Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: number13 on September 15, 2019, 02:47:54 AM

Title: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 15, 2019, 02:47:54 AM
As a disclaimer, I haven't actually played in the Guild itself for over a RL year.

The Great Merchant Houses get giant bankrolls, a bunch of stuff stored in their compounds, and the ability to craft special goods. The Arm of the Dragon gets the coded support of the crime code. It's very easy for a templar or solider with rank to throw their weight around, especially within Allanak's walls. Even the Byn gets a nice safe compound filled with NPCs, and they tend to have a large player population, some of those PCs exceptionally tough.

The Guild gets, for practical purposes, nothing. Yes, there are Guild locations and Guild NPCs, but they are far from secure. Theoretically, you could gank a Guild boss right in the middle of their turf and get away laughing, easily. The only retribution being...hopefully another Guild player has twinked up backstab and bothers to go get revenge.

Eastside gets less than nothing, since it doesn't even have an open clan.

Ignoring eastside for a minute, let's just take the example of the Guild. There's nothing about the Guild that gives an Infiltrator or Miscreant or Fence an advantage over a counterpart working for a Great Merchant House. In fact, if your goal was to be a great assassin or thief, you'd be better off clanning with a Great Merchant House or Noble House or even the Byn. It's pretty common for would-be assassins to go to the Byn for sparring practice, and then maybe come back home all twinked up. That's backwards -- the best criminals should be the lifers who are in the Rinth full time.

Imagine how ridiculous it would if Artisans got special perks for joining the Guild -- fancy items that could be crafted only by Guild members, but the same advantage did not exist in the GMHs. If you wanted to be the best Artisan, you'd have to join the Guild -- nonsensical. That's the situation today for criminal classes working for the Arm, with their crime code immunity -- a better perk than the Guild, by far.

I offer the following as potential solutions:

1: There should exist a supply of special materials dispensed from an NPC that only the Guild or theoretical elf clans can get ahold of...and use to any benefit.  Say there's a special Guild poison and Guild lockpick and Guild smuggling gear. For example, perhaps there's a Guild NPC that will taint a blade with a much stronger version of bloodburn.

2: There could be a WANTED flag for the westside and a WANTED flag for the eastside. Crimes would be attacking clanned PCs or NPCs, or entering certain locations without being clanned. If flagged, it makes tough NPCs with max scan aggro.  Some of these NPCs should even be on the southside, in appropriate locations. Members of the Arm of the Dragon clan always have this flag. People who become known as working for templars -- ie, aides, soldiers -- get the flag and never lose it without being pardoned by a PC or NPC with appropriate rank.

In that regard, guild bosses could and should be the templars of the westside.

3: Right now apartments on the southside are useless as storage units, because lockpicks have become so common. In addition to making Allanak more a wasteland, as hoarder-type people flee out to places where lockpicks are less common, this is a problem for the Guild, because traditionally one of their rackets was protection schemes.

Firstly, lockpicks should break more often. Even on a successful use, their quality should be degrade, every time.

Secondly, only members of the Guild or a theoretical elf clan should be able to make lockpicks of average quality or better. Nonclanned characters should be stuck making super shitty lockpicks. A certain shop should have all it's potentially good lockpicks removed from it's loot table, and replaced with all crap lockpicks.

This would give criminal organizations more control over who has a lockpick, and make protection schemes feasible again.

4: The Guild, in particular, under certain circumstances, should be able to buy crime-code immunity, representing bribes paid to the common solider by the organization. (with abuse resulting in character storage)
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Derain on September 15, 2019, 08:40:49 AM
Couple thoughts:
1. The guild gets an entire part of the city to run and hide in from the arm if they do a crime.
2.IIRC you get assisted if near certain guild clanned NPCs
3. pretty sure the guild has something pick wise not going into it.
4. No picks should be made by others but the guild should find out who and break their legs. IT GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO DO.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: WarriorPoet on September 15, 2019, 09:36:35 AM
I have tried to get a few Guild characters going over the last few years. I dig the wild west, no frills experience of making your way up without much npc/stsff/whatever assists. My main problem....

Playing a law-dog requires a happy medium. You might have the authority and resources to hassle every elf or stranger, but, as kahuna said, that is going to stifle your criminal element badly even without automating the process. You want someone to play off of.

Snatching up every rinthi or traveller you see is going to net you a handful of petty crap. Giving them the freedom and rope to hang themselves with, and you get to catch them with a pocket nuke AND Lady Borsail's panties.

I wish we, as players, could wink at a few smaller crimes for the sake of letting the rinthi element get going. I played two militia leaders and had so much more fun working with and against well established criminal elements rather than red flagging every urchin I found with a pick or a grain of smoke.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lutagar on September 15, 2019, 09:41:47 AM
'Rinth players have the biggest advantage of every location on the game map - a safe way to practice combat skills, back-stab and sap on humanoid npcs with zero consequences. It's only unsafe if another play chooses to make it so.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 15, 2019, 03:18:59 PM
3. pretty sure the guild has something pick wise not going into it.

You might be right, but if it exists, I've never heard of it or seen it.

Quote
4. No picks should be made by others but the guild should find out who and break their legs. IT GIVES THEM SOMETHING TO DO.

It's impossible/too annoying to control with any success. It's too easy for someone to roll around off-peak. The proof is in the pudding -- apartments in Allanak are a wasteland. Most room aren't rented, and even those that are end up opened without even a courtesy re-locking afterwards.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 15, 2019, 03:22:17 PM
'Rinth players have the biggest advantage of every location on the game map - a safe way to practice combat skills, back-stab and sap on humanoid npcs with zero consequences. It's only unsafe if another play chooses to make it so.

There's humanoid opponents in the Pah and other wilderness locations that you can backstab and sap. You can do the same in cities/towns at night.

And nothing aside from other PCs stops southsiders from rolling into the Rinth to practice their backstab and sap. There's nothing special about the Guild that gives them an advantage in this regard.

Nothing aside from staff animation stops the Arm of the Dragon or the Byn from just rolling through the Rinth and annihilating everything. It's only player restraint that prevents templar PCs and combat-trained soldiers from personally rolling through and slaughtering every last single Rinthi PC as they pop up. It would take just one PC to get the job done, really.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Mr.B on September 15, 2019, 06:53:30 PM
The Guild does get some perks compared to the average 'rinth dweller and as mentioned previously there are NPC's that are in with the power Westside. If you want the Guild to somehow provide you the ability to safely sap and backstab, pick locks etc, you don't want to be a criminal. It's a crime syndicate, it's not a GMH full of vnpc crafters and vendors all over the known. There is a certain level of risk associated with the activities mentioned for any character, especially to a 'rinther outside of the Labyrinth.

While nothing aside from PC's or Staff Animation curbs crazed PC's from murdering people in the streets of the Labyrinth for next to no reason, that tends to be enough to get noticed by either party and there could be consequences that result from it.

Quote
That's backwards -- the best criminals should be the lifers who are in the Rinth full time.

Guess what, they actually are. Being a great criminal in my opinion depends as much on soft skills as hard-coded skills in game. If you manage to become a long-lived, established criminal figure in the lawless alleys of the Labyrinth then you've probably become knowledgeable on the region and have learned and applied a number of soft skills to get there that are infinitely more valuable then a few twinked skills on one character.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 15, 2019, 07:05:48 PM
Probably an unpopular opinion but I rarely have fun in the labyrinth. There are just way too many glaring fallacies all over the place in there it's an illogical mess.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 15, 2019, 08:27:32 PM
Just came here to say I agree. The Guild is usually looked at as whatever rag tag crew is going on at the time.  There's a reason the Guild is an institution.  It is not one person.  It is a major criminal institution and there should be fiscal and deadly consequences if you take up arms or campaign openly against it.  You wouldn't just kill a Garrison Sergeant in Luir's with no consequences, but ... the Guild seems to be the exception.  More often than not it just ends up a puppeted extension of southside factions seen as powerful as the one person leading it at whatever point in time.

The Guild will always exist and it will be running the crimes it is infamous for running.  However, more often than not lately,  The Guild is just treated like one commoner and whatever their OOC skills maybe.   I have never really played Eastside so I can't speak to that. 

But overall, yeah.  I wish there were consequences IG to make is so that the Guild could sustain its independence and wouldn't be so reliant on finding someone who has lived long enough to insta-kill.  The Guild is organized crime.  Insta-kill should not be the only real, tangible threat.  Even someone who has obtained insta-kill can then be insta-killed in kind without any real saves. 

When a leader in a major House dies there's always consequences.  The only consequences in the Guild are 1) you wait a long time to get a new boss/trade going 2) you like the next boss a little more or less.  The insta-kill nuke arsenal diminishes the game highly for me as someone who is primarily focused on RP.  It's basically like the Guild is not really this feared tribe calling from inside the house.

On the flip side, I for one, don't want to see the Guild overly policed in everything it can and can't do to the point it basically becomes another merchant House except its just the sneaky one.

Edited to Add - I really like the idea of a wanted flag for West and Eastside as well as Guild NPCs sprinkled throughout the relevant areas.  If you want to attack Guilders on their own turf there should be a really good chance you may not make it out of the rinth alive.

Edited to Add Also - What WarriorPoet said but we all know that I am not about instakilling everything and everyone.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: ShaLeah on September 15, 2019, 08:59:25 PM
I'm gonna passive aggressively "be the change" here.  PC Guilders can change the world IC. Do it.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: MeTekillot on September 15, 2019, 09:46:37 PM
The problem is that the virtual world backing up the PC Guilders isn't properly represented as it is with other heavy-hitter clans, as you can read in the OP.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 15, 2019, 11:18:03 PM
I have never really played Eastside so I can't speak to that. 

Playing on eastside in the modern era is Arm on hard mode. You have little staff support/oversight, no available player clans, an entire city that more or less hates you, and OOCly and ICly all you can really count on is your own wits.

It's actually fun, right up until the point when you start feeling like you'd like to be more involved in plots. Elves die like kankflys, so it's even harder to get something going than it is in a clan setting. And there's no OOC ability to coordinate even, like with the Guild's GDB.

It's a very much "make your own fun" kind of place, but sometimes that fun can be really, really fun. It feels like a massive accomplishment when you actually manage to achieve a goal (beyond just looting for coins).
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: LindseyBalboa on September 16, 2019, 12:14:26 AM
Still very new to Arm compared to the people that've been here half a decade, or twenty years. But the 'rinth is one of my favorite places to play. It definitely does not have the staff/clan support that I've gotten playing elsewhere, though. No Elf clan, and the Guild has very little resources for a recruit. A boost to either or both of these issues would be amazing and help with the replayability of the area.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 16, 2019, 11:06:06 AM
The problem is that the virtual world backing up the PC Guilders isn't properly represented as it is with other heavy-hitter clans, as you can read in the OP.

I've had staffers promise the 'virtual backup if needed' a few times, but it never came to fruition. Staff-land requires DAYS to get to reports, read, respond, etc. Player-land changes by the god-damned minute. Its not staff's FAULT, but there should be something that helps police the Mafia's backyard.

There are a lot of things that could be done, ICly, to make these changes. The problem is, they require the Bebop "one-hitter" types to be both available and highly active in order to spread that fear and concern.

I've griped about it for years (imagine that). People resort to "kill them" over "steal their shit" every single time, because its actually EASIER to hit someone with peraine than it is to steal their favorite spice pipe. Its easier to just kill someone, than it is to send someone to break their fingers for stealing your song.

A lot of the Guild/Criminal Element relies on other players, and frankly, you have to be very lucky to find the 10% of people who will play along.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Krath on September 16, 2019, 12:49:18 PM
I tend to agree with a lot of the points brought up on here.

1. I believe a West/East side wanted flag would be a solid addition to the rinth. I grew up in the hood, literally one of the shittiest towns in america. One thing that was real was street justice. Bebop, Riev, Number13, LindseyBalboa. Mr.B and I may not get along, but if Shabago and Fehu come in from the burbs and fucks with them or their business, you bet your ass we are all banding together to fuck them up, and letting every street corner, dealer, runner, shop owner etc know about it and to be on the look out.

2. All the Guild is really are, oocly, contract killers. No one cares about spice, with the exception of Muls. Warspices do not provide enough benefit to outway the negatives. No Commoner is going to risk the templarz of doom coming down on you like you killed a fucking noble or hooking you for the rest of your pc like for having a grain or pinch of spice on you.  I am not about complaining without providing a possible solution so see below:
         
                         A) Make Spice Great again Proposal: Snorting a pinch of warspice should give +5 to stats, for 10-15 minutes max, afterwards you suffer huge set backs for double the time.  This allows the Guild to actually sell something that makes a huge difference, because right now the benefits are meh. Additionally, if you continue to snort pinch after pinch, it just extends the length of your benefit by 5 mins. Do not snort too much, because addition is a bitch, and that slippery line between addiction and non-addition is thin. Basically, they should be very potent and not last very long but kick like a fucking mule with withdrawal.

3. Lockpicks need to break much more frequently and are always degrading after use, just less by a master/expert. Also, making sure the right QUALITY of pick is being used with the correct Lock would be helpful. Lady Templar Sanvean's gold plated, double locked chest, if you do not have an uber quality pick, and master lock picking skill, you should not be able to pick the lock. Maybe those quality picks are gated behind Guild-clanned pick makers or pick making machines. Master lock pickers and pick makers should be coveted positions.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: mansa on September 16, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
3. Lockpicks need to break much more frequently and are always degrading after use, just less by a master/expert. Also, making sure the right QUALITY of pick is being used with the correct Lock would be helpful. Lady Templar Sanvean's gold plated, double locked chest, if you do not have an uber quality pick, and master lock picking skill, you should not be able to pick the lock. Maybe those quality picks are gated behind Guild-clanned pick makers or pick making machines. Master lock pickers and pick makers should be coveted positions.

FYI.
Only FENCE gets master pick making - which is a solid crafter skillset.
Pilferer and Miscreant get it to ADVANCED.
Infiltrator gets it to JOURNEYMAN.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 16, 2019, 03:52:12 PM
3. Lockpicks need to break much more frequently and are always degrading after use, just less by a master/expert. Also, making sure the right QUALITY of pick is being used with the correct Lock would be helpful. Lady Templar Sanvean's gold plated, double locked chest, if you do not have an uber quality pick, and master lock picking skill, you should not be able to pick the lock. Maybe those quality picks are gated behind Guild-clanned pick makers or pick making machines. Master lock pickers and pick makers should be coveted positions.

FYI.
Only FENCE gets master pick making - which is a solid crafter skillset.
Pilferer and Miscreant get it to ADVANCED.
Infiltrator gets it to JOURNEYMAN.

It may be more about the recipes, then.
Jman Pick Making can create an "average" quality pick.
Advanced/Master pick can open basically any door in the city with that. Doors you can't open, come with repercussions for trying in the first place, and you're likely to be caught by vNPCS.

I'd suggest that the quality of the pick denotes which locks can be picked, and the lockpicker's skill denotes how rapidly they decline in quality.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 16, 2019, 04:23:16 PM
Dealing spice is a joke, for so many reasons.  Chief among them, the effects don't last very long, and price is too high. (both in terms of potential for addiction and the actual coin cost of it).

I wish spice did something cool, like so cool that it's a threat to the city-state's power. Like temporary psionic powers levels of cool. If [whatever flavor] let you listen in on Wayed conversations, at the price of addiction, we'd see a a lot of addict Aides fiending for their hits. If [whatever flavor] gave you short burst of STUN or MOVE hyper-regeneration, then hunters and Bynnies would be crying for the stuff.

Couple it with nerf of addiction. Addiction should mostly be echos until your character has been in withdrawal for a while.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 16, 2019, 04:48:48 PM
The problem is that the virtual world backing up the PC Guilders isn't properly represented as it is with other heavy-hitter clans, as you can read in the OP.
There are a lot of things that could be done, ICly, to make these changes. The problem is, they require the Bebop "one-hitter" types to be both available and highly active in order to spread that fear and concern.

Bebop whaty-whats?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: ShaLeah on September 16, 2019, 04:56:17 PM
Dealing spice is a joke, for so many reasons.  Chief among them, the effects don't last very long, and price is too high. (both in terms of potential for addiction and the actual coin cost of it).

I wish spice did something cool, like so cool that it's a threat to the city-state's power. Like temporary psionic powers levels of cool. If [whatever flavor] let you listen in on Wayed conversations, at the price of addiction, we'd see a whole fucking shitload of addict Aides fiending for their hits. If [whatever flavor] gave you short burst of STUN or MOVE hyper-regeneration, then hunters and Bynnies would be crying for the stuff.

Couple it with nerf of addition's effects. Addition should mostly be echos until your character has been in withdrawal for a while.

This isn't even on topic.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Hauwke on September 16, 2019, 05:01:00 PM
Dealing spice is a joke, for so many reasons.  Chief among them, the effects don't last very long, and price is too high. (both in terms of potential for addiction and the actual coin cost of it).

I wish spice did something cool, like so cool that it's a threat to the city-state's power. Like temporary psionic powers levels of cool. If [whatever flavor] let you listen in on Wayed conversations, at the price of addiction, we'd see a whole fucking shitload of addict Aides fiending for their hits. If [whatever flavor] gave you short burst of STUN or MOVE hyper-regeneration, then hunters and Bynnies would be crying for the stuff.

Couple it with nerf of addition's effects. Addition should mostly be echos until your character has been in withdrawal for a while.

This isn't even on topic.

I would call it vaguely on topic. Like tangentially on topic, but barely.

They are right though, spice rots too quick to store it for any period of useful time. That hurts both supplier and demand. You the buyer only get it after the Guild has had sitting and slowly rotting away.

This causes the problem of it being another way that they have been vaguely nerfed as a clan, you can't deliver on an entire side of the business if your product rots 2 days after you sell it. It's unsustainable, people won't continue to buy.

That all said, I do love the idea of being wanted in the side you aren't meant to be on. Dirty elves shouldn't be traipsing around the west side willy-nilly. Same goes for the filthy humans and the East side.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 16, 2019, 05:02:10 PM
I've also been pondering this a lot since my return to the game.

I feel like something, somewhere has been lost and I can not place my finger on it.

The threat of insta-kill looms large right now, and it has since my return to the game.  Insta-kill seems like game god, and I don't recall this being the dynamic years ago.  I played since 2004 and before my hiatus I had only been insta-killed once ever in my several years of play (by a bard in Tuluk).  This isn't just a problem in the rinth.  It's a problem to the game in general.  I find my leader characters trepidatious to go outside of their respective compounds if they are anything but a yes man to every powerful player in the game.  By powerful player that could mean a noble or that could just mean a hunter who's capable of getting a very nefarious poison.

