Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => Code Discussion => Topic started by: Dresan on April 06, 2019, 09:16:03 AM

Title: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 06, 2019, 09:16:03 AM
I don't want this to devolve into an elves need their own clan thread because frankly they don't.

Two of the clans city elves can join are Byn and Garrison. However these two clans have a lot of outdoor activities city elves cannot easily participate in.  My idea is to allow elves following a wagons to do so without loss of stamina, just as if they were running on an open city area. In the same way following a leader with high direction sense helps the people without.

The idea would be that due to wagons being heavy their wheels compact the ground just long enough for elves to take advantage and run freely behind them. (suspension of disbelief please)

The pro of this is that elves in these two clans will be more freely able to participate in cool events outside the gate or just simple wagon escorts between Luirs and Allanak. This will basically allow more variety of the type of staff/sponsored role run events they can participate in  while under normal conditions they will have the same restrictions as always. Basically this 'ability' will always be staff controlled and monitored.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Eyeball on April 06, 2019, 10:26:45 AM
In my opinion, running should be a skill that can be trained by anyone. Desert elves would be able to attain the highest level. City elves could train to a lesser maximum, and other races hardly at all.

The higher your running skill, the less the movement stamina cost.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 06, 2019, 11:20:15 AM
In my opinion, running should be a skill that can be trained by anyone. Desert elves would be able to attain the highest level. City elves could train to a lesser maximum, and other races hardly at all.

The higher your running skill, the less the movement stamina cost.

I am not sure this is necessary. The trade off for playing a c-elf is that you don't get to easily travel or explore the known. The idea i proposed would allow c-elves to participate more easily in these events while still maintaining their travel restrictions otherwise.

At the moment, this mostly a loss to Luirs. Unfortunately though, Garrison and Byn also do a lot of traveling back and forth as part of their business as usual actives, this is just one of the many downsides to being a c-elf. However, also being limited to events that are in walking distance of home is a bit too much of a penalty especially within a clan.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Sokotra on April 06, 2019, 11:51:20 AM
I've always thought that city elves needed to, at least, be able to run without stamina loss outside on improved roads, tracks, trails, and anything like that where it is essentially not much different than a city road.  Also, perhaps a very small stamina loss when running off-road outside instead of how it is now.  This would seem to make more sense without giving them anything close to what desert elves can do now.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 06, 2019, 02:37:05 PM
I've always thought that city elves needed to, at least, be able to run without stamina loss outside on improved roads, tracks, trails, and anything like that where it is essentially not much different than a city road.  Also, perhaps a very small stamina loss when running off-road outside instead of how it is now.  This would seem to make more sense without giving them anything close to what desert elves can do now.

This would be nice to see too definitely a boon for any c-elf starting at luirs. I think the path from allanak to luirs is always going to be a very tough journey for c-elves(a fair trade off). However the surrounding 'civilized' areas around should be at least accessible assuming they are willing to take the risk. Though in all fairness traveling on road on foot is already decently manageable so it wouldn't be anything huge.


It just sucks if staff is throwing an event someone far off and exotic to the point there is no justification or reasonable way to bring a c-elf along.  :'(
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Delirium on April 06, 2019, 03:59:36 PM
Used to be, elves could be on wagons and skimmers, because their job was to guard it/be on it. They weren't using it specifically for transportation. Then that was changed for sake of 'realism', but I still disagree with it because it is a small dose of realism in exchange for a huge hit to playability & interaction. Just Handwavium That Shit (tm).
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: X-D on April 07, 2019, 07:02:22 PM
If I played an elf I would have to argue the point of skimmers.

An elf is proud of his running, don't need no stinkin mount, his legs can take him anywhere a wagon or mount can.

BUT they cannot take him where a skimmer can...same as an elf whiran using certain spells because they can do what his legs cannot.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 07, 2019, 10:25:50 PM
I find it a bit fascinating. For years city-elves have sucked, and even small changes and quality of life improvement have been rejected. In fact the few things the city elves did have slowly been taken away for one reason or another (tribes,clans, etc).

It is almost like there is a secret to c-elves that the player-base has never truly uncovered, an elf only item, ability or potential  that is so shockingly broken that they staff have had no choice to unfortunately make sure it was very hard for any c-elf player to manage. I wonder how many staff were left battered and bruised in the battle to bring them the current improvements they have had....like making it so they have an easier time finding stuff to wear. lol  ;D

I like the ideas in this thread though, just to summarize a couple of the ideas that wouldn't completely break city elves:

1.Make them able to run on roads without stamina loss- this is a bonus for elves starting in Luirs.
2. Allow them to run behind wagons- This will allow c-elves to participate more in clan events regardless of location
3. Allow them to use skimmers- boon to city elves starting in Redstorm. (this one is more arguable since it breaks a restriction of no exploration however since i would love to make a place like Redstorm more viable for city elves so i am leaving it here.)

