Don't gotta make it human level. But it sucks. It sucks. It fucking sucks. It sucks so much. Oh my god. What the fuck. It fucking sucks. It's awful. Terrible. Horrible. Absolutely garbage. Crippling, to be honest, if you get hit with it low enough. You can get strength so low your starting gear puts you at 'easily manageable'. What the fuck?
While we're at it, let's raise agility and wisdom for half giants.
Or. Prioritize strength.
I'm against this.
Prioritize strength so you can be mediocre instead of crippled, good idea.
Strength determines both your chance to hit and how hard you hit. High agility is helpful for dodging but it sure isn't helpful when you're wearing 0 armor and someone manages to tell you about your life right to the neck with the lofty heights of your 80 hp.
Of course, reasonably, an elf would make up for their physical frailness by doing fight shit in a group with the advantages that confers, but good luck with your 0 clan options, lmao
Even with AI strength your elf will not be really strong. But he/she will have other attributes that humans won't be able to match. You have to just accept this, and learn how to play it. "Easily manageable" start can be rough but isn't a deal-breaker. Stow your starting sids in the bank and hang your waterskin on your belt, and you'll probably end up "light."
Please tell me more about how elves are actually balanced and that's why people play half-giants more than elves
Are dwarven wisdom and agility the same level of pathetic in comparison to human levels that elven strength and endurance are?
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 20, 2018, 10:28:21 AM
Please tell me more about how elves are actually balanced and that's why people play half-giants more than elves
Who's claiming that they're balanced? I'm addressing your very specific concern about elves not being strong. They are not strong. This shouldn't be news to you, it's been that way for a couple of decades. A new player might have a legit gripe because they might not realize that "not strong" really REALLY means "not strong."
I've never played a city elf. I -have- played a desert elf, mundane ranger with non-special non-magickal subguild. This is how she started, out of chargen:
Code Generated Long Description.
You are 39 years, 0 months, and 5 days old,
which by your race and appearance is mature.
You are 87 inches tall, and weigh 9 ten-stone.
Your strength is very good, your agility is good,
your wisdom is above average, and your endurance is exceptional.
You are neither hungry nor thirsty.
Your health is 129(129), you have 179(191) stamina, and 103(103) stun.
You have been playing for 0 days and 0 hours.
You are standing.
You are currently speaking allundean with a desert accent.
129/129;179/191;103/103> Your encumbrance is very light.
The combination of stats is what made her codedly awesome, not any singular stat. That was Quirri's Claw. She ran the desert at "reasonably manageable" almost continuously. Sometimes got stuck at manageable for a few days, but I never emphasized stealth with her so it didn't really make that much of a difference. As I said - you play up the strengths, and downplay the weaknesses. Or you can work on the weaknesses to get them as efficient as possible, even if it's still limiting. And then play up the strengths.
That's how I always work on the code of the game, and with very VERY few exceptions it has worked in my favor as far as coded playability is concerned.
Your singular anecdote has completely destroyed my argument with facts and logic. All I need to make city elves playable while still being a complete joke as a coded threat is to game the code with decades of experience? It's so simple.
d.elves are fine, being able to snipe people from stealth out in the wllderness is OP as heck
c.elves are a joke and need buffs either in the form of tribes, skills or stats and no shut up playing as an character that can't get hired into any clans (apart from the byn where they're worthless) and codedly can't do much nearly as well as other races isn't hard mode it's just unfun pretentious ego-stroking
Strength values as a whole need to be looked at.
It's never felt like bad agility, endurance or wisdom rolls were much of an obstacle.
But with a low strength roll it's like you need to prepared to get your ass washed by virtually anyone who prioritized it. Skills don't seem to matter that much. Leather armor will virtually defeat you. Carry weight will be a chronic concern.
And that zero day dwarf fighter with a club will smash you in two hits.
It might be tolerable to the legacy ranger with overloaded defense. But with any other 20 day character, it's a daily disappointment.
The staff don't care how much city-elves suck, as long as we keep playing them.