So this basically cultivates "safe" game play.  And this isn't just a problem codedly.  It leaks into problems socially.  It dilutes the story.

Time and time again since my return to the game, I have seen social mores constantly lack reinforcement.  And then, when someone puts up a stink they are threatened with the all mighty insta-kill and basically have to shut the fuck or be reduced to a petty, neutered version of themselves.  PCs are increasingly treated like one offs instead of representatives of their very powerful organizations.  Then, you have the same PCs staying in power for real life years so that status-quo never changes.  You can't go to Tuluk to get a breath of fresh air.  You can't do anything except maybe go to Luir's or the desert.  But Allanak is the only city-state so its your only measure of success really and only real outlet to play a city-based character like an aide or bard.  But maybe you don't want to play in Allanak for the tenth time in a row, especially when your choices are the same Lord A, Lady B, and Templar C because they've been the same ones for like two or three RL years.  You can't go to Tuluk and do well there, and not do well in Allanak.  You can't mix it up.  It's causing the game to stagnate and the game (to my mind) seems increasingly code base and less story based.  It's congested and disheartening after awhile.

On top of that you have, as number13 pointed out, a game world that isn't really reflective of the game world.  You can kill a guild boss in their own territory and the game world will not react as it will southside.  A guild boss has the backing of the most powerful and feared organized crime group in the city.  If you walk right into their territory and kill someone who's earned their trust that should be a problem.  You have duplicate soldiers overflowing in the shittiest bar southside - sometimes eight NPC guards.  Meanwhile, in the Arboretum where nobles should be safe - nothing.  People should be seeking jobs and clout to get into the ritziest bar in town.  But it's safer in the Gaj.  You have Byn Sergeants and Merchants being openly coddled over nobility.  You have Templars that can't even give orders at times to their own soldiers for small favors to said nobility.  Certain poisons aren't as hard to get as they should be and there are no consequences for over hunting.  I can confidently say that if I wanted to I could obtain one of the most deadly insta-kill poisons in the game with a character in about two months IRL if its still where I left it from five years ago and if I really wanted to.  That's too easy.

And now you have many, many guilds that have poison from the get go while city-based characters like Artisans can't even listen without using a subguild.  I really like how we've added more character guilds, but I think many of them need serious tweaking.  Skills like listen have gone by the wayside while poison is more prolific than ever.

I think the game is a little imbalanced right now.  And I'm less upset about having a badass character die, or feel like my leaders can't leave the safety of their own Estates as a one-off so much as I am that the story telling element of the game seems to be feeling incredibly hindered and terribly, terribly shallow in a meta that is all about instant kills that even the best warriors can do little to deflect.  I find it ironic we've nerfed magick use all to hell but now in like two months most character guilds can insta-kill folk.  I've thought a LOT about this, but some immense change would be needed and I feel bad because there's been some really good quality of life changes.  I feel the staff overall are lovely people.  But the meta really, really needs work because it feels very hollow rn to me and the Guild is only one example of this.

There is also increasing staff involvement, and how the world reacts seems to be less based on merit and good RP and more an arbitrary ooc matter that changes based on who the active staffers are at the time.  That troubles me too.  We really need the game world to codedly reflect the game world.  Staff are great, and helpful and lovely.   But the game world needs to be less arbitrary and social mores of the game should be the game god, not coded insta kills.  Staff's time should be use to deepen the world and assist players.  Not have to animate every little thing to make reactions to the world realistic.

Edited to Add PS --- This is why I made the thread about borderline twinky behaviors.  Just because you can treat someone like they are they are not backed up by their organization IG doesn't mean you should.  Just because you can hire rinthers into your organization doesn't mean you should.  Just because you can backstab flee and backstab again doesn't mean you should.  If code isn't going to reflect the game world properly, and staff are reluctant to back things up (which I'd rather them be more understanding than go all Nyr on us) then how players are we going to do better?  But ultimately, the staff are going to have the struggle of always working to create a balanced game world as do the developers of any game as changes roll out and things continue on.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bogre on September 16, 2019, 05:46:39 PM
A bit of derail, but pertinent to the above.

I think the effects of addiction to spice are extremely crippling and drive a lot of people away from using it. You want them to be like cigarettes, so that the addiction needs to be fed but won't kill them for a long time.

My suggestion is that spice would provide a similar bump to stats that it does now, but pretty long lasting, depending on type/quality. When its effects wear off, you feel a little bit sluggish, but as long as you don't abuse it you don't get to the addict level. And if you do get addicted, the effect is commensurate to how much your intake happens to be, and reversible with continued dosing of the spice.

That would allow you to play a functional methilinoc-user, for example, who is always smoking a pinch in the morning to keep just a bit sharper, but when he wakes (before he bakes) he's a little bit slower than he otherwise would have been.

It would look like this:

Intermittent Use: Effects / negatives as normal, except I'd expand the length of effects to negative ratio to make it desirable to use, and then you go back to normal. Biiiiig intermittent doses gives you big ups, and the big mul kick negative afterwards, but yeah, as long as you're being sparing, you don't have really long term negatives: that's for chronic and near constant use.

Mild addiction: More profuse mild use, i.e. always getting you a +1/+2 effect, gets you to the point of being -1 or -2 without it. You dose up, and you're back to +1/+2.  From here, increasing doses to get further benefit might increase your addiction, tapering off use leaves you foggy for a while but eventually you get back to normal.

Moderate/severe addiction: Getting +2/+3 constantly leaves you more wiped out, but maintainable, with -2/-3x off spice. Higher doses start giving higher negatives for the same effect, +4/-5, +5/-7.

Essentially, you build in encouragement to actually maintain use. Getting those benefits of methelinoc, krelez or whatever is easy, /as long as you keep using/. You encourage characters to seek out spice, and seek those who have it, ensuring the market for illicits.

=====

That then, gives in IG reason for the Guild, and player gangs, to be supported. Other parties have vested interest in the distribution / supply, and want to ensure that no one just knocks off the final bloody hand that delivers the goods.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 16, 2019, 07:42:56 PM
[redacted, might be too much IC knowledge there]
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Derain on September 16, 2019, 07:43:30 PM
I've got to say the reason the instant kill is used? I've seen countless times if you try to talk, give an emote or anything people will : A: hide standing in front of you while talking to them. B: spam flee the hell out of there..

I played a law enforcement PC and we caught up to this guy and even had a half giant pc looming in the only door out of this place and before the poor Templar could get his say off the guy fled ran out the gates of the city and proceeded to sneak back in for weeks to kill merchant PCs. So this is one reason many PCs won't give a chance, along with the fact you can pretty much be a ghost on certain classes even if people have equivalent scan.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 16, 2019, 07:59:28 PM
I've got to say the reason the instant kill is used? I've seen countless times if you try to talk, give an emote or anything people will : A: hide standing in front of you while talking to them. B: spam flee the hell out of there..

I played a law enforcement PC and we caught up to this guy and even had a half giant pc looming in the only door out of this place and before the poor Templar could get his say off the guy fled ran out the gates of the city and proceeded to sneak back in for weeks to kill merchant PCs. So this is one reason many PCs won't give a chance, along with the fact you can pretty much be a ghost on certain classes even if people have equivalent scan.

That's not really the kind of instakill I'm worried about. In that situation, you should be restraining or killing that criminal PC, imo.

The 'bad' instakills are when someone creeps up and hits the target with strong poison, or a character with massive combat skills types 'backstab'. There might be extraordinary roleplay from the assassin. It doesn't matter from the perspective of the corpse, or all the plots that just got destroyed.  It's just too easy to instakill -- there's not enough of a gateway preventing players from getting strong poisons (or certain spells for that matter), and no reasonable defense other than hiding away forever.

The Rinth is uniquely bad at training up characters who are capable of procuring these kinds of poisons, in theory, at least. Ideally, an alleyborn character should almost never be out in the wilderness, except for very short jaunts.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 17, 2019, 09:15:34 AM
Also note:

'Rinthi characters that are killing elves? Get targeted by elven PCs. It isn't 'easy' to twink there. If you're killing the 'easier' humans? Often times, the Guild is territorial about it (to a point). Its not "easy" to twink up, it just seems that way because you never see them in a bar, idling. Code-focused characters are rarely sitting and waiting for the social RP to catch up to them.

Instant-kills are necessary because, as Derain said, this is a game where people WILL use whatever code they have to escape. Hiding. Fleeing. Threaten and flee-for-free hits only do so much unless you're a massive fighter. Nobody practices subdue because unless you're a Half Giant it feels useless.

I don't know how to address it, because giving more options to "cripple or restrain" are 100% going to lead to "restrain first, because its easier, THEN kill them while they are helpless". On far too many characters, I've heard that I should "just kill them, an alive enemy is just trouble and nobody can question a corpse".
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 17, 2019, 09:48:12 AM
Instant-kills are necessary because, as Derain said, this is a game where people WILL use whatever code they have to escape. Hiding. Fleeing. Threaten and flee-for-free hits only do so much unless you're a massive fighter. Nobody practices subdue because unless you're a Half Giant it feels useless.

They are not necessary. Who cares if the guy gets away? If you're in the militia you already have a massive advantage over any indie that you're going up against, code wise. This goes for any clan in the game going against an independent criminal, raider, etc. The clans always have the numbers advantage, usually gear advantage and can always use code to screw your PC over.

I am of a mind that you should foster roleplay, not try to 'win' every single situation in the game, it strays dangerously close to griefing when people are getting attacked by militia PCs because they know the crimcode will screw them over. Kurac has done this numerous times in Luirs and it still happens to this day. There is a reason you never see criminal PCs for the most part, it isn't fun to get stomped by the coded advantages clans have over you.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 17, 2019, 10:02:15 AM
In an ideal world, I 100% agree. We should be fostering the Roleplay. I've had outdoor fight scenes where I've disengaged, and RP'd it, and the other person did the same and we had a good scene out of it.

The trouble is, when your assignment is "kill Kahuna", your only choice is instant-kill burst DPS. Otherwise you fail, and while people SAY that "failing is part of the fun", the fun for me is not in "being killed yourself because you weren't able to one-hit kill this troublesome person".

And I think the reason you don't see them, PERSONALLY, is that 'criminal' is basically 'assassin'. If you see them, they didn't do their job. Pickpockets. Burglars. Liars, cheats, thieves... they all exist but it can't be KNOWN in Allanak or you have to leave.

And yes, I think that's because of the massive advantage an AoD private gets to basically do whatever they want with you. Corruption be damned, nothing feels better than "actually arresting a thief".
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 17, 2019, 10:09:56 AM
If the other person is in "kill mode" sure you can do the same but I think restraint when you play in certain clans is required. There is a crimcode that works very well against people breaking the laws. Outside the cities? It's fair game, I'm all for smashing people outside or in the 'rinth, my gripe is mainly areas with crimcode and clans with locked doors knowing they can "get you" by using the code to their advantage.

One way to fix some of this is to add more climb rooms. I don't think clan compounds should be impenetrable fortresses with only one exit/entrance. People should be able to get in via climb/air rooms, would make for some very interesting burglaries and break-ins.

This has already been done in Allanak with a lot more rooftops which gives a lot more freedom and love to criminals to 'get away'. One of the best additions I think in general to the game was adding that area to the game.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 17, 2019, 10:28:11 AM
Cool but that has nothing to do with the 'rinth needing teeth, that's its own separate discussion.

In the 'rinth, you tend to foster people who burst DPS/insta-kill first, because to do otherwise is basically suicide. To the point that a Guild Boss, while typically codedly powerful, ends up in more of a political position that means they are a constant target.

Unlike a GMH Merchant, who operates in a lawful part of the city, or a noble with a guard, a Guild Boss is basically just some gangbanger who can't leave their home base. Its too easy to just kill them, and wait 2 RL months for another to come along that will work with you better.

I think the difference is... if you keep killing Kadian Overseers until one decides to work with you, you get ICly punished. Even Templars can't just eradicate the entire crew of a clan without repercussions. But you can kill Guild members day and night, and suffer no ill will because... what... now the spice you weren't buying in the first place is a little slower?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 17, 2019, 11:50:39 AM

I think the difference is... if you keep killing Kadian Overseers until one decides to work with you, you get ICly punished. Even Templars can't just eradicate the entire crew of a clan without repercussions. But you can kill Guild members day and night, and suffer no ill will because... what... now the spice you weren't buying in the first place is a little slower?

Exactly my original point, but better stated.

It should be noted that I'm not advocating for Guild members to be invincible, anymore than a Kadian Overseer should be invincible. But you should have your ducks in a row before pulling the trigger on a Guild boss, or assaulting their holdings. If your attack is brazen, then the response should be equally brazen. And, there should be feuds in the Rinth, just as there feuds on the southside.

On the flipside, that death or the threat of death always be the response to an attack isn't what I'm looking for, at all. Dropping the head of a Templar's favorite kank on to his bed to send a message is more interesting story, by far. Or if some elf or westsider is fucking with Guild interests, beating them into a bloody pulp, and then offering them a deal to keep living is a more interesting story. Figuring out a way to zero out a merchant's bank account, by applying pressure to the Nenyuk. Getting a crafter banned from selling to the market stalls.

There's a whole bunch of interesting outcomes you could imagine a powerful and pervasive criminal empire could engineer, beyond just having a PC with master sneak/hide and a potent poison type "backstab."
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Shabago on September 17, 2019, 12:07:52 PM

I offer the following as potential solutions:

1: There should exist a supply of special materials dispensed from an NPC that only the Guild or theoretical elf clans can get ahold of...and use to any benefit.  Say there's a special Guild poison and Guild lockpick and Guild smuggling gear. For example, perhaps there's a Guild NPC that will taint a blade with a much stronger version of bloodburn.

2: There could be a WANTED flag for the westside and a WANTED flag for the eastside. Crimes would be attacking clanned PCs or NPCs, or entering certain locations without being clanned. If flagged, it makes tough NPCs with max scan aggro.  Some of these NPCs should even be on the southside, in appropriate locations. Members of the Arm of the Dragon clan always have this flag. People who become known as working for templars -- ie, aides, soldiers -- get the flag and never lose it without being pardoned by a PC or NPC with appropriate rank.

In that regard, guild bosses could and should be the templars of the westside.

3: Right now apartments on the southside are useless as storage units, because lockpicks have become so common. In addition to making Allanak more a wasteland, as hoarder-type people flee out to places where lockpicks are less common, this is a problem for the Guild, because traditionally one of their rackets was protection schemes.

Firstly, lockpicks should break more often. Even on a successful use, their quality should be degrade, every time.

Secondly, only members of the Guild or a theoretical elf clan should be able to make lockpicks of average quality or better. Nonclanned characters should be stuck making super shitty lockpicks. A certain shop should have all it's potentially good lockpicks removed from it's loot table, and replaced with all crap lockpicks.

This would give criminal organizations more control over who has a lockpick, and make protection schemes feasible again.

4: The Guild, in particular, under certain circumstances, should be able to buy crime-code immunity, representing bribes paid to the common solider by the organization. (with abuse resulting in character storage)

Personal opinion inbound rather then official standpoint: As the former Guild staffer, and a lover of the Rinthi general;

1) "Stronger poisons" will not be something I would ever support, in the current environment of the game, as the last thing we need is more "Insta-Win" buttons being used. Gear perks? Sure. Some exist. I wouldn't be opposed to others being added. In fact, it's something I'll bring up to the current staff team over the Guild for you all. Not saying it'll happen, but it's worth the discussion.

2) It's a lawless area. There are NPCs that react to seeing any attack upon fellow 'clan' members as is. Does this always work? Of course not. Would it work even if there were flags? ...Still no. If you think someone has disregarded the virtual or NPC world by, say, whacking someone in one of the bars - Wish up. I know I don't mind animating, if I'm available, to break kneecaps if warranted.

3) The majority of items originate in PC hands that would/should have them. Then they sell them for favours, coin/profit or have a stockpile and get murdered. Now 20 decent picks are in the hands of 'whoever'. Degrading/nerfing them is fine on paper, but it wouldn't really correct anything. It's something that needs to carry IC consequences from the "crews" if it's such an issue. Threatening those in possession of for pay offs, breaking fingers, robbing the robbers and so on is a more interesting RP story over 'Code nerf'.

4) You'd need to expand on this theory a little more for me. How? Temp AoD clanning if they pay someone? Why would we automate that when it's entirely possible to do that via IC interaction? PCs should handle PCs and virtual should handle the virtual, imo.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Shabago on September 17, 2019, 12:15:35 PM
'Rinth players have the biggest advantage of every location on the game map - a safe way to practice combat skills, back-stab and sap on humanoid npcs with zero consequences. It's only unsafe if another play chooses to make it so.

I wouldn't word it this way. Can you technically get away with doing so? Yeah. If there's IC reason/cause for it, rather then 'Get gud'. Further take into account the virtual and npc world. It's not a carte blanche area. If people are killing wholesale, and it's seen - expect to get dealt with rather harshly by those in the area.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 17, 2019, 01:47:12 PM

I offer the following as potential solutions:

1: There should exist a supply of special materials dispensed from an NPC that only the Guild or theoretical elf clans can get ahold of...and use to any benefit.  Say there's a special Guild poison and Guild lockpick and Guild smuggling gear. For example, perhaps there's a Guild NPC that will taint a blade with a much stronger version of bloodburn.

2: There could be a WANTED flag for the westside and a WANTED flag for the eastside. Crimes would be attacking clanned PCs or NPCs, or entering certain locations without being clanned. If flagged, it makes tough NPCs with max scan aggro.  Some of these NPCs should even be on the southside, in appropriate locations. Members of the Arm of the Dragon clan always have this flag. People who become known as working for templars -- ie, aides, soldiers -- get the flag and never lose it without being pardoned by a PC or NPC with appropriate rank.

In that regard, guild bosses could and should be the templars of the westside.

3: Right now apartments on the southside are useless as storage units, because lockpicks have become so common. In addition to making Allanak more a wasteland, as hoarder-type people flee out to places where lockpicks are less common, this is a problem for the Guild, because traditionally one of their rackets was protection schemes.

Firstly, lockpicks should break more often. Even on a successful use, their quality should be degrade, every time.

Secondly, only members of the Guild or a theoretical elf clan should be able to make lockpicks of average quality or better. Nonclanned characters should be stuck making super shitty lockpicks. A certain shop should have all it's potentially good lockpicks removed from it's loot table, and replaced with all crap lockpicks.

This would give criminal organizations more control over who has a lockpick, and make protection schemes feasible again.

