Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Eyeball on August 01, 2019, 09:45:03 PM

Title: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Eyeball on August 01, 2019, 09:45:03 PM
Every time they cast, there is a chance they'll lose dominance over their link to their element and suddenly manifest as some horrible, aggressive representation of it. The player is no longer in control.

The chance is normally tiny (or maybe even zero) for unwounded mages, but the more hurt they are, the bigger it gets.

A Vivaduan might turn into some dripping, multi-tentacled creature. A Rukkian, into a spiky ball with stubby limbs. And so on. Not only could they fight, but use magick effects as well. Inventory is dropped or (in the case of worn items) destroyed.

Eventually the outburst wears off and they resume their former form.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Synthesis on August 01, 2019, 09:58:28 PM
First off, thanks for editing.

Second, no.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Hauwke on August 01, 2019, 10:45:22 PM
This sounds well outside the realm of what Zalanthan Elementalist Magick is supposed to be. Hard no from me on that front.

However, mayhaps sorcerers.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Eyeball on August 01, 2019, 11:01:49 PM
How about for nilazis?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Synthesis on August 01, 2019, 11:09:31 PM
I feel like you need to clarify what you mean by "make elementalists scary."

Make them scary to who?  The person playing the elementalist, or other players?

Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: MeTekillot on August 01, 2019, 11:17:45 PM
I think the Elementalist shouldn't be punished. The people arpund them? Maybe. Why not just make them more powerful and rely on the years of play one must accrue to acquire the required karma that represents trust invested in the player.

This idea itself I am completely against. Yes, it makes them scary/risky, but the penalty to the Elementalist player's experience massively outweighs the benefits to the theme.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Lizzie on August 01, 2019, 11:24:28 PM
I doubt anyone would play one if every time they cast a spell, there was a chance of a magick-themed mul-rage episode. Helping someone dying of
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on August 01, 2019, 11:30:56 PM
I will kill all of you. lol
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: triste on August 02, 2019, 12:11:47 AM
I doubt anyone would play one if every time they cast a spell, there was a chance of a magick-themed mul-rage episode.

Be a victim of that unfortunate dice roll? Absolutely not.

The OP here made an analogy to mul rage, someone rightfully replied that that is a mechanic you need to find out about IC, so we shouldn't even be talking about this at all.

But can I just say this whole situation, including the assertion that we can't talk about existing rage code, is ludicrous and I 100% agree with Lizzie's summation?

To avoid getting in trouble by talking about things we shouldn't be talking about, let's just do a thought experiment here.

Imagine playing a game of D&D, and suddenly your DM says "Oh sorry, you critically failed a dice roll I just made behind my DM screen here. Your head explodes! You are now dead." You, as a player, would likely say "WTF?!?!" The DM would then say, "Oh, when you picked the super-psionicist class, what you didn't know is every in game day I am rolling two d10s and if you get two zeros your head explodes and you die." You, as a player, would likely say, "Well why didn't you tell me that's how it worked to begin with?! I thought as a super-psionicist my head would maybe only explode after a lot of exertion or getting injured." The DM then shrugs and says, "Ooops, sorry, it was just a random dice roll all along. Death is permanent, maybe pick a different class next time, now you know how it works."

That is the exact situation players of certain in game races are in now. Before even remotely considering extending this mechanic to gickers, we need to fix the situation for our existing guilds/races. It needs to be spelled out extremely explicitly, both what causes the episodes and what prevents it. Gickers are given the exact spheres/etc for casting spells, and any "rage" code should be made just as explicit. Once we fix the situation and do that, I might be in favor of something like this.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Jihelu on August 02, 2019, 12:23:11 AM
This reminds me of some shit out of Warhammer where magick has a chance of making things go 'fucky'.

I don't see WH40k Psykers like I do Arm Magickers, nah.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: triste on August 02, 2019, 12:28:37 AM
Good point, Jihelu. I stand by my DnD example, an will riff on the Warhammer example you just posted. In DnD/Warhammer/etc, Player Character rulesets are equally transparent to the player and the DM for a reason. A change like this would only be acceptable if we fix the current problem we have with not documenting the mechanics for players properly.

The sad fact is the mechanics under discussion here are discussed on the shadow boards anyway. Why are they discussed on the shadow boards? Because for lack of clear documentation, you are basically condemned to die as a new player dealing with the mechanics we're discussing. The system is broken in that regard. If anything the best thing to come out of the original post here is a clear explanation of mechanics that we need to see elsewhere in the game.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Halcyon on August 02, 2019, 12:52:39 AM
My  suggestion would be that when a spell is cast, both the mage and the few rooms around him or her picks up some amount of "negative charge".   The charge naturally decreases over time, and high horn spells, and more powerful spells increment it faster.

