It's really not a hard role to RP, it's a difficult role on an OOC level imho because you need to cultivate relationships and rely on others to do most tasks. You can't even find decent justification to speak with half the player base.
I got the chance to play a noble pretty early on. I definitely had the playtimes as I could play during my summer job. After the novelty wore off I hated the role.
Not to be rude but I don't think you actually answered why you want to play a noble so bad. What about the role attracts you to it? Do you have a good idea on how you'd use it to create fun for others and even more importantly yourself? I'm genuinely curious because it sounds like you really want this role.
I don't apply to these roles anymore because I have given up at this point, but I have 3-4 totally distinct Noble concepts with more than six itemized goals per character. I've been told my applications are good except for playtimes.
IDK maybe despite typing thousands of words outlining what I want to do with these roles your question is somehow unanswered and I am applying for these roles without knowing what I want to do with them (?)
It is what it is: a silly elitist system (which we can improve)
I don't know of anyone who has played more than 2-3 nobles or Templars total over a period of 10+ years. I think you're being purposefully misleading.
I have played a lot of leadership total over 14 years and only 2 of them were nobles. (0 Templars.)
I also think you're being disingenuous about applying and/or not being accepted. If staff have really not accepted you after you applied to multiple roles then it must be some issue you haven't worked out with your play history, player to staff relations, or something else. Please stop posting this narrative that there is an issue here. Staff are actively wanting good applicants. Work out your issues with the request tool.
I don't think people are entitled to a role simply because they apply for it. Personally, if I was on Staff, I wouldn't want to reward the person loudly and often complaining on the GDB/Discord about being rejected for roles in the past and being passed over due to an 'elitist system'.
I'd want to give it to the person with a good-seeming attitude that is perhaps exemplified through a non-acerbic presence on discord/the GDB, seemingly low drama, who was excited for the opportunity, able to pivot once they are IG even if their initial goals don't find traction, communicates well, and has decent playtimes. I'm sure playtimes (particularly ones at EST peak) are desirable, but I've seen Nobles and Templars both that are off-peak pretty much all the time, and only an hour or two here and there. Through Aides and good planning, they've been successful enough.
I'm not sure 'low playtimes' is the entire reason you aren't being considered for the roles. Perhaps that is the line Staff are giving you to not be rude or perfectly honest with you, perhaps we don't know the entire story. But when you begin to air your personal laundry on a public forum like the GDB or Discord so consistently, it will invite scrutiny from your peers.
For those that wish to play a leader, here is a "guide" that I made for the community's benefit. The data shows that you just have to apply a few times and odds are you'd be accepted if you kept putting in enough effort. I'll also point out that my history as a player is very "checkered" in that I've frequently been in hostile situations with staff and/or other players. It's not insurmountable to even have "bad behavior" on your account and still be accepted, given enough time/growth.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56082.msg1051114.html#msg1051114
Also to add -- Staff often have a plan or vision for the role and its goals. My most recent application for an Allanaki Templar was declined due to 'wanting to go a different direction' with the role. It was not a fault of my application, of my playtimes, or my goals for the role. They just did not line up with where Staff wanted the role to be at that moment.
These are things to consider in acceptance or rejection of your PC concept -- It isn't necessarily a bad application. Or that you are a player they don't like, or that they didn't even like you and your application. It just doesn't mesh with how things are going IG, they got another applicant that ticks all the boxes, and they decide to pass.
I, too, have applied for many roles and been declined. But I don't let it turn into a chip on my shoulder.
To be clear, I don't have a "chip on my shoulder" and I mostly replied to back up Barsook, it was a good idea to fix a suboptimal system.
My beef is with suboptimal systems where only a few reap the rewards with only dubious meritocratic justification.
One of my side jobs is running mock technical interviews for people who want to be engineers. If our mock interview rubric abided by the sort of flimsy standards by which roles were doled out here, people would want their money back. I also conduct actual job interviews for the most selective company in the world in terms of hiring. If I held people to the wacky standards that we have over here during that job, I'd get fired or sued.
That's all, put a few braincells into coming up with a system that works for everyone [or at least a few more people], and thanks Barsook for the idea you posted.
Edit/Addition: 30 minutes after posting this my boss for the side job told me to specialize in giving the hardest / final interview because I am "good at it" and an hour after this post a student of mine emailed me because he just got a job and wanted to thank me for how I prepared him. Pretty funny that I was vilified for this post when my entire modus operandi is helping people
Quote from: triste on January 11, 2021, 02:22:17 PM
To be clear, I don't have a "chip on my shoulder" and I mostly replied to back up Barsook, it was a good idea to fix a suboptimal system.
My beef is with suboptimal systems where only a few reap the rewards with only dubious meritocratic justification.
One of my side jobs is running mock technical interviews for people who want to be engineers. If our mock interview rubric abided by the sort of flimsy standards by which roles were doled out here, people would want their money back. I also conduct actual job interviews for the most selective company in the world in terms of hiring. If I held people to the wacky standards that we have over here during that job, I'd get fired or sued.
That's all, put a few braincells into coming up with a system that works for everyone [or at least a few more people], and thanks Barsook for the idea you posted.
That's very condescending that you think staff aren't putting "a few braincells" into evaluating each application. It takes a lot of time and energy. They have also been known to accept people to give them a chance as an inexperienced player.
The issue isn't really with the system.
It isn't a job interview. It's more like auditioning for a role in a play. At the free adult community theatre down the street that's on the verge of closing. It isn't a paid position. It's undertaken for reasons of personal passion and the sake of permadeath fun. Not for $$$.
Quote from: Veselka on January 11, 2021, 02:56:12 PM
It isn't a job interview. It's more like auditioning for a role in a play.
If some of us are tired of being type cast I suppose there are other stages.
If it's some weird community theatre where only Bob and Fred can play the leading roles because the producers just love them, I suppose there are other stages.
I'd rather see all of our talents represented though. Seems like it'd be neat. Good idea Barsook.
Your welcome all, but thank you to whoever first brought up the idea on Discord. Friday, I think? I'm surprised that no one brought it up before me.
Not sure if I sounded snarky when I posed that.The main reason is to allow high turnover for certain Leadership roles and reduce the untoucableness of said roles. The problem is that plots die with the players of said leadership roles, but it doesn't seem to be that way based on what Vesekla said below:
Quote from: Veselka on January 11, 2021, 02:11:17 PM
Also to add -- Staff often have a plan or vision for the role and its goals. My most recent application for an Allanaki Templar was declined due to 'wanting to go a different direction' with the role. It was not a fault of my application, of my playtimes, or my goals for the role. They just did not line up with where Staff wanted the role to be at that moment.
I kind of wish that instead of the staff 100% allowing you to guess what the role and goals are if you haven't interacted with the previous leadership role, including Merchant House family members. But that's me and just applying blindly with my guess on what the staff is looking for because I was told to take a shot.
Quote
These are things to consider in acceptance or rejection of your PC concept -- It isn't necessarily a bad application. Or that you are a player they don't like, or that they didn't even like you and your application. It just doesn't mesh with how things are going IG, they got another applicant that ticks all the boxes, and they decide to pass.
I, too, have applied for many roles and been declined. But I don't let it turn into a chip on my shoulder.
Feedback is your best friend. Ask why it was rejected.
I'm often told exactly why it was rejected. I'm honest about my playtimes, my goals, and my experience. I'm usually told 'we went with another app, you made it to the last round, but we wanted to go another direction this time'. That's more than enough for me? I don't go into a sponsored role application or special application thinking I deserve to be selected. I write the application as best I can, i'm as transparent as possible about my RL limitations, and go from there. I never take it personally if I'm not selected for a role, so I guess I don't sit awake at night wondering 'why not me'.
I think it's totally fine for Staff to pick who they think will do best in the role, at that moment, without being 100% transparent with every applicant as to why they weren't selected. It's a game. I have just as much fun (if not more, sometimes) playing a perfectly mundane concept I came up with myself, and with fewer limitations on what it can do or what it is capable of. It's tea or coffee to me, when it comes to sponsored roles vs non-sponsored roles.
Fine. After a string of the same posts, let's go ahead and address it.
Each role-call that is put up varies drastically for response to it from the player base. Templars/Nobles tend to get more "bites" than others simply by nature of the role.
Triste, by nature of wanting a few brain cells used - here are 3 to explain how this works.
- You apply for a Templar. So do 14 other players. Guess what? 9 of those 14 have never played a Templar before, either. *gasp*
- 7 of those 9 players can actually engage and interact with 80 players due to their put forth play times, compared to your 3-5 players.
- 5 of those 9 players actually manage to stay alive for longer than a week on their sponsor/extended/spec-apps to avoid having to do the same thing all over again.
- Another 5 of 9 have some pretty kick-ass ideas that happen to line up with stories/plot hooks/content and direction of not just staff but jive with the player base in that particular area to elevate the fun for all.
- 12 of those 14 players don't constantly show themselves an absolute handful to deal with, on the GDB, Request tool, Discord and so on.
* Templars open for play once or twice a year, some times less. If 9 players haven't played, aren't a handful, have play times, ideas and so on to make them attractive to the role - Guess what? 3-4 years wait and reapplying to get it. (Not including any players that didn't apply the last time applying for the next 3-4)
* Nobles open for play roughly the same amount of times. Maybe a bit more often. Same applies as above. Cycle of 10 players to any one role call, some the same, some not.
* GMH, Byn, Garrison, Atrium, AoD, etc tend to see less interest and thus, there tends to be over-lap of acceptance for players willing to put in the time/effort to keep that area going for their fellow players and/or simply love the role.
* Someone gets 1 Templar, 1 Noble, 3 GMH, 2 Byn and 1 AoD over six RL years - ALL THE LEADERSHIP! BIAS! GARBAGE!
Or, you know - timing, repeated application attempts, lack of interest to X thing at that time from others and the various points as laid out above.
* = Example numbers as to how it can and often does work out.
Shabago (and the other staff), here's a two part question. What is the ideal turnover rate for each type of role and are those rates getting met?
The crux of this argument (and Barsook's follow up question) is the relative value of each category and the tremendous value of letting more players try these roles, not less.
The idea Barsook/whoever proposed puts value on new players getting a chance. This is the first category Shabago outlined. This is the theme of a lot of threads lately. If we were ascribing points to the rubric Shabago provided this should be worth a lot.
A lot of people replying directly to me seem to imply that the last "being a handful" category matters a lot, which is troubling as that comes down social bias by definition (what is "being a handful" besides a description of a preference for homophily and sameness). If we want a broad and interesting playerbase this last category should be worth very few points or none at all.
Thanks for the detailed response and opportunity to share our opinions on this, also interested in an answer to Barsook's follow up question.
Exactly triste. I haven't really played a sponsored role call for more than a month in real time for multiple reasons with one of them not having a clue on what the staff wants from said role or just not given the chance to play what I applied for before I get a long lived and/or a character that I like. That happened to me enough times starting with the Kassigarh Noble Role back in June of 2012 to the most recent one. Because of this, I feel like I forced into clanned roles where I aim for promoted leadership roles instead of sponsored ones.
Quote from: Barsook on January 11, 2021, 06:33:26 PM
Shabago (and the other staff), here's a two part question. What is the ideal turnover rate for each type of role and are those rates getting met?
Depends on the role and desired outcome of said role.
A Noble/Templar wants to pound away (while continuing to give fun/meet the role needs) to obtain Senior/Red Robe status and be stored with a "win"? Great. By theme, challenge and realism, that will likely take fifteen to twenty IC years of solid work.
Or, 2+ RL years.
After waiting N time to get the role, and if you're having fun with it/players are having fun around you? Great. I have no interest to implement 'Too bad, out of time.' standards.
As for meeting the metric of retiring/Senior/Red Robe status - I can only think of 4 off the top of my head?
The other roles tend to die well before that.
I think 2+ IRL years is too long for all of them. To me, half of a year to two IRL years should be the limit. Well, mostly on the Highborns. They just get untouchable if allowed to keep going and doesn't allow others to the try the role. Either have a life cycle that is reasonable or something else.
Some sponsored roles have their feet under them in a week, and some take two or three months. You can't ever tell how it is going to go.
Quote from: Barsook on January 11, 2021, 07:04:17 PM
I think 2+ IRL years is too long for all of them. To me, half of a year to two IRL years should be the limit. Well, mostly on the Highborns. They just get untouchable if allowed to keep going and doesn't allow others to the try the role. Either have a life cycle that is reasonable or something else.
Based on what? The primary goal isn't to cycle as many players as we can through these roles. The goal is to fill the roles with players that will use them to engage with the rest of the playerbase and drive (hopefully compelling) stories and plots. And sometimes you will end up with a Timotheo who sticks around forever, and sometimes you will end up with a Templar that gets PK'd inside of 3 months. And both may have great in terms of quality, which is what we are after.
Quote from: triste on January 11, 2021, 06:36:46 PM
The crux of this argument (and Barsook's follow up question) is the relative value of each category and the tremendous value of letting more players try these roles, not less.
Maybe tremendous value to certain players, but we are talking about the good of the game and the quality thereof, correct? Which this suggestion isn't necessarily supportive of.
In my opinion, there's already plenty of upper echelon turnover.
We see a decent amount of noble PC storage before the 6th month mark... and that hurts everything. It hurts burgeoning storylines that the PC had started or were starting because of the PC's presence. It hurts that new noble who started a month ago who's playtimes match up, and it hurts the older noble who knew exactly the way to hook your noble into a plotline as soon as your PC proves they're worthy. High visibility, high impact characters that store after making a splash and getting people interested in them are a big vexation.
Role permanency in high end roles allows for the continuation of plotlines, the preservation of in game history, and a tremendous source of newbie direction and interaction. Long lived nobles like Raleris, Timotheo, Lapitia, Rusimell, and so many others do so much for the game's story by not only the force of incredible roleplay chops, but also by creating an interactive part of the fabric of a city. They provide a force majeure that can impact people's stories again and again in profound ways.
Quote from: Brokkr on January 11, 2021, 07:17:16 PM
Quote from: triste on January 11, 2021, 06:36:46 PM
The crux of this argument (and Barsook's follow up question) is the relative value of each category and the tremendous value of letting more players try these roles, not less.
Maybe tremendous value to certain players, but we are talking about the good of the game and the quality thereof, correct? Which this suggestion isn't necessarily supportive of.
It just kills me that in my lifetime I might never get to play a bigshot leader on a silly game I've played intermittently since high school. This game is just so hardcore that I am gonna permadeath IRL before I get to know what it's like to permadeath as a Templar.
But I am trying to find the positive in everything -- let's keep recruiting players, so we can keep justifying a certain number of leadership roles, and so that more people (maybe) might get a chance to lead. We need more newbs so all of us playing now can be fancy leaders later, VOTE VOTE VOTE: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-sanvean.html
Since my idea was brought over to this topic I would like to clarify my point.
- My suggestion is to limit nobles/templars to 18-24 RL months with good "closing" plots to wrap up what they want to do. This gives them direction and sensible closure. I think this happens in most cases, already.
What this "soft rule" does is mostly encourage players to accomplish goals as opposed to "survival". That's it.
I wouldn't dream of telling nobles/templars that they have a limited shelf life. What I would do is just require that they create plots (with or without staff help), and push them forward. Simply requiring that they work to move the world would seem to be enough of a 'lifespan' to me.
If I were staff, perhaps I would be more lax with the red tape of helping them with their plots, since players can really bog down if they don't see advancement, but of course, I would be careful not to become too indulgent. But, having not been staff-side, I can only guess about how much staff already have to do. So perhaps I'd not be more lax at all.
But yeah, Friday, while I don't like shelf lives, I do agree that players of those roles should push forward the plots that move the world.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 11, 2021, 08:21:26 PM
But yeah, Friday, while I don't like shelf lives, I do agree that players of those roles should push forward the plots that move the world.
I'm fine with nobles/templars who stick around forever but have a positive impact on the game.
What I don't really enjoy is nobles/templars who have acquired so much "meta-currency" that they are nigh unstoppable juggernauts in politics.
I already said this a few times on Discord, but maybe Allanak doesn't resonate with me. Maybe I'm the problem, not Allanak.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 11, 2021, 08:31:33 PM
What I don't really enjoy is nobles/templars who have acquired so much "meta-currency" that they are nigh unstoppable juggernauts in politics.
That.
Quote from: Barsook on January 11, 2021, 08:36:37 PM
I already said this a few times on Discord, but maybe Allanak doesn't resonate with me. Maybe I'm the problem, not Allanak.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 11, 2021, 08:31:33 PM
What I don't really enjoy is nobles/templars who have acquired so much "meta-currency" that they are nigh unstoppable juggernauts in politics.
That.
Working as intended. Someone who is capable of playing a high value target with a long lifespan in Zalanthas's most deadly location should bloody well have some contacts, some pull, and some clout. Kudos to you for doing it right!
I'll confess, having a time limit in the back of my head will only encourage me to store. I work on something for half a year and in an epic showdown with another leader I lose and have my goals set back hard. Knowing that now, suddenly I am down and I'm half way out of time, I might just simply choose to store. That extra incentive to store will do no good for the game.
There is no benefit to putting a time limit on roles. I wouldnt mind established roles being challenged extra by the virtual world if they begin to accrue too much power.
I do think that Staff should be more generous with giving roles to people who will likely fail. Just provide enough opportunities for others to gain roles and let the better ones persevere. A good percentage of people who are eager to be noble will soon realize how disastrously difficult and unrewarding that role can be and they'll store themselves.
Quote from: Dar on January 11, 2021, 10:05:11 PM
I do think that Staff should be more generous with giving roles to people who will likely fail. Just provide enough opportunities for others to gain roles and let the better ones persevere. A good percentage of people who are eager to be noble will soon realize how disastrously difficult and unrewarding that role can be and they'll store themselves.
There's also those people who have every intent to play a good noble, and fail. But their next noble might be great, just because they failed the first time, and learned.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 10, 2021, 05:51:47 PM
Can I get some clarification on what is a regular troop versus an elite troop? The byn is doubtlessly grunt troops, but the Jade Sabers were routinely referred to as a group of soldiers that are something a bit more than the usual militia division. On top of that what would a non-elite group do? Stand gate guard? Patrol around? Don't we already have NPCs for this purpose? I can guarantee if that was on offer I'd be comfortable never playing a single "grunt" troop.
The Sabers effectively did the same thing as all of the other organizations nine out of ten times and that tenth time they were doing something specific to their group to set them apart. I don't really understand why we need 5 cookie cutter organizations open at once, but I also don't really understand why the byn needs to exist when that role could be filled by indies or a player created MMH group other than perhaps latrine cleaning RP.
Maybe it would be better to cycle through each of these groups every time there's one of those inevitable party wipes/loss of interest wipes?
I don't know how this got over looked but I agree that we should cycle through these elite groups.
I don't think the Byn's role could be filled by independents or a MMH, at least not easily. They're the one stop shop when you need some muscle. They work for just about everyone and fulfill needed functions like escorts, scouting and frontline grunts.
The problem with indies taking it over is that it's a logistical mess. The Byn can at least be expected to act like a unit when you hire them. If I need five people from a job but Amos only has 2 other guys but Malik can supply the other 2 will there be a problem with the chain of command? Also means I need to contact 2+ people to organize a contract. Relying on independents also means it'd be much harder for a new combat PC to find the training they need.
Right now I count 4 combat clans open: Byn, Wind, AoD and Garrison. At any one time I've only seen 2 or 3 of those groups with thriving PC populations and it tends to cycle based on leadership, number of combat PCs in the right area, ic events, etc.
For what it's worth I don't see any of those clans as 'elite'. At least not in and of themselves. That's the biggest problem I see with something like Tor Scorpions reopening, you can call yourselves elite all you want but you need to back it up with code. And I don't support giving coded benefits to the fancy clan alone.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on January 11, 2021, 09:53:22 PM
Quote from: Barsook on January 11, 2021, 08:36:37 PM
I already said this a few times on Discord, but maybe Allanak doesn't resonate with me. Maybe I'm the problem, not Allanak.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 11, 2021, 08:31:33 PM
What I don't really enjoy is nobles/templars who have acquired so much "meta-currency" that they are nigh unstoppable juggernauts in politics.
That.
Working as intended. Someone who is capable of playing a high value target with a long lifespan in Zalanthas's most deadly location should bloody well have some contacts, some pull, and some clout. Kudos to you for doing it right!
As the resident "fall guy" player, I found playing on the other side of the table to be astonishingly strange. I have mostly played the vulnerable antagonist.
This probably wouldn't be a highlighted problem for me as a player if we had a higher WHO count. These sort of issues magnify when you can only run into so many other PCs.
I suppose we'll just disagree about the premise of the gameplay but I see where staff is coming from in the workload to reward argument.
Quote from: SpyGuy on January 12, 2021, 07:30:12 AM
-snip-
Every merchant houses hunting division was removed to the betterment of Indie hunters. I imagine the same argument you just made at me was also made as a reaponse to their removal. Recall that the Wind is also advertised as a mercenary group and was wholely playermade, so we know it can and does work. Additionally Rin's group was a staple in Luirs for a time and had a larger amount of players in it than the Garrison or Fist at the time. Do you seriously think the game benefits from having up to three (the max I've ever seen) unique squads of Bynners open at the same time?
Additionally, your understanding of elite is flawed. Elite isn't the things you get, but the things you're doing. The special forces in the US military aren't considered elite because they get to shoot cool guns, but because they're sneaking behind enemy lines and setting up demolitions, killing high value targets, or working with rebel organizations to reinforce a proxy war. None of these are things you could reasonably expect private Mahanahan to do because he was never trained to do more than shoot straight, sit on watch, and march properly.
By this logic, nobles would be considered elite because they can afford sharper blades and thicker shell.
Elite groups should be elite because they're doing the things that most players actually want from Allanak military, such as offensive action towards Tuluk/raiders, scoutingg and securing valuable resources, organizing tribal groups to make things difficult for enemies.
Certain clans only seem fun if there are active leaders in that clan or very specific situations.
Noble houses (to me) seem the least fun, almost always because they rely on nobles that for the most part seem to never be around. Additionally, they have a lot of restrictions that just seem to make them too reliant on even the other PCs in the clan (let alone the noble).
The militia only seems to be fun if there's a templar or active "negative" plots (like gangs to exterminate, subterfuge, or other nefarious-ness). Like sometimes the militia seems like it could be ALOT of fun, but it seems relational to immortal plots.
The Byn seems to be the least reliant on that... it can even be fun without leaders (for a time) - but can die out similarly without leaders (at a lesser rate).
Aren't indies then the least reliant on strong leadership or imm plots?
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2021, 01:49:32 PM
Aren't indies then the least reliant on strong leadership or imm plots?
Indies are supposed to be the last-invited to big plots and whatnot, because clans have Leadership and Staff oversight. Clans and leaders should be driving the plotlines, and your "twink ranger who never talks to anyone" isn't invited because they're not clanned-up.
Indies are the least reliant, but also the least supported when it comes to plotlines.
Well yeah, I meant out of clans. I think clans offer a benefit.
The eco system in Allanak should, to me, be something like this to have a healthy play:
Large amount of unclanned (grebbers, hunters, magickers, minor criminals, self-starters, whatever).
This is more like a global pool that other "hubs" would utilize.
Criminal clans (rinth or otherwise) - limited population to sow strife, terrorize unclanned and clan, and serve greater plot.
Houses (noble + gmh) - limited population that encourage unclanned to do things, provide targets for murder and intrigue, serve greater plots
Byn - limited population that provide services to unclanned and clanned (training, contracts, etc), serve greater plots
Arm - limited population with templars to police, cause/solve strife, serve greater plots.
Too much or too little of one directly messes up the other. If were playing off the notion that Allanak is the metropolis, it should be discouraged to have its active population less than other places. Like there shouldn't be 50 active players in Morins and 10 in Allanak.
Personally I'd like to see Allanak destressed in terms of clans and a more central place like Luirs be the hub.
Or at least time-based rotations.
Quote from: Riev on January 12, 2021, 01:58:17 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2021, 01:49:32 PM
Aren't indies then the least reliant on strong leadership or imm plots?
Indies are supposed to be the last-invited to big plots and whatnot, because clans have Leadership and Staff oversight. Clans and leaders should be driving the plotlines, and your "twink ranger who never talks to anyone" isn't invited because they're not clanned-up.
Indies are the least reliant, but also the least supported when it comes to plotlines.
Seems like clans immediately become useless when their leadership is offline. Imagine all the times when you've wayed one of the five guys who weren't sergeant and they said "uh... Let me ask". Also, none of the things you mentioned are necessary for hunting plots, scouting, guarding, etc.
Anecdotally, I have never once been able to get the byn to do more than one single contract, a ride along from Allanak to Luirs for the Fale aide I was playing, Suza. Aside from that one time the myriad of other times I've tried to get them to do anything they couldn't get their shit together long enough to do it. Maybe it was leadership? Maybe lack of manning? And yes, maybe in all of those cases throughout my time playing it was justified IC reasons.
