Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: gotdamnmiracle on January 07, 2019, 06:38:21 PM

Title: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 07, 2019, 06:38:21 PM
I feel like this deserves its own thread. Can we compile some ideas to accomplish making magick users actually scary (again? I'm not sure if they ever were). This includes roleplay from both perspectives, doc changes, coded additions, whatever really.

I'll start.

In the other thread I mention incentives for magick users to want to take advantage of mundanes, these could include borrowing statistical advantages using some curse or using them in the craft of certain components.

Perhaps also magick could be more fluid. Currently it works similar to something out of WoW where you use up your mana and it refills over time. I think it shouldn't. Not naturally. If you use up your mana it won't refill ever outside of certain conditions. As a result of this all magick users should be given the ability to defile. The gem controls and bonds this making their defiling abilities null and the only way gemmed users can regain mana within the city is in their temples. Elemental defiling is a lot less potent than that of sorcerers and can only be used to pull from the land or others if they are willing. Any attempt to defile someone who doesn't offer to will fail (nosave). Suddenly you have evil dune-witches and culled gemmers. Also this makes the neutering aspect of the gem a lot more pronounced.

If any of this is too IC I will remove it immediately, but this is a suggestion nothing, to my knowledge, related to the game.

What are your ideas?

Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on January 07, 2019, 07:04:08 PM
If you actually play based on the available documentation, magick is plenty scary. The problem isn't with the game.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 07, 2019, 07:10:43 PM
If you actually play based on the available documentation, magick is plenty scary. The problem isn't with the game.

Please try to be constructive.

If the problem is that the players don't get it then it should be designed in such a way that they do. Perhaps this means making the documentation more available or specific?

If no one could figure out how to use a type of screwdriver properly you wouldn't say that all those people are morons, would you?
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Brokkr on January 07, 2019, 07:23:23 PM
Magick is designed to be mysterious.  It is thus hard to discern which board warriors know what they are talking about, and which do not.

I think one thing the other thread pointed out pretty clearly is that for some people, magickers being scary is all about if they can kill your character or not.  Making them spooky won't necessarily make them scary to such people.

Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 07, 2019, 07:46:15 PM
Part of what used to make magick spooky, to me, is that I (the player) didn't know much at all about it. Unknown = mysterious = potential for max spook.

Once I knew how it worked, by playing mages, a lot of the mystery was eliminated, and therefore a lot of what made it spooky.

On the other hand, now I KNEW what mages could do, and that added a different aspect of spookiness, because I knew the significance and level of scary "stuff" it could do.

And then the magick aspects were split off and the main guilds eliminated, and that meant "things a, b, and c" that I knew "element #1" could do, they no longer can do all together. No single mage can do all of those things anymore. And that reduced my sense of "spook" even more.

Now, as a player, there's no spookiness at all involved. As a player, I know what these things can do, but more importantly, I know what they can't do. It was the combination of things they could do that made them as spooky as I felt they were, even after I learned what they could do and the mystery was removed.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 07, 2019, 07:59:26 PM
Magick is designed to be mysterious.  It is thus hard to discern which board warriors know what they are talking about, and which do not.

I think one thing the other thread pointed out pretty clearly is that for some people, magickers being scary is all about if they can kill your character or not.  Making them spooky won't necessarily make them scary to such people.

Ah. Okay. So I think I may have a misunderstanding of the fundamental elements you're trying to foster with them. Is the binary scary/not scary okay? Or do we want a general feeling of magick=bad stuff, similar to how a lot of people view radiation in real life?

It feels a lot easier to empathize with the current magick user because they're usually just normal dudes who are misunderstood. I mean, there's a reason the X-men franchise is so beloved. So the disconnect occurs because we're told to do one thing, but know another. (Treat them badly, they often aren't bad). I just want there to be some reasons for the magick user to be a "bad" guy. I know of none specific to them other than those available to everyone such as material wealth and psychopathy, I guess. Not very appealing. Doesn't the corrupting search for power seem appropriate?

I don't foresee my indie elementalist on a search for immense power getting much staff support in the current iteration of the game.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Brokkr on January 07, 2019, 08:06:55 PM
You perceive the X-Men that way because you are the reader, who sees their side.

In Arm, you are not the reader.  You are the common person that votes for politicians to persecute them, because you hate them and don't care to see their side.

It isn't the magicker that needs the reasons (although they exist).  It is the common man, who doesn't really need any reason other than their own ignorance, close mindedness and prejudices.  Which gives rise to a far more complex flavor of scary than simple binary scary/not scary. It is meant to be an unfair, stifling environment, not one where modern sensibilities of fairness come into play.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 07, 2019, 08:47:34 PM
If you want magickers to be scary you need people in game acting like they are scary. Because it's not just their "power" where fear is derived from. It's their mystery, their foreignness, and most importantly the superstitious parts of the culture that has taught you since childhood that the bad things happen because of magick and magickers.

That's where the majority of the spooky nature of magickers come from and it's really in the players hands to represent that fear and ignorance.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Cind on January 07, 2019, 10:25:31 PM
I still think witches are pretty scary. But a few things have changed in the past few years:

It is now a lot more advantageous to be unmanifested for a game year or more in order to train your stealth or combat skills, or make powerful friends as a socialite, than it is to come out of chargen with a gem or as a rogue. This began when mages became subguilds, but is a lot more pronounced with the guild changes, where people with dangerous jobs are a lot more likely to survive to the point where they can be witches.

Because people are playing more unmanifested witches, they are making friends, and from past experience most of my mundane friends still remain my friends after I become a witch. They don't necessarily huggle me in public, but they're there when I need them. When its 'your' witch, its less scary.

Recently there have been a couple or more groups openly utilizing nonmundanes as integral parts of the group. While this could happen anytime, it is a bit unusual and while it is scary when said group is after you, it helps give magick more 'normal' points.

Tuluk is closed--- meaning all those people who are hyper-sensitive to making friends with witches or even doing business with them are gone, leaving the more fluid cultures of Allanak, Luir's and Storm that are all more likely to allow witches to do small business tasks and be awkward friends with.

The 'place to be' is now Allanak--- easily the world's most witch-friendly culture, if for nothing else because the quarter is there, and all that means for the witch population and ease of witch living.

When summoned by the Arm into a combat zone, witches are no longer the defenseless merchants of the group, and are combatively useful much more often. I haven't been in the Arm lately, but this has probably meant more witches being used by the Arm.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Greve on January 08, 2019, 12:39:34 AM
People stop acting like magick is scary because they haven't seen magick be scary for such a long time. Players simply aren't exposed to it in any way that leaves an impression. For all the things that were controversial about the design of the old sorcerers and elementalists, they most certainly gave players a reason to care. It's not that trying the classes removes some Lovecraftian fear of the unknown. It's about the fact that magick just isn't a thing that matters anymore. You can ask players to read the documentation until you're blue in the face, but if the game they play never reflects what's written there, they won't adhere to it.

Magick characters have been reduced to a shadow of their former selves. Remember Plainsman? Black Tembo? Lord of Storms? Quick? These are legendary entities that people still talk about to this day, and it's not always because they were exemplary roleplayers. It's because they embodied the very thing that the documentation tells us: magick is a terrifying, world-destroying force of which people live in perpetual fear. Except these days, since magick characters don't fit that bill, people don't have that reaction. It has been turned into something that players don't feel compelled to care about.

People now know that a sorcerer is limited to one path of magick and therefore can't live the defiler life. You can't survive being a world villain without the whole catalogue of spells, it's as simple as that. And elementalists are reduced to a handful of spells grafted to a mundane class, and often the magick part represents nothing but a stat boost or some similar gimmick. This means that these characters have to be played in a way where the magick aspect is a sidenote, a token trait that probably doesn't even justify the social stigma and is therefore kept out of sight and mind. It stops mattering to people because they never see it.

If full elementalists and sorcerers are brought back to the game, fear of magick will follow. Players weren't afraid solely because some piece of supplementary literature said they ought to be. They were afraid because they'd seen the power wielded by those characters and knew what it could do to them. Now they know that this is no longer the case, and while you can suspend your disbelief for some amount of time, eventually you neglect it if the realities of the game don't match the documentation. It would be the same thing if people stopped playing elves: sooner or later, folks would forget to hate them.

This, coupled with declining player numbers and thus density of magickal occurrences, has cost the game one of its key features. Add full elementalists and sorcerers again and I think it would bring a boost both to player numbers and to the way they treat this aspect of Zalanthas. The magick subguilds don't need to be removed, they're fine for what they are. They just shouldn't have replaced the actual mages that carried the torch of magick roleplay.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: X-D on January 08, 2019, 01:18:28 AM
While I mostly agree with Greve, I don't agree that full elementalists need be returned to the game...certain tweeks to what there already is should do it. Like, Since Drov and Elkros are no longer in game, return the spells that they stole from the other 4 elementalist back to them...and even split up the the rest of the spells where feasible to them. I can think of a certain 2 spells that drov got that whiran used to get that would make the illusion aspect of whira quite a troublemaker.

Next, put some real work into a synergy to each of these subs, I think I see a bit of the work done already to ruk and whirans, and I approve...just a bit more to each of them for utility and survival and should be good.

Lastly, increase mana regen some or the mana pool...The usefulness/utility/scariness of MANY spells is directly related to how often they can be cast.

Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: tapas on January 08, 2019, 01:27:52 AM
Heh heh. Board Warriors.

It's one of the more salient disconnects of the game's mechanics. I've seen plenty of emnity and hatred of magickers. Emotions ranging from disgust to disquiet. But fear? Nah. Tough Guy Mcfly gonna break yo' face if you do any spooksy shit.

And I got two reasons for that.

1.The powers that be will pop any magicker that tries to be spooky in their roleplay. Gemmed cantrips in the bar? Expect a templar. Emoting cantrips outside? Expect arrows, or Faceroll the dwarf.

2. The mechanics are generally well understood by the playerbase. Every player knows that you need to be in the same room as you to cast a spell on them. They know you need to be standing. And that if any spellcasting happens the crimcode will go apeshit on you. They know that they could probably kill you just by face rolling before you have a chance to react. They know that killing you solves the problem every time.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Cind on January 08, 2019, 07:26:15 AM
I think Greve kind of hit the nail on the head. Remove the ability of witches to be frightening, and the playerbase will follow.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on January 08, 2019, 08:58:05 AM
I keep seeing people go back to mechanics and meta information. Remember, this is an RPG. It doesn't matter what they can do code-wise, they are magickers. Any minor display or even suspicion of magickal ability (did you argue with your neighbor before you got sick? 'gicker!") should be RPed according to the docs, not according to how many skillz you know they have.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: number13 on January 08, 2019, 11:26:11 AM
>Tough Guy Mcfly gonna break yo' face if you do any spooksy shit.

Violence is an appropriate response to fear.

If you want to be creepy, then be creepy. Be something that no one else is allowed to completely understand. If you hang out in the taverns all day, or train away with the Byn, then people will understand your character, in some part. Creepy lives on the edge of perception, not in focus. Creepy is making someone wonder, and come up with wild speculation, leading to dread.

Creepy is not yanking someone over a pit with your ranged spell. That's not creepy. That's lame bullshit. I never felt an ounce of fear in those situations, just eye-rolling cringe, and a desire to rage quit.

There are mundane elves and one particular mundane noble I've RPed with that were 10000% more creepy than any full-class elementalist. That templar that used to talk through his NPC...that's was creepy. Personally, I think I had the most success being creepy with a character that had just one special super power, pathetic PvP potential, and no magical abilities whatsoever.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Eyeball on January 08, 2019, 06:17:33 PM
People would fear mages more if they had some spells that (1) worked at a distance, and (2) caused some kind of non-lethal, but negative, effect. Maybe as simple as receiving a message like "a shocking pain stabs through your head" or "you have a sudden vision of a horribly twisted, screaming face" once in a while.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: ABoredLion on January 08, 2019, 06:46:28 PM
Creepy does not usually mean scary, and the point that a few people have brought up that sort of plainly hangs in the air is that no matter how well played and to the documentation you could be, or were, if you are a magicker it's not fear people greet you with for the most part. They're usually quite ready to play up the scorn and such. (Because that can give them plenty of reason to commit violence and other things)

But genuine fear? That a magicker might sneeze and then suddenly you lose the ability to have kids? Or they might laugh, and flames crackle, and your flesh gets covered in boils for weeks? That they might make the ground rumble when they're displeased, and you need to go offer food to the land or your home might get swallowed up by the ground? I've played for five years, and I've never seen this fear played out like this to a degree that's reasonable, not from the staffers I've played alongside, not from the players that I've worked under, not from the various other people I've been involved with distantly.