I agree desert elves would be too proud to use a skimmer, however city elves should have enough wisdom to understand you can't run on silt anyways. It would be a cultural division more than anything else. 
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Cabooze on April 07, 2019, 11:18:25 PM
I agree desert elves would be too proud to use a skimmer, however city elves should have enough wisdom to understand you can't run on silt anyways. It would be a cultural division more than anything else.

Be the change. Sit skimmer.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Jihelu on April 08, 2019, 12:36:52 AM
I agree desert elves would be too proud to use a skimmer, however city elves should have enough wisdom to understand you can't run on silt anyways. It would be a cultural division more than anything else.

Be the change. Sit skimmer.
Sounds like a quick trip to

Staff sends you the message: We are storing your character for violating Elvish culture and norms

>Welcome to armageddon
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Eyeball on April 08, 2019, 01:23:45 AM
Would an elven Whiran refuse to fly? After all, he's being carried by the winds.

Another question, why hasn't there been a mass exodus across the Silt Sea. That would ditch the skinnies once and for all.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Jihelu on April 08, 2019, 02:41:36 AM
Staff has said before (Don't @ me its somewhere)
That:
Elves will fly using magic
Elves will NOT use magick created vehicles
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Namino on April 08, 2019, 03:08:42 AM
>Knock elf unconscious.
>drag elf onto wagon
>use smelling salts elf

What happens?

Do they suffer a schizophrenic break? Do they LITERALLY explode because their constraints are physiological and not sociological? Do they cut off their ear points and accept their new lives as humans?

???

Honestly the whole stigma against riding shit is fine, but the maniacal desire to extend it to every possible extension is silly.

As far as I feel, it should be:

Do you have to type 'mount thing'? Then no elves.

Everything else should be fine. The extension of no riding to absolutely every possible fringe case is ludicrous to me. And then we wonder why elves are so under-represented. Do you think maybe it has to do with ridiculous restrictions? Preventing elves from riding silt skimmers is just limiting those player's possibilities for absolutely no reason other than someone thought it'd be cute to see how close to the brink of insanity they could stretch the concept of 'pride in your legs.'
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Sokotra on April 08, 2019, 09:10:37 AM
>Knock elf unconscious.
>drag elf onto wagon
>use smelling salts elf

A few moments earlier:

The buff black elf with a mohawk says, in sirihish:  "I aint gettin' on no wagon with that crazy fool Murdock!"
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Riev on April 08, 2019, 10:05:27 AM
Its just elven pride, the likes of which is far too massive for their tiny frames.
The great wild Desert Elves are incredibly proud of their ability to rely on themselves first, then their family, then their tribe as a whole.

Over time, some decided to stay in the cities where they could try and trick the roundears out of their coin without always having to run across the Known to do so. These elves lost their ability to run in the sand, as they prefer smooth stone and brick.

A city-elf feeling a bit of wanderlust/tribal relations might join the Byn to be a part of something. Their job is to be on a wagon, and protect it from intruders. They aren't using the wagon to run across the sands, they're using it to be closer to their charge.

Elves, instead, choose to run behind wagons and rest in a tent every 4 leagues because they're idiots. (also because the meta of the game is that their legs must always be moving, like sharks)
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Vex on April 08, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
City elves are great, but the ooc design and limitations on them, is ridiculous.

I still maintain, my wandering elf was the most fun I've had on Arm, even with the coded frailties. It's a shame, I'll probably never play one again.

They don't even need coded pick me ups, they just to repeal some of these absurd docs.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Cabooze on April 08, 2019, 02:50:07 PM
They don't even need coded pick me ups, they just to repeal some of these absurd docs.

Yes. Please. A lot of the doc repeals could come down to common sense as well. Elves skim, because you cannot run on silt. Elves can rest on wagons, as long as that's all it is and they aren't explicitly relying on the wagon for travel. Like.... Really?
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 09, 2019, 12:48:49 PM
I also wish city elves we better at running in the cities at least.

The stamina loss for the major road ways are no different than humans I think.  I would like to see them have reduced stamina loss in this regard and if they are going to get tired, maybe increased stamina regen even if it is only within cities.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Namino on April 09, 2019, 01:33:30 PM
I also wish city elves we better at running in the cities at least.

The stamina loss for the major road ways are no different than humans I think.  I would like to see them have reduced stamina loss in this regard and if they are going to get tired, maybe increased stamina regen even if it is only within cities.