The solution is simple:
STOP PLAYING CITY ELVES
Just stop. Don't play them for the challenge. Don't play them as a temporary PC just to fuck around with. Don't play them because you love the idea of them and just put up with all the trash coded disadvantages.
Boycott them until they get fixed.
D.Elves is pretty solid, I don't think they need buffs.
I am too ignorant of the facts with C.Elves, I have no opinion.
Haven't played many city elves. A few. Almost always roguish types. They do have some nice advantages, including the ability to dodge very well with their high agility, along with a certain skill that all elves get. Straight from the docs:
Notes:
The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.
Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
So, two points from here: One, if there is only one elven race and the only difference is the result of differing lifestyles, maybe it would be better to give city elves the same coded stats as desert elves. I don't know for certain, but it does seem like desert elves are both stronger and have more endurance than city elves. Maybe staff could verify this.... Two, Elves are not strong :) We were warned. For the record though, if city elves do have to have sucky strength, they should have more cool stuff to make up for it. I mean, sucky strength, not being able to ride, not being able to join clans, can be rather crippling for what could/should be a fun character concept.
As someone who has played countless city elfs and enjoys doing so, I think them being pretty weak is what makes them so great. Hence why they must resort to skullduggery and things alike to get what they want. And if some of my C Elfs were any stronger, they would of made off with literally everything that wasn't nailed down in your apartment.
That said, I can see why this a valid point, but why not just play a half-elf then?
After playing one for quite a while, I honestly don't think celves need fixing. They have significant weaknesses, but they also have significant strengths in other areas. Utilize them.
City elf something/empowerment Rukkian to overcome strength woes. You're already going to be viewed as criminal scum even if you aren't, so what's throwing some magick into the mix.
Quote from: Eyeball on October 20, 2018, 03:18:18 PM
City elf something/empowerment Rukkian to overcome strength woes. You're already going to be viewed as criminal scum even if you aren't, so what's throwing some magick into the mix.
This dude knows whats up.
Quote from: Synthesis on October 20, 2018, 01:00:19 PM
The staff don't care how much city-elves suck, as long as we keep playing them.
The solution is simple:
STOP PLAYING CITY ELVES
Just stop. Don't play them for the challenge. Don't play them as a temporary PC just to fuck around with. Don't play them because you love the idea of them and just put up with all the trash coded disadvantages.
Boycott them until they get fixed.
You've played some pretty cool celves my man.
Rash was great, though he had the coded tribe support.
And you were Prystick, too, weren't you? Also a great celf.
Not disagreeing that the race needs some work, but there's fun play to be had.
Rash started out coded Sandas (and had AMAZING stats for a pickpocket), and had a custom magick subguild before magick subguilds were a thing, at a time when the tribe was open and being supported by staff.
Prystik started out independent, but I was playing during a time when the coded elven tribes were open and had staff support, and he eventually was recruited and rose to become the Voice of the Jaxa Pah.
See a common theme, there?
I'm totally against increasing strength on celves.
It might be beneficial to make celves minimum hp to be 90. Just avoid dumbass blink out story ends
Quote from: Dar on October 20, 2018, 06:33:55 PM
I'm totally against increasing strength on celves.
It might be beneficial to make celves minimum hp to be 90. Just avoid dumbass blink out story ends
95 even, but I agree entirely with this. I'd almost be inclined to consider lower values to be in the unplayable threshold :P
Quote from: Synthesis on October 20, 2018, 05:42:35 PM
Rash started out coded Sandas (and had AMAZING stats for a pickpocket), and had a custom magick subguild before magick subguilds were a thing, at a time when the tribe was open and being supported by staff.
Prystik started out independent, but I was playing during a time when the coded elven tribes were open and had staff support, and he eventually was recruited and rose to become the Voice of the Jaxa Pah.
See a common theme, there?
I see a theme....back in your doctoring days you named characters after symptoms and prescription drugs.
Quote from: Nao on October 20, 2018, 03:14:32 PM
After playing one for quite a while, I honestly don't think celves need fixing. They have significant weaknesses, but they also have significant strengths in other areas. Utilize them.
