Armageddon General Discussion Board

I do not know if this is typical of this MUD, or if it's just my bad luck but even in a Non-Consent environment it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I thought the game was pretty cool, but I will not be returning as this is what I expect is normal for the player base. I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week? That just smells like a big pile of bantha poo.

I'm sure this will be taken as whining, but hopefully it comes across as something more like maybe a small piece of viable advice for trying to retain new players. Caio.

RIP man. I saw what happened.

I hope after the grief wears off, you try again. A similar situation happened to me where I lost 10days played because I 'joined the wrong clan' and got assassinated for it. One prompt. No combat. Just dead.

You were appreciated.

Hey Hanyo,

I'm sorry to see you go.  I have experienced the same thing you have.   Loss of a loved character really sucks, especially if you were just getting into it!

My only advice is to do one of two things:   Get on a new character and explore more of the game, or take a break and reassess what sort of fun you want to have with your spare time.  I like this roleplaying game, and it's incredibly sad when my characters die when they are so young and inexperienced!

Dealing with pk on a perm-death mud is tough. I grew up on a hardcore pk mud so I learned to deal with it early on. I empathize with your response but I would urge you to give the game a few more shots with other types of PCs. I've had hundreds of characters on Arm and at one point would go through a PC once a week or so while learning the ins and outs.

Know why it hurts and breaks your heart? Because the game is great. Especially when it is a dope scene that you are going to remember 10 years later with hate and longing and all of the good shit Arm is about.

Good luck, mate. Hope you play again.

One of the worst feelings you can experience in Armageddon Mud is being obliterated in PvP with no possible chance of winning. It's no consolation but a lot of us have had it happen. I daresay everyone who's stayed here long enough has either gotten the old fashioned apartment gank, gruesome betrayal, or an entire clan gives you the curb stomp. Even worse than that, is being framed for something you didn't do. Been there, done that - as victims for all of them.

Yeah, it sucks.

The tag line on the server is Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal. It's not about dictating your own story. It's a gruesome experience that rarely has happy endings. The same thing that makes it horrifying also makes it one of the most real, and endearing, and meaningful experiences. Because the mantis head (death) can spring up at you from around the corner at any time, each moment and scene is all the more precious. Give it a while and think things over, and maybe, in the mean time, you can come up with an amazing character for your next one.

You survived a week on your first character? Man...I remember back in the day when I first started arm, when there were deathtrap rooms not far from your starting position, and I'm pretty sure my first character died within like 15 minutes of making it. Then I had to wait like 24 hours for a new PC, then I fell in a hole within an hour, got knocked out, then waited forever to wake up, only to find I didn't have climb, so I starved to death in a hole. Then I made another PC and within a couple hours, a magick thing happened that caused me to end up next to a halfling, and I got eaten by a halfling. I remember thinking...wow, it didn't LOOK dangerous...

Things are significantly less dangerous than they were many years ago. We get warnings sometimes about not walking off a cliff now. :)

Hopefully you'll give it another shot. ;)

A week?

Shiite. I've got a 15 year old account and I still struggle to keep a character past a week. Ahem. I mean.

On another note...if I PKed you...come back....join me...jump into the other side of the map with a different character....write a new character up to replace your old that 'doesn't know' about who killed you, and you do your best to not let your IC knowledge overwhelm your brand spanking new characters knowledge.

Welcome to Armageddon.

Totally valid.

I'm the posterchild for newbie

I am still navigating not getting myself killed- and failing. I play too boldly or am in the wrong place at the wrong time. I feel that veteran players are excited to play out a macho scene in their head in the game in real life- or like flexing their power. We're just the best fodder for older characters to make a point.

That being said, when the going get tough, the tough get going.

As a new generation of players, we can change the game world and what is the norms by bringing a fresh take on personality- especially for those of us who lack the knowledge of history in game. Our players most likely don't as well. We can change so much and put play like that out of style. Or not. IDK i'm an optimist.

Quote from: Gentleboy on December 08, 2019, 03:26:58 PMi'm an optimist.

Optimism on Armageddon is daring to step into a new character every time your last one dies no matter HOW it died. 
Everyone's an optimist on Arm.

Alas, Hanyo has not logged into the GDB since making this post, so he's not seen any of our replies.   :'(

They could still read while logged out :) It's not as bad as it could be, the staff obviously have some kind of line drawn to stop it falling into random spam killing or it'd be worse than it is, but at the same time it seems like some people behave like this maybe more than they should (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55215.0.html)
- maybe it could be good if it was made more clear what kind of killing is acceptable and where the line is with regards to rules and RP build-up/valid motivation beyond OOC urges to PK?

I think it'd give more encouragement to people that would try the game and want to make stories and contribute more to the game than wordless game command but might get put off by seeing these kind of stories, people do contribute a lot to some amazing stories in the game but it seems most stay close to the NPC law areas

For all we know, the events leading up to that death were totally legit, and the target intentionally selected and not because the player was new.

Hypothetical (since I don't know anything about the circumstances of the OP's situation):

Someone's been going around robbing apartments. Recently, a favored noble's senior aide's apartment was robbed. Lord Noble tells Lord Templar, who is under pressure for a promotion in the war ministry. So he tells his templar's aide to have the Arm find an elf and bring in his head.  Arm Sargent goes to the Gaj, finds an elf, arrests him, kills him, and brings in his head.

It doesn't matter that this elf did nothing. What matters, is that the templar brought in an elf's head and was able to tell the noble, "We got him!"

Wrong place wrong time is 100% legit.

Again no idea if it happened like this, but there are a LOT of possibilities that make no sense on the surface but make total sense when you peel back the layers.

A lot of this pk stuff lately is a trend of leading pcs showing new players, mid age players how to handle conflict. Arm is only partially about murder and what makes it an RPI is the lead up to said murder. Veteran players need to show newer players how to handle situations without the "Kill anyone you see, kill them all, let's kill so and so for that snotty look...". Replace those with "Lets cut off their profits,  let's make their lives harder,  lets piss in their wine cask." PK plot wise, if not lead up to and contextualized is boring and fruitless. If everyone's dying all the time where is building happening,  or progress to the world,  or motivation. That's my two cents.

I am actually kind of curious as to how many genuinely new players have been gained and retained in the last few years.

Sometimes this game feels like a clubhouse of the same players year after year.

I don't think PK is the problem. Things just aren't fair most of the time. Most PKs that occur are the result of skilled up PCs in one group going after unskilled PCs in another. Or worse 4-5 PCs in one group going after 1 or 2 antagonists to that group. I don't mind the numbers differential it's just a bit disheartening to play against these organizations that are setup from the get-go to be way stronger and to go against it is futile. I don't think anyone finds it very fun to have zero enemies because.. well you killed them all.

Arm always had a low new player retention. Not every person can overcome spending a month on some character and then lose it all in 10 seconds of walking in on a mek.

Those who remain tend to be hard core and awesome.

Hanyo, if you're reading this at all:

You're already doing better than most folks their first go round. My first PC made it maybe 3 hours before falling down a hole and breaking his neck.

Sometimes PK happens in this game. It's a world of conflict big and small. Sometimes, like in real life, PCs get blamed for things that they didn't do, or mistaken for other PCs. And sometimes, if you die for reasons that don't seem apparent or reasonable at all, it's really frustrating.

Anyone that's played Armageddon for a long time will tell you it's okay to take breaks between character losses. I've played for nearly a decade now and I take breaks. But if you stick around, I think you'll find out why folks have been coming back to this game for longer than I've been alive.

First of all. Don't listen to anyone that tells you it's not bullshit. You didn't need to lose your character. The player on the other side of the screen just didn't give a fuck. And that's just something you need to deal with while playing this mud.

Secondly. Surviving in Armageddon is often a compromise between role play and ooc motivated behaviors. You need to check the right boxes, make the right allies, avoid certain areas, elevate your characters to Stepford levels of agreeableness. All of which are honestly suspect if you take a completely in character perspective. Nor would I expect any of these to be evident to a new player.

As an example. The leaders of clans will frequently summon you to their clan compounds so they can trap you and off you ezpz. There's nothing in the documentation that would suggest this is a frequent occurrence. And you would also think that a living breathing world there would be a consequence for this sort of thing. There isn't. And staff don't care. So you as a player just need to adopt the ooc imperative never to visit clan compounds you don't have control over.

This is my cynical take. But I think it's more honest than posts saying "This is Armageddon, death happens sometimes, sorrynotsorry it sucked for you."

EDIT: I should correct myself to say that staff do care. Obviously they wouldn't put so much time into the game if they didn't. My issue is with staff policy that allows for certain types of abuse to occur.

Quote from: tapas on December 10, 2019, 09:16:18 AM
This is my cynical take. But I think it's more honest than posts saying "This is Armageddon, death happens sometimes, sorrynotsorry it sucked for you."

I'm usually the salty one, but I don't recall anyone saying anything like this in this specific thread.

I will say enough that I know what happened. I will not say if it was good, okay, bad, poor play, or judge either side. If you have a problem with what someone has said, call THEM out, not a blanket statement.

Tapas, you don't know what happened from the other player's perspective in the OP's circumstances. I feel that's a disservice to whoever that player is, when you just make an assumption like that. Yes it's absolutely possible. But none of us know. The only person who does know, is the person who did it and possibly the staff. Since the staff chooses not to "out" everyone who does anything wrong to the public, it's not likely they are going to give details to us here.

Secondly, ALL roleplay gaming is a compromise between roleplay and OOC motivated behaviors. Making the right allies, avoiding certain areas, etc- are all part of roleplay. It's a learning curve, a steep one, and it hasn't stopped hundreds of players from playing Arm past their first few characters over the course of the past 20-something years. Dozens of people playing now, have been playing for over a decade. And every single one of them was a clueless newbie when they started out.

Regarding the clan compound deaths: what of it? If you are playing a character involved in city politics and you want someone "quietly out of the way" what better way to do that than to bring them to your turf and handle it quietly? Do you feel every PK needs to be a public execution with jury and trial? Do you feel every PC who has spent weeks raiding and robbing travellers, should be asked consent to a death scene?

In a living breathing world such as the one of Zalanthas, commoners disappear all the time and no one thinks much of it. Such is life in the big bad city. There's a "oh no not another one!" for a few days and the world continues on without them.

Armageddon has rejected Disneyfication. There are plenty of games that have gone the "fair" route. Most of them are defunct, and some of them have become trading card games. The ones that reject disneyfication are few and far between and have a very limited playerbase. But that's because this *type* of game is only attractive to people who embrace the genre. I'd rather keep the genre and have a limited playerbase, than change the genre just for a chance of increasing the playerbase.

Agreed with Lizzie mostly.

Except the bringing a person into the faction HQ for the kill part. I mean you can do it, but only if the actual kill is done by you and the PCs that agreed to help you. Not the NPCs the are coded to auto assist. Staff voiced their opinion numerous times, saying that doing that is considered abuse of AI limitations.

Quote from: Dar on December 10, 2019, 09:45:37 AM
Agreed with Lizzie mostly.

Except the bringing a person into the faction HQ for the kill part. I mean you can do it, but only if the actual kill is done by you and the PCs that agreed to help you. Not the NPCs the are coded to auto assist. Staff voiced their opinion numerous times, saying that doing that is considered abuse of AI limitations.

Oh - definitely. I'm not promoting the idea of leading PCs into NPCs in clan compounds. In fact I'd actually promote the ability for clan leaders to DISABLE the auto-gank flag on NPCs in clan compounds on an as-needed basis for just this purpose. So for example - if I was Jojo Kadius and I wanted Jimbob Salarr dead...

I'd bring Jimbob over for lunch. I'd have my co-clannies (pcs) waiting for him. As soon as MY clannies engage in combat - combat would begin, and the NPCs in the room would back off (since we got it handled). Only if Jimbob attacked me/mine FIRST, would the NPCs come in to assist.

"Hey you don't know all the details. Maybe it's not as shitty as you think."