I think indie groups have less restrictions and thus can be far more dynamic than any of the proper clans, which is probably why they pop up so often.
Uh. *Looks at Byn schedule of 5-10 contracts a RL week.*
???
Quote from: Is Friday on January 12, 2021, 02:57:12 PM
Uh. *Looks at Byn schedule of 5-10 contracts a RL week.*
???
Maybe I'm not doing the secret handshake? That has been my experience, bud.
It can get to 5 contracts a week, sometimes its even more. But more isn't sustainable for anyone.
How much notice are you giving?
What sorts of contracts (certain kinds are discouraged)?
Clanned or established Indie?
Depending on how many troopers & runners you have (you can't do certain jobs if you only have runners, for instance) will dictate which jobs you can do. Playtimes also determine.
The few times I've played a Byn Sarge it usually amounts to 2-6 contracts a RL week depending on what's going on. Sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more. If there is more than 1 Sarge there's usually more contracts to be had. The "Mercenary" change to the clan has allowed a lot more leeway for the small fry Mercs to get their easy peasy escort duties. This allows the Sergeant to concentrate on the "big jobs".
Big jobs are usually 1-2 a week. The kind requiring the full force and a few hours.
Little jobs are, when you're the only Sarge, untenable to sustain because you can't do it all yourself. (Which is why you want Mercs who can do jobs and not die.) If I'm playing a Byn Sarge I have to prioritize the contracts coming from Templars/Nobles/GMH or what ends up happening is they get all pissy and try to kill my Sarge.
Quote from: Brokkr on January 12, 2021, 04:38:33 PM
How much notice are you giving?
What sorts of contracts (certain kinds are discouraged)?
Clanned or established Indie?
Enough that they have literal IRL weeks to determine they can't do it.
Scouting locations, fighting enemy clans, bolstering hunting parties.
Clanned for all of the above, but I've also attempted similar contracts with EI.
The last few excuses were not enough manning to perform these and "We'll think about it".
I can't really imagine that scenario unless they were doing it on purpose to your PC, tbh.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2021, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: SpyGuy on January 12, 2021, 07:30:12 AM
-snip-
Elite groups should be elite because they're doing the things that most players actually want from Allanak military, such as offensive action towards Tuluk/raiders, scoutingg and securing valuable resources, organizing tribal groups to make things difficult for enemies.
This gets a +1 from me. A lot of this stuff is also time intensive for staff to set-up and run through to completion though.
Something less intensive could be just plopping down threats that would require such units to take action. If not? Add to it over time and roll out another couple of scouts in the area. In a couple of months there is either one less problem because players dealt with it, or a small raider camp has grown and needs to be squashed through a more consolidated effort across multiple groups/clans.
An RPT grows when staff have time to invest at that point.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2021, 11:36:11 AM
Quote from: SpyGuy on January 12, 2021, 07:30:12 AM
-snip-
Additionally, your understanding of elite is flawed. Elite isn't the things you get, but the things you're doing. The special forces in the US military aren't considered elite because they get to shoot cool guns, but because they're sneaking behind enemy lines and setting up demolitions, killing high value targets, or working with rebel organizations to reinforce a proxy war. None of these are things you could reasonably expect private Mahanahan to do because he was never trained to do more than shoot straight, sit on watch, and march properly.
Elite: (adjective) superior in quality, rank, skill, etc.
Maybe I wasn't clear. My meaning was I don't see any of those groups as being elite until they can prove they can do those special forces type jobs or other impressive deeds. That takes quality leadership in the clan and a solid backing of coded skills so you can actually do it. Of course elite has nothing to do with what fancy weapons you have, that's why I think it's silly to call the PC unit of the Arm the 'elite soldiers' all the time (to be fair I don't see this happening).
As for the Byn, I just disagree. Indy hunters are a completely different matter. Anyone who knows how to play a wilderness combat PC can fulfill the basic role of a hunter. Actual leadership and coordination for a big job is much harder and helps to have clan support. If there are 3 active units of the Byn I assume that means there are 3 active engaging leaders in the Byn and that there are enough PCs wanting to play Bynners to fill out the ranks. Don't worry, it probably won't be long before one or two of them die. It's much better to have 2 or 3 units of frontline grunts so that when one dies those trying to use the Byn to push forward plots aren't stuck waiting for someone to app in a new Byn Sergeant.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 12, 2021, 06:31:15 PM
I can't really imagine that scenario unless they were doing it on purpose to your PC, tbh.
Going to have to agree with Friday on this one. I've never had issues securing contracts from indie, aide or noble unless there was a lack of Byn at the time to even accomplish it or the Sergeant was not accepting/overcharging on purpose.
Back when I was playing a noble that started with a "J" there were -many- contracts with the Byn going on constantly. Often though the Byn is feast or famine.
Quote from: lairos on January 15, 2021, 11:00:41 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on January 12, 2021, 06:31:15 PM
I can't really imagine that scenario unless they were doing it on purpose to your PC, tbh.
Going to have to agree with Friday on this one. I've never had issues securing contracts from indie, aide or noble unless there was a lack of Byn at the time to even accomplish it or the Sergeant was not accepting/overcharging on purpose.
Back when I was playing a noble that started with a "J" there were -many- contracts with the Byn going on constantly. Often though the Byn is feast or famine.
That Noble is the reason my Byn unit first explored the 'new' Jakhal dens and it was quite an adventure!
On a different PC, he also hired us to kill a certain person.
I'm a long standing Byn player, most people would probably agree. I don't understand the "Byn never takes contracts" stance.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2021, 05:11:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on January 12, 2021, 04:38:33 PM
How much notice are you giving?
What sorts of contracts (certain kinds are discouraged)?
Clanned or established Indie?
Enough that they have literal IRL weeks to determine they can't do it.
Scouting locations, fighting enemy clans, bolstering hunting parties.
Clanned for all of the above, but I've also attempted similar contracts with EI.
The last few excuses were not enough manning to perform these and "We'll think about it".
I guess there are always upswings and lulls.
I can say that the last three of my Byn characters, we had contracts ranging from every single fucking day to two times a week. Not all of them glamorous obviously.
As an addition to 'what makes a soldier elite':
As noted, elite soldiers get to do elite-soldier things. They are about pinpoint, precision, and efficacy...it's very hard to actually code into the game (which is why some players focus hard on how we -can- code in the eliteness without breaking things). The point I'd add to it is that elite soldiers are usually -exposed- to different things in the game. The Byn? 'We have a mission! We need to do this!'. The elite? 'We need some way to get this done. If we can't, we have this problem. If we do, we have this problem, but this solution. We're in this position right now, and this force and this force mean x for us.'
During the 'bodyguard' era of the game...you were a soldier who was trusted to stand in a room with the big political players, be exposed to the progression of plots going on, and hear plans and ideas of what may happen moving forward. In other words, you were a buff soldier in the case of someone attacking your fragile political driver (which was more common in this era), but you were also someone who was 'in the know' of the events of your clan. You could turncoat and spread that information and really fuck up your group if you didn't truly support them.
Grunt soldiers never get exposed to this 'full view' of things when plots are substantive and based around conflict and progression. Byn < Arm < Noble Elite Squads, by nature of the Arm being an 'official' mix of grunt soldiers. I'm not certain where that stands today.
On role selection:
It's super important to not take role selection personally. You apply, you give some idea of how you want to do things, and you see if it lines up with what the staffer wants. They already have in mind -something- that improves the game or the state of the game when they open up the role call. It's 'We need someone to fulfill this obligatory function of this clan, while also adding in this special something to the role that expands it.' I've tried to apply for templars, nobles, special ranks, etc...the only times I'm accepted is when I have ideas or goals for the character that not only line up with the purpose of the role call, but also make the role compelling. I've been rejected from roles just as much and probably more than I've been accepted for them...and that's not something to turn into an ego oriented thing. Often, it has nothing to do with you as the player, it has to do with not kicking that kick in the cool-balls that some applications give...and often, someone else applying for that role is kicking that staffer in the cool-balls. 'Damn, that's gonna be really cool.'
To limit those roles in their longevity...it likely has some pros to it. But from my vantage point in those roles, there's a -lot- of things in the game that can delay what you want to do. I've no problem with people becoming politically power. I've got problems when it happens without it naturally building enemies, which is largely a player perspective thing for me. That guy should have at least a few people actively working to get him dead. That guy should have a few more that really want to muck up their plans. That guy should have a larger swell of people who are neutral to him but can be swayed with proposals of benefit. That guy should have 1-3 true political allies through their dealings. That guy should have a super loyal entourage of minions with the possibility of turncoats based on their own actions, or plots of another.
Simply put, these people are far from invulnerable, and if they're just surviving too long as a whole...ya'll gotta get cutthroat more easily. I've said it many times before, and I'll continue to say it as long as Arm continues. Long-lived characters, when it becomes an expectation instead of a goal, are stagnation in this game. Even someone running a plot every 3 weeks...that's boring, unless that event comes with inherent risk of loss in failure, and inherent risk of loss for someone else in success. Everything else just creates more things for players to ignore or feel half-hearted about.
Get mean, folks. Not because other players deserve it, but because they should be able to handle it because it's what makes a high impact roleplaying game.
I'm sure we talked about how the meta shifted to people hiding in private places but is it due to the excessive distrust? Or is that due to something else?
Quote from: Barsook on January 18, 2021, 03:24:27 PM
I'm sure we talked about how the meta shifted to people hiding in private places but is it due to the excessive distrust? Or is that due to something else?
I think trust is a part of it. 0-karma dwarves aren't really a thing, of late, but people would prefer to idle behind a safe wall than at a bar. The Gaj is almost always dead, and other taverns seem to have "semi-AFK" people that aren't there to talk to YOU.
I try not to "hide" in private places, but the players in my time-zone and sphere seem to not engage in public scenes nearly as often. Mostly nods, grunts, "buy you a drink?" and AFK until the sun comes up again.
But I think its more about people wanting to remove risks of loss or death to THEIR characters, while espousing how much the game needs more loss and death. Everyone wants raiders, but they don't want to deal with the ramifications of being raided. They want Templars who are corrupt assholes, but they want to be the ones corrupting them, and not the targets.
Make sense.
When did this meta shift happen? After the closure of Tuluk?
Quote from: Barsook on January 18, 2021, 07:06:36 PM
Make sense.
When did this meta shift happen? After the closure of Tuluk?
I think its been slow rolling. Closure of Tuluk, advent of different Karma rules, different karma options, extended subguilds. All the stuff that makes the game easier to get into and play, also kind of reinforced the idea that you need to 'stay alive longer' in order to achieve your goals.
Up to, and including, staff looking for sponsored roles to stay alive 3-4 MONTHS before some plots and other events start getting rolling.
Those things were a factor easily 10-15 years ago. Ages before Tuluk closure. I don't really think any of this caused this as much as a simple fact of aged playerbase.
Those people who are at the bar in the semi afk state constantly. Those are the people who are playing at work and are simply gettin a small piece of arm while otherwise irl too busy to play.
That's true, actually. We squeeze in some Arm when we can get it.
QuoteThose people who are at the bar in the semi afk state constantly. Those are the people who are playing at work and are simply gettin a small piece of arm while otherwise irl too busy to play.
Squeezing in some work...giving the kids attention...washing the dishes...bringing the laundry in...feeding the cat...etc etc.
Just a bunch of old bastards now. ;D
Quote from: Riev on January 18, 2021, 08:02:27 PM
Up to, and including, staff looking for sponsored roles to stay alive 3-4 MONTHS before some plots and other events start getting rolling.
Where did you hear that?!
ETA: It does makes sense, as plots do take time to happen (something that really isn't seen in fiction, as in you see the end), but this requirement is somewhat harsh. Unless the staff allows those roles to collect resources during that time. Also, is that IRL time?
Quote from: Barsook on January 19, 2021, 05:35:14 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 18, 2021, 08:02:27 PM
Up to, and including, staff looking for sponsored roles to stay alive 3-4 MONTHS before some plots and other events start getting rolling.
Where did you hear that?!
ETA: It does makes sense, as plots do take time to happen (something that really isn't seen in fiction, as in you see the end), but this requirement is somewhat harsh. Unless the staff allows those roles to collect resources during that time. Also, is that IRL time?
It gets mentioned every once in a while, typically by Brokkr. Its not a hard-line "No plots till you're 90d old" or something. Its the general idea that between finding aides and allies, cooking up plots, involving staff, and getting the OKAY from Producers, it tends to take MONTHS for stuff to get off the ground.
Which is PERSONALLY irritating because a PC's world changes in minutes. Even seconds. But a Leadership PC has to wait months.
It is my belief that it lends itself to the idea that you "have to stay alive" in order to get things done. WILL staff support you on a week old character? Maybe. If they like you, have time to do something, your plot doesn't change the world at all, and the local admin says its okay.
Quote from: Riev on January 18, 2021, 08:02:27 PM
It gets mentioned every once in a while, typically by Brokkr. Its not a hard-line "No plots till you're 90d old" or something. Its the general idea that between finding aides and allies, cooking up plots, involving staff, and getting the OKAY from Producers, it tends to take MONTHS for stuff to get off the ground.
Which is PERSONALLY irritating because a PC's world changes in minutes. Even seconds. But a Leadership PC has to wait months.
It is my belief that it lends itself to the idea that you "have to stay alive" in order to get things done. WILL staff support you on a week old character? Maybe. If they like you, have time to do something, your plot doesn't change the world at all, and the local admin says its okay.
I must respectfully disagree.
I think a new noble can immediately begin small plots such as hiring staff, scouting, gathering information, or throwing parties.
However, a newbie noble should start at the bottom of the political power hierarchy. Don't expect your new noble to lead an army to conquer Red Storm after 6 weeks. Don't forget that as nobles age they acquire more political influence, allies, titles, and larger stipends. It wouldn't fit the game theme for a new noble to arrive equal to his more accomplished peers. Just as it wouldn't make sense for a new warrior to arrive with the same combat prowress as a seasoned veteran.
As a player, I've found that there is a lot of freedom in the game especially if your patient, well planned, careful, and advance yourself with incremental improvements. Just don't expect to run before you learn to crawl.
Quote from: williamson on January 22, 2021, 02:20:53 PM
As a player, I've found that there is a lot of freedom in the game especially if your patient, well planned, careful, and advance yourself with incremental improvements. Just don't expect to run before you learn to crawl.
I think this what we are forgetting for sure. Well said. A sense of real time, in the game world, is one of the biggest plus of Arm. Even I do dislike it at time, but it's something that I don't really see anywhere.
Hello all, I just want to say that I've been having a baller time lately.
Anyway, I got a new gripe with Nak.
Staff, you promise rpts and you all do a great job of it. RPTs in Allanak.... it's like a slow-burn fluctuating on political dramas that end with someone dying and everyone being so fucking glad that the weak-link in the plot is dead that they want the plot to be over with. Or spiders. Or war or something. Or things that normal people who aren't nobles or warriors (for the violent plots) can't see. I would have loved to see the political drama of the senate but could not due to my character at the time. Court room dramas are my jam. I want more.
I love some good drama. I would love some RPTs centered in the city with more political drama plots, ones that commoners can have more of a view on or say on. Cause, why go to Allanak as a player if it's not for that tasty pseudo Mr. Darcy vs Miss Havisham duel?
Quote from: Gentleboy on April 26, 2021, 01:41:49 AM
I love some good drama. I would love some RPTs centered in the city with more political drama plots, ones that commoners can have more of a view on or say on. Cause, why go to Allanak as a player if it's not for that tasty pseudo Mr. Darcy vs Miss Havisham duel?
That.
I know that Tuluk is on it's fourth MAJOR reversion but how many reversions has Allanak gone through? I'm just wondering if Allanak needs a reversion, if it didn't go through one.
MAJOR reversions here, not minor.
Quote from: Barsook on September 26, 2021, 12:47:15 PM
I know that Tuluk is on it's fourth MAJOR reversion but how many reversions has Allanak gone through? I'm just wondering if Allanak needs a reversion, if it didn't go through one.
MAJOR reversions here, not minor.
As far as I recall, the biggest revision was in 2000/2001.
An earthquake happened, and the city changed (and grew) and Melith's Circle became a rectangle.
But did that change how Allanak works? Or did it stay the same?
Besides the 2000/2001 map changing - which was a rezone of the Labyrinth, Commoners, Magickers, Bazaar, Merchants area...
Most of Allanak changes have been incremental:
* Added Rentable Apartments
* Re-Added T'zai Byn as a clan to join and made it more newplayer friendly.
* Added Tor Scorpions
* Added Tor Academy
* Redone Bard's Barrel to the Red's Retreat
* Added Oashi Wineshop
* Added Atrium
* Added Arboretum
* Added Apartments to Gaj
* Closed up the Magicker area
* Added Warehouses
* Changed Allanaki Templar political ranking progression
* De-Virtulized 'Virtual Noble Houses'
Quote from: Barsook on September 26, 2021, 12:57:05 PM
But did that change how Allanak works? Or did it stay the same?
The change in how templars worked have been a significant change.
The warehouses was also a significant change.
Aside that. What exactly are you looking for? Democracy?
I'm not sure what I'm looking for, maybe because Allanak and Tuluk are different beasts with different themes. Or, as a player, I don't understand Allanak just as much as I do about Tuluk. Which is the basics but the why of basics. Something like that. It was just a thought when I posted that question.
Those answers did help though.
I think things are going.. okay.
The tools we need are set up, now we need more of a playerbase and stable numbers.
Allanak is beginning to evolve a bit with the times. Now all we need... is... STREETLAMPS.
I think allanak's public/non-restricted areas are wayyyyy too big rn for a playerbase that is smaller than it was and also now split between two hubs. I feel maybe some shrinking might encourage more mingling? At the very least all the "key" locations could somehow be brought closer to each other maybe?
We could use with some earthquakes that slash away bits of the city or maybe some roadwork projects that make certain roads quicker to traverse (like those "skip" rooms around the bazaar)
In particular I never really liked gickers or how extravagant their temples are maybe those cursed places could use some "resizing"
Add more gick clans.
I saw an ig board post about how human pc gemmers weren't allowed to join a specific player run clan that hired them and were required to join coded clans that would hire them instead which I thought was rather silly. If working for Oash Circle or redacted is supposed to be a better alternative than working for a non human pc's player owned clan then why did they have to be forcibly herded in that direction?
I have no clue honestly as the last pc I tried to play in Allanak I stored out of boredom very quickly and if I ever get into a gem or death situation I'm probably just going to type quit ooc storing and put in a storage request.
Not sure if this is the right place to post my gripes but:
1: I find it odd we use the military as the police/guard force. From my understanding most civilizations separated these, both because you don't need the people policing your populace to be outfitted in plate mail and swords and also because they preform two highly different functions (Yes, I know Templar's are 'technically the only ones who can arrest people' but should the army really be the one chasing criminals?
This complaint/gripe is mostly because...
2: It was definitely the job of the town guard to light lanterns and torches, and becomes more awkward if we add those and require soldiers to do it. Would be an excellent shit job. Post street lamps on certain cross roads and have it when they are lit they provide 2 room lighting, and have it so only certain ones or each one has a chance of lighting. It is up to recruits (Or whatever the possible guard force in general) to light these at night to help provide safety. I'd even suggest having npc muggers or criminals attack people if these aren't lit, or a chance of such a thing to happen.
This doesn't really deal with the overall 'I hate Allanak because' theme, or just complaints in general, but I didn't see a 'Allanak ideas' thread.
Quote from: Lotion on September 27, 2021, 03:24:46 PM
I saw an ig board post about how human pc gemmers weren't allowed to join a specific player run clan that hired them and were required to join coded clans that would hire them instead which I thought was rather silly. If working for Oash Circle or redacted is supposed to be a better alternative than working for a non human pc's player owned clan then why did they have to be forcibly herded in that direction?
I have no clue honestly as the last pc I tried to play in Allanak I stored out of boredom very quickly and if I ever get into a gem or death situation I'm probably just going to type quit ooc storing and put in a storage request.
It is my interpretation that quit OOC should not be used to avoid in-game consequences. I believe the helpfile warns that such use could result in loss of the ability.
Quote from: williamson on September 27, 2021, 03:56:21 PM
Quote from: Lotion on September 27, 2021, 03:24:46 PM
I saw an ig board post about how human pc gemmers weren't allowed to join a specific player run clan that hired them and were required to join coded clans that would hire them instead which I thought was rather silly. If working for Oash Circle or redacted is supposed to be a better alternative than working for a non human pc's player owned clan then why did they have to be forcibly herded in that direction?
I have no clue honestly as the last pc I tried to play in Allanak I stored out of boredom very quickly and if I ever get into a gem or death situation I'm probably just going to type quit ooc storing and put in a storage request.
It is my interpretation that quit OOC should not be used to avoid in-game consequences. I believe the helpfile warns that such use could result in loss of the ability.
What're you gonna do? Store me?
- man about to store
Quote from: williamson on September 27, 2021, 03:56:21 PM
Quote from: Lotion on September 27, 2021, 03:24:46 PM
I saw an ig board post about how human pc gemmers weren't allowed to join a specific player run clan that hired them and were required to join coded clans that would hire them instead which I thought was rather silly. If working for Oash Circle or redacted is supposed to be a better alternative than working for a non human pc's player owned clan then why did they have to be forcibly herded in that direction?
I have no clue honestly as the last pc I tried to play in Allanak I stored out of boredom very quickly and if I ever get into a gem or death situation I'm probably just going to type quit ooc storing and put in a storage request.
It is my interpretation that quit OOC should not be used to avoid in-game consequences. I believe the helpfile warns that such use could result in loss of the ability.
The notion that a player should be required to continue playing a character they no longer wish to play is ridiculous.
Quote from: Lotion on September 27, 2021, 09:26:36 PM
Quote from: williamson on September 27, 2021, 03:56:21 PM
Quote from: Lotion on September 27, 2021, 03:24:46 PM
I saw an ig board post about how human pc gemmers weren't allowed to join a specific player run clan that hired them and were required to join coded clans that would hire them instead which I thought was rather silly. If working for Oash Circle or redacted is supposed to be a better alternative than working for a non human pc's player owned clan then why did they have to be forcibly herded in that direction?
I have no clue honestly as the last pc I tried to play in Allanak I stored out of boredom very quickly and if I ever get into a gem or death situation I'm probably just going to type quit ooc storing and put in a storage request.
It is my interpretation that quit OOC should not be used to avoid in-game consequences. I believe the helpfile warns that such use could result in loss of the ability.
The notion that a player should be required to continue playing a character they no longer wish to play is ridiculous.
OOC: I'm requesting death instead of gem.
Expecting your fellow players to be left jarred right out of their scene by a sudden log out and utter avoidance of RP due to an OOC aspect is far from appropriate.
Quote from: Shabago on September 27, 2021, 09:30:52 PM
Quote from: Lotion on September 27, 2021, 09:26:36 PM
Quote from: williamson on September 27, 2021, 03:56:21 PM
Quote from: Lotion on September 27, 2021, 03:24:46 PM
I saw an ig board post about how human pc gemmers weren't allowed to join a specific player run clan that hired them and were required to join coded clans that would hire them instead which I thought was rather silly. If working for Oash Circle or redacted is supposed to be a better alternative than working for a non human pc's player owned clan then why did they have to be forcibly herded in that direction?
I have no clue honestly as the last pc I tried to play in Allanak I stored out of boredom very quickly and if I ever get into a gem or death situation I'm probably just going to type quit ooc storing and put in a storage request.
It is my interpretation that quit OOC should not be used to avoid in-game consequences. I believe the helpfile warns that such use could result in loss of the ability.
The notion that a player should be required to continue playing a character they no longer wish to play is ridiculous.
OOC: I'm requesting death instead of gem.
Expecting your fellow players to be left jarred right out of their scene by a sudden log out and utter avoidance of RP due to an OOC aspect is far from appropriate.
As a former Templar player I experienced this more than once: PC's who REALLY pushed their luck, punishment was being prepared and then POOF. They're gone.
I'll be honest, I am sad to hear some of these responses. This type of thinking is what letting people who don't like their character suicide themselves only to kill their enemy XYZ.
Folks. We're playing a roleplaying game. Whether anything can be done to your character, or not due to ooc reasons, you should still maintain the continuity of the story.
I'm confused.
If the story of your PC isn't going exactly as you plan, or as you desire, or as you predicted...
You quit OOC and store the PC?
What game are you playing?
Quote from: Veselka on September 28, 2021, 03:08:44 AM
I'm confused.
If the story of your PC isn't going exactly as you plan, or as you desire, or as you predicted...
You quit OOC and store the PC?
What game are you playing?
Sounds like.. single player? :p
'Folks. We're playing a roleplaying game. Whether anything can be done to your character, or not due to ooc reasons, you should still maintain the continuity of the story.'
I mean, I don't necessarily agree.
I mean I kinda do.
I think the staffers response is about how I feel about it. If you don't want to be gemmed, OOC: Hey, kill me.
We have rules for being mutilated and what not, I don't see the issue. Some people don't want to be a gemmed-slave character, and that's fine.