^
Thank you - I am glad that a lot of people don't realize the potency of a city elf ;]
Quote from: yousuff on October 20, 2018, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 20, 2018, 06:33:55 PM
I'm totally against increasing strength on celves.
It might be beneficial to make celves minimum hp to be 90. Just avoid dumbass blink out story ends
95 even, but I agree entirely with this. I'd almost be inclined to consider lower values to be in the unplayable threshold :P
Umm, can't humans have lower HP than that?
Quote from: Heade on October 21, 2018, 01:14:34 AM
Quote from: yousuff on October 20, 2018, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 20, 2018, 06:33:55 PM
I'm totally against increasing strength on celves.
It might be beneficial to make celves minimum hp to be 90. Just avoid dumbass blink out story ends
95 even, but I agree entirely with this. I'd almost be inclined to consider lower values to be in the unplayable threshold :P
Umm, can't humans have lower HP than that?
Sure can. I think I had a min-age human ranger/thief with only 80hp.
Back to the strength thing. Strength's influence on carry capacity should be entirely reworked. Overall, strength's influence on damage should be compressed: raised at the low end, nerfed at the high end.
But seriously, just stop playing city elves.
I don't know for sure but I always suspected guild choice affected stats.
In ye olden Guilds if one picked a warrior one tended to roll decent to good strength. Whereas if ye old Burglar c elf has shite strength ye only had yeself to blame.
So if high strength is what ye seek make ye a fightin main class selection and be older and stop ye whinin'. :)
Your blow bounces off a filthy grey rat's tough skin.
Quote from: Harmless on October 21, 2018, 10:23:09 AM
I don't know for sure but I always suspected guild choice affected stats.
In ye olden Guilds if one picked a warrior one tended to roll decent to good strength. Whereas if ye old Burglar c elf has shite strength ye only had yeself to blame.
So if high strength is what ye seek make ye a fightin main class selection and be older and stop ye whinin'. :)
I know I asked in another thread and never found the answer, so... I do know that previous classes had stat bonuses. Since the classes have been reworked, what are the new stat bonuses if any? Maybe I'm not allowed to know but I am very curious. :)
That information isn't given out probably, but I imagine you could guess by the class description.
For example, some classes have literal alcohol and pain tolerance bonuses..sounds like endurance to me. A stealthy one would likely get agility.. one described as a fighting type, especially if with brute strength, well, there you go.
That information isn't given, but this little snippet will reveal some info.
Quote from: seidhr on October 12, 2018, 09:54:51 PM
AI means that you have above the racial cap for that stat. There's class and age based bonuses (and penalties) to stats - that's the only way to get there except shorter-lived modifications you can get via magick, spice, and so on.
If you get AI in a stat and start at a middling age range for your class, your class probably gave you that boost.
Empowerment should probably be moved to three karma.
High strength actually scares me more than a fireball does these days.
(Provided there is no actual change to strength.)
Quote from: tapas on October 24, 2018, 12:16:13 PM
Empowerment should probably be moved to three karma.
High strength actually scares me more than a fireball does these days.
(Provided there is no actual change to strength.)
Eh. That subclass seems more OP than it actually is. It's actually kind of boring compared to other options.
Players use it because of the ease of play and the combat potential it gives their pc. I'd agree that it's boring, but that's got nothing to do with it's power.
AI agility, master stealth city elves are fun as hell. who cares about strength when you're a ghost.
Just glancing through this thread, I find myself sorely in need of cheese to clear my sommelier palate.
It's not the staff don't care about making things balanced, it's the city elves are balanced. Sorry you don't agree bro, sorry your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal bro. But the pure and simple fact is that City elves and desert elves aren't going to be changed, because they work perfectly for what they are.
"But they don't do enough damage."
*gestures vaguely at a huge history of deadly elves*
"But they can't carry stuff."
*nods slightly at the mount/pack code*
"But I want to instagibb errthing and be hella smrat.*
We already have had enough high int half giants, kthx.