Once the area or mage gets past a particular point of "charge", there is an increasing chance of an effect being generated.   This is where a person in the same area might pick up a curse.  The curse isnt a targeted griefing tool.  Its a random bad effect from being around the naughty.    Once the mage or area triggers a bad effect, their negative charge is purged to create that effect.   More negative charge in a backlash would make for a bigger negative effect.  The farther you push things, the worse the backlash.

Negative effects would be different for mages and areas, and maybe different for the type of spells that added into the negative charge.   In addition to curses, uncontrolled elementals could be summoned, thaumivore critters might stop by for a meal, or the local magickal authority could take notice.

Incidentally, this solves some scripted / spamcasting for skilling.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Synthesis on August 02, 2019, 01:04:30 AM
I don't like hard-coded random negative effects because the superstition-based fear of 'gickers is culturally thematic, not based on how magick supposedly actually works.  As such, hard-coded mandatory random negative effects would throw off the clan docs for clans like the ATV, Al-Seik, Sun Runners, et al. where magick is not something that is universally reviled because OooOOoOOoOOooOOOo scary.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Halcyon on August 02, 2019, 01:07:12 AM
Regardless of the solution that gets settled on, I think part of the game theme is destroying the world through overuse of power and materials.   The various tribes try to work within limits and realistic bounds.   The gluttony of the templarate has no such restraint, even when they have control of their unruly mob.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Veselka on August 02, 2019, 02:00:05 AM
This wouldn't make magic any scarier, it'd just make it so I'd never play a Magicker class.

It isn't that I don't like negative effects, or even possibly magic not being 'targeted' as easily -- So if it's used, there's a chance it misfires. But the examples listed above detail well why hidden negative effects based on random chance WILL eventually happen, and therefore, makes it an unappealing choice.

I'd be more interested in magic not working as intended 100% of the time. So instead of a spell either working or not working, it has a chance of misfiring and having an entirely different result, possibly even a spell they don't have on their spell list.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Brytta Léofa on August 02, 2019, 02:49:09 AM
Incidentally, this solves some scripted / spamcasting for skilling.

Magick skillgain really is not out of control. It's on par with crafting skillgain, if all recipes succeeded most of the time, and it took ten minutes to regenerate your Crafting Energy, and being seen crafting (or with crafted products, or with a non-removable merchant's token) were a 100% valid excuse for getting murderated.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Hathors Hitman on August 02, 2019, 11:25:44 AM
Or you know follow the docs and understand your character shouldn't be best friends with that magicker.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 02, 2019, 11:55:24 AM
There is really no need to codedly manifest "fear" in people. Good roleplayers will properly roleplay this emotion and others will continue to roleplay "fearless" characters every PC they have.

The issue with this idea is that there is really no IC basis for it to exist. Elemental magick is essentially a wild, unknown and scary thing already, if people don't think so that's up to them to roleplay out but 99% of vNPCs/NPCS will fear it rightfully. I think 50% (maybe 1/4?) of Tuluk was leveled from magick (check the chronology).. then there are other parts of the game where magick has shown terrible massive capability to destroy all life in a vast swathe of landscape.. we are essentially talking the palpable fear of the cold war, this is nuclear type of power that can destroy vast square kilometers of all life. That's pretty damn scary if you ask me.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Brokkr on August 02, 2019, 12:51:13 PM
Don't forget the area of glass that now exists north of Luirs and would be well within living memory.

Or the area where there used to be a volcano, just a tad more north of there.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Erythil on August 02, 2019, 08:30:09 PM
I think magic users are already isolating enough without you needing to be a hermit to use any of it at all.  This description wouldnt stop people from playing them, it would just make you want to never play with any friends.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Riev on August 06, 2019, 09:09:57 AM
Don't forget the area of glass that now exists north of Luirs and would be well within living memory.

Or the area where there used to be a volcano, just a tad more north of there.

Does everyone know about the glass north of Luir's, for the most part? (it could be a rumor that I haven't seen yet)

And even if so, I could say "Well that was some gith ashlayer. Victor the Viv can't do that. Maybe Kyle the Krathi, but he's a dick anyway."

I just think the cantrips being non-combat inducing would be a start. Even at Mon, with 'real' effects, if they're subdued enough it'd make the characters actually scary on their own terms.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Veselka on August 06, 2019, 10:15:55 AM
Quote
1659 (Year 42 Age 22)
As Kurac and assorted allies make a strike on a gith tribe that has been harassing Luir's Outpost and trade for several years, the gith somehow gain access to the Kuraci Fist fort north of Luir's. Through apparent use of magick the fort is reduced to a glassed over wasteland by the gith.

Speaking of which, it's time for some new chronology entries!
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: titansfan on August 06, 2019, 02:39:17 PM
I think adding feels to people around the person casting would be neat. 

Strictly physical but something like: You feel uncomfortably hot.

You feel an uncomfortable dryness in the air.