--Lizzie

"That shitty strategy that is routinely deployed for easy player killing is totally legit."

--Lizzie, literally the same post

Clan compound pkills are complete and utter shit and add nothing to the game. Those that dump PCs from a clan in order to take advantage of them being trapped in the compound are the types of players I will go out of my way to not encounter ever again in the game.

I'mma be real with y'all.

Reading this thread from an outside perspective is legitimately 150% certifiable bananas.

QuoteNew player: "I did not have a fun experience and will not be returning."

Chorus of veteran players: "Oh, young one. You actually had the best experience and just don't realize it. You only feel this way because you were having SO much fun. Come back and have more fun!"

Wtf is this. Like the guy can't determine for himself whether or not his time was well invested and if he enjoyed himself? This is verging on creepy abusive relationship style gaslighting. Silly billy, you don't know what happened to you or how to interpret it. Only I know what happened to you and how to interpret it.

This reminds me of how the show runners reacted to the negative criticism of the last season of GoT, lmao. "The ending wasn't bad, you're just salty because it had to end at all, lalala, I can't hear you."

I didn't interpret the 'chorus of veteran players' the same way as you did at all. If anything, I found the responses to be varied and encouraging.

Example: I'm a new player, and even though the docs said that playing a half-elf would have its own role playing challenges, I chose to do it anyway... (btw, I have no idea if this is even close to what happened, but I'm providing an example here) And I got into the game and it seems like every person I meet is treating me like a piece of garbage and then suddenly I'm set up to be killed for something I didn't do! Just the fact that I chose to play a half elf is enough of a completely valid reason for other players (humans and elves included) to persecute me; players which by the way, if my role play is any good at all, have no way of knowing if I am a new player or not. This sort of situation is the kind that a new player could see as being unwelcome, but it's just the way Armageddon is. And rightly so.

So, to the new player that had a bad experience and doesn't want to return, I wish you would give us another chance. Better luck with your next PC.

Quote from: Alesan on December 09, 2019, 11:17:14 AM
I am actually kind of curious as to how many genuinely new players have been gained and retained in the last few years.

Sometimes this game feels like a clubhouse of the same players year after year.

*raises hand*
Though how long does it have to be to count as retained? :)

Quote from: Night Queen on December 10, 2019, 12:16:47 PM

Quote from: Alesan on December 09, 2019, 11:17:14 AM
I am actually kind of curious as to how many genuinely new players have been gained and retained in the last few years.

Sometimes this game feels like a clubhouse of the same players year after year.

*raises hand*
Though how long does it have to be to count as retained? :)

<3 night queen one of my new favorite newbies

Quote from: tapas on December 10, 2019, 09:16:18 AM
First of all. Don't listen to anyone that tells you it's not bullshit. You didn't need to lose your character. The player on the other side of the screen just didn't give a fuck. And that's just something you need to deal with while playing this mud.

Secondly. Surviving in Armageddon is often a compromise between role play and ooc motivated behaviors. You need to check the right boxes, make the right allies, avoid certain areas, elevate your characters to Stepford levels of agreeableness. All of which are honestly suspect if you take a completely in character perspective. Nor would I expect any of these to be evident to a new player.

As an example. The leaders of clans will frequently summon you to their clan compounds so they can trap you and off you ezpz. There's nothing in the documentation that would suggest this is a frequent occurrence. And you would also think that a living breathing world there would be a consequence for this sort of thing. There isn't. And staff don't care. So you as a player just need to adopt the ooc imperative never to visit clan compounds you don't have control over.

This is my cynical take. But I think it's more honest than posts saying "This is Armageddon, death happens sometimes, sorrynotsorry it sucked for you."

This is a weird and inaccurate take but okay. PK happens in clan compounds but if staff are online there is a 95% chance they're monitoring what's happening and if they're not they require an immediate report. PCs and leaders who exploit clan compounds codedly to instagib people even under IC appropriate circumstances are subject to scrutiny and PCs who use clan compounds to instagib people on flimsier pretexts get in trouble for it.

I'm playing in a clan right now where the docs very expressly prohibit using the clan compound for that with a clear punishment of force storage for PCs who abuse the code.

Quote from: Namino on December 10, 2019, 11:38:31 AM
I'mma be real with y'all.

Reading this thread from an outside perspective is legitimately 150% certifiable bananas.

QuoteNew player: "I did not have a fun experience and will not be returning."

Chorus of veteran players: "Oh, young one. You actually had the best experience and just don't realize it. You only feel this way because you were having SO much fun. Come back and have more fun!"

Wtf is this. Like the guy can't determine for himself whether or not his time was well invested and if he enjoyed himself? This is verging on creepy abusive relationship style gaslighting. Silly billy, you don't know what happened to you or how to interpret it. Only I know what happened to you and how to interpret it.

This reminds me of how the show runners reacted to the negative criticism of the last season of GoT, lmao. "The ending wasn't bad, you're just salty because it had to end at all, lalala, I can't hear you."

Seems weird to me to equate people playing a permedeath MUD who's primary marketing point is that your PC is going to probably die horribly to domestic abuse but okay.

I see veteran players agreeing that losing a PC to dumb PK sucks ass and that they enjoy the game in spite of or sometimes even because of the risk.

Quote from: Hanyo on December 07, 2019, 09:15:23 PM
I do not know if this is typical of this MUD, or if it's just my bad luck but even in a Non-Consent environment it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I thought the game was pretty cool, but I will not be returning as this is what I expect is normal for the player base. I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week? That just smells like a big pile of bantha poo.

I'm sure this will be taken as whining, but hopefully it comes across as something more like maybe a small piece of viable advice for trying to retain new players. Caio.

I don't think this is whining. If you think it was really someone being a dick, you could put in a player complaint and have staff take a look. People aren't supposed to kill people without justification.

Unfortunately, no other players will know how long you've been playing. Though, once while in a leadership role, I told staff my player was going to kill a person for breaking a law, and I was asked to cut them slack because they were new. So I know that staff does actively discourage pks on new people if it's a situation they can intervene in.

All that said, at the end of the day, games are meant to be fun. I'm sorry you didn't have a fun time here, and if you're off to different pastures, I hope you find the game you're looking for!

Holy crap, Tapas. Why are you even playing this game if this is your serious opinion. If I genuinely believed what you believe, I wouldnt play it. Thankfully, I dont. 

The amount of negativity that your posts are brimming with concerns me. And I do believe you're wrong on many accounts. Even the description of Lizzie's post on this very thread. 

You gotta lighten up, dude. Or take a break of the game. I'm not trying to run you off, or something. Far from it. But truly. Any hobby should be pursued only if you're actually enjoying it. I love every hour I get to play Arm as there are not many of those available to me. If all you're getting is stress and anguish, then why are you putting yourself through this?

Hi again,

As a newer player, seeing the responses to this post are both enchanting and disheartening.

I do agree that there's a group of older players who have lived a long time and can deem what characters live and which die. Those characters are able to control the types of personalities we see in the world.

New players are victims to this and it's called a "learning experience". They mess up the lore, misinterperate a rule, etc. it feels like sometimes justice is too harsh and those who are still learning are instead dealt a PK. Then are told to live with it. I think new players should get some kind of feedback on why exactly they died. I think players who kill new players should be asked by staff to write a player report.

Just some thoughts and ideas.

New players aren't all going to like Armageddon. Just like any other game. From my point of view, it was nice to see people come out and talk about their first deaths, and why they stuck around afterward. After I hit a year, I'll have stories of dumb deaths to share, and I look forward to it.

Beyond that, I don't think a veteran player who played for twenty years and who doesn't play but hasn't ever left the chat or forums can count as 'an outsider.' Not just Namino in this instance, but any of them, and there seem to be a dozen or more. Many of whom come up with constructive criticisms, but certainly not as outsiders of the community.

Last thing, though, and an important one: it's a lot more weird and disconcerting to read someone try to compare online opinions of a game with actual domestic abuse, than it is to read about how people like a game and want others to enjoy it.

NM.

You know, I wasn't going to post again.

But here I am.

Firstly, I'm not equating the replies in this thread to an abusive relationship. That's obviously not the case. What I am saying is there's gaslighting going on full force up in this thing and it's really not doing any service to this game.

Let's take a look at what the OP said:

Quote from: Hanyo on December 07, 2019, 09:15:23 PM
[...]it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week?

To paraphrase: I didn't like being killed for non-narrative reasons that seemed contrived, and being treated like a disposable redshirt without any inherent value before I could participate.

Let's look at some of the responses to this:

Quote from: mansa on December 07, 2019, 09:42:02 PM
Loss of a loved character really sucks, especially if you were just getting into it!

Quote from: WarriorPoet on December 07, 2019, 10:37:34 PM
Know why it hurts and breaks your heart? Because the game is great.

That is what I'm referring to. The immediate pivot from a player lodging a complaint to people immediately trying to manipulate the conversation into "oh, you only feel this way because of how GREAT the game is and how much fun you were having!"

No, he felt this way because he was made to feel excluded/picked on as a new player by unforgiving and unreasonable circumstances. He said that in his post. He did not say he was posting because he was totally in love with his character and the loss hurt. That hard attempt to spin this into a symptom of something positive was weird and doesn't do any service to this conversation. Attempting to force-define Hanyo's post as a fit of grief over losing a loved character in order to fit your narrative is absolute gaslighting. And that's what I was referring to.

And Warrior Poet, if you're concerned about Armageddon's reputation with new players right now, there's several other trees you need to bark up before this one. A whole forest.

Quote from: Hanyo on December 07, 2019, 09:15:23 PM
I do not know if this is typical of this MUD, or if it's just my bad luck but even in a Non-Consent environment it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I thought the game was pretty cool, but I will not be returning as this is what I expect is normal for the player base. I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week? That just smells like a big pile of bantha poo.

I'm sure this will be taken as whining, but hopefully it comes across as something more like maybe a small piece of viable advice for trying to retain new players. Caio.

Sorry you had a bad experience or didn't enjoy the circumstance leading up to your character's death.

My first experience went like this:
Rolled up a pickpocket, didn't know what to do, wandered outside the gates on foot -- meet a cloaked figure who asked why my PC was wandering around on foot -- got mugged and dumped at the gates without anything but pants and boots. Then my PC begged for food/water for a couple days. Later on my PC met a leader PC who was kind enough to hire them for something simple and semi-useful. I ended up not continuing to play that PC, but I came back to the game because it was such an impactful experience that I later appreciated.

The game has a lot of cons for new players, but if you find yourself interested to try again with a new PC we're always happy to have you.

I see a lot of people complaining about unfair death in this game. Are you taking those complaints to staff. And do you feel the situation resolves well after you take it to staff? Like, if this is happening so much why are Players not being punished for it? It sounds like it's either a reporting or a staffing issue.

It honestly seems like staff needs to take a hard-line stance on issues that they're normally treating as close enough to borderline to not do anything about.  Players should be afraid enough about PKing someone poorly that they seriously question their own characters motivations for doing it.

Armageddon is a harsh game in a harsh world but it's meant to be fun. If someone is playing like an asshole(that doesn't mean they're playing an asshole) they need to be reprimanded sternly.

I swear there is a large level of PvP occurring. I didn't make a thread but not long ago I literally had a 3 hour PC who knew nobody attacked at random outside the gates and then killed inside after. No emotes at all. If I was a new player I'd legit think this was a hack and slash masquerading as RPI.

Other places are just highly dangerous in general right now and a new player might unintentionally find themselves in the middle of a shitfight. Them being collateral most likely. Not sure what went down with OP but there's definitely some PK horny folks out there right now.

I cannot speak for Hanyo but I will speak for myself in regard to these kinds of PK. Two of my last three characters died at the hands of another player in open combat. The difference between these two deaths is probably pretty useful for illustrating the point I'm trying to make.