If you all think not wanting to be gemmed is some crazy crime against roleplay, wait till you find out you can request to be killed over losing a hand or a few fingers. I think losing a hand is a lot less 'important' to a character's life than possibly having a gem put on.
Quote from: Veselka on September 28, 2021, 03:08:44 AM
I'm confused.
If the story of your PC isn't going exactly as you plan, or as you desire, or as you predicted...
You quit OOC and store the PC?
What game are you playing?
That's a gross misrepresentation. Gemming is a form of mutilation. I have endured many hardships on my characters and came back from super low lows and those were great stories to tell. Playing a gemmed simply does not appeal to me and I'd rather spend my free time doing something enjoyable i.e. not playing a gemmed.
Quit OOCing in the middle of a scene is a bit extreme and unfair to the other players involved. As others have mentioned, story continuity is important. I would recommend requesting a fade or similar first to at least wrap up the scene so that the ultimate outcome can be understood. Then you can quit OOC.
Generally speaking pulling a Poochie isn't good form
https://youtu.be/J5k8ZQsZJpk
Quote from: Lotion on September 28, 2021, 01:33:12 PM
That's a gross misrepresentation. Gemming is a form of mutilation. I have endured many hardships on my characters and came back from super low lows and those were great stories to tell. Playing a gemmed simply does not appeal to me and I'd rather spend my free time doing something enjoyable i.e. not playing a gemmed.
I don't think their point was that you should let your character be gemmed, just that it's bad form to quit OOC in the middle of a scene and store.. rather you should play out and go for the 'be killed' option over being gemmed. OR.. if your character would rather not die.. take the gem and then store.
But also I think you were probably being hyperbolic and I don't think you would actually quit OOC in the middle of a scene. :p
The templar says, giving you the gem, "Put this on."
The scared gicker yells, tossing the gem towards %templar face, "What? No! no! No! This. No! I'm not. I cant. No. You will not Leash me! Never!"
The tempalr says, waving the half giant over, "Alright then."
The Half Giant Decapitates the scared gicker.
vs.
The templar says, giving you the gem, "Put this On."
The Scared Gicker says OOC, "I do not want to play a gemmed."
The Scared Gicker leaves Armageddon.
The templar blinkity blinks, uncertain how to proceed with the story.
The end result is the same. But former way of playing is staying in character and continuing the story and latter version is just big meh.
In other roleplaying environments it is sometimes standard practice to get out-of-character affirmative consent before doing anything bad at all to another player character or dramatically changing the circumstances of that player's narrative. I understand the appeal of that and have implemented aspects of this at times in my tabletop game sessions.
Armageddon is not those games. If your character is in an inescapable IC-situation that would lead to a grievous change in circumstances (dismemberment, Gemming, enslavement, etc) I understand how much that can suck as a player but a part of this game is embracing our failures as much as our successes.
Don't conflate being asked to resolve an IC situation in-character instead of unceremoniously mashing the quit OOC command with being forced to play a character you not longer wish to play.
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 13, 2021, 03:10:43 PM
In other roleplaying environments it is sometimes standard practice to get out-of-character affirmative consent before doing anything bad at all to another player character or dramatically changing the circumstances of that player's narrative. I understand the appeal of that and have implemented aspects of this at times in my tabletop game sessions.
Armageddon is not those games. If your character is in an inescapable IC-situation that would lead to a grievous change in circumstances (dismemberment, Gemming, enslavement, etc) I understand how much that can suck as a player but a part of this game is embracing our failures as much as our successes.
Don't conflate being asked to resolve an IC situation in-character instead of unceremoniously mashing the quit OOC command with being forced to play a character you not longer wish to play.
Enslavement is not really a thing for PCs anymore, though if a templar wanted to order a criminal to join the Byn for a year, that kind of indentured servitude would be fine. In the case of dismemberment, "consent to torture" is required with the option for the victim to choose death rather than dismemberment.
Quote from: Hestia on October 14, 2021, 08:01:16 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 13, 2021, 03:10:43 PM
In other roleplaying environments it is sometimes standard practice to get out-of-character affirmative consent before doing anything bad at all to another player character or dramatically changing the circumstances of that player's narrative. I understand the appeal of that and have implemented aspects of this at times in my tabletop game sessions.
Armageddon is not those games. If your character is in an inescapable IC-situation that would lead to a grievous change in circumstances (dismemberment, Gemming, enslavement, etc) I understand how much that can suck as a player but a part of this game is embracing our failures as much as our successes.
Don't conflate being asked to resolve an IC situation in-character instead of unceremoniously mashing the quit OOC command with being forced to play a character you not longer wish to play.
Enslavement is not really a thing for PCs anymore, though if a templar wanted to order a criminal to join the Byn for a year, that kind of indentured servitude would be fine. In the case of dismemberment, "consent to torture" is required with the option for the victim to choose death rather than dismemberment.
Could a Templar not force someone into the military for a bit?
My first character ever got conscripted into AoD but I think the whole conscript thing got done away with.
One of my big regrets in the game. My second PC in the game. Maybe 3 hrs played. A templar walks in and looks at me. Tosses a militia dustcloak at me and promotes me to private. Tells me to report in next before they set out.
I couldnt log in the next day.
Three days later, the entire AoD clan and the templar are dead. I. 'The' only AoD in Allanak and I have the power to arrest. On my second character in the game, with less then 10 hours played. Closest to survivor guilt that Ive ever came across.
Quote from: Hestia on October 14, 2021, 08:01:16 AM
Enslavement is not really a thing for PCs anymore, though if a templar wanted to order a criminal to join the Byn for a year, that kind of indentured servitude would be fine. In the case of dismemberment, "consent to torture" is required with the option for the victim to choose death rather than dismemberment.
So based on this comment, does this mean gemmed are NOT slaves and should be treated as such?
Quote from: Krath on October 14, 2021, 04:42:39 PM
Quote from: Hestia on October 14, 2021, 08:01:16 AM
Enslavement is not really a thing for PCs anymore, though if a templar wanted to order a criminal to join the Byn for a year, that kind of indentured servitude would be fine. In the case of dismemberment, "consent to torture" is required with the option for the victim to choose death rather than dismemberment.
So based on this comment, does this mean gemmed are NOT slaves and should be treated as such?
Slave is generally a legal status that has tangible effects.
Can't own property, have money, can be legally sold by a master
Gemmed don't really have any of this going on. Anything a Templar tells a gemmed is something they could presumably tell someone of the same status that's ungemmed.
It's just there's no point in forcing Tribal who-the-fuck-ever to go scout an area out for you because he'll die, the wind mage will live.
I've never thought they were 'slaves'.
Let's get real with gemmed.
Don't get caught. Gicks are meant to be hard to play. They are meant to be a role that is lonely and frustrating and in the North, killed. You got caught, you get gemmed. Don't like it, don't get caught. It is very difficult to play a gick in the city as a city folk, but I know a lot of Bynners and such who manifest after years of hiding it. Kudos to all of you. But, you should know the risk.
Anywhere else in the world, gicks are killed. Most tribals do not like them. The North certainly doesn't like them. The only place a magicker can openly be themselves is Allanak. They have a place to stay, an opportunity for an apartment, and /some/ protection.
However, never have I seen a gemmed treated like a slave per say. If anything, in the years I've been playing, I've seen some uppity gemmed. Like they think they have a social status or protection. That irks me.
This is all personal opinion and I could totally be overlooking PCs I never met!
I guess if anything, I'd like to see gemmed offered more mundane jobs that aren't all adventure focused. Especially for those that aren't wilderness or fighting classes. OR human.
I don't think there is a question or concern about it being hard for gemmed. It should be hard the 3rd hardest rol, behind sorc and psi. The question is, I'm looking at you staff, Are gemmed to be considered slaves of allanak via RP, or dangerous collared citizens?
Quote from: Hestia on October 14, 2021, 08:01:16 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 13, 2021, 03:10:43 PM
In other roleplaying environments it is sometimes standard practice to get out-of-character affirmative consent before doing anything bad at all to another player character or dramatically changing the circumstances of that player's narrative. I understand the appeal of that and have implemented aspects of this at times in my tabletop game sessions.
Armageddon is not those games. If your character is in an inescapable IC-situation that would lead to a grievous change in circumstances (dismemberment, Gemming, enslavement, etc) I understand how much that can suck as a player but a part of this game is embracing our failures as much as our successes.
Don't conflate being asked to resolve an IC situation in-character instead of unceremoniously mashing the quit OOC command with being forced to play a character you not longer wish to play.
Enslavement is not really a thing for PCs anymore, though if a templar wanted to order a criminal to join the Byn for a year, that kind of indentured servitude would be fine. In the case of dismemberment, "consent to torture" is required with the option for the victim to choose death rather than dismemberment.
Thank you for the clarity, it's been a few years since I've had a character going. My recollection from discussing a concept w/ the staff team for a PC that tried to round up other PCs to toss into arena fights was that PC enslavement technically happens sometimes but always results in storage for a variety of (valid) reasons.
And yeah, folks, please check for OOC torture/graphic scene consent before getting into a scene like that. Having spent a few years doing a lot of RP in more controlled environments, I've both come to appreciate the ways Arm lets your character assert their preferred outcome on the narrative in spite of other characters (murder, betrayal, corruption etc), and to recognize more the ways in which that can be less than fun for folks on the receiving end.
Quote from: Krath on October 14, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
I don't think there is a question or concern about it being hard for gemmed. It should be hard the 3rd hardest rol, behind sorc and psi. The question is, I'm looking at you staff, Are gemmed to be considered slaves of allanak via RP, or dangerous collared citizens?
I saw it as collared tools. Like everyone knows that gemmed are tools I thought. But not for common citizens? Like workcrews and up?
Quote from: Gentleboy on October 14, 2021, 09:22:49 PM
Quote from: Krath on October 14, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
I don't think there is a question or concern about it being hard for gemmed. It should be hard the 3rd hardest rol, behind sorc and psi. The question is, I'm looking at you staff, Are gemmed to be considered slaves of allanak via RP, or dangerous collared citizens?
I saw it as collared tools. Like everyone knows that gemmed are tools I thought. But not for common citizens? Like workcrews and up?
Maybe out of character, but per the documentation, what your character likely knows about the Gemmed is that they're only moderately less likely to make your extremities shrivel up and fall off by looking at you funny, that the blood of a Whiran cures scrub cough, and that fire mages will kidnap misbehaving children and turn them into big ants.
Gemmed are not slaves. I had a character who was gemmed and enslaved, and the Oash Lord who owned my PC was told to go back on the slave bit or I'd be stored.
A gemmed slave is a horrible idea. The owner is responsible for everything you do. Oh, did my slave just burn down half the city quarter? Ummmh ... oops?
A templar can call Gemmed a 'tool'. A noble might do that. To everyone else, they are the gemmed. Their own type of caste. One can be a gemmed and 'not' a citizen. But they do become immediately subservient to the Templarate. Due to the simple fact that they can die at any moment by a mere whim of any templar, regardless of where they are.
Without going into IC detail, I can tell you that as of two IC years ago, the perspective from many in IC authority was that all Gemmed "belong" to the Templarate (and previous to that as well; it was NOT just a reflection of the moment, heading into the Big Bash). Reading Hestia's answer is actually quite encouraging, and I'm glad for this topic showing up here.
Quote from: Krath on October 14, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
I don't think there is a question or concern about it being hard for gemmed. It should be hard the 3rd hardest rol, behind sorc and psi. The question is, I'm looking at you staff, Are gemmed to be considered slaves of allanak via RP, or dangerous collared citizens?
Gemmed have never been considered "slaves" of Allanak, within the actual heirarchy of Allanak.
Your non-Allanaki tribal, or Northerner, or Luir's-based citizen might PERCEIVE it otherwise, and that's entirely up to you to RP how your character might perceive it. But for citizens of Allanak, it's pretty much a given that the gemmed are not slaves.
Quote from: Saiseiki on October 15, 2021, 02:17:02 PM
Without going into IC detail, I can tell you that as of two IC years ago, the perspective from many in IC authority was that all Gemmed "belong" to the Templarate (and previous to that as well; it was NOT just a reflection of the moment, heading into the Big Bash).
They're sometimes certainly still treated that way....,
Quote from: Iiyola on October 15, 2021, 05:14:47 PM
Quote from: Saiseiki on October 15, 2021, 02:17:02 PM
Without going into IC detail, I can tell you that as of two IC years ago, the perspective from many in IC authority was that all Gemmed "belong" to the Templarate (and previous to that as well; it was NOT just a reflection of the moment, heading into the Big Bash).
They're sometimes certainly still treated that way....,
By whom?
How would you treat a gemmed as a slave? Could you come up with an example?
The Templarate and the Nobility playing tug of war over resources (gemmed) makes sense and is thematic. Being a resource doesn't mean that you're viewed as or treated as a slave. Keep in mind, you're not innately valuable just because you're a resource. Value is tied to what you can do for the people who decide on things like value. You're a disposable tool at the service of the Greater Good (i.e. the continuing function of Allanak as a city-state). How others view the gemmed, in or outside the city, is up for interpretation. How gemmed view themselves is up for interpretation. Functionally, however, both IC and OOC, they are not slaves.
Calling gemmed magickers "slaves" should get people scoffed at by most (and arguably, especially, those who were once slaves, themselves). Slaves are broken to and utterly reliant on their master's will. Gemmed are still citizens, however marginalized, with freedoms slaves are denied. Conflating forced citizenship with slavery would be almost laughable to most. Yes, you serve the Highlord, or else, but you still carry money and decide between options on what do to with your day or your life.
Yes, the gemmed are more concretely bound to their citizenship and service of Allanak than any mundane person, but they're not slaves. Calling them slaves may seem a valid tactic on the surface, but if you dig deeper, it seems to rely on modern notions that freedom is good and slavery is bad (which it is, it's horrible, but IN THIS SETTING, it is not widely viewed as such). It seems to be designed to invoke a sympathetic reaction. In a rogue witch, it might, but to mundanes, it arguably should not. Gemmed are magickers. They're monsters. And now Allanak has them as a resource at its disposal. Yes, there are similarities that can be drawn, as the gem is worn in the same location as a collar, and they're ultimately subservient to Allanak whether they want it or not, but it's not remotely a direct 1:1 comparison to being an actual slave.
Gemmed get to live in a city. They get to carry money. They get a community of others like themselves. They get to carve out a life, however marginalized. They have opportunities to work for the rich and powerful, or to remain within their Quarter and live a simpler, quieter life. Being gemmed offers the freedom of being a mage and participating in Allanaki society without having to constantly hide who you are and fear discovery and execution. Of course, the drawback is that everyone knows you're a mage, and so you're treated like one.
That is NOT slavery, that is a marginalized population. Allanaki would revolt if gemmed were treated like regular citizens. Magick is powerful, and most mundanes resent or fear that. Now how would they react if they were treated as equals and not as the boogeymen they're made out to be?
As to the benefits of freedom over slavery, in a world like Zalanthas, let's take a hard look at what the lives of most ex-slaves look like: full of hardship, constant danger, and frequent poverty. It's valid that some prefer that ("freedom or death!") but it's far from the accepted norm. Most people, when presented with a choice between living or dying, would chose life, every time. A gemmed may be a gemmed, but at least they're alive.
Edit, somewhat of a derail, but it seems to crop up a good bit:
I feel like a lot of the time, staff & player focus on black & white views, and forget that the strength of storytelling in Armageddon is found in the shades of grey. Nuance, duality, and conflict are what breathe life into any story. You need the core concept for those three things to be work, though. The core concept is, presently, that magick is feared, due to the power it represents. That doesn't mean that everyone has to respond in a cookie cutter way, or that if they color outside the lines, it's automatically bad. It means that they're coloring outside the lines: so why are they doing that? What's motivating them? This doesn't make them by default a bad roleplayer, it means they're deviating from the norm. They should suffer the consequences of doing so. It is on the rest of the gameworld to respond appropriately to those people, so the narrative isn't broken. That is where, I think, we most often fail. I suspect one of the main reasons for failure to respond appropriately to magick is that not only is it the ultimate trump card in many cases, but currently, it's everywhere. The number of secret and rogue magickers vs mundanes can border on ridiculous.
The issue Delirium, Is current play. Let us look at the first part of the help file for gemmed.
QuoteAllanak's Elementalist Quarter is home to the gemmed: elementalists who bear a dull black gem fastened around their throats. These elementalists are said to be bound to the Highlord’s will through these devices and by extension the Templars of His city. This binding is proclaimed to render them "safe" or tolerable and by the letter of the Highlord’s law they are permitted to live and operate in the city like any other free citizen.
Key point being in red. There are other help files which validate that along with history's I believe.
Now, around 15 years ago and beyond. The case was that a mage would come to a templar and ask for a gem (still happens) And if they were caught INSIDE the city or one of the farming villages they were usually given the option to get a gem to live or work or trade inside allanak or pay a fine and be kicked out. With a warning that next time would be gem or die. Or possibly a bigger fine...depended on the templar of course.
THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN PLAY any more. Now templars actively hunt mages outside the city if possible to gem them and the only option is gem or die, inside or outside the city. This, by definition is a form of enslavement. I have heard MANY templars in the last 15 years, both player and staff run say "rogue mages, even outside the city must be gemmed or killed." Even if they never enter or bother anybody from Allanak.
Docs and history might say Not a slave, Actual play does not back that up.
Hell, even in that section it says "bound to the highlord and by extension, templars." If this is forced with no choice but to die, that is slavery...especially when they hunt them just to do so.
It is amusing that people only "know" Of one style of slavery. But Most slaves in history actually were of the "slave class" Where even entire countries could be enslaved (happens even now). In which case the slaves were "slaves of the state". (which gemmed indeed are) Like the Helots, Though perhaps the spartans treated the Helots both better and worse then gemmed. The Helots mostly had to fend for themselves, But could be killed by the ruling class at any time for any reason. But Hey, least the Helots could actually earn enough money to buy freedom...Something a gemmed cannot do.
Pish posh, gemmed aren't slaves.
Slaves get free room and board.
Quote from: Narf on October 16, 2021, 12:54:52 AM
Pish posh, gemmed aren't slaves.
Slaves get free room and board.
You are right, the gemmed are worse than slaves. They aren't even provided for.
Quote from: Hauwke on October 16, 2021, 12:55:29 AM
Quote from: Narf on October 16, 2021, 12:54:52 AM
Pish posh, gemmed aren't slaves.
Slaves get free room and board.
You are right, the gemmed are worse than slaves. They aren't even provided for.
They are provided for, in theory, if they join House Oash or House Jal, or serve a Templar directly.
It is definitely possible to languish as a gemmed. Like Delirium said, not all gemmed are necessarily useful, and you will languish if you are not. I played a gemmed who so languished, unchosen by a House or a Templar. She was a low born breed with a foul personality. One day in a fit of jealous, Krathi rage she killed a gemmed who
was a Templar's aide. This aide that she killed did a lot of work, and the Templar he assisted just sort of faded away soon after that. It felt like I indirectly PKed the Templar in a sense. I am not PK happy, and while I play concepts capable, I rarely do it. Killing this gemmed aide was one of only two PKs I've had in about eighty characters I've played.
This is not the plot I am proudest of, but one that I believe naturally arose from the circumstances at hand. If you feel like a slave without room and board, stop acting so listless and
do something.
Quote from: X-D on October 15, 2021, 11:47:52 PM
if they were caught INSIDE the city or one of the farming villages they were usually given the option to get a gem to live or work or trade inside allanak or pay a fine and be kicked out. With a warning that next time would be gem or die. Or possibly a bigger fine...depended on the templar of course.
THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN PLAY any more. Now templars actively hunt mages outside the city if possible to gem them and the only option is gem or die, inside or outside the city.
I have never in my 20 years playing this game ever known a magicker to be revealed in Allanak (or its villages) and not either killed, hunted down, or gemmed. I say this having played a magicker who got caught and wasn't even given the option of wearing a gem (but they were right to kill me, because I was working for a Big Bad).
Actively hunting them outside the city, that depends on the situation. Going too hard after rogues who were otherwise lying low, blending in, and not making any moves against Allanak, yeah, that would be questionable, but the role of a rogue is supposed to be one of being hunted and hated, with a few exceptions that are probably too IC to get into but are, again, situational, and depend on who you have backing you and how blatant you are.
If you're able to make yourself more useful left alive while being troublesome to kill, then who knows?
Quote from: Narf on October 16, 2021, 12:54:52 AM
Pish posh, gemmed aren't slaves.
Slaves get free room and board.
You're right. Slaves do get room and board. You know who else doesn't? The rest of Allanak's common citizens. In fact, gemmed at least get a Temple to stay at, even if it's so that they don't bother others with their mere existence, and not due to charity's sake. It's almost like, in a horrible world like Zalanthas, having a guaranteed roof over your head is a thing worth wanting. If I recall correctly, there was a plot during one famine where common people sold themselves or their children into slavery for a chance at survival. That was brutal, but seemed extremely thematic.
I've played ungemmed mages in Allanak that lived their whole PC lives without a gem - I just didn't flaunt the magick.
QuoteI have never in my 20 years playing this game ever known a magicker to be revealed in Allanak (or its villages) and not either killed, hunted down, or gemmed.
I have, and less then 20 years ago, although not by much. And I have a few more years then you.
By 18 years ago it was becoming far less common and by 15-16 years ago...Only Submit or die. You submit to this collar you can never remove, you work for us whenever we tell you to, there is no escape anywhere in the world...and have to live in a segregated section of the city....Or...Die, The very definition of enslavement. And the best kind (or lowest, depending on which side of the gem you are on) because you do not have to care for them at all.
I am not quite sure why the "allowed to live in the great city of allanak EVEN though you are a mage" Along with the idea that this is a good thing, changed to "allowed to live".
And let me be clear. I do not so much have an issue with the gem system itself. I have an issue with the way it has been played out, and that is the reason many players/PCs consider it enslavement.
If it was common practice for a templar to ignore a mage on the salt flats not bothering anybody...(Laughable today) And if they caught a mage that was not actively casting in the street or walking around with some noticable spell on...and it was Take gem, Or we strip you, leave you a knife and waterskin and kick you out the gates...Or pay a fine and kicked out. And if you come back again it better be to ask for the gem or you die. AND to not care about harmless mages outside the city.
I would have no issues at all.
But that is not the case.
A gemmed working for Jal or particularly Oash has another layer of complexity to protect them from the unwanted attentions of the Templarate.
However, any citizen of Allanak is open to being conscripted on a short, long or permanent basis by the templarate and the only defense is utility.
X-D is 100% correct about the active hunting and enslavement of gemmed. The semantics at play here are amusing to see but unfortunately the threat of death or wearing a permanent marking and collar to signify the literal ownership of a person's free will by another defines slavery. Gemmed are a form of slave. Not a complete slave but when it matters most a gemmed is ordered to their death. A soldier who had no choice to join an army and had no choice to go to war and die in it is a slave by any definition.
According to the culture of some in Zalanthas a gemmed is not a slave but that is obviously a cultural cover for the rationalization of their slavery.
Also incorrect to assert that an Oashi gemmed won't be given the same treatment. the PC i saw these situations with observed a gemmed Oashi being sent on a scouting mission in X location. That PC returned barely alive, missing an arm which was torn off by XXX within that location. Without having any choice in the matter, the same Oashi gemmed PC was later sent again to scout the same area again. Never returned. This was also an Oashi Drovian. Obviously a very valuable commodity. Obviously being sent without any say into their death. Also bound by a "life oath" which violating meant their death. Many layers of doublespeak and false labels that are IC constructs but the OOC, objective truth is that this person was a slave, even if Oashi. So a lot of the assertions being made that they aren't slaves just don't feel accurate, at all.
The RP we do doesn't always reflect it. Most people simply don't care at all about the plight of witches and therefore there is no public recognition of them as slaves. Those who know the most about it would beg to differ.
Some Templars are honest and refer to the gemmed as a kind of slave.
These are true things. Don't let the cultural semantics and doublespeak of Zalanthas upset the objective reality. Don't become so controlling of player RP that we do GDB shaming of RP styles. Since respected players will sometimes refer to gemmed as slaves then some other players are 100% allowed to RP as they like. Hestia is correct in that point that maybe it tends to be tribals or whatnot who tend to see it as slavery.
However if looking at it from a literal perspective a slave could obviously use money in some cultures but still be ordered to their death. Therefore a slave is a slave.
Quote from: Tuannon on October 16, 2021, 09:19:33 AM
However, any citizen of Allanak is open to being conscripted on a short, long or permanent basis by the templarate and the only defense is utility.
A bit of an inflated statement. As a long term player I have several examples of gemmed being sent to die on suicidal missions, either alone or in groups. Have never seen a random citizen treated so even once even if such conscription is possible. From the sheer numbers of dead gemmed I know of versus the complete absence of non gemmed examples I would say this statement is disingenuous. Exception: soldiers or recruits who volunteered to be such will be sent to their deaths, yes. But no efforts to actively coerce or hunt or force anyone to become a soldier in Nak,and no Draft for example any time in Nak's history(recent history, i.e. last 100 or so IC years). This is more in line with a definition of a free citizen. Any conscription of a mundane commoner I've seen was clearly a reaction to something i.e. a punishment or a way to hurt another's position n the city, but that doesn't make commoners just another form of slave also.