While I as much as any other think it's a shame that story can be ignored for code often, that's been a thing of trouble for ages and the only time people (at large) can be found to reasonably react with fear to something is if it poses a threat to them or their wants/plans on an IC basis. In the other thread, I spoke of deadliness to a PC being relative to danger, and a great example was drovians. Drovians were stupidly deadly -- not because they were capable of coming out of nowhere with one or two drov-buddies and killing you. It's because they were untouchable for the most part. They could learn everything that made you tick, while remaining safe. The danger of a magicker is relative to how easy they are to kill, because anyone in this game, anywhere, has a way to be killed, but when you start removing all of the basic options, and making it difficult to kill them in a forward confrontation, while they're also stupidly strong in general confrontations, they start becoming these immovable, dangerous obstacles that are capable of messing up your plans or actually killing whoever back if it comes to it.

If you're getting dragged into a hole by a magicker, and your only response is, 'That's lame.' then yea, I can understand why you feel that way. But you're never going to be afraid to begin with, so I think you should probably be removed from the metric for measurement involved. Creepy can inspire fear...but creepy inspires it OR unease relative to how much danger is perceived, which is similar but a little different. Fear (as it is defined) is about perceived danger and threat to you invoking a response. If you don't have the response, then you don't have it. That's fine. If you don't have the response and your PC doesn't react like their life is in danger, then you're doing something wrong.

This is all really just a food for thought kind of thing, while we're debating it, but I don't think magickers should feed off of the land or other people. That goes against everything we know about the documentation and the lore. As it is, if I kept to the documentation entirely though, and played a magicker out in the open, there'd be no allies anywhere, no friends, no real interaction past a certain point, except through others, and for various reasons, this is a hard thing to string together. Roleplay is only fun when you're interacting with people. While you don't necessarily need many, you need a handful of consistent people part of a story (or a handful of changing people that are replacing others dying) to keep things interesting or actually happening. Otherwise, Armageddon becomes a solo-RP experience in between hack-and-slash animal murder, or shopkeeping.

I don't think staff are too judgmental when it comes to people interacting with magickers, but what do I know. That's the job of other characters in the game world, to varying degrees. Important to remember that everyone develops organically (I hope) with things that drive them to do the things they do.

Edit: Giving more distance based spells to everyone would up the terror factor, for sure. And I don't mean 'one room over'. If a Krathi could send a little homing missile that would look for someone within X room distance (even if it dealt very little damage), everyone would shit their pants I think. We get into trouble there with all sorts of balance issues though. I don't think echoing 'a sudden vision of blah blah blah' is a good idea, due to that being a nice trick of the ye olde Jedis that we don't want to take away.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 08, 2019, 07:09:44 PM
Code: [Select]
A Viv working magick around you might dehydrate you and suck the water from your waterskins.
A Krathi working magick around you might scorch your clothes, or catch them on fire.
A Rukkian working magick around you might cause you to sneeze dirt or be blinded by dust.
A Whiran working magick around you might knock you off your feet because of sudden gusts of wind, or blow something you're holding off in a direction.

I've always liked the idea of being around magick potentially being a coded detriment for mundanes. It's not something the magickers would try to do - it's something that would just happen around them when they cast spells that they couldn't help. Perhaps they could protect a few companions from these effects, but for the most part, just being around a casting mage would be scary code-wise for mundanes.

Code: [Select]
A Viv might curse you to always be thirsty for x IG hours.
A Krathi might curse you with a weak bloodburn.
A Rukkian might curse you to move slow for x IG hours.
A Whiran might curse you to be unable to listen for x IG hours.

I've always loved the idea of curses being a real thing, with overlapping curses between classes that made figuring out what sort of mage had cursed you hard or impossible. There wouldn't be a message telling you who had cursed you. You would just start experiencing these detrimental effects, and you would have to beg a magicker to uncurse you before the timer ran out. You wouldn't want these curses to be unplayable effects, just hindrances that just made the idea of being around a magicker unpopular.

Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Heade on January 08, 2019, 08:37:50 PM
The following reply was from another thread, but I think it's applicable to this one:

Let me give you a better example.

You're a Person. It's real life. You've done a little hunting before, and are out in the plains, hunting with your small calibre rifle on your motorbike it's a sunny day, and everything seems fine, even if the woods are a -little- quieter than usual. Suddenly, you hear a growl and turn, and there before you is a fully grown, snarling Lion,  standing on two feet, with a pair of fucking plasma firing AK-47's in his hands with opposable thumbs and itchy trigger fingers. Your buddy you've been hunting with guns his motorbike away firing a round at the obviously magical lion you've discovered yelling at you to run.

You gonna stand your ground and try and take it down with your .22 rifle, or get the fuck out of the way of the plasma firing AK wielding Lion? Because, I know what I'm doing, I'm running as far away from the motherfucker with the AK's, because if the lion can appear like that in the open, holding AK's like Rambo that shoot fucking lasers, I don't want to be anywhere near it.

Because that essentially what you should be picturing whenever your scenario occurs.

(https://tenor.com/z0Bu.gif)

Apologies if I rambled, Its late, I had a long day, and I'm trying to cut chocolate and some other shit from my diet.

I don't think this is a valid comparison. IRL, we "know" magic to be mythical, so seeing something like that, that challenged our idea of reality is a completely different thing than seeing a magicker in Zalanthas.

In Zalanthas, magick exists, and everyone knows it. Sure, it's supposed to be rare and mysterious, but it really isn't all that rare. And if you're playing a character that is in a position where they're forced to amiably deal with magickers on a regular basis(such as certain Militia positions), there is only so far you can go with the whole "magick is scary" thing before you can't ICly justify it as really being that scary any more.

The lack of rarity is making magick mainstream in Armageddon. Mainstream things aren't that scary, unless it can actually hurt you.

I understand that having a completely dynamic magick system isn't something that's possible with our current system. So, we currently have a static system that is meant to represent a dynamic "reality" IC.

Maybe we could let magick subguilds "custom craft" a spell effect or two within their given element over the lifetime of a magicker. This would allow them to better represent the fact that magick, in the gameworld, is a dynamic thing, and not static. It'd be supported by the code, and would work to ensure that each individual magicker holds some wonder and mystery, where people don't necessarily know the full extent of their capabilities.

I'd also like to discuss ways to make magickers more rare in general. It's really tiring playing a mundane in a position where you learn who many of the secret magickers are, and it ends up being just about EVERYONE of any note.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 08, 2019, 09:44:25 PM
Add magick spells that permanently debilitate instead of just giving you temporary debuffs. Nothing really scratches someone's fear like the possibility of permanent disability. Seeing something you used to be able to permanently affected for the worse? That's true fear.

On the same token, let people become permanently more formidable as a result of magick, with magick being the only counter to remove said strength.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: ABoredLion on January 08, 2019, 10:01:21 PM
I definitely wouldn't recommend random effects on people surrounding them at this point. Most of the effects you pointed out are actually already covered in the more dangerous and involved things that some magickers do. Whether or not they hit allies is super dependent on the thing in question, let me tell you what, heh.

That aside, my point (and the point of this thread) isn't to give people more reason to kill magickers. It's to give them a reason to fear them, and I think little curses might have some merit if they affect people from a distance, but do I want random curses and effects just slung around? No. I don't really think that's accurate to how hard it is to utilize magick to an effective degree in the game world and the effects of mana.

Contrary to what everyone is saying, I haven't seen some massive wealth of magickers everywhere, constantly involved in everything. As someone who has wandered around and known a lot of people, while there was the occasional magicker cropping up, I didn't see literally 'all' or even half the most powerful well known people turn out to be magickers. I'd be curious to see how statistics would back that up, or deny it, but I think addressing these issues is a derailment of the thread.

In a world where you're constantly dealing with magickers on many levels (of power) and they're supposed to be something scary for a variety of reasons, you need a reason for that. Not that they might accidentally do something to you. That they might intentionally do something to you. If it's only ever that random, no-name commoners with no power or influence or skill that are scared of magickers, then of course we've got this problem. By this logic, every bynner doesn't need to fear them with a little training.

The only way to still inflict the fear in these types to the degree recommended (where violence isn't a go to, or even ready made back up option) is to make them codedly incapable of committing that in a way that is easy.

Permanent disabilities due to being hit with certain spells or effects could be an interesting way of dealing with this, to some degree though, dependingly. Or something similar. Having a way to grow stronger due to magick as well that could be permanent might be good.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Brytta Léofa on January 08, 2019, 10:06:56 PM
+1 to everybody upping their roleplay and thinking beyond the code.
+1 to everybody who plays a spooky character, wiggly or not.
+1 to giving mages additional avenues for harming with you on the sly.
+1 to giving mages ways to cause lasting harm without killing you.

Y'know,
+1 to giving mundanes ways to cause lasting harm without killing you, too.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 08, 2019, 10:10:30 PM
I've tried to RP fear of mages, or rather, fear of magicks (and by extension, people who can wield them). I've tried leading by example in public places. I was met with the overall attitude that my fears were unfounded because no one they know, has ever told them about anyone THEY know, who was ACTUALLY cursed in any way shape or form by any mages - and therefore - it's just a myth and my character is an idiot for believing it.

It makes me pretty sad, and annoyed, and frustrated, because I'm TRYING to roleplay according to the docs and get counterpointed by the actuality of the present IC game environment, and there's really no defense against that.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 08, 2019, 10:43:04 PM
+1 to everybody upping their roleplay and thinking beyond the code.
+1 to everybody who plays a spooky character, wiggly or not.
+1 to giving mages additional avenues for harming with you on the sly.
+1 to giving mages ways to cause lasting harm without killing you.

Y'know,
+1 to giving mundanes ways to cause lasting harm without killing you, too.

Hell yeah.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Jihelu on January 08, 2019, 11:02:51 PM
I've tried to RP fear of mages, or rather, fear of magicks (and by extension, people who can wield them). I've tried leading by example in public places. I was met with the overall attitude that my fears were unfounded because no one they know, has ever told them about anyone THEY know, who was ACTUALLY cursed in any way shape or form by any mages - and therefore - it's just a myth and my character is an idiot for believing it.

It makes me pretty sad, and annoyed, and frustrated, because I'm TRYING to roleplay according to the docs and get counterpointed by the actuality of the present IC game environment, and there's really no defense against that.
I've seen this kind of thing happen.
It hurts my heart.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Harmless on January 09, 2019, 09:26:25 AM
I think yelling at people to RP better is a non solution to the problem.

Real problem #1 is a widespread bitterness that entire groups of content, all the mainguild magickers, were taken away.

Bitterness ends up being RPed as a protest against the fear of magickers. The lack of coded power of multiple magicker types gives the bitter player the fuel they need to suddenly rp not giving a fuck about magickers (there are still scary magicks, just not most magickers. The scariest are 3 karma now).

Now, I don't think I am in this category because I did enjoy some of the subguilds I played, but I didn't enjoy most of them. I am tapping out of playing magickers now for the most part having seen what I have seen.

I gave specific feedback when a certain magick subguild wad just so bad that I felt it needed repairs in a report to staff.

Real problem #2 is that players are not just being told to fear magickers or else. They are being told to enjoy the new subguild magickers or else. However the thematic difference is huge between being so involved in magick that it is a part of what you are (mainguild) and being a secretive part time magick user (subguild) that I basically agree; the docs no longer match the reality of how magickers are ROLEPLAYED. Magickers are described as being sources of fear and hate, but in ye olde days a magicker trying to accomplish anything needed to invoke weird magickal talents to get stuff done and it was unsettling. Now a magicker functions more like a stealth mage and would rather as few people know about their abilities as possible, since they can be countered as soon as their few tricks are revealed.

Either fix the docs with new lore or have more IC events that might affect lore or add more opportunities to RP with magick (vague suggestion I know) or just modify the subguilds based on what the players want. I don't care how it is done. I think there is merit to realizing that we now have a mismatch between code, docs, and what is RPed. I don't think criticizing the situation makes anyone a bad RPer.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Riev on January 09, 2019, 11:10:06 AM
I think yelling at people to RP better is a non solution to the problem.