This would be a feel to all not of your element. Thoughts?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Riev on August 07, 2019, 09:08:31 AM
I think adding feels to people around the person casting would be neat. 

Strictly physical but something like: You feel uncomfortably hot.

You feel an uncomfortable dryness in the air.

This would be a feel to all not of your element. Thoughts?

I don't think this makes an elementalist 'scary', at all. I think it makes them inconvenient and impossible to play unmanifested.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: titansfan on August 07, 2019, 09:11:50 AM
I think adding feels to people around the person casting would be neat. 

Strictly physical but something like: You feel uncomfortably hot.

You feel an uncomfortable dryness in the air.

This would be a feel to all not of your element. Thoughts?

I don't think this makes an elementalist 'scary', at all. I think it makes them inconvenient and impossible to play unmanifested.

Unmanifested wouldn't be casting. How does it make anything inconvenient? It holds no actual coded effect just flavor and roleplay?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Inks on August 07, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
I think elementalists are scary.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Nao on August 07, 2019, 09:21:37 AM
I think elementalists are scary.

Finally someone said it.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: LindseyBalboa on August 08, 2019, 11:58:05 AM
Thirded
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: ShaLeah on August 09, 2019, 08:22:35 AM
I have opinions on magicks.  Anyone hanging around the Discord knows them.

#bringbackrealmagicks
BUT
#donttakeawaythenewsubguilds

Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Lizzie on August 09, 2019, 09:42:14 AM
I have opinions on magicks.  Anyone hanging around the Discord knows them.

#bringbackrealmagicks
BUT
#donttakeawaythenewsubguilds

1) #bringbackrealmagicks even if it's special app only or secret unannounced invitation-only sponsored roles after acquiring full 3 karma status.
2) #keeptouchedonly
3) for Sorcerers, allow them to pick a path to start with, and a second path to ultimately learn if they manage to live that long and git gud.
4) #ihatecompromisebuthereisone : for #1, allow elemental sub-class players to pick any TWO subclasses of the same element, to become a main class, and then pick any mundane non-extended subclass as their actual subclass.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: ShaLeah on August 09, 2019, 11:28:57 AM
3) for Sorcerers, allow them to pick a path to start with, and a second path to ultimately learn if they manage to live that long and git gud.

Sorcerors aren't elementalists woman - Stop derailing!

4) #ihatecompromisebuthereisone : for #1, allow elemental sub-class players to pick any TWO subclasses of the same element, to become a main class, and then pick any mundane non-extended subclass as their actual subclass.

You wanna make elementalists REALLY scary?
Full guild elementalist with ANY touched/subclass.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Lizzie on August 09, 2019, 11:58:20 AM
3) for Sorcerers, allow them to pick a path to start with, and a second path to ultimately learn if they manage to live that long and git gud.

Sorcerors aren't elementalists woman - Stop derailing!

4) #ihatecompromisebuthereisone : for #1, allow elemental sub-class players to pick any TWO subclasses of the same element, to become a main class, and then pick any mundane non-extended subclass as their actual subclass.

You wanna make elementalists REALLY scary?
Full guild elementalist with ANY touched/subclass.

If they could pick any touched/subclass, that would make them sorcerers. Elemental mages do NOT have a direct connection to any element that isn't their own.

And bringing up the sorcery is related. Elementalists were dangerous *in and of themselves, notwithstanding subguild combos* but nowhere near as dangerous as sorcerers. Now, with the limitations, the danger of a sub-element vs. the danger of a sub-sorc is more equitable. Sorc-subs plus main guilds make a sorc potentially not much more powerful than an element-sub plus main guild. I'm talking codewise, and the code is supposedly designed to support the roleplay.

If your *character* has learned through experience that the sorc who's been terrorizing the town can't actually do most of the things he claims he can do (maybe they were best buds, or father/son, or intimate girlfriends/mates, until "something happened") - but the local Oash Whiran can ... then there's a HUGE disconnect between roleplay and code that needs to be addressed.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Synthesis on August 09, 2019, 12:15:47 PM
Just a little bit of exaggeration going on in here at the moment.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Brokkr on August 09, 2019, 01:02:16 PM
The biggest limiter in how dangerous sorcs are is how people play them.

Tried to address part of this through knowledge for folks that play sorcs, rest is up to the players.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Delirium on August 09, 2019, 01:30:21 PM
So what you're saying is I need to app a sub guild sorcerer.

More seriously, after the update to their spell list (the very first release did have them looking a bit tame) they were no joke. With the new guilds? Absolutely terrifying.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: number13 on August 09, 2019, 04:18:49 PM
There were a bunch of Vampire: the Masquerade MUSHes back in the early 2000s/late 90s. I tried a couple and hated them, because you were either playing a Vampire or you were playing a victim...someone for the vampire PCs to lord over and flex their e-peens. Most people, obviously, played vampires, with a smattering of newer players stuck in the awful role of being a victim in a server full of predators.