Finally, one last point. I don't mind all of these factors. I am perfectly ready to RP the role of a gemmed when I play characters that are gemmed. But I have also more than once been in a role where the gem wasn't a choice and the outcome therefore is a form of slavery. I still am happy as a player to RP it. The concerns I have about RP in Allanak are more about how unstimulating and stifling the RP environment is. The stifling nature of the RP is not necessarily due to the fact that gemmed are a form of slave in Zalanthas. In fact,
if there actually was more of a public recognition of gemmed as being the slaves they are, then my argument is that the gemmed would have more, not less RP opportunities. A commoner may, for example, feel more safe to interact with a gemmed if they were not seen as "free willed witches" and instead were seen as the collared slaves they are. Just as a commoner probably has no fear at all about ordering a slave around, actually recognizing Gemmed for what they are (under complete control of the Templarate) may enhance the interactivity and improve RP. Food for thought. Also, if it were up to me, I'd just let the players and player-driven culture decide the answer to this debate. It's pretty clear which side I'd choose.
Sorry to be that person, but we're dropping the S word a lot. I'm 4.8% black and IDK if it's slave or pirate genetics, but I am also part Irish and my great great great grandfather was an indentured servant (slave), so let me just say "a thing" about slavery.
When you are a slave you are...
- generally restricted to your owner's property unless you have permission to leave it
- have no choice in what job you do
- all of your earnings go to your owner
When you are a gemmed you can...
- Leave Allanak whenever you want.
- Pick which House/Templar you serve, or work for yourself.
- Keep your earnings.
I don't know how Gemmed were handled in the recent war, but at worst that sounds like conscription, not slavery.
If we are going to liberally throw around the term slave, I feel more disrespected, controlled, stolen from, and "like a slave" IRL in American capitalist society than I ever felt playing a gemmed. Shit, besides the one gemmed I mentioned, all of my gemmed get heaps more respect than I do, too.
Heck, maybe fixing the Allanak problem is opening slave roles again, so that people who can take the harshness can flex on people who can now politely stop whining, or at least stop liberally misusing words. Respect to the droves of slaves on earth today.
Quote from: triste on October 16, 2021, 01:21:34 PM
Sorry to be that person, but we're dropping the S word a lot. I'm 4.8% black and IDK if it's slave or pirate genetics, but I am also part Irish and my great great great grandfather was an indentured servant (slave), so let me just say "a thing" about slavery.
When you are a slave you are...
- generally restricted to your owner's property unless you have permission to leave it
- have no choice in what job you do
- all of your earnings go to your owner
When you are a gemmed you can...
- Leave Allanak whenever you want.
- Pick which House/Templar you serve, or work for yourself.
- Keep your earnings.
I don't know how Gemmed were handled in the recent war, but at worst that sounds like conscription, not slavery.
If we are going to liberally throw around the term slave, I feel more disrespected, controlled, stolen from, and "like a slave" IRL in American capitalist society than I ever felt playing a gemmed. Shit, besides the one gemmed I mentioned, all of my gemmed get heaps more respect than I do, too.
Just to nitpick and clarify to prevent that "yeah but" posts that might follow:
You can attempt to work for whichever houses are willing to hire the gemmed. Not all of them do (new players might not necessarily know this so it's important).
Other than that, I agree 100% with Triste, as I've already said:
The gemmed are NOT slaves. They're not like slaves, they're not almost slaves, they're not practically slaves.
Except that this game is a fantasy role playing game. Anyone who has issues roleplaying a world of open cruelty, racism and murder with the word slave can choose a less dark setting to play in if it is that upsetting to them.
Slavery was a frequently roleplayed about topic throughout this setting from its inception as a spinoff of D&D Dark Sun. Dealing with slavery through RP, rather than censoring its place in the game, would be more conducive to more interaction and intrigue than it being a sort of unmentioned topic. If I choose to RP the reality in my role that should be just as allowed because if you don't like it you could now thankfully just choose not to role-play around it anyway. (Until it comes to you and forces itself on you, if you are magical, which happens and happened.)
Quote from: triste on October 16, 2021, 01:21:34 PM
Sorry to be that person, but we're dropping the S word a lot. I'm 4.8% black and IDK if it's slave or pirate genetics, but I am also part Irish and my great great great grandfather was an indentured servant (slave), so let me just say "a thing" about slavery.
........... what?
There are more slaves then free people in Allanak. Being threatened to be enslaved is completely in-theme. I think it's best you don't play this game if you find the term or idea somehow offensive, for your own sake. Saying that discussion involving a very major concept in ArmageddonMUD shouldn't be talked about or 'liberally thrown about' is pretty self-centered.
Though, I do agree with your listings -- gemmed aren't slaves, but they are bound to the city's templars and nobles. And if you don't accept their call to arms, you will get killed or worse.
Folks should chill before they get the thread locked.
Gemmed mages are not slaves and distinctly possess considerably more rights than slaves. Gemmed mages are oppressed and marginalized and forced to do things against their will by the nation-state with a monopoly on cataclysm-level violence but they are not property nor are they bought and sold as such.
Players including Templars and Nobles who play counter to the documentation on this are not an example to follow and regardless of how persistent people are in willfully disregarding documentation around magickers in Allanak, it remains the case that they're citizens.
Agreed on chilling. And I was never offended despite the trite accusation that I was offended. Generally I am interested in one thing. Facts. Semantics that, whether you like it or not, are important. Staff agreed with me and the semantics here are settled. Now, let's move past semantics.
The one thing Tranquil, Fenneko, Delirium, me, perhaps our moms, all agree on is that this game is harsh as it should be. So is the argument here that playing a gemmed is "so harsh it is unfun and unplayable?" Well I don't agree there. Objectively playing a gemmed is easier than playing a rogue witch in a lot of ways. What is the problem you all are trying to solve, and what solution do you want? Do you want to make things even more of a cake walk than it is? Do you not like that the government in Allanak is rather authoritarian? I am not sure what people want to change here, I just hear people describing with various degrees of dismay what it's like to RP a gemmed.
One last retort, because it is simply a rewording of an earlier point.
If a character is told, by multiple other players, of multiple stations and levels of power, that they are property, in an IC context. Then they are property, to the IC mind of that character.
Yes, there is another sect of players that seem to want to enact a reality that someone with a gem isn't a slave at all, and is free willed and money holding and unbound and, etc, etc, but the impressions left on multiple roles I've seen and played as over my career here from above situations may be lasting, and if I want them to be lasting, I have the right to roleplay that as reacting to the game environment in character. (Me reacting to the environment with a mindset strongly centered in my character persistently, even if it was to my own detriment, has been one reason staff in the past said I got some karma in the past).
The debate here has been interesting, but as someone who has played here through multiple generations of staff and active, leading players (whose opinions I also respect equally -- the staff and playerbase are the same group of people, just changing roles over time, let's be honest about that also), and I have and always will kind of stick to my own opinions about the topics I've been active in here, even as I've seen the majority, vocal opinion on this issue change over time.
The most exciting and vibrant times as an Allanaki I remember RPing were in those eras when characters in power were more honest with the brutality that is Allanak. This is one form in which that brutality took place. I have tried to give kudos to, say, Templars who executed my characters if I felt they were adding to the environment. The objective aftermath of what their actions did, which accurately portrayed the status as a form of slave of the gemmed, was that the activity and intrigue and action and interaction all greatly enhanced throughout the city when it occurred. I'll continue to remember those feelings and for my part, for what I contribute to this game as a player, I will continue to RP the setting, to the best of my ability, and to the theme that I believe it tries to have with the heavy restrictions and risks it imposes in a permanent death setting. That's why I'm still here.
The time periods in Allanak when things were actually objectively roughest for the gemmed, say from the presence of multiple Templars actively oppressing them and treating them as the kind of slaves that they are, were the exact time periods when I felt being a gemmed was most rewarding, as it kept me extremely interested in each turn of my character's story.
adding: a more similar real world comparison for the gemmed state is not slavery, but more like the immediate pre-holocaust period for the Jews in nazi germany. They were forced to wear insignia to say who they are, forced to live in a certain part of town only, and in one misstep were killed. They had financial "freedom" but had multiple barriers to actual accomplishment, and they were afraid at all times of consequences of failure. The star was as good as a collar. They felt enslaved to the state, and in the end, massive numbers of them were put to their ultimate fate for no other reason than who they were born as.
Now, obviously I am not trying to get sympathy. I am just drawing obvious comparisons to the identical equivalent of all of the above to gemmed. It isn't slavery, but in the emotional state of the victim, such a word kind of applies too.
If a character is told by multiple other players regardless of station or level of power that they are property in an IC context it remains the case that they are not in fact property and if you witness other players attempting to circumvent documentation and rules around enslavement of PCs you should let staff know.
(I think the only time any of my characters got called property it was by her girlfriend and it was very consenting and lovely at the time, before shit hit the fan. They were both half elves, half elves can be weird.)
I'll duck out of this debate but I want to say [1] I respect all of your opinions [2] not all roles are for everyone [3] I loved the last gemmed I played so if you change anything about the role plz warn me before changing it.
Keep in mind, I already said gemmed has a place and I have played many and enjoyed most.
That being said. Almost everybody, From Hestia on down are wrong about slavery and at BEST are cherry picking the things they think it takes to define a slave or slavery. And even more amusing when Triste actually mentions "indentured servant" Then proceeds to name the things it takes to be a slave which directly contradict reality. They (indentured servants) could move about freely, They could own property, They did have a choice on jobs mostly because they entered into the contract, and basically only the products of labor went to the owner of the indenture. If you only define slave by the definition you all learned (mostly wrong BTW) About american history and black slavery then you are only defining maybe 5% of historical slavery.
Really guys, do some research on the history of slavery in the world.
Key points though.
Did you enter into the contract willingly?
Can you end the contract at any time aside from death.
If you can say no to those two things...it IS SLAVERY.
Hell, mundane AND RL historical slaves can at least escape. Not a gemmed.
A gemmed mage is in a prison/contract whatever, that often they were forced into and can never escape from. Not really an issue cept that BOTH long term imprisonment and Slavery for PCs is not allowed. (aside from muls but even that is rare) Hell, I got in trouble as a Red fang for inking a WILLING PC as a slave, who have MORE rights and privileges then any gemmed. And why, Slavery is against the rules. Yet here we are with a caste that is far more restricted and it is inside the rules.
Even the dictionary definition contradicts you.
Quoteslave
slāv
noun
1:One who is owned as the property of someone else, especially in involuntary servitude (check) .
2:One who is subservient to or controlled by another.(check)
3:One who is subject to or controlled by a specified influence.(and Check)
Or, in much shorter form, You can call that turd a rose but it still smells like crap.
Wow. I just realized I've finally been playing long enough to say "I can't rebut/intelligently argue these points without going into current IC dynamics." Honestly kind of weird being on this end of that divide.
Huh. What can I comment on, that's both helpful and hasn't been said already? Not much. I guess "your mileage will (not may) vary". At whatever time I'm able to circle back 'round to this I might.
To get away from the precise topic a little bit: if multiple characters in authority over multiple years IRL all arrive at a consensus on how thus-and-such is to be played, and if the staff either tacitly support or at least do not directly countermand that consensus, I would argue this constitutes a lasting shift in either IC or OOC culture, or both. The proof is really in the pudding when you get to see what happens after most or all of those characters are dead/retired: does the IC consensus that was arrived at stick? Do the remnants of the "old guard" and the new wave continue to abide by what was established before, or does something new come about? From a sociological perspective, this can be fascinating. From the perspective of someone putting their creative blood into the game (both player- and staff-side, I would imagine), and sinking an obscene amount of time into a "hobby", the answers can be wonderful or horrid or anywhere in-between.
Quote from: Saiseiki on October 16, 2021, 03:41:02 PM
if multiple characters in authority over multiple years IRL all arrive at a consensus on how thus-and-such is to be played, and if the staff either tacitly support or at least do not directly countermand that consensus, I would argue this constitutes a lasting shift in either IC or OOC culture, or both.
(Emphasis own)
Please, please can someone just address what "shift" we want here. I am an action oriented person and I can't stomach endless complaining without anything actionable, it is literally pointless.
I will concede that gemmed are "slave like" as much as people with H-1B visas are slaves (they decided to enter a country/citystate where they are only allowed to stay if they are employed for their skills). These "slaves" or H-1B visa holders have a crappy life. Agreed!
So what is your solution already??? Free the slaves and destroy old themes in our harsh game? Give the visa holders full citizenship? Tear our gaming community apart with a controversial debate?
Until someone clearly articulates a problem, or even better a solution, seems like "tear apart the community" is the agenda.
Sorry I know I said I was done posting but five posts back or so I asked for a clear formulation of the problem or change we want and no one has delivered.We can also drop this debate and address it in game, novel idea!
Quote from: triste on October 16, 2021, 04:26:49 PM
Stuff
Triste, this is a general DISCUSSION board. The point of it is to discuss things openly. While you may be action oriented, others are not, and it is important to be respectful of that and not try to shut down conversations because of the way you like things being done.
As to your question about a solution, before we can get to the solution space of any problem we need to know where we current are. That question can only be answered by staff and it isn't a simple yes or no gemmed are slaves answer. There are many levels that need to be answered depending on the high level answer of Yes or No they are not slaves.
My thought is they are slaves...Templar (slavemaster) tells a gemmed (slave) do X. Gemmed, being free says no. Templar slaps gemmed resulting in HP and Stun damage...Aka slavemaster whips slave until slave says yes.
Edited to add: Not all templars/slavemasters act in this way, but they have the power to, which in itself is counter to staff saying there are not allowed to be PC slaves in the game.
I'm confused.
Gemmed can't take off their Gem.
Templar's have ultimate power and authority over Gemmed.
How are they not slaves? They can't just flee if they don't like the social contract they didnt sign up for. They can serve or die.
This seems like another peeking through the fingers situation ALA Religion in Zalanthas. People can anecdotally say all day "Gemmed are not slaves because X Y Z" but they absolutely are treated AS slaves are treated. They have no implicit freedom beyond what is granted to them by Templars. The Actual Plat of Gemmed is as close as you can get to playing a slave role without playing a slave role. Why argue that they aren't? Is it mainly because a PC once enslaved is supposed to be stored? Is it purely semantics?
I have never seen Gemmed treated as anything more than property on loan from the Templarate.
Okie doke. Let's have maybe five more posts of people shouting down other players and contradicting staff, saying "being gemmed is the same as being a slave," if I don't see anything resembling a "solution" to this "problem" I am going to assume what you're all suggesting is something rediculous like "cancel the whole game because it has themes that scare me."
Discussion is one thing, but what's going on here is... IDK.
I would also like to point out that We are talking of definition NOT semantics. Most of you that use that second word do not seem to know what it means anyway.
I did the hard work for you all.
QuoteDefinition of semantics
1 : the study of meanings:
a : the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development
b(1) : semiotics
(2) : a branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth
The study of word meanings, There is no argument of the meaning of the "word" slave. Only what a "slave" is.
So, let us move on to Define.
QuoteEssential Meaning of define
1 : to explain the meaning of (a word, phrase, etc.) How would you define (the word) "grotesque"? a term that is difficult to define
2 : to show or describe (someone or something) clearly and completely The government study seeks to define urban poverty. Her book aims to define acceptable social behavior. See More Examples
3 : to show the shape, outline, or edge of (something) very clearly That fence defines the far edge of the property.
Alright so...how is "slave" defined?
Quoteslave
slāv
noun
1:One who is owned as the property of someone else, especially in involuntary servitude (check) .
2:One who is subservient to or controlled by another.(check)
3:One who is subject to or controlled by a specified influence.(and Check)
I it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck If something has all the characteristics of a thing, it is probably that thing, regardless of what it is called or presented as.
And for the action people:
Easy fix, Yes, they are slaves and yes, certain types of slavery to PC is allowed. Simple rule change.
Harder fix, Change the function of the gem and how templars treat ungemmed specially and gemmed to a lesser extent.
As to contradicting staff, when they are trying to argue that this thing with fins and scales in the water is an elephant, while I can see it plainly is a fish then well.....
Quote from: Veselka on October 16, 2021, 05:16:45 PM
Templar's have ultimate power and authority over Gemmed.
Anyone who doesn't have a signet ring made of metal, really. At a supremely dumbed down level anyway.
As much as I'd like another round of nonsense, I'm done with it though.
Thankfully, because a magicker is untouchable, in that they are feared for their power or possible leakage of such power into unintentional or intentional curses, makes that gemmed role much more convenient to RP a form of slavery without any concerns about the ickiness of being a slave, which is yes, the ickiness of non-consensual erotic RP and so on. That is why I understand it that this game doesn't really support playing as mundane slaves.
Mundane slaves are not really a role I want to RP anymore. I think I used to be interested in them, but then I realized that thanks to human nature, a slave is more likely than not to be used or seen at least partly or spoken about as a pleasure slave at some point or another. I understand that this is a natural thing, and much like prostitution is not necessarily looked down on in Zalanthas, in our RP of this virtual part of the game world, we don't get to play a slave role where consent would become more dubious and the power dynamic is truly absolute.
Rather, an untouchable slave is an easier role to play, and thankfully because this is a fantasy game, the reason for the untouchability isn't a concept that has a direct tie to the real world (thank goodness), so that it isn't based on skin color or what 1% of your genetics make you look like. The slavery here is based on a supernatural phenomenon, which isn't even tied to the actual nature of the person; as the documentation says, mages are not defined by their magick. It is a curse to them, an involuntary condition.
The similarities end in that, in the conceptual core of what being a gemmed is, and thankfully, very little else about the role is similar to actual, RL slavery, which sadly, in this fucked up Earth, is worsening (in terms of the absolute numbers of actual slaves in the world, it's going up; not going up per capita (i hope) but going up in total number of victims of human trafficking now). This is why I don't really want a change either, just a recognition that this one theme of Allanak is very important, but that the de-emphasizing, or the double-speaking or the redefining it as something besides slavery is just something that is an IC construct to justify what is definitely slavery at its core, and we get to enjoy the simulation, and learn from it, and see the parallels in our own lives, hopefully without inciting as much trauma.
I'm just trying to re-iterate a lot of reasons I've seen the treatment of gemmed justified, from an IC standpoint it is what has been already said, but from a standpoint of game design, it is a mechanism to explore this type of existence without it being too triggering.
Quote from: Tuannon on October 16, 2021, 05:47:05 PM
Quote from: Veselka on October 16, 2021, 05:16:45 PM
Templar's have ultimate power and authority over Gemmed.
Anyone who doesn't have a signet ring made of metal, really. At a supremely dumbed down level anyway.
As much as I'd like another round of nonsense, I'm done with it though.
This is why my H-1B comparison is more apt than slavery. Becoming a gemmed is literally the same as becoming any Allanki. If you don't like Nakki grittiness and authoritarianism, move your lilly livered butt to Luir's before you get gemmed. The only difference between gemmed and any citizen is maybe 1 or two coded functions of the gem, which leads me to...
Quote from: X-D on October 16, 2021, 05:46:50 PM
And for the action people:
Easy fix, Yes, they are slaves and yes, certain types of slavery to PC is allowed. Simple rule change.
Harder fix, Change the function of the gem and how templars treat ungemmed specially and gemmed to a lesser extent.
Oh thank gawd. You're like rain over the desert X-D.
I vote for the easy fix, because some of us are tough as hell (and maybe a little masochistic) and are fine with the role as is.
The most change I can tolerate here is maybe allowing Templar to only use certain functions of the gemmed if the gemmed is within Allanak. It's lame getting [redacted] across the known. [Redacted by Hestia]
Okay so we're done discussing slaves in Allanak, since slaves are not allowed for play, and therefore can't possibly be "The Allanak Problem."
Playing a gemmed is not "The Allanak Problem" since your gem can be seen no matter where your character is.
Gemmed being slaves is not "The Allanak Problem" since gemmed can come and go without asking anyone's permission, they can leave the city, do what they do, they can even be hired IF THEY WANT TO by a couple of clans. And - wonder of wonders - if they do play in one of those clans, and decide they don't want to be in one of those clans anymore, it's entirely possible they would be released from service, and not force-stored or executed.
So enough of that.
Get back to the topic of "The Allanak Problem," please. If you all feel everything that can be said has been said already, I can close the topic. But it's staying open for the time being, in case you have something new to add to the discussion.
That would actually be another Allanak problem, And game in general Hestia. When a bunch of players say this is a problem and then staff is like, No it is not....And that is an elephant.
Your Jedi mind tricks will not work on me.
Call it anything you want, Defining slave is not if they can work for somebody, Slave can do that, Not if they can travel, Slave can do that. It is a simple matter of who has the ultimate control AND if that is consensual and if the one being controled can end it.
For some gemmed they do go for the gem in order to live and work in allanak where family or whatever is, but they can never end it.
But go ahead, try and convince people it is an elephant, Meanwhile player numbers and player time in game keep going down and there is a thread on what the game needs, started by staff.
A gemmed CANNOT stop being gemmed, He wears a collar that marks him as such and tells everybody who sees who owns/controls him. Exactly as a slave brand/tattoo/iron slave collar. It is the exact same thing. I see the fish and will not claim I see an elephant.
AND that is to the point. Gemmed ARE allanak items, It does not matter that they can be seen anywhere. We are talking about the perception and treatment of gemmed INSIDE allanak, Where they are treated and perceived as slaves.
Quote from: X-D on October 16, 2021, 08:21:26 PM
That would actually be another Allanak problem, And game in general Hestia. When a bunch of players say this is a problem and then staff is like, No it is not....And that is an elephant.
This right here is part of the game problem. XD is right, trying to gaslight players who are telling you WHAT their problem with allanak is probably is part of the reason numbers are dropping.
Fact: if a gemmed declines a templars order ANYWHERE in the world they can be killed by said templar on the spot. Slavemaster tells slave to do work. Slave says no. Slavemaster whips slave until they do job or die.
To Triste's point: I wasn't being very clear; sorry about that. When I was writing about the phenomenon I've seen (and participated in) for the last two-ish RL years, it only tangentially related to the status of gemmed. I was really more considering how IC cultural shifts occur, at least PC-side.
THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM.
It is certainly not a problem to be "solved". Rather, something I wanted to get from my brain, out through my fingers, and before other sets of eyes. Many of whom have been playing this game for three or four times the amount I have been - the reason this is germane is that they've been around long enough to have witnessed/been involved with multiple cycles, as the discussion between X-D and Delirium illustrated.
To Hestia's point: The problem with Allanak... From my very limited perspective, it's as just about every other person initially answering has pointed out: silo-ing. I'll go a step farther than some, and say "silo-ing with damn good cause". The various factions and classes are NOT friendly, nor natural allies (When the time comes, I'm going to honestly enjoy writing up what is hopefully a deep dive on Noble/Templar relations.). Characters that have months or years of one's RL sunk into them can be obliterated in seconds with a single misstep. And so on, and so forth.
This is all directly in opposition to the reason why many of us play this game, and certainly those characters that stick around a potentially deadly city for months or years on-end - social RP. That can run the gamut from ERP to PvP to simple gossip-mongering and "Mean Girl"-level politicking. Hopefully, and this is what I try to encourage and seek out, we can get to the point where there's a chance for some serious, in-depth character studies. Or alternately, those moments where you ask yourself "Damn this scene is hard for me to play through - why is that?" That last question is actually what got me hooked on this game. It also happened again as recently as last week.
I'm not saying we need to "Care Bear" one another, but allowing some nod to the internal life of others, who are pouring just as much of themselves into their Armageddon personas as we are is a critical thing to keep in mind. Again, hardly original to point this out, yet I've noticed there are at least two basic and conflicting impulses in the game, often within the same particular scenario, and sometimes even within the same character in the same moment: to triumph, and to tell the story.
To triumph is exactly as it sounds: to kill a rival; to get the girl/guy over the other person; to make the coin so others can't. I've noticed it often gets reduced to "kill or be killed", but it's actually much broader than that. For example, there have been moments in heated, politically-charged debates with other characters that I've had a rejoinder pop into my, the player's, head. I'm all set to type it out as fast as I can, when I wonder "Is this what my character would actually say? Is s/he emotionally present/vicious/quick-witted/brave enough?"
That leads me to the second point - the impulse to tell the story. I almost said "to characterize", but again, this can be quite broad. Sometimes I'll belt out a rather detailed emote that has almost nothing to do with my character per se. It's really just dancing with this astonishing setting we share. Most of the time, though, this impulse comes through as wanting to explore the psyche and experience of either this person I've spent waaaaaay too much friggin' time inhabiting, or those around them. Why do they do what they do? What insights can this give me, as a character, or even as a person (and for those of you who played around Overseer Macian back in the day, you know what I mean - that player knew what was up!)? What's new and unexplored that I can discover about this persona?