This needs to be emphasized.

Be the change. Think differently. Do better. Try harder. You don't get it. Its all gatekeeping by any other phrase, which Armageddon is notorious for. "You don't belong if you don't agree, and we have no care to help until you prove you're worth helping."

I agree with Harmless that with main guild magick, you had to basically find broken ass old skulls and artifacts of the Old World to summon enough power to do something mildly spooky. A lot of component spells were really strange and weird, and the idea of how to find and create components is also quite foreign. A person randomly coveting some angular stone should be VERY weird and a trigger to think they're off their rocker.

We were told the change was OOC. We were told it wasn't. We were told that NPCs and the virtual world still has magicks that we don't have access to anymore. We were told this this is better. We were told this is what people wanted. We are still told to "just enjoy what we've done for you" despite not asking for it.

SHOW US HOW TO DO IT. Post a story. Run a plot. Engage with the community about what you want and how you want it, so it has ideas about your expectations. It is a tough pill to swallow when one is told it is their own fault, without knowing why or how it should have been.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 09, 2019, 12:09:53 PM

Real problem #1 is a widespread bitterness that entire groups of content, all the mainguild magickers, were taken away.

Bitterness ends up being RPed as a protest against the fear of magickers. The lack of coded power of multiple magicker types gives the bitter player the fuel they need to suddenly rp not giving a fuck about magickers (there are still scary magicks, just not most magickers. The scariest are 3 karma now).


It's ironic that you post this 2 posts after mine. I'm one of the saltiest, bitterest people who still actually plays Armageddon, with regards to the split of the magick main guilds.  I've even been teased about it on the GDB by staff in the past.

But as I said in my previous post - just two posts behind yours: I have tried to lead by example in roleplaying a fear of magick. I've tried it. Often in fact. Before the split and after. I've been met with "yeah everyone knows they can't do that so stop being stupid." In some cases, I was met with a veiled, but clear message of "they're allowed by Tek, so you should just make friends with them." I've been met with a carefully worded "I've kanked one and my junk didn't fall off."

Everyone is out to prove my character wrong. But my character is being played by one of the saltiest, bitterest pro-old-style-magick players still playing the game.

So no, I don't feel that being salty and bitter is a widespread cause of lack of RPed fear. I feel that there are mages [edited to add] and characters who interact with mages being played by newer players who don't know better, and not enough actual code to back up a reason to have a RPed fear.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Cind on January 11, 2019, 04:13:50 AM
Bring main guild magickers back. Make them 2 or 3 karma. Make it so that if someone special apps a main guild witch but has not played one or two subguild witches, staff would deny their request, and state that in the karma docs.

It kind of reminds me of how things were when subguild witches began. People didn't know enough about the subguilds to stop fearing them, and main guilds were still around, with no way to tell the difference. Peoples' fear levels were -exactly the same as before.- Let's bring that back.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: AdamBlue on January 11, 2019, 04:49:25 AM
Here's a hot take, but I think that magic should actually have some different things, seeing as that different places use magic differently. This also applies culturally.

I think magick subclasses should be more varied just like regular classes are now, split between 'Offense, Defense, General' and 'Criminal, Wilderness, General', and done for each element.

After all, a Krathi in the wild may have an amazing time just killing the shit with crazy fire magic, but a criminal krathi may enjoy the more 'guile' that Krathi can give, while a 'generalist/city' fellow wants a little bit of both. While one can argue that the current 'paths' there are  may indicate that 'there is something like this', I think the idea can be refined further so a character can specifically get an idea of what the hell he's getting himself into and what his character's specifics lean towards. 'I want to play a criminal character, so I want magic that is subtle.' 'I want to play a city-based fighting character that only uses magic when absolutely necessary' 'I want to play a wilderness character that can literally nuke a mekillot'.
Make it way harder for mages to know who other mages are.
Magic is scary, and a powerful character (socially, economically, physically) is scary by themselves, but if you combine both into something specifically tailored towards the character, it becomes something that drives plots.
Yes, crime lord IS actually watching you talk behind their back. Constantly.
Yes, the undefeatable warrior of the wastes can actually pick up and throw a mekillot.
It seems that really old warrior's health just keeps on kickin'! He barely has any scars, for some of the wounds I've seen him take!

Make it harder to distinguish what is fiction, and what is reality. Mix up what 'oh yeah, he's a magicker' with 'oh my god this guy is a fucking monster.'
Make touched characters under the effects of magickal buffs without actually using magic during times of problems.

Imagine a Rukkian who, when he is panicking, suddenly finds that his foes simply cannot hurt him?
The Whiran who nearly falls from the shield wall but finds herself gracefully gliding to the bottom.
The Krathi who accidently greets a Templar in fucking Tatlum.
Make it more unpredictable.
Honestly, I have a lot of really fun ideas that could make Touched a lot more appealing to play in general, and actually make them on-par with other elementalists without making them entirely broken. Hit me up if you want some ideas.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 11, 2019, 05:39:37 AM
You know, I love a lot of these ideas, at their base. And I'd love code to enforce some of the things that we feel about magickers being scary and whatnot.

But really, a lot of you are suggesting that the onus is on code to dictate your roleplay. And that's just not the case.

Roleplay.

We know that we are supposed to be afraid of magickers. So be afraid of magickers. Do what's right, of your own accord. Being afraid of all magickers is no different than treating elves like shit, or thinking half-breeds are nasty because racism. It's acting out part of a role. Do your job and treat magickers the way the documents say you're supposed to.

Now all of that said, I absolutely want coded reinforcement of some of the fears we're supposed to have. That, or I want docs and the roles a magicker can legally have in clans changed to suggest a more integrated acceptance of them on some level. But until these things change, don't ignore the world you live in or the way your character has been brought up. Don't ignore your character's reality.

Roleplay.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Harmless on January 11, 2019, 09:57:40 AM
You know, I love a lot of these ideas, at their base. And I'd love code to enforce some of the things that we feel about magickers being scary and whatnot.

But really, a lot of you are suggesting that the onus is on code to dictate your roleplay. And that's just not the case.

Roleplay.

We know that we are supposed to be afraid of magickers. So be afraid of magickers. Do what's right, of your own accord. Being afraid of all magickers is no different than treating elves like shit, or thinking half-breeds are nasty because racism. It's acting out part of a role. Do your job and treat magickers the way the documents say you're supposed to.

Now all of that said, I absolutely want coded reinforcement of some of the fears we're supposed to have. That, or I want docs and the roles a magicker can legally have in clans changed to suggest a more integrated acceptance of them on some level. But until these things change, don't ignore the world you live in or the way your character has been brought up. Don't ignore your character's reality.

Roleplay.

Let's look at the docs that you're saying are getting ignored.

Quote
Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.


1.) Knows very little: I'd say that this is roleplayed just fine; to my knowledge, most players aren't spouting details about magick unless they are playing a magicker or one of the rare cases that work with gemmed or templars, all of which are not the "general public."

2.) Fears and hates: Note: there are two words used with the conjunction "and." Hate, is more common now than fear. However, one can roleplay a hatred of magickers which is predominantly expressed with the "killed upon discovery" part. You kill and destroy that which you don't understand...the exact amount of fear needed to be expressed is up to the roleplayer.

3.) Feared and distrusted: Again, two words with the conjunction "and." Distrust is something that also stems from fear or lack of understanding; I'm HOPING that people aren't bonding more and building trust more with magickers. In my experience, people would rarely if ever trust me, even though I was a codedly weaker magicker than I used to play, so I'd also say people are doing this.


--- In summary, there is no requirement that fear be the predominant expression of the same exact IC concepts, because in the docs that currently exist for magick, the concepts of hate and fear, distrust and fear, and destroying and avoiding are all linked to the same idea.

So, I really don't see why folks in this thread seem to think that yelling at the playerbase that they "aren't doing their job" is a solution.


again: if you brought back mainguild magickers, and added back the variety in spells that are used that we used to have, then you would introduce more uncertainty. This is a form of fear. It'd also bring back more coded power, yes, but overall I just predict that the fear half of the emotional reaction would be enhanced.

And if you don't bring back mainguild magickers, there are lots of other things one can do: we can come up with more incentives to spread fear and hate (A bounty on mages..such things existed in Tuluk before it closed). There are lots of ways to do it, but right now the culture around mages is stagnating..due to the step-by-step trimming away of content that has reduced the uncertainty and fear factor over time.


I like Lizzie's idea right above, also. It also helps to add that element of uncertainty, which is key to building fear.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Delirium on January 11, 2019, 10:06:03 AM
Moderated a post. Please do not discuss the specifics or existence of spells beyond that which is mentioned in the helpfiles.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 11, 2019, 10:07:00 AM
Pretty sure I tipped over the line there, sorry about that. But yeah I think the idea that was moderated has merit.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 11, 2019, 10:08:25 AM
Bring back the cheesy instakill spells and unbalanced buff spells. Bring back Drovians with the same req as psionicists. Actually punish specific abuses instead of fucking everyone for the actions of a few.

Bring back all the super buff magick shit that's been whittled away for years and years. I don't mean just spells.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 11, 2019, 01:29:57 PM
@Harmless: I don't think I was yelling, as you say. I think I was encouraging. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I am as guilty of struggling to roleplay fear and hate as anyone that I am encouraging to do so might be. I hate very few people in real life.

I have no OOC reason to hate every breed that crosses my path, but I try when it fits my character to do so because I'm supposed to. OOCly I'd love to have a magick friend, but ICly that's supposed to be an abhorrent thought. If I find a magick bauble that makes my character strong, I should flee and fear, not fit and flex. And I struggle sometimes to remember that.

So my exhortation to remember your reality concerning how dangerous magick is supposed to be when you decide to try to kill a magicker, or how likely you are to be cursed if you buddy up to a magicker, shouldn't be construed as yelling. It should be considered encouragement to always remember the difference between you and your character - to remember the difference between your reality and their's.

If you feel as though it's yelling, I guess I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 11, 2019, 02:25:36 PM
I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Harmless is saying we've already heard the suggestion RP better. It's unhelpful. It must sound deafening when it's the go to for everyone who sees something they don't immediately agree with or a problem they don't immediately know how to fix.

At a glance it's pretty mastubatory. Saying learn to RP better implies you aren't part of the issue and are a better RPer. I see your admission of guilt however and am not leveling that claim at you, 7dead.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 11, 2019, 03:11:31 PM
I guess that's fair.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 11, 2019, 04:27:39 PM
It's not just masturbatory at a glance. It's 90% masturbatory. Maybe it will help for those people it didnt occur to, but most of the problem is power people in game having in depth OOC and IC knowledge ("fRoM mY bAcKgRoUnD") of how gimped magick is currently.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 12, 2019, 12:04:45 AM
To be honest, claiming it's 'masturbatory' at all is masturbatory, since you have no idea why that other person thinks they had to say what they have to say. For the statement to be masturbatory, there has to be intent to show off in some way. Since that's not the intent of my statement at all, it was in no way masturbatory, even if it could be read like that. And I think it's important not to read intent into a statement posted on a forum unless that intent is explicit, like, it says, "fuck you, you suck," or some such. We lack the ability to accurately present tone and expression in such an arena.

Still, because I added less than I wished to the topic, I'm sorry it felt like some sort of indictment of any percentage of the playerbase.

But that's enough of this. I really shouldn't even be defending myself. This is devolving into a topic removed from the original topic. Let's get back to discussing that, yeah?

Mek, are you suggesting that most of the problem is people making characters who ICly know how magick works, even when they are mundanes, because they know OOCly? I'm not sure I completely understood what you meant there.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 12, 2019, 12:16:39 AM
We lack the ability to accurately present tone and expression in such an arena.
I disagree on this point. Almost all my posts are meant to be somewhat condescending or bombastic and I think that's accurately communicated. The structure and diction of one's posts, as well as rhetorical questioning and how short or how long and winnowing a post is can all lend tone to it. The presence of profanity, etc. But that's neither here nor there.