The first death was a 50 day played character, branched weaponry skills, blah blah blah. Huge amount of investment. He died when I got into a fight with another character over the course of an OOC week. Multiple engagements, several days between at a time, lots of jawing over the Way. Eventually, I got an unlucky break and died. The mechanics of the death were sort of lame -- massed peraine arrow spam -- but that's more of a lack of developmental balancing rather than a skill not working as intended. I don't fault the player for that. Overall, 8/10. I felt a lot of things after, but they were what the people in this thread described. Sadness, disappointment because I really enjoyed that character. But overall it felt like a narrative death that fit into the choices I made.  8/10, 2 points deducted for the peraine spam. Remade a character immediately.

The second death was a ~35 days played character, branch weaponry again, blah blah blah, large investment. I met the character that killed him on the same day OOC as I died. We had a disagreement about that character wearing some clan restricted gear to the clan my character belonged to, and my character proposed a non-lethal contest to settle the matter. The millisecond we were out of crimcode, he backstab spammed me. I managed to survive that due to my character's significantly higher combat skill. I chased him down later into the wilderness, where I engineered a city-stealth class' worse nightmare. On foot, no mount, dozens of rooms from the nearest city tile, engaged by a much more mobile and better fighter.

What proceeded to happen: He would type backstab, begin approaching and wait for me to engage. The second I engaged with kill or some other, he would spam flee and run out of the room at top speed, back in, and backstab again before my skill/kill delay had cleared. Then he would spam flee. My character did not have the strength stat to do enough damage as he ran out, back in at full speed with no hide between, and backstab me repeatedly from the front due to kill delay. I died in 2, maybe three backstabs. The scene was so egregious that staff themselves encouraged me to submit a complaint against the player, so I did. In the reply to the complaint, the staff told me that what had happened was code not working as it was intended, and that clearly an honor system between players was not sufficient, and that they would change the code to avoid this scenario.

No, they would not resurrect me.

No, the other player would not be punished, as other players informed me he was still springing around dunking people with backstab cheese thereafter.

To this day, the ability to use the backstab skill in this fashion is unchanged, unless there has been a silent alteration. I wouldn't know by testing, as I never played Armageddon again. Unlike the first death, I did not feel satisfied. It was not earned. There was no narrative movement or the sense that I died due to the choices I made. The feelings I felt, like Hanyo felt, was a sense of pointlessness. Why bother playing, investing, caring about a character if it just gets nuked out on the whim without any buildup or sense to it? Even though my first death was a significantly more invested character, it was the second one that stopped me ever wanting to play again.

It wasn't because I 'loved that character more'. It's because it pulled back the curtain and showed me a level of callousness that meant that that huge swaths of my effort could be immediately wiped out by meaningless, pointless BS and that there wasn't going to be any effort put in to change things. Remember, this is the game where a day 0 dwarf spawned in and nuked a dozens of dayed played character with a single blow before being hacked down. No reasonable staffing crew or playerbase would contend that was legitimate. The character should have been instantly resurrected and the whole event retcon. But that didn't happen. Because preserving the "Murdew, corruwption, betwayal!" of the game has somehow translated into a sense that anything that causes players to suffer is justified inherently.

And that's why Hanyo quit. And me too.

If it wasn't an issue there wouldn't be so many open discussions about it here and in the discord. Better lesson teaching options than PK need to be supported.

Quote from: Nile on December 10, 2019, 11:29:37 PM
I swear there is a large level of PvP occurring. I didn't make a thread but not long ago I literally had a 3 hour PC who knew nobody attacked at random outside the gates and then killed inside after. No emotes at all. If I was a new player I'd legit think this was a hack and slash masquerading as RPI.

Other places are just highly dangerous in general right now and a new player might unintentionally find themselves in the middle of a shitfight. Them being collateral most likely. Not sure what went down with OP but there's definitely some PK horny folks out there right now.

This sounds like the kind of thing you should file a report for. I don't mean that condescendingly and maybe it turns out the other PCs thought they were doing something justified but that's the exact kind of situation worth a look from staff.

This is, in large part, why I avoid playing in cities.

There are entirely too many sitting-around-bored types, just looking for someone, anyone, to pursue a vendetta against, even if it's mostly or entirely conjured from absolutely nothing. I really do think that, rather than "allanak" and "byn", both of which I've found extremely unsavory lately, newer players might be directed towards one of the human tribal clans as a suggestion.

My first pc, in fact, was almost my last due to very much the same things as the OP suggests. Luckily I was picked up by some tribal pc and entertained, dragged out of the town setting to the greater world, and later came close to becoming a fringe member of their tribe. It turned my game around. Not just someone OK with a newer player, or dragging them around, or whatever.

It was getting OUT of Allanak for a while, and AWAY from the horridly toxic, meta influences, and the kinds of players who were running things at the time, to see that it doesn't represent the entire game, or everything the game has to offer. It was enough, that, despite my first pc death being highly suspect, I grudgingly rolled another.

A new or newer player does, imo, need someone IC to drag them about by the hand, but doing so in an IC context is not exactly easy, especially for those of us who tend towards the less than savory sort of characters, or lone ranger types. In a tribe setting, where pc counts are tighter in my experience, there will be a greater lean towards spending time with newer players, as well as protecting them from some of the incredibly petty predators that get off on 'easy targets', that typically hang around in Luirs and Allanak.

There is typically no reason for random pc to help or even care about another random pc, but a tribe comes with some out of the box, as soon as you start, players you can generally count on to have your back. And that, imo, is exactly what a new player needs, rather than being dumped into Allanak like a naked baby in the woods, where people will spam steal their coins, bait them out the gate "murder plot", or otherwise, use their inexperience against them for an easy inroad to feeling tough in a fantasy setting.

A new player needs other players in their corner, to learn the game, as well as protect them from 'those' kinds of players.

A tribal setting is the easiest way for this to be a thing, imo, without a lot of ooc concessions and hand waving.

A tribe has its own docs that can be focused on, an excuse for being ignorant to the greater world, and innate ties with other players who have every IC reason to want to teach and protect them. It's also instant inclusion in plots, which is more what, I would think, new players trying the game out, would be looking for.

Something does need to be done to give newer players an opportunity to see more of the game and the enjoyment it can offer BEFORE inevitably getting shit on, and given how thoroughly Allanak reflects the truly disgusting nature of the games ooc culture, segregation would seem, to me, the best choice (since cleaning up said culture, is probably impossible) until they're really understanding of the basics of how the game/world works, and how to manage their characters and have a better chance of being competitive in the larger game world.

If we are not willing to make efforts to better the environment for a new players experience, than maybe, we aren't deserving of new players in the first place.

I actually like Vex's suggestion for new players to start with one of the tribes. Built-in support system. Some caveats though:

Outside the city is harsh, and no matter how awesome other players are to you, the wandering gith NPC won't know or care that you're a new player.

For the rest of the tribe: if you accept the responsibility of bringing new players into the game and helping them understand the game world, it's an actual responsibility. You can of course have fun with it, but it's an added aspect of your role that you might not be prepared or willing to accept.

Sort of how the Byn is known to take on new players, and current leaders of the Byn know and accept this as a responsibility that goes along with the role, on an OOC level.

I don't see any of the above as "problems" or "issues," but rather just some things to consider before deciding whether or not it's a good idea.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 11, 2019, 09:06:49 AM
Outside the city is harsh, and no matter how awesome other players are to you, the wandering gith NPC won't know or care that you're a new player.

For the rest of the tribe: if you accept the responsibility of bringing new players into the game and helping them understand the game world, it's an actual responsibility. You can of course have fun with it, but it's an added aspect of your role that you might not be prepared or willing to accept.

Tbh, most areas where the tribal tent spawns rotate, are a breeze. Typically, no hostile npc presence, unless someone has baited them nearby, with lots of dodge-happy small game for skill grindings, easy access to food and free water... once you know where it is, which is, exactly, what makes having a mentor to follow around such a benefit.

Relative to, say, the Vrun, wherein you have the absolute worst of players churning out grief, muls/dwarves/groups running around looking for, basically, any excuse to kill pcs for the compensate, super aggressive ecosystems and poisons everywhere and in every hand, but where only new players won't have easy access to cures, the Tablelands and Gol are absolutely much more new player friendly, imo.

And, at least imo, nobody is more or less responsible for raising newbies, than anyone else. What makes a tribe superior to the Byn, or Kadius, or any other city-focused clan, is that there is usually documentation and, presumably, staff enforcement of said documents, that reinforce 'tribe is family, tribe comes first, take care of the tribe first before the self', or some variation thereof.

Instead of it being a 'byn sarge is put upon with the burden of the newbies', its 'this is how our clan is' and should, at least in theory, mean the raising and helping of said player, through RP with their pc, is more organic and less an ooc construct to plod through out of a sense of obligation. It is the break in character to "go into newbie help mode", when it isn't necessarily in your character to do so, that becomes tiresome for most, I would think.

If we eliminate the 'I help, because they're new and OOC its a nice thing to do' and replace it with 'I help, because they're my blood and kin', it is less a burden and more an opportunity. An opportunity that, if handled right, will become a real asset to the tribe, translating to more power in the game world, which seems to be what most strive for, one way or the other.

The only issue, I suppose, would be how to ensure whatever tribe the newbies are recommended, is reasonably populated across the time zones. Then again, the Byn, and Allanak, are typically rather dead most of the time, outside of pre-peak, peak, and post-peak, but since we need new players to better population the world and time zones... it is a conundrum, and I have no answer for it.

The beauty of Armageddon is every character you play can have a completely different story, arc, progression, ending. Sometimes BS happens and you have bad luck. I hope OP tries again another day when they are looking for a good permadeath RPI, because that is what Armageddon is. This thread has become a derailment featuring individual grievances which are a bit besides the point.

Quote from: Vex on December 11, 2019, 02:06:19 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 11, 2019, 09:06:49 AM
Outside the city is harsh, and no matter how awesome other players are to you, the wandering gith NPC won't know or care that you're a new player.

For the rest of the tribe: if you accept the responsibility of bringing new players into the game and helping them understand the game world, it's an actual responsibility. You can of course have fun with it, but it's an added aspect of your role that you might not be prepared or willing to accept.

Tbh, most areas where the tribal tent spawns rotate, are a breeze. Typically, no hostile npc presence, unless someone has baited them nearby, with lots of dodge-happy small game for skill grindings, easy access to food and free water... once you know where it is, which is, exactly, what makes having a mentor to follow around such a benefit.

Relative to, say, the Vrun, wherein you have the absolute worst of players churning out grief, muls/dwarves/groups running around looking for, basically, any excuse to kill pcs for the compensate, super aggressive ecosystems and poisons everywhere and in every hand, but where only new players won't have easy access to cures, the Tablelands and Gol are absolutely much more new player friendly, imo.

And, at least imo, nobody is more or less responsible for raising newbies, than anyone else. What makes a tribe superior to the Byn, or Kadius, or any other city-focused clan, is that there is usually documentation and, presumably, staff enforcement of said documents, that reinforce 'tribe is family, tribe comes first, take care of the tribe first before the self', or some variation thereof.

Instead of it being a 'byn sarge is put upon with the burden of the newbies', its 'this is how our clan is' and should, at least in theory, mean the raising and helping of said player, through RP with their pc, is more organic and less an ooc construct to plod through out of a sense of obligation. It is the break in character to "go into newbie help mode", when it isn't necessarily in your character to do so, that becomes tiresome for most, I would think.

If we eliminate the 'I help, because they're new and OOC its a nice thing to do' and replace it with 'I help, because they're my blood and kin', it is less a burden and more an opportunity. An opportunity that, if handled right, will become a real asset to the tribe, translating to more power in the game world, which seems to be what most strive for, one way or the other.

The only issue, I suppose, would be how to ensure whatever tribe the newbies are recommended, is reasonably populated across the time zones. Then again, the Byn, and Allanak, are typically rather dead most of the time, outside of pre-peak, peak, and post-peak, but since we need new players to better population the world and time zones... it is a conundrum, and I have no answer for it.

I wholeheartedly encourage new players to check out tribes but I've played tribals more than anything else and the number of times I've been excited to see a new player join the clan only to find their corpse in a hole or next to a raptor exceeds the number of times a new player has joined and survived long enough for our playtimes to sync up.