4: The Guild, in particular, under certain circumstances, should be able to buy crime-code immunity, representing bribes paid to the common solider by the organization. (with abuse resulting in character storage)

Personal opinion inbound rather then official standpoint: As the former Guild staffer, and a lover of the Rinthi general;

1) "Stronger poisons" will not be something I would ever support, in the current environment of the game, as the last thing we need is more "Insta-Win" buttons being used. Gear perks? Sure. Some exist. I wouldn't be opposed to others being added. In fact, it's something I'll bring up to the current staff team over the Guild for you all. Not saying it'll happen, but it's worth the discussion.

2) It's a lawless area. There are NPCs that react to seeing any attack upon fellow 'clan' members as is. Does this always work? Of course not. Would it work even if there were flags? ...Still no. If you think someone has disregarded the virtual or NPC world by, say, whacking someone in one of the bars - Wish up. I know I don't mind animating, if I'm available, to break kneecaps if warranted.

That's like saying the crimcode southside doesn't work.  It does work.  It acts as a deterrent or an immediate consequence after.  The northwest side is not lawless.  It's just ran by the Guild, not the Templarate.  That should be reflected.  The Guild should have some relative safety in their own territory or the game world should react.  At least higher level Guilders should be offered that protection.  But again, that's like saying just get rid of the crim flag southside because it doesn't work.  It does work.

I don't really like the idea that anytime something happens you should wish up.  The game code should reflect the game world.  People shouldn't need to wish up for every arbitrary thing.  It's too open to interpretation.  In the southside if someone is killed or a templar or noble is wounded, it's pretty obvious guards are going to be called by VNPCs during the day and people are going to react.  The same should be said for the Guild on Guild territory.

As far as the poisons go, I think what he's trying to say is that hunter types that can go hunt for poison can just go get it.  They are effectively more powerful and flexible than the criminal org that's supposed to be the authority on assassination, poisons and spice.  So if the more potent poisons were sourced inside of the rinth and heavily guarded that would make more sense.  Instead, hunter #4 with five days of game play can insta kill the spooky assassin.

Overall, the Guild's nefarious reach isn't reflected in the game world socially or codedly.  And there needs to be a discussion to fix that.  Otherwise the Guild just ends up being an extension of southside which is no fun, or any leader with any controversial thoughts southside or northside is beholden to insta-kill.  Insta-kill is acting like a big ole nuke in the game where a lot of people can't do shit.

And who has insta-kill?  A spooky assassin who's got power in a criminal organization who's been around 6 months?  A rich and powerful noble?  No.  Hunter #4 with advanced archery and skinning.  The game meta is tilted, and that needs a looksy.  I'm really, really tired of it being the end all be all in the game.  I'm really tired of it being like oh you're a powerful noble?  Oh you're a powerful warrior with a gajillion days played?  Well you can't save against this skill I'm going to use on you because you don't have it and I've edged it with a poison that will instantly immobilize you.  Goodbye!  Oh you're sitting in a fancy tavern?  Doesn't matter.  You're not safe.  But the crappiest tavern in the land has like eight guards at it.  Oh you're a nefarious boss with a history in the most feared criminal organization in the city?  That's okay.  I can kill you without any repercussions in front of a bunch of people, beep boop.  Hunter #4 should not the most feared person in the game.  There's clearly some issues where the meta is imbalanced at present and story telling is taking a back seat.

Ultimately here is how I see it --- and edited to add

I do not want every character I play to have to join the Byn for 84 years first to survive.  I don't want every character I play to have to think, can I get perraine?  Can I poison?  Do I have blowdarts?  Can I branch it?  Will I be okay??!  What about the story?  What about snobby characters that want to start some drama.  They shouldn't be insta-killed.  This isn't fun.  If perraine and one hit kills are going to exist in the game they should be unspeakably, unspeakably rare.  The docs say they are, but they realistically are not.  And ultimately, even if you are very powerful in the end it absolutely will not matter because if someone decides to pull an insta-kill many characters won't even have the skill used to take them down in one hit so they have no save on their end against it.

I don't care about the logic of oh well so and so could escape so we have to kill them immediately.  Okay.  Then get better.  It happens.  Role with that failure and that story.  Strive harder to get them in compromising positions with your RP skills.  It sucks.  It happens.  This is a game.  When I played a Guild boss earlier in the game, I didn't use perraine not once.  Not ever.  I killed a scorcerer and a psion in that time.

Someone with like 100 days played, beefed all to hell shouldn't be able to die instantly because they don't have backstab or blowgun.  All of their training shouldn't amount to naught.  It's silly.  This is a game, and playability has to be a factor.  If there were any other game that existed where a character with 25,000 hours played on it, with all of their skills maxed could insta-die and be lost to a character that's been around less than 200 hours - it would be a hard nope. 

As for the topic at hand it just doesn't make any sense to say The Guild, which is a clan, has no coded bearing on their own territory.  It's like saying an assassin can creep into the Kadian estate, stab someone to death in the courtyard infront of literally everyone and just walk out.  Either the Guild is a real clan or it isn't.

I don't mean to harp on the insta-kill too much but right now it is basically being used as a shock collar to reinforce safe game play.  It does not reflect the game world.  It only reflects the PCs who have been in power for a long, long time and the will of those that are playing the coded skill pursuit game.  It isn't beholden to RP, lore, or story.  It is beholden to code.  And that is going to make the story feel shallow again and again until some balances and checks are put into play in the Guild and every where else.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 17, 2019, 01:59:06 PM
I'm leery of adding a type of 'crime code' to one of the only lawless civilized areas in the game. There are already a plethora of hidden Guild Clanned NPCs that will jump in and assist a clanned Guilder if they are attacked. Perhaps adding more of those around town, so that if an NPC is jumped by a PC, other NPCs will jump in to assist that NPC, thereby reflecting some sort of turf camaraderie. Even by having every Labyrinth-dweller start play as a member of 'The Labyrinth' Clan, would make it so NPCs assist that PC over someone from Allanak proper.

Abusable, to be certain, but the privileges to the clan could always be revoked if they're abusing it, much like would happen with any other clan in the game.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 17, 2019, 02:13:53 PM
Overall I'm confused by the arguments in this debate. Some people don't like 'insta kill' or the ability for other PCs to swiftly and effectively kill other PCs. Other people maintain the view that PCs are too untouchable and long-lived. There was even a thread about how there should be term-limits to leadership roles, due to the perception that they are untouchable and so on.

Then there is this argument that the 'meta' of the game is skewed towards code and not towards storytelling. I suppose I just haven't seen that to be the case, personally. There's quite a bit of politics and side-plots and shady dealings to affect the reputation of people in the game from very small to very big, the sort of slow-rolling locomotive that either leaves a trail of corpses or a destroyed reputation. I think the 'Insta Kills' are more noticeable, because they leave a dead PC and living PCs to mourn or revenge them.

I personally have always been in favor of combat being more brutal and swift. I think PCs (even perceived untouchable PCs) should be fearful of walking around alone at night. I've seen attempted assassination attempts on Nobles and Templars, some of them very successful, and GMH Family as well. I'm not sure where this idea that people are too powerful to fail comes from -- They're too powerful until they aren't, and then I guess people just take that for granted and move on to the next longest lived PC and quietly fume that they've been around for too long.

If we move away from the brutality of combat or 'Insta Kill', it would only further perpetuate the long-lived PCs. If it is easier for people to survive, then they will survive until they store and move on to another concept. If we are playing a permadeath MUD with permanent consequences to actions, then yes, death is the ultimate consequence. I've seen many torture victims, or people allowed to escape with a crippling injury. They don't tend to last much longer than their initial torturing, because it typically breeds resentment towards the offending party, and they want to exact revenge against them.

I'm all for quicker turnaround on PCs, within reason. Be it a red shirt or a leader. I see a lot of pulled punches IG recently, but I think it's the connecting punches and deaths that drive the story forward. It's a difference of opinion -- who's story is more important? There are a lot of people who play the game and want to believe their particular PC's story is important, or the most important, but it's really the game world's story that I want to perpetuate and drive forward. I think it would require more Staff direction for what exactly that story is, but the reliance on long-lived PCs to tell the game's story is sort of an unending catch 22.

Do I think the Guild or any clan for that matter should have a reciprocal response to threats, managed by either code or Staff intervention? Yes and no. But I think that clever Guild PCs have effected untouchable status by pulling the right strings in the past. I don't think it should just be handed to them on a silver platter, much as it isn't exactly handed to GMH Family on a silver platter, or even Nobles on a silver platter. It depends on the PC within that organization to reach any sort of status, it usually takes time, effort, money, and can be rescinded on a whim.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: nessalin on September 17, 2019, 02:16:52 PM
Locking this for a few hours.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Shalooonsh on September 17, 2019, 02:43:34 PM
So there's a lot going on here, and unlike Nessalin just giving a breather, which I think is definitely warranted, I was about to just slam the hammer down and lock this woeparty straight up.

A small reminder of the rules, for those who maybe haven't read them in a while, or have read them and have decided they either do not apply to them, or they're popular enough to sidestep them:
1 - No talk of previous characters within 1 year.  This DOES INCLUDE vague snarks, comments, mentions, allegories, and reverse prophecies.
2 - Keep it bloody civil.  This includes comments about how any sort of previous PC may or may not have ended in anything less than a purely factual tone.  Please see above notation about vague snarks, comments, mentions, allegories, or scribbling someone's phone number on the latrine wall.

Now I could go post by post through his thread and shoot more holes in it than an East Texas Highway Sign, but I'll just address a few key points:

On the subject of the Lawless Area of the Northern Quarter of the Biggest City Which Shall Remain Named In All of Our Minds:
The Oxford Definition of Lawless-
law·less
/ˈlôləs/
adjective
not governed by or obedient to laws; characterized by a lack of civic order.
"it was a lawless, anarchic city"
synonyms:   anarchic, anarchical, disorderly, ungovernable, unruly, without law and order, disruptive, insurrectionary, insurgent, revolutionary, rebellious, insubordinate, riotous, mutinous, mutinying, seditious, revolting, terrorist More

The key portion of that is "Not Governed."  This does not simply include by an active and taxing government, this means by any form of control which may seek to govern the actions of those within.   In the particular instance which has been named ad nauseum in this thread, any governance by the criminal organizations involved is done on a case-by-case basis.  To break it down into simple terms:  If players patrol, things get patrolled.  If players do not patrol, natural selection occurs.

The reason for this is simple:  There's already a templarate and a militia in the city.  The criminal organization involved here is just that, a criminal organization.  They care about crime.... not law.  They care about money coming in for their crimes, and they care about the people they employ being tough enough and savvy enough to handle their own shit while still kicking up the promised pouches.  If they aren't tough enough or savvy enough to handle their own shit.... well, please see definition of "natural selection" under the Oxford terms.

We have patrols and NPC law set up where we see reason for patrols and NPC law.
Luir's has NPC law.
Morin's has NPC law.
RSV has NPC law.
Allanak has NPC law where NPC law is valid.
Blackwing has NPC law.
Cenyr has NPC law.

If we added NPC law for this one instance, it would also stand to reason that we should add roaming packs of d-elves all over the Pah to keep those darn tootin roundears off the land! 
It would stand to reason that roaming packs of Tuluki Legionaires would keep watch over the grasses and smack those hooligans from the south left and right!
Roaming packs of cloak-wearing mekillot would keep law out on the flats, and then, who would be brave enough to go on mekillot poop heists?  No one, I say.

Law abounds where law should abound.  Are you a Guilder who wants to keep shit in order on the streets?  Make it happen for as long as you have the PC person-power to do it. 

And on the thought of any 100 day played character being invincible?  I laughed out loud.  The name of the game is Armageddon.  There's no winning this.  No matter how tough you are, there are ways to take you out, and if you piss off the right people, you'll get taken out.

All that being said, when this thread re-opens, I want it to be full of CONSTRUCTIVE IDEA MAKING and CIVIL [CENSORED] DISCUSSION.  Do not use it to air personal grievances or bait people into firing back.  Do not use it to snark at some action you see as being unjust/invalid/woe-inducing.

Use it to better the game, and LISTEN to the opposing viewpoints.

~Fin~
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Shabago on September 18, 2019, 04:30:17 PM
Unlocked, as previously mentioned.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 18, 2019, 04:35:15 PM
Question:

Are there ramifications for Templars, say, who kill (or have people kill) GMH employees or family members, because they don't get along?
If Indie Hunter Ramos Von Ramosson has been trying to get a particular custom cloak made from Kadius, and the current Overseer/merchants/etc have been giving him the run around, are there ramifications for him? Are they SIMILAR to the Templar?

Now, does this same thing happen if someone does this to the Guild? Would The Guild, non-virtually, start to make someone's life hell because they killed some Initiate/Adept in their own clan?

I'm hoping the answers are all yes, but in my anecdotal experience, the consequences come so far removed from the event that it doesn't connect.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lutagar on September 18, 2019, 05:13:32 PM
Now, does this same thing happen if someone does this to the Guild? Would The Guild, non-virtually, start to make someone's life hell because they killed some Initiate/Adept in their own clan?

Why would they? Pcs aren't allowed to reach ranks where they'd actually be anything but expendable muscle to the organisation.

More likely the npcs that matter (which you don't get to interact with) laugh about it and just wait another month for another bunch of expendable thugs to replace the ones they'd lost.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Brokkr on September 18, 2019, 07:34:08 PM
I played a law enforcement PC and we caught up to this guy and even had a half giant pc looming in the only door out of this place and before the poor Templar could get his say off the guy fled ran out the gates of the city and proceeded to sneak back in for weeks to kill merchant PCs. So this is one reason many PCs won't give a chance, along with the fact you can pretty much be a ghost on certain classes even if people have equivalent scan.

Was this before threaten, or was threaten not used for some reason?  It serves as a pretty good illustration of a situation threaten was created to deal with, so it would be useful to know the reasons it isn't being used in such situations.

As far as the topic on hand...

Not going to say there isn't some sort of glass ceiling for organizations in the Rinth, there is.  Play seems a bit more freeform and on the players to make it work and find their fun and roles.  But it seems to me when it comes into play, and the virtual organizations come into play, frequency is much less than the rest of Allanak.  And when it does, it has a different flavor, and at least in the last couple of years, has been used more to support player initiatives.

So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 18, 2019, 07:42:50 PM
That was partly what I was meaning to say when this thread got unlocked.

A lot of people complain about the glass ceiling, well the rinth is one area where there is a LOT less of it. There is a version of it, but it crystallizes more when you start delving into magick too much. The glass ceiling shows when you start going too far into sorcery/magick/demonology type of shit. But mundane? You are literally as powerful, as feared, as revered, as capable as ... as you manage to become. Everything is in your hands.


There is a lot of complaints here. But I think it's important to measure some aspects of the game in the currency of FUN. And I can honestly say that the only other clan I've had as much fun as I did running various rinthies, is when I was in RF.

There are periodically higher rank NPCs showing up with the guild, but for the most part they do so to jumpstart recruitment infrastructure. Occasionally introduce a plot lead. That's it. Everything else is player ran.

If you start introducing more structure, you'll start introducing more rules, you'll create your own glass ceiling that chafes you so in the southern part of the city.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Nile on September 18, 2019, 11:53:18 PM
Imo, no. If the 'rinth needs teeth then PCs should give it that edge. I'd like to see most of this done IG. If you want some crim-code get your crew patrolling on the regular. I've had countless interactions of this nature; me enforcing some sort of penalty for bad behaviour/getting caught out in a bad situation. Some of them escalate to violence and sometimes drawn out personal feuds (which are the best) others don't.

But I think the rinth design right now (and yes Guild does get major perks with regard to most of the NPCs in the westside) is okay. It needs work in other areas imo but what I had in mind seems to be happening to an extent already.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: LindseyBalboa on September 19, 2019, 12:10:32 AM
I just want a coded, staff-supported c-elf clan in the 'rinth. But all this talk about the Guild kinda makes me want to play another.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 19, 2019, 04:30:53 AM
So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?

It should remain a niche for those who want less, but...I think that niche needs more protection from outsiders coming in to stomp on the fun.

It's a delicate balance. Nobody wants invincible mega-crooks who can never be defeated or punished, but it's really only the grace and restraint of other PCs that protects the Rinth's integrity as a less structured playground (for murder). Because the Rinth has a high turn over (the aforementioned murder, plus rinthi graduating to the wider world), growing a PC defense force isn't always plausible.

Yes, it's fun to roam around and kick 2-day old Bynnies out of the alleyways, or patrol east/westside from opposing gang members. That's most of the fun in the Rinth, in fact. It's not fun having to deal with 20, 50, 100, 300-day old outsiders coming in stomp.

Just as an example, at one point, I had a exceptionally combat capable PC -- by Rinthi standards. It's possible this character was the toughest in the Rinth at the time. All it took was a big hunter to come out of the desert, festooned with armor, to render this character inert, incapable of defending their turf.

It was nothing to whine about at the time -- that other character wasn't there to stomp on the fun. It just feels like rinthi should have a little more home ground advantage against outsiders. And, just as there's advantages for crafters in GMHs, there should be advantages for sneakies in rinthi clans, to facilitate the idea that the Rinth grows the best criminals.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lizzie on September 19, 2019, 08:34:30 AM
So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?

It should remain a niche for those who want less, but...I think that niche needs more protection from outsiders coming in to stomp on the fun.

It's a delicate balance. Nobody wants invincible mega-crooks who can never be defeated or punished, but it's really only the grace and restraint of other PCs that protects the Rinth's integrity as a less structured playground (for murder). Because the Rinth has a high turn over (the aforementioned murder, plus rinthi graduating to the wider world), growing a PC defense force isn't always plausible.

Yes, it's fun to roam around and kick 2-day old Bynnies out of the alleyways, or patrol east/westside from opposing gang members. That's most of the fun in the Rinth, in fact. It's not fun having to deal with 20, 50, 100, 300-day old outsiders coming in stomp.

Just as an example, at one point, I had a exceptionally combat capable PC -- by Rinthi standards. It's possible this character was the toughest in the Rinth at the time. All it took was a big hunter to come out of the desert, festooned with armor, to render this character inert, incapable of defending their turf.

It was nothing to whine about at the time -- that other character wasn't there to stomp on the fun. It just feels like rinthi should have a little more home ground advantage against outsiders. And, just as there's advantages for crafters in GMHs, there should be advantages for sneakies in rinthi clans, to facilitate the idea that the Rinth grows the best criminals.

Possiblilty, what do you think about this?

All rinthis would have a tattoo. A simple mark, specific scar, something - anywhere on their body that identifies them as a rinthi.