My claim of it being masturbatory is that the advice to "roleplay better" implies that the person delivering such advice roleplays properly and thinks that if everyone were just a little more like them, then the game would be better in whatever direction their advice of roleplaying better would take it. I disagree. Expecting people to act like you do has in almost all avenues of my life lead me to disappointment. You need to lead people into doing what you want either by example, by force, or by implication The second of these is extremely effective only in singular occasional cases, the first of them is unreliable without an absolutely overwhelming amount of charisma and ability to project oneself into situations without interruption. The third, which is to say, by implication, is much better

If magick IS ACTUALLY something you should fear and hate, people will fear and hate magickers, whether or not they have greasy shadowboard gained code knowledge of how magick works. And I think the current cadre of staff can be trusted enough to not go screaming to the shadowboards with a reddened ass if any of them decide to step down. At least, I hope so. Presuming that anyone who would step down would be privy to any changes made to magick.

Quote
Mek, are you suggesting that most of the problem is people making characters who ICly know how magick works, even when they are mundanes, because they know OOCly? I'm not sure I completely understood what you meant there.
Many people think that because they are playing a leader that they don't need to play to the docs, or people who don't play to the docs become leaders. Leaders are usually exceptional, usually through ability or simply because whoever promoted them decided they wanted to give this person a shot or they wanted to meet a certain level of diversity so nobody would cry favoritism. In Arm's case, in MY opinion, anyway. The extreme phobia of appearing to project favoritism is another problem I want to address but that's beside the current point.

Basically, leaders are powergamers or excellent social manipulators who have powergamers under their thumb. Many times, they are both. But the problem is, either type has the same level of notoriety and public facing influence. So whenever Magicky McBackground Badass decides they wanna drink from the pool of water the Vivaduan just decided to squirt out instead of recoiling in fear from it, their five little lemming and their five little friends have that much more reason to not be encouraged to roleplay fear of magick. What's more, that Vivaduan just created water, so you just narrowed him down to two subguilds, of which knowledge has percolated out to many people, so they have no reason to roleplay actual fear of him besides social nicety. And you can only expect politeness to be so effective. The threat of the hammer is often as effective if not more than the hammer. Magickers need to be able to drop the anvil, not just the hammer.

Bring back all the magick shit that's been taken out. Make it less accessible if you like, but bring it back. OUTSIDE OF staff animation. Nobody wants to watch an animated NPC jerk themselves off with wicked cool magick shit. Or at least, I don't.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 12, 2019, 12:43:52 AM
I'm going to refrain from commenting any more about the other stuff.

To your second train of thought, that's probably a real issue, in at least some cases. Having not been back long enough to evaluate that many leaders, I'm not certain it is a wide-ranging issue, but I'll take your word on it. I know it has been in the past, at the very least. I was, of course, trying to pinpoint this very issue when I mentioned your reality versus your character's reality.

I certainly also agree concerning giving magickers the anvil. While I personally love the ideas behind splitting up the magick guilds into these new facets, I wasn't a fan of doing away with the coded power that the old guilds possessed. I loved that they had been turned into sub-guilds versus main guilds, because I thought that was the sort of thing that would allow them to be real people beyond their magick.

I think we can agree on magick needing to be terrifying for a magicker's foe again for coded reasons.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: HavokBlue on January 12, 2019, 12:58:47 AM
Random magic thoughts:

I think we largely agree that the disconnect occurs when the IC reality of magic is that it is powerful and scary and the coded reality of magic is that it is sometimes powerful and always predictable. I've seen staff animations in the past few years of magic scenarios (ie. during the Gith War) that were terrifying and intense, that really drove home why people fear magick.

I've been thinking of how to make the coded power match the virtual power of magick and while it's probably not feasible from a manpower/code work perspective...

My ideal magick system would see all mage classes redone to have spells significantly more powerful than they are now. Not every spell needs to be godly, but the general toolkit of mages should instill not just IC fear but OOC fear as well. To that end, to balance and compliment the boost in power, spells would have a miscast chance. As you skill up, the miscast chance decreases relative to your overall power. More powerful levels of each spell are still more difficult to cast successfully. Miscasts have a range of effects, from the spell simply fizzling out, to hitting the wrong target, to a completely unintended effect. Did you cast 'mon un summon familiar'? Bad news, newbie gemmer. You've made a terrible miscalculation and summoned a horror from the void. Trying to fuck up that sewer horror with a fireball? You could cast at mon and incinerate it, knowing that there's a chance you miscast and explode for 80 damage to everyone in the room.

Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 12, 2019, 04:02:49 AM
So the argument is that magickers are not powerful enough or unpredictable enough to be scary?
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: HavokBlue on January 12, 2019, 04:27:23 AM
That's my read of it, I think?

Like yeah, code is not a solution to bad roleplay, but Armageddon is a MUD, not a MUSH. Mechanics exist to enhance roleplay and this is a situation where a change to mechanics can reinforce the setting's treatment of magick both ICly and OOCly.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 12, 2019, 06:09:51 AM
I don't think it would hurt at all to make magickers more powerful and erratic. However, the unpredictable nature of the magick shouldn't be so stifling that it's just a general pain in the ass to play as or be around. There's a balance that need to be maintained.

I personally would prefer ideas that somehow stayed within this trinity of fun, powerful, and erratic. But I'm coming up mostly blank on good ideas at the moment.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: ABoredLion on January 12, 2019, 08:09:19 AM
I think people have clearly worked their way back around to the idea that I was trying to suggest. The only part that disappoints me in this thread is that I can't even remember if I'm the one that was moderated. That's how many times I considered writing up a response and just shook my head and stepped back, hah!

That said, every single one of them needs to be made more powerful. The ones who might not (a particular cool whiran) could still be given a lot of utilities that would make their lives pretty cool and better again. I'm not lopsided in hoping for this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2019, 09:55:41 AM
-snip-

Edit that part about the sub guild. I'm not getting another thread locked on a whim.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 12, 2019, 10:03:20 AM
I don't think "more powerful" but just as limited as they currently are, is a solution to anything. I think "more variety" without any "more" power would do the trick. If people could pick an element - and select from a menu of options within that element, we would have the mystery mage everyone wants. Yes, he's a vivaduan. But what KIND of vivaduan? Answer: there is no "kind" of vivaduan. They're all custom, so you won't ever truly know what he can do, until you see him do it. His player knows. His character might or might not know, depending on how he's chosen to play his character.

Perhaps even start the out-of-chargen spells out at a higher level than the current starting level (this stuff IS in the docs but I'll refrain from naming the levels). One step higher, 10 points higher, whatever. Have them come out of chargen with a working and somewhat efficient ability to a) use a few spells and b) practice a few spells. Maybe even make that next-level startup be a freebie option for 3-karma players. "Yes, we acknowledge that you know your way around the magick system, which is why you have 3 karma. And so, for all your magick characters, you MAY if you wish - start your character's first spells at power Y instead of power X. Do you wish to do so? Y yes N no C custom.>" and if they only want one or two of them to start out higher and want to roleplay the struggle for the lower (or just aren't interested in the lower) they may do that as well.


Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 12, 2019, 10:06:56 AM
I don't think we should throw caution to the wind, but I do think extreme conservative cautious temperance when it comes to giving players more coded power is stifling to the game. The game would be more exciting and dynamic if the same philosophy were applied to giving players power that is followed when it comes to taking it away.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Nao on January 12, 2019, 10:12:07 AM
I would like to point out that fear of magick is not always obvious and can be pretty subtle.

I have heard IG that someone was terrified of a certain  magicker, but did not date show it out if fear that he would be killed if he showed any negative reaction. Which... seemed totally valid in that situation. My own character did show fear, initially  ran, and had enough discomfort for several magicker PCs to pick up on that discomfort. Apparently, it was not obvious enough for staff to pick it up, though, and they did ask some questions.

I have also had someone admit they were terrified of my magicker, and did not pick up on any of that myself.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on January 12, 2019, 12:05:21 PM
I once had a PC that was both terrified and infatuated with a magicker. They had wild sex all the time. I'm pretty sure there were at least a handful of folks that knew about it, but those people seemed (at least on the surface) to understand. Since this is a magicker spook thread, I'm curious what you all think about sex with gickers, and how that plays into the whole scare factor thing.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: TheWanderer on January 12, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
helps bend and erode documentation, and hopefully people black-sheeped you for it to offset that. though due to prior experiences in this game, it’s a dubious proposition at best.

but no worries, bruh. who doesn’t want slip and slide fun with a viv? horny nerds unite. let’s fight for our mudsex fantasies
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2019, 03:08:22 PM
I don't think we should throw caution to the wind, but I do think extreme conservative cautious temperance when it comes to giving players more coded power is stifling to the game. The game would be more exciting and dynamic if the same philosophy were applied to giving players power that is followed when it comes to taking it away.

Are you suggesting that the loss of fear against magick is an indirect result of the ever present glass ceiling effect?
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Harmless on January 12, 2019, 04:28:55 PM
There does seem to be a pattern of secret trysts with mages. As has been said before, this playerbase is horny. Some characters exude wit, charm, and artful descriptions of themselves or their actions, which equate to attractiveness and desirability for interaction, and those characters are often played by high karma players, and magick is one of the most commonly bought karma rewards. Players into the bonding roleplay story arc (which is a lot of our playerbase lately) will try to get their PC romantically involved with mages even if there is risk involved. Over time a proliferation of IC excuses are invented among different players..either in backgrounds or not, to allow their character to be "soft" on "that one" mage that their PC is sweet on...which I agree, does erode the fear factor over time.

In my opinion, the greatest balance of the above is the shame from higher levels of power on such feelings and actions. It might come from other commoners, but this is usually not that dangerous to the romance plot and it keeps going. Reluctance to intervene may be due to the knowledge that witches tend to be connected. (this is true for publicly known witches, usually). Any witch that isn't well connected is generally in hiding anyway.

Templars, however, can, and SHOULD, be oppressing the gemmed...brutally if needed. I've never had a gemmed that had a romance with an ungemmed, but if I did (though I doubt I'd want to get into this kind of plot for the foreseeable future), I would do it hoping for a "tragic" outcome that reinforces the theme.

In other words, turn trends of players roleplaying "errantly" according to the docs into opportunities (for murder, corruption, betrayal), and have the players "be the change" by responding in an IC way that helps to establish the culture.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: TheWanderer on January 12, 2019, 05:15:48 PM
Yep. It's just a matter of having players make life hell for players who do taboo shit. But if it's not a unified effort, it'll fall flat.

Also, just food for thought, if you're a noble/templar, maybe elevate yourself and don't fuck or engage with everything that has half a pulse. As mentioned by Harmless, you can set the examples for that sort of behavior.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 12, 2019, 05:49:27 PM
Storytime:

I played a whiran in Tuluk who got killed by a templar. Understandable, my bad for getting caught.
I then played an ungemmed mage outside of Tuluk, who went to Tuluk to visit, and got killed by the same templar. Woops.
I then played a mundane, who had MET a whiran, and I ended up getting killed by the SAME templar. Just for knowing a whiran.
I THEN played a mundane, who avoided going to Tuluk because *I* the player was tired of having my characters killed by that templar. My character was assassinated - under orders of that templar, who suspected my character of harboring a whiran fugitive (the same one my previous character got killed for knowing).

A little bitter, sure. Mostly bitter because I never learned how to "interact with mages in any way, shape, or form, without THAT templar killing my character or arranging their assassination." Not because my characters got killed.

I wish there was more of this in Allanak. Not to that extreme, certainly. But we're at the opposite extreme where someone can actually come to the GDB and even ask peoples' opinions about a mundane PC knowingly mudsexing a mage, in Allanak. The fact that someone would even ask that on the GDB shows how far to the other extreme we've gone. I feel we need to start pulling the other way.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: ABoredLion on January 12, 2019, 05:52:30 PM
Man, this thread just went off the rails hard in a couple of posts. To put it lightly, having sex with someone does not make them less dangerous. It's not the standard by which you should measure someone's danger or lack thereof, because let me tell you, sex has been used as a manipulating force to keeping dangerous people on your side for who knows how long.

As to the templars, that seems more like a backhanded insult toward some templar or series of them, when the game world doesn't really reflect much for it being wrong for them to get their jollies. There's a fine line and all, but let's not derail the point of the thread.

