Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => World Discussion => Topic started by: 650Booger on November 19, 2018, 05:00:45 PM

Title: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: 650Booger on November 19, 2018, 05:00:45 PM
Hi all, I was wondering if the humans of zalanthas would recognize differences in skin-tone and various anatomical attributes as being racial in nature.  when reading pc mdescs I see a wide variety in skin tones ranging from pale ivory to jet black, so obviously race /is/ a thing, but perhaps not recognized in the same way that we do in modern society?  obviously there is no racial discrimination allowed (or is there?) but would my white-skinned human PC look at a black-skinned human PC and think 'that person is a different race than me'.

side question, is it considered appropriate to play a human concept that has it's basis in non-white culture?  the personality traits exhibited by most PCs in this game seem like they are nearly all derived from modern middle class white suburbia.  would it be considered okay to play an asian dude?  what about edge-cases such as playing a human tribal and RPing as a native american personality?
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: evilcabbage on November 19, 2018, 05:12:29 PM
no. races are elves, dwarves, humans, half-elves, half-giants, gith, things like that.

humans are humans.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Brokkr on November 19, 2018, 05:32:43 PM
It would probably be more valid to think in terms of mutation.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Twirrs on November 19, 2018, 05:39:51 PM
Would an 'asian' character be different from a non-'asian' character?
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: 650Booger on November 19, 2018, 05:46:14 PM
Would an 'asian' character be different from a non-'asian' character?

I can think of many ways this might be true, but I'm not really sure, and thus the question
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Heade on November 19, 2018, 05:56:29 PM
IG skin tones and variation of facial features in Zalanthas would be viewed much how people view different eye colors IRL. No, one person haveing blue eyes and another having green eyes doesn't make them a different race. Same with skin tone and facial features in Zalanthas. Sure, some people might have a preference for what they're attracted to or whatever, just like IRL some people like green eyes.

It's purely cosmetic, and not at all viewed as an alternate "race". There is only one human race.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: BadSkeelz on November 19, 2018, 08:30:21 PM
We're already playing in non-white cultures, by the way.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: zztri on November 19, 2018, 10:26:38 PM
Just like in Discworld, people would be racist, but there were dwarves and trollselves.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Bogre on November 19, 2018, 10:56:54 PM
You might think of this in terms of ethnicities - do Tuluki, as a whole, tend to be paler than Allanaki? Do the Arabeti differ significantly from salt wastelanders?

I think the genetic makeup (and mutations) make things so much more a mix, and I'm not outside of families / tribes that any ethnic traits were ever established.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: daughterofauset on November 21, 2018, 03:50:23 PM
RPing as a native american personality?

I cannot speak to the rest of your post... But... Please do not do this. What are you telegraphing into "a native american personality"? There are a lot of tics and traits and habits and philosophies that have been associated with different tribes that could easily be brought in, but the phrasing of that alone makes me feel like this would be painful as hell to watch. Another game did something like this, and even wrote it into the documentation of one of the families and, as someone who actually has a fair but of American Indian blood and grew up going to pow wows and learning the actual culture of more than one tribe... It made me want to put my face through a wall.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: 650Booger on November 24, 2018, 01:51:49 PM
RPing as a native american personality?

I cannot speak to the rest of your post... But... Please do not do this. What are you telegraphing into "a native american personality"? There are a lot of tics and traits and habits and philosophies that have been associated with different tribes that could easily be brought in, but the phrasing of that alone makes me feel like this would be painful as hell to watch. Another game did something like this, and even wrote it into the documentation of one of the families and, as someone who actually has a fair but of American Indian blood and grew up going to pow wows and learning the actual culture of more than one tribe... It made me want to put my face through a wall.

can you clarify please?  because it seems like you are saying that, despite being a person of indigenous ancestry yourself, you would not want to see native culture represented in zalanthas.  are you assuming I would portray these "tics and traits and habits and philosophies" incorrectly?  what makes you assume that?   do other players incorporate elements of their own RL culture into the game world?  I would contend that indeed they do, and that it is unavoidable, as we must all necessarily pull from our own life experiences when RPing.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: MeTekillot on November 24, 2018, 02:02:12 PM
Zalanthas is not Earth, please do not bring Earth culture into it. You can rip from Earth culture, sure, but please just make it Zalanthan.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: 650Booger on November 24, 2018, 02:03:57 PM
Zalanthas is not Earth, please do not bring Earth culture into it. You can rip from Earth culture, sure, but please just make it Zalanthan.

sorry but this strikes me as a paradoxical statement
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: MeTekillot on November 24, 2018, 02:07:39 PM
Feel like you're being deliberately obtuse but in case you're not I'll try to explain.