I feel like that's what elementalist/sorc players want -- a game of all powerful magic-users with a few hapless victims around to torment. It's not healthy or fun. There needs to be a gradient where the majority of players are playing mundanes, or the whole system will fail to convey the correct feeling.

If you want magic to be scary, make it rare for PCs -- like 1 in 20 PC. If it isn't rare, it can't be all-powerful. It probably shouldn't be as powerful as it already is -- certain class + elementalist combinations are already incredibly powerful compared to mundane options.

The templars fulfill that apex predator role, and they're heavily constrained in number by virtue of how they are apped. (In fact, there's probably too many templar PCs already, given Allanak's population, or at least there was a RL month ago).  That works. It's works great. It's very, very easy to RP being scared shitless of templars, because I actually am scared of templars.

I'm not scared of, say, Whirans. I'm *annoyed* by Whirans, especially when they use a certain spell. It doesn't elicit a fear response from me at all. It feels super lame.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Synthesis on August 09, 2019, 05:52:28 PM
If you think Whirans are only "annoying," boy, you've got some fun surprises in store!
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Brokkr on August 09, 2019, 05:57:53 PM
Sometimes I wonder if folks perception is colored by whether they play primarily inside or outside of cities.  A whiran that might be an annoyance if you never leave Allanak might be something altogether different if you encounter them in the wastes.

Perhaps the loss folks perceive sorcs to have experienced is reaching a level where they are just as scary no matter where you are.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: number13 on August 09, 2019, 07:22:07 PM
If you think Whirans are only "annoying," boy, you've got some fun surprises in store!

Naw. Not fun. There are a couple of whiran spells that simply shouldn't exist. And there's a couple more that should be nerfed into uselessness.

Because of rules, I can't explain why I despise the whiran branch of the elementalist tree so thoroughly. But even when they PK one of my characters, it never feels scary or awesome, and certainly not fun. Encountering whirans and their bullshit has prompted me into extended armabreaks more than once. The only word that echos in my skull when dealing with their stuff is "lame", regardless of whether the chicanery is coming from an actual whiran or a sorc using their flavor of spells.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Synthesis on August 09, 2019, 07:35:01 PM
O.K.  :-X
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: number13 on August 09, 2019, 07:51:42 PM
Here's the thing.

Stop pretending magic is rare or scary. As the game is played today, it's not. Balance the game with that concept in mind, and allow elementalists more avenues of interaction with the rest of the playerbase. Gemmies should be able to join the Byn or get hired by noble houses beyond just the Oash, but they shouldn't overshadow a combat speced mundane in the Arena, or a sneaky speced mundane in the Rinth.. This can be done.

For example, Whirans shouldn't be invincible death machines that can attack you regardless of your location, explore risk-free, and only suffer consequences if they make a human error. Instead, they should be able to float a little bit for a short duration, yank *willing* subjects to their location, turn perfectly invisible for *short* duration. Not better than mundanes -- but different. Situationally super useful, without overshadowing mundane abilities.

Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 09, 2019, 08:17:40 PM
Here's the thing.

Stop pretending magic is rare or scary. As the game is played today, it's not. Balance the game with that concept in mind, and allow elementalists more avenues of interaction with the rest of the playerbase. Gemmies should be able to join the Byn or get hired by noble houses beyond just the Oash, but they shouldn't overshadow a combat speced mundane in the Arena, or a sneaky speced mundane in the Rinth.. This can be done.

For example, Whirans shouldn't be invincible death machines that can attack you regardless of your location, explore risk-free, and only suffer consequences if they make a human error. Instead, they should be able to float a little bit for a short duration, yank *willing* subjects to their location, turn perfectly invisible for *short* duration. Not better than mundanes -- but different. Situationally super useful, without overshadowing mundane abilities.

Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.

I don't know what game you're playing but I'm fairly certain there are not people rolling up a ton of magickers, half-giants or muls. I can count on one hand the amount of half-giants, muls, and magickers I've seen in the past 6 months and I play in populated areas and clans. Mundanes are by far the most played types of PCs in the game.

Would love to see a statistical breakdown of what is in the game but not sure if staff would be willing to release? I have a pretty good idea that city elves are rarely played for obvious reasons. But something like this would be nice:
human - 100
elf - 30
half-elf - 30
d-elf - 10
half-giant - 5
mul - 5

raider - 20
enforcer - 30
fighter - 30
laborer - 5
I think it would help from an OOC perspective to know what is or isn't being played and to know what the game might be needing at any given time. I like to fill niches, don't like playing in overly populated clans with tons of players, I enjoy the dead clans that need me more than those that don't.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: mansa on August 09, 2019, 11:04:05 PM
Are you asking for data from Brokkr?!?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Jihelu on August 10, 2019, 02:00:24 AM
Didn't we see statistics about this a while ago? If I recall there were more Magickers than I thought.