Trysts between gemmed and nongemmed should always be a source of what will ultimately be thought to be a dangerous and fruitless endeavor where the gemmed is either suicidal or just trying to eke out one little bit of happiness before they inevitably get caught and killed for it. The ungemmed is probably taking a huge risk, and in general, I think you'll find these relationships are going to end tragically (usually with the death of one of them). That's my opinion. On the point of this thread? This does not make magickers more or less feared.

As to other people shacking up with magickers, I think it depends heavily on a variety of things. In general it is taboo. There are some areas where it is more taboo, and some areas where it is going to impact you more to be doing something taboo. Further, you've got to bear in mind that any number of things can be driving them to doing whatever, and as I mentioned far above, sex does not make someone more or less scary. I've played mundanes and magickers both who scared the living hell out of their partners. Having a mundane partner is not responsible for magickers not being scary.

The truth of it is that danger as it is most represented from 'magicker' to 'other', is in their ability to harm(through information, long distance attacks, or physically) them in some way without suffering themselves for it, or especially, risking themselves for it overly much. For dealing with a magicker, if they have to be right in your face to do anything to you, and you're never worried about 'right in your face' engagements because you and your 5 friends spar every morning in your clan hall, then you're not worried, just as an example.

That's the unfortunate nature of a MUD relying on code for certain things. I feel like I'm going over already gone over points though. I just wanted to bring this to heel before this went over the top again.

@Lizzie, none of that was on the point of the thread. No going off the rails here! :D
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 12, 2019, 07:24:04 PM
The point is that lack of fear and mystery, or reinforcement of the lack of coded support of the fear and mystery, is a problem.

You shouldn't be having sex with mages because - their very existence is a mistake of nature. It'd be like wanting to have sex with a plugged in lamp with a broken lightbulb on top. Or wanting to have sex underwater, with no snorkel mask or oxygen tank. Or wanting to have sex in a lit firepit. Or wanting to have sex with a rock, that will turn your insides to stone if it gets too excited.

There should be - I emphasis: there SHOULD be - fear of the potential for any of these things happening. Or worse, or more depraved, or more scary, or more nauseating and sickening.

ICly - your character should think that these things might actually be possible. Your mage character should also be thinking these things might some day actually happen. That they're not coded actualities shouldn't matter.

Sadly, people tend to dismiss these IC possibilities, precisely because there's no coded consequences. And because they dismiss them, you have people making excuses to play the exception to the rule so frequently that the rule ceases to exist.

And that is a very good example (though certainly not the only example) of why there's no magickal spook factor.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: X-D on January 12, 2019, 07:28:10 PM
Heh...you wanna make all mages scary very easily?

Give them a choice of one of the extra reaches in char creation.

 ;)
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: boog on January 12, 2019, 07:54:31 PM
I'm sorry. What the heck? You guys fuck magickers? You don't hate them all? I am completely perplexed that anyone would ever accept a magicker who isn't a magicker themselves. And hell, they aren't even supposed to like all the others.

Nobles and templars fucking magickers? That is abhorrent. They have access to the best, cleanest companions in pleasure slaves, or they can pick better than average looking commoners on the streets. I'm completely... surprised. Wow.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: TheWanderer on January 12, 2019, 08:03:51 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif)

People always trying really hard to justify their sexy times.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: ABoredLion on January 12, 2019, 11:26:22 PM
If a templar is banging a magicker, that's bad. End of the story. That's life ending if it gets out. That's one of those things that they'd never do as far as I can tell, knowingly. As to whether templars ever have sex with commoners, that's something thrown around in Allanak often enough. It isn't Tuluk. And last I checked, no templars are given personal pleasure slaves at generation.

But again, we're way off subject. I keep trying to point toward a direction that gets cohesive possibilities and ideas that maybe staff can see. Everyone wants to draw back to this whole 'be better roleplayers' thing and I guess I gotta give up. Hopefully someone upstairs got something from this, heh.

I think added utility and increased deadliness is the way to go, from a coded perspective.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: boog on January 12, 2019, 11:36:45 PM
I don't think that giving subguild magickers more things is going to make people perceive them as more deadly. These issues have always been issues. People choose to interpret the documentation with their own spin.

If people aren't afraid of magickers because they OOCly know they are neutered power wise, well, they should be reported to staff because that isn't adhering correctly.

I do think some subguilds need to be boosted, but if we are going to make magickers super powerful, we need to cap them. Everyone rolling in with a Krathi or Whiran who could snuff you in a couple of hits would be silly.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Cind on January 13, 2019, 03:54:07 AM
The IC fear and hatred of magickers should be so great that a normal commoner under most circumstances is not going to continuously expose their most delicate parts to them in a sexual fashion once a day every day for the rest of their lives, where the fear of finding out means death, including the death of the witch you obviously have such a major crush on you couldn't help going up to them and asking, "Your place or mine?"

I'm just saying, if people did this a little less, maybe it would feel more believable, and less like we are all living in a democratic, free-loving society of equals merely playing warrior and merchant in a DnD-style game.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 13, 2019, 11:22:20 AM
Perhaps a simple change in the documentarion regarding magick users manifesting could be beneficial? Such as something saying that nearly all magick users are aware of their abilities after puberty. This way you would have far less surprise magick users just joining the byn (or the Arm or the garrison) for the sweet experience ahead of time. And a lot fewer magickers in general. I think the relative return to rarity would make it much easier to RP fear, loathing, and disgust accurately.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 13, 2019, 11:36:19 AM
The IC fear and hatred of magickers should be so great that a normal commoner under most circumstances is not going to continuously expose their most delicate parts to them in a sexual fashion once a day every day for the rest of their lives, where the fear of finding out means death, including the death of the witch you obviously have such a major crush on you couldn't help going up to them and asking, "Your place or mine?"

I'm just saying, if people did this a little less, maybe it would feel more believable, and less like we are all living in a democratic, free-loving society of equals merely playing warrior and merchant in a DnD-style game.

"fear of finding out" is missing the point entirely.

The point is "fear of those intimate parts falling off, turning to stone, burning you to a cinder from the inside out, dehydrating you until you're just powder, being made permanently frigid/unable to get it up, permanent infertility, or your kids guaranteed to be mutants." THESE are things that should be your character's primary concerns when presented with the opportunity to have sex with a mage. The result of those concerns, for anyone sane, would be "hell no."
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: mansa on January 13, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
Perhaps a simple change in the documentarion regarding magick users manifesting could be beneficial? Such as something saying that nearly all magick users are aware of their abilities after puberty. This way you would have far less surprise magick users just joining the byn (or the Arm or the garrison) for the sweet experience ahead of time. And a lot fewer magickers in general. I think the relative return to rarity would make it much easier to RP fear, loathing, and disgust accurately.

There was a great magick guide on the old website.
Stuff like


The new one has some good things too:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Magick%20Roleplay

...Actually, it's pretty much the same from the old to the new, with the exception of the sample backgrounds link.


Maybe we all should re-read the documentation and see if it's supposed to align with how we're thinking about Magickers.
If something is documented one way, but doesn't actually play out in game - we should point out the inconsistencies and give solid examples of how to change.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 13, 2019, 02:00:28 PM
Well the documentation says magick is a world-shaking force of power, and it doesn't really play out that way in game with most of the magick available to players.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 13, 2019, 04:13:12 PM
The IC fear and hatred of magickers should be so great that a normal commoner under most circumstances is not going to continuously expose their most delicate parts to them in a sexual fashion once a day every day for the rest of their lives, where the fear of finding out means death, including the death of the witch you obviously have such a major crush on you couldn't help going up to them and asking, "Your place or mine?"

I'm just saying, if people did this a little less, maybe it would feel more believable, and less like we are all living in a democratic, free-loving society of equals merely playing warrior and merchant in a DnD-style game.

"fear of finding out" is missing the point entirely.

The point is "fear of those intimate parts falling off, turning to stone, burning you to a cinder from the inside out, dehydrating you until you're just powder, being made permanently frigid/unable to get it up, permanent infertility, or your kids guaranteed to be mutants." THESE are things that should be your character's primary concerns when presented with the opportunity to have sex with a mage. The result of those concerns, for anyone sane, would be "hell no."

You're missing my point. I don't care about mage fucking. I think it's stupid and should be super frowned upon, but I think mudsex is appalling as a rule anyway.

No, my point is that if we return the relative rarity to most mages perhaps it'll be easier to rp at them properly. As in, when you don't have suspicions that the three other Runners in your squad are witches because they would already have been outed and not allowed in the byn by this point.

Well the documentation says magick is a world-shaking force of power, and it doesn't really play out that way in game with most of the magick available to players.

It's the glass ceiling. That power definitely exists, in the sorcerer kings and their lackeys. Remember how powerful a Red Robe is supposed to be? It's just that no character will ever likely be able to harness it and if they saw that kind of power it's likely they'd be on the business end of it (to be read instakilled).
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 13, 2019, 04:35:08 PM

You're missing my point. I don't care about mage fucking. I think it's stupid and should be super frowned upon, but I think mudsex is appalling as a rule anyway.


Someone upthread posted an inquiry about opinions on this. The fact that they posted - is what got me started. The fact that people would actually ask about it - is a concern. It shouldn't be a thing, at all. But apparently it is. And I think that's a problem, that speaks very clearly to the overall issue of "lack of mage spookitude."
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 13, 2019, 06:11:53 PM

You're missing my point. I don't care about mage fucking. I think it's stupid and should be super frowned upon, but I think mudsex is appalling as a rule anyway.


Someone upthread posted an inquiry about opinions on this. The fact that they posted - is what got me started. The fact that people would actually ask about it - is a concern. It shouldn't be a thing, at all. But apparently it is. And I think that's a problem, that speaks very clearly to the overall issue of "lack of mage spookitude."

I can agree with that, I suppose.

I read your post as a critique of my own.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: AdamBlue on January 13, 2019, 07:09:33 PM
A good love story always ends in tragedy.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 13, 2019, 07:28:04 PM
Everything does.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Cind on January 14, 2019, 12:39:45 PM
One time a mundane character of mine and an acquaintance were talking together at a table in the Gaj by themselves about how mages were disgusting, disturbing, etc. and it ended up so that we were forced by a mage who had overhead us to apologize to them for saying those things, having our hands forced by a templar. I'll tell you one thing--- that mage was always washed and clean.

I was actually trying to say how people who do these things and then attempt to be discovered, I give them brownie points. But, for the sake of the gameworld, especially since it is a small gameworld, it may not be the best idea to play the exception -every single time,-, or most of the time, or even half of the time.

Amos and Talia were best friends and bedtime buddies, and then Talia manifests and gets gemmed, and they don't sleep together anymore but Amos hangs around outside her temple pretending to be a street sweeper. I get it. You knew them before the gem, and you're acting appropriately to the gameworld, because I consider obsession appropriate.

You've had five characters, all mundane---- and each of them had secretly slept with a gemmer, in a game with strict rp enforcement where secrets never stay secret for long. Wait...
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: CodeMaster on January 14, 2019, 03:55:25 PM
One time a mundane character of mine and an acquaintance were talking together at a table in the Gaj by themselves about how mages were disgusting, disturbing, etc. and it ended up so that we were forced by a mage who had overhead us to apologize to them for saying those things, having our hands forced by a templar. I'll tell you one thing--- that mage was always washed and clean.

lol... I think one of the hardest parts of playing a magick character is to concede to losing these exchanges.  I mean, you never know what factors were at play.  But the onus is on the magickers to let the mundanes rule the mundane parts of the game and to make themselves seem "rare".  Just like a mul could, but shouldn't, walk into the Gaj, order a drink, and slaughter every NPC soldier on her way back to the labyrinth.

I was actually trying to say how people who do these things and then attempt to be discovered, I give them brownie points. But, for the sake of the gameworld, especially since it is a small gameworld, it may not be the best idea to play the exception -every single time,-, or most of the time, or even half of the time.

I feel like there is a list of conducts that experienced players should take note of.  I'll rattle off a few from the top of my head (maybe I am wrong about some of these?).  All else being equal in some place like Allanak:
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: X-D on January 14, 2019, 05:06:52 PM
You were doing alright till the last one.