THEN

Add 1 or 2 mid-level-skill/defense/offense wandering NPC thugs, on each "side" of the rinth.

THEN

Change the current scripts in "who gets picked on in the rinth and who doesn't" to reflect the above, combined with the current scripts.

SO:

A guy who does NOT have the rinthi mark, and shows up wearing anything that isn't a rinthi garment, is an automatic target for those wandering npc scripts. AND any NPC who happens to be around when that wandering NPC targets his victim, will assist.

AND

A guy who is NOT a marked rinthi and comes with *exclusively* rinthi-specific garments, will be treated as they usually are now.

AND

A rinthi (who would show up right out of chargen automatically with this mark) would be treated however they are treated now, regardless of the source of their garments.

So, unlike guards at gates, nothing prevents the northie scum from coming into the Rinth. But they risk getting the shit beat out of them simply because they're not a rinthi unless they don't stand out. And by stand out I don't mean wearing only under "x" valued stuff. I mean wearing only rinthi-specific stuff.

Edited to add: This new addition could be in effect for the entire rinth EXCEPT a specific paths leading from the "southside" to the rinth. The specific path near the Byn on Hathor's that is known about, and the one closest to the bar on the west side.

That way it won't require a doc change: people still are welcome to go to these places for trade in questionable goods with shady businessmen, as always. But if you wander off the "doing business in the bar" path - you're a target, and not a customer.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 19, 2019, 09:23:35 AM
I believe the rinth needs an overhaul, however the details of how, what, where and why are above all of our pay grades. Documentation is the backbone of any game, if the docs say one thing but the reality is much different that's something that needs to be justified at the upper echelons of staff.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Brokkr on September 19, 2019, 11:44:50 AM
I think it is important to note that the rinth is fluid.  Some folks will be born and die there, sure.  Others will be Southsiders that hit a level of poverty or need that they move into the rinth.  Or escaped slaves. Etc.

So it isn't like you have citizenship in the rinth or something.  You belong to a gang.  Or tribe.  Or you don't, and are the preyed upon.  If you are powerful enough to not be prey when by yourself, then I guess you aren't prey.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 19, 2019, 12:17:11 PM
I think, having MAYBE 2-3 more Guild-y NPCs playing the role of Enforcer would be nice.

As it stands, they either tend to group up, or are crazed and attack anyone anyways. It seems pretty rare you're walking around, as a Guild Member flashing Colors, and get attacked by a crazed spice addict, and someone actually comes to help out.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 03:06:25 PM
I played a law enforcement PC and we caught up to this guy and even had a half giant pc looming in the only door out of this place and before the poor Templar could get his say off the guy fled ran out the gates of the city and proceeded to sneak back in for weeks to kill merchant PCs. So this is one reason many PCs won't give a chance, along with the fact you can pretty much be a ghost on certain classes even if people have equivalent scan.

Was this before threaten, or was threaten not used for some reason?  It serves as a pretty good illustration of a situation threaten was created to deal with, so it would be useful to know the reasons it isn't being used in such situations.

As far as the topic on hand...

Not going to say there isn't some sort of glass ceiling for organizations in the Rinth, there is.  Play seems a bit more freeform and on the players to make it work and find their fun and roles.  But it seems to me when it comes into play, and the virtual organizations come into play, frequency is much less than the rest of Allanak.  And when it does, it has a different flavor, and at least in the last couple of years, has been used more to support player initiatives.

So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?

Hi Brokkr.

I don't think it's about the glass ceiling or the clan being more structured by standards put in place OOCly.  I think it's about the code being more reflective of the game world specifically in the Rinth and beyond.  For instance, if I sneak into an Oashi Estate there is ONE entrance.  I am going to face some serious challenges if I sneak onto their turf.  I may have to wish up to be able to even get out.  And there are going to be Oashi NPCs and VNPCs littered throughout the Estate that will attack me if I attack an Oashi noble.  If I sneak into the Oashi Estate I better be -damn- sure I can kill them on their own turf.  Because once I wish up and tell staff, "I'm about to try to PK Lady Fancy Pants."  I better hope to Gaj I do it quietly, and am able to RP getting TF outta there because I know the whole damn Estate might be able to come alive and hunt me down if I fuck up.

If fail at killing someone privately or discreetly and I am identified killing an important Oashi pc I would wager there are going to be consequences from their clan to mine.  Or just to me and my ass.  If I commit crimes in the light of day south side I BETTER be able to sneak outta there.  That's realistic.  These are examples of the code being arranged to react (somewhat) realistically.  This makes it so that there are challenges to just killing a PC anywhere anytime.  You can do it.  But depending on how, when and where - you will face certain consequences. 

There needs to be some such representation for the Guild.  It's like in ALL of the movies when the protagonist is trying to infiltrate the criminal base.  They should have to sneak past armed guards.  Not trip the alarm.  Etc.  The northwest side -is- Guild territory.  There needs to be some kind of safe house and a presence of Guild NPCs around it too.  It shouldn't be that easy to just walk up, kill a Guild boss and walk out.  The game world needs to reflect some safeties.  Otherwise, if you know someone is bound to work out of 1 or 2 locations where no protections are really in place it's really easy to just post up, insta-kill and pop out in a place that's "lawless."  So I think the OP is saying the Guild needs more support indicative of their presence as a criminal power house. 

Shalooonsh was very keen on going off about the definition of lawless but I would argue if we're going down to definitions let's discuss the definition of "organized crime." 

Quote
Organized crime is a category of transnational, national, or local groupings of highly centralized enterprises run by criminals who intend to engage in illegal activity, most commonly for profit. Some criminal organizations, such as terrorist groups, are politically motivated. Sometimes criminal organizations force people to do business with them, such as when a gang extorts money from shopkeepers for "protection".[1] Gangs may become disciplined enough to be considered organized. A criminal organization or gang can also be referred to as a mafia, mob,[2][3] ring,[4] or syndicate;[5] the network, subculture and community of criminals may be referred to as the underworld. European sociologists (e.g. Diego Gambetta) define the mafia as a type of organized crime group that specializes in the supply of extra-legal protection and quasi law enforcement.


The way I see it is this.  How can you tell where the meta might need work?  Look at where there is a gap between the way the game was intended to work, how the documentation says things should work, what would be fundamentally realistic and then look at how are things ACTUALLY going in game.  To my mind, these gaps where intent and realism aren't matching with how the game is being played are where the meta should be looked at.  In this case, we're discussing the Guild's reach as a clan and the services/wares it provides.

Ultimately, I enjoy player clans that have a more open feel.  I am all for putting PCs in impactful leadership roles, even senior leadership roles.  What I'm trying to establish is that if the Guild is a clan, it should feel like a clan and infiltrating it should feel like infiltrating any other IG estate.  Further, there should be some recourse if Guilders are attacked on their own territory.  Perhaps hidden NPCs that do not attack unless coming to the aid of a mid to high level Guilder.  Shalooonsh also mentioned then perhaps there should be other NPC enforcers in other lands.  Although I'm not entirely adverse to this, I would point out this is already greatly the case in many camps.  In the desert you will interact with many, many aggro NPCs.  Not to mention, we are talking about an inner city area.  And while I don't think it's as simple as a crim-code, I do think that it is a good idea and would act as a deterrent to PCs constantly attacking and even killing Westsiders on their own territory.  Should they be able to try?  Sure.  Should they be able to kill Guilders on the East or Southside of town with out these negatives, and with the southside crim-code in fact working for them?  Sure.  But Guilders on Guilder territory is a different matter.


I'd also like to see some kind of throwing knife course and combat infrastructure.  Perks like that.  I don't want everyone to feel like their first stop HAS to be the Byn.  It saddens me when someone's like I want to play a gritty rinther, rawr!  Sooooo, I'm going southside to the Byn to become some kind of badass and then come terrorize the alleys.  How much better would it be if people could seek out the Guild to train them up to be a badass baddie?  Then they can start playing their gritty rinther straight away.  This would also cut down on the constant need to make up reasons to battle it out with NPCs to level.

On to the matter of poisons which we briefly discussed here and then we had this discussion in Discord after the thread was closed.  Shabago disclosed that there were currently 10 perraine glands IG which does not also account for the weapons poisoned with this poison.  I'd be willing to wager there are at least 10 or more perraine poisoned weapons IG to boot.  On any given week night we have about 30 - 40 players on.  That means that at any given time there's enough harvested and ready perraine IG to kill off a fourth to half the player base.  I would not qualify that as rare much less incredibly rare.

Peraine:
   One of the more rare poisons, it causes the muscles of the body to
contract and lock tightly, essentially paralyzing the victim.
Fortunately, this poison is not widely used, as its sources are not
widely known.



This is where I have another problem with the game meta at present.  Either the documentation needs to state perraine has become more prolific or we need to find a way to make it not prolific.  It's clear to me when I read the documentation that perraine was meant to be not only a rarity but an extreme rarity.  I also don't think it was staff's intent for the market to ever become so saturated.  In my mind if there are 40 people on regularly there should be maybe one or two glands around.  Five MAX if someone is hoarding them.  To have 10 - 20 perraine items which offers an all but guaranteed skill to people of almost any skill level in the right situation - that's problematic.

This creates a dynamic IG where insta-kill ability is too wide spread.  The code/combat focused PCs intent on using this can effectively begin to police someone for every petty infringement.  Instead of oh shit I can't believe he had that poison!  He must have really, really had it coming.

Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption, but it seems to me the intent of the game was to make insta-killing a hard thing to achieve.  Backstab was never a skill that was readily available to most character guilds.  And there were strict rules on its use when trying to level this skill.  No backstabbing animals.  No fleeing and backstabbing again if avoidable.  I came up in this game with the mindset that insta-kill should be rare and achievable only through a set of obstacles.  I also came up in this game believing if dignitaries, leaders and so forth of any clan were killed in a way that was not accomplished discreetly consequences would arise.

At this point, with some digging and a couple of large a PC that has only been around a little while can easily obtain a poison that is supposed to be OP and ungodly rare.  But as we can see, it's not rare.  There is no cure.  There is no time to take a cure.  We discussed a few solutions to this.  We discussed this poison taking some time to kick in like a neuropoison that might first slow it's victim.  We talked about poison deteriorating like spice.  The deterioration of poison makes far more sense than spice deteriorating since poison is always derived from organic matter.  We talked about the potential to fail and poison yourself if you use a blade with poison and you don't have the poison skill at all or a very high poison skill.  We talked about the risk to poison yourself when harvesting poison.    We talked about poison hubs moving and migrating like the way deposits arrive randomly.  Clearly poison needs to be less prolific, there needs to be more risk to harvesting it, using it and certain poisons should not be so OP. Honestly, I would be happy if perraine was removed from the game entirely.  It's too easy to get and too easy to use on someone who won't even be able to save against it.  Riev suggested making the OP poisons need three different types of skills to process it into something useful.  Like needing a poisoner, brewing and someone with master cooking something.  Basically anything to make this poison less easy to obtain and use.  I would say the same for herma.

As it stands right now the use of poisons has become so wide spread.  Many guilds can use them straight out the gate.  Meanwhile, cures have become more rare and difficult to create.  The game is imbalanced in this regard to my eyes.  And as pointed out, poisons are sourced more often than not by hunters, when those in the cities have no way to source anything on their own.

In my eyes I just think, what makes sense in the game?  Noble tavern is safe and privileged.  Dingy tavern not.  Sneaky types do kills in the cities with easy, Guild is a crime organization with a big, scary backing running northwest side.  Perraine (according to docs) rare, super rare.  If this isn't being reflected in the game how do we fix it?

TLDR:

-Let the Guild engage in quasi-law enforcement and have hidden Guild NPCs throughout the rinth, more heavily armed in Guild dense areas ready to save and attack the opponents of mid to high level guilders

-I don't hate the northwest side crim-code idea

-Make areas in the game that should be hard to infiltrate or kill leaders reflective of that in the Guild and beyond

-If poisons are supposed to be incredibly rare, please look at the idea there might be in issue if there is enough of an insta-kill poison in the game to kill off a huge chunk of the pb

-Consider making the difficulty of sourcing poisons higher and have it involve far more risk because as it stands IG this insta-kill magick pill is acting as a nuke to police every little social infraction - it is killing depth of story, and making RP heavy players beholden to Code/PK heavy players

-Please help us define rare, do you believe perraine is actually are at present? I do not.  Do you think Guilders should be able to source more poisons some how, or be narrowed in on that market?

-Give Guild PCs a way to train their skills more effectively
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 19, 2019, 03:33:44 PM
Quote
Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption, but it seems to me the intent of the game was to make insta-killing a hard thing to achieve.  Backstab was never a skill that was readily available to most character guilds.  And there were strict rules on its use when trying to level this skill.  No backstabbing animals.  No fleeing and backstabbing again if avoidable.  I came up in this game with the mindset that insta-kill should be rare and achievable only through a set of obstacles.  I also came up in this game believing if dignitaries, leaders and so forth of any clan were killed in a way that was not accomplished discreetly consequences would arise.

I honestly don't know where that assumption comes from. I always assumed the game was brutal and life was cheap, and death could be around the corner. There's a few misconceptions here about 'Insta Kill'.

-Backstab and Sap aren't infallible even at master levels, they do fail, and rarely OHK unless you are real strong, or the person is already damaged or has stun loss.
-Peraine is far from infallible, especially now-a-days. There's a chance of it unlocking based on endurance and if they are hit in combat. I've peraine'd people only to see them jump up and run off before my kill timer expires.
-Heramide is far from infallible, especially now-a-days. Cures are more widespread and people know how to make them, and when to take them.
-Cures are hella not rare. Almost every dick, tom, and harry has a set of cures these days. It's just a matter of them being less predictable and more confusing, depending on who made them. It just takes one or two "Herbalist PCs" to make enough cures for all of Allanak.

--

An 'Insta Kill' isn't as common as I think you think it is...More common is just, well, death. Multiple PC's ganging up on another PC. That PC being in a locked room, and unable to escape. A PC being ambushed or not paying attention, so they don't have a chance to type 'flee' through the adrenaline.

PKing people is actually pretty difficult unless you are both skilled and know what you are doing, and also prepare for it, or the victim has little to no chance to escape. It also isn't a guarantee, no matter how skilled your PC is. More often than not, two PCs meeting in the Wasteland for a showdown, someone will be able to flee and survive. In the Labyrinth, there are so many rooftop/escape routes that it is usually the case as well, unless you have multiple PCs and/or the drop on someone.

I'm not sure what the alternative to 'Insta Kill' as you put it is -- Never kill? Sometimes maim? People will die in a Permadeath game, even very skilled and talented PCs. I've had many of my PCs that I adored get one shotted by an arrow when they weren't expecting it, backstabbed when they weren't expecting it, or ganged up on in an apartment. Sure, it sucks in the moment, but I honestly fume for a bit and then make a new PC and rinse and repeat. I'm so glad this MUD isn't a 'PK By Permission' MUD like some other RP-Enforced MUDs are -- I can't imagine playing in that world.

--

As to the Guild -- There are enforcer NPCs that will assist clanned Guild members. They just aren't always around when you need them, but sometimes they are.

I've seen the Guild very efficiently train people with training weapons / on a schedule like the Byn, and retain people from going Southside by actively providing the service.

Ultimately it's a very PC based clan. Depending on who is running it and who is in it, it changes the dynamic entirely. I'd hate to see the Guild Documentationed to death, or have enforced crime code. Part of the fun of the Guild is getting even with people who cross you and don't take you seriously.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 19, 2019, 03:51:59 PM
I'm still unconvinced either way. I've seen the Guild have teeth, but it was dependent on a highly-skilled PC with high playtimes.
I've felt the Guild was powerless, because I rolled a guild_warrior who was never given keys to the kingdom, as it were, so there were no spots to do "training" of any kind.
I've seen people have no idea what kind of things the Guild can offer and, when TOLD what could be offered, don't want it. Spice is an RP prop and is a rarity, assassinations are often given to indies and unaffiliated people because they're cheaper and come with "less strings attached".

I've even have staff say "Why not take a contract on someone's life for 2000 coins, then offer the target 4000 to turn it around!"
Real professional.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bast on September 19, 2019, 03:58:51 PM
I think the arboretum should be in the nobles quarter. Also there should be shops in there and those shops should be the only shops that sell silk. Also if you come into that part of town without silks on and/or house colors NPC mobs should auto spot you and haul you to right to the Arena..and there should no hide no sneak rooms all over the place.

Seriously this is how this entire conversation sounds to me. The Rinth is basically a fortress for crooks. If anything it should get nerfed. Stabby sneaks in this game are still way O.P. You really only have to worry about your own murdering you in there as the guard and Templar will rarely do a thing if involves walking into that part of town.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Tiktak on September 19, 2019, 04:04:34 PM
I'm over here support-applauding both Bast and Riev.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: lairos on September 19, 2019, 04:09:29 PM
A few things from this thread that have stood out to me that I feel need to throw some different things out to...

Not a single sponsored role is 100% protected. Not a guild "boss", not a Merchant Family, not even a Noble or Templar. Despite the amount of favors you have with your higher ups? If you piss off the wrong people, do something wrong or push the others in power the wrong way? Expect to be thrown to the wolves. Expect bribes to be passed to your Seniors, in whatever scenario, to let shit happen or allow it to go through. Expect certain passes to be allowed for other things since the alternative could be worse for the organizations or Houses.

It doesn't matter if you are playing against the grain or appear to be beloved. Expect as some point that you are going to be murdered, betrayed or otherwise. These are some of the highlights of the game.

Never expect to be safe -anywhere-. I've seen Nobles and Merchant family members killed in their Estates. I've seen people get killed in near every single tavern. I've seen people killed in the middle of massive large events where they are the one announcing. You are NEVER safe! Is a Noble or Templar safer than your standard commoner? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean they too can't meet their end.

I've seen poison of various types widely used and it is never a 100% thing. It absolutely can give a massive edge, but it is never a guaranteed kill.

In the direction between Allanak itself vs the Rinth? It was already mentioned there are ways a criminal can maneuver around soldiers to do things and the same thing applies in the Labyrinth, but it nowhere near can touch the same numbers as Allanak as a whole. The Guild has enforcers around and will assist their own if seen, much like soldiers. There are also muggers and other things present. The difference is you can't really compare the mafia to the AOD. At the end of the day one allows another to exist for reasons we'll not dive into.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 04:23:19 PM
Stuff.