Obviously these two impulses can be one-and-the-same, depending on the character. I'm specifically talking about when our need to triumph, as players, overrides our own personal storytelling. Have I been hypocritical in this? Certainly. Sometimes badly. I'm still going to keep trying to find the correct balance-point, though.
There have been moments in my Arm. journey where I'm crying at the keyboard. Sometimes it's poignant, sometimes hilarious, or something else entirely. Sometimes it's the raw cognitive dissonance from having to be something I'm very much not at all in RL; yeah, I'm cringing at some of the things my character says and does. That facet has sometimes been so potent I've wondered if I could keep playing them. None of this could happen without some modicum of trust in my fellow players, though.
* * *
Actionable part: this is a tough one. I mean, like really tough. I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm going to have some special insight into something that's clearly been debated for years, if not decades. There's the further issue that I just haven't had a broad enough career. I feel like I've got at least the next five years of characters planned out, and maybe more like ten! There's too damn much to do here, people!
I'm currently working on how to realistically and thematically interact with more than just one or two rigid strata of Allanaki society. I forget who it was, but someone did an excellent job of pointing out just how hierarchical the city is - not only that, but the penalties for violating social norms can be far, far worse than getting glared at from across the room, or even losing one's job. (Apologies to the newbies who felt I was jumping down their throats - I don't want to see y'all on the body pile!)
Looking back, the whole "cross-class rp" is something I've been pursing for a while, now. It's just the most glaring, consistent, and also difficult issue to sharing wonderful scenes with one another that I've encountered. Please do not read this as me complaining about Allanak's structure - a central theme of the game is, in my view, how power is used or misused. In Allanak, that tends to manifest with both fascist and paternalistic overtones, or else just overt fascism. It's part of the basic tapestry of the setting, and fortunately there are a multitude of other locations to go to for different experiences.
In summation, find reasons to reach out. Be willing to take some chances. And maybe hardest of all, stretch yourself as a roleplayer, even if you risk looking stupid. It can smart getting called on the carpet by the staff, but you gotta bump up against the boundaries to know them, and see where you can expand role-play opportunities for one another while still preserving the integrity of the setting.
Damn, I'm glad to have this game to play in. Even what it seriously ticks me off. :D <3
Regardless of where Webster and Oxford weigh in on defining the word slave, gemmed mages have been referred to as slaves (usually as a derogatory term) since practically forever. Calling a mage a slave directly to their face is probably ill-advised but when discussing them in general I've seen plenty of PCs use that term. I think whether they are or aren't technically slaves is irrelevant. What matters is that many see them as such, despite how ever many feathers that ruffles.
...So confused...
I see one Staffer, Hestia, stating something that is counter to my actual game experience for the last 20 years.
It's a bit phantasmagoric because I've never seen Gemmed referred to anything more than slaves or property of whatever Clan is employing them.
I agree that while this isn't "The Allanak Problem", it is a problem for Staff to state things that are counter-intuitive to the player base, and expect them to just...Acknowledge and move on? It just leads me to think we are and have been playing two different games.
I've never seen gemmed treated as slaves. Slaves are actually valued as commodity. People grew up amidst the slaves. Slaves are a bigger percentage of the city population.
You guys go "slaves have to follow orders" and "gemmed must do what templars tell them to, or die". Therefore gemmed are slaves. This is a fallacy in your logic.
Slaves are property. To roleplay a slave, you are not playing a role of, "if I don't do what I'm told, they'll kill me." That is not how slaves think in zalanthan setting. Most slaves are brought up from childhood. Their thinking is,"if I fail in my master's orders, i will be punished.". Slave is a social class. They are not oppressed, they are treated the way they are used to and find it acceptable to be treated.
Gemmed are an actual forced labour. They possess talents that templars find useful and the templars make the gemmed do their bidding because ... They can. But a templar can't sell a gemmed. Nor can a gemmed be purchased. Their labour is either forced, or paid for. Slaves, in zalanthan setting, aren't forced to work. They are told to work and are expected to obey because they are slaves. Slaves cannot own property. They can't have coin. Bank accounts, or choose their employment.
What's next? Maybe rinthies are also slaves? Because if guild is active and your character lives Westside. You are pretty much guaranteed to work for the guild in some fashion.
This thread began well. But lately I'm getting the feeling that you are trying to suck the 'problem' out of your own middle finger and enlarge it to proportions that make no sense.
What exactly are you suggesting? Are you asking the templars to stop harassing the mages?
Quote from: Dar on October 17, 2021, 04:32:33 AM
Slaves are property. To roleplay a slave, you are not playing a role of, "if I don't do what I'm told, they'll kill me." That is not how slaves think in zalanthan setting. Most slaves are brought up from childhood. Their thinking is,"if I fail in my master's orders, i will be punished.". Slave is a social class. They are not oppressed, they are treated the way they are used to and find it acceptable to be treated.
I'd like to point out that many slaves are treated fairly well, even. Obviously by our own personal standards it is still abysmal, but they are food and water secure so long as they perform. The expensive ones that have a skill in some kind of trade are valued commodities. They are trained and treated like it.
A carpenter slave in Allanak likely eats better than half of all commoners. A prized mul likely eats better than 90% of the city.
This isn't to say that all are in that good, i highly doubt it. But they are often better off than commoners because to be able to purchase a proper slave from Borsail you need a lot of coin, and they don't just sell to anyone or it would hurt their image as the best slave providers in the South.
I think a lot of what people think of as a common slave when they immediately jump to a mental image is actually an indentured servant, like a criminal sent off to the mines because he has a strong back, he gets treated poorly because his only good feature is he is strong, he knows what freedom is and wants it back.
All citizens of Allanak are slaves to the Highlord.
Seriously though. Almost all of the arguments here for gemmed being considered slaves could be applied to anyone in Allanak when a Templar is involved in the situation. You do what they say or else. Sure you can run away, but so can gemmed.. actually. Maybe not successfully, but they can sure as drov try - a Byn or AoD deserter can't easily run away either and will be hunted down. Gemmed do successfully slip away from Allanak from time to time, being 'caught' requires a Templar to actually care/remember that you're gone. It's just not an easy life. But nothing about playing a mage is supposed to be easy.
The social cost is the necessary price paid for the omfgcrazypower. And that cost is a requirement for balance. And as always, everyone else.. please be shitty to your local mage. If you think we have too many mages in game, it's because we're being too damn nice to them.
Quote from: Maso on October 17, 2021, 05:38:08 AM
All citizens of Allanak are slaves to the Highlord.
Seriously though. Almost all of the arguments here for gemmed being considered slaves could be applied to anyone in Allanak when a Templar is involved in the situation. You do what they say or else. Sure you can run away, but so can gemmed.. actually. Maybe not successfully, but they can sure as drov try - a Byn or AoD deserter can't easily run away either and will be hunted down. Gemmed do successfully slip away from Allanak from time to time, being 'caught' requires a Templar to actually care/remember that you're gone. It's just not an easy life. But nothing about playing a mage is supposed to be easy.
The social cost is the necessary price paid for the omfgcrazypower. And that cost is a requirement for balance. And as always, everyone else.. please be shitty to your local mage. If you think we have too many mages in game, it's because we're being too damn nice to them.
Omg, I was going to write this, but I couldn't put it into words. Maso!! So good.
Tuannon posted the exact sentiment yesterday (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,56084.msg1067791.html#msg1067791) fyi Gentleboy.
Staff have asked us to move on from this topic because it's not a problem we have here, it is the status quo according to the docs. Thanks to people who have experience, read docs, and posted. But the topic is done.
What it looks like to me is folks are asking how something should be depicted IC, being told by staff how something should be depicted IC, and then arguing that because what staff said doesn't reflect what they saw IC, it's the staff who must be wrong.
Every single non-templar (and probably some templars) in Allanak can be executed for disobeying an order from a templar. This is such a weird semantic argument. As far as I can tell, nobody is actually arguing in favor of any specific changes to Allanak or the Gemmed role. They're just arguing about the definition of slavery in a video game. Whatever real world parallels you want to try to apply (free advice: don't) should probably be left at the door because as both staff and documentation state, Gemmed are not slaves and in fact have considerably more rights than slaves. If you don't like that Templars can tell you what to do, probably don't play in Allanak. That's what Templars do.
Is part of the problem that the main city we promote as being "newbie friendly" is one of the most brutal cities in game?
Part of why I was all "rah rah open Tuluk," is it has always been more newbie friendly. I know my first long lived PC was a Tuluki. Maybe the problem we're discussing in this thread has been addressed by the reopening of Tuluk. When this thread started Tuluk was closed... so perhaps the issue is fixed now?
Armageddon is a brutal game and there are no character starts which will shelter your PC from potential brutality. Allanak is 'newbie friendly' by way of being safe from wildlife within the walls, density of active players and clans (including clans like the Byn, which are good places to learn the ropes) and access to income via salt or other jobs.
Tuluk is no less brutal - it's just brutal in different ways. A Tuluki Templar can also kill anyone who disobeys an order. This has been a pretty standard part of Armageddon for as long as I have played it.
Nobody is playing a Gemmer for the first PC (and most likely not their second or third, but you never know) so if the debate is about how to make Allanak more friendly to new players, Gemmed aren't really part of that discussion.
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 17, 2021, 03:50:02 PM
, Gemmed are not slaves and in fact have considerably more rights than slaves. If you don't like that Templars can tell you what to do, probably don't play in Allanak. That's what Templars do.
It's likely important not to call it 'rights'. Nobody has any rights in Allanak, unless protected by an organization, or person that's important to the templarate.
If you follow the rules and are somewhat respectable, you can do what you like in the shadows. Gemmed included. Slaves do not get any time to themselves or without needing to check in with someone.
So, there are rights in a way, I guess.
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 17, 2021, 04:14:18 PM
A Tuluki Templar can also kill anyone who disobeys an order. This has been a pretty standard part of Armageddon for as long as I have played it.
Hi. Like you, I came back to the game after a good hiatus - I last played in 2017. I just returned a bit earlier, in April, and have been playing since.
Templars are a hell of a lot killier than they were before. It isn't the same. The rights afforded to them sure are, and the degree to which they are exercised certainly are: people die about them in droves. They die because they get accused of stuff, they die because they work for the wrong people, and sometimes they just die for annoying them. I have the last one in writing after I angrily sent a complaint. Staff doesn't care, and considers this working as intended.
Given these things, I'm not too surprised Allanak is as empty as it seems to be by just glancing at its taverns, and that both RSV and Luir's were packed prior to Tuluk reopening. Most PCs aren't neck deep in whatever scant few plots the game has going on, and life is a lot more chill without the law breathing down your neck.
I don't want to comment on current characters nor do I have any experience with which to do so but it sounds like maybe if the issue is with trigger happy templars in general, that's a good focus for this discussion.
I would hope that folks playing high-power sponsored roles are always considering how their IC actions contribute to a more compelling story for all involved. I am a subscriber to the belief that if you play stupid games in Armageddon you should win stupid prizes, but there are a lot of ways to flex as a Templar that don't involve execution.
One of my short-lived but very enjoyable PCs got busted early in his career for burglary by Lyvrenxice Oash and instead of executing him or maiming him, she exiled him on the grounds that he might return if he acted as a short-term spy in Tuluk. Probably a bad move on the Templar's part because that PC went on to help burn down multiple buildings in Allanak and played a minor part in attempted insurrection. But the takeaway to me has always been that Lyvren's choice to let my PC's story continue helped create more interesting gameplay for all involved in the subsequent weeks/months.
Something to note: if you repeatedly run away without RP from people in power (be they raiders or Templars) they tend to not be super duper merciful if and when they catch up with you.
I agree that it behooves those in power (and with actual coded crime code power) to err on the side of caution. There are a ton more options for stories than straight up execution, be that threats, physical violence, mental violence, threats against their loved ones, and so on.
What makes sense in the context of the scene, of the people involved, of the crimes committed (or not committed)? It's a very subjective nuanced 'thing', and sometimes, it makes the most sense to execute someone. Other times, it makes sense to let them go with a warning, or with a physical reminder rather than death. It's different in Tuluk than it is in Allanak, too.
I think people jump to the conclusion that 'The Powers That Be' are always the problem, but I think it's a two way street. If your PC is being a dumb criminal and getting caught often, yeah, they're probably not going to make the cut (especially if they are a dingus and not playing ball). Whether it was on a Templar or Garrison Captain or whatever, it's surprising how stupid people can be when faced with mortal danger. I'm no stranger to getting angry PMs from people after I've killed them. I stand by the fact that it is a harsh setting, that if and when it makes sense for people in power to kill people (whether that means they are a defiler or a templar), if it makes IC sense, it makes IC sense. End of story. On to the next.
Should a Templar always let people off with a slap on the wrist? I am sure most people would agree that would be silly. Some people have to die. And there has to always be the mortal threat of death. That doesn't mean it's always the knee-jerk option, every time. But it is and should be ever present when dealing with a Templar.
Quote from: Veselka on October 17, 2021, 06:20:14 PM
Something to note: if you repeatedly run away without RP from people in power (be they raiders or Templars) they tend to not be super duper merciful if and when they catch up with you.
I agree that it behooves those in power (and with actual coded crime code power) to err on the side of caution. There are a ton more options for stories than straight up execution, be that threats, physical violence, mental violence, threats against their loved ones, and so on.
What makes sense in the context of the scene, of the people involved, of the crimes committed (or not committed)? It's a very subjective nuanced 'thing', and sometimes, it makes the most sense to execute someone. Other times, it makes sense to let them go with a warning, or with a physical reminder rather than death. It's different in Tuluk than it is in Allanak, too.
I think people jump to the conclusion that 'The Powers That Be' are always the problem, but I think it's a two way street. If your PC is being a dumb criminal and getting caught often, yeah, they're probably not going to make the cut (especially if they are a dingus and not playing ball). Whether it was on a Templar or Garrison Captain or whatever, it's surprising how stupid people can be when faced with mortal danger. I'm no stranger to getting angry PMs from people after I've killed them. I stand by the fact that it is a harsh setting, that if and when it makes sense for people in power to kill people (whether that means they are a defiler or a templar), if it makes IC sense, it makes IC sense. End of story. On to the next.
Should a Templar always let people off with a slap on the wrist? I am sure most people would agree that would be silly. Some people have to die. And there has to always be the mortal threat of death. That doesn't mean it's always the knee-jerk option, every time. But it is and should be ever present when dealing with a Templar.
This answer comes up every time, too.
What if X. What if Y. The setting has to be harsh. Death has to be a threat. I don't even disagree.
But ever since returning, Templars have been far more brutal and murderous than they were before I took my break. I don't like it, I don't want to be around them, and my fun is my own, as is that of other people. Your line mirrors the one staff gave me; fine. I'm going to join all these
other people and not feel very surprised Allanak is so empty.
Just pointing out for the sake of it, the sum total of all Templar kills for the year is LESS THAN a handful of single, Indy PCs by themselves that don't play anywhere in or around Allanak.
Quote from: Shabago on October 17, 2021, 06:56:50 PM
Just pointing out for the sake of it, the sum total of all Templar kills for the year is LESS THAN a handful of single, Indy PCs by themselves that don't play anywhere in or around Allanak.
I truly wonder where people are getting the idea that Templars are murderhobo'ing. In the years that I have played, I've only been killed by a Templar one time and it was very much deserved.
I wonder how much of it is in fact that people don't quite understand? I've seen how people RP while being interrogated by Templars and Other People. Y'all are sassy as fuck while you get your nails ripped out, it's no wonder you end up dead half the time. I'm also guilty of it at times, I get all snarky when I'm losing too, but that doesn't mean I don't deserve an In Character spanking for being dumb ICly.
In terms of executions on behalf of Templars the numbers are much higher though. Not direct pks.
Or assassins/ thugs working for templars etc.
Not even saying it is a bad thing in any way. Just sayin'. I have no problem with Nak at all. For me I like to take a break from bowing and scraping rp so my pcs can be free and independant, so maybe 1/5 pcs is nakki. I enjoy those PCs too though.
Quote from: Patuk on October 17, 2021, 06:36:54 PM
Quote from: Veselka on October 17, 2021, 06:20:14 PM
Something to note: if you repeatedly run away without RP from people in power (be they raiders or Templars) they tend to not be super duper merciful if and when they catch up with you.
I agree that it behooves those in power (and with actual coded crime code power) to err on the side of caution. There are a ton more options for stories than straight up execution, be that threats, physical violence, mental violence, threats against their loved ones, and so on.
What makes sense in the context of the scene, of the people involved, of the crimes committed (or not committed)? It's a very subjective nuanced 'thing', and sometimes, it makes the most sense to execute someone. Other times, it makes sense to let them go with a warning, or with a physical reminder rather than death. It's different in Tuluk than it is in Allanak, too.
I think people jump to the conclusion that 'The Powers That Be' are always the problem, but I think it's a two way street. If your PC is being a dumb criminal and getting caught often, yeah, they're probably not going to make the cut (especially if they are a dingus and not playing ball). Whether it was on a Templar or Garrison Captain or whatever, it's surprising how stupid people can be when faced with mortal danger. I'm no stranger to getting angry PMs from people after I've killed them. I stand by the fact that it is a harsh setting, that if and when it makes sense for people in power to kill people (whether that means they are a defiler or a templar), if it makes IC sense, it makes IC sense. End of story. On to the next.
Should a Templar always let people off with a slap on the wrist? I am sure most people would agree that would be silly. Some people have to die. And there has to always be the mortal threat of death. That doesn't mean it's always the knee-jerk option, every time. But it is and should be ever present when dealing with a Templar.
This answer comes up every time, too.
What if X. What if Y. The setting has to be harsh. Death has to be a threat. I don't even disagree.
But ever since returning, Templars have been far more brutal and murderous than they were before I took my break. I don't like it, I don't want to be around them, and my fun is my own, as is that of other people. Your line mirrors the one staff gave me; fine. I'm going to join all these other people and not feel very surprised Allanak is so empty.
The more I think a out it, the more I realize this is the answer. And it isn't only true of Allanak.
Avoid the fun-ruiners and your fun won't be ruined.
The only problem in Allanak is that I'm not playing at the moment.
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 19, 2021, 10:04:39 AM
The only problem in Allanak is that I'm not playing at the moment.
You're definitely a fun creator. Miss ya but happy for ya.
But yeah, I went through my character list, thought about the causes of death... patuk and anyone who said templars are the problem won the thread.
Having access to an infinite number of insta-death NPCs doesn't mean you should access and abuse this power infinitely. Unless your goal is in fact depopulation.
That is actually a common thing of any city when leadership proves ... Irresponsible. If a templar gets too harsh and murderous without other templars to balance it out, the populace flees the city. First the PC GMH people begin to frequent less and less. Then other people.
This happens in the rinth as well. Each time a sponsored guild member begins to solve all of his internal problems with PK, suddenly - ghost town.
This happened in Tuluk. Can't start an antagonistic plot without Faithful being 100% aware of it, inviting you for a chat? Then you bring your antagonistic ideas into another rp sphere.
It's a common issue. It's totally IC to be brutal, but if you overdo it to a point of being detrimental to the game, then it's a problem. And staff can't go out of the way to stomp you down, because the person did not technically break any rules. At best they can role call another templar in to balance out the brutality. But success rate of that is intermittent 'and' it takes time.
We all agree though. Any brutal action is justified if it ends with Shaleah playing the game and never leaving.
Okay, so, now that we have identified the ACTUAL problem (PK hungry templars/leaders), what's the solution?
Write a guide for new players along the lines of, "You might have heard Templars create plots, but they actually just railroad and end plots, do not approach?"
Give Leader PCs a PK limit of three players an IG year because it's not actually impressive when they PK someone at all given their gross power?
Do nothing and continue to let sadists have their sandbox while people with better things to do go elsewhere?
It's a little hard to find a good solution here, halp.
Embrace favoritism and give leadership roles to same people again and again as they proved themselves to be content positive instead of content negative?
Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 11:26:34 AM
Embrace favoritism and give leadership roles to same people again and again as they proved themselves to be content positive instead of content negative?
I love this game and I don't want to disparage it or even imply disparagement. But thanks for being so astute as you discussed this with me Socratically.
It hurts sometimes but I am glad there are ways to still enjoy the game as Patuk mentioned. Advice worth heeding. When I take this advice it concides with playing very casually and rarely but that is fine.
Templars are way less murderous than say... spiders.. carru.. scrab.. in my case err.. tandu.. gurth etc. You generally do have to break a pretty serious law, be straight up rude to them or be an abomination, usually, to warrant enough attention from a Templar for them to bothered about PKing you.
*turns up the ICly justified PK dial*
Nah fam.
Quote from: triste on October 19, 2021, 10:09:00 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 19, 2021, 10:04:39 AM
The only problem in Allanak is that I'm not playing at the moment.
You're definitely a fun creator. Miss ya but happy for ya.
But yeah, I went through my character list, thought about the causes of death... patuk and anyone who said templars are the problem won the thread.
Having access to an infinite number of insta-death NPCs doesn't mean you should access and abuse this power infinitely. Unless your goal is in fact depopulation.
When you went through your character list, did you also note your own involvement for your PC's demise?
Takes two to tango y'all.
Quote from: triste on October 19, 2021, 11:00:35 AM
Okay, so, now that we have identified the ACTUAL problem (PK hungry templars/leaders), what's the solution?
Write a guide for new players along the lines of, "You might have heard Templars create plots, but they actually just railroad and end plots, do not approach?"
Give Leader PCs a PK limit of three players an IG year because it's not actually impressive when they PK someone at all given their gross power?
Do nothing and continue to let sadists have their sandbox while people with better things to do go elsewhere?
It's a little hard to find a good solution here, halp.
Good solution:
Go play in tribes. Avoid cities (and meaningful plots and stories). Cherish your PC's story over every other PC's story, because you are the star of the show. Repeat ad nauseum.
I'm fine with that, maybe because it resembles my life. Yes, I cycle through half elf loners, tribal loners, gicker loners, vagabond loners ad nauseum.
Judge me all you want, just please make the game fun for whoever plays it and what niches they fill. Don't whine if your cities go empty, instead offer better stories in those cities (that are less likely to end in abusing your power to murder people).
Last note because I like to end on positive terms.
That templar who I mentioned coming on to my character, but stopping, was great. He got my character involved in plots and never PKed any of my characters. The character I played after being away for four years, which he got involved in plots? A tribal.
This Templar was not a Care Bear, he was a Trade Minister. Ask any merchant on any planet and they will tell you that living customers and employees are good for business. Even morticians need hearse drivers and people left alive to mourn. And so this Templar dealt with Tribals, he did not PK them.
My tribal, a tribal like you just dismissively told me to play, got involved not only with Templars but also with Kukuali, who started a RPT which drew more players than we had in YEARS -- more than eighty players for multiple days -- and that's right, Kukuali was "just a tribal" too.
You can play in your dollhouse alone, or invite friends. Respect to all players. I like what Dar said about being content positive.
If it makes sense for any of my PCs to kill your special snowflake Pc, they will. Regardless of whether I the Player feel kind of bad about it or not. Or whether my PC is a leader or Templar or assassin or Elf or a nobody.
Get real, it's Armageddon, not Stardew Valley.
Also 'Content Positive' vs 'Content Negative'. It's the responsibility of Templars to reinforce documentation for their area of influence.
As an example, an escaped slave from Allanak will absolutely be killed if it is recaptured, particularly a Mul. They can't be reconditioned, and are therefore useless as a slave, and set a bad example for other slaves. It would be odd (though perhaps there would be extenuating circumstances IG) for a Templar to just release a recaptured slave.
As another example, if an elf criminal is given a second opportunity after being captured once, it isn't likely they will be given a third opportunity. They were given their second chance. Allanak is a brutal place. If everyone just receives hand-slaps, the authority of Allanak is laughably lax.
As another example, if a soldier deserts from their post and they are caught, they are executed. They aren't given a hand slap and told 'don't do that again'. The PC on the other side of that equation should be well aware of that -- if they aren't, I don't really know what to say.
As another example, if you are a mage in Tuluk and are discovered, you should absolutely expect a fate worse than death. There is historical precedent in Tuluk for the level of mage hatred they have. I have yet to see an exception to this.
Furthermore, if you are a mage sympathizer or consort with mages or worse, defilers and Mindbenders, you should absolutely expect death or worse in Tuluk. In Allanak, YMMV.
I find that people that are surprised by the brutality of either Tuluk or Allanak and their ruling class aren't paying very close attention to the documentation of the game world, and are then surprised when others reinforce it. It's pretty cut and dry to me. I don't see Templars stomping out every thief or elf they catch -- If anything I see them trying to show restraint, particularly on first meetings, and offering an opportunity to not shit the bed. Then, they shit the bed, and expect the Templar not to make good on their threat of 'if I catch you next time, there won't be a next time'.
Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 10:14:41 AM
That is actually a common thing of any city when leadership proves ... Irresponsible. If a templar gets too harsh and murderous without other templars to balance it out, the populace flees the city. First the PC GMH people begin to frequent less and less. Then other people.