The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It would be easier for an elf to explain being a mage then riding a mount. At least to other elves...which is all that matters anyway....nobody cares about the lesser races.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 14, 2019, 05:09:51 PM
It would be easier for an elf coming to terms with losing those pointed ears than riding a mount. That's a real quick way to get force stored. Quicker than dwarven foci breaking, IMO.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Jihelu on January 14, 2019, 05:13:09 PM
I'll state what I did on my last elf character (Which is like, 2 characters ago), that when I typed 'mount' it flat out wouldn't let me on a mount.

But I digress.

In Dark Sun Elves /could/ ride, they just didn't unless they were dying. Even then if one of their clanmates were there, they'd prob die.

In Arm, this is different. Elves won't ride.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: X-D on January 14, 2019, 05:14:17 PM
And I know this is off topic...but many years ago, I had PC in the Byn and I think Sujaal was the sarge. We had an elf with us and wagon escort, we needed to leave...do not remember why, but likely some kind of danger or something, The elf totally refused to get on the wagon, would prefer be executed for desertion. He was knocked out, tied up, stuffed in a bag and tossed on the wagon...he never forgave any of us.

Good scene though.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Jihelu on January 14, 2019, 05:40:10 PM
And I know this is off topic...but many years ago, I had PC in the Byn and I think Sujaal was the sarge. We had an elf with us and wagon escort, we needed to leave...do not remember why, but likely some kind of danger or something, The elf totally refused to get on the wagon, would prefer be executed for desertion. He was knocked out, tied up, stuffed in a bag and tossed on the wagon...he never forgave any of us.

Good scene though.
Kudos that elf, he's a true knife ear.


I can't say for sure and only staff knows, and if at that probably vaguely unless they stalk the same player (This could probably be easy to spot though as a staffer if you just regularly check up on players. You check on X-D, see him kanking a mage. He dies. Three characters later you see him fucking another one.) but I think consistent 'setting breaking' is kinda bad. Every now and then? Yeah, sure.

I always try to have a quirk to my characters that goes against the grain /somehow/. I try to have multiple that go against the player grain
(Not necessarily the setting but, if every player in the world is being nice to 'x' people for some reason, I'll make a character that hates them. Even if setting wise it is neutral on whether or not 'x' is acceptable. Kinda like dwarves.)

So are there tons of players fucking mages? Only staff can say for sure or people who just watch these players IG and OOC know who they are. My opinion? Probably.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: CodeMaster on January 14, 2019, 09:43:31 PM
I have to admit I was kind of trawling with that one. :)
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 17, 2019, 02:33:39 PM
Do you think a spell that has canned "power" emotes would help? I think having something similar for each magicker type would allow them a tool to give mundanes something to find unnerving without necessarily changing the power rankings.

The only issue I foresee is that mundanes will take off or attack when they see a magicker "begins to chant a spell" and their element reacting because they aren't sure what it'll be. This could be negated by  making it cast nearly instantly as opposed to the others. The rest time shouldn't be messed with though so you can't machinegun emote spells, not that I know why you would.

Viv: mists, droplets of blood, etc.
Whirans: buffeting winds, dust devils, floating for a short second, etc.
Krathis: fire, sparkles, embers, etc.
Rukkians: tremors, stone molding at their feet, rocks nearby trembling, the sounds of earth churning, etc.
Nilaz: weird stuff.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Jihelu on January 17, 2019, 03:02:44 PM
Literally just...elementals do this with cantrips though? If a player decides "I'M NOT GOING TO REACT TO THIS MAGE BECAUSE HE ONLY EMOTED AND NOT SPELL" thats basically metagaming/powergaming and should be reported. Just because a mage can cast 'mon un whira cantrip' and hover for a few seconds doesn't mean he can't just fucking, emote the same thing.

I /WOULD/ like to see a default attack ability that isn't technically casting spells. Such as: Being able to manipulate already existing elements to do damage. Rocks shift and cause you to fall and hurt you, lava in the room smacks you, vines attack, etc.

Make it easier/harder in certain rooms, make it border line impossible for vivadu outside of vegetation. Hell, maybe make it hard to tell who's doing it without a scan roll.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Hauwke on January 17, 2019, 04:30:50 PM
Literally just...elementals do this with cantrips though? If a player decides "I'M NOT GOING TO REACT TO THIS MAGE BECAUSE HE ONLY EMOTED AND NOT SPELL" thats basically metagaming/powergaming and should be reported. Just because a mage can cast 'mon un whira cantrip' and hover for a few seconds doesn't mean he can't just fucking, emote the same thing.

I /WOULD/ like to see a default attack ability that isn't technically casting spells. Such as: Being able to manipulate already existing elements to do damage. Rocks shift and cause you to fall and hurt you, lava in the room smacks you, vines attack, etc.

Make it easier/harder in certain rooms, make it border line impossible for vivadu outside of vegetation. Hell, maybe make it hard to tell who's doing it without a scan roll.

This goes for anytime anyone emotes anything. Just because it was only emote, does not mean it did not happen and it can be ignored.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 17, 2019, 05:11:12 PM
I think you misunderstand. I'm trying to find an appropriate boundary to power emote. I think we could all agree that a magicker has things that would be appropriate for them to emote, but it would be too over the top or not fair to other players. Like a whiran emoting he summons a wind that's powerful enough to knock you to your feet or something. Canned emotes are written by staff and shouldn't butt up against what's not okay. Honestly, I think it'd be a fine tool to influence dynamic play. It's a show of power without coded consequences necessarily.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Jihelu on January 17, 2019, 08:04:37 PM
One: There are spells that kinda do this already in place, kinda. Find out ic? Maybe you know what I'm talking about.

Two: There exists documentation on what is and what is not okay for cantrips, which basically winds up being 'if it would do something you codedly can't do without -x- skill'.

Lighting a torch? Cool. Starting a fire to a tent? Actually, plausible as anyone with a torch can. Doing damage to someone? No.

I do wish it was a bit fleshed out. And I imagine part of being a karma having magic user is staff trusts you to know what is and what isn't okay in a cantrip emote.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 17, 2019, 08:08:27 PM
One: There are spells that kinda do this already in place, kinda. Find out ic? Maybe you know what I'm talking about.

Two: There exists documentation on what is and what is not okay for cantrips, which basically winds up being 'if it would do something you codedly can't do without -x- skill'.

Lighting a torch? Cool. Starting a fire to a tent? Actually, plausible as anyone with a torch can. Doing damage to someone? No.

I do wish it was a bit fleshed out. And I imagine part of being a karma having magic user is staff trusts you to know what is and what isn't okay in a cantrip emote.

Yes. I know what you mean, but I am vying for an equivalent for each element type. And I agree with this, but I am also afraid to do too much because of how vague the boundary is. Maybe I'm the only one.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Armaddict on January 18, 2019, 01:10:58 AM
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Greve on January 18, 2019, 02:34:41 AM
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

I'm generally of the belief that if people aren't doing something, it's because it isn't compelling in some way, not because they haven't been told to do so on the forums. If magickers across the bord fail to be scary, it's due to a lack of reasons and opportunities to be scary. After all, people playing magickers are not uninformed newbies.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Armaddict on January 18, 2019, 06:45:45 AM
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

I'm generally of the belief that if people aren't doing something, it's because it isn't compelling in some way, not because they haven't been told to do so on the forums. If magickers across the bord fail to be scary, it's due to a lack of reasons and opportunities to be scary. After all, people playing magickers are not uninformed newbies.

I dunno, I think if it's more compelling to fuck them or get confused about whether you should be able to fuck them than it is to view them as scary, there aren't exactly a lot of them that make you antsy about whether or not it will truly hurt your character which leads to all sorts of more compelling RP reasons to not be afraid than be afraid.

It's not an attack, it's just a reminder; the more you foster the stories of overcoming prejudice or not being the evil mage, the less you foster the scariness that gets asked for.  It is also not to say that I wouldn't like to have other things to help.  But in the end, aggressive, mean, evil mages make whatever rendition of magick you do have...scarier.

So.  Make some aggressive magick stuff happen!
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 18, 2019, 07:50:03 AM
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

100% disagree. There are two things that make magick scary:
1. The ability to do scary things, codedly.
2. The understanding and emphasis on (by the characters played by players who also understand and accept) that magickers can do scary things, codedly.

When either of these things fail to be true, magicks cease to be scary.


Also - "being scary" (in an active, assertive coded way) comes with risks. A rogue mage could take more risks, because he had more ability to be scary, as mages. Now, he is mostly just a mundane person, who is no more scary than any other mundane person, except he has a few toys in his toybox than others have. The risk vs. reward has been changed. So it's less likely that the rogue mage will take risks to reinforce his scariness to the rest of the playerbase. Risk being gemmed, or be hunted down, just because you can [do one of the few things in the touched by vivadu helpfile]? Risk being gemmed, or hunted down, just because you can [do a couple or three things from the touched by krath subguild]? If they won't take the risk, then no one will get to observe them being scary.

Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Greve on January 18, 2019, 09:06:45 AM
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

I'm generally of the belief that if people aren't doing something, it's because it isn't compelling in some way, not because they haven't been told to do so on the forums. If magickers across the bord fail to be scary, it's due to a lack of reasons and opportunities to be scary. After all, people playing magickers are not uninformed newbies.

I dunno, I think if it's more compelling to fuck them or get confused about whether you should be able to fuck them than it is to view them as scary, there aren't exactly a lot of them that make you antsy about whether or not it will truly hurt your character which leads to all sorts of more compelling RP reasons to not be afraid than be afraid.

It's not an attack, it's just a reminder; the more you foster the stories of overcoming prejudice or not being the evil mage, the less you foster the scariness that gets asked for.  It is also not to say that I wouldn't like to have other things to help.  But in the end, aggressive, mean, evil mages make whatever rendition of magick you do have...scarier.

So.  Make some aggressive magick stuff happen!

The point I meant to make was that "aggressive magick stuff" is borderline impossible to do at this point. For the most part, magick characters are just mundane classes with a few spells, most of which don't assist in doing anything aggressive. There are certainly combinations of class and magick subclass that are powerful, but not so powerful that you can get away with making yourself the global enemy of the month. Point in case: there haven't really been any since the big change to elementalists and sorcerers. It's simply absent.

You can sit there all day and tell people to be aggressive, but without the abilities to really do so, people won't. At least not in any way that differs significantly from what mundanes can do. Maxed backstab is inherently scary, and slightly moreso if you can buff your strength, but it's not really something that fits the bill of "scary magick." Same goes for most of the other things that magick can do for you. Elementalists are mundanes with one token magick gimmick, few of which are legitimately dangerous.

I can't name a notorious magicker since the magick system changed. Not one. I've known of magickers but they weren't notorious. Gemmed aside, each and every one had magick as a secret thing that never really saw the light of day. None lived by it. I've even known one or two who were widely feared and were magickers but almost nobody knew it, they were feared for other reasons and the magick played no part whatsoever. Gone are the days where magick itself meant something. Players, and their characters, no longer experience reasons to fear magick.

The mage archetype of the past worked because the classes got enough spells to live by them. We can't go into detail here, but I'm sure most of us know why it was prudent to be scared of any given classification of elementalist. Now we know that that's no longer the case. Any given type of elementalist now consists of like four spells, of which perhaps one is even usable in an aggressive manner, and rarely counts for more in practice than a capped combat skill. If we're being honest, isn't maxed sap scarier than whatever most elementalists can do? Are you not more afraid of a dwarf with a club?

And for that reason, people drifted away from the fear of magick. It's not a big mystery why it happened. I think the elementalist and sorcerer subguilds were a great addition to the game, if they had been merely an addition. They make a poor replacement, though. There's a gaping void where the old mages used to be. I wouldn't spend any time wondering why magick isn't met with fear anymore, because it's so easy to see why. It's just an aspect of the game that has been missing since these changes, and no amount of forum posts will get players to react to something that's no longer a reality that they experience.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Armaddict on January 18, 2019, 10:40:10 AM
Quote
It is also not to say that I wouldn't like to have other things to help.  But in the end, aggressive, mean, evil mages make whatever rendition of magick you do have...scarier.

The rendition of magick you have now, people want scarier.  So play scarier things.

To state it more clearly, I very highly seriously truly doubt that another thread telling staff they made a mistake on mages is going to make them agree with that, and probably less likely to have them reverse it, because it's just not something staff does anymore.