I did not say killing people should be rare.  I said being able to kill people in five seconds flat for any infraction without any virtual IG consequence should be pretty rare and hard to achieve so far as my knowledge as to the intent of coded skill use.  A game should have checks and balances.  So again, I'd love to hear from the staff as whether insta-killing was ever supposed to be wide spread. IRL I can not walk into Amazon and stab Jeff Bezos or any of his employees for that matter where others can see and hear without some kind of consequence.  I'm asking for a smidge of realism be applied to the Guild instead of just saying, "Meh, it's lawless."  It's like no, it isn't.  Either the clan is its own virtual living breathing thing that you should not want to piss off or... it's a shallow reflection of whatever PC calls themselves boss at the time.

Life is cheap.  And people should constantly be trying to undermine and potentially PK one another.  That doesn't mean that 10 glands of perraine already harvested, the ability to harvest more and numerous blades already tainted with the stuff in a game that has 40 people on regularly is rare.  The documentation says these poisons are extremely rare.  I'd really not rather focus on hearsay and you deciding that your experience in the game should equal my experience in the game.  I don't need the game, skills or The Guild explained to me.  Mathematically, that is absolutely not rare.

Yes, all things are possible with boot strap pulling, elbow grease, stars aligning etc.  I am talking about creating a realistic infrastructure here that properly reflect the game world.

You don't know what my alternative to insta-kill is?  I'll tell you.  This is a coded game.  There should not be skills that most people have zero percent chance escaping that can be easily attainable in a few weeks of play.  PKing the majority of time should require RP, triangulation, deception, stealth, or despotic levels of power to achieve --- WITHOUT consequences.  If you kill a leader publicly that should bear RP repercussions in a RP game, just as it would IRL.  Or you can go hacking down someone in broad daylight at the Gaj and walk out and be detained.  I want RP to be fostered and I think insta-killing someone should take overcoming many obstacles, training and so forth.  I think PK should be common, BUT being able to kill PCs in about five seconds flat without despotic level of power and intense, long hours of training?  ---  far less so.

I am talking about a game meta with risk and reward factors.  I am also talking about taking the virtual world and documentation into account to make the meta more realistic.  I thought I made that pretty clear with my above post.  You can't "have the fun of getting even" Veleka because most people are going to insta-kill the fuck out of you and the game has made that easier than ever.  There is no tit for tat.  It's just this OP item being used as a nuke IG.  That's where I have the problem.

What do I want to see?  Not less murder, corruption or betrayal.  I want RP to be the standard, backed by code.  I want stories to be able to breath and have depth.  I want the game world to react in ways that are realistic and immersion fostering.  And I don't want to wish up to need to get those results.  Some people play this game to get a rise out of coded hunting and PK kills.  I don't.  It's fine that they do and I don't.  But the game needs to lend itself to RP and characters that want to RP and create story lines, otherwise they will constantly be policed by coded players who's primary go from the start of every character is to achieve insta-kill abilities as fast as possible.  If that's their gig bully for them.  But the game shouldn't make that easy for them to accomplish.  These same characters are not always great at enforcing the lore and RP so you have a game that becomes tilted towards code use instead of the story.  That is where I get frustrated.

Is there a place for assassins in game who have walked the hard path and overcome challenges to become a badass and be sent in to do their work like a subtle and discreet professional?  Yes.  But what does it mean if a snooty aide turned their nose up at you one time and the instant reaction is that they are soon perrained down?  What does it mean if any social infraction is met with insta-death?  What does it mean if there's enough poison IG that could potentially be used to make someone prone in one hit to kill half the PB that's supposedly "rare."  What does it mean when this level of insta-kill is increasingly common.  What does it mean when the dingiest tavern in the land is five times safer to sit at than the ritziest tavern?  What does it mean when someone can walk into someone else's camp and dispatch someone in their own territory without consequence?  I want the code to reflect the game world and the documentation and the lore.  That is what I want.

I've already stated I want the Guild to be PC run, and have advocated for the return of PC senior leadership.  My post made it pretty clear as to what I'm for and what I'm not for.  Not for the Guild to be policed.  Not for PK to go away.  But for there to be room in the game for players who want to shake things up a little, and for insta-kill (which is extremely powerful) to be challenging to obtain and rare to execute.  I don't think that's unreasonable.  I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that if the docs say a poison is extremely rare it be EXTREMELY rare.  I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the code to reflect the privilege and safety of nobility in certain watering holes on a fundamental level.

I will remove myself from this thread after posting the following from the documentation itself ---

Quote
Conceptually, the Guild is a medieval mafia in most applications of its affairs and business. The clan itself has been around for as many years as one can remember, always hiding from the Templarate's keen eye. Even though not always seen blatantly, the Guild demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners, and other organizations. No one seems to know much about the intricate affairs of this highly secretive group, but there is no doubt that they have eyes and ears almost everywhere in town hiding in the darkest corners and even among many other organizations. The Guild is rumored to work out of the Westside of the infamous network of abandoned alleys and streets in northern Allanak known as the Labyrinth; however, their reach seem to have no limits when it concerns their sinister business.

The Guild has ran fine thus far to some degree.  However, I do think it at times has been the source of problems or had problems on maintaining activity.  I think there are a few things IG that don't properly reflect the world socially in Allanak.  I absolutely condone PK just as I condone RP.  What I'm saying here is that I'm looking at the documentation for poisons and the Guild and other organizations and I consistently do not see them being reflected in the game socially or codedly.  To me, this weakens my immersion and I struggle to create any depth of story with the lore because coded pursuits seem to consistently trump this.  I feel like I'm asking some pretty valid questions that are, and have been, way over simplified since I've returned and started asking them.  My investment in this topic is not new.

I also do not disagree with Bast, because as I say, the Guild itself has often times been the source of some of these very issues. It and sneaky characters will continue to be.  There is a lot of room for there to be problems created by users of certain sneaky skills. Although I would like to see a place where nobles and commoners can congregate.  I think that would be more achievable if there were perks for commoners and nobles alike for going to such an establishment.  Again, how can we codedly create those and build a more realistic world that enforces good RP decisions?  That's is the question I'm asking.

I think the target is going to continue to move and all we can do is try to make the game code more reflective of its environment, enforce social mores, and make insta-killing a more realistic challenge.  I want the climb to being able to gank in five seconds with zero repercussions to be harder for all guilds. Sneaky, hunter, whoever it is.  But I also wouldn't mind the Guild having a training area where they can practice a skill like throw.  I am not adverse to PK.  I am adverse to overly easy almost instant pk that diminishes RP and IG immersion.  Like making it so that people can't walk down the streets safely?  One hundred percent for.  Take ALL of the soldiers off the streets at night as far as I care.  Making it so that people don't congregate in the taverns and RP and get interaction because they're scared of instakill?  Don't like.  Because it hurts RP.

My biggest point is that good code can foster RP.  Why don't people break into and kill people in Kadius and Oash every day?  Because the compound represents an actual coded challenge.  Why do people not just kill people in broad daylight right by a soldier?  Because the code is effectively representing a realistic consequence if you make a dumb choice.  I want to know how we can go deeper with that.  How can the code foster RP and storylines.  That's what we should be shooting for IMHO.  I am just as much an advocate for making certain places more risky as I am for making others that foster role play and make sense less risky.

I truly believe there can be a good balance between PK and RP but I don't think the game is in a good spot for that at the moment, and I've made it pretty clear I've had concerns about that since returning.

***Modified the portions where alluding to IC events, relative or not, seemed a bit much.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 19, 2019, 04:23:46 PM
I wanna address these points.

Quote
-Let the Guild engage in quasi-law enforcement and have hidden Guild NPCs throughout the rinth, more heavily armed in Guild dense areas ready to save and attack the opponents of mid to high level guilders
I mean this seems kind of a strange request to make. Should we do the same for other clans? How do you decide who gets what?


Quote
-I don't hate the northwest side crim-code idea
Implementing a crim-code in the Labyrinth would ruin one of the only things that makes it what it is. It would probably drive what few players do play there even further away.

Quote
-Make areas in the game that should be hard to infiltrate or kill leaders reflective of that in the Guild and beyond
Who determines what is hard to infiltration? Obviously a 20 foot wall with glass shards on the top is going to be harder to infiltrate than the labyrinth which is just crumbling buildings and snaking streets? Comparing the two is absurd.
Quote
-If poisons are supposed to be incredibly rare, please look at the idea there might be in issue if there is enough of an insta-kill poison in the game to kill off a huge chunk of the pb
I've never encountered poison to this degree, to me it is quite rare in game. If we're basing rarity off our own personal experiences mine thus far has been that these poisons are rare. So who is right when the evidence proposed is anecdotal.
Quote
-Consider making the difficulty of sourcing poisons higher and have it involve far more risk because as it stands IG this insta-kill magick pill is acting as a nuke to police every little social infraction - it is killing depth of story, and making RP heavy players beholden to Code/PK heavy players
We're all beholden to the code. That's why this is a MUD and not a MUSH.
Quote
-Please help us define rare, do you believe perraine is actually are at present? I do not.  Do you think Guilders should be able to source more poisons some how, or be narrowed in on that market?
It is rare thus far from my experience. I believe staff can actually look and see exactly how much is in game and speak whether it is 'rare' or not?
Quote
-Give Guild PCs a way to train their skills more effectively
Why? What makes this clan any different or special compared to other clans or for instance d-elf tribes? I think we need an even playing field when it comes to this. I don't even know how you would go about making it 'easier' to train guild pcs?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 04:33:28 PM
I wanna address these points.

Quote
-Let the Guild engage in quasi-law enforcement and have hidden Guild NPCs throughout the rinth, more heavily armed in Guild dense areas ready to save and attack the opponents of mid to high level guilders
I mean this seems kind of a strange request to make. Should we do the same for other clans? How do you decide who gets what?

We already have this for other clans ergo the crim-code southside, or not being to attack clanned soldier PCs without getting wanted.  As far as who decides who gets this I guess that would be the imms.

Quote
-I don't hate the northwest side crim-code idea
Implementing a crim-code in the Labyrinth would ruin one of the only things that makes it what it is. It would probably drive what few players do play there even further away.

Because people can't kill the members of a feared criminal organization on their own territory easily?
 
Quote
-Make areas in the game that should be hard to infiltrate or kill leaders reflective of that in the Guild and beyond
Who determines what is hard to infiltration? Obviously a 20 foot wall with glass shards on the top is going to be harder to infiltrate than the labyrinth which is just crumbling buildings and snaking streets? Comparing the two is absurd.
Quote

Um, I would say your typical GMH, noble and Tzai Byn compounds = all pretty hard to infiltrate without risk.

-If poisons are supposed to be incredibly rare, please look at the idea there might be in issue if there is enough of an insta-kill poison in the game to kill off a huge chunk of the pb
I've never encountered poison to this degree, to me it is quite rare in game. If we're basing rarity off our own personal experiences mine thus far has been that these poisons are rare. So who is right when the evidence proposed is anecdotal.
Quote
-Consider making the difficulty of sourcing poisons higher and have it involve far more risk because as it stands IG this insta-kill magick pill is acting as a nuke to police every little social infraction - it is killing depth of story, and making RP heavy players beholden to Code/PK heavy players
We're all beholden to the code. That's why this is a MUD and not a MUSH.
Quote
-Please help us define rare, do you believe perraine is actually are at present? I do not.  Do you think Guilders should be able to source more poisons some how, or be narrowed in on that market?
It is rare thus far from my experience. I believe staff can actually look and see exactly how much is in game and speak whether it is 'rare' or not?
Quote

If you actually read my post you would see that I posted that Shabago said there were ten glands already harvested IG plus poisons already in game.  Even with ten glands and a player base of about 40 per night that's already enough to kill a fourth of the PB which is not rare.

-Give Guild PCs a way to train their skills more effectively
Why? What makes this clan any different or special compared to other clans or for instance d-elf tribes? I think we need an even playing field when it comes to this. I don't even know how you would go about making it 'easier' to train guild pcs?

Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 19, 2019, 04:38:21 PM
I'm confused. Why does it matter if someone can kill you in 5 seconds, or in 1 minute, or 5 minutes? The ultimate result is that PC being dead, regardless of how long it took.

The only difference I can see is 'Ability for Victim PC to survive and get away' as opposed to 'Victim having little to no chance of escaping death'.

PK at the end of the day ends up with one (or more) dead PCs, regardless of how long it took to get them there, or the means of their death.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 19, 2019, 04:41:26 PM
Quote
Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 19, 2019, 04:43:30 PM
Quote
Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.

It's literally above the Folley.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 04:46:03 PM
Quote
Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.

It's literally above the Folley.

First of all that's IC info and second that's incorrect.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 19, 2019, 04:46:50 PM

My biggest point is that good code can foster RP.  Why don't people break into and kill people in Kadius and Oash every day?  Because the compound represents an actual coded challenge.  Why do people not just kill people in broad daylight right by a soldier?  Because the code is effectively representing a realistic consequence if you make a dumb choice.  I want to know how we can go deeper with that.  How can the code foster RP and storylines.  That's what we should be shooting for IMHO.

I truly believe there can be a good balance between PK and RP but I don't think the game is in a good spot for that at the moment, and I've made it pretty clear I've had concerns about that since returning.

Your examples are ways of code reducing conflict, not increasing it. I fail to see how that fosters a deeper storyline.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 19, 2019, 04:49:10 PM
Quote
Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.

It's literally above the Folley.

First of all that's IC info and second that's incorrect.

How is that incorrect? It's an area that the Guild has used for training, and others that are actually IC. It's a rooftop in the Labyrinth. ScArY.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 04:52:18 PM

My biggest point is that good code can foster RP.  Why don't people break into and kill people in Kadius and Oash every day?  Because the compound represents an actual coded challenge.  Why do people not just kill people in broad daylight right by a soldier?  Because the code is effectively representing a realistic consequence if you make a dumb choice.  I want to know how we can go deeper with that.  How can the code foster RP and storylines.  That's what we should be shooting for IMHO.

I truly believe there can be a good balance between PK and RP but I don't think the game is in a good spot for that at the moment, and I've made it pretty clear I've had concerns about that since returning.

Your examples are ways of code reducing conflict, not increasing it. I fail to see how that fosters a deeper storyline.

Quote
con·flict
noun
/ˈkänˌflikt/
a serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one.

Please tell me more about how a dead character can instigate conflict by being snuffed from a skill in under 10 seconds that they have no possible way to save against?  Looking at the definition above I would argue instantly dead PCs have no way to instigate the conflict you speak of.  And I also reject the argument that constant, meaningless PK executed with cheese without any thought given to other alternatives or virtual surroundings by players constantly in pursuit of coded bonuses and leveling as opposed to RP is the prime way to deepen a story line.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 19, 2019, 04:56:52 PM
I think that's an oversimplification.

Many plots are fueled by the deaths of other PCs.

Conflict can range beyond one or two PCs, to entire Houses.

There are motivations behind PKs beyond wantonly killing people most of the time.

You say you are 'all for PK', but how does it matter if the person is dead after 5 seconds, or after a minute? Their part in the story is over. You are correct in stating that a dead PC can rarely resolve the conflict that's already been resolved for them.

I think you are 'all for alternatives to PK', which is fine, but let's call it what it actually is. There are alternatives to conflict resolution without resorting to PK. Sometimes they are effective. Sometimes they aren't an option.

I don't think there is constant, meaningless PK executed with cheese without any thought given to other alternatives. I think that's far too black and white for the grey world of ArmageddonMUD and what takes place in game. I think it is also somewhat degrading to think that poorly of the player base. Sure, there's a few bad apples. But more or less, people have RP in mind when they are executing the code behind their PC. You may not be privy to all that information, particularly in a swift PK, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: ShaLeah on September 19, 2019, 05:06:56 PM
If anything I'd like to make the Rinth even more deadly.

1) I like the idea of crossing territories dangerous to the wrong race. Moar conflict. Moar dead elf babies to practice backstab. 100% behind that.
2) I am 100% against making it less dangerous in favor of player happiness and chatacter longevity. There are roles that last longer. A rinth ANYTHING is not one of those roles.
3) I am 100% against pc leaders who spend all their time hiding in their safe zones not to get killed.
4) #bringbackrealspice
5) The Rinth is an area of CRIME. Part of being part of a criminal family is betrayal. I don't know that the code acting like piddly ass rinth bosses are templars is even in the realm of sane on Zalanthas. They aren't militia/soldiers/upstanding citizens. They are criminals. Live by the cut throat, die by it criminals. 


The Rinth has teeth. They bite. Don't poke the monster you're not trained to control.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 19, 2019, 05:08:01 PM
When my last rinthi died. The group I ran with was in possession of 10+ heramide objects and 20+ perraine objects. That was well over a year ago, so things change of course, but ... yeah.
At one point, there was an indie group running around 2-3 years ago, that had over 30 heramide objects around.

Now things changed. People died and the objects they had were lost, some got used. The sources of heramide objects were changed. But to say that someone is immortal is making me giggle inside. Admittedly, killing someone important is also very dangerous and requires you to borderline suicide to pull off a kill. We're talking vs Templars. Or ... organize a proper hit, but that requires 2-3 moderately to well skilled people who can work in sync.

Technically the guild does have a well protected compound. With hidden exits and a LOT of powerful NPCs inside to guard against intruders. The problem is that the compound is "not" a tavern. And tavern is the main place of business.

Also, keep in mind, if you give too much power to the guild boss, then the guild boss becomes a sponsor role only application. While right now, ANYBODY can become a guild boss. You have a crew that supports you and you can convince the guild that you can be profitable to them? Boom. You're the boss. Everyone on your crew dies and you're the lowest rank member of the clan, but you DO have access to clan only rooms? BOOM! You're the boss. As long as you can gather people around you into a crew that follows you. Nevermind that if you're compared to Byn, your rank is an equavelent of a Trooper AT BEST, sometimes even less then that.


A lot about the rinth is "Fake it till you make it" Act tough and you're assumed authority. A lot of people realize that OOCly, but ICly they dont and sometimes dont want to bother with it. They're willing to pay off that vague concept of "the guild", while in reality it's just some shmuck pulling protections who couldnt kill a byn trooper if he got paid for it.

While that is nice and all. In the end it is still all fake and the main cause of a con artist being caught is when the con artist starts believing their own cons. You're a rinthi crime boss and you act all tough? It'll fly for awhile, but then you will eventually face dive into a situation where your opponents ARE tough.

A lot of times, the rinth is filled with loners. People who abhor being part of the clan and like to play independently. Which is FINE, but if you're a crime boss and you want a crew to do shit with. You actually need reliable people to do that shit. And these reliable people need to be reliable enough to meet often and spar and train with each other. There are places out there that you can do it in. And it HAS been done before. Is it safe? Not really. But it's up to you to provide that security. There 'are' ways to do it.