I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

I 1000% agree with Vex's post.

Quote from: Hathors Hitman on December 11, 2019, 02:22:04 PM
I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

People who spam walk away while getting being punished bother me so much too. In fact, there was a well know character recently that did it, and BRAGGED about spam walking out.

Quote from: Hathors Hitman on December 11, 2019, 02:22:04 PM
I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

I am not referencing being attacked in your compound. I am referencing PCs with the clan dump command utilizing it before attempting to murder/PK another PC inside the compound of which has shown no aggression and is just going about their business doing their job.

Quote from: kahuna on December 11, 2019, 03:14:37 PM
I am not referencing being attacked in your compound. I am referencing PCs with the clan dump command utilizing it before attempting to murder/PK another PC inside the compound of which has shown no aggression and is just going about their business doing their job.

Alright I just said this thread isn't a catch all for player grievances but I will agree with this, 100%, and having been the victim of this cheap tactic multiple times I will say it it something that has pissed me off.

It pissed me off, it was a weak play by my characters' adversaries, but it didn't make me want to quit.

I am not sure the derailed discussion here is going to produce some solution for the OP. All we can and should do in this thread is empathize with OP, encourage them to come back because they are reacting to one bad experience out of many possible good experiences this game can provide. I am not sure how enumerating bad experiences help.

QuoteFirst of all. Don't listen to anyone that tells you it's not bullshit. You didn't need to lose your character. The player on the other side of the screen just didn't give a fuck. And that's just something you need to deal with while playing this mud.

Secondly. Surviving in Armageddon is often a compromise between role play and ooc motivated behaviors. You need to check the right boxes, make the right allies, avoid certain areas, elevate your characters to Stepford levels of agreeableness. All of which are honestly suspect if you take a completely in character perspective. Nor would I expect any of these to be evident to a new player.

As an example. The leaders of clans will frequently summon you to their clan compounds so they can trap you and off you ezpz. There's nothing in the documentation that would suggest this is a frequent occurrence. And you would also think that a living breathing world there would be a consequence for this sort of thing. There isn't. And staff don't care. So you as a player just need to adopt the ooc imperative never to visit clan compounds you don't have control over.

This is my cynical take. But I think it's more honest than posts saying "This is Armageddon, death happens sometimes, sorrynotsorry it sucked for you."

Yesterday I wrote this post. I'm going to correct myself and say that staff obviously do care. Though I feel that staff policies and a lack of empathy for other players allow for the above frustration, I shouldn't be using anybody as a punching bag.

First up, for the OP: From myself and the staff team at large, we're sorry you have come to view the game and/or your fellow players in such a light. If it is of any comfort, I ran back through the logs over your death and was able to follow a long line of communication regarding it, in the RPing sense. No less than six other PCs were involved, there were various back and forth discussions, a standing backstory for the "group/area" you were in with others that wished said group/people caught/killed for valid IC reasons. There was RP leading up to the point of your PC being found and then the death occurred.

Could the scene have been further RP'd out? Sure. I'll agree with you on that.
Could another punishment have been given out rather than death? I sure would think so on that as well.

I'm not interested in dismissing your view and/or criticism with the initial paragraph. I only add that for further perspective for you, and others in this thread, that a single view point isn't always all encompassing and things aren't as they seem on the surface.

Carrying on from there to address a few more points that stuck out to me in this thread:

Quote from: triste on December 11, 2019, 03:19:48 PM

Quote from: kahuna on December 11, 2019, 03:14:37 PM
I am not referencing being attacked in your compound. I am referencing PCs with the clan dump command utilizing it before attempting to murder/PK another PC inside the compound of which has shown no aggression and is just going about their business doing their job.

Alright I just said this thread isn't a catch all for player grievances but I will agree with this, 100%, and having been the victim of this cheap tactic multiple times I will say it it something that has pissed me off.

It pissed me off, it was a weak play by my characters' adversaries, but it didn't make me want to quit.

I am not sure the derailed discussion here is going to produce some solution for the OP. All we can and should do in this thread is empathize with OP, encourage them to come back because they are reacting to one bad experience out of many possible good experiences this game can provide. I am not sure how enumerating bad experiences help.

Staff have quite clearly spoken to leaders that we find this sort of play and/or behaviour to be disappointing. It's no different than an inescapable apartment kill. If we see it, expect consequences for disrupting business as usual.

Quote from: Hauwke on December 11, 2019, 02:54:05 PM

Quote from: Hathors Hitman on December 11, 2019, 02:22:04 PM
I'm sorry but if you attack me on my Merchant house Agent or merchant in the compound I am dumping you cause there is no way you should escape the compound after that. They have highly trainined guards on each side of the gates.. so if you sneak out it's fuck all unrealistic too.

People who spam walk away while getting being punished bother me so much too. In fact, there was a well know character recently that did it, and BRAGGED about spam walking out.

If someone twinks out of a scene in some fashion that would make zero IC sense, staff are not against receiving a report about it. Options are on the table, ranging anywhere from 1) Finding it not to be a 'twink' escape, 2) Transing them back into the confines they never should have escaped from, 3) Storage/death if terribly over the top. It's an RPI, treat it that way.

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 11, 2019, 01:26:55 AM

Quote from: Nile on December 10, 2019, 11:29:37 PM
I swear there is a large level of PvP occurring. I didn't make a thread but not long ago I literally had a 3 hour PC who knew nobody attacked at random outside the gates and then killed inside after. No emotes at all. If I was a new player I'd legit think this was a hack and slash masquerading as RPI.

Other places are just highly dangerous in general right now and a new player might unintentionally find themselves in the middle of a shitfight. Them being collateral most likely. Not sure what went down with OP but there's definitely some PK horny folks out there right now.

This sounds like the kind of thing you should file a report for. I don't mean that condescendingly and maybe it turns out the other PCs thought they were doing something justified but that's the exact kind of situation worth a look from staff.

Please do. We can't actively monitor everyone.

ETA:

1) On the whole, PKs have been on a downward trend for the past few years.
2) On the whole, new players and those that stick through the initial learning curve have stayed on par for the past few years.
3) On the whole, our peak numbers have risen this year over last.
4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.
5) People who "Don't care." don't spend 10/20/30 hours of their lives each week on a hobby. This goes for players or staff.
6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

I am very much fine with being killed and I think I more often than not submit a kudos request for being PKed nowadays. Thanks for the murder, guys. Keep it up! (if you can). I submit MORE kudos requests to being AWFULLY punished or tortured or interrogated or branded or scarred or other consent-requiring activities. So, keep that in mind, my fellow armaddicts.

Small update:

Decided to try again, and got a REALLY great stats roll, but made myself a little too big and so the concept and background I'd rolled for was suddenly thrown upside down. While that wouldn't be the end of the world it just made me really resentful all over again about my perfectly good character being needlessly ganked! Soooo ... I'm definitely out. I tried once a final time, but the stats were so sup par compared to my first rolls that ALSO really made me resentful.

Some of you were really on point with how I felt (the red shirt comment was fairly on point) and some of you were .... for lack a better term a little condescending (I know the difference between IC / OOC motivations this isn't my first RP experience, nor my first non-consent experience) but I appreciate the relative LACK of (suck it up bitch) or at least that people were nicer about it than I've seen elsewhere. Toodles, I hope you guys enjoy your game.

As for the staff reply .. I never maintained there was no RP just that it wasnt very inclusive and that the 'reasons' I was ganked in fact had nothing to do with me in fact and that that provided a very poor new player experience. If I HAD gone on a needless murder spree I wouldn't have complained you know? I do note that while you've been polite you do try to avoid providing any validation to the fact that I was ganked for something I did not do with no RP on MY end nor any idea why ME except too bad so sad. Remember that new player experience is the onus of you as staff and your veterans. Admittedly not a great endorsement for RP on this mid

Any case I know suiciding is super frowned on so I dont want to keep teyi g when it's not likely to go any better. It's that situation where you had an idea of what you wanted to try and nobody wants to play a char that just leaves the. Resentful or with a sour taste.

Heh. Ironically I like your mentality more then some others. Good luck wherever you go, bud

Personally, I myself quit Arm for about 4 years after a few months of playing my first string of characters. Not for any reason, just IRL things. But personally I found no other mud out there that was remotely as good. Shrug. Good luck, man wherever fate brings us!

I think I really began to enjoy this game when I realized what a joy it is to lose and be bested. I learned this joy only after my first tastes of success:

0.) My first being PKed. My first character! I was a teenager at the time and not ready for this dangerous setting.

1.) My first companionship. My first breed was mentored by...wait for it...a friendly half giant. A basic but darling relationship that I remembered for years. My third PC. Formative.

2.) My first murder plot. It ended badly! But it was a crazy thrill.

3.) My first deeper romance. It creeped me out even more than anything. I was a servant/crafter of a Merchant House and my character got in a romance with her boss, an Agent. I was enthralled but then I got scared by a stockholm syndrome that crept in and I stored.

4.) My first deep regret. Losing a friendship with the legendary Sweet Roll was a tragic turn of a budding friendship.

5.) My first...you get the idea.

With each, I developed more love for the storylines told here. And if it is not already clear, each one of the above was a loss. A loss that was a successful ending to something else. When I learned to enjoy losing, it unlocked a joy that has kept me steadily enjoying this crazy game for years.

S W E E T   R O L L ! ! !

Is anyone else concerned, a little bit, that two back to back characters were "needlessly" ganked?

Even with RP buildup. Even if he applied in the middle of a Shadow War?

I think it is important to note:

Quote from: Hanyo on December 12, 2019, 04:29:00 PM
Remember that new player experience is the onus of you as staff and your veterans. Admittedly not a great endorsement for RP on this mid

While I think he meant MUD, the new player experience isn't enough to "get them in, see if they like it". The onus is on ALL of us. Players to provide the experience, and staff to monitor the experience to make sure it is the 'right one'.

If staff are fine with what happened to this player, fine. If they aren't, I do hope they're talking about how to fix it.

I feel, Riev, that the "needlessly ganked" phrase indicates the new player needs more time to understand the genre and style of the roleplay, if it happened twice in a row. PK is not always done as a "needed" result of a scene. Sometimes a target is selected because a different target would be preferred but not practical, but a target (any target) is needed and that target happens to be available. My elf example as above is just one of dozens of examples that could come to mind.

Also the OP is still focusing on the fact that he's new, as though people are targeting him because he, the player, is a new player to this game. Most of us have no way of knowing if a player is new.  This might very well be happening! But more often than not, it's the perception of the victim's player, and not the intention of the aggressor's player.

As Shabago pointed out, this particular incident DID have roleplay and a backstory behind the event, there were multiple characters involved, the staff was aware of the situation, and it was all done 100% legit. So "need to PK this very one specific character" might or might not have been a factor in the event, but the event was, in fact, handled properly by the people involved.

This is why the "needlessly" aspect concerns me. It makes me feel as though new players are being given the impression that a PK is only legit if it is "needful."

That's why I put it in quotes. I was able to observe one instance, and I am reserving my own judgement, because what I think shouldn't matter.

But if 2 PCs, back to back, were killed.... and they "don't get the game" as has been so lovely suggested... where is the failing? Is there anything we can do, as a community, to help a new player understand WHY they die?

Quote from: Hanyo on December 12, 2019, 04:29:00 PM
Small update:
Decided to try again, and got a REALLY great stats roll, but made myself a little too big and so the concept and background I'd rolled for was suddenly thrown upside down. While that wouldn't be the end of the world it just made me really resentful all over again about my perfectly good character being needlessly ganked! Soooo ... I'm definitely out. I tried once a final time, but the stats were so sup par compared to my first rolls that ALSO really made me resentful.

I feel like I might be misunderstanding. But just in case, I want to tell you that you can actually reroll undo if you're talking about sub par stats on reroll compared to your initial roll.