I forget though.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Rogerthat on August 10, 2019, 09:12:39 AM
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Lizzie on August 10, 2019, 09:46:48 AM
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)

Are they scary because they're elementalists? Or are they scary because they're combat-mundane main classes who can buff their mundane skills with magic?

Once upon a time, elementalists were scary because they were elementalists. They didn't need to rely primarily on mundane skills to do scary things and be scary people. The mundane skills in their subguild helped them do mundane tasks, and the non-magick skills in their main class helped them, to some small extent, with minor non-magick defenses and other mundane tasks.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Alesan on August 10, 2019, 10:14:40 AM
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)

I don't know if it's just me, but the strange assortment of smileys makes me question the intentional message of your post. What does it mean?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Dar on August 10, 2019, 10:52:13 AM
Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.


Isn't there like a 4-5 months wait between 0 karma and 3 karma? I mean they spend 3 karma to app up a whiran and they need to be alive for 4-5 months to have 3 karma available again to roll up another whiran after the last one bites the dust. That's one of the things that keeps the magickers rare. The karma expenditures and frequently short life span of those roles anyway.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Synthesis on August 10, 2019, 10:55:51 AM
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)

Are they scary because they're elementalists? Or are they scary because they're combat-mundane main classes who can buff their mundane skills with magic?

Once upon a time, elementalists were scary because they were elementalists. They didn't need to rely primarily on mundane skills to do scary things and be scary people. The mundane skills in their subguild helped them do mundane tasks, and the non-magick skills in their main class helped them, to some small extent, with minor non-magick defenses and other mundane tasks.

Personally, I PK'ed 3? PCs in under 8 days played with a miscreant/gicker...so no, it's not just buffing their mundane skills.  The mundane skills absolutely help immensely, but there's pretty much no mundane subclass you could pair with a miscreant and wreck people at 8 days (unless you have access to heramide).

Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.


Isn't there like a 4-5 months wait between 0 karma and 3 karma? I mean they spend 3 karma to app up a whiran and they need to be alive for 4-5 months to have 3 karma available again to roll up another whiran after the last one bites the dust. That's one of the things that keeps the magickers rare. The karma expenditures and frequently short life span of those roles anyway.

Tempest is only 2.  (It's pretty awesome, though.)
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: X-D on August 10, 2019, 11:07:42 PM
I am just going to quote Brokkr on this point.



Quote
Sometimes I wonder if folks perception is colored by whether they play primarily inside or outside of cities.  A whiran that might be an annoyance if you never leave Allanak might be something altogether different if you encounter them in the wastes.

Perhaps the loss folks perceive sorcs to have experienced is reaching a level where they are just as scary no matter where you are.

Even if the elementalist subs are anemic (Sorry I have not done that request yet Brokkr, it is coming this week I promise) If you play outside the city your perception would likely be very different. Also...whiran players do tend to play out the mercurial nature of whira so they do tend to lose interest in things quickly...this often can be good for you PC. But if your PC gives reason to focus.......heh.


Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: number13 on August 11, 2019, 05:25:59 AM
But if your PC gives reason to focus.......heh.

You can't say that about a Vividian, or a Rukkian, or a Krathi, or even really a Nilizi. But if you piss off a Whiran, you're fucked forever, basically. Until the other player gets bored or sloppy.

In fact, you could be playing an Vividian or Rukkian or Krathi yourself, and you're more or less fucked if a Whiran decides you're fucked.

And meanwhile, while they have the best PvP spells in the game, they also have the best spells for overcoming PvE challenges, to the point where exploration is effortless and cheap.

And nobody sees a problem with that?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Lizzie on August 11, 2019, 09:05:48 AM

Personally, I PK'ed 3? PCs in under 8 days played with a miscreant/gicker...so no, it's not just buffing their mundane skills.  The mundane skills absolutely help immensely, but there's pretty much no mundane subclass you could pair with a miscreant and wreck people at 8 days (unless you have access to heramide).


So, if they had picked artisan/mage-subclass - they'd be scary because they are elementalists? I'm not asking if every PC, NPC, and VNPC in the game world would respond appropriately to their existence, because we already know that's not true. I'm asking if the code of the elementalist sub-class itself would support the scariness attributed to the fact that they are elementalists.

If the answer is no, then the answer is no. No, elementalist subclasses are not in and of themselves scary in the way full elementalist classes were, whereas once upon a time, full elementalist guilds were scary. Even vivaduans - the so-called "healers" of the group - had the potential to be absolutely horrifying, without having any useful non-magick combat skills.

To me it's the same concern I had with trap being removed back in the day. Sure, you can now emote out that there's a trap on that door lock. But there's no actual damage done, no coded risk for failure, and no coded reward for success. When was the last time you saw anyone roleplay out a trapped lock? For me, the last time I saw it, was when there was an actual trap code.