Elves, both City and desert, are meant to be lightweight, highly mobile guerrilla combatants. If you are in a Toe to Toe fight with your opponent and you don't have an advantage, you're already playing an elf wrong.
I'll admit I don't play many elves, but I'd like to add that I've seen both city and desert elves fucking destroy in combat, chiefly when they use indirect abilities (i.e., anything other than just "kill.")
I take them more seriously than I do dwarves and humans in direct combat, because direct combat can, honestly, be escaped or avoided very easily.
I feel like elves using indirect combat strategies are as deadly as half-giants and muls using direct combat strategies. They're borderline terrifying.
Thrown weapons are cool and all but their damage is strength based
Also the delay on them after throwing is long enough for them to run you down and bash you
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 24, 2018, 03:05:42 PM
Thrown weapons are cool and all but their damage is strength based
Also the delay on them after throwing is long enough for them to run you down and bash you
If they can still move...
Let's also not discount how badass elves seem to be at bashing (I assume in part because of their height).
Also did you really suggest that I tote a mount around because my carry weight is hilariously low
In order to play a city elf effectively, all you need to do is know how to game the code just well enough that you look competent instead of a powergamer. Meanwhile, as anyone else, just prioritize strength. It's balanced!
While I disagree with celves increase in strength, I do think reevaluating the sheer level of benefit high strength gives may be a wise idea for the game. Currently, strength trumps every other stat. To a point where having an AI celven agility is verrry verrry nice, but having an exceptional strength of a dwarf is MONSTROUSLY INCREDIBLY AWESOME!
Not long ago, I had the option of choosing which stat to increase prior to dangerous situations, and pretty much always I elected to improve strength. From its defensive/mobility benefits of easing encumbrance, to the damage output that it offers. All in all, strength is simply far too superior a stat, compared to any other.
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 24, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
Also did you really suggest that I tote a mount around because my carry weight is hilariously low
Are you quoting yourself, dude? Metekillot, chill man. Everyone's got their points of view. It's great to be passionate, but it gets uncomfortable sometimes, without it adding any benefit to your point.
It just seems insanely tone deaf to suggest that a city elf keep a mount because their encumbrance limit is a joke.
Quote from: Dar on October 24, 2018, 05:12:51 PM
While I disagree with celves increase in strength, I do think reevaluating the sheer level of benefit high strength gives may be a wise idea for the game. Currently, strength trumps every other stat. To a point where having an AI celven agility is verrry verrry nice, but having an exceptional strength of a dwarf is MONSTROUSLY INCREDIBLY AWESOME!
Not long ago, I had the option of choosing which stat to increase prior to dangerous situations, and pretty much always I elected to improve strength. From its defensive/mobility benefits of easing encumbrance, to the damage output that it offers. All in all, strength is simply far too superior a stat, compared to any other.
That's the gist of it. Low strength is playable.
But then you glance over to the character beside you who is wounding shit on day zero, functionally 30 days of combat grind ahead of you and can easily smash you in the first couple rounds of combat.
And you go HMMMM I might want to reconsider what I define as "playable" now.
If I was playing to win at PK match like this was a Rust server, I'd absolutely take a c-elf with AI agility over a dwarf with AI strength.
City Elves suck to play and have been complained about for so long now. It's a topic that comes up probably more often than any other singular issue with the game. Throughout the years there have been a couple instances of staff saying they were going to try to address those issues, but that never panned out.
I think staff have tried. I just think they're dealing with a concept that is on so shoddy a foundation that trying to build atop it will never work out. That foundation is thievery and weakness and tribalism. Two major detractors and one facet that can't be played with in a meaningful way.
I think it's about time for the people to get sick of these skinny thieves. Elf Genocide will be the next HRPT. Destroy them as a race so we can build them into something more enjoyable to play.
Quote from: number13 on October 24, 2018, 08:12:59 PM
If I was playing to win at PK match like this was a Rust server, I'd absolutely take a c-elf with AI agility over a dwarf with AI strength.