They only say one PC was PK'd, that I'm seeing in that post. The second one had worse stats, so it discouraged the player. Unless I'm missing the part that says a second PC was PK'd, this is making a problem where there isn't one.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on December 13, 2019, 12:02:12 PM
They only say one PC was PK'd, that I'm seeing in that post. The second one had worse stats, so it discouraged the player. Unless I'm missing the part that says a second PC was PK'd, this is making a problem where there isn't one.

Ah you're right, I re-read it and see the same thing. So no there was only one PK, and the double-punch was just the bad stats on the next PC. Sure it could be discouraging, when I get a "below average" even after a reroll AND reroll undo it's incredibly discouraging. I'm a glutton for punishment and would give it a try anyway but I totally wouldn't ever expect everyone to feel the same way about it.

Quote4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

Quote6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

This is a game where a byn unit found themselves in desert, out of water, and dying of thirst. So they PKed a half elf Runner and drunk his blood to survive. That breed was a total red shirt. He did nothing to provoke his PK.

This is the game where two heartless Nilazies who forgot how to love, have picked an innocent, vibrant, beautiful aide. Kidnapped her, brain washed her that she can bring back her dead lover. Fed on her emotions and lifeblood and when she fell dead as a withered lifeless husk, the nilazies, high on stolen emotions, kanked each other's brains out in the pool of that aides blood.  Total red shirt moment. That aide did nothing to provoke the nilaz.

This is a game where a breed needed to throw suspicion off himself, so he planted a necklace of the woman he killed on a random nobody, then tricked an elf to peek their inventory and report it to a templar. That random nobody died for assassination of a templar aide.  Total red shirt, that guy did nothing, but sat at a bar in the wrong moment and wrong time.

This is a game where a guild leader decides to promote a thug up the rank. So he murders the thugs lover and has the thug deliver her head to her employer as an intimidation tactic for the employer and a loyalty test for the thug. Needless to say the lover had no idea wtf did 'that' come from.

This is a game where a Templar gets bored supervising construction efforts and decides to randomly shoot people with a crossbow, laughing.

Murder, corruption, betrayal.

Quote from: Dar on December 13, 2019, 08:42:08 PM
This is a game where a byn unit found themselves in desert, out of water, and dying of thirst. So they PKed a half elf Runner and drunk his blood to survive. That breed was a total red shirt. He did nothing to provoke his PK.

I was that half-elf. I don't remember his name, but he had some sort of mutant patchwork-skin thing going on. I was bored silly of that endless march, my character was about to drop from dehydration. He was dead either way. I intentionally provoked the Sergeant into killing me. In fact, I attacked her first, after accusing her of being a shitty Sarge, of killing her entire unit.

I was playing a red shirt, but willfully so. It was a throw away character in the Byn, who was fated to die on contract. I only heard about the blood drinking part a year or so later, and I was amused that staff had allowed the rest of the unit to survived by drinking a mutant half-elf's nasty blood. Honestly, as many Byn as there were, and as dehydrated as my character was, drinking his blood should not have allowed them to survive, realistically.

That's an example of a good death that people still talk about years later. I've had other good deaths, that occurred naturally, out of the narrative. For which I was a willing and happy participate in the narrative. I must have died to Lord Templar Samos five or six times. I loved it every time. I remember one glorious death where my rogue magicker was hunted down by an impromptu RPT, with literally 20 other players marshaled around to finish my guy off, after he had made a misstep and exposed himself. Awesome. I had a duel to the death with Gage Gritshaw. Fucking awesome.

There's a difference between stuff like that and the mean-spirited PKs I sometimes see in the game, when other narrative results would have been far more interesting for all parties. But death gets justified as "realistic". As if elves casting fart spells is realistic, in a world where everyone has endless-range telepathy, but are somehow deprived of easy access to information and knowledge.

Or worse, people get into a gamist mode where they don't want rivals to come back at them later, and act as if death is the only solution. I played a criminal who made a point out of letting her rivals live, and it was so much more fun that way. (And it wasn't some rival that got her in the end, but an NPC.)

PKing in permadeath game needs to have some buy-in from the person losing the character, or else the most important person in the process is getting shafted.

QuoteThis is a game where a guild leader decides to promote a thug up the rank. So he murders the thugs lover and has the thug deliver her head to her employer as an intimidation tactic for the employer and a loyalty test for the thug. Needless to say the lover had no idea wtf did 'that' come from.

Boring for the lover, and they lost a character. Shitty result.

Quote from: Gentleboy on December 10, 2019, 05:19:10 PM
Hi again,

As a newer player, seeing the responses to this post are both enchanting and disheartening.

I do agree that there's a group of older players who have lived a long time and can deem what characters live and which die. Those characters are able to control the types of personalities we see in the world.

New players are victims to this and it's called a "learning experience". They mess up the lore, misinterperate a rule, etc. it feels like sometimes justice is too harsh and those who are still learning are instead dealt a PK. Then are told to live with it. I think new players should get some kind of feedback on why exactly they died. I think players who kill new players should be asked by staff to write a player report.

Just some thoughts and ideas.

Hey man.  Enjoy yourself, don't take anything on the GDB too seriously.  In the end, -most- of the people talking on here just wing it with our immediate responses to things, and while there are longtime players who get quite good at reaching goals, sometimes those goals have nothing to do with you.  The 'player power structure' is actually kind of a cycling thing with ebbs and flows, and it ends with their characters just as much and they rebuild from scratch.

Sometimes we don't really convey the experience of the game that well to newer players, it's a big shortcoming.  But long-term players die as well, they get pk'd as well, and the stories keep unfolding.  Foster that desire to tell a character's story, mix it with the character's drive to self-preservation, and you'll be kickin' the game in the nuts with cool stuff in no time.

Quote from: Armaddict on December 13, 2019, 09:47:44 PM

Quote from: Gentleboy on December 10, 2019, 05:19:10 PM
Hi again,

As a newer player, seeing the responses to this post are both enchanting and disheartening.

I do agree that there's a group of older players who have lived a long time and can deem what characters live and which die. Those characters are able to control the types of personalities we see in the world.

New players are victims to this and it's called a "learning experience". They mess up the lore, misinterperate a rule, etc. it feels like sometimes justice is too harsh and those who are still learning are instead dealt a PK. Then are told to live with it. I think new players should get some kind of feedback on why exactly they died. I think players who kill new players should be asked by staff to write a player report.

Just some thoughts and ideas.

Hey man.  Enjoy yourself, don't take anything on the GDB too seriously.  In the end, -most- of the people talking on here just wing it with our immediate responses to things, and while there are longtime players who get quite good at reaching goals, sometimes those goals have nothing to do with you.  The 'player power structure' is actually kind of a cycling thing with ebbs and flows, and it ends with their characters just as much and they rebuild from scratch.

Sometimes we don't really convey the experience of the game that well to newer players, it's a big shortcoming.  But long-term players die as well, they get pk'd as well, and the stories keep unfolding.  Foster that desire to tell a character's story, mix it with the character's drive to self-preservation, and you'll be kickin' the game in the nuts with cool stuff in no time.

True dat!

Quote from: tapas on December 13, 2019, 07:41:20 PM

Quote4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

Quote6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

All out of tinfoil.

Quote from: Shabago on December 14, 2019, 01:47:29 AM

Quote from: tapas on December 13, 2019, 07:41:20 PM

Quote4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

Quote6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

All out of tinfoil.

It's got nothing to do with tinfoil.

The reality of playing Armageddon is that you need to actively identify and dodge shitty pk. Part of it has to do with staff policy that allows for some of the shittiness.

I'd love to play the game in a way that focuses on story. Too fucking bad for me that I can't.

Quote from: tapas on December 14, 2019, 03:48:10 AM

Quote from: Shabago on December 14, 2019, 01:47:29 AM

Quote from: tapas on December 13, 2019, 07:41:20 PM

Quote4) Players suggesting staff do not care, especially those in this very thread who have actively participated in such "lame" PKs and been punished for it really need to look in the mirror.

Pfft. What?

Quote6) There is no winning in this game, and that is the vibe I continue to see in some, not all, of these threads. No, you shouldn't consider being alive X amount of time as some achievement that grants you immunity or deserving of a better outcome then that noobie who has played five days. In an RPI, the story you tell of your own character to others, and how you interact with their stories in turn, is where the enjoyment is - not the "I win" button kills.

Players wouldn't pull out the cheap player kills if the game wasn't about winning or losing. And staff wouldn't continue to run interference for these sorts of PKs if the game wasn't in some way about it.

All out of tinfoil.

It's got nothing to do with tinfoil.

The reality of playing Armageddon is that you need to actively identify and dodge shitty pk. Part of it has to do with staff policy that allows for some of the shittiness.

I'd love to play the game in a way that focuses on story. Too fucking bad for me that I can't.

I did. For 18 years.  And I  got pk'ed, all the time. Death is part of what makes this game great, that includes PK. Getting pk'ed never stopped me playing for the story, why it's a deterrent for others is personal choice.

And don't tell me about lame PK. Twice I've been PK'ed while AFK and in the last one of those not only was I PK'ed but the player of the murderer ASKED ME OOC'ly if I was ever going to be outside AND one of those involved was a STAFF nilazi... so ... yeah... some pk's are ooc'ly lame, some ic'ly lame. It takes a while to grow into the Armageddon mindset.

Maybe expressing that this is a permadeath pk heavy mud on the descriptor would help.

It isn't a "pk-heavy" permadeath mud. That would imply that your character is guaranteed to have a short life because people are running around treating each others characters like NPC mobs. That just flat out isn't true.

MOST roleplay in Armageddon does NOT involve intentionally killing other characters. Most of it is crafters, aides, political folks, low-ranking grunts of clans, independent traders, would-be master thieves - people who would rather do something other than spend their time killing people.

There are a cluster of character (not players - this isn't about players) who are roleplayed as merciless violent people. They are not the majority, they're not even a large minority. It's a small cluster.

Two people killing 10 PCs out of over 150 uniquely-identified login accounts in a RL month's time is not "PK-heavy." If it were 10 people killing those same 10 PCs in a real month's time, THAT would be PK heavy, because that would be 10 different people out of 150 interested in killing PCs, as opposed to 2 people out of 150 killing PCs.

PK is part of the game. It is not required, and it is not usually immediate. Some players who have played their FIRST character in the game, managed to live a decent amount of real-time before they were killed off.  My first character on my old account was around for something like 4 months before she was finally killed by her mob boss. My first character on my other account lived a few months before I finally stored her. No PK at all for her.

The documentation that already exists is clear: this game has a learning curve, it includes PK, it is permadeath, and it is roleplay. The docs also recommend that you read the docs, and there's a walk-through, a "what to know about" section, a "so you're new..." (which you and I both wrote together, if you recall).

There are resources galore for new players. The problem is, we can't force new players to read them. That is exactly the problem, as I see it.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 14, 2019, 09:22:16 AM
It isn't a "pk-heavy" permadeath mud. That would imply that your character is guaranteed to have a short life because people are running around treating each others characters like NPC mobs. That just flat out isn't true.

MOST roleplay in Armageddon does NOT involve intentionally killing other characters. Most of it is crafters, aides, political folks, low-ranking grunts of clans, independent traders, would-be master thieves - people who would rather do something other than spend their time killing people.

There are a cluster of character (not players - this isn't about players) who are roleplayed as merciless violent people. They are not the majority, they're not even a large minority. It's a small cluster.

Two people killing 10 PCs out of over 150 uniquely-identified login accounts in a RL month's time is not "PK-heavy." If it were 10 people killing those same 10 PCs in a real month's time, THAT would be PK heavy, because that would be 10 different people out of 150 interested in killing PCs, as opposed to 2 people out of 150 killing PCs.

PK is part of the game. It is not required, and it is not usually immediate. Some players who have played their FIRST character in the game, managed to live a decent amount of real-time before they were killed off.  My first character on my old account was around for something like 4 months before she was finally killed by her mob boss. My first character on my other account lived a few months before I finally stored her. No PK at all for her.