I encourage you to use Earth as INSPIRATION for tribal/whatever-else culture and roleplay, but please do not mimic Earth cultures exactly.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: 650Booger on November 24, 2018, 02:10:25 PM
that, sir, is precisely what I propose.  and you sure do know how to shut down a civil conversation.  good day.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: daughterofauset on November 24, 2018, 03:51:00 PM
RPing as a native american personality?

I cannot speak to the rest of your post... But... Please do not do this. What are you telegraphing into "a native american personality"? There are a lot of tics and traits and habits and philosophies that have been associated with different tribes that could easily be brought in, but the phrasing of that alone makes me feel like this would be painful as hell to watch. Another game did something like this, and even wrote it into the documentation of one of the families and, as someone who actually has a fair but of American Indian blood and grew up going to pow wows and learning the actual culture of more than one tribe... It made me want to put my face through a wall.

can you clarify please?  because it seems like you are saying that, despite being a person of indigenous ancestry yourself, you would not want to see native culture represented in zalanthas.  are you assuming I would portray these "tics and traits and habits and philosophies" incorrectly?  what makes you assume that?   do other players incorporate elements of their own RL culture into the game world?  I would contend that indeed they do, and that it is unavoidable, as we must all necessarily pull from our own life experiences when RPing.

Thanks for asking for the clarification. I believe if you reread my post, you will be able to pick out that I said that its fine to incorporate elements and specific details, and in fact what I am suggesting is that it would be wildly offensive to project some imagined idea of "a native american personality" on a character IC, because of the fact that when people have done things like that historically, it has been (not naming game names, but making a group of people trophy hunters who survive off of killing rare animals for insane profits and calling them conservationists in the same documents is not only contradictory but is also not reflecting "a native american like culture" as written in so many words in said documentation). There is a difference in making sure to use all the parts of an animal and walking around as a stereotype.

I also was not saying I don't trust you specificslly to do it or not do it "well". I am saying that if you like the idea of a specific thing or two, there is nothing wrong with incorporating that, but yes, a /lot/ of representation of american Indians in pop culture, games, and media is stereotypical and vaguely offensive (see: the magical Indian trope)
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Synthesis on November 27, 2018, 05:56:53 PM
I'm sorry, but that totally comes across as gatekeeping.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: tapas on November 27, 2018, 06:47:20 PM
It might be gatekeeping if anyone borrowed something that wasn't verbing-noun names, tomahawks and scalping.

It's like someone's best understanding of Native American culture came from 90's saturday morning cartoons.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Synthesis on November 27, 2018, 07:06:41 PM
Please, tell us all which customs that may have been in use by Native American tribes are and aren't acceptable for use in Armageddon.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: tapas on November 27, 2018, 07:38:17 PM
Dude I'm not telling you not to play your caricature. I'm just saying, I roll my eyes whenever I see it.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Synthesis on November 27, 2018, 07:40:10 PM
No, no...by all means...in the spirit of wishing to avoid caricatures...please...enlighten us as to which customs are and aren't acceptable for use.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: tapas on November 27, 2018, 07:50:43 PM
Okay. Let's see. We can start with 1950's Peter Pan. Anything you see in there has got to go.

T. Hawk from street fighter.

Johnny Depp's Kemosabe is right out.

Adapt anything you saw in Pocahontas, Legends of the Fall and Dances with Wolves with intense care.



Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: evilcabbage on November 27, 2018, 08:03:41 PM
i have a better idea.


let staff determine what's okay and what's not okay.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Dar on November 28, 2018, 01:52:42 AM
Or maybe just discard the notion of trying to mimic ANY IRL culture and come up with a culture of your own. If it resembles IRL culture, fine? If it doesnt, it's also fine. Then kill, scalp, and consume anyone who rolls eyes at you ICly.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: lairos on November 28, 2018, 10:10:07 AM
To respond to the questions of the OP:

Every single race has a very large range of colors of skin, eye color and hair color that don't fit the norms we know in RL and some by way of small mutation which is widely accepted. Typically, as far as I am aware, racism of a different color of a race in Arm is actually frowned on because of the fact it too closely resembles things in RL. Racism in the form such as human to elf or half elf is accepted and thematic. As a caveat to this there is a wariness, hatred or dislike of Mutants such as someone with bark for skin for example, but this is more commonly found in Allanak. Mutants are pretty accepted in most other parts of the known especially that place with closed gates. At the end of the day, a human would see a human and same goes for any race. The only one that gets a little fuzzy now and then is a half elf who can sometimes be hard to discern immediately.