Amusingly, when my desert elf went to Luirs, I discovered I could run inside the outpost with no stamina drain whatsoever.

Desert elves are the real city elves.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 15, 2019, 12:32:38 PM
I don't see why city-elves would have an issue riding mounts at all. I know that the elven race is all one unified thing, but it ain't and no one's fooled. I much prefer my city elves to have zero standards as long as it's for the big heist, whatever that may be.

On another note, why the original attack on ride for city elves anyway. Is high agility + riding just stupid good? Was it to dissuade them from leaving the walls? Was it an idea thought up for one group of elves and umbrellaed to all of them? I'm curious what the end goal here was.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Cerelum on April 15, 2019, 12:34:11 PM
Elves not riding I totally understand.  Now elves not getting in a wagon or on a skimmer, that is what seems like a stretch to me.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Jihelu on April 15, 2019, 12:37:35 PM
I don't see why city-elves would have an issue riding mounts at all. I know that the elven race is all one unified thing, but it ain't and no one's fooled. I much prefer my city elves to have zero standards as long as it's for the big heist, whatever that may be.

On another note, why the original attack on ride for city elves anyway. Is high agility + riding just stupid good? Was it to dissuade them from leaving the walls? Was it an idea thought up for one group of elves and umbrellaed to all of them? I'm curious what the end goal here was.

Keeping with Dark Sun lore, probably.

Elves 'ran', its what they did.

Now here's the funny thing....in Dark Sun...ALL elves could run outdoors. 'City elves' were just elves who stayed in the city to trade what their tribe brought to the city OR their tribe died out/they were banished for whatever reason. Elves rarely settled in the cities long con. (Due to their chaotic/neutral nature they liked being nomadic. And not 'moves between the same 3 spots throughout the year' nomadic, but 'I go where the wind carries me' nomadic)
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Cerelum on April 15, 2019, 12:55:36 PM
It's most likely because if any elf could have desert elf run, everyone who likes ranger types, would be an elf to avoid having to have a mount.

I'm guessing that's why all elves can't run through the desert for one stamina or whatever.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: lostinspace on April 15, 2019, 12:58:31 PM
It's most likely because if any elf could have desert elf run, everyone who likes ranger types, would be an elf to avoid having to have a mount.

I'm guessing that's why all elves can't run through the desert for one stamina or whatever.

Last I checked city elves weren't able to play one of the wilderness classes. Just like desert elves can't play city classes and muls can't play mages.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 15, 2019, 01:02:58 PM
Elves not riding -- No problems
City Elves having a hard time outdoors/travel because no riding/effective running--- Peace
City Elves not getting on wagons/skimmers--  Umm, okay  :(
City Elves having more difficulty participating in routine clan events --  :'(
 
City elves not even able to run better than humans in city with except to a couple spots, getting tired while having terrible stamina recovery rates within cities--- wha?  :o
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: titansfan on April 15, 2019, 01:46:24 PM
You forgot encumberance penalties too!
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Cerelum on April 15, 2019, 01:55:02 PM
Well elves are sorta supposed to be super fast pussies right?

They aren't supposed to be able to haul tons of shit are they?
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 15, 2019, 02:07:57 PM
Just focusing on their ability to run even if light encumbrance. Their strength penalties and clan options would be off-topic for this thread.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: titansfan on April 15, 2019, 03:23:31 PM
I was talking about running,  in desert,  in the city.  All of it. Water is heavy. Food is heavy. City Elves being fast but tiring just as easily as other races.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: MeTekillot on April 15, 2019, 03:23:51 PM
City elves get -1 stam cost running in city rooms, so many rooms cost 0 stam to run in, though there are those 3-4 run stam cost rooms.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dar on April 15, 2019, 05:35:50 PM
Where is the notion of celves running worse then humans coming from? Celves movement is fastest in the game. Faster then delves even. Celves have the easiest time of getting rid of tails. Just run a few rooms and whomever is shadowing you will fall behind. Revealing himself 'and' getting a massive delay pounded on them.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Strongheart on April 15, 2019, 05:59:44 PM
The matter being discussed is that elves should be able to run great distances without falter, which is what they do in the city. However, they lack the endurance that a desert elf provides when it comes to the outdoors, which makes some sense although it is a bit silly in application given the size of the world.

Any city elf worth their salt can become top of the food chain in the city, and I can say from experience that it's a frightening experience to play during hours where city elves just so happen to be plentiful! Being a human Rinther without any support other than yourself while you got elves running around who are master sneakies? Terrifying, especially when you take in blowdarts, poisons, and all that rigmarole... typing "hunt" and seeing that they're stalking you while there's not much you can do about it.