This is the magick you got, you aren't likely to see changes.  If you do, hurray for the dozens of threads it took.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Silteyes on January 18, 2019, 11:52:22 AM
I can't name a notorious magicker since the magick system changed. Not one. I've known of magickers but they weren't notorious. Gemmed aside, each and every one had magick as a secret thing that never really saw the light of day. None lived by it.

*Ahem*

The lack of notoriety is probably due to characters in positions of power actively squashing rumors of magick. Mage characters can do their part, but they are dependent on other characters spreading the stories of them doing their part.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: lostinspace on January 18, 2019, 01:02:09 PM
100% disagree. There are two things that make magick scary:
1. The ability to do scary things, codedly.
2. The understanding and emphasis on (by the characters played by players who also understand and accept) that magickers can do scary things, codedly.


Also - "being scary" (in an active, assertive coded way) comes with risks. A rogue mage could take more risks, because he had more ability to be scary, as mages. Now, he is mostly just a mundane person, who is no more scary than any other mundane person, except he has a few toys in his toybox than others have. The risk vs. reward has been changed. So it's less likely that the rogue mage will take risks to reinforce his scariness to the rest of the playerbase. Risk being gemmed, or be hunted down, just because you can [do one of the few things in the touched by vivadu helpfile]? Risk being gemmed, or hunted down, just because you can [do a couple or three things from the touched by krath subguild]? If they won't take the risk, then no one will get to observe them being scary.

With the karma changes these risks could very well mean a 75 day wait before you get to try again. I'm not going to roll into the Gaj on a 2 day krathi and emote having all the candles flare up, not when the risk is 73 days waiting before I have karma again.

I'm sure there's a sweet spot, but as of now, risk, and especially death, is more punishing than it has been since I joined in 2013.

When I joined mages were in part scary because of how fast they became dangerous. Now they take longer, especially if the start is 3 ig years in a sparring clan before they even start casting those spells.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 18, 2019, 01:11:46 PM
Perhaps we should get more roles for troublemakers? Like once a week or so there's a rolecall you can apply for, you don't choose anything about your PC and your given the task of "attempt to kill templar Sajix", or "empty the pockets of a byn sergeant". These could be magickers too. That way you wouldn't need to worry about your karma getting squished when the PC dies because they're essentially born to fail and it reinforces the aspects of the game we want.

Lastly it puts the onus on the player, rather than the staffer to animate a thing and make it evil.

As an aside, please don't become confused. This isn't a thread about yearning for the old elementalists back. We're fixing what we've got.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Nao on January 18, 2019, 01:38:42 PM
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I have played a class that got zero spells that were useable in combat, but this was probably the worst possible class, and staff has hinted that the last spells that character would have branched were applicable in combat. He just died before he could branch them.

Now, another character? Got a number of aggressive spells. I would take those over another weapon or combat skill and without thinking twice about it. I am also sure people would have been more scared if they realized what he could do, but simply had no clue.

My IG experience with other magickers is similar. Most (touched exempt, I haven’t seen enough of those) seem to get an edge that extends beyond any single skill, and some of them, with the right combination of skills, are just stupidly powerful.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 18, 2019, 02:58:22 PM
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I have played a class that got zero spells that were useable in combat, but this was probably the worst possible class, and staff has hinted that the last spells that character would have branched were applicable in combat. He just died before he could branch them.

Now, another character? Got a number of aggressive spells. I would take those over another weapon or combat skill and without thinking twice about it. I am also sure people would have been more scared if they realized what he could do, but simply had no clue.

My IG experience with other magickers is similar. Most (touched exempt, I haven’t seen enough of those) seem to get an edge that extends beyond any single skill, and some of them, with the right combination of skills, are just stupidly powerful.

They're only "stupidly powerful" if they are rogue ungemmed. Once they use their magicks on another PC, they are - by definition "outted" and immediately ineligible for being clanned by anyone other than Oash - who might or might not have use for them (if it's anything other than a human, forget about it.) and they would immediately be subject to being gemmed, OR hunted down if they reject the gem.

Which is fine, really. All those risks are reasonable risks. For a full-fledged mage. For a warrior with a few magick spells? Nope. Not worth the risk. The point of splitting the magick elements up, was to remove the whole idea of someone being a "mage first, character second." The second you realize the risk, you cease to be a person and immediately become a mage first, everything else second. You are not identified as "that guy who can swing a sword like nobody's business and oh yeah he also knows some magick." You are no longer "the half-elf who's been breaking into all the apartments in the merchant apartment building" and immediately become "that gick breed with a lockpick."

People are STILL identifying magickers as - magickers. Except the point of changing the system was to eliminate that. It didn't work. so now we have a split most people didn't want, with the same risk if they get caught, but less power *within that sphere of identifying as a mage* to justify the risk. There's zero risk to being a miscreant, or human, or tradesman, or master crafter. There is the SAME risk to being codedly capable of succeeding with the "cast" command, as there always was. And less to justify that risk.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 18, 2019, 03:50:17 PM
Give magickers a reach that, when earned somehow or at some cost, conceals the casting.

Allow magickers to pick a second subset of their element when they have fully branched the first. So a corruption Vivaduan can get healing magick. And so on.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: number13 on January 18, 2019, 04:31:57 PM
It's hard to read this thread some times and not want to spoil the shit out of in game events.

There are weirder things happening than many probably realize. Maybe the fact that people don't know about the weirdness is the problem? Personally, I think it's more fun to discover strange stuff happening IC, and be surprised.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 18, 2019, 04:49:01 PM
This thread is about a view along a long timeline. Longer than current events. Just because your current circumstances are cool and weird doesn't necessarily say much about the state of the problem.

Honestly, when staff is directly involved magick looks strange and terrifying. Lovecraftian even, at times. But that's equally problematic isn't it? If players lack all agency to reinforce game concepts then that's bad. I think we can all agree not to expect staff to constantly be trying to make a certain thing scary/abhorred/whatever. That's wasted time when we could do it on our own.

Hence why saying mundanes need to rp being afraid is moot. Even if that worked you've fixed half the problem, congratulations.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: X-D on January 18, 2019, 05:06:45 PM
Like I said, give the player a choice of an extra reach in chargen or directly after...Oh sure, I know that would mean 90% would choose a certain one, but who cares. (I wouldn't choose the most well known one) And increase mana regen or mana pool. A mage with limited and/or weak spells is far more scary if he can cast them ALOT. Combined with an unknown reach putting a bit of random into the class means uncertainty, which gives some spook.

Oh, he is just a healy mage, sure he can heal for 100 points but only do it 3 times before out of mana...we can take him.

After change.

Oh he is a healy mage that can heal for 100 points and can do it 8 times...we can take him...But wait, what if he has the mirror spell (made up)reach(though it should be put in) and can harm for 100 points 8 times..........

I mean, it would not be hard to make em spooky/scary with just a bit of tweeking, specially if that tweeking adds a bit of randomness.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 18, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
Like I said, give the player a choice of an extra reach in chargen or directly after...Oh sure, I know that would mean 90% would choose a certain one, but who cares. (I wouldn't choose the most well known one) And increase mana regen or mana pool. A mage with limited and/or weak spells is far more scary if he can cast them ALOT. Combined with an unknown reach putting a bit of random into the class means uncertainty, which gives some spook.

Oh, he is just a healy mage, sure he can heal for 100 points but only do it 3 times before out of mana...we can take him.

After change.

Oh he is a healy mage that can heal for 100 points and can do it 8 times...we can take him...But wait, what if he has the mirror spell (made up)reach(though it should be put in) and can harm for 100 points 8 times..........

I mean, it would not be hard to make em spooky/scary with just a bit of tweeking, specially if that tweeking adds a bit of randomness.

I kinda like this idea. I don't know anything about the reaches other than the ones that currently come with the magick subs. And one other from the "before times" back in the early 2000s. But the idea that a healing spell could either backfire, or cause a negative ricochet effect, seems kinda neato. And maybe a combat spell could also have an opposite backfire and positive ricochet effect.

Example:

cast mon heal amos
Amos looks healthier.
Malik, however, does not.

cast mon heal amost
Amos looks healthier.
You feel like shit.

cast mon fireball amos
Amos gets burnt
Malik, Amos's best pal, gets buffed for +2 strength.

cast mon fireball amos
Amos gets burnt
You get 2 hps restored.

These kinds of results would have two criteria: the quality of success of the cast, and a random dice roll. So - if the cast was flawless, there'd be a 5% chance of a side effect of the spell. If the cast was an almost-miss, it'd be a 30% chance of a side effect.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on January 18, 2019, 06:17:10 PM
What kind of fear are we actually talking about here? I mean, there are gemmed mages walking all around Allanak. I'm not going to relocate every time one walks into the room. Is just talking to a mage going to get me ousted from a group of friends? If I'm a badass warrior who hunts and murders mages, how much fear is appropriate? Enough to be cautious, but not so much that I won't stab one in the eye? Since a mage is wearing a gem, can't I believe that the Highlord has that cursed gick under his control, and won't let anything happen to me? I think that Templars, with their position of power along with their magick, are pretty scary. Hatred is a little easier to RP than fear, I think. Fear can be controlled, so it is not always obvious to an outside observer. I don't really know what my point was with this post. :)
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Hauwke on January 18, 2019, 06:32:10 PM
Give magickers a reach that, when earned somehow or at some cost, conceals the casting.

Allow magickers to pick a second subset of their element when they have fully branched the first. So a corruption Vivaduan can get healing magick. And so on.

I really like the conceal cast idea. Fixes a couple of issues I feel.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Brokkr on January 18, 2019, 06:41:55 PM
And lets steer away from this particular topic of reaches, before someone feels compelled to let something slip.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 18, 2019, 07:25:36 PM
What kind of fear are we actually talking about here? I mean, there are gemmed mages walking all around Allanak. I'm not going to relocate every time one walks into the room. Is just talking to a mage going to get me ousted from a group of friends? If I'm a badass warrior who hunts and murders mages, how much fear is appropriate? Enough to be cautious, but not so much that I won't stab one in the eye? Since a mage is wearing a gem, can't I believe that the Highlord has that cursed gick under his control, and won't let anything happen to me? I think that Templars, with their position of power along with their magick, are pretty scary. Hatred is a little easier to RP than fear, I think. Fear can be controlled, so it is not always obvious to an outside observer. I don't really know what my point was with this post. :)

They are cursed, theoretically, according to legend and lore. So it's not necessarily a fear of what a mage will do intentionally to you if you get too close. It's also a fear of the curse upon them. If they get angry, it might manifest, unnaturally but also unintentionally, as a curse upon you in turn. If you get them sexually excited, the curse within their loins might unintentionally, and unnaturally, cause your own organs to shrivel up, or your first born child to be born a horribly disfigured mutant. Or your best friend to die within the next month. Or whatever else.

These are the potential results of hanging out with someone who bears a curse within every fiber of their being. It's not something they can get rid of. That aspect of their curse isn't something they can control. Either it'll happen or it won't, but you won't know til it's too late.

That is the theoretic fear with regards to hanging out with, talking to, sexing up, doing business with, or being in physically close proximity to mages. The mage is controlled by the gem. The element itself - perhaps not. You don't know, your character doesn't know enough about magicks, or mages, or gems, or the templarate to judge.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on January 18, 2019, 07:59:54 PM
That's a good way to describe it Lizzie. And after rereading the magick docs, this section totally supports it.

Gemmed
(Magick)
Allanak's Elementalist Quarter is home to the gemmed: elementalists who bear a dull black gem fastened around their throats. These elementalists are said to be bound to the Highlord’s will through these devices and by extension the Templars of His city. This binding is proclaimed to render them "safe" or tolerable and by the letter of the Highlord’s law they are permitted to live and operate in the city like any other free citizen.

The gemmed are granted space in one of several "Temples" (an ancient word which possesses little modern meaning) which they are expected to restrict their practicing of their abilities to. Most of the Elementalist's Quarter's inhabitants live in these spaces, often finding accommodation in the wider city unwilling to take them as tenants.

While the gemmed are tolerated due to their association with the Templarate, they are widely hated, distrusted and feared. All sorts of misfortune and disaster are attributed to the Quarter's inhabitants and Allanak has seen many riots that have focused on the Temples. This widespread exclusion often simmers beneath the surface, kept in check by the city militia - though they are often more than willing to turn a blind eye.