To the side question: I don't think I have ever personally felt that Zalanthan humans are based towards a "White culture" and I believe the game as a whole has been very good about keeping RL notions like that out of the game. Zalanthan humans are Zalanthans and come in many shapes, sizes, colors and so on and many with small mutations(despite most males being amazingly buff looking). There are the city humans, tribal humans and the mix of in-between. Based on all these examples of colors and differences I think you could very well play and write up a Zalanthan any way you want that fits within the documentation.

As a final aside to another post I saw in this thread, there is already scalping IC and has been for quite some time.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Heade on November 28, 2018, 11:40:55 AM
(despite most males being amazingly buff looking).

Just want to point out that, without modern entertainment like television/computers, with most liesure activities being physical in nature, and a lack of sugary processed foods, "buff looking" would likely be the standard for a well-fed human male from a literary perspective(ie, from the point of view of the reader).

So, on the scale of human male physique, the most common should probably be a malnurished/thin look, followed by athletic, then buff, and at the rare end, fat. Seeing as how many people prefer to play the "stars" of the show, which really isn't a problem, as PCs sort of represent that in a world filled with NPCs/vNPCs, I don't see a problem with the number of athletic/buff PCs in game.

You want the malnourished peasant who'd die to a stiff breeze? Yeah, he's right over there in the corner, puking on the floor. No one is playing him as a PC, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If we were really trying to play to represent realistic population levels of various demographics, there'd be a public outcry to allow slaves again, and 50% of us would play slaves, 25% beggars, 23% skilled commoners(hunters/grebbers/crafters/soldiers), and 2% Nobles/Templars/GMH family members.

But that game wouldn't be fun(with our current active population numbers). So, ease up off the whining about athletic/buff males, k? ;)
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: lairos on November 28, 2018, 12:07:30 PM
(despite most males being amazingly buff looking).

Just want to point out that, without modern entertainment like television/computers, with most liesure activities being physical in nature, and a lack of sugary processed foods, "buff looking" would likely be the standard for a well-fed human male from a literary perspective(ie, from the point of view of the reader).

So, on the scale of human male physique, the most common should probably be a malnurished/thin look, followed by athletic, then buff, and at the rare end, fat. Seeing as how many people prefer to play the "stars" of the show, which really isn't a problem, as PCs sort of represent that in a world filled with NPCs/vNPCs, I don't see a problem with the number of athletic/buff PCs in game.

You want the malnourished peasant who'd die to a stiff breeze? Yeah, he's right over there in the corner, puking on the floor. No one is playing him as a PC, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If we were really trying to play to represent realistic population levels of various demographics, there'd be a public outcry to allow slaves again, and 50% of us would play slaves, 25% beggars, 23% skilled commoners(hunters/grebbers/crafters/soldiers), and 2% Nobles/Templars/GMH family members.

But that game wouldn't be fun(with our current active population numbers). So, ease up off the whining about athletic/buff males, k? ;)

I appreciate your point of view and happen to agree. I can't tell if I should just simply laugh at your entire post and take it as a joke (Just as my little comment that you chose to pull out of was meant to be) or that you truly have very strong feelings on the subject.

As I said in the post as a whole, you can play whatever Zalanthan you want as long as it fits the documentation. That post was meant towards the OP's discussion of colors and races. My statement also includes everything from the massively buff and tall to the super short and fat and everywhere in-between. Thank you for pointing that out.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Heade on November 28, 2018, 12:18:25 PM
(despite most males being amazingly buff looking).

Just want to point out that, without modern entertainment like television/computers, with most liesure activities being physical in nature, and a lack of sugary processed foods, "buff looking" would likely be the standard for a well-fed human male from a literary perspective(ie, from the point of view of the reader).

So, on the scale of human male physique, the most common should probably be a malnurished/thin look, followed by athletic, then buff, and at the rare end, fat. Seeing as how many people prefer to play the "stars" of the show, which really isn't a problem, as PCs sort of represent that in a world filled with NPCs/vNPCs, I don't see a problem with the number of athletic/buff PCs in game.