Under the right circumstances and from certain playstyles, city elves are not to be trifled with! Makes me scared of city play :'(
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 15, 2019, 06:02:54 PM
Where is the notion of celves running worse then humans coming from?

It is because they get as tired as humans running on major streets. Maybe rinthi/nakkie c-elves get different location bonus. Don't believe so but its been a while, maybe something changed.

They do move and walk faster, I believe its thanks to agility(?) and height though. Height adding to size which makes all things weigh a lot more.  Not sure its the best trade off anymore seeing that 3 stone leather and chitin cheap vest suddenly become 17 stones.  :-\
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Heade on April 16, 2019, 10:01:34 AM
I could get behind this as a wagon-only feature. I mean, walking/running along in the shadow of a wagon wouldn't be as bad as simply running along solo in the desert with the heat pounding down on you, and the wagon can be assumed to be carrying supplies like water and such so that they don't have to weigh themselves down while running.

Since wagons are basically only available to the large organizations, by making it only function while they're following a wagon, it would ensure that this only has an effect on elves that are part of those organizations, without altering the theme of city elves themselves.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on April 16, 2019, 12:52:15 PM
Suddenly it occurs to me that there are actually very few situations (to my knowledge at least) in which elves would be permitted to follow along a wagon (typically owned by rich humans) and especially store their stinky elf crap on board.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Dresan on April 16, 2019, 02:08:47 PM
I could get behind this as a wagon-only feature. I mean, walking/running along in the shadow of a wagon wouldn't be as bad as simply running along solo in the desert with the heat pounding down on you, and the wagon can be assumed to be carrying supplies like water and such so that they don't have to weigh themselves down while running.

Elves can use mounts to carry their heavy stuff too and just lead them along.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: AdamBlue on April 16, 2019, 03:51:15 PM
Are elves allowed climbing gear?
If so, are they allowed skis, or something similar?
In the circumstance they have to follow behind a wagon have them put on some shoes that allow them to run across the sands with greater ease while holding onto a rope that allows them to keep pace.
Is it time for a SURFING SAFARI?
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Seeker on April 16, 2019, 03:58:54 PM
A couple things:

Part of this hardship on c-elf travel was caused by the severing of the roadway between Allanak and Luirs.  C-elves didn't have near so difficult a time of it before every possible route north led through some of the gameworld's most hostile terrain.  That road north was haunted by gith, led to frequent inadvertent tumbles over the edge of the Shield Wall, but it was much more manageable by c-elves than anything we have now.

Second part: the comparatively recent decision by staff to change the OOC rules regarding elvish culture and their pride in running seems wrong-headed if it truly is as it is being described.  Elves wouldn't ride in wagons. They would not ever be passengers.

I disagree that elves wouldn't work on a moving wagon.  A paid elven guard is not riding.  He is being an awesome guard.  He almost certainly should prefer to run but he shouldn't be OOC barred from working.

Consider a d-elf warband.  They are permitted by culture to shoot all the arrows they want into a wagon, but the moment they board to capture it as a warprize, they would become shamed pariahs to their people?  They aren't boarding for a lazy weak-leg ride.  They are boarding to steal, murder and show their superiority.  Once the passengers are killed and the invading wagon is burned to the ground, they shouldn't  be expected to have commit seppuku.

I'm not advocating for elves to allowed to sit in the loading platform of a rolling wagon, dangling their feet and shooting the breeze.  I'm suggesting that a clanned elf assigned to guard a chest on a moving wagon shouldn't automatically be treated to OOC storage.

The current position from this version of staff as is being described by affected players probably needs to be clarified or re-evaluated.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 17, 2019, 10:01:53 PM
It's poorly designed culture. And even worse gameplay. And it feels like it was written poorly in order to patch some sort of gameplay element that it never really fixed.

I honestly can't believe we're still talking about it after ten years(that I've been around) of nearly everyone, except apparently staff, agreeing that it is shitty.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: tapas on April 18, 2019, 08:43:35 AM
At least they stripped "wandering" out of the docs. Hah.
Title: Re: City Elves: Running behind wagons
Post by: Riev on April 18, 2019, 09:19:29 AM
I honestly can't believe we're still talking about it after ten years(that I've been around) of nearly everyone, except apparently staff, agreeing that it is shitty.

Its rather commonplace. The vocal majority on the boards, which isn't representative of ALL the players really, sees things one way. Influential Staffers A and B see things a different way. They don't feel the need to explain their position, we are players in THEIR game, and they don't want us pissing in their sandbox.

As much as Brokkr and I disagree about core things, that trend has shifted SLIGHTLY in that things do get explained.