Yeah, and by hour 400 your elf might be as capable of killing as a 1 day dwarf.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 24, 2018, 08:25:54 PM
Yeah, and by hour 400 your elf might be as capable of killing as a 1 day dwarf.
If I'm metagaming, using knowledge from prior characters, and playing only to win, then my day one elf will kill a day one dwarf. And if the plan botches, the elf can run around in circles in the Rinth absolutely forever until the dwarf player gets bored, then grind up a little and try again with the same tactic.
Quote from: number13 on October 24, 2018, 10:18:19 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 24, 2018, 08:25:54 PM
Yeah, and by hour 400 your elf might be as capable of killing as a 1 day dwarf.
If I'm metagaming, using knowledge from prior characters, and playing only to win, then my day one elf will kill a day one dwarf. And if the plan botches, the elf can run around in circles in the Rinth absolutely forever until the dwarf player gets bored, then grind up a little and try again with the same tactic.
Forgive me, Number13. I confess your points makes me cringe. Your statements are theoretical, not practical. Nobody who had a successful, long lived Celf character will make statements like the ones you do. And to support that point, you innuend other people's roleplay quality. I find that to be very nonconstructive and a little bit insulting. I too disagree with the OP's posts,but it's certainly possible to disagree with it, without being insulting. Maybe that's just me, but I figured I'd let you know how your posts are seen by at least me.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on October 24, 2018, 02:30:25 PM
Just glancing through this thread, I find myself sorely in need of cheese to clear my sommelier palate.
It's not the staff don't care about making things balanced, it's the city elves are balanced. Sorry you don't agree bro, sorry your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal bro. But the pure and simple fact is that City elves and desert elves aren't going to be changed, because they work perfectly for what they are.
"But they don't do enough damage."
*gestures vaguely at a huge history of deadly elves*
"But they can't carry stuff."
*nods slightly at the mount/pack code*
"But I want to instagibb errthing and be hella smrat.*
We already have had enough high int half giants, kthx.
Elves, both City and desert, are meant to be lightweight, highly mobile guerrilla combatants. If you are in a Toe to Toe fight with your opponent and you don't have an advantage, you're already playing an elf wrong.
Ahem, while I largely agree but have basically defended elves too often (and thus haven't really participated here), I -would- say that the legitimacy of the strength gripe comes in the amount of encumbrance from the lighter armors of the game. In days of yore, not a big a deal, but in days where encumbrance affects certain things more heavily, it's actually kind of a deal for any who dress the part of what you describe in a non-filthy-rinthrat capacity.
I've always said that that was more of an itemization than race-tweaking issue, though.
QuoteIt's a topic that comes up probably more often than any other singular issue with the game.
Just as a note, the framework of those complaints, outside of the need for coded tribes (i.e. The complaints about city-elf stats, mechanics, bonuses, etc) are generally based around trying to play the elf as if it were supposed to be something else. If you play an elf, and try to kill things like you are a dwarf, then yes, you'll be underwhelmed.
Played a bunch of combat oriented c-elves, got a lot done without being long-lived, never had a c-elf with higher than "good" strength that I can recall. Never had any issues and nearly all of them were successful characters. In fact, I'd say my ratio of successful elves vs successful humans is probably very, very in favor of the elves. City elves are good in one place, the city. The race + classes are actually insanely powerful and if anything, really op in a lot of areas. Play your dwarves and wear your platemail with your awesome strength, find a nice middle ground on stats with a human, or be a god damn master of all things agility based with a c-elf. They fit their role in the city, desert elves are a bit stronger, more endurance, a bit less agility than c-elves, but their race is catered to survive in the desert. Agility helps on a HUGE amount of skills and also favors combat defense hugely..and lots of combat skills that tend to be how those sneaky elves tend to fight.
If you feel like your elf needs to be able to wear silt horror armor to be viable as a character, you're probably doing it wrong.
Well I'm glad my point of city elves being so stupendously weak that starting eq pings them with encumbrance penalties has been addressed, rather than propped up as a strawman of "u want silt horror armor elves? No thanx". Thanks.