You want the malnourished peasant who'd die to a stiff breeze? Yeah, he's right over there in the corner, puking on the floor. No one is playing him as a PC, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If we were really trying to play to represent realistic population levels of various demographics, there'd be a public outcry to allow slaves again, and 50% of us would play slaves, 25% beggars, 23% skilled commoners(hunters/grebbers/crafters/soldiers), and 2% Nobles/Templars/GMH family members.

But that game wouldn't be fun(with our current active population numbers). So, ease up off the whining about athletic/buff males, k? ;)

I appreciate your point of view and happen to agree. I can't tell if I should just simply laugh at your entire post and take it as a joke (Just as my little comment that you chose to pull out of was meant to be) or that you truly have very strong feelings on the subject.

As I said in the post as a whole, you can play whatever Zalanthan you want as long as it fits the documentation. That post was meant towards the OP's discussion of colors and races. My statement also includes everything from the massively buff and tall to the super short and fat and everywhere in-between. Thank you for pointing that out.

lol, I don't really have super strong feelings on it. I just see people disparagingly mention athletic/buff PCs all the time, and I normally don't say anything about it. But I had a little extra time on my hands this time, is all. And, it seemed like a good thread to discuss perception and diversity. :D
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Tekky on December 02, 2018, 08:27:05 AM
I recall that we once had docs that claimed Allanakis were darker in skin and hair, compared to Tulukis. Did those get scrubbed along the way somewhere?
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: manipura on December 02, 2018, 11:06:53 AM
I recall that we once had docs that claimed Allanakis were darker in skin and hair, compared to Tulukis. Did those get scrubbed along the way somewhere?

Not sure what happened to it.  It absolutely used to be a thing and I was going to stick it in this thread but eventually gave up because despite combing through docs and help files I couldn’t locate it anywhere.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Nao on December 02, 2018, 12:18:47 PM
I recall that we once had docs that claimed Allanakis were darker in skin and hair, compared to Tulukis. Did those get scrubbed along the way somewhere?

Not sure what happened to it.  It absolutely used to be a thing and I was going to stick it in this thread but eventually gave up because despite combing through docs and help files I couldn’t locate it anywhere.

I found it in the old quickstart (http://old.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html):

Quote
Southerners tend to be darker in skin and hair color than northerners. Very few fair-skinned people exist. There are some mutations among commoners; you are advised to keep them to a minimum in your first character.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Hauwke on December 02, 2018, 04:47:16 PM
I would assume that this is more a tanning thing, more time in the sun leads to them with just having slightly darker skin.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Jihelu on December 02, 2018, 08:44:30 PM
The south is just generally hotter, IIRC. Or perhaps it got hit hardest by the Dragon and thats why its hotter? The north does still have a forest, after all. More wood also might lead to more canopy like structures in the city, as well.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: 650Booger on December 04, 2018, 07:18:50 PM
if two PCs who are described as ebon-skinned within their mdescs copulate and have a child, what should we expect in terms of that child's appearance?  do genetics work the same way in zalanthas as they do on earth?
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Jihelu on December 04, 2018, 07:52:47 PM
I imagine genetics would take a heavy factor but remember, Zalanthas has a lot more mutants than real life. This may be due to actual radiation, or magic.

Though genetics exist enough that they can breed away magic from Muls so, it exists.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Brokkr on December 04, 2018, 09:29:18 PM
Whatever the third member of your family role call apps in.
Title: Re: racial differentiation amongst humans
Post by: Cind on December 05, 2018, 12:24:38 AM
The south is just generally hotter, IIRC. Or perhaps it got hit hardest by the Dragon and thats why its hotter? The north does still have a forest, after all. More wood also might lead to more canopy like structures in the city, as well.

The docs say somewhere that the south was more verdant than the north before the Dragon came and introduced defiling. It is possible the Dragon spent much of his time in the south? Then he also had the dragonthralls, personal servants using tiny portions of his power to do his bidding, although Luir's is the remnants of the last dragonthrall's lair, which is technically in the north. I say that because I assume the dragonthralls were spread to all corners of the Known, making sure people didn't collect together in large enough groups to pose a threat. This is all in the docs somewhere, or in the mdescs of desert rooms.

And yes, the forest would have a cooling effect on their nearby environment, not just within the forest itself.