This happens in the rinth as well. Each time a sponsored guild member begins to solve all of his internal problems with PK, suddenly - ghost town.
This happened in Tuluk. Can't start an antagonistic plot without Faithful being 100% aware of it, inviting you for a chat? Then you bring your antagonistic ideas into another rp sphere.
It's a common issue. It's totally IC to be brutal, but if you overdo it to a point of being detrimental to the game, then it's a problem. And staff can't go out of the way to stomp you down, because the person did not technically break any rules. At best they can role call another templar in to balance out the brutality. But success rate of that is intermittent 'and' it takes time.
We all agree though. Any brutal action is justified if it ends with Shaleah playing the game and never leaving.
Totally valid to file a player complaint about a Templar that you don't think is playing in good faith.
I was playing a Salarr Family Member who was basically held liable for OOC shortcomings IC. The Templar in question ordered a custom craft (Surprise) and gave no real indication or instructions or specifics over what the end result should look like, just that it be made of a certain material. The item was made, and they were expecting it to be worn on the 'arms' slot and it was on the 'forearms' slot instead. They blew a lid, IC, and told my PC they were an idiot, incompetent, and so on. Alright, that's cool, but I just took it all IC and stopped taking orders from that Templar really and life went on. Offered to change it for free (OOC, contact staff and ask if the wear location could be changed) and they again rolled IC and said 'no it's fine I'll take it you're just an idiot'.
Life moves on, and then more orders come in from this Templar. The orders are put in, but we are going through Staff changes at the time, and things slow down, which happens in GMH often. It's fine. It should be expected. Your widgets are taking longer than usual. But, the Templar decides to go to Defcon 10, and start threatening my Salarr PC's employees (two of which are the master-crafters of the clan) as a sort of 'meta dig' (Well If I can't have anything, then no one can!). Demands to have the items in question in X amount of time or else.
So -- I filed a player complaint. This was outside of the normal ken. I was being held responsible IG for things that are entirely out of my control OOC, and then there are going to be IG consequences for that. Staff took a look at the situation from all sides. They agreed that Templars absolutely have authority to be dicks and assholes and demanding, but that in this case, it was a bit too much to hold a PC responsible for OOC constraints (Mastercrafts take at least 30 days, they can only be crafted when there are master crafters around, orders have to be filled by Staff and not in person by a PC most of the time, and so on). No one was stored, it was just a course correction.
So -- I think people should be less afraid of filing player complaints, particularly if they have a constructive course correction to offer for that leadership PC. Staff may not always take your point of view (they certainly haven't taken all of mine, particularly in recent times), but they do seem to consider everything objectively, or at least as much as they can. I doubt they want Murderhobo Templars instead of Templars that adhere to and reinforce documentation, foment plots and not end them all, and try to make their area of influence fun and dangerous.
And then there's people like me who WANT killing templates cause "back in my day" they [Templars] *were* realllllllly corrupt and murderous.
Players get attached to their characters, their plots. The sheer amount of time and care it takes for the characters to "get good" is INSANE when you can go click buttons, pair up with your buddy and go storm thecastle, get l33t l00t and respawn immediately to try again.
What am I trying to say?
The problem isn't [location] - it's never the location. It's so much more complicated than that.
The Armageddon I stopped playing a couple years ago was nowhere near as thematic as it was when I started playing. It's crazy to me [cause I'm old] that people think THIS is brutal and hostile.
The issue could possibly be narrowed down to this question... How can we have fun playing a "game" when one of the objects of the game is to "live a full, rich life" and one of the others is to master the code to make thriving in the world easier?
Do you live or do you grind?
Do you want to deal with the city dangers or the dangers in the wild?
YOU choose your reality when you create your character, my people. Allanak is murderous and corrupt and oppressive. It's simple. Don't play there if you don't like that.
Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
Also 'Content Positive' vs 'Content Negative'. It's the responsibility of Templars to reinforce documentation for their area of influence.
As an example, an escaped slave from Allanak will absolutely be killed if it is recaptured, particularly a Mul. They can't be reconditioned, and are therefore useless as a slave, and set a bad example for other slaves. It would be odd (though perhaps there would be extenuating circumstances IG) for a Templar to just release a recaptured slave.
Most people aren't escaped slaves.
Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
As another example, if an elf criminal is given a second opportunity after being captured once, it isn't likely they will be given a third opportunity. They were given their second chance. Allanak is a brutal place. If everyone just receives hand-slaps, the authority of Allanak is laughably lax.
Most people aren't elves. The people who are, don't get third chances. Nor second ones. They don't even do crime before they get killed.
Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
As another example, if a soldier deserts from their post and they are caught, they are executed. They aren't given a hand slap and told 'don't do that again'. The PC on the other side of that equation should be well aware of that -- if they aren't, I don't really know what to say.
Most people aren't soldiers.
Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
As another example, if you are a mage in Tuluk and are discovered, you should absolutely expect a fate worse than death. There is historical precedent in Tuluk for the level of mage hatred they have. I have yet to see an exception to this.
Most people aren't mages (yet). And certainly, the amount of Gemmed suggests that it's one role people do still play.
Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM
I find that people that are surprised by the brutality of either Tuluk or Allanak and their ruling class aren't paying very close attention to the documentation of the game world, and are then surprised when others reinforce it. It's pretty cut and dry to me. I don't see Templars stomping out every thief or elf they catch -- If anything I see them trying to show restraint, particularly on first meetings, and offering an opportunity to not shit the bed. Then, they shit the bed, and expect the Templar not to make good on their threat of 'if I catch you next time, there won't be a next time'.
Nobody is surprised, is the thing. I have played this game for a decade. Triste has played it for even longer. The amount of people who are bright-eyed and new is a rounding error on Armageddon. People have played the game, for years and years; people have experience with how things were two, five, ten years ago. Pretending that they don't know the things they see and have seen is extremely condescending.
From the OP:
QuoteI think we all know it, but right now, Allanak has barely a population of players.
'The city is working as intended, nobody has done any wrong' is a valid opinion. The city is also a bit of a ghost town, which is difficult to square with things working as intended. Don't think anything should change? Fine. I find it unlikely that things will, too, and in the end the game owes nothing to anyone; Allanak can remain empty and desolate.
I don't think folks are trying to be patronizing - they're working with what they've got in the thread. There have been a number of posts from folks who seem to have recurring bad outcomes from their encounters with Templars, but almost uniformly these posts omit any indication of what actions or speech their PC was engaged in prior to execution.
Does this mean there are not templars negatively impacting the game with excess PK? No, that could be true, or it could be perceived as true and have the same chilling effect as if it were on activity in the region. But I find it unlikely that templars are simply blithely murdering whoever they happen to encounter for no reason or provocation whatsoever. Again, that is not to excuse templar PCs (it's really hard to judge a PK situation in the abstract since details matter and every situation is different) but if one player is repeatedly losing PCs to templars, templars are not the only constant in this equation that might merit examination.
PS, templars do kill without justification. I had a character a year or two ago who was accused of being a sorcerer (not true), clan dumped and killed in her clan hall. When I whined about this a while after I was told "Yeah your character was totally innocent and was framed to spare someone else's life. If you knew all the details, you'd think it was really cool!"
Victim blaming, little less cool. Some deaths I deserved but the facts are Templars often mash that kill button, "order guard kill stooge" or whatever it is. Outcome is, "sucks for you!" Remember kids Patuk has good advice here.
I've also lost PCs who were wrongly accused of being mages, spies, etc. It sucks tremendously, but it's not killing without justification. The justification is that you are presumed to be a sorcerer. If the templar knew you were innocent and they were in on it... that's still "justified" and it sucks tremendously.
What would you like to change to prevent that? I'm asking genuinely, not being snarky. What rule would improve that experience? "No framing people" is kind of silly and I don't think that's what you're suggesting. But what would you do differently?
Is it a bad time to mention that I haven't died to a templar ever. Nor have I ever been executed in Allanak. I've been captured as an abomination and dissapeared a few times in tuluk, but every time there is an ounce of corruption present, none of my characters ever died.
Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 04:46:05 PM
Is it a bad time to mention that I haven't died to a templar ever. Nor have I ever been executed in Allanak.
You aren't the only one!
Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2021, 04:46:05 PM
Is it a bad time to mention that I haven't died to a templar ever. Nor have I ever been executed in Allanak.
Yes, because it invalidates everybody else who has experienced that.
It's not a good argument if it is summarized by "it doesn't happen to me, so
it doesn't happen ever."
Templars have been complained about for a long, long time, by people that don't like the brutality of either city states. I think that's fine. I don't think that's a thing that needs to be fixed. There are clans outside those city-states if you don't like Templars, or you can be independent. I think Templars and their brutality are a staple of the game, and I have only seen 1-2 of them in my time that were genuinely murderhobos. Frankly, I think some of the stories are exaggerated. There's always a tale that you don't see behind the enemy. My one suggestion would be trying to do some of the corruption, as said in the name-sake of the game.
What I -do- believe needs to be fixed, however, is the lack of fun in city clans. My personal opinion is, that when the majority of the active world is independent, hardly any plots or happenings get pushed forwards because you often get little virtual support or political sway as some random dwarf hunter outside of 'threaten grebber' 'say drop bag' or 'cast mon un fireball'.
I personally would be playing in city clans (like the AoD for example) all the time if they had things to do that didn't entirely rely on PC criminality (which leads to soldiers getting very over-eager when it comes to enforcing crimes, even petty ones due to boredom), or RPTs that are ultimately very sparse in number. Not to mention how these clans and cities are almost always depopulated in recent times so even if you tried, your PC would have a whole lot of difficulty making up schemes of their own. This all heavily discourages clan play, and creates these empty cities. Everyone's out doing their own largely inconsequential thing instead of clanning it up.
I think this is one of the biggest "Allanak Problems".
How do you fix this? I'm not entirely sure. My only suggestion would be allowing people to role-app into being a Private or Trooper or the equivalent role in these clans, to skip the month of IRL time you need to invest before you're able to be counted as a full member inside that clan. More horizontal promotions could be added in to allow these apped-in roles space to still distinguish themselves. I personally don't play in clans all too often because I hate the boring times between RPTs and inside-city happenings, all the while the wait you need to do to become a full-fledged member of that clan. Being a recruit for the first time is cool, but for the eighth time? No thanks. I would much rather play as a tribal which spawns you in as an accepted member with immediate virtual support, or a clan that allows you to leave the gates to go hunt chaltons or what have you. The new sparring NPCs are a good step forwards in facilitating play in city clans such as the AoD/Legions, and I think it was a very good change for the better.
I dunno what the current policy is but I thought in the past folks could role app things like AoD privates and Byn troopers. At a bare minimum, I don't think anyone would fault you for spec-apping for a role like that. Probably a lot more tame than some of the other apps that come in.
I think role app/calls for more established characters would be nice.
Emphasis mine:
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 19, 2021, 04:19:06 PM
I don't think folks are trying to be patronizing - they're working with what they've got in the thread. There have been a number of posts from folks who seem to have recurring bad outcomes from their encounters with Templars, but almost uniformly these posts omit any indication of what actions or speech their PC was engaged in prior to execution.
Does this mean there are not templars negatively impacting the game with excess PK? No, that could be true, or it could be perceived as true and have the same chilling effect as if it were on activity in the region. But I find it unlikely that templars are simply blithely murdering whoever they happen to encounter for no reason or provocation whatsoever. Again, that is not to excuse templar PCs (it's really hard to judge a PK situation in the abstract since details matter and every situation is different) but if one player is repeatedly losing PCs to templars, templars are not the only constant in this equation that might merit examination.
These aren't thing you can generally talk about, so they aren't talked about. People further upthread yet have decided templars can do no wrong in murdering others because the details aren't provided; fine. Let Allanak remain empty, if its players are intent on being by themselves. Suits me.
What Patuk said.
You can't exactly just go 'Here's the exact Templar and situation' as generally you can't really talk about those details due to IC in OOC shenanigans.
I will admit I see people...kinda acting a fool sometimes. Not sure why, cockyness?, Pride?, etc.
I've found I can, generally, get out of situations by begging and pleading.
Generally
I've had situations in game, primarily without Templars but a few with, where no matter what the fuck I did it seemed the person on the other end wanted to throw my ass into the arena or just kill me.
I've luckily managed to avoid all of these situations.
Templar situation was avoided because I'm a smart lad and made friends with powerful people.
Outdoor situations are generally avoided with the good ole 'RUN THE FUCK AWAY' method of doing things.
Even with this stated, I don't mean it to be a 'EVERYONE WHO DIES OR GETS TORTURED IS BAD AND WRONG', I actually agree with those individuals quite heavily, and my experiences aren't even 'bad' in my mind (If I had 'lost' in those situations I'd have been fine with it, if not a bit pissed in the moment but otherwise okay.)
Even if we assume that everyone who gets bullied by soldiers and Templars 'is playing the game wrong' (Which is what dismissing these claims seems to usually boil down to), I can smell a notable change in the game when Allanak has like 10 people in it and Luirs is rocking 15 because everyone knows Templar so and so will beat your ass for walking by him without bowing while walking down the busiest road in the known.
And I don't like it when the game is like this. I fucking hate Luirs. (Nothing wrong with it, I just vastly prefer a real city and not your capitalist hell in the middle of the known. Miss me with that.)
(To the Templar who over 2 years ago contacted my hidden elf for leaving the room when you walked in, I hope you uncomfortable choke on cheese for about 2 seconds before getting yourself situated and enjoying a tasty mozzarella stick. You fucker. I want you to be sweating.)
Quote from: Patuk on October 19, 2021, 05:58:51 PM
Emphasis mine:
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 19, 2021, 04:19:06 PM
I don't think folks are trying to be patronizing - they're working with what they've got in the thread. There have been a number of posts from folks who seem to have recurring bad outcomes from their encounters with Templars, but almost uniformly these posts omit any indication of what actions or speech their PC was engaged in prior to execution.
Does this mean there are not templars negatively impacting the game with excess PK? No, that could be true, or it could be perceived as true and have the same chilling effect as if it were on activity in the region. But I find it unlikely that templars are simply blithely murdering whoever they happen to encounter for no reason or provocation whatsoever. Again, that is not to excuse templar PCs (it's really hard to judge a PK situation in the abstract since details matter and every situation is different) but if one player is repeatedly losing PCs to templars, templars are not the only constant in this equation that might merit examination.
These aren't thing you can generally talk about, so they aren't talked about. People further upthread yet have decided templars can do no wrong in murdering others because the details aren't provided; fine. Let Allanak remain empty, if its players are intent on being by themselves. Suits me.
If that's directed at me, I've repeatedly tried to engage on the subject in good faith and as I mentioned previously, would be interested to hear what changes or rules people upset about this issue would like to see. I am neither dismissing the possibility that this is a problem nor endorsing the idea, because I simply do not have enough actual data and anecdotes on the GDB are not typically a good way to make informed decisions about trends in the game.
If it's over a year old and you can talk about the part where a templar killed you, you can also probably talk about what you were doing. If it's something you still can't talk about even after a year, then it sounds a lot like something templars are usually justified in killing people over.
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 19, 2021, 06:10:11 PM
If that's directed at me, I've repeatedly tried to engage on the subject in good faith and as I mentioned previously, would be interested to hear what changes or rules people upset about this issue would like to see. I am neither dismissing the possibility that this is a problem nor endorsing the idea, because I simply do not have enough actual data and anecdotes on the GDB are not typically a good way to make informed decisions about trends in the game.
Well, that's the thing. The rules aren't the issue. They are the same rules we had five, ten, twenty years ago. It is player culture, pure and simple. I remember a more engaging Allanak than the one we have, five years ago; that time is past. It may come back! As-is, the rules haven't shifted, the people in charge have.
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 19, 2021, 06:10:11 PM
If it's over a year old and you can talk about the part where a templar killed you, you can also probably talk about what you were doing. If it's something you still can't talk about even after a year, then it sounds a lot like something templars are usually justified in killing people over.
I came back to the game in april, after a four year or so break, which is why the difference is so stark to me. Nothing that's happened since then is anything I can talk about.
Thread lock warning.
We're looking for actual, constructive feedback or things that could/should change. Not pages worth of "You're wrong, NO YOU'RE WRONG."
In general, needlessly murderous unfun Templars are balanced out by ... other templars. The ones who murder without reason are soon ostracized by ... everyone. Independents keep away, criminals keep away, socially unprotected by nobility keep away. This reduces their ability and influence. Lack of ability and influence keeps nobility away as they want to bribe, flatter, and interact 'useful' templars. Soon enough we have one templar who is successful, influential, powerful, and promoted. And another templar in the background that's raging the rages.
And that's how it often is supposed to work and I think is working as intended. Unfortunate if it pushes some players away though. But I think if we lose this, we lose a big chunk of Zalanthan theme.
What if we made killing "power" in game easier?
What if the power were more corruptible?
How can we teach players to be more self serving and less loyal to the entities that house and feed them?
We gotta get the PLAYERS to get off on dog those things. I really think that the players hold the key.
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 21, 2021, 11:40:38 AM
What if we made killing "power" in game easier?
Killing seems pretty easy as is. You mean getting away with killing maybe?
Each time I was in position to scratch off templars like gnats, I always concluded that it would damage the game more then it was worth it. A pair of miscreants (infiltrators?) if properly trained will have a good chance to off a templar.
It's just super dangerous before, during, and after the hit and not everyone want to expose themselves to such a long term blatant risk after sinking two months into training that PC.
I actually think tranquil's role app idea for city clans is great, such as the AoD/Legion, or pre atrium trained aides for players with a lot of experience. These could burn a spec app but come with boosted skills as if they apped into a role, more than simply selecting the skillboost option. I personally like that rise from recruit but I understand how that can be daunting for someone without a whole lot of time (regarding soldiers). With a new job sometimes taking up 6 days a week for me it is attractive, even if I do love the grind.
Quote from: Narf on October 21, 2021, 11:50:01 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 21, 2021, 11:40:38 AM
What if we made killing "power" in game easier?
Killing seems pretty easy as is. You mean getting away with killing maybe?
Yes. I mean like politically especially - good riddance it was just another blue, we'll likely get another one in the morning. Maybe it was Lord Fancychalice, Oh no I heard it was the Guild.
I am completely against Southern Templars becoming temples of patience and pardon. I want the law to be corrupt and annoying and scary in 'Nak and ffs, bribe! Betray!
I always address it like this and there's probably a better word for it but I wish we had more of the 'Romeo and Juliet' going around.
With my explanation you'll see why this is a terrible fucking phrase for it.
At the start of Romeo and Juliet, well near the start, the two noble families start fighting in the street and a few people die.
Like with swords and shit.
Eventually the prince (I think it was the prince) shows up and goes 'Ok ya'll need to fucking stop' and thats that.
No one even gets arrested.
Of course this is a play and more dramatic, and Romeo and Juliet are from noble families and what not, but I wish we had more ability to fight in the streets.
Imagine: It's close to late at night and you're walking along wall Road. The nearest soldier is three blocks the other way.
Two elves come from the shadows and threaten you at knife point.
You type n and the elf attacks you
Three half giants come running in from the north and beat the elf to death.
I fear nothing in the streets of Allanak during the day time. We have a fucking riot every IRL month or so because the commoners get Mad so and so Templar made food in the street but we can't have a smidgen of street fighting? As a treat? A little snack?
If you'd like to hear my rant and spiel about more public punishments I also have that in my pocket.
Quote from: Jihelu on October 22, 2021, 10:43:00 AM
I always address it like this and there's probably a better word for it but I wish we had more of the 'Romeo and Juliet' going around.
With my explanation you'll see why this is a terrible fucking phrase for it.
At the start of Romeo and Juliet, well near the start, the two noble families start fighting in the street and a few people die.
Like with swords and shit.
Eventually the prince (I think it was the prince) shows up and goes 'Ok ya'll need to fucking stop' and thats that.
No one even gets arrested.
Of course this is a play and more dramatic, and Romeo and Juliet are from noble families and what not, but I wish we had more ability to fight in the streets.
Imagine: It's close to late at night and you're walking along wall Road. The nearest soldier is three blocks the other way.
Two elves come from the shadows and threaten you at knife point.
You type n and the elf attacks you
Three half giants come running in from the north and beat the elf to death.
I fear nothing in the streets of Allanak during the day time. We have a fucking riot every IRL month or so because the commoners get Mad so and so Templar made food in the street but we can't have a smidgen of street fighting? As a treat? A little snack?
If you'd like to hear my rant and spiel about more public punishments I also have that in my pocket.
I dig this so much. Wish list is that there are tiers of political privilege. Once I played an aide to a Fale. He tried to plant something on her and got arrested. It was hilarious. Do you know who I am?!? They didn't. Why didn't they? We can do better. That code is way outdated.
Put it on a scale, Templars 10 privilege, Nobles 9, AoD upper ranks 8, AoD lower ranks 7, Noble employees 6, GMH Family 5, GMH employees 4, humans 3, rinthi humans 2, lesser races 1, non citizens 0. Anything 6 and above has no arrest privilege, 4 and 5 get shorter jail time, or maybe a decent jail cell, with light... so you can SEE the roaches. 3 and below... welp.. no one told you to be born and taint His city with your peasant..ness.
You can't tell me one of the coding genuis' up there can't do THAT.
Something like that would be neat, and even the severity.
People fighting with literal sparring swords in the street? More leeway
People bare knuckle boxing? More leeway. Subduing someone knocked out would 'increase severity' though (As people would probably try to just alley kill you)
You're fighting with weapons and someone drops below -Insert number HP here-? Increase severity.
So you could have a quick street bout with someone and not even get guards running into the room, or you might fuck someone up in one hit and a soldier comes running in. You can even add half giants to the list with more severity or just random chance (Just so happens a human and half giant patrol were nearby)
Being 'low on the totem pole' could also have benefits. Who's going to care if two gutter rat rinthis are fighting in the street?
Literally why would anyone care if a templar didn't tell them to stop them? The soldiers don't get fucking paid, there's nothing to gain from stopping the fight (Looting them or asking for bribes won't work). Let them kill each other.
I think some more granularity in the crime code has been asked for over the years, and I happen to think it would actually increase the "brutality" people want in the city. If you look down an alley and two gutter trash are fighting over bread, why should the city's MILITARY PRESENCE give a shit and break it up/kill them?
I remember being in Tuluk, and Shalooonsh animated my PC getting basically accosted by [some elves] in broad daylight. Sword out, openly at my PCs throat. At the time I was pissed. Like... "Why is this allowed? This is a somewhat used street, and its midday!". In retrospect, it made a modicum of sense but the situation was only allowed because I let it be. There was no threaten code. There was nothing stopping me from typing 'run;w;w;w;s;s;s;' and finding an NPC guard that would codedly 'take care of them'.
We have a lot of tools to allow this kind of 'open violence' these days, but the crime code is still real binary.
The Binary Criminal Code could definitely use a major look under the hood. I agree it definitely /changes/ how conflict unfolds. Crime either has to be perfect, or it doesn't happen. So people only look for 'The Best Assassin' and 'The Best Thief', not just 'an assassin' or 'a thief'. It creates an odd meta push to be the absolute best you can be before committing to PC crime -- Because those times you commit crimes against NPCs, end up in jail, and get Templar'd or Templar Chatted, are numerous.
I've played on both sides of the aisle, both criminals and AoD etc, and I can say neither side is advantaged where 'FUN' is concerned. The crime code isn't fun for those enforcing it, or those trying to evade it.
There's already code in place for 'Soldiers appearing from nowhere' when you attack or run afoul of certain soldier NPCs. I'd personally love to see half-giants pretty much gone except as a virtual 'as needed' presence. They can be summoned by Templars, or they respond to serious threats (Half Giants being wanted, Muls, Magic being used, etc). It's just a bit much to have 20 roaming around Tuluk or Allanak as a crime deterrent. Crime /should/ be happening at a much higher rate but the nature of that crime is often committed by coded masters.
As Jihelu said...I'd love for the streets to be much more dangerous at night. Whether this means less half giant presence, more varied street patrols of soldiers, the ability to bribe a soldier NPC to look the other way (walk another direction), or I dunno what, but more nuance = excellent where the crime code is concerned.
I do like the idea of introducing social strata into the crime code. I also think it's a good idea to distinguish 'unarmed vs sparring weapon vs live weapon' when applying crime code.
Why can't the brawl code be extended to cover the entire city minus the thematically inappropriate places? Then we could beat each other's asses whenever and wherever we wanted?
Quote from: Jihelu on October 22, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Something like that would be neat, and even the severity.
People fighting with literal sparring swords in the street? More leeway
People bare knuckle boxing? More leeway. Subduing someone knocked out would 'increase severity' though (As people would probably try to just alley kill you)
You're fighting with weapons and someone drops below -Insert number HP here-? Increase severity.
So you could have a quick street bout with someone and not even get guards running into the room, or you might fuck someone up in one hit and a soldier comes running in. You can even add half giants to the list with more severity or just random chance (Just so happens a human and half giant patrol were nearby)
Being 'low on the totem pole' could also have benefits. Who's going to care if two gutter rat rinthis are fighting in the street?