There is a reason why some of the long lived ... guild bosses were actually very very very squishy in coded combat and yet were perfectly able to pull shit off. One such reason is that they knew they were squishy and made effort to not be in situations where their squishiness was put to a test.

Another common defence of the rinth is repercussions. You killed off someone important in the guild. Great. Nobody stopped you because it's a lawless area and well. Because it's a fucking lawless area. What's next? Are you a nobody independent? Then you're no different then a guild boss, even worse off. So the only thing the guild can do is kill you and your family. Are you a member of a House? Weeeell then. Because if that person you killed is a Boss, then he had a crew. And that crew is intrinsically motivated to get revenge. Afterall if they dont, then it sends a message to everyone that they cant protect their own. And that crew is most likely full of shadies and sneaks and pick pockets and so on. Suddenly, that house is assaulted. Their members keep losing keys, swords, mount tickets. The price for selling information about your house to your rivals drops. Yeah. Militarily you're probably stronger then all of them. But they went to the mattresses. Good luck chasing them around the sewers while they pick off all of the houses squishy members.

Unless ... the crew doesnt care. Whether it was paid off, or they just dont plain care. And if they dont, then you my dear dead crime boss, was not a boss at all. Just some schmuck running a con.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lutagar on September 19, 2019, 05:17:57 PM
-Backstab and Sap aren't infallible even at master levels, they do fail, and rarely OHK unless you are real strong, or the person is already damaged or has stun loss.

It's not infallible but the removal of master scan and listen for all but a few classes has made it more powerful than ever.

Miscreants that know what they're doing are basically invisible and will shadow you with 0 risk until you go somewhere it's safe to attack you. Even if you do get away (you probably won't) they'll escape, and do it again, and no one can stop them because they can't be seen.

Not got certain spells or master scan? There isn't a counter other than never leaving your clan HQ or staying offline until they die to something unrelated.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 19, 2019, 05:49:19 PM
Miscreants don't get those skills to master and those that do, don't get master stealth.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Brokkr on September 19, 2019, 06:29:12 PM
What tends to happen with stuff like Peraine is you get a skilled group or person and they farm this stuff like crazy, and all of a sudden you have a massive influx of it.  Then it sits in 3-5 storerooms of clans/persons as it is gradually used up.

There was at some point an egregious increase in the number of these objs around, which created really crazy stockpiles that were dealt with.

If there were changes to things to mitigate some of this and make it more difficult to obtain the really rare poisons, I expect that the changes would be gradual and you wouldn't be told about them.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 19, 2019, 06:33:03 PM
What tends to happen with stuff like Peraine is you get a skilled group or person and they farm this stuff like crazy, and all of a sudden you have a massive influx of it.  Then it sits in 3-5 storerooms of clans/persons as it is gradually used up.

There was at some point an egregious increase in the number of these objs around, which created really crazy stockpiles that were dealt with.

If there were changes to things to mitigate some of this and make it more difficult to obtain the really rare poisons, I expect that the changes would be gradual and you wouldn't be told about them.

Make it more difficult to get (I think it is pretty difficult already) and in 6 months you'll have a thread complaining about it.

I'm not saying this in jest either. I am saying that no matter what you do you won't please everyone in instances such as this. Either you make it nigh impossible or difficult.. difficult is subjective and the only ways I know to get it is already 'difficult' not 'easy' by any means.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Hauwke on September 19, 2019, 06:45:56 PM
The people who farm them enough that they single handedly supply an entire city worth of backstabbery should probably not do that. Consider that just because you can, does not mean you should.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 07:56:00 PM
I feel like it's funny because those or you advocating for PK would be pissed if an imm was like oh... You killed someone publicly on their own territory?  Be prepared for the imms to animate NPCs to come after your ass.  It goes both ways.  I'm not advocating for a lack of PK.  I'm advocating for realistic consequences to coded abilities that ignore the virtual game world and making insta kill codely challenging.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 07:59:27 PM
If anything I'd like to make the Rinth even more deadly.

1) I like the idea of crossing territories dangerous to the wrong race. Moar conflict. Moar dead elf babies to practice backstab. 100% behind that.
2) I am 100% against making it less dangerous in favor of player happiness and chatacter longevity. There are roles that last longer. A rinth ANYTHING is not one of those roles.
3) I am 100% against pc leaders who spend all their time hiding in their safe zones not to get killed.

We are advocating for the same things.  Leaders especially guild leaders that actually want to play outside if their compounds are too at risk.  This meta encourages leaders to stay behind closed doors.  That's the problem.  It's inhibiting RP.  A year from now I will happily provide extensive ig examples.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 19, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
I feel like it's funny because those or you advocating for PK would be pissed if an imm was like oh... You killed someone publicly on their own territory?  Be prepared for the imms to animate NPCs to come after your ass.  It goes both ways.  I'm not advocating for a lack of PK.  I'm advocating for realistic consequences to coded abilities that ignore the virtual game world and making insta kill codely challenging.

Actually no, I’d be just fine with that too.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: lairos on September 19, 2019, 08:32:31 PM
Pretty sure this already happens and has been happening. Explain to me the difference of pking a guilder in their territory or a jaxa pah in theirs with pking an aod sergeant, noble or templar in theirs?

Each has chances of having coded problems arise. Each have staff response, immediate or not. Each has player response to whatever that may be as well. You point out you are ok with pk, but your not ok with assassinations which doesn't seem very real itself and would be a huge detrement to criminals themselves actually.

I've watched high profile pcs in organizations walk around and be seen just fine. It's a matter of the actions of your character and others that determines outcomes.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 19, 2019, 08:49:32 PM
There were instances when an elf group have massacred guild bosses west side, only to have NPC muls step up and remind the elves that the guild is larger then a group of PCs. But that usually happens when the scales are uneven. Ie a 6 month old group of elf PCs snuffing out a second guild boss who is less then a week old. Even if that guild boss basically forced the elves to do it.  So if scales are uneven, staff does intervene. Mostly to allow the fledgling group to flourish, instead of reinforcing guild might. But when both groups have a healthy membership, or certain well reported deeds have been done to provoke this action. It is allowed to continue naturally.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 19, 2019, 09:09:42 PM
I feel like it's funny because those or you advocating for PK would be pissed if an imm was like oh... You killed someone publicly on their own territory?  Be prepared for the imms to animate NPCs to come after your ass.  It goes both ways.  I'm not advocating for a lack of PK.  I'm advocating for realistic consequences to coded abilities that ignore the virtual game world and making insta kill codely challenging.

Actually no, I’d be just fine with that too.

Then we agree on something.  I just think it'd be better to have code in place that represents this instead of needing to go to these drastic measures or having to wish up.  I am all for PK as deserved.  I have had imm animated character basically decide I needed to die.  And I did, for reasons they knew of IG and others they didn't know.  I have known people that don't even want to start RPing until they are coded badasses with perraine at their disposal.  All they want to do is RP the same stoic badass that "wins."  Almost every character, every time.  I want to see leaders out of their Estates doing shit.  If insta-kill and perraine are less prolific they can do that without having to fear every character who's been around a RL month or two and is totally code-based. 

There needs to be some breathing room for social characters and ever since I've been back to the game I don't feel like there's much.  I have a lot I could say about the current meta but ultimately I just believe that you can create an infrastructure that rewards role play and properly represents the virtual world.  This forces people that otherwise might not respect it to have to take it into consideration.  In many instances, I do not believe the honor system works and I don't believe in putting good stories in constant needless peril because we are counting on every player to acknowledge the virtual world.  We leave too much of the virtual world open to interpretation or would be abusers.

And what I'm trying to point out here is that sometimes the code is in flagrant opposition to the documentation.  I do not believe this to be malicious but I also do not believe in keeping things a certain way because "it's just been that way for awhile."  I am absolutely a proponent of making the code more deadly in dangerous in some areas.  Ergo, if you attack in the rinth you gonna get attacked by the criminal organization that runs those streets if you go after one of their own.  I would be happy if there was not a single guard on the streets at night other than a few very select locations.  I am all for making the game more dangerous in some respects.  But what I'm not in favor of is an OP insta nuke that should be exceptionally rare that is actually prolific.  I want the game to make better sense from an OOC respect.

This would be a quality of life change in regards to realism socially for all involved.  I don't get the problem requesting this.  Nobles have more privilege and safety.  Guild NPC enforcers where the Guild territory is.  Being able to backstab someone in one shot should require extensive time, code respect.  Targets at the dingy tavern should be easier PK kills.  I am NOT just flagrantly saying make the game easier to survive.  That is an over generalization.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: mansa on September 19, 2019, 11:18:21 PM
In my opinion,

It's not a labyrinth problem but a conflict problem, as there isn't easy ways to conduct it.  We're playing characters in a game, and our characters can regenerate hit points by sleeping.  The only thing that 'sticks' is death, unless you act on politics - which is where the social pecking order in Tuluk was great at.


Maybe if injuries could be more roleplayed out by everyone, people would take threats of injury more realistic - and we could use that instead of just the finality of death...

Just a thought after reading the thread.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: MeTekillot on September 19, 2019, 11:25:28 PM
If only there were a coded way to inflict lasting injuries (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54854.0.html) as another means of consequence.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Brokkr on September 20, 2019, 12:12:34 AM
I want to see leaders out of their Estates doing shit.

Is it a case of leaders that are chicken that keeps somewhere from becoming the new Trader's Inn for nobles/Templars/Aides and others?

Or is it a case of leaders logging in and being mostly afk, because they are either on their phone or at work?

Demographics and technology has changed since Trader's was a bustling place.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: tapas on September 20, 2019, 05:19:34 AM
Personally I think it's silly that a clan's security is contingent on how many skilled players are online at a time. It just leads to all kinds of gamey behavior for what is ostensibly a role playing game.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Greve on September 20, 2019, 11:12:15 AM
Personally I think it's silly that a clan's security is contingent on how many skilled players are online at a time. It just leads to all kinds of gamey behavior for what is ostensibly a role playing game.

That's a very important point. It varies from clan to clan how much of their power and importance is tied to the actual PCs, and in the case of the Guild, it's basically 100%. If there happens to be no PC with personal power in the clan, the entire clan becomes literally worthless--and that's often the case. It's a bad representation of its documentation. It's like if militia PCs were the only representatives of the law.

If you start picking fights with almost any other clan, you can bet NPCs and virtual elements will stand up against it. GMH seniors will make a presence, animated Kurac captains will weigh in, red robes have been known to get involved in assassinations, tribal NPCs can and do get animated for defense at times; but the Guild? I've never seen it. You can murder their members with impunity and publically display your lack of regard for the organization, and unless the PCs themselves can retaliate, noone will. Its supposed power and influence is completely imaginary and is never allowed to come into play.

The documentation tells us that this is a universally feared medieval mafia with a heavy hand in almost all Allanaki dealings, but there's no backing for that. If the Guild PCs can't make something happen of their own accord, it won't happen. If they can't defend the organization themselves, it won't be defended. Time and time again we see their leaders murdered sometimes in their base of operation and there's noone to do anything about it because the PC leadership is effectively the CEO of the Guild, in stark defiance of the docs. Take them out and there's probably noone left to retaliate. It operates exactly like a band of raiders.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 20, 2019, 11:17:25 AM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 20, 2019, 11:32:49 AM
There are also a various degrees of affiliations. Something you would learn by playing in the guild. There are gangs out there who "do" help guild members, but are not themselves the Guild. Moreso, the crew that you would call "The Guild" isnt "The Guild" per se either. If you want to meet real "Guild" members, you need to go to their compound. Which 'does' exist and 'is' guarded by a shitton of guards.

The crew that usually runs out of the Folley are, well at this point, it's basically find out IG. I'm sorry. But there are differences in ranks and amount of shit that the Guild gives varies by those ranks.

In general, unfortunately, the Folley crew has not risen to the points of being Fully "The Guild" for many many many years. 

But guys. If you prefer to play in a clan that has different rules. Don't play in the guild. It's a different clan. It's not a GMH. It's not a military organization. It's not a tribe. It's a unique clan on it's own. It lacks certain things that those other clans have. But it also allows some AWESOME things that other clans do not.

One such thing is that it's a lot more malleable. If you have the leadership ability, the gravitas, the skill, the strength of character, and the irl free time to make it into something GREAT. You can do that. It'll be hard and the likelyhood is low. But if you fail, you will fail because of other player's actions and not the invisible hand of vnpc leadership of the clan.

How often do you guys play in a tribe, or a house and you wonder how much can you truly affect the clan you're in? Can you really exercise some 'empire building' ambitions? Or will the Head Merchants, Senior Nobles, Elders shoot you down whenever you get too ambitious?

None of that in the guild. Be as ambitious as you like. The only glass ceiling really is when you start collecting so many magick users/psionicsts/deserter templars so that you begin attracting some SERIOUS attention from the Red/Black Templarate. Or if you go on a 'competition nullification program' and kill "every" pc in the rinth that doesnt immediately join your clan. Only then, do the guild vnpc leadership start showing itself.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 20, 2019, 11:44:40 AM

The crew that usually runs out of the Folley are, well at this point, it's basically find out IG. I'm sorry. But there are differences in ranks and amount of shit that the Guild gives varies by those ranks.

This, specifically, I want to touch on, because I've tried to hammer this point home a bit in the past and it kind of falls on deaf ears.

The Guild (which you shouldn't even know exists, its the boogeyman of children's stories) is really a conglomeration of all the human-run street gangs. They're the ones everyone pays up to, and the ones everyone is afraid will visit them when they steal the purse of the wrong person. There SHOULD BE, documentation-wise, a separation between "the PC gang that work out of the 'rinth" and "the members of the Guild, who have some oversight/wide knowledge of what is going on".

If you are a pickpocket, and you're really good at it. You join the "Crew". That Crew may pay up to The Guild at times. Might even be given work from The Guild, hopefully, because that shit pays well. But you aren't The Guild. You don't represent them. If you survive long enough with the current Crew, MAYBE you'll be brought in on some secrets of the Guild (like learning it ACTUALLY exists). Even then, you're just now knowledgeable that it exists. The Boss might not even be someone you've met yet, and The Boss might only be the lowest rung.

I feel, and this may be just me, that people "know the Guild exists" which pulls its mystery. People join "the Guild" in westside, expecting intrigue and breaking into compounds and stealing from templars and stuff... but REALLY that crew is 'just another crew'. Or should be. If that Crew is really good, maybe the Guild has ideas for them.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: ShaLeah on September 20, 2019, 12:16:29 PM
3) I am 100% against pc leaders who spend all their time hiding in their safe zones not to get killed.

We are advocating for the same things.  Leaders especially guild leaders that actually want to play outside if their compounds are too at risk.  This meta encourages leaders to stay behind closed doors.  That's the problem.  It's inhibiting RP.  A year from now I will happily provide extensive ig examples.

No. We're not.

It appears to me that you are attempting to justify a player who takes a (more) dangerous (than normal) sponsored role [such as that game backbone, the Byn Sgt or that crime 'boss'] hiding because outside the 4 walls their turf is dangerous.

You know what encourages leaders to stay behind closed doors? Players trying not to die.  Players meta'ing, choosing to hide behind code that postpones the inevitable. 

Again.  The Labyrinth is a lawless area.  Unless The Guild as a whole controls, protects, pays and feeds every single person on the west side nerfing the code to auto assist a guild boss isn't believable.

I speak from experience when I say that in the real world people NOT part of the gang will turn their backs and not see NOTHING much less help. 
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lutagar on September 20, 2019, 12:19:22 PM
The Guild (which you shouldn't even know exists, its the boogeyman of children's stories)

Where did you get this from? The docs indicate they're well known. To give a few samples:

Quote
The clan itself has been around for as many years as one can remember

Quote
Even though not always seen blatantly, the Guild demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners, and other organizations.

Quote
There is no doubt that they have eyes and ears almost everywhere in town hiding in the darkest corners and even among many other organizations.

You also said:

I feel, and this may be just me, that people "know the Guild exists" which pulls its mystery. People join "the Guild" in westside, expecting intrigue and breaking into compounds and stealing from templars and stuff... but REALLY that crew is 'just another crew'. Or should be. If that Crew is really good, maybe the Guild has ideas for them.

Docs say:

Quote
The Guild is rumored to work out of the Westside of the infamous network of abandoned alleys and streets in northern Allanak known as the Labyrinth

Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Brokkr on September 20, 2019, 12:30:29 PM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,21822.msg234146.html#msg234146 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,21822.msg234146.html#msg234146)

Not even close.  These numbers are approximate, given a lot has happened between then and now IC'ly.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 20, 2019, 12:38:35 PM
Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.

That right here is a perfect example of how secretive the guild is.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lutagar on September 20, 2019, 12:56:12 PM
Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.

That right here is a perfect example of how secretive the guild is.

The actual guild itself is so inaccessible to players it may as well be virtual.

At this point I really wish they'd make them a faction of NPC antagonists and make the folley something entirely separate.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 20, 2019, 01:55:11 PM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,21822.msg234146.html#msg234146 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,21822.msg234146.html#msg234146)

Not even close.  These numbers are approximate, given a lot has happened between then and now IC'ly.

500k is a lot! That's Roman era type of population, very cool. I wonder what the break down would be between "nak proper" and the labyrinth?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lizzie on September 20, 2019, 02:50:24 PM
Since the folley is one of the few stable organisations in the 'rinth I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to assume there's ties between the two.

That right here is a perfect example of how secretive the guild is.

The actual guild itself is so inaccessible to players it may as well be virtual.

At this point I really wish they'd make them a faction of NPC antagonists and make the folley something entirely separate.

That is just - not true.

Basically - and this is probably current, and I know it goes back over a decade, and points inbetween:

The "tradition" of the guild was not to join it. It was to be invited, or extorted, or blackmailed into it. You're brought in, you don't ask to be in. That was how it was. Sometimes, that isn't how it is. It wasn't usually very accessible, and that was the point. It was secretive, and exclusive, and no one would walk into the bar and ever ask to become a member of it.

They might be seen by a member - and noticed for doing something (or not doing something) - and then offered protection. And then watched for awhile. And maybe, possibly, given a bite to eat, a piece of crappy gear, an extra throwing knife - and if that person lived for another month without doing anything stupid, AND proved that they could actually be useful - they were given tasks. They still weren't told that the person asking them to do tasks was a guild member. That person might not even BE a guild member. It might be one of those unranked, unclanned "potential members" being given a task, which was to give someone else tasks. You never REALLY knew how deep this went. If they succeeded promptly and efficiently and discretely - maybe after another month - they were brought in to the lower actual ranks of the Guild.