A big chunk of "the thing that made Elemental main guilds scary" was removed from game play. Sure you can emote it out. But the code no longer supports it. The thing that made them scary was the way they were created to work in tangent with each other and in fact how every spell within a single mage's capacity was designed to work with/off every other spell in that single mage's capacity. Take away the fluff pieces, and you have a solid core of skills/spells that are designed to work with each other. If you remove one of those spells, you remove a HUGE part of why they are so scary.

This plus this plus this plus this = no need to pretend that theoretically according to the docs, this character can do horrible things to yours. It means they really CAN do horrible things to yours.

This plus this plus this - but not this = you're going to have to just pretend, because those horrible things cannot happen.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Shabago on August 11, 2019, 02:37:31 PM
Ask and Ye shall receive:

Sample size: All PCs, living and dead, since the start of 2019.

Humans: 443 PCs, of which were magickers = 47.
Elves: 261 PCs, of which were magickers = 28
Dwarves: 75 PCs, of which were magickers = 5
Half-elves: 84 PCs, of which were magickers = 11
Half-Giants: 7 PCs
Mul: 10 PCs

Total PCs 1062, of which were magickers - 85, or 8%.

Guild breakdown:

Stalker - 139
Fighter - 105
Scout - 107
Miscreant - 103
Raider - 82
Adventurer - 45
Infiltrator - 62
Enforcer - 74
Artisan - 44
Craftsperson - 29
Dune Trader - 22
Soldier - 21
Laborer - 15
Pilferer - 27
Fence - 15

** Difference from 'total' versus guild breakdown - Some existing 'old' mundane guilds, those that were stored, those that were rejected.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 11, 2019, 03:06:47 PM
Woah that's awesome. Thanks a lot for getting the breakdown.

I'm surprised by the amount of stalkers but that's the only thing that stands out to me. There are hardly any of the high karma stuff, muls/half-giants doesn't surprise me at all. Less than 10% as magickers is way lower than what people would claim on the forums. Considering those are subguilds and probably include a lot of people testing out the new magicker subguilds to find something they want to play.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Is Friday on August 11, 2019, 03:14:24 PM
Could you post a breakdown of the magick guilds picked, too? Or is that too revealing you think? I assume not.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Brokkr on August 11, 2019, 07:50:33 PM
Given we’ve just released two new magical subclasses, I would rather not publish any numbers related to them, or that would allow someone to back into their numbers.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: mansa on August 12, 2019, 01:58:58 AM
Look what I did:

(https://i.imgur.com/dQYLHIa.png)
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Eyeball on August 12, 2019, 03:45:52 AM
Why not normalize the bar chart so that any trend toward or away from classes is more evident?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: number13 on August 12, 2019, 06:27:35 AM
Does that data includes PCs that played under 5 hours (or some similar cut-off to cull out people who tried the game briefly, but didn't continue playing)?  I don't know if that's a significant factor in the data, and I don't have an eagle-eyed view of everything, obviously, but 8% of players being gickers doesn't match my experiences.

Players with more playtime might skew the perception as well...I know it's impossible, but I think it be more telling to know hours played per class.

Though, I don't really care how many elementalists there are. What actually matters to me having a player base where interactions between players is encouraged, to give each character the biggest possible monkey sphere. And that means elementalists should not be super scary.

I'd rather a few very, very rare scary magic users.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Dar on August 12, 2019, 08:33:48 AM
Somehow I suspect introducing a cut off would require them to check every entry for hours played, instead of pulling up a list. Difference between a 5 min query and multi hour one.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Riev on August 12, 2019, 10:00:07 AM
Look what I did:

(https://i.imgur.com/dQYLHIa.png)

What I see is that nobody likes crafting classes, Stalker is just SO good, and maybe I DON'T want my next karma-subguild to be Adventurer.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Hauwke on August 12, 2019, 05:04:34 PM
It also appears we have had more characters in the 8 months of this year, than the entirety of last year.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 12, 2019, 05:22:29 PM
What I see is that nobody likes crafting classes, Stalker is just SO good, and maybe I DON'T want my next karma-subguild to be Adventurer.

I mean.. this is nothing new. Previously merchants were the least played guild by far. Crafters are always going to be under represented by the player base, most players enjoy playing combat capable characters for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: flurry on August 12, 2019, 08:13:31 PM
It also appears we have had more characters in the 8 months of this year, than the entirety of last year.

I think the new classes only went live about midway through last year.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 12, 2019, 08:19:38 PM
It also appears we have had more characters in the 8 months of this year, than the entirety of last year.

I've been busy.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Hauwke on August 12, 2019, 08:53:22 PM
It also appears we have had more characters in the 8 months of this year, than the entirety of last year.