The documentation that already exists is clear: this game has a learning curve, it includes PK, it is permadeath, and it is roleplay. The docs also recommend that you read the docs, and there's a walk-through, a "what to know about" section, a "so you're new..." (which you and I both wrote together, if you recall).

There are resources galore for new players. The problem is, we can't force new players to read them. That is exactly the problem, as I see it.

I don't associate "pk heavy" with anything close to a  guaranteed short life and I certainly don't add the connotation that it's because people are running around treating each others characters like they're NPC mobs.


I'd be interested in what the ratio is between PK deaths, mob deaths, and code deaths like falls and starvation just to see if PK is the most prevalent way to die when NOT an RPT.

I still chuck things like this up to natural selection.

Quote from: ShaLeah on December 14, 2019, 10:53:18 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 14, 2019, 09:22:16 AM
It isn't a "pk-heavy" permadeath mud. That would imply that your character is guaranteed to have a short life because people are running around treating each others characters like NPC mobs. That just flat out isn't true.

MOST roleplay in Armageddon does NOT involve intentionally killing other characters. Most of it is crafters, aides, political folks, low-ranking grunts of clans, independent traders, would-be master thieves - people who would rather do something other than spend their time killing people.

There are a cluster of character (not players - this isn't about players) who are roleplayed as merciless violent people. They are not the majority, they're not even a large minority. It's a small cluster.

Two people killing 10 PCs out of over 150 uniquely-identified login accounts in a RL month's time is not "PK-heavy." If it were 10 people killing those same 10 PCs in a real month's time, THAT would be PK heavy, because that would be 10 different people out of 150 interested in killing PCs, as opposed to 2 people out of 150 killing PCs.

PK is part of the game. It is not required, and it is not usually immediate. Some players who have played their FIRST character in the game, managed to live a decent amount of real-time before they were killed off.  My first character on my old account was around for something like 4 months before she was finally killed by her mob boss. My first character on my other account lived a few months before I finally stored her. No PK at all for her.

The documentation that already exists is clear: this game has a learning curve, it includes PK, it is permadeath, and it is roleplay. The docs also recommend that you read the docs, and there's a walk-through, a "what to know about" section, a "so you're new..." (which you and I both wrote together, if you recall).

There are resources galore for new players. The problem is, we can't force new players to read them. That is exactly the problem, as I see it.

I don't associate "pk heavy" with anything close to a  guaranteed short life and I certainly don't add the connotation that it's because people are running around treating each others characters like they're NPC mobs.


I'd be interested in what the ratio is between PK deaths, mob deaths, and code deaths like falls and starvation just to see if PK is the most prevalent way to die when NOT an RPT.

I still chuck things like this up to natural selection.

Using the filters of "created" in 2019, alive or dead, mortal PCs = 1617 entries over the 12 months.
Using the filter of "PK report" in 2019 = 87.

Percent of PK versus Mob death, suicide, storage, or any other fashion = 0.5 percent.

Shabago:
What is the data for the trend over the years?

How many PKs go unreported? I assume you have a way of tracking them besides PK reports, or at least notice "hey this many a month usually go unreported".

If it's really that low and has always been that low... wow. I am a large chunk of that on my own. I get PK'd all the time.

Quote from: ShaLeah on December 14, 2019, 10:53:18 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 14, 2019, 09:22:16 AM
It isn't a "pk-heavy" permadeath mud. That would imply that your character is guaranteed to have a short life because people are running around treating each others characters like NPC mobs. That just flat out isn't true. [snip]

I don't associate "pk heavy" with anything close to a  guaranteed short life and I certainly don't add the connotation that it's because people are running around treating each others characters like they're NPC mobs.

But most of the mudding world does associate "PK heavy" or "a PK game" with a guaranteed short life, and they associate it with characters running around treating each other like NPC mobs. Granted most PK games or PK-heavy games also have resurrections or some element of non-permanence to death. The notion of PK-heavy combined with permanent death would be a turn-off to anyone in the gaming world who knows what the rest of the gaming world means when they refer to PK heavy or PK game. Especially when they see that not only is this pk-heavy and permanent, but you have to submit a character application for every single character. And Armageddon is not one of those other games that ARE considered (by the gaming world at large) pk-heavy or pk games, and truly I don't feel this is the right impression we should be making on potential new players.

Quote from: Is Friday on December 14, 2019, 11:29:21 AM
Shabago:
What is the data for the trend over the years?

How many PKs go unreported? I assume you have a way of tracking them besides PK reports, or at least notice "hey this many a month usually go unreported".

If it's really that low and has always been that low... wow. I am a large chunk of that on my own. I get PK'd all the time.

Even if you were to double it to account for unreported PKs, that's still only 1% total.

Maybe there's some way to filter out deaths via the code. Like...

IF all player-character numbers fall within the range of 12450 and 29000. You could ask the code:

How many characters have been killed by any number falling between 12450 and 29000? We know already that a record of "who" killed someone is recorded, because when you get your character notes, you can see "Lizzie was killed by [and there's usually a blank here, or an sdesc], amen."

Whatever data is recorded by the game in order to issue that line of text, should be able to be collected and sorted.

Quote from: Is Friday on December 14, 2019, 11:29:21 AM
Shabago:
What is the data for the trend over the years?

How many PKs go unreported? I assume you have a way of tracking them besides PK reports, or at least notice "hey this many a month usually go unreported".

If it's really that low and has always been that low... wow. I am a large chunk of that on my own. I get PK'd all the time.

There's not an easy way to pull the data but even if you generously assume that there are three times as many PKs as are reported you're getting percentage points, like Lizzie said.

If they have no way of enforcing PK reporting, since they can't pull data on PKs directly from the server, I think it's very generous to assume that only a small handful of PKs go unreported.

Since it seems like the majority of PKs are done by a minority of players, it's entirely possible that those players virtually never file PK reports. That could theoretically make the percentage of unreported PKs 99%, which would make the number of PC deaths to PK instead of Environment(meks, dehydration, falls, etc), up to 100%.

We know that's not the case, but a case could be made for anything between .5% and 99% without that crucial piece of data, so any further speculation is just guesswork.

Example:

RP guy 1 never PKs anyone. = 0 PK reports.
RP gal 1 PKs 2 people          = 2 PK reports.
RP guy2    PKs 2 people       = 2 PK reports.
RP gal 1 PKs 1 person          = 1 PK report.
PK guy 1 PKs 37 people       = 0 PK reports.

If only these 5 people PKed at all, but the one who PKs the most never submits reports unless prompted by staff(and even maybe not then), then despite 80% of the people who PK submitting reports, 88% of PKs would still go unreported.

The idea that this may be happening isn't pure conjecture. In other threads regarding PK, certain players who PK a LOT have said that they feel like PK reports are too burdensome to worry about having to file. I would assume this is because they PK so often that it'd feel like they were constantly doing paperwork.

Not much paperwork.

Killed this dude for this reason.

KTHXBYE

Every now and again staff will ask for more info...but that is rare.

QuoteThe idea that this may be happening isn't pure conjecture. In other threads regarding PK, certain players who PK a LOT have said that they feel like PK reports are too burdensome to worry about having to file. I would assume this is because they PK so often that it'd feel like they were constantly doing paperwork.

I think you may drastically overestimate how often those people PK.

Quote from: Shabago on December 14, 2019, 11:26:28 AM

Quote from: ShaLeah on December 14, 2019, 10:53:18 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 14, 2019, 09:22:16 AM
It isn't a "pk-heavy" permadeath mud. That would imply that your character is guaranteed to have a short life because people are running around treating each others characters like NPC mobs. That just flat out isn't true.

MOST roleplay in Armageddon does NOT involve intentionally killing other characters. Most of it is crafters, aides, political folks, low-ranking grunts of clans, independent traders, would-be master thieves - people who would rather do something other than spend their time killing people.

There are a cluster of character (not players - this isn't about players) who are roleplayed as merciless violent people. They are not the majority, they're not even a large minority. It's a small cluster.

Two people killing 10 PCs out of over 150 uniquely-identified login accounts in a RL month's time is not "PK-heavy." If it were 10 people killing those same 10 PCs in a real month's time, THAT would be PK heavy, because that would be 10 different people out of 150 interested in killing PCs, as opposed to 2 people out of 150 killing PCs.

PK is part of the game. It is not required, and it is not usually immediate. Some players who have played their FIRST character in the game, managed to live a decent amount of real-time before they were killed off.  My first character on my old account was around for something like 4 months before she was finally killed by her mob boss. My first character on my other account lived a few months before I finally stored her. No PK at all for her.

The documentation that already exists is clear: this game has a learning curve, it includes PK, it is permadeath, and it is roleplay. The docs also recommend that you read the docs, and there's a walk-through, a "what to know about" section, a "so you're new..." (which you and I both wrote together, if you recall).

There are resources galore for new players. The problem is, we can't force new players to read them. That is exactly the problem, as I see it.

I don't associate "pk heavy" with anything close to a  guaranteed short life and I certainly don't add the connotation that it's because people are running around treating each others characters like they're NPC mobs.


I'd be interested in what the ratio is between PK deaths, mob deaths, and code deaths like falls and starvation just to see if PK is the most prevalent way to die when NOT an RPT.

I still chuck things like this up to natural selection.

Using the filters of "created" in 2019, alive or dead, mortal PCs = 1617 entries over the 12 months.
Using the filter of "PK report" in 2019 = 87.

Percent of PK versus Mob death, suicide, storage, or any other fashion = 0.5 percent.

Is that all? Why not use killed by man/woman/immortal fury?

The way some voice concerns about pk I expected way more.

Definitely not PK heavy. New genre of MUD - RPIPKI
PK inevitable

Shaleah if by "some" voicing concerns about PK you mean me, then the response to that is no. I don't voice concerns about PK. I voice concerns about HOW the PKs occurred, and even then only once in awhile. I've had a pretty significant chunk of my characters killed by other characters. In MOST cases, I'm glad they were killed in a scene rather than by a random critter-mob or due to storage. I've said that time and again, my opinion hasn't changed.

For me, in my mind when I'm playing the game, the theme of the game is "How will you measure the quality of your next character's death?" and not "Murder Corruption Betrayal."

Really, the state of pvp is fine, other than, there isn't nearly as much as there should be compared to the volume of "friends with everyone, despite race/culture" pcs who live, for bloody ever. I'll concede, yes, some pk are rather spiritless, but life is full of many inconsequential disappointments. C'est la vie.

As stat inequities have been raised by op, perhaps, then, its time to look at a less "Vegas style" system. A point allocation system would, overall, eliminate stats as a complaint, if every pc race has an equal pre-set baseline, and say, 10 points, to place, as they see fit.

A human starts with: 10 str, 10 agi, 10 wis, 10 end.

A half-elf starts with 9 str, 11 agi, 10 wis, 10 end.

A city elf starts with 7 str, 12 agi, 12 wis, 9 end.

A dwarf starts with 11 str, 9 agi, 9 wis, 11 end.

+10 points to spend, to best customize that pc, to suit the needs of the players ambitions for the pc.

With proper stat caps per race, that REVOKE being able to raise a stat beyond exceptional, we eliminate the 'super hero' pc who happens to get 130 hp, exceptional stats across the board, as well as eliminate 'my pc is utter garbage, with no hope of success at its ambition or coded relevance'. We would also, as such, make ourselves more appealing to cross game players, who have become accustomed to a higher standard of customization, found elsewhere.

As I do not know the exact system of points in use, so this is a generalization, rather than a hard suggestion, of course, and not to be taking as literally suggested numbers. I just imagine a system were 'good' is actually GOOD, and 'exceptional' is truly exceptional, as it would come at the cost of being relatively average at everything else. No more ultra strong, impossible fast, incredibly enduring, intelligent supermans.

No more need, for people to 'suicide' until good stats come up, either. Every pc, every time, has the same potential, with total player freedom to direct it. It is, imo, the best of situations.