Etwo dagger attacks bouncing off rat hide seems sensible now that you've convinced me.
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 25, 2018, 02:09:06 AM
Well I'm glad my point of city elves being so stupendously weak that starting eq pings them with encumbrance penalties has been addressed, rather than propped up as a strawman of "u want silt horror armor elves? No thanx". Thanks.
It's not like you've been incredibly specific, here. Where did you prioritize strength for that to happen? How bad was the roll?
I imagine a human could be in the same sort of boat with strength prioritized last and a shitty roll. A bit of context is important. Some characters gotta be weak in a system with random stats. That's just the way it is. Not
every elf starts with encumbrance penalties from starting eq, right?
Even my human rangers bounce attacks off of animals out of the gate sometimes. Do they for more than a handful of hours playtime and practicing? No. You act as though it's a problem that will plague your character for the entirety of their existence.
Also, this encumbrance thing..
Above average elven strength, I have a log here showing one of my pc's in an entire outfit of leather, with multiple weapons. Light encumbrance.
It's really easy to pick up one wrong item in Armageddon and throw your encumrance out of whack. You'd be surprised how much that spear or that shield weighs, value is a pretty rad skill.
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 25, 2018, 02:10:44 AM
Etwo dagger attacks bouncing off rat hide seems sensible now that you've convinced me.
Extreme sarcasm aimed at people who very specifically know the problems of the race you're talking about just comes across in ways that are definitely not favorable to either your cause or the presentation of your knowledge of said race.
Trust me, I know the plights of elven strength. Also trust me, you're totally overdoing the scenario quoted above, and the attempts to lead those less well-versed into believing that this is a consistent 'problem' aren't really doing a single person any favors.
QuoteAlso, this encumbrance thing..
Above average elven strength, I have a log here showing one of my pc's in an entire outfit of leather, with multiple weapons. Light encumbrance.
They were likely lucky enough to find a single set that actually has good weight ratios, or they were lucky enough to be clanned with quarters to keep random items that are useful to keep around on a shady elf, or were part of a class where keeping items that stay in your inventory until they're useful isn't a thing. Likely also not concerned with carrying water or food.
Essentially, there are items in the game that are appropriate for elven encumbrance insofar as you do have at least above average or good strength, but they will put you directly on the border of encumbered so that a race that does not often have 'safe' storage for anything will more often than not be encumbered.
Again, I think this is less an issue of elven strength (because I actually find their damage levels and such fairly appropriate), but an issue where certain things just don't scale well as far as weight and encumbrance.
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 25, 2018, 02:09:06 AM
Well I'm glad my point of city elves being so stupendously weak that starting eq pings them with encumbrance penalties has been addressed, rather than propped up as a strawman of "u want silt horror armor elves? No thanx". Thanks.
Stop playing city elves.
Quote from: Dar on October 24, 2018, 10:52:42 PM
And to support that point, you innuend other people's roleplay quality.
...what?
I'm imagining a scenario where it's like Rust server, where you play to win, using all of your knowledge (rather than limiting yourself to your character's knowledge). In that scenario, I'm saying I could beat a day one dwarf with a day one elf, and in that match up, I would take the elf over the dwarf. Statwise, c-elves are pretty good.
I'm taking roleplaying out of that equation entirely. Mine, the opponents, and virtual world, and just comparing effectiveness within the rinthi environment.
....actually, let me more explicit about the scenario. A dwarf player and an elf player get 24 hours of play to grind up and collect gear, without fighting each other. At the end of that 24 hours, they must both stay logged in, in the Rinth, with no other players participating, until one or the other dies.
Assuming equal knowledge from both players, the elf would win that scenario most of the time.
GDB is dumb. Elf would be nice with a little more strength.
That being said stop comparing classes and races like balance is a thing. Remember when mages were basically unstoppable at 5 days played (don't mention your 20 day ranger again nobody cares about how good your pew pew is).
I love celf, and they can kill just fine with a bit of extra time in them. They make great thieves, assassins or mages, personally, though.