That's how it was, and how it had been for a very long time.

If people are expecting otherwise now, then the Guild might not be what it was intended to be, and has turned into something else.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 20, 2019, 02:57:12 PM
If people are expecting otherwise now, then the Guild might not be what it was intended to be, and has turned into something else.

I'm guilty of this as a former Boss myself, however; its definitely got a feeling of "the 'rinthi Byn". You show up at a place, ask if anyone is hiring, become a Runner, survive for a while more, maybe become a Trooper who can finally do some work. Keep surviving, and maybe you'll become a Sergeant one day.

Its a lot more structured, somehow, than "You do something to impress me, and maybe I have a job for you". More "Let me into your stupid clan because that's why I'm here, or I'm going to go join someone elses"
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 20, 2019, 04:37:35 PM
Well. Because it's so PC oriented. Then the gang is as the gang members make it. You want it one way. You got it. You want it another way, you make it another way. No right, or wrong.  Regardless, you're just pushing sid up the chain to the big kahuna that you will never see. And it really doesnt matter how the big kahuna's are stractured, because all 'you' need to care about is having the profit to send it up the chain. How you do it is up to you.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Hauwke on September 20, 2019, 04:49:36 PM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.

I thought the population of Allanak was closer to 500,000?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: MeTekillot on September 20, 2019, 10:12:48 PM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.
The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: kahuna on September 20, 2019, 10:25:13 PM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.
The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.

Wait are you seriously comparing our modern country of 300 million people with a prehistoric fantasy world that most closely would resemble ancient babylon or mesopotamia? 
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 20, 2019, 11:03:52 PM
Here's an updated census. Instead of 2006, this one is more of 2008-2009. It's still wrong, because a lot of shit happened since then. Famine, Volcanoes, seiges, elemental attacks, some more famine, zombification of the entirety of Tuluk. Etc.


Tuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)


Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Hauwke on September 20, 2019, 11:16:59 PM
Well, there we go. I was close enough.

I imagine that if even 0.1% of the population is at the very least directly associated with the guild, then that would equate to 4.8k people. Though, that sounds awfully high for what is essentially the Mafia of Zalanthas.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 20, 2019, 11:22:33 PM
The Guild and "associated" with the guild is a rather ... loose term.

If you think the guild would spring to action over 99% of 'any' of those associations, I do believe you're mistaken.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Eluin on September 20, 2019, 11:27:50 PM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.
The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.

Wait are you seriously comparing our modern country of 300 million people with a prehistoric fantasy world that most closely would resemble ancient babylon or mesopotamia?

To add to this, I feel like the United States in particular is a pretty poor example considering I think it has the highest percentage of its population imprisoned than... any other first world country? By a rather absurd margin?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lutagar on September 20, 2019, 11:47:38 PM
These comparisons are a stretch. What's the population difference between the city and the rinth though? Or more specifically the soldiers (virtual and PC) and the guild (virtual and PC).  My crazy guess would be 100,000 people live in 'Nak of which 5000 or so are soldiers (maybe more?) and the rinth probably has what.. 1% of that population at 1000? Comparing a standing army to a criminal underworld is apples to oranges.
The United States, one of the wealthiest and most prosperous nations in the world, where it is uncommon but not unheard of to turn to crime to support oneself, has a prison population almost double that of its army, also the largest military in the world. The Guild is probably a lot bigger than you think.

Wait are you seriously comparing our modern country of 300 million people with a prehistoric fantasy world that most closely would resemble ancient babylon or mesopotamia?

To add to this, I feel like the United States in particular is a pretty poor example considering I think it has the highest percentage of its population imprisoned than... any other first world country? By a rather absurd margin?

if the echos are anything to go by Zalanthans would rather quietly starve to death in the street in en masse crowds rather than than riot or loot one of the many food stores
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Krath on September 21, 2019, 01:18:51 AM
Here is where the confusion comes in for me when talking about the original subject and I would like staff to weigh in.

Are the guild "crews" the equivalent of corner owners of the real life crips/bloods/MS-13/Latin Kings etc?
    Assuming this is the case, if one of the "corner" leaders got killed on their block, Upper management would expect the rest of their block gang
    to handle it, or they get wiped out and they move on to another crew that is capable of holding/protecting their corner and generating revenue.
    It is a dog eat dog world in the rinth/ghetto, and if you and your crew cannot handle your own shit on your own, including retribution. Someone
    fucks with your product, distribution, crew? Your crew sends a message back twice as hard. If they cannot, why would any other crews/upper
    management respect/fear/help that weak crew? Just kill the weak and promote a stronger crew in replacement.

In my earlier example, I said if people from the same neighborhood saw that someone else got attacked by an outsider they would be up in arms, that is true when that happens to civilians. When it comes to crime, and hits, you usually do not see the community getting involved, just the organizations affects.

I do not think the rinth needs more teeth, they just need less turnover. How do you do that? Play cautiously until you are a badass and can backup your organization.Help is usually offered when you do not need it, so you do not have to take risk on things that do not warrant it. Armageddon is a game of Chess, not checkers, more so in the rinth than any other place.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lizzie on September 21, 2019, 07:59:13 AM
I think a slice of the problem with regards to Krath's layout:

it assumes that the Organization has an interest in that block. If they do, then the Organization will create circumstances favorable to someone running that block. They'll take out whoever is refusing to cooperate, and bring IN someone who shows promise. They will take this person by the hand, lead him into becoming the boss of the block, and then get him started with a skeleton crew that this new blockboss can then train or replace as needed.

This step of the process doesn't happen often, or efficiently, because this step, in the game, would rely on the staff selecting their potential leader PC. They can absolutely select them from the existing PCs, no need (usually) to put out a role call on the GDB for it. But when the staff hand-picks a PC from the existing character base to take a lead role in something, that is often met with accusations of favoritism.

And yes - it IS favoritism. As it should be. The staff has a better opportunity to see the game world as a whole, and see who will be the best fit for this kind of role. Will it be an ex-Militia Initiate who discovered that the corruption of the Arm put a bad taste in his mouth, and he wants retribution? Will it be some random rinthi half-elf who is starting out, whose player's account notes show an ability to handle difficult leadership roles in the past? Will it be the "next in line" of the current crew?

And then - once the staff picks that person, the staff needs to take that person and help them dig into the role. They need to understand what the role entails, what "current situations" need addressing, and which situations exist, that can be put aside or outright ignored.

When someone moves up in the ranks by attrition, the person in that role shows up with no real understanding of anything at all, OTHER than the very limited and specific tasks that person has been given by their former boss. I think that rather than each player having to make things up as they go along, they should start out with a list of "current events."

What projects was the previous leader working on? Were they any good at it? Who were they working on it with?
Who are the other members of the crew and what are their strengths and weaknesses?
Who, in the southside, currently has problems with the Guild (or just the crew, or both)? Who can be considered in any semblance of an alliance?
Who are the "best" customers, the most reliable, long-lived, and happy to pay for the services? And what kinds of services do they typically request?
Are there any non-members who are being watched for their potential?
Who is the contact person on the east side?
Who is the contact person for the other bar and when was the last time they were seen alive?

Give folks just this kind of information to catch them up, and THEN let them run with it and make up the crew however they choose. But going into it 100% blindly just makes for way too much turnover and distrust within the ranks.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Alesan on September 21, 2019, 10:06:39 AM


And yes - it IS favoritism. As it should be.

I'm not sure this definition of favoritism is the same as the general meaning behind the term when it is used.

Picking the right PC for the role is not favoritism. Passing over the right PC for the role in favor of a friend or other preferred person's PC regardless of their suitability for the role definitely is favoritism. At least that's how I understand the term to mean.

I don't have a horse in this race, I just saw that statement and figured I'd weigh in with my view on the actual term itself.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Veselka on September 21, 2019, 01:31:47 PM
I agree with Alesan. Hiring the right person for the job because of their qualifications and ability to handle the job functions isn't favoritism, hiring the wrong person for the job because they're your brohomie and don't have the experience or qualifications is favoritism, or more accurately, nepotism.

I'm not sure how I feel about a sponsored role in leadership for the Guild. I think it's probably a good thing, particularly if the crew is lacking cohesion. A good player with decent playtimes can attract people to any clan/area by simply playing and getting shit done. On the flip side, I think it has some chance of failure or 'non starter' sort of vibes, but I think that's true across the board with sponsored roles, be it Noble, GMH Family, or a Byn Sergeant. Really depends on the atmosphere of the game at that point and what and who your organization is left holding the bag for. It can turn people off to the role to apply, accept, and then get in game and realize they have to deal with 100 headaches caused by predecessors in the role. It can be fun, but it can also be a turn off to not be able to jump into your own PC, but have to deal with past mistakes/problems another PC that is dead or stored created. I'm sure with the Guild, you can be inheriting some volatile situations, which can be fun to overcome, but without the skill or ability to change things quickly, you can end up digging yourself into a much deeper hole in the first few days played. Powerful PCs with Powerful Minion PCs can easily exact revenge on you for past grievances you didn't even create, to 'set an example of who's in charge'. I imagine being the butt end of that killing joke isn't too fun.

I also agree with Krath's assessment of crime organizations/neighborhoods where crime exists, but I'm not sure how it would apply in Zalanthas. I suppose either by making the Labyrinth even less accessible to outsiders (not just based on what you are wearing), or having some kind of code that pops new NPCs to assist Labyrinth PCs / NPCs if they are attacked, but that seems abusable and sort of unrealistic to the empty sprawl that is the Labyrinth.

I think GMH Compounds have been mentioned a few times. They aren't impregnable but it certainly is difficult. The quoted problem is 'just outside of the Folley' or what would be considered a clan spot for the Guild -- The same is true for GMH Compounds. I've seen GMH employees and Family assaulted just outside their compound with little to no repercussion or Staff involvement after the fact.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Kalden on September 21, 2019, 03:02:38 PM
I played in Guild leadership positions since way back around when I first started in 2003 (altho not really a boss till 2011) as well as more recently, when I kept a Guild boss alive for several RL years. I'll avoid talking about much in the way of specifics, but I do wish there was more staff support. The staffers who were really into the Guild and built up its lore, such as Ath or Xygax, are long gone. When I tried to do something a bit more innovative, like invest in setting up rentals in the 'rinth or building a front organization or a lounge southside to help launder money, there was resistance (from Nergal in particular). There was even resistance to relatively boring investments like sprucing up a room or paying to add another guard to the Folley. There was a window back in 2011 when the staffer (Calavera) was more supportive, but I didn't take advantage of it.

Because of the lack of writing, ICly the Guild has an oral tradition. That limits its institutional knowledge and therefore its ability to be truly organized, sophisticated, and long-lived in its planning and relationships. Also, there's a clan board, but you get access to it relatively quickly (so the deepest secrets don't go there), and your character can't really assume that they know what is in it. Ideally there would be more documentation for the most advanced players on how to survive and thrive in the 'rinth. Admittedly many players do have long-term experience, but I'm not sure how deep that is. Most players never seem to learn how to avoid dying quickly in the 'rinth. The ones who do learn the very hard way that burglars & pickpockets suck and would always die quickly relative to assassins (since their hide maxxed around assassin scan - fortunately this is changed now with the new classes), how to get access to lockpicks, and how to avoid dying (max your sneak & hide, don't meet people in unsafe places).

As far as teeth, I have mixed feelings. I've never played someone who was all that effective at assassinating people, but have played around or hired such people (e.g. Serpent way back or more recently Butcher Brons). You don't have to assassinate Templars to spread dread. There's lots of aides and merchants who are relatively unprotected. One problem, though, is that when you do this, the repercussions from the Templarate can be swift and merciless. When the Guild gets strong, the Templarate can just round up every known Guild and/or 'rinther and execute them. It's happened plenty of times - and in fact a Templar even strolled into the Folley, killed the NPCs, and broke down the back door. In an organization without an oral tradition, that Templar's extended family would be in fear for the rest of their lives, and probably their children's lives, until the debt was settled. As it is, they don't have a care in the world. However, the ultimate lessons is that you can't just have your Guild members openly strolling about and expect to last very long. At the same time, people have been successful at avoiding this type of roundup and leveraging fear. And maybe it should be hard. If you don't take advantage of the Way and meet people in person willy-nilly instead of sending agents to in-person meets, well, yeah, you're going to live a pretty short life as a criminal.

For me, the most important thing is that the Guild, or any clan, avoid being boring. If I can't invest large sums into interesting projects, then it doesn't seem like money has much point. And if money doesn't have much point and you aren't doing risky or interesting jobs, you end up doing a lot of boring typing about chopping up spice or bookkeeping about all the sids you've collected.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Greve on September 22, 2019, 10:55:33 AM
I can't help but feel like we have some people arguing that the PC chapter of the Guild is so small and irrelevant to the organization that there really wouldn't and shouldn't be a reaction when someone invariably wipes them out once or twice a year. It's like some people feel that the PC leader of the clan is little more than an errand boy for the higher-ups. While certainly the clanlead isn't the actual ruler of the Guild, they're an underboss. They're at least as significant to the organization as, say, a capo in a typical mafia setup. And, more importantly, since those above the clanlead never really come into play in any way, it stands to reason that one can assume that the veteran PC members of the Guild are included in the documentation for the clan; the parts where it says that the Guild is widely feared and has a finger in most dealings throughout the city. Because if not them, then who? It is a significant role, and the clan is meant to be taken seriously. The fact that it generally isn't is a problem that should be addressed, and players clearly haven't got the means with which to do that themselves.

A junior noble wouldn't be considered to have much of a say in the inner workings of House Borsail, but you'd still very much incur the wrath of their house if you attacked or otherwise crossed that noble. The same should be the case for the Guild. If somebody murders the current clanlead and their top henchman or whatever, and there happen to be no PCs left to do anything about it, I'd expect the clan staff to do something that at least reflects the fact that someone's preying on literal made members of the mafia. I've had Tuluki master bards animated to threaten me for singing satire about their members, so if you can murder full members of the Guild with impunity, there's a huge rift in the Reality vs. Setting department. Yet I've seen that very thing happen time and time and time again, easily 10 times over the years. I have never once seen the higher-ups of the Guild do anything whatsoever, despite having played as a full member of the clan probably about five times. And I don't just mean I haven't seen them retaliate over murder, I mean I've never seen them do anything at all, ever. For all intents and purposes, they do not exist. For all intents and purposes, the Guild really does comprise only the ragtag trio of miscreants and enforcers that make up their PC population at any given time.

We get realistic world responses if we do something crazy and there are no PCs around to react, but somehow this is strangely absent whenever someone does the annual culling of the Guild. It's the one clan for whom the documentation is the furthest from reality, and until that changes, I doubt the 'rinth will have teeth. Or a healthy population.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 22, 2019, 07:25:06 PM
Everything Greve just said.  The scariest crime organization in the Known doesn't just randomly give any schmuck access to all of their coin and holdings then watch them get cut down and go lulz oh well.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Brokkr on September 22, 2019, 10:38:19 PM
I can't help but feel like we have some people arguing that the PC chapter of the Guild is so small and irrelevant to the organization that there really wouldn't and shouldn't be a reaction when someone invariably wipes them out once or twice a year. It's like some people feel that the PC leader of the clan is little more than an errand boy for the higher-ups. While certainly the clanlead isn't the actual ruler of the Guild, they're an underboss. They're at least as significant to the organization as, say, a capo in a typical mafia setup. And, more importantly, since those above the clanlead never really come into play in any way, it stands to reason that one can assume that the veteran PC members of the Guild are included in the documentation for the clan; the parts where it says that the Guild is widely feared and has a finger in most dealings throughout the city. Because if not them, then who? It is a significant role, and the clan is meant to be taken seriously. The fact that it generally isn't is a problem that should be addressed, and players clearly haven't got the means with which to do that themselves.

A junior noble wouldn't be considered to have much of a say in the inner workings of House Borsail, but you'd still very much incur the wrath of their house if you attacked or otherwise crossed that noble. The same should be the case for the Guild. If somebody murders the current clanlead and their top henchman or whatever, and there happen to be no PCs left to do anything about it, I'd expect the clan staff to do something that at least reflects the fact that someone's preying on literal made members of the mafia. I've had Tuluki master bards animated to threaten me for singing satire about their members, so if you can murder full members of the Guild with impunity, there's a huge rift in the Reality vs. Setting department. Yet I've seen that very thing happen time and time and time again, easily 10 times over the years. I have never once seen the higher-ups of the Guild do anything whatsoever, despite having played as a full member of the clan probably about five times. And I don't just mean I haven't seen them retaliate over murder, I mean I've never seen them do anything at all, ever. For all intents and purposes, they do not exist. For all intents and purposes, the Guild really does comprise only the ragtag trio of miscreants and enforcers that make up their PC population at any given time.

We get realistic world responses if we do something crazy and there are no PCs around to react, but somehow this is strangely absent whenever someone does the annual culling of the Guild. It's the one clan for whom the documentation is the furthest from reality, and until that changes, I doubt the 'rinth will have teeth. Or a healthy population.

Most organizations are not as focused on activities that have the high potential of PK that the Guild (often) is.  Thus they get a lot more rope (to hang themselves?) in terms of stuff that can happen before the higher ups get involved.  And folks tend to get touchy when a Guild NPC is animated and single handedly wipes out most of a player clan, even though that is a realistic response. 

In short, a realistic response may not be the best response for the game.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Hauwke on September 22, 2019, 11:20:45 PM
I can't help but feel like we have some people arguing that the PC chapter of the Guild is so small and irrelevant to the organization that there really wouldn't and shouldn't be a reaction when someone invariably wipes them out once or twice a year. It's like some people feel that the PC leader of the clan is little more than an errand boy for the higher-ups. While certainly the clanlead isn't the actual ruler of the Guild, they're an underboss. They're at least as significant to the organization as, say, a capo in a typical mafia setup. And, more importantly, since those above the clanlead never really come into play in any way, it stands to reason that one can assume that the veteran PC members of the Guild are included in the documentation for the clan; the parts where it says that the Guild is widely feared and has a finger in most dealings throughout the city. Because if not them, then who? It is a significant role, and the clan is meant to be taken seriously. The fact that it generally isn't is a problem that should be addressed, and players clearly haven't got the means with which to do that themselves.