I might further suggest that the BASE MINIMUM for HP, be set to 100, across all races. I'm less concerned about the peak of HP, but seeing a pc with hp in the 80's, is extremely disheartening, and even 90s rears the very real, very ugly threat, of one climb fail ending you instantly, and within "one shot" range of popular kill skills. Or two or three hits, from the resident "grind spiders erry day" (zero karma still...) dwarf.

I might also address the age vs stats inequities, as being younger is such a severe disadvantage, that a new player rolling up a teenager, is setting themselves up for a fail. Yes, there is a 'warning', but warning people away from what might be their typical preference for a character RP, does not benefit us in any conceivable way. Better, I think, to lessen the 'disadvantage vs advantage' of 'younger vs middle age', making it more of a nuance, rather than a hugely glaring divide.

Enabling a viable experience, across a broader range of concepts and and preferences, with a more level field of engagement (stats, race, etcs etcs), is to our advantage. Gaming has advanced to such a degree, that customization isn't a feature, but an standard. I recently fired up the latest mechwarrior game, and what hit me first and foremost, was that I had no option to choose gender, or even a name, nevermind an avatar. It's a rather sour start, to an otherwise fun distraction. Customization is what we expect, in everything in our current way of life. It's not something to shy away from, but pursue, as it only leads to a more agreeable first impression, and a more satisfying long term experience.

Eh. To gauge the prevalence of PKing, you'd have to look much more closely than just "chars created vs PKs reported." For one thing, you'd need to find out how many of those chars actually went on to be played to any appreciable extent. There's somewhere around 30-50ish new chars made every week, and it's no secret that most of those never become established enough to even be in a position to get PKed. Some are new accounts that submit an app and never return. Some roll all below average stats and end up in the silt sea after two hours. Many get eaten by animals before anyone even interacts with them. Many get stored. I'd be more interested in a statistic along the lines of PCs with 3d+ of playtime dying at the hands of another PC. Not created vs reported but actually played vs PKed. Anything else will get buried under the plurality of chars that are created but never played for real, and the many kills that go unreported.

My observation has been that when chars get PKed these days, it's often for little reason. Can't tell if PKing is more or less common now than it used to be, but I see more of it that comes from some player's apparent desire to PK and less that comes from things like rivalries, hired assassinations and actual PvP battles. When I've been on the receiving end in recent years, there has been a lot more of the kind that made me go "why the hell did someone do that?" and a lot less that made me go "ah, they finally got me." In the last five years, I've had something like a dozen instances of some stranger just riding up to me and attacking without a word or emote. In the five years before that, I think it happened once.

Vex.

"And when everybody is special, nobody is."

Bad enough we have that with classes being homogenized into blandness.

I for one like the chance at a godly stat PC as well as the chance for crap but mostly ending up in between. Hell, the only time I have ordered stats is when the stats really did not matter...so, like once...possibly two times.

It is too bad the OP found that lower stats was a deal breaker for the entire game...I would say that says something about them not the mud.

Quote from: X-D on December 15, 2019, 04:43:01 PM
Vex.

"And when everybody is special, nobody is."

Bad enough we have that with classes being homogenized into blandness.

I for one like the chance at a godly stat PC as well as the chance for crap but mostly ending up in between. Hell, the only time I have ordered stats is when the stats really did not matter...so, like once...possibly two times.

It is too bad the OP found that lower stats was a deal breaker for the entire game...I would say that says something about them not the mud.

What does it say about them?

Quote from: X-D on December 15, 2019, 04:43:01 PM
It is too bad the OP found that lower stats was a deal breaker for the entire game...I would say that says something about them not the mud.

The new player who, deciding against their own better judgement to try us on again after a souring first impression, ends up disappointed before they're even into the game, by a random factor beyond their control, which can effectively neuter a character concept on a permanent basis in a game ruled by the law of code, must be to blame for it, yes?

Let's shine the negative light of suggested blame on them, and wash our hands of the burden that is acknowledging a potential point of failure, in our ability to raise our numbers.

Each thing you do to "raise numbers" Has the same chance to lower them.

Secondly, How bad were the stats? We do not know of course, If they were horrid, like all poor then one should contact staff on the matter, they have felt pity for people before. Or, if what you are looking for really is a RPI and your first reason to leave is because you did not see the RP of a PK, then you would think such a person would be less code focused and would roll with it. I'd be willing to bet that the stats on the second PC were quite serviceable and likely no worse then what you would normally get in a point buy system.

Now I am all for gaining and retaining new players, I help newbies a LOT, I generally do not target them for bad things unless really asking for it. But this person seems that they want the game to be catered to them and rather unwilling to roll with the punches. So excuse me if I have a lack of empathy. This person in my opinion did not try, things did not go his/her way two times and they quit...and the worst part is, it seems, up till the PK things had been going their way.

I have never had a PC neutered by stats BTW, I had one I was unwilling to play, yes. But normally I play them, and hell, last couple had quite sub par stats and one lasted more then 20 days played, got his share of PKs and died to my own mess up...other has even worse stats and still truckin....so...yeah.

Though, I do wish they would have stuck around anyway, maybe find a mentor or some helpers...from what I see, people who do one or both of those tend to stick.

Hey man, I dont know what happened for sure, but it makes me sad to see you go. Pretty sure you won't read this, but here are my two cents.

Don't let one negative experience in a subject deter you from doing something you enjoy. Bad and good experiences will be had. Other people will be dicks and fuck up, you'll be a dick and fuck up, its how things go. Some people learn from it, some don't. But if you truly have fun doing something, and you like the gameplay, give it another shot :) Whilst its easy to let one bad experience tarnish your opinion of something, its much more worth it to keep trying until it works if its something that has the great potential to bring you joy.

Quote from: X-D on December 15, 2019, 06:26:12 PM
Each thing you do to "raise numbers" Has the same chance to lower them.

That's a ridiculous statement.

You made assumptions of the OPs character, you made assumptions on a staff response to a hypothetical situation and essentially spend the rest of your words boasting about your supposed merits, with a side of amateurish waxing philosophical. At no point have your responses amounted to more than, "I like it how it is."

Next time, just say so, without the Qwerty imitation.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 15, 2019, 09:46:33 AM
Shaleah if by "some" voicing concerns about PK you mean me, then the response to that is no. I don't voice concerns about PK. I voice concerns about HOW the PKs occurred, and even then only once in awhile. I've had a pretty significant chunk of my characters killed by other characters. In MOST cases, I'm glad they were killed in a scene rather than by a random critter-mob or due to storage. I've said that time and again, my opinion hasn't changed.

For me, in my mind when I'm playing the game, the theme of the game is "How will you measure the quality of your next character's death?" and not "Murder Corruption Betrayal."

Did not mean you.  Meant the countless "pk sucks/why cant you find an alternative/mcb is a tagline not the game's theme/etc/any variation thereof" threads in general.

QuoteQuote from: X-D on Today at 04:26:12 PM
Each thing you do to "raise numbers" Has the same chance to lower them.

That's a ridiculous statement.

That is not a ridiculous statement.  I just don't see what it's in response to unless someone is suggesting we need to do some sweeping exorbitant change because a new player decided they didn't want to stay here.  Aside from blatant knee-jerk reactions, of course.

But yes, a longtime discussion has been making changes to be closer to newbie friendly at the expense of losing people who already enjoyed the game.

Quote from: Armaddict on December 15, 2019, 03:13:11 AM

QuoteThe idea that this may be happening isn't pure conjecture. In other threads regarding PK, certain players who PK a LOT have said that they feel like PK reports are too burdensome to worry about having to file. I would assume this is because they PK so often that it'd feel like they were constantly doing paperwork.

I think you may drastically overestimate how often those people PK.

That's entirely possible. But without knowing for sure, they could kill 2 people a day before dinner. Maybe one for dessert.

Without some way to see total PKs on the server, and not just PK reports, it's not really worth debating. Also, I'm pretty sure if someone kills you with poison, the system doesn't recognize that as X person killing you, but rather says you died due to poison or whatever.

Having good tools to determine how PC death occurs would be a good first step towards making any sort of ground in this debate. As it stands, we know nothing, Jon Snow. :)

Quote from: Heade on December 15, 2019, 12:51:01 AM
If they have no way of enforcing PK reporting, since they can't pull data on PKs directly from the server, I think it's very generous to assume that only a small handful of PKs go unreported.

Since it seems like the majority of PKs are done by a minority of players, it's entirely possible that those players virtually never file PK reports. That could theoretically make the percentage of unreported PKs 99%, which would make the number of PC deaths to PK instead of Environment(meks, dehydration, falls, etc), up to 100%.

We know that's not the case, but a case could be made for anything between .5% and 99% without that crucial piece of data, so any further speculation is just guesswork.

Example:

RP guy 1 never PKs anyone. = 0 PK reports.
RP gal 1 PKs 2 people          = 2 PK reports.
RP guy2    PKs 2 people       = 2 PK reports.
RP gal 1 PKs 1 person          = 1 PK report.
PK guy 1 PKs 37 people       = 0 PK reports.

If only these 5 people PKed at all, but the one who PKs the most never submits reports unless prompted by staff(and even maybe not then), then despite 80% of the people who PK submitting reports, 88% of PKs would still go unreported.

The idea that this may be happening isn't pure conjecture. In other threads regarding PK, certain players who PK a LOT have said that they feel like PK reports are too burdensome to worry about having to file. I would assume this is because they PK so often that it'd feel like they were constantly doing paperwork.

There is zero chance someone is going to PK 37 people without getting a friendly visit from the Imm in the sky. PK doesn't happen nearly as often as you think it does, and even when it doesn't get reported, odds are at least one staff member was likely notified it occurred.

Also, I'm sure there's a way to pull the hard data, but like a lot of back end stuff, you're working with a code base older than many players.

Quote from: Heade on December 16, 2019, 12:30:04 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on December 15, 2019, 03:13:11 AM

QuoteThe idea that this may be happening isn't pure conjecture. In other threads regarding PK, certain players who PK a LOT have said that they feel like PK reports are too burdensome to worry about having to file. I would assume this is because they PK so often that it'd feel like they were constantly doing paperwork.

I think you may drastically overestimate how often those people PK.

That's entirely possible. But without knowing for sure, they could kill 2 people a day before dinner. Maybe one for dessert.

Without some way to see total PKs on the server, and not just PK reports, it's not really worth debating. Also, I'm pretty sure if someone kills you with poison, the system doesn't recognize that as X person killing you, but rather says you died due to poison or whatever.

Having good tools to determine how PC death occurs would be a good first step towards making any sort of ground in this debate. As it stands, we know nothing, Jon Snow. :)

Anybody killing two PCs a day will very quickly draw scrutiny from staff.

So, I probably don't count as a new player anymore, but I will say that my experience with the game has been on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I recall one of my first characters being let go by a raider mid-fight after surrendering (in a situation where I could easily have spamwalked off once they disengaged) and another where someone let my thief live to be an informant for them. Both times I had a vague feeling it was because they thought I was a cute newbie and wanted to give me a chance.

I don't mean to imply that the experiences of the other people posting here aren't valid, but I just felt it'd be good to weigh in on the other side of things, since people that get lucky and get some armageddon 'mercy' probably don't come to the forums to rant about it, so we don't hear about that as much.

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 17, 2019, 01:39:08 PM
Anybody killing two PCs a day will very quickly draw scrutiny from staff.

This is a very easy assumption to make when you're assuming staff is active 24 hours a day and/or has tools to easily notice this sort of stuff. But a healthy percentage of people who play this game don't even really get on the GDB. It wouldn't be such a stretch to imagine that several of these people don't submit PK reports. Further, I would guess that 10 characters die without complaint on the GDB or Request page for every 1 that results in requests/complaint threads. So, if people are PKing, 9 out of 10 times, it's probably not going to result in a complaint. And if there is no complaint, generally staff won't bother looking into it.

I'm not saying specifically how many PKs there are in the game on a daily basis. I'm pointing out that we don't really have the tools in place to know, since PK reports are really only "strongly encouraged" and not required.