Literally why would anyone care if a templar didn't tell them to stop them? The soldiers don't get fucking paid, there's nothing to gain from stopping the fight (Looting them or asking for bribes won't work). Let them kill each other.
If you wanted to have something almost this good, but way easier to code you could just add in a random chance that any crime doesn't get reported. Possibly with higher odds for less severe crimes (if the crime code makes that distinction).
Quote from: Veselka on October 22, 2021, 11:59:23 AM
As Jihelu said...I'd love for the streets to be much more dangerous at night. Whether this means less half giant presence, more varied street patrols of soldiers, the ability to bribe a soldier NPC to look the other way (walk another direction), or I dunno what, but more nuance = excellent where the crime code is concerned.
I was actually complaining about the streets being safe DURING THE DAY.
As an accomplished sneaky piece of shit, I know a fair amount about the functionality of the crime code in game (Not like, the literal code. Just 'If there's a question about crime code, I've probably done it'. Obviously I can't explain everything I know, and personally I don't think most of it is too 'fancy or hard to understand', but I can't just fully explain everything in my post(s).
At night, I think what we have is fairly okay. I do think soldier presence is a bit high (Insert complaints here that we use soldiers for home defense and not a guard force) but I think what we have going on at night time is pretty okay.
Quote from: Jihelu on October 22, 2021, 01:19:49 PM(Insert complaints here that we use soldiers for home defense and not a guard force)
It sorta makes sense if you consider how much of a fascist shithole Allanak is.
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 22, 2021, 12:13:37 PM
Why can't the brawl code be extended to cover the entire city minus the thematically inappropriate places? Then we could beat each other's asses whenever and wherever we wanted?
I believe the game did have that, at one point. I remember having to use the old 'hit brawltest' to see if your room allowed brawling in the first place...
Maybe its a flag that a room has to have set, or a script attached to the room, so it would be time consuming to add it to 'every room someone might fight in'? Or even adding different canned emotes based on the location (because how are you going to rush someone into the table if you're in the middle of the street?)
If we did have city-wide brawling, I'd want there to be some sort of chance to get Wanted status if you beat someone to the point where the game won't LET you brawl anymore. Because at that point its been a helluva fight bordering on disruptive.
Quote from: Jihelu on October 22, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Something like that would be neat, and even the severity.
People fighting with literal sparring swords in the street? More leeway
People bare knuckle boxing? More leeway. Subduing someone knocked out would 'increase severity' though (As people would probably try to just alley kill you)
You're fighting with weapons and someone drops below -Insert number HP here-? Increase severity.
So you could have a quick street bout with someone and not even get guards running into the room, or you might fuck someone up in one hit and a soldier comes running in. You can even add half giants to the list with more severity or just random chance (Just so happens a human and half giant patrol were nearby)
Being 'low on the totem pole' could also have benefits. Who's going to care if two gutter rat rinthis are fighting in the street?
Literally why would anyone care if a templar didn't tell them to stop them? The soldiers don't get fucking paid, there's nothing to gain from stopping the fight (Looting them or asking for bribes won't work). Let them kill each other.
I think Jihelu makes a really solid point here about the social hierarchy of Allanak. I want templars to uphold the oppressive vibe of Allanak, but I do think that part of that can be reflected by Templars not giving a shit about Joe Grebber's salt sacks getting stolen from his crumbling apartment.
Oh, that knife-eared half-breed from the alleys stole your favorite shitty dagger? Really? Why is that my problem?
And of course, these things can change. Maybe the soldiers don't care about 'public safety' but the Templar in charge of them is getting complaints from nobles that their workers are getting mugged constantly...so now soldiers patrol specific roads or are more cunty for that month till the noble gets off their ass. Etc
Allanak seems to be giving way too much of a shit about public safety for no reason other than 'crime bad'
I want brawling everywhere but posh places, maybe. Obviously, two nobles shouldn't be going at other with fists.. ooh but what if they slapped each other with gloves.. no no. Better not.
At least give us a fighting pit we are allowed to duel to the death in....actually, these sorta exist IG but aren't used for this stuff or is it necessarily legal to kill in one.
Quote from: Void on October 23, 2021, 12:35:32 AM
At least give us a fighting pit we are allowed to duel to the death in....actually, these sorta exist IG but aren't used for this stuff or is it necessarily legal to kill in one.
+1000000 to this
this was the best thing the *cough* armageddon clone *cough* had
A player pit would be cool. "Let's take it to the pit."
meet me at the span
Quote from: Lotion on October 23, 2021, 12:10:10 PM
meet me at the span
Only span duels I had were with Northern characters, cuz uh, that makes a little more sense than two Southerners riding past Luir's for a place to spar.
RL analogy: two texans deciding they need to go to the US-Canada border to fight. I thought Texas had everything [the fools sure like to brag] including places where people could brawl, but maybe not!
To be fair there are literally countless places you can go to have a consensual duel in and around Allanak already.
Not to mention there is a fighting pit in Allanak.
Alright fine, will drop it, but I loved the tacky fighting pit in the Armageddon clone. It was in the main tavern, and the tavern was usually lively as a result.
If that clone "borrowed" the code here and modified it, it is at least interesting to consider what they did better.
There are some bars in the uh, bad part of town where nobody will be -too- concerned if you and your rival fight to the death.
I'll be honest, I truly do not see harm in having a fighting pit in the Fan. As long as there is an option for others outside the pit to not see the fighting echoes.
But then, didn't we already have a MMH based tavern that had that exact type of entertainment? I thought it was a great idea. Unfortunate I was in a wrong rp sphere.
If we incorporate my ideas every street is a fighting pit
Seems like the problem is cultural rather than structural. The structures for dueling/brawling DO exist but are rarely utilized for these purposes other than for mini RPTs.
Our efforts might be better placed at simply adopting a more "let's take it to the alley" culture than anything else, which would obviously need the Templarate willing to simply look the other way for these disputes. Shit, make a post on the rumor board advertising it, get someone to take bets, set it up to throw the fight (or not if you're serious), do whatever. Theoretically it's a much easier fix as well than coded changes.
The guards showing up within 4 seconds of me trying to murder a beggar in the street is not a cultural problem, it's a hard coded one.
Quote from: Shabago on October 17, 2021, 06:56:50 PM
Just pointing out for the sake of it, the sum total of all Templar kills for the year is LESS THAN a handful of single, Indy PCs by themselves that don't play anywhere in or around Allanak.
What about characters within Allanak/Rinthis?
Quote from: Jihelu on October 24, 2021, 11:59:57 AM
The guards showing up within 4 seconds of me trying to murder a beggar in the street is not a cultural problem, it's a hard coded one.
As was pointed out, there isn't a shortage of places to have a duel with another PC. Murdering a beggar is a totally different topic.
Quote from: Void on October 25, 2021, 04:53:30 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 24, 2021, 11:59:57 AM
The guards showing up within 4 seconds of me trying to murder a beggar in the street is not a cultural problem, it's a hard coded one.
As was pointed out, there isn't a shortage of places to have a duel with another PC. Murdering a beggar is a totally different topic.
My topic and entire thread I brought up was violence and murder, not dueling.
Quote from: Void on October 23, 2021, 12:35:32 AM
At least give us a fighting pit we are allowed to duel to the death in....actually, these sorta exist IG but aren't used for this stuff or is it necessarily legal to kill in one.
Its called the Arena.
Polite and civilized murder.
Quote from: Iiyola on October 25, 2021, 05:01:02 PM
Quote from: Void on October 23, 2021, 12:35:32 AM
At least give us a fighting pit we are allowed to duel to the death in....actually, these sorta exist IG but aren't used for this stuff or is it necessarily legal to kill in one.
Its called the Arena.
Most players can't access the arena willy-nilly.
Allanak is full of random people fighting in alleys and shanking each other for a skin of water.
Do ya'll really have an issue when it comes to dueling just go outside it's like 5 rooms west?
All alleyways in allanak are counted as deserted if a soldier isn't in sight, just fyi
Yaroch has a fighting pit.
If you wanted to put together an illicit fight club and cut in on the Arena betting market, there are more places in and around Allanak than I can count that you could do it perfectly fine with no fear of crimcode.
There is, or was an entire warehouse transformer into a bar with fighting possible. Entirely PC ran.
The rooftops are available for any duels to the death.
Pretty sure we've established there are plenty of spots IG to do this, but it's a lack of culture around this sort of behavior - making it fairly commonplace - which is the issue. Something we can change as players, thankfully.
Quote from: Void on October 29, 2021, 05:25:05 AM
Pretty sure we've established there are plenty of spots IG to do this, but it's a lack of culture around this sort of behavior - making it fairly commonplace - which is the issue. Something we can change as players, thankfully.
Yes - honestly, the only reason people don't already spar in places where they know they -can- spar, including outside the gates, or in a certain coded available fighting pit courtesy of the hard work and dedication of a player creating their own clan...
is because players have chosen not to do that. Yes, sparring outside the gates is dangerous. So is sparring in apartments when you forget to have mercy turned off (or if the other guy intentionally has it turned off). To me, the main difference is that when you go outside the gates you create the opportunity for plots to happen OTHER than just PK.
Wasn't there once a specific norm against sparring in apartments? Like, it was considered more than a little twinky or something and the Nenyukki would start pounding on your door?
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 29, 2021, 08:48:38 PM
Wasn't there once a specific norm against sparring in apartments? Like, it was considered more than a little twinky or something and the Nenyukki would start pounding on your door?
Yes.
Quote from: betweenford on October 26, 2021, 06:55:50 PM
Yaroch has a fighting pit.
I've never tested it. Is it non 'crim codeded' in that room allowing weapons and/or does it invovle the brawl code.
Quote from: Dracul on October 30, 2021, 07:19:27 AM
Quote from: betweenford on October 26, 2021, 06:55:50 PM
Yaroch has a fighting pit.
I've never tested it. Is it non 'crim codeded' in that room allowing weapons and/or does it invovle the brawl code.
Yes.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 29, 2021, 08:48:38 PM
Wasn't there once a specific norm against sparring in apartments? Like, it was considered more than a little twinky or something and the Nenyukki would start pounding on your door?
Has happened to me in the last year or two. You need an apartment described as large in the mdesc and you will be left alone unless you are training giants or something silly, I assume. If your apartment is described as small you will be animated on.
It makes sense most of the time.
That's weird cos if it's a large apartment wouldn't they still hear and bang on the door from outside? Same if balcony, it'd actually be worse cos of more people from the street and soldiers walking past
I'm pretty sure my upstairs neighbors do a lot of sparring. There's sure as hell not going to be any landlords coming in to make them stop -- but I live in a fairly sturdy three floor building and some apartments in nak would probably fit within that same size range, if after all they can even FIT half-giants in them.
For my visuals I kind of imagine that a lot of Allanak has to be scaled up, rough-hewn brickwork with lots of redundant support due to a lack of advanced structural technology (all houses in general in Nak are two stories at most, rarely three). If you have that kind of flooring, unless half-giants or doing other ridiculous things, I think a spar wouldn't gather that much attention.
Sparring in a "tiny closet shitcorner" though doesn't really work, as it'd probably break the door. That'd be bad and get attention.
Literally whole families live in one apartment, multiple generations, think of the worst third world countries. The cops aren't going to show up to a noise complaint. Small apartment is unrealistic to spar in, but large is fine.
I understand the issue is that potentially people just hide away constantly, but I haven't noticed much of a problem tbh.
I think a good way to address the militia being often boring to play in Allanak, is to disable crimcode in it's entirety.
Have NPC soldiers only react to crime that they can physically see, and then give every non-combat clan leader role an NPC guard that they can use to protect themselves. Have 'wanted' status only able to be applied by PC Templars and PC Militia.
This would make Allanak far more volatile and actually let the Militia do their jobs as law enforcement. Also, will allow for far cooler city plots, impromptu street battles, duels, etc - just for some examples.
It's not exactly a novel new idea, but would be nice if it was atleast experimented with for a period. Maybe the virtual Arm of the Dragon has to fortify their positions outside the city, which leads to lesser 'presence' for that time.
That's a sensational idea, Tranquil.
+1, when the Capulets and Montagues fought in the middle of the street AI guards didn't scream HALT and walk in to stop the scene. At least not as quickly as you see on Armageddon.
+1 also to the notion that landlords complaining about noise is silly, have any of you ever lived in a cheap apartment today or studied the history of apartments generally.
If you don't believe a city could be so lawless try moving to SF or Seattle in the year 2021, or any working to lower class part of a city at any point in history going back to ancient Babylon. Just like real life, only wealthy districts should have anything close to instant crim code.
last time this idea surfaced, someone noted that crim code would most realistically be triggered based on your individual social class, but that improvement to the idea left the core idea dead in the water.
Much as though I approve of a crimcode-less Allanak, I don't think changing things that way will in any way see people play or interact there more.
Quote from: Patuk on November 03, 2021, 04:59:24 PM
Much as though I approve of a crimcode-less Allanak, I don't think changing things that way will in any way see people play or interact there more.
IDK when a dude raped me last year in Seattle I rage quit Seattle because of the hypocrisy and bullshit of a crimcode system that works for some but not others.
When I was almost killed in Vegas less than a year ago, I sort of accepted it because the entire point of that city is lawlessness. It's
fun even if you almost die! Still go there all the time. Closest thing to Zalanthas in America.
It would suck for soft uwu merchant types who don't know how to fight, but that sort of person in Zalanthas has never been realistic (unless you have a pimp or some other form of protection).
Sorry I keep bringing up real life but this game strives for realism with permadeath, etc.
Quote from: Patuk on November 03, 2021, 04:59:24 PM
Much as though I approve of a crimcode-less Allanak, I don't think changing things that way will in any way see people play or interact there more.
The weak should fear the strong.
I promise you on my honor the minute we move to a crimcode-less Allanak is the minute I mug a noble in the middle of the god damned street.
When I was thinking of the whole 'crimecodeless streets' thing I had a realization: It probably won't happen. Staff thinks, or correctly interprets, that the players are so scared of crime we've got anti-thief soldiers and shit in places.
I can't imagine how people would react if I could put a club to their head because they decided to walk down a road with no soldiers on it and alone.
I'm feeling spicy today.
Perma crime code is stupid and shouldn't exist except in the most crazy of cases. Of those cases including: I'm 10 feet tall and blue and sparkle where I walk around.
Nevermind I am on team Patuk after reading Jihelu's post, because I am about realism not twinky PvP stupidity (or maybe it is some truly immense intellect I can't understand). Go on and proceed.
Quote from: triste on November 03, 2021, 06:42:57 PM
Nevermind I am on team Patuk after reading Jihelu's post, because I am about realism not twinky PvP stupidity (or maybe it is some truly immense intellect I can't understand). Go on and proceed.
Triste is getting mugged in the street day 1
Also none of what I said contradicts anything the other page and a half I wrote about the topic and the 'realism' of it.
Quote from: Jihelu on November 03, 2021, 06:47:45 PM
Quote from: triste on November 03, 2021, 06:42:57 PM
Nevermind I am on team Patuk after reading Jihelu's post, because I am about realism not twinky PvP stupidity (or maybe it is some truly immense intellect I can't understand). Go on and proceed.
Triste is getting mugged in the street day 1
Also none of what I said contradicts anything the other page and a half I wrote about the topic and the 'realism' of it.
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuh do you know what this game is about, or the rules of it?
Also you can try, but
I am not here to shit talk.
Also correct that you regurgitated many of the previous points, including mine. But you did it in a way that made me realize it was a very, very bad idea.
I don't want to see Lord Borsail taken out by Clubbrainz the Dwarf, whose focus is to max skillz and sap em all.
I was referring mostly to my posts on the topic, not other peoples.
The Dwarf should be able to do that without getting magical soldiers spawned in (Though I can see concessions for certain places having the magic half giant death squads that come from the roof tops, but I honestly would prefer something that if you look in the room you can tell 'there is a soldier presence here'), but in this situation
1: The noble is on a 'safe' road (AKA: The road between the noble quarters to red's, and not somewhere stupid). The Dwarf beating him over the head with a club is going to get his ass beat by his guard + the soldier that comes running over (Only the soldier isn't accompanied by 30 other soldiers, those will slowly trinkle in as the fight goes on, but was one that was actively patrolling the road to keep it safe)
2: The noble is in a dumb fucking area with no soldiers. His guard either protects him or he gets clubbed.
This also doesn't stop or change the fact that you can get away with most of this at night.
I actually talked a lot about this particular thing last year or the year before. Crimcode was always a bit stifling, but we made it moreso because, frankly, it's -very frustrating- to have crime committed on you in the city. Losing things you put a lot of investment into, or getting attacked in place where you felt safe, is always going to feel that way. For some reason, we made the solution to try and prevent the feeling of loss from ever happening, instead of working on removing the feeling of safety.
-No- crimcode is not a good idea. But get rid of instant spawning soldiers. Get rid of instant reactions. Get rid of NPC soldiers being the automated part of Allanak. This does not make crime rampant. What it -does- do is make criminals more capable of literally fighting their way out of bad situations, because sometimes that's the answer in a good story; fight your way out of this shitty scenario, then run your ass off to evade the reaction. Sure, now you're in a bad spot, but immediacy demanded it, and now you get to try and work your way out of it.
Simultaneously, this makes PC militia 'the smart ones'. The diligent ones. They go on patrols, they are actually curious about what's going on over here that has this group hanging out. Why? Because they are the ones who can actually catch things happening in the act. If they aren't proactively seeking out crime, sure, they'll still be bored. But at least proactively seeking out crime has results in that state. In the current state, proactively seeking out crime, criminals, and disorder is fruitless; the npc's do it BETTER than you can as a thinking player.
ETA: And to pre-emptively address the 'The soldiers were improved to deal with people ignoring the virtual world' argument that ALWAYS arises and probably was the sole reason for creation of those bits of code, consider 2 things:
1: We only ever enforce 'the virtual world' in a way that promotes order. We never promote the disorder in the virtual world. This also promotes monotony and falling-into-line, instead of randomness and the opportunity to be swept up in things that are entirely unpredictable as far as conflict, action, and explosion. If you're going to use the same old argument that actually really doesn't hold water in any arena other than 'people feel cheated and complain about this', then at least address this. This is boring.
2: This is a game world. A game world that we play in. Enforcement of the virtual world in this way may indeed reflect on the virtual world, but it's at the cost of the game-world -sucking-. Promote the game-world over all, it needs to be a place that people can actually do things. Some of those things may be undesirable. Address those cases where it's abusive. But a dude starting a fight in the streets is not abuse. It's playing in the world that actually interacts with them, instead of being utterly swamped down by the world that doesn't.
Crimcode is uninteresting because if it's on a timer you basically just need to escape and then find an afk spot to accept the hunger clock penalty until it wears off and if it's permacrimcode then chances are you were already planning on never going there anyway.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 04, 2021, 12:00:12 PM
1: We only ever enforce 'the virtual world' in a way that promotes order. We never promote the disorder in the virtual world. This also promotes monotony and falling-into-line, instead of randomness and the opportunity to be swept up in things that are entirely unpredictable as far as conflict, action, and explosion. If you're going to use the same old argument that actually really doesn't hold water in any arena other than 'people feel cheated and complain about this', then at least address this. This is boring.
This is a good point I wanted to second. Allanak is a large city which PCs should be able to easily blend into. I'm all for using the virtual world in small areas to enforce some order, but the virtual world in large cities (particularly ones not enmeshed in an information age) should actually produce more chaos. I've come to accept that PCs that see other PCs can recognize them later even with the faintest (or no) interaction. What I don't think is necessary is that VNPCs have this ability.
If someone pickpockets for the first time in the bazaar (i.e., they're not a regular face there) and escapes the area, it's not particularly realistic that NPC soldiers would be hunting them down in the commons across the city. What might be more fun is if PCs with their special "I recognize faces of important people" ability were the only ones that actually hunted criminals across large swaths of the city. You could probably code it so that people could be wanted for crimes in smaller areas, giving each subsection of the city their own wanted flags for instance. If you did this, NPCs would be far less likely to step on PC guard toes and do their job for them.
This is part of the reason I think perma-crime code should outright be removed.
I believe any automated crim-code should just be outright removed, let the PC soldiers/templars sort it out. As a soldier in the past I found the crim code to be super annoying and debilitating to interactions with unruly PCs. Also, threaten loses a lot of it's power as a skill when you toss crim-code into the mix.
Example: Not being able to knock someone around a little bit to get your point across without having the 17 guards one tile away come join in on the beating. So, what would have just been a smack or two to the headpan, becomes death or some time to rot in a cell until someone logs on to release them.
Quote from: Narf on December 03, 2021, 02:05:25 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on November 04, 2021, 12:00:12 PM
1: We only ever enforce 'the virtual world' in a way that promotes order. We never promote the disorder in the virtual world. This also promotes monotony and falling-into-line, instead of randomness and the opportunity to be swept up in things that are entirely unpredictable as far as conflict, action, and explosion. If you're going to use the same old argument that actually really doesn't hold water in any arena other than 'people feel cheated and complain about this', then at least address this. This is boring.
This is a good point I wanted to second. Allanak is a large city which PCs should be able to easily blend into. I'm all for using the virtual world in small areas to enforce some order, but the virtual world in large cities (particularly ones not enmeshed in an information age) should actually produce more chaos. I've come to accept that PCs that see other PCs can recognize them later even with the faintest (or no) interaction. What I don't think is necessary is that VNPCs have this ability.
If someone pickpockets for the first time in the bazaar (i.e., they're not a regular face there) and escapes the area, it's not particularly realistic that NPC soldiers would be hunting them down in the commons across the city. What might be more fun is if PCs with their special "I recognize faces of important people" ability were the only ones that actually hunted criminals across large swaths of the city. You could probably code it so that people could be wanted for crimes in smaller areas, giving each subsection of the city their own wanted flags for instance. If you did this, NPCs would be far less likely to step on PC guard toes and do their job for them.
I entirely agree that it's not realistic that NPC soldiers are of the hivemind and always know who the wanted thief is.
For minor crime, such as theft, it should only alert soldiers that are within a 3-5 room distance from your current location. If you manage to outrun that or those specific NPC soldier(s), you should be in the clear to wander about the rest of the city without having every other soldier chase you down. If the alerted NPC(s) happen to be ones that patrol and comes across you sitting at the bar, it would make sense for it to re-aggro and try and arrest you until you manage to escape (or not escape) again.
For assaults/murders, the crimcode should be region-specific. IE: In Nak, you try and murder gemmers in the gemmed quarter. Until a PC soldier or templar comes around to receive reports from (v)NPCs, you should only ever be crimcoded inside the gemmed quarter. Try and murder someone in the Gaj or Red's Retreat? You'll be wanted in most of the common quarter. Murder in the markets? Wanted in the markets and surrounding streets.
Violent and petty crime should be such common place in a location like Allanak, that to have every soldier have magic-wisdom of who is a criminal is unrealistic and deters shadier characters from being able to do what they do.
I welcome the idea of a crimcode free city, you know, but I guarantee you that it won't make Allanak look busier. If anything, it'll be the opposite.
I've played a long-lived highly violent and criminal PC before. Never once had a problem with the crim-code in the various murders I did in broad daylight in the middle of a crowded area. Never even got hauled to jail. Sometimes I'd be fighting a few guards as well, but it wasn't really a problem for the PC and easily avoidable if you do it right.
That being said, this is a specific form of criminality against the Templarate. Not just some weak pickpocket who is going to die insta if guards fail to subdue. Regardless, I think the crim-code is very easy to get around for basically anyone. Certain tactics/strategies work, some don't.
Quote from: Patuk on December 03, 2021, 04:40:21 PM
I welcome the idea of a crimcode free city, you know, but I guarantee you that it won't make Allanak look busier. If anything, it'll be the opposite.
This is a jest
Allanak already is empty.
"I've played a long-lived highly violent and criminal PC before. Never once had a problem with the crim-code in the various murders I did in broad daylight in the middle of a crowded area. Never even got hauled to jail. Sometimes I'd be fighting a few guards as well, but it wasn't really a problem for the PC and easily avoidable if you do it right.
That being said, this is a specific form of criminality against the Templarate. Not just some weak pickpocket who is going to die insta if guards fail to subdue. Regardless, I think the crim-code is very easy to get around for basically anyone. Certain tactics/strategies work, some don't."
The issue with crime code isn't whether it's easy or hard to avoid, I avoid it literally on the time (On 'brawler' types and 'sneaky climb-y' types). It's that it doesn't let me do my Romeo and Juliet battles in the street or rough someone up without having to flee and hide from the entire city for X hours. In the most brutal city in the known I can't slap someone around on the side street to get a point across without the person I just hit laughing as I haul ass away from soldiers.
Quote from: Jihelu on December 03, 2021, 04:53:31 PM
Quote from: Patuk on December 03, 2021, 04:40:21 PM
I welcome the idea of a crimcode free city, you know, but I guarantee you that it won't make Allanak look busier. If anything, it'll be the opposite.