Outside of public scrutiny though, some of Allanak's citizens are willing, when times are desperate enough, to seek out the gemmed for their services - real or imagined. Such liaisons, if discovered, are devastating for the transgressor’s social standing and likely their health - with the "taint" of magick being thought to stain them and follow them wherever they go.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Greve on January 19, 2019, 04:28:45 AM
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I was trying to avoid being too precise because that gets a post edited, so I didn't mean literally four. However, it's not so much more than four. In the context of magick being scary, that's about as many spells as most of the elementalist subclasses get. The rest is flavor and doesn't aid in doing any of what this thread is about. The point is that the arsenal of today's elementalist is too limited to let them be what mages used to be, and for many of the magick subclasses, the spells are largely overshadowed by your mundane skills. Yet, as Lizzie noted, you still are a 'gick and you still face the same disadvantages; but without the ability to really live by the spell instead of the sword, magick tends to become a sidenote. This has caused magick to become something people don't have much of a reason to care about.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: number13 on January 19, 2019, 10:01:33 AM
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I was trying to avoid being too precise because that gets a post edited, so I didn't mean literally four. However, it's not so much more than four.

Maybe this is a spoiler, but the subguilds end up with more than four spells. Significantly much, much more.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Lizzie on January 19, 2019, 10:46:26 AM
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I was trying to avoid being too precise because that gets a post edited, so I didn't mean literally four. However, it's not so much more than four.

Maybe this is a spoiler, but the subguilds end up with more than four spells. Significantly much, much more.

Seeing the forest through the trees:
Quote
you still are a 'gick and you still face the same disadvantages; but without the ability to really live by the spell instead of the sword, magick tends to become a sidenote. This has caused magick to become something people don't have much of a reason to care about.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: number13 on January 19, 2019, 11:32:48 AM

Quote
you still are a 'gick and you still face the same disadvantages; but without the ability to really live by the spell instead of the sword, magick tends to become a sidenote. This has caused magick to become something people don't have much of a reason to care about.

I disagree. Certain subguild + guild combinations are more powerful than most of the old main guild elementalists.

The big exception to this is the Whirans and the sorcs, because of two (maybe three) spells in particular. Those spells should have been severely nerfed a long time ago.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Akaramu on January 19, 2019, 03:09:45 PM
I disagree. Certain subguild + guild combinations are more powerful than most of the old main guild elementalists.

The big exception to this is the Whirans and the sorcs, because of two (maybe three) spells in particular. Those spells should have been severely nerfed a long time ago.

You're not listening. This isn't about power, we all know that certain minmaxed combinations can become extremely powerful if they spend enough time hunting or sparring. But it's no longer possible to ONLY pursue magic. You need to develop your mundane skillset or else you're severely gimped. This isn't optional. It's not a choice. The mundane skillset is now forced down a mage's throat.

When I was playing a merchant / Whiran, it felt like I was playing a mundane merchant with all the disadvantages of the gem. Next time I'll just pick a 100% mundane role, it's almost the same thing with less disadvantages and far more social and RPT options.

And before anyone goes 'why would you play a merchant magicker and not a warrior / ranger / assassin' - because I roleplay instead of minmaxing? Because I had hope that there would be options not open to mundane merchants as compensation, such as magickal mastercrafts? Nope, not really. Also, I don't like Armageddon MUD's combat system and would prefer never having to deal with it ever outside of sparring in the Byn, which is kinda fun sometimes.

But now if I wanted to be a powerful mage I'd have to deal with the mundane combat system...  :(
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: AdamBlue on January 20, 2019, 03:07:42 AM
Basic attack cantrips would be kewl.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: MeTekillot on January 20, 2019, 03:17:39 AM
Basic effect cantrips, in any case. I concur.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Cind on January 20, 2019, 06:24:28 AM
I know some people are saying "Try to remember how to roleplay appropriately to magick" but that didn't seem to work in the case of assuming city elves have tribes, some of which can wreck you. If I'd said that in the game, people would shrug it off at best, explain to me that no city-elf 'so-called tribe' can do that at the worst. Dwarves on the other hand, are considered forces to be reckoned with, because they have just enough social status, physical strength and trainability to be feared, while honestly you should be fearing a c-elf you don't know more, if you are an unprotected person. Until you know what that c-elf's tribe is capable of or connected with, its some risk messing with them enough to cause reasonable backlash. But there's no actual force behind a c-elf's threats, as their tribe does not provide Oash noble and aide -players- with spice--- just members of the House who aren't affecting your gameplay, and who can't affect the gameplay of player members of Oash. Dwarves, though? I still get a little frightened seeing a dwarf in Storm I don't know.

I also don't think tweaking mage subguilds' mundane abilities are the answer. If that happens and it works, great, but there's still a lot less magick than there was a couple years ago backing up that mage's threats. It makes me feel like my enemy is a warrior with magick spells, rather than a mage, and maybe its just me thinking that, but I can't get that analogy out of my head with regards to how I define current mages.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: number13 on January 20, 2019, 12:10:00 PM

When I was playing a merchant / Whiran,

You took a decidedly non-aggressive main class, and big surprise, had little aggressive potential. If you don't want to use the combat code, you could take one of the survival orientated classes, rarely touch the combat code, but still feel powerful. Try playing in a realm where you don't need a gem, skin your mundane skills as cantrips, and it can feel awesomely, absurdly powerful.

I do not miss the bad old days of main class Whirans. It's was a cheesy, grossly overpowered class. I'm not saying this of Vividians, Rukkians, or even Krathi. Whirans were a problem, and if that's what people want to get back to, I have zero sympathy.

It wasn't spooky. It's wasn't scary. It was lame.

The point is, if you want to RP a very spooky, magic-wielding character that inspires fear in other PCs, you can do that in today's Armageddon. You don't have to use weapons to do it.

If you want to kill other characters while sitting in near perfect safety, roll a Templar.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: Akaramu on January 20, 2019, 01:06:50 PM

When I was playing a merchant / Whiran,

You took a decidedly non-aggressive main class, and big surprise, had little aggressive potential.

I had some VERY aggressive spells. That I didn't use. Because I wasn't playing an aggressive character, and because I wasn't playing an aggressive character (never do) the merchant choice was just fine, thank you very much. I loved the old Whirans because of their complete skillset (spell set?) that allowed for travel and exploration without combat and with no need to have a direction sense. It also allowed for some noncombat spookiness.

Mindbenders have lots of options for spookiness that don't involve coded combat. Why don't all of the new mages? Curses have been mentioned... I'd love to see curses that can be cast across great distances (meaning, from an elementalist temple...) and lower the maximum mana pool while they're maintained. To have max mana again you'd have to dispel your maintained curse(s).

I do not miss the bad old days of main class Whirans. It's was a cheesy, grossly overpowered class. I'm not saying this of Vividians, Rukkians, or even Krathi. Whirans were a problem, and if that's what people want to get back to, I have zero sympathy.

So what? Armageddon MUD wasn't meant to be balanced or 'fair', and that's one of the reasons I used to love it. No silly balance discussions where everyone whines about how their class needs a boost and some other class needs a nerf. Magick is supposed to be grossly overpowered, and Zalanthas' entire history reflects that fact. Which is why it should be feared in the first place...
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: X-D on January 20, 2019, 01:58:41 PM
Wait...whirans? Easily the least powerful of all the mage classes and easiest to defeat? Once one single spell was removed they became almost neutered. Every other mage class was overpowered compared to whiran, specially vivs. Not that I am complaining, I think mages should be overpowered...if all they have is spells.

Currently I think they are grossly under powered, but I think that could mostly be fixed by some slight changes to mechanics and things I have already mentioned.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: number13 on January 20, 2019, 02:15:01 PM

So what? Armageddon MUD wasn't meant to be balanced or 'fair', and that's one of the reasons I used to love it. No silly balance discussions where everyone whines about how their class needs a boost and some other class needs a nerf. Magick is supposed to be grossly overpowered, and Zalanthas' entire history reflects that fact. Which is why it should be feared in the first place...

Defilers are supposed be grossly overpowered. They are feared because they wound the world. Imagine if there was a guy walking around the real world who despoils acres farm lands, so that he could brew some tea, with a snap of his fingers. It's not the tea-brewing that's necessarily scary, it's the field of ash and starving population left in his wake.

Elementalists get flak because the commoner doesn't have the savvy to distinguish between an ash-layer and an elementalist. And because of propaganda efforts from the city-states. And, granted, because of the occasional magical explosion.

Quote
for travel and exploration without combat


Risk-free exploration cheapens the exploits of those who face danger to go to the same places. I don't think it's good for the game, at all. The idea of guy flying all around the world without direction sense is absurd, besides.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 21, 2019, 05:14:44 AM
Curses have been mentioned... I'd love to see curses that can be cast across great distances (meaning, from an elementalist temple...) and lower the maximum mana pool while they're maintained. To have max mana again you'd have to dispel your maintained curse(s).
This is clever, although I don't like the idea of it originating at such great distances. To curse someone, you should have to be in the same room as them. It should be a hidden cast, so that only the observant will notice it being cast.

I do like the idea of maintaining it over time, though I think that time should be related to the power with which you cast it. There are seven spheres of power - thus I'd suggest a RL day for each power it is cast at, from Wek at 1 RL day, to Mon at 7 full RL days.

Of course, you would also be able to remove your own curses, ideally.

Code: [Select]
>curse status
You are maintaining the curse of weakness at Een on the broad-shouldered woman.
You are maintaining the curse of thirst at Mon on the bearded, grey-eyed templar.
Your mana pool is currently weakened by 35 points.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: AdamBlue on January 21, 2019, 11:31:20 AM
You know, gotta be honest. With all the years and years gone by of elementalists within Allanak, I'm surprised that people haven't gotten wise that 'elementalists aren't the shitty ones' in terms of magick.
I guess the obvious answer is, 'the templars keep people afraid of the elementalists because they don't want commoners getting more associated with magick users, and they keep up the bias that way. A regular person who would become jealous of a magicker may turn to sorcery'.
That's a lot of work, though, on the part of the templarate, to keep that shit up for so long.
CONVERSELY, HOWEVER
The way it currently is that elementalists are tools of the city and the templarate, and 'the more of them, the better' is how the city operates, since having a templar that has a guy who can heal his wounds / pyroblast his enemies / assassinate someone while flying.
Being gemmed is a gigantic social stigmata that can make or break a lot of people. Often, people who have magickal potential will either kill themselves out of disgust, flee the city out of fear of being gemmed, or begrudgingly become gemmed. Being 'gemmed' is something similar to becoming a slave, as no matter where you go, you will be known as a magicker, and you are easily spotted and easily slain with nary an excuse.

This argument made, I would have a hard time understanding why Templars would keep up the whole 'magick is a curse' schtick when the chances of sorcery is relatively low and to encourage less rogue elementalists would be a far easier solution. It would result in more elementalists, better relations between elementalists and regular people (holy shit check it out no more fucking elementalist quarter riots isn't that a fucking thing) and a more stable and unified Allanak as a whole.
It baffles me that a city-state attempting to ensure the cooperation of all of the citizens under a god-king-dragon would willingly try and shame one of their most useful assets to the city and mark them as targets to the Known.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: ABoredLion on January 21, 2019, 02:22:58 PM
Whirans are massively spooky in current gen. The other three, regardless of set up, basically aren't. Removing one thing didn't make them less potent, hah. They still got massive murder potential for little effort.

Spooky curses could be cool. Also sounds like it'd be just ridiculously annoying as a well known person though, because you're going to have like, 10 curses on you at a given time the second you make one enemy. Not sure I entirely approve but I have some tentative curiosity. Maybe it could be set up to affect people with magick in some form or another less.

I think setting up any given magicker to have terrifying potential (and not just through some spam-cast DPS spell or something, cause that's just not going to compare given Arm's style of melee combat spam, with the delays involved) is the way to go personally. I hope staff are working on this or thinking about it at least. There's a lot of opinions going around here, and the thread seems to have pushed into thoughts on things in a way that's cool.
Title: Re: Magickal Spook Factor
Post by: lostinspace on January 21, 2019, 04:06:11 PM
There could easily be other avenues for getting rid of curses. If you're already cursed, maybe it's worth it to find someone who can fix it.

How much is that gemmer in the Quarter,
the one who makes curses go away.
How much is that gemmer in the Quarter,
pay him and have a less shitty day.