I think the new classes only went live about midway through last year.

I think they went in some time around march, which, if memory actually serves this time, means about the same amount of time has passed and we have more PCs, which is pretty interesting.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Dar on August 12, 2019, 10:29:41 PM
Or perhaps it means a lot of people died, then died again, and afterwards died some more during this year. I find any accusation that it was somehow my fault entirely unplausable and offensive.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Medena on August 12, 2019, 10:31:56 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2018

For a number of reasons, mostly based around transparency and fairness, I am opening up this forum to the public, now that it has served its purpose.  New Classes are coming, anticipated within the next couple of weeks.

The new classes went in at the end of June or beginning of July.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Hauwke on August 12, 2019, 11:45:33 PM
Alright, so that means the graph is 6 months vs 8 months.

The total number of PCs seems higher regardless.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Eyeball on August 12, 2019, 11:51:27 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2018

For a number of reasons, mostly based around transparency and fairness, I am opening up this forum to the public, now that it has served its purpose.  New Classes are coming, anticipated within the next couple of weeks.

The new classes went in at the end of June or beginning of July.

But were available to a substantial number of playtesters before that.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Jarvis on August 15, 2019, 07:34:14 PM
TL;DR They're fucking horrifying
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Jarvis on August 15, 2019, 07:36:38 PM
Double-Posting:

They're only not scary because you already peeked through how they work

Sue me
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Riev on August 15, 2019, 07:50:26 PM
For me, it really isn't that I know someone can toss a fireball in my face, and therefore they aren't scary.

Its just that there are no real coded consequences for being around these wild and crazy 'gicks. Sure there is documentation and "reasons" to not associate with them, but in regular play, these things don't actually happen. Eventually, you realize your dick hasn't fallen off, and that your bad luck happened before and after you met and killed that weird gemmed fucker.

They aren't scary because nothing about them SCARES people. If you piss off a gemmed at the Gaj, there is nothing they can do. They can't even wiggle their fingers and say "boogety boo" without getting the Arm involved. Its like saying dogs behind fences are scary. Yeah maybe if someone lets them off their leash, but otherwise, who cares about some junkyard dog?
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 15, 2019, 07:57:31 PM
For me, it really isn't that I know someone can toss a fireball in my face, and therefore they aren't scary.

Its just that there are no real coded consequences for being around these wild and crazy 'gicks. Sure there is documentation and "reasons" to not associate with them, but in regular play, these things don't actually happen. Eventually, you realize your dick hasn't fallen off, and that your bad luck happened before and after you met and killed that weird gemmed fucker.

They aren't scary because nothing about them SCARES people. If you piss off a gemmed at the Gaj, there is nothing they can do. They can't even wiggle their fingers and say "boogety boo" without getting the Arm involved. Its like saying dogs behind fences are scary. Yeah maybe if someone lets them off their leash, but otherwise, who cares about some junkyard dog?

Discrimination is naturally illogical. No one here is disputing this, everything you say is true, but the illiterate, superstitious and very illogical population of the world we're playing in truly believe in it regardless of our own logical, literate, educated viewpoints as players. Just because we as players know there is a "crim code" and we are safe in that tavern surrounded by NPC soldiers doesn't mean our characters believe that.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Riev on August 15, 2019, 07:59:34 PM
Which, I think is the point of this thread. A way to remind everyone and reinforce that elementalists are, in fact, scary.

Stop RP-shaming people because they aren't as immersed or deep into the world/characters as you are. We're all here for different reasons.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Brokkr on August 15, 2019, 08:02:57 PM
If you piss off a gemmed at the Gaj

Sometimes I wonder if folks perception is colored by whether they play primarily inside or outside of cities.

We've made some places safer, by design, than others.  That isn't a flaw, that is working as intended.  If your yardstick is the Gaj, then no one except a Templar or AoD or [censored] is scary.

If you are saying mages were once scary when I was sitting in the Gaj and now they aren't, that has very little to do with magickers and subclasses and everything to do with http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47646.msg831573.html#msg831573 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47646.msg831573.html#msg831573)
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 15, 2019, 08:35:40 PM
Which, I think is the point of this thread. A way to remind everyone and reinforce that elementalists are, in fact, scary.

Stop RP-shaming people because they aren't as immersed or deep into the world/characters as you are. We're all here for different reasons.

I am simply stating facts which you seem to be taking as "RP-shaming" whatever that is. Holding players accountable is what makes a player base strong and helps people improve, nothing wrong with correcting players or reminding them of the virtual game world.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: MeTekillot on August 15, 2019, 08:50:48 PM
If you piss off a gemmed at the Gaj

Sometimes I wonder if folks perception is colored by whether they play primarily inside or outside of cities.

We've made some places safer, by design, than others.  That isn't a flaw, that is working as intended.  If your yardstick is the Gaj, then no one except a Templar or AoD or [censored] is scary.