This is a jest
Allanak already is empty.
Much as I enjoy hyperbole, these are rookie numbers.
Eh, you can use emotes when you don't want to risk the soldier spam-stomp, but one issue with that is that a lot of players suddenly turn into Clint Eastwood and DGAF, even when there's little doubt that if you used the code you'd paste them. Without help. And one hand tied behind your back. You want more entertaining, less code-focused RP, you gotta be willing to play along with it and take your lumps. If you're being given a beating is because we're trying NOT to escalate.
And then of course there's the "you punched me in the face so I'm going to try to backstab you tomorrow" scenario...
Street goes both ways. I do think Templars and militia have more responsibility to use the code judiciously, however. They have the coded backup and power, a lot of options on the table when it comes to dealing with (or ignoring!) crime. The caveat is that criminals have to be willing to play into that corruption and recognize the chances they were handed.
Quote from: The Gruffalo on December 03, 2021, 06:17:21 PM
Eh, you can use emotes when you don't want to risk the soldier spam-stomp, but one issue with that is that a lot of players suddenly turn into Clint Eastwood and DGAF, even when there's little doubt that if you used the code you'd paste them. Without help. And one hand tied behind your back. You want more entertaining, less code-focused RP, you gotta be willing to play along with it and take your lumps. If you're being given a beating is because we're trying NOT to escalate.
And then of course there's the "you punched me in the face so I'm going to try to backstab you tomorrow" scenario...
Street goes both ways. I do think Templars and militia have more responsibility to use the code judiciously, however. They have the coded backup and power, a lot of options on the table when it comes to dealing with (or ignoring!) crime. The caveat is that criminals have to be willing to play into that corruption and recognize the chances they were handed.
I can't emote at someone to make them stay in the room.
If I want to hold someone so I can punch them via subdue, I have to use subdue.
If I emote 'Grabs u u can't get away' I'm not power emoting.
If I emote 'punches ur face' there is nothing preventing the other person from, as its their right as well, just dodging.
I have stats and mechanical advantage for a reason. Otherwise we end up with situations like when an albino 15 year old was emoting doing backflips in the gaj till staff told her to stop.
I'm playing a game that requires like days of real life effort to make the numbers get higher, I'd like to use those.
As a note, the crimcode discussion came about and I don't think it was the end-all solution to 'the Allanak Problem'. I did a post awhile back that is far more along the line of what I think the issue is there, but I'm not going to repeat it because it's the same thing I've criticized for years.
The crimcode discussion is, however, an interesting one insofar as creating a venue of actual interaction and consequence. Not a fear-factor that essentially works as a nearly flawless preventative action towards risk-taking. Not a scheme that rewards you for -always- being the invisible shadow. Something that makes crime and law facets where you are more able to create actual experiences for other players should you so wish, which a lot of people do.
Yes, the crimcode is easy to avoid. But you avoid it in ways that do not promote the criminal/lawman interaction. Yes, you can patrol right now. But chances are the activity will be a useless gesture aside from showing that you do it. This is a lot less about 'crimcode is broken' and a lot more about 'crimcode is stifling', in particular to a facet of Allanak that is ripe with potential for new experiences and excitement and intrigue and all those things both action-oriented and social-oriented players want.
The only downside, and it is a big one for some people, is having to accept that more of that interaction comes through being less safe.
Crime Code is an oppressive OOC blanket. The Blanket is easy to side step and walk around, and it's not even that thick of a blanket, but it gets in the way of me trying to MCB people and have fun.
No, really. People hate criminals. They despise them. They hate them more than the magickers and mindworms around you. I'm all for the crimcode being less strict, but it will make cities have fewer people in the open, not more.
Quote from: Patuk on December 03, 2021, 09:59:04 PM
No, really. People hate criminals. They despise them. They hate them more than the magickers and mindworms around you. I'm all for the crimcode being less strict, but it will make cities have fewer people in the open, not more.
People hate monotony and boredom more than any of it. It's what doesn't just drive people to new areas. It leads to an apathy about the game altogether.
Besides. Historically untrue. You literally had mindbender magicker criminals running rampant killing people in their apartments for a year solid and it was absolutely hopping in that city all the time. You had dominating presences of Guild and Eastsiders at various points in history, and the city was hopping. You had entire eras of people charging into taverns and outright killing people...and that city was hopping. The only thing that's changed from those times is that we became softer, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. We tried to limit bad interactions, and in the process made all of them extremely limited. And by being softer, I don't mean we're a bunch of pillsbury doughboys, I mean that we started trying to accommodate and create safer, more ordered environments.
What you're talking about is people hate being stolen from with no interaction, or hate working hard to get a bunch of materials to find a broken-into house. While those are only going to drive people out of the city if there is a magical wonderland of safety that we provide them, this is also a discussion more based around combatting exactly the 'not fun' parts of the law/crime back and forth. But insofar as you have one harsh place, then places that are less harsh in that aspect without increasing the brutality in some other aspect, yes, you will find migrations to those easier places more common.
I'd prefer most NPC soldiers being bribable. You randomly roll a higher, greedy soldier who wants 300 coins instead of 100 coins. But really, there should be no Serpico's in either Tuluk or Allanak.
Like it or not, we live in an age where characters aren't considered 'real' until you have spent three months of your life playing them. Be they generic fighters or god damn sponsored nobles, you are much less able to find engagement in the current state of the game than you were at that point, and so people are going to play a lot more cautiously to reflect that.
Quote from: Jihelu on December 03, 2021, 04:53:31 PM
The issue with crime code isn't whether it's easy or hard to avoid, I avoid it literally on the time (On 'brawler' types and 'sneaky climb-y' types). It's that it doesn't let me do my Romeo and Juliet battles in the street or rough someone up without having to flee and hide from the entire city for X hours. In the most brutal city in the known I can't slap someone around on the side street to get a point across without the person I just hit laughing as I haul ass away from soldiers.
Can't say I've had this problem. It all depends how you go about things.
Quote from: Void on December 05, 2021, 05:48:59 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on December 03, 2021, 04:53:31 PM
The issue with crime code isn't whether it's easy or hard to avoid, I avoid it literally on the time (On 'brawler' types and 'sneaky climb-y' types). It's that it doesn't let me do my Romeo and Juliet battles in the street or rough someone up without having to flee and hide from the entire city for X hours. In the most brutal city in the known I can't slap someone around on the side street to get a point across without the person I just hit laughing as I haul ass away from soldiers.
Can't say I've had this problem. It all depends how you go about things.
Explain to me how you've managed to engage in HP damage dealing combat in the streets in broad daylight, I'm curious.
Yes, it depends on how you go about things.
That's the problem. I'm outright restricted from doing it the 'brutal Allanaki way'.
A noble can't order his guard to attack a commoner for insulting him without it getting arrested, I've seen it happen and it's hilarious but it shouldn't be happening. Em slap is lame and results in the quasi em 'I'm actually super quick and fast I dodge u and run away' fight.
An elf can't rough someone up on the side of the road without knowing he's chilling on the rooftops for the next day or so unless it just so happens to be nighttime.
I already have issue enough finding people in this game having to wait for it to be dark so I can be a cool alley cat is already more limiting and I'd guess to say it's why 90% of criminal stuff is breaking into your apartment and stealing your furniture.
Hrm. I wonder if no save crime would allow someone to strike you without attracting soldiers?
There has to be a balance unfortunately.
A balance between being brutal in an interesting way and ability to go afk for a lil bit while sitting in Gaj. Or being able to play while at work, not really paying intense attention like when you do in a lawless area.
You say you find it difficult finding other people. Now Imagine people choosing not to login at all, because their attention is too divided to allow their squishy merchant to sit in a tavern with 30% of actual attention.
" Now Imagine people choosing not to login at all, because their attention is too divided to allow their squishy merchant to sit in a tavern with 30% of actual attention."
90% of the game world, AKA: Outside the city walls, is already like this. You don't AFK outside.
Though I don't consider this the same thing. People already get murdered in taverns, we even got blowguns now. And I'm not saying soldiers should stop crime. I'm complaining about crimecode.
Yeeeeah, that's kinda...a bad point to make. I'm not for lawlessness and just constant fighting in Allanak. I think that gets out of hand quickly.
But I will never, ever, not once, be a proponent for 'places you should feel safe'. If you want safety, hire mercenaries. If you want safety, get a noble to hire guards for you. If you want safety, hang around the templar crowd. If you want safety, build a fearsome reputation.
But if you want safety, don't depend on crimcode for it. Don't depend on NPC's for it. Everyone has railed against the clanned-npc gangbang for decades, but we see no problem with it when it's promoting order.
Order should be present. But it should actually be in conflict with something, not suppressing any and all antagonism that could possibly occur within city limits unless by a puppeteer.
im gonna fucking twink up an elf and murder everyone in broad daylight and crimcode wont top me
Quote from: Armaddict on December 05, 2021, 08:39:50 PM
Yeeeeah, that's kinda...a bad point to make. I'm not for lawlessness and just constant fighting in Allanak. I think that gets out of hand quickly.
But I will never, ever, not once, be a proponent for 'places you should feel safe'. If you want safety, hire mercenaries. If you want safety, get a noble to hire guards for you. If you want safety, hang around the templar crowd. If you want safety, build a fearsome reputation.
But if you want safety, don't depend on crimcode for it. Don't depend on NPC's for it. Everyone has railed against the clanned-npc gangbang for decades, but we see no problem with it when it's promoting order.
Order should be present. But it should actually be in conflict with something, not suppressing any and all antagonism that could possibly occur within city limits unless by a puppeteer.
If you want safety, log off.
Quote from: Dar on December 05, 2021, 10:03:26 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on December 05, 2021, 08:39:50 PM
Yeeeeah, that's kinda...a bad point to make. I'm not for lawlessness and just constant fighting in Allanak. I think that gets out of hand quickly.
But I will never, ever, not once, be a proponent for 'places you should feel safe'. If you want safety, hire mercenaries. If you want safety, get a noble to hire guards for you. If you want safety, hang around the templar crowd. If you want safety, build a fearsome reputation.
But if you want safety, don't depend on crimcode for it. Don't depend on NPC's for it. Everyone has railed against the clanned-npc gangbang for decades, but we see no problem with it when it's promoting order.
Order should be present. But it should actually be in conflict with something, not suppressing any and all antagonism that could possibly occur within city limits unless by a puppeteer.
If you want safety, log off.
That's what I'm saying.
ETA: Oh, I see. That's all tongue-in-cheek for 'less people playing'. Having 'safe spaces' where people feel like they shouldn't have to pay attention to the roleplaying game ain't exactly doing wonders now, is it?
Roleplaying and being rapt at attention are two different things. I can't convince you if you think it's the same thing. In the end it's whatever ends up being better for the game.
I don't really play very often, due to irl schedule. But I can say that if I can't feel at least 95% safe during my play while at work, my playtimes will reduce to 2 hours a week.
I don't particularly like the idea of converting the southside of Allanak into a potential combat zone with minimal consequences. If you want that style of play, you can reside in the northside or out in the wastes. I'd be concerned that to change the status quo would lead to many dead merchants, nobles, and aides.
Think you guys are kind of exaggerating. Loosening grips does not equal lawlessness. Modifying so that npc's don't appear out of thin air as a representation of a virtual world that only promotes order does not equal lawlessness. Making 'being a baddy' less than a death wish in the areas where there's people to be bad to is not lawlessness.
When I say no safe spaces, I don't mean people just walk in and slaughter wholesale. I don't mean there is no presence whatsoever.
I mean that danger is always present. Not in terms of paranoid 'look n;look e;look w;look s' that is prevalent in the desert. But in terms of 'If I want to idle, I should probably not idle in this open room where anyone can come and go.' In terms of gameplay, you'd rather that idle person be there. In terms of gameplay, I'd rather that person hire people to make it safer to idle there, or to accept that while 95% of idle time there is uneventful, there isn't really any sort of feeling of security in that events -shouldn't- happen there.
I won't speak for other people suggesting no crimcode or whatnot, because I've already spoken against that as well. But I also speak against this idea that the virtual world should only reinforce safety, instead of challenge it, or in a better case scenario, -stop- automating the virtual world so that players can actually interact with the things that are interactable. If the virtual world needs reinforcement, then it needs to be reinforced robustly with far more variety and grey area than it currently is. And I also speak against the idea that danger is bad for the game because people have to be free to pay little heed to a dangerous world.
And yes, from a jaded vet perspective, 25 people active, plotting, interacting, socializing, killing, hunting, and shopping is a far healthier playerbase status than 40 people online with 15 active, plotting, interacting, socializing, killing, hunting, and shopping and 10 waiting for something to do and 15 idle taking answering machine messages. That isn't to shit on people. Or to say don't log in. But it is to say that danger being present and possible tends to ward off inactivity and stagnation and the 'wait for something to do' phase; you have plenty to watch and prepare for, even if the chance of it is small.
I want to point out something here that I think gets overlooked a lot...
Machine-gun style go-go-go gameplay and whirlwind plotting gets exhausting without occasional interludes.
We NEED the cycle. There have to be breaks in the intensity or it will become completely overwhelming.
If we can't get those quiet interludes without logging out... then we'll just fucking log out.
I'd rather people be in game, even if they're taking a break and being quiet, than not logging in due to burnout.
Y'all can be some judgy motherfuckers. If Amos wants to sit around and focus on character development for a few days and chillax rather than murder, corrupting, and slaughtering his way through the gameworld, what's so wrong with that?
Different gameplay styles. Armageddon used to be great about accommodating all of them.
I feel like there's been a push toward forcing specific preferred gameplay styles, and I'm not a fan.
Let people enjoy the game however they like, as long as they're not being abusive or breaking the core rules of the setting.
Maybe we really do need "seasons" for staff ran plots that can lead to the world-changing ones.
will post bigly and possibly make a thread when I get home on this
Quote from: Delirium on December 06, 2021, 06:28:00 PM
I want to point out something here that I think gets overlooked a lot...
Machine-gun style go-go-go gameplay and whirlwind plotting gets exhausting without occasional interludes.
We NEED the cycle. There have to be breaks in the intensity or it will become completely overwhelming.
If we can't get those quiet interludes without logging out... then we'll just fucking log out.
I'd rather people be in game, even if they're taking a break and being quiet, than not logging in due to burnout.
Y'all can be some judgy motherfuckers. If Amos wants to sit around and focus on character development for a few days and chillax rather than murder, corrupting, and slaughtering his way through the gameworld, what's so wrong with that?
Different gameplay styles. Armageddon used to be great about accommodating all of them.
I feel like there's been a push toward forcing specific preferred gameplay styles, and I'm not a fan.
Let people enjoy the game however they like, as long as they're not being abusive or breaking the core rules of the setting.
This is all well and good. I generally agree. You can hear me talk about this all the time in discord, when people are ranting about good and bad RP, and what people should and shouldn't do in order to be good roleplayers.
But this is an entire thread discussing ideas on how to increase activity in an area. The response of 'just keep it low activity' may be true for some scenarios of needing a slowdown and whatnot, but isn't exactly addressing the original idea, which is how to keep the slowdown from permeating long term.
Quote from: Jihelu on December 05, 2021, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: Void on December 05, 2021, 05:48:59 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on December 03, 2021, 04:53:31 PM
The issue with crime code isn't whether it's easy or hard to avoid, I avoid it literally on the time (On 'brawler' types and 'sneaky climb-y' types). It's that it doesn't let me do my Romeo and Juliet battles in the street or rough someone up without having to flee and hide from the entire city for X hours. In the most brutal city in the known I can't slap someone around on the side street to get a point across without the person I just hit laughing as I haul ass away from soldiers.
Can't say I've had this problem. It all depends how you go about things.
Explain to me how you've managed to engage in HP damage dealing combat in the streets in broad daylight, I'm curious.
Yes, it depends on how you go about things.
That's the problem. I'm outright restricted from doing it the 'brutal Allanaki way'.
A noble can't order his guard to attack a commoner for insulting him without it getting arrested, I've seen it happen and it's hilarious but it shouldn't be happening. Em slap is lame and results in the quasi em 'I'm actually super quick and fast I dodge u and run away' fight.
An elf can't rough someone up on the side of the road without knowing he's chilling on the rooftops for the next day or so unless it just so happens to be nighttime.
I already have issue enough finding people in this game having to wait for it to be dark so I can be a cool alley cat is already more limiting and I'd guess to say it's why 90% of criminal stuff is breaking into your apartment and stealing your furniture.
I've engage in enough HP damage to kill people multiple times. There are several tactics depending on your main guild but I'm not really sure I should be laying out how to PK on the forums.
"I've engage in enough HP damage to kill people multiple times."
Me too, but I highly doubt you are doing this on the side of the road during daylight. And if you are, you're skilled enough to just ignore the guards till the swarm gets too annoying.
Can I join on the peepee measuring contest? Mine is small, but I have twelve of them that I borrowed from all those killings.
Definitely not suggesting keeping it low activity but more suggesting that often, there is a lot of activity.. that just doesn't make it to the bars and general populace for a variety of reasons. We can probably work on fixing those reasons, but it puts even more pressure on those already dealing with activity.
1) Be more visible. Period. Stop worrying so damn much about the pickpockets or cheesy assassins. Just show up.
2) Delegate, delegate, fucking delegate.
4) Remember board posts. No need for details, in fact vague is good. Hint at what's going on so people have plot hooks and things to investigate.
5) Create your own fun, and no I don't mean "purposefully introduce chaos just to get your giggles off", I mean have a goal, a purpose, and something to work toward to fill those downtime hours-- because if you have a goal, you will inevitably meet people who you can either draw into it or conflict with over it.
In many ways people tend to create self-fulfilling prophecies... when there's a downturn in visible activity, instead of creating fun or seeking it out, they go "OH NO THE GAME IS DEAD" and that creates the perception of the game being dead when it isn't and rinse repeat ad nauseam.
Oh yeah and....
The 50 count limit on board posts is painful. Staff is there any way to expand that more?
Oh yeah AND...
STOP BEING SO SECRETIVE OVER THINGS THAT DON'T NEED TO BE SECRETIVE.
Yes some things have to be played close to the vest. But for fuck's sake, give people windows into what's going on and ways to get involved.
Quote from: Delirium on December 08, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
Oh yeah AND...
STOP BEING SO SECRETIVE OVER THINGS THAT DON'T NEED TO BE SECRETIVE.
Yes some things have to be played close to the vest. But for fuck's sake, give people windows into what's going on and ways to get involved.
MOAR GOSSIP yah mooks.
Quote from: Delirium on December 08, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
Definitely not suggesting keeping it low activity but more suggesting that often, there is a lot of activity.. that just doesn't make it to the bars and general populace for a variety of reasons. We can probably work on fixing those reasons, but it puts even more pressure on those already dealing with activity.
1) Be more visible. Period. Stop worrying so damn much about the pickpockets or cheesy assassins. Just show up.
2) Delegate, delegate, fucking delegate.
4) Remember board posts. No need for details, in fact vague is good. Hint at what's going on so people have plot hooks and things to investigate.
5) Create your own fun, and no I don't mean "purposefully introduce chaos just to get your giggles off", I mean have a goal, a purpose, and something to work toward to fill those downtime hours-- because if you have a goal, you will inevitably meet people who you can either draw into it or conflict with over it.
In many ways people tend to create self-fulfilling prophecies... when there's a downturn in visible activity, instead of creating fun or seeking it out, they go "OH NO THE GAME IS DEAD" and that creates the perception of the game being dead when it isn't and rinse repeat ad nauseam.
Oh yeah and....
The 50 count limit on board posts is painful. Staff is there any way to expand that more?
Oh yeah AND...
STOP BEING SO SECRETIVE OVER THINGS THAT DON'T NEED TO BE SECRETIVE.
Yes some things have to be played close to the vest. But for fuck's sake, give people windows into what's going on and ways to get involved.
Lots of good advice. Thanks for sharing it.
PROPOSALS
Remove crimcode, except in the cases of the following:
A nearby soldier witnesses the crime. Implement a system where a nearby soldier can be paid off to move out of the room to the nearest tavern.
OR
A person has been incriminated by a Templar. However, change the incrimination duration for the current 'permanent' incrimination to a period of 3-5 IC years.
Instead, be more loose with doling out NPC thugs to clanned characters. An Agent or Junior Merchant should have 1-2 guards at all times. They should have the choice to bolster their current retinue with PC mercenaries. If a PC mercenary wants to play at guard without being in that clan, they should play ball with joining the Byn, or incur the Byn's wrath for cutting in on their guard contract revenue.
Otherwise, let people rent out NPC thugs, of varying toughness, with a max of three thugs per person. The price of renting a thug should vary based on
1) How many thugs you currently have (up to a max of three)
2) How tough the thugs are
-----
I think with the above proposals implemented, a number of things would be facilitated. Inter-clan conflict. Criminal shenanigans. Actual motivation for making coin beyond earning the privilege of inflicting your Minor Merchant House upon the world. Down and dirty street brawls. The Byn actually having something to goddamn do besides escort people, scout, and kill ten scrabs or the occasional mekillot contract.
Let me get this straight.
There is a feeling that Allanak isn't a fun place to play, and players don't play there..
And the solution is to turn it into a free-for-all murderfest?
Please correct me if I'm not reading the last few pages right.
Quote from: mansa on December 08, 2021, 06:17:14 PM
Let me get this straight.
There is a feeling that Allanak isn't a fun place to play, and players don't play there..
And the solution is to turn it into a free-for-all murderfest?
Please correct me if I'm not reading the last few pages right.
Literally at least 2 posts in the last two pages talking about how this is being blown completely out of proportion into what you just stated. Loosening crimcode to make it fun to play criminals in the place where we have criminal enterprises is not a free for all murderfest.
What Armaddict said.
In 'Totally not Armageddon' there wasn't any crime code and it worked pretty well. Though the population was a lot smaller, proportionally the single town might have as many people as Allanak might.
No: People didn't just kill each other all willy nilly.
Yes: There were ways to prevent people from doing the former even without crime code. I remember seeing two angry mobs in my time, was pretty interesting.
Quote from: Jihelu on December 08, 2021, 06:58:24 PM
What Armaddict said.
In 'Totally not Armageddon' there wasn't any crime code and it worked pretty well. Though the population was a lot smaller, proportionally the single town might have as many people as Allanak might.
No: People didn't just kill each other all willy nilly.
Yes: There were ways to prevent people from doing the former even without crime code. I remember seeing two angry mobs in my time, was pretty interesting.
Mob code sounds great. Targeted at the offender. They run around trying to find them or something.
What amuses me is that. Crime code protects the criminals more then anybody else.
Take it away and in 3-6 months, no more pilferers, miscreants or infiltrators. I mean, not that I would complain. The ones that survive would have to play way smarter then they currently do.
And you think becoming known to pick pockets or that you break into apartments is bad now. Make it so any soldier/fighter/mage/enforcer/raider can rock you anywhere.
Quote from: X-D on December 09, 2021, 11:39:56 PM
What amuses me is that. Crime code protects the criminals more then anybody else.
Take it away and in 3-6 months, no more pilferers, miscreants or infiltrators. I mean, not that I would complain. The ones that survive would have to play way smarter then they currently do.
And you think becoming known to pick pockets or that you break into apartments is bad now. Make it so any soldier/fighter/mage/enforcer/raider can rock you anywhere.
This is unironically what I want and I play almost strictly criminals.
QuoteWhat amuses me is that. Crime code protects the criminals more then anybody else.
In its current state, yes, but that has less to do with crimcode and more to do with training being far more widely available in non-criminal enterprises.
However, this quote is also kind of what's intended. I'm not saying criminals should be able to murder non-criminals more easily...but they should feel a little better about doing -crime-. That doesn't mean consequences go away. That doesn't mean non-criminals won't perform criminal acts. I mean...the whole point is to widen this field and make this dynamic interaction between characters have more content. Not for it to benefit one side more than the other.
Crimcode doesn't just stifle crime. It stifles conflict as a whole. It removes content. It should not go away completely. But it should not be an automated, reliable stranglehold on a major source of all the emotions of the game that come from conflict and danger. Grief. Excitement. Fear. Drive. Anger. Plotting. And it MOST CERTAINLY should not be the one source in the game of automated creation of the virtual world.
I am not arguing against it, I was just pointing something out.
I assure you, if most/any of the suggestions on this subject in this thread went into affect say years ago, I would have had to file at least 80 more PK reports.
Is that a bad thing? I do not know, but I am just warning that it would be the case.
Now, If I was to change crime code. I would limit it to "in sight". Though that might not be what people think. (and this applies to allanak only) If a crime is committed the crime code for your pc is only in the rooms that were in sight of the crime happening. If you manage to get 4 rooms away AND out of line of sight without a soldier chasing you (or angry mob, whatever) Then you are free and clear unless you enter those rooms again before the timer wears off. though I would make that timer longer then it is now. In allanak, it actually does not make sense that the entire city knows your desc and that you are wanted. Not the case in Tuluk of course.
I pondered this for awhile, but Allanak seems to be shallow to me, maybe because of the bluntness creating the shallowness.