Narrowing encumbrance ranges would probably be the better solution than increasing elven strength. It would avoid making elves stronger than they're supposed to be in lore while still allowing them to carry basic gear they need to operate. Finally it would eliminate the walking pack-mule effect of high strength characters with a single code adjustment.
Quote from: Majikal on October 25, 2018, 02:20:21 AM
Even my human rangers bounce attacks off of animals out of the gate sometimes. Do they for more than a handful of hours playtime and practicing? No. You act as though it's a problem that will plague your character for the entirety of their existence.
So far it's still a thing. With all listed combat skills at their maximum.
I was also not exagerrating about being able to get strength low enough that etwo dagger attacks will bounce off of rats.
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 21, 2018, 10:25:49 AM
Your blow bounces off a filthy grey rat's tough skin.
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 25, 2018, 02:10:44 AM
Etwo dagger attacks bouncing off rat hide seems sensible now that you've convinced me.
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 25, 2018, 08:51:22 PM
I was also not exagerrating about being able to get strength low enough that etwo dagger attacks will bounce off of rats.
Please, have a hot chocolate and sit down on a nice chair.
Breathe.
Smell the nice aroma of the hot drink. Wait. Pause. Consider.
In my experience, Armaddict and Synthesis have the hours behind many city elf characters. In my biased opinion, they have the knowledge of 'the plight of zalanthas elves'. What are they saying?
Quote from: Armaddict on October 25, 2018, 01:53:09 AM
...the framework of those complaints, outside of the need for coded tribes (i.e. The complaints about city-elf stats, mechanics, bonuses, etc) are generally based around trying to play the elf as if it were supposed to be something else. If you play an elf, and try to kill things like you are a dwarf, then yes, you'll be underwhelmed.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elves
"Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is physically weak,
you are advised not to choose this race."
I think topic needs to levelset as to what the intent of the elven race is, and what this change would do if we implemented it. There are a few things that can be done in regards to the strength stat.
Are we simply asking for more damage to be shifted from weapons that would benefit from agility, a-la D&D 5e agility based bonuses for piercing weapons? Or are we asking to adjust the encumberance tolerances for elven race, to carry more equipment? Are we asking to create elven-race specific equipment that is lighter than human equipment?
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 20, 2018, 10:16:36 AM
Don't gotta make it human level. But it sucks. It sucks. It fucking sucks. It sucks so much. Oh my god. What the fuck. It fucking sucks. It's awful. Terrible. Horrible. Absolutely garbage. Crippling, to be honest, if you get hit with it low enough. You can get strength so low your starting gear puts you at 'easily manageable'. What the fuck?
...Or are we just saying it sucks?
I think it should be a discussion about bringing stats back to earth in general.
YES. Please. I've hated stats in this game for a long, long time. The difference between AI and very poor is MASSIVE. It's too much of a random gamble when making your character. I'm consistently disappointed in my stats and it doesn't matter how many times people tell you "stats don't matter" or any stat is payable. To the first stats might not matter for them but they do for a lot of other people. And to the second "playable" is not what I look for when I'm trying to gauge my enjoyment of a game.
Having agility based weapons with a lower cap on damage than strength based weapons, to allow Mister McBeefWarrior to do DAMRAGE better than some miscreant, would be sick, imo. But mostly, I think you shouldn't be a literal cripple if you roll low elf strength. Maybe you should be able to wear, I don't fucking know, three pieces of armor? Be able to stab a rat if you can hit it? Be able to carry a waterskin without receiving encumbrance penalty to what everyone seems to agree is supposed to be elves' main stat.
Can't we still have elves be weaker than human if we bring their lack of strength in line with dwarves' comparative lack of agility and wisdom compared to humans? I really do feel like elves are much weaker than humans, than dwarves are slower and stupider than humans.
Though, that may be the case right now, which if so, maybe something can be done over strength being the exponential galaxy spanning god emperor of stats.
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.
Strength wins battles.
Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.
Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.
You can also lift some weights IRL and you can't really do that in Arm.
Quote from