You severely overestimate how safe people are at the Gaj
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Brokkr on August 16, 2019, 12:45:49 AM
I just take into account player behaviour, and that those who could do something most often don't, unless they feel they have a decent chance to escape retribution.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: MeTekillot on August 16, 2019, 01:42:48 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/QtnUfg1.gif)
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: Harmless on August 16, 2019, 01:58:16 AM
yeah that guy died, which basically further proves the point Brokkr makes.

but also, yeah, the Gaj is incredibly fucking scary, if you've played long enough to see things go down there.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on August 16, 2019, 11:48:10 PM
It doesn't make sense for every character to be completely afraid of magick, but it does for the majority.  I have had characters that hate magick that won't be around it, or around anything associated with that kind of abomination.  I have had characters that tolerate it, but are afraid of it or that are afraid of it, but give the people a chance.   Not every character you make that is mundane has to be completely terrified of majick.  It should depend on you original background, your pc experiences though out actual play. Were those experiences positive or negative?   If you are in Kurac you might not have a complete disdain for Breeds for example, but if you are AOD, you probably hate breeds, just another sharp really.  Is magick codedly scary, even in sub-guilds Ayyyy, there are a hand full of spells that will one shot the majority of the player base in a solo if they are prepared, there are others that are worse than that.  Should you roleplay a healthy fear of witches, yeah, but it should depend on where you are from and what your experiences are with it to an extent.   If you make a freshy Allanak hunter thats 20 and his dad taught him to hunt and you have no experience with magick other than the superstitions then yeah, you should probably rp that fear.  If you are a guard for house Oash and have worked there for five years, your attitude is likely going to be different.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on August 19, 2019, 11:42:15 AM
Would it be possible to have room effects similar to the sawdust effect with certain crafted goods that result from the repeated use of certain spell types?

What I'm asking is would it be reasonable to, if enough viv spells were cast in a certain location, a thin short-lived fog covers the ground. And etc for each other type of caster. This would dissuade holing up and spamcasting and allow other players to react to the room effects with out said caster present.

I'm sure you guys are creative enough to come up with other room effects specific to each caster type.

Edit: And I'm not saying that there be scary coded effects or anything. I just want a teensy bit of extra rope to RP around.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 19, 2019, 12:10:00 PM
Would it be possible to have room effects similar to the sawdust effect with certain crafted goods that result from the repeated use of certain spell types?

What I'm asking is would it be reasonable to, if enough viv spells were cast in a certain location, a thin short-lived fog covers the ground. And etc for each other type of caster. This would dissuade holing up and spamcasting and allow other players to react to the room effects with out said caster present.

I'm sure you guys are creative enough to come up with other room effects specific to each caster type.

Edit: And I'm not saying that there be scary coded effects or anything. I just want a teensy bit of extra rope to RP around.

These are the kind of ideas I like to see. Would love this.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: racurtne on August 23, 2019, 04:30:18 PM

Dis gud.
Would it be possible to have room effects similar to the sawdust effect with certain crafted goods that result from the repeated use of certain spell types?

What I'm asking is would it be reasonable to, if enough viv spells were cast in a certain location, a thin short-lived fog covers the ground. And etc for each other type of caster. This would dissuade holing up and spamcasting and allow other players to react to the room effects with out said caster present.

I'm sure you guys are creative enough to come up with other room effects specific to each caster type.

Edit: And I'm not saying that there be scary coded effects or anything. I just want a teensy bit of extra rope to RP around.

These are the kind of ideas I like to see. Would love this.
Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: kahuna on August 23, 2019, 06:56:44 PM
Something like this:

Casting 2+ times?
krath:
The ground is burnt and blackened from heat.

viv:
The ground is wet and unnaturally damp.

ruk:
The earth has shifted unnaturally here with several cracks.

wind:
The ground has a large open wind chasm here.

Just a few ideas for what messages we could see.


Title: Re: A way to make elementalists scary
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on August 23, 2019, 11:29:22 PM
I was thinking more like 10+ casts in the same room over the last day, but essentially yes.

And I like fog for viv just because of how unnatural that would be on Zalanthas. You could also mention humidity. "The air here is uncomfortably sticky with humidity."

For krathis, if it's an outdoor room you'd get something like "Suk-Krath seems to peer directly through the hazy clouds above, sending wavy shimmers of heat in all directions."

I like your Rukkian one.

And whira coulybe something as innocuous as "The winds here feel surprisingly unruly and undecided, tugging at your clothing from one direction this moment and another the next".

Nilaz could be about how unusually  temperate (and cold even) the space feels (think the Langoliers like how everything is tasteless and lifeless). And drovI think would have to play on shade, but not that it's a restful shade, but almost feels like it is dark for dark's sake, etc. these can be tweaked obviously to be more or less intense and several iterations would be best.