Last time I heard from a staffer on the issue of PK reports, they basically said that if they noticed someone PK multiple people over a short time frame without reports, they'd ask them to send in reports. But that the only way they could really tell when someone died is to either be online at the time they die, or look specifically at the player's account.

So, wait... If they killed MULTIPLE PCs in a short time, THEN they'd be hounded about reports...IF someone noticed that they killed multiple PCs. Considering that staff can barely tell when someone dies, it seems highly unlikely that they'd be able to notice a pattern of behavior from a particular player.

Essentially, staff doesn't have an easy way to keep track of PKs in order to enforce PK reports. As a result, they can't really enforce a PK report requirement. Failure to enforce any requirement of PK reports encourages twinky PK-focused players by allowing them to do what they do without repercussions. PK becomes more common, making it even more difficult to track and recognize patterns of behavior, as well as resulting in a shift of the bell curve as to what is a "normal" amount of PK.

This discussion makes me want to poll the community to see what the most PCs killed on a single character was. I'm sure some of those PKers out there would love to brag about a number, but maybe an anonymous poll would be better...

Okay so this thread is still going on and getting weird.

Any game I've ever staffed gets channel or post notifications when PCs die, including how they died, where, what time. There aren't undocumented deaths going on. Someone might feasibly chase someone into death via shield wall or npc, I guess. PK reports aren't to let staff know that someone died, it's to let staff know the reasons why they died in case of in game investigation or OOC policy issues.

Quote from: Heade on December 18, 2019, 11:05:42 PM
This discussion makes me want to poll the community to see what the most PCs killed on a single character was. I'm sure some of those PKers out there would love to brag about a number, but maybe an anonymous poll would be better...

This probably wouldn't be useful unless it was in an average per period of time format.  If I've killed 10 characters on 1 PC, but they were around for a year, it's a lot different than if I killed 10 characters on 1 PC who was around for 1 month.

Someone else brought up a good point:

The system doesn't know who shot the bow, when an arrow kills a PC. Or slung the stone, threw the dagger, or shot the crossbow. They don't see that it was a PK at all. They only see that Amos was killed by an arrow, amen.

Is that confirmed? I know in one of my account notes I've got the opposite with npc's: <character> has been killed by something shot by the hulking, bent-backed gith woman.

I might be confusing it with poisoned missile objects. If someone shoots a poisoned arrow at you, and you die from the effects of the poison, the line in your report says you were killed by poison, not by a person.

Brokkr had a way to give "some" data that was easy to gather. Probably took him a few min.

I assume doing it in such a vast detail as it's requested would require more effort. Enough of it to balance if it's even worth  it. But regardless, let's give the guy time to actually reply. Either with data, or a voiced unwillingness to spend the time to grab it.

Because the last page of this threads conversations is people trying to prove their preferred view of the game (people pk left and right vs people never pk) via variables that they do not know about. Just guesstimation and theory crafting based on extrapolated evidence that's been built on some more guesswork.

If it's that important for you to know that data, bug staff enough to convince them to give it. But please don't post your own guesstimation that's based on a puff of farts.

All of Staff have access to the request tool.  A far more limited set of people have access to the actual database.

As for the original post.  Not everyone is looking for the kind of game that Armageddon is.  I am happy when Armageddon matches what a new player is looking for.  I don't shed a tear when it doesn't, however, as we are not looking to water down the experience, for example, by letting folks know "why" they were killed rather than sometimes having it be an eternal question mark.

The op got kicked in the nuts by the game's shitty pvp culture. They are understandably frustrated and confused for it.

I can tolerate the "this isn't the game for you" or the "you just want a watered down game" mantras from some of the other GDB blowhards. But I find it disappointing coming from a staff member.

The "I won't shed a tear" part comes off rather arrogant, particularly from a staff member.

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 19, 2019, 04:19:12 PM
The "I won't shed a tear" part comes off rather arrogant, particularly from a staff member.

This is actually incredibly distressing coming from not just a staff member, but one of the three people who are in charge of the game at the top levels.

Its a shame, no other way to put it. Your actions shame all of us.

I think that's an unfair reading of Brokkr's post.

If I go to play Achaea expecting a permadeath RPI and am frustrated upon finding it isn't a permadeath RPI, the onus is not on the staff of Achaea or players to turn it into a permadeath RPI. It's on me to find the game I'm looking to play.

Part of the Armageddon experience is that sometimes your PC dies, and sometimes it sucks ass and you feel shitty about it. It's happened to every single one of us. It's fair to debate the culture that leads to this sort of thing and it's fair to debate staff policies around it, but at the end of the day, Armageddon is a permadeath game where PCs sometimes kill other PCs. It is a game set in a world where every living being is in a bloody competition for survival and some of those living beings are played by other players.

We can do what we can to address any sort of culture of carelessness that leads to players killing other PCs out of hand with little regard for the larger narrative or story other folks may be trying to play out, but it's so terribly difficult to set out hard definitions for any of this without fundamentally changing what Armageddon is. That's precisely why staff handle PK on a case by case basis.

Quote from: Riev on December 19, 2019, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 19, 2019, 04:19:12 PM
The "I won't shed a tear" part comes off rather arrogant, particularly from a staff member.

This is actually incredibly distressing coming from not just a staff member, but one of the three people who are in charge of the game at the top levels.

Its a shame, no other way to put it. Your actions shame all of us.

... No, it doesn't. That's so dramatic! Think of a MU* as being invited into someone's living room for a DM'd game. They're freely inviting anyone to play, discuss the game, argue with them about how the game should be, make suggestions. Sometimes invitees even tell them they're assholes, and sometimes they are. But there's no onus on the host to change the game if someone doesn't like it.

MU*s aren't purchased/packaged games. They're just online gatherings of nerds who want to pretend to be elves and magicians and Romans and sometimes furries and whatever else the community is roleplaying about. If someone comes in and doesn't like the game they've been invited to roleplay out, why would the onus be on the host, anymore than it would be if someone were invited into someones home and decided the DM'd game wasn't to their liking.

A new player didn't like the way he was PK'd. He gave it a second chance, and didn't like how the stat system is set up, specifically because he got poor rolls. It's... not that big of an issue. The doors are always open for the new player to try again if they want to.

Yeaaaah. I mean if the guy got killed by some 0 day dwarf straight out of chargen without any word, or rp, or anything. Then after that guy posts a thread about it and gets a "leave if you want, we don't give a fuck" from a staffer. That would be shameful.


But if the guy gets killed through a roleplayed out series of events and then posts a thread saying he didn't "deserve" to die. Then I personally don't see any problem with a statement, "the world of this game is harsh. Unfairness is one of its selling features. If it appeals to you - great. If you choose to leave because the theme doesn't appeal to you - I'm not gonna cry about it."

Quote from: Dar on December 19, 2019, 05:50:42 PM
Yeaaaah. I mean if the guy got killed by some 0 day dwarf straight out of chargen without any word, or to, or anything. Then after that guy posts a thread about it and gets a "leave if you want, we don't give a fuck" from a staffer. That would be shameful.


But if the guy gets killed through a roleplayed out series of events and then posts a thread saying he didn't "deserve" to die. Then I personally don't see any problem with a statement, "the world of this game is harsh. Unfairness is one of its selling features. If it appeals to you - great. If you choose to leave because the theme doesn't appeal to you - I'm not gonna cry about it."

^^^ what he said.

Yea. I gotta support Brokkr and the others on this one. I mean, we have all had PC's that were killed by others and we are all still here because we love this game. I know there are probably a couple of regular players that PK a lot, but I think most of us are here for the superior RP and grittiness that this game, and it's players provides.

Quote from: Hanyo on December 07, 2019, 09:15:23 PM
I do not know if this is typical of this MUD, or if it's just my bad luck but even in a Non-Consent environment it might behoove the game as a whole not to railroad brand new players and kill them for something they could not POSSIBLY have done just to be a dick.

I thought the game was pretty cool, but I will not be returning as this is what I expect is normal for the player base. I don't mind being ganked, but over something I couldn't have done and as someone who's been playing less than a full real time week? That just smells like a big pile of bantha poo.

I'm sure this will be taken as whining, but hopefully it comes across as something more like maybe a small piece of viable advice for trying to retain new players. Caio.

Riev, read this again.  Worried about the negative that happened to their character actually being related to what their character did?  This may not be the game for them, since betrayal, and the the misdirection that comes along with that is an awesome part of the game.  Not knowing the actual story, or who really did what, also awesome parts of the game. I absolutely want to retain new players who think of that as awesome.

If they think of that as a negative, this may not be the game for them.  That is ok.  Armageddon isn't everyone's cup of tequila, nor is it meant to be.

The issue I have is that I agree. I was there. I fully admit I saw the scene.

The concern is the attitude towards it, coming from one of the people's whose job it is to shape the game's direction and culture, and the attitude is "I don't shed a tear". It is your choice of words, that makes you come across as prickly and dismissive of what happened.

I wouldn't expect the game to change. I would expect the head of the game to say "It is unfortunate the game didn't match their expectations, but we aren't going to make sweeping changes to accommodate".

"I don't shed a tear" is just rude.

Except that it isn't unfortunate.  It just is.

It would have been fortunate if what they wanted in a game matched what we offer, but it isn't unfortunate when that isn't the case. We can't cry and moan for every person that this game isn't a fit for. Nor do we have to wear the kid's gloves when it happens.

Yo.

This isn't coming from a place of anger or discontent with the world or staff of Armageddon. People who disparage the work of staff dont see or know how much work goes into maintaining any rp game or know the pains of game mastering for a bunch of whiny people. However, I'm deeply concerned... my anecdotal experience was filled to the brink of conflict, secrets, and players trying to kill me right out the box.. while all of the stuff may be due to the areas of game and entirely anecdotal, I felt Some of it was warranted, and some of it far, far less so. If I was brand spanking new, I know I would've died too..

The world won't get made more gracious by my whining either. The systems in place are inherently biased against new players. You get that from karma, you get that from the steep learning curve, and everybodies who I recruit quit do to the applications or complexities of a text game. SO it's true this game isn't meant for everybody, and the finite characters we build and lose leave us with a gap that we don't get to grieve over sometimes since no one understands it.

But I implore you not make potential newbies feel less comfortable about it. I worry about Armageddon's future because it's a fun setting. But you gotta remember it's nothing without people, and persistent world servers die without new players. You're not expected to shed tears for the painful loss or the time that gets wasted in the game by the characters that come, are killed, and are inevitably forgotten like grains of sand dropped into a desert. Now, when you say I'm not going to shed a tear if you leave, even if it's true, it makes people including me, feel like their time means nothing. It's seen as unappreciated.. New players shouldn't immediately feel like new victims for murder. We deserve better than that.

I'm writing in hopes of seeing some positive come from some pain.. never as another voice set to whittle down the efforts of players who pvp or staff who monitor it.Or crying because something didn't go my way, because that'd be as far from the truth as possible. Another thread or staff dialogue should be opened about specifically player retention. I'd like to see more posts for publicity, outreach, or how to improve the face of Arm... or how that new players can actually reach out to staff even? With a glimpse at other mediums people use to voice in like reddit, potential players think staff are boogeymen and players are all obnoxious unempathetic dotards. Or worse, older players have their views tainted. And in an age of disinformation, people will also buy into the toxic, duplicitous shit. Being view as extra callous won't help improve.

 To the people that I may have taking something out on, I am sorry for not understanding the depth and devotion put into the PCs and this game in general. Was a point in my life that things were very rough and making suicidal PCs were an outlet for me. I know my warpath of emotions left some upset and I regret this today after understanding what all is involved to keep this game at the level that it runs at.
  Years later and no karma.. just shows me I still have much to amend for and give back before I even come close to breaking even with the damage I had done.. this have changed in my life and I got past my problems, much to thank for the staff creating a place for my mind to heal. I don't pass up a chance to bring a newb under my wing when I can.

To thos I may of upset I am truly sorry and to the staff, you have a life time of gratitude coming your way.           -Cordon