A junior noble wouldn't be considered to have much of a say in the inner workings of House Borsail, but you'd still very much incur the wrath of their house if you attacked or otherwise crossed that noble. The same should be the case for the Guild. If somebody murders the current clanlead and their top henchman or whatever, and there happen to be no PCs left to do anything about it, I'd expect the clan staff to do something that at least reflects the fact that someone's preying on literal made members of the mafia. I've had Tuluki master bards animated to threaten me for singing satire about their members, so if you can murder full members of the Guild with impunity, there's a huge rift in the Reality vs. Setting department. Yet I've seen that very thing happen time and time and time again, easily 10 times over the years. I have never once seen the higher-ups of the Guild do anything whatsoever, despite having played as a full member of the clan probably about five times. And I don't just mean I haven't seen them retaliate over murder, I mean I've never seen them do anything at all, ever. For all intents and purposes, they do not exist. For all intents and purposes, the Guild really does comprise only the ragtag trio of miscreants and enforcers that make up their PC population at any given time.

We get realistic world responses if we do something crazy and there are no PCs around to react, but somehow this is strangely absent whenever someone does the annual culling of the Guild. It's the one clan for whom the documentation is the furthest from reality, and until that changes, I doubt the 'rinth will have teeth. Or a healthy population.

Most organizations are not as focused on activities that have the high potential of PK that the Guild (often) is.  Thus they get a lot more rope (to hang themselves?) in terms of stuff that can happen before the higher ups get involved.  And folks tend to get touchy when a Guild NPC is animated and single handedly wipes out most of a player clan, even though that is a realistic response. 

In short, a realistic response may not be the best response for the game.

If they get touchy about realistic responses, that is on them. This is a role-playing game, not a power fantasy.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Greve on September 23, 2019, 12:13:21 AM
Most organizations are not as focused on activities that have the high potential of PK that the Guild (often) is.  Thus they get a lot more rope (to hang themselves?) in terms of stuff that can happen before the higher ups get involved.  And folks tend to get touchy when a Guild NPC is animated and single handedly wipes out most of a player clan, even though that is a realistic response. 

In short, a realistic response may not be the best response for the game.

Well, I put it to you that other than the fundamental design of the clan, the main reason that the Guild has this "high potential of PK" is that there's just nothing else for the clan to do. You end up in a situation where you're playing an actual outright member of the mafia, yet you have no built-in ways to be relevant except for PKing. You're told to sell spice, and when that inevitably fails because spice is a total dead end due to various coded problems, you sit there going "now what?" Then one day someone tries to hire you to do a hit, and whether you fail or succeed, it was something to do. It was a reason to exist, often after months without any such thing. If the Guild was not such a hollow shell of facades and make-believe, there might not be this crippling case of PK-or-nothing. Either way, it's quite clear after all these years that something doesn't work, and it is my perception that the "leave them completely to their own devices" approach is part of it. It's non-support. The Guild has nothing to work with. The only time I've ever known the clan to really matter was when three mindbenders and an immortal demon were in it. Since that wacky era, it has been non-stop failure for a decade. They just never manage to become relevant for any length of time.

If you want to have a clan in the game that is tantamount to the literal mafia, you need to give it the backing that lets the clan operate in such a way. If you don't want to give the clan that kind of backing, there shouldn't be a clan that's meant to be regarded as the mafia. There's a disconnect here between what people seem to expect of the Guild and what it's actually capable of, because with absolutely zero staff support whatsoever, it's just not going to do what it says on the tin. That's just the way it is. I say try it once and see if the world ends. I expect it doesn't. The Guild has less staff support (of the tangible kind, not the respond-to-requests kind) than any given shitty tribe that nobody ever cared about, yet it's designed as if it needs more than any other clan. Give it the support it deserves for two months, and if the game doesn't fall apart in the process, keep it up.

Otherwise it's basically like if the militia had no templars and no NPC soldiers to aid in law enforcement--in other words, utter futility and pointlessness.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Bebop on September 23, 2019, 03:24:13 AM
I just came here to say I agree with Greve and Hauwke and to address this.

Here is where the confusion comes in for me when talking about the original subject and I would like staff to weigh in.

Are the guild "crews" the equivalent of corner owners of the real life crips/bloods/MS-13/Latin Kings etc?
    Assuming this is the case, if one of the "corner" leaders got killed on their block, Upper management would expect the rest of their block gang
    to handle it, or they get wiped out and they move on to another crew that is capable of holding/protecting their corner and generating revenue.
    It is a dog eat dog world in the rinth/ghetto, and if you and your crew cannot handle your own shit on your own, including retribution. Someone
    fucks with your product, distribution, crew? Your crew sends a message back twice as hard. If they cannot, why would any other crews/upper
    management respect/fear/help that weak crew? Just kill the weak and promote a stronger crew in replacement.

In my earlier example, I said if people from the same neighborhood saw that someone else got attacked by an outsider they would be up in arms, that is true when that happens to civilians. When it comes to crime, and hits, you usually do not see the community getting involved, just the organizations affects

There's clearly some confusion here.  A Guild Boss isn't running a block.  They effectively have a huge amount of trust from their syndicate and are effectively seeing vast amounts of holdings and property.  The Guild losing someone they can trust that much is a huge blow.

I do not think the rinth needs more teeth, they just need less turnover. How do you do that? Play cautiously until you are a badass and can backup your organization.Help is usually offered when you do not need it, so you do not have to take risk on things that do not warrant it. Armageddon is a game of Chess, not checkers, more so in the rinth than any other place.

This sentiment right here is exactly what I want to address.

This is the anti-thesis of everything I believe when I play.  This is what the game needs less of.  You absolutely should NOT be afraid to jump in and start plot lines if you are not a coded badass.

You do not have to have your coded skills up to be a badass.  A Borsail Lord could have novice piercing weapons or no piercing weapons.  And he can be a badass.  Why?  Because of the social mores of the game.  Because of the lore.  Because of the VNPC backing.

This is exactly what I was saying.  If the NPC and VNPC do not work or react, if the staff do not reinforce game lore and consequences this is just a coded game with RP as back up.   This kind of RP stifling is exactly what I'm saying.  I do NOT want to see people afraid to RP without trying to minmax their skills.

A Guild Boss is the same way.  Even if they have no skills.  They ARE a badass.  Because they have the holdings and trust of the most feared crime syndicate in the Known world that has been established for as long as anyone remembers.  Everything in this game can not and should not come down to who is l33t codedly.  Who has perraine.  Otherwise, this ceases to be an RP game.  If you take out a Guild Boss or a Junior Noble or an Agent you better be scared about social consequences.

There also needs to be consistency.  I have seen Kurac threaten to pull their whole ass out've Nak for one Agent's death.  And then other times someone can get ganked in front of NPCs and PCs with nary an eye bat.  If the Guild is really as scary as the docs say, there should absolutely be consequences to thinking that the only way a Guild Boss is a badass is if they twink up their skills.

Ugh, I hate that.  It is so against everything I believe about this game.  And constantly skill crunching and perraine abuse etc really, really needs to be addressed.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Hauwke on September 23, 2019, 06:29:22 AM
In agreement with Bebop here. If I stab PC1, who was fucking PC2, I would vaguely worry about comeuppance. Wouldn't I?

But I could with any character I wanted to go and wipe the floor with the Guild and I would get away with it? Absolutely not how it should be. Regardless of if it stifles RP the furtherment of a character, 100%
try to kill the fuck out of anyone who thinks it's remotely smart to mess with the Guild. If they survive the attempts? Cool, RP hook to play off of.

As I have said in multiple threads lately, paraphrasing very slightly: your PC got their leg broke for being an idiot? Boo fucking hoo. You are the one who poked a mul until it tore shreds of you.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: titansfan on September 23, 2019, 09:42:30 AM
So what I'm hearing is that the Rinth needs a coded c-elf clan and the Guild needs some structure and Imm love to more support player survivability?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Krath on September 23, 2019, 09:45:20 AM
To address Bebop and Hauwke's most recent post and dont want the spam of quoting

Bebop's 1st Point about my confusion:
    That you for clarifying this, I thought that the crews run by pcs were just that, Crews and no one in them was an underboss/boss but merely the equivalent of a lieutenant in a real life organized crime syndicate. Can staff please clarify this?

Bebop's 2nd Point:
    Perhaps I did not write my point clearly enough, especially with the talk about skills and poisons in this thread so let me clarify. When I said Play cautiously until you are a badass and can back up your organization, I meant it in the same sense you wrote and not having anything to do with coded skills. If it is a leadership role, the LEADER should not really have to worry about coded skills or put themselves in a position where they have to unless it is a last resort, that is what you have underlings for. If the leader's underlings cannot back up the bosses' talk and execute whatever promises, threats made or execute retribution, then the leader should not be talking/acting in such a way, unless ordered by their boss. 

If the leader does talk or act in a manner that requires a lot of muscle to back their words/actions up and they do not have it, or the backing of their boss for those words/actions, they should expect retribution and not be surprised if they do not get back up from the family, nor should they.

Seriously, that kind of stuff happens all the time in organized crime syndicates. Someone feels like they are a hot shot, the next Boss of bosses, and tries to do some wild shit to make a name for themselves, then their whole crew is gone and no one in the family really cares, except maybe those remaining from deceased person's crew. 

The "Boss" should not have to worry about fighting, that is why they are the boss. I do think, Bosses should practice how to defend themselves so they have enough time to run away from an attack if necessary.

Also, your examples about Kurac having their agent killed and threatening to pull their entire operation out of nak vs the others that have gotten killed and no one batted an eye:  Maybe there were reasons no one batted an eye that you and others were not privy to. Junior nobles, Agents, Merchants get killed, how their families reacts to such depends on actions we may or may not know about OOC or ICly.

To Hauwke's Point:
   I absolutely agree. If there are PCs going around and just PKing and fucking with Guild members, for no fucking reason, then said PCs should have the full PC, NPC, and VNPC ire of the entire guild come down on them.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on September 23, 2019, 09:55:44 AM
To hop in on points flying around:

The Guild is primarily known as "the place where PKers go to train to be PKers" OOCly, and ICly is "the place you go to learn to be an assassin".

Spice, through all its iterations, isn't very sought after for various reasons.
Theft is even less sought after, because everything is kept in a pouch, in a heavy bag, inside a closeable pack. (been told, ICly, to do this to avoid thieves)
Its easier, codedly, to kill someone than it is to mug them or cause any non-lethal harm.

So this leaves the Guild as a place where people kind of just dull around... maybe join the Byn to get tuff before coming back to provide some basic services. You can't kill other humans (without serious consequence). You can't kill elves (without serious consequence). So if you, as a Guild Leader, need underlings to support your ambitions, you're going to be as hard pressed as a Noble with STANDARDS for their aides.

Documentation-wise, there could be some cleanup or clarification. The Guild being a PC-run clan (mostly) works, but lately there have been problems. Is it lack of staff support? Lack of followthrough by the players? Lack of coded ability? Lack of congruent playtimes?

I think there's more than just "Guild should virtually punish people" to give it back its teeth. It might require conversations with your potential/current Guild Leaders, and not just "do whatever". Or maybe don't toss plot hooks, with absolutely no Organizational Backing, and expect a crew of 2 newbie miscreants and a Fence to pull off some huge Heist in a city with a [redacted].
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: lairos on September 23, 2019, 10:48:55 AM
I see some asking for realistic responses for one single part of the game. Whether it is by coded responses, staff responses or otherwise. There is a very big reason staff have been more or less hands off in many instances and pushing the PLAYERS to do something about it. If staff jumped in to make a "realistic" response for every single thing that happens IC? I am pretty sure you'd be changing your tune here as well. This goes from the lowest of clans to the highest because at the tops of these Clans/Organizations/Houses and whatever is some really scary shit. This is also why the glass ceilings are in place to not allow players of Senior Nobles or Red Robes. Staff really like to try and keep things on a level where PC's can react to rather than what could occur because of the higher levels, but that is not to say that if you're running around being stupid that you won't get yours swiftly.

I am still waiting for someone to explain the difference of a guilder being killed in their territory or a jaxa pah in theirs compared to someone like an AOD Sergeant, Noble or Templar in theirs? All of these have their own pull and some have their own power.

Also, be aware that there are many layers to Armageddon and deaths within to whoever it may be. Just because YOU as a player don't see something happen does not mean something did not in the background or at a level you can not see.  I've seen a Noble killed in the streets on many occasions and never actually saw anything done about it, but it doesn't mean nothing happened. If you are seen as an issue for your House or Organization? You'll be stamped out or allowed to be taken because it is better for them to do so in the long run and the loss here is far smaller than what it could be. This means, while you CAN come out swinging and you never should "require" coded skills...There is still a political system in play and it also has many levels. Everyone answers to someone and if that someone is getting issues? These things tend to run downhill much harder.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Potaje on September 23, 2019, 11:07:04 AM
That post sort of makes me cringe because it shows that perhaps those roles of leadership have been locked to a select group, perhaps you should not keep playing lord or lady buttercup lollipop. Perhaps there needs to be more emphasis on staff letting others move up in the food chain and maybe those that have continually taken the roles should be a supporting cast for some change for them, others and the role and inspiration of the game world.

 Also it seems like hiding away because one is afraid of being insta killed seems completely on that player. There are always ways for the wealthy to secure their being so they are not cloistered. And why play this game if you want to play safe, seems like this is the wrong game to worry to a fault about such a thing. I take this game as a game of risk taking.
 
As for insta killing being uniquely more abundantly new, that in my perspective is not true for the player base as a whole.  There have always been those characters out there that can, did and do have the ability to insta kill and not just of the assassin class.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Lutagar on September 23, 2019, 11:25:28 AM
Also it seems like hiding away because one is afraid of being insta killed seems completely on that player. There are always ways for the wealthy to secure their being so they are not cloistered.

What ways?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 23, 2019, 11:41:57 AM
There was a number of rinthi gang leaders with 'zero' combat skill that thrived for the longest of times.

I forgot his name now. But the creator of eastside kings elf gang had a lot of elves following him that codedly were very adept in combat. While he himself was basically completely untrained. He literally had no time to practice skills, he was too busy schmoozing. I ran a character that had some 'sikrits' about him, but they werent realized for a good RL year. For the first year, I was running around with 84 max hp and merchant defense.  Blue, another long lived character, enjoyed a rather long lifespan without being anywhere near codedly powerful.

It is, ofcourse, impossible to guarantee absolute protection. I mean it's the rinth. Nothing is stopping someone from rolling up a high strength dwarf who does nothing but twinks, sleeps in the sewers, and only really exists to pull off PKs on the street.  Guess what, people like that exist IRL. The junkies whom you can give a pistol to and they'll just walk in on someone important and powerful and blow his brains out, no care for what will come next. Or kids. That's how Omar died, right? :). (The Wire reference)

So absolute protection to the level of Nobility, should not exist. But there are ways of staying alive. In fact, they are "too" easy to be honest. Everyone are so starved for interaction and for things to happen, the moment you show promise to be someone constructive, interesting, and fun people are willing to put their own characters at risk to keep yours alive.

During my last rinthi lifespan. I saw so many guild bosses that show up, act as extreme tough shits, and then die to something silly. It's hard to really expect a serious Guild vNPC reaction. Although that vnpc reaction "does" happen if those bosses deaths happen to be done on purpose by PC hands with stupid reasons. And please do not think that the guild does not react to their own being killed off. They just do it 'after' the person is killed off :). And depending on the person's value, the reaction could be strong to mild. And if there is still playerbase available, then instead of taking the brunt of activity virtually, I imagine the guild would just quest the survivors to enact revenge instead.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Derain on September 23, 2019, 06:51:31 PM
How come these threads always pop up right after IC events? I am shocked this isn't locked.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Inks on September 24, 2019, 06:13:13 PM
If you want competent control in the rinth, play competently. If you get unlucky and die despite or perhaps due to your playstyle, shrug and know that it is better than dying to NPCs.

There was a number of rinthi gang leaders with 'zero' combat skill that thrived for the longest of times.

I forgot his name now. But the creator of eastside kings elf gang had a lot of elves following him that codedly were very adept in combat. While he himself was basically completely untrained. He literally had no time to practice skills, he was too busy schmoozing.

Krak, it was Krak. He was a burglar with the worst stats I have ever played, and every element listed in his mdesc. ;)

EDIT: Damn our gang name was so cheeky.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: number13 on September 24, 2019, 08:14:10 PM
How come these threads always pop up right after IC events? I am shocked this isn't locked.

There's always IC events.  I'm thinking of a string of events, going back two or three RL years.

My concerns is over how dependent the Guild's power is on individual PCs being coded killing machines, rather than an organizational soft strength. Additionally, I'm concerned that the Guild isn't the best clan for being a city-based human criminal, as they can't offer even a fraction of the benefits of the Arm, the GMHs, or noble clans. In fact, I don't think they offer much more than a PC clan. I've seen uncoded PC groups with nearly zero staff support easily out-compete Guild PCs, routinely.

And while you're right that a certain event was the straw that broke the camel's back and prompted me to post this thread, the fact is that players who have no idea what this event is could read this thread and still have no concrete idea.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dar on September 24, 2019, 09:12:35 PM
Like me. I sort of gathered a basic possibility, but hardly any details. It's also such a common possibility, it really doesn't reveal anything.

Krak. Yessssh. I would visit and keep an eye on his daughter for 8 years+ after his death easy. Kept her mother "mostly" untouchable by the rinthi elements. Or helped anyway, she handled her own.  She's probably a playable entity at the moment, somewhere around 25-28?
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dracul on December 16, 2019, 11:09:01 AM
The Rinth is one of my favorite places to play a character over the years, and it can have plenty of teeth, although sometimes it seems to come and go with waves, that may not be the case virtually.

I've always felt like it was an area that could be further tapped into.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Riev on December 16, 2019, 12:15:35 PM
The Rinth is one of my favorite places to play a character over the years, and it can have plenty of teeth, although sometimes it seems to come and go with waves, that may not be the case virtually.

I've always felt like it was an area that could be further tapped into.

It comes and goes in waves, because one side of a war will twink up and cause mayhem while the other side is trying to roleplay out their struggle.
Then a month later, it reverses, and the OTHER side is the bunch of hidden backstab fighters and vice versa for years and years.

It always has teeth. Sometimes those teeth need to be sharpened, and sometimes they need someone to bite.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: HavokBlue on December 16, 2019, 03:06:29 PM
The Rinth works best when the active entities are more interested in playing the narrative out than they are in backstabbing everyone with the wrong ears. It doesn't need to lose any teeth to do that.

It's a slum in a city, not a Fortnite battlefield. Folks ought to take that into consideration.
Title: Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
Post by: Dracul on January 13, 2020, 10:40:23 PM
So...I kinda wanna see elves take over the 'rinth.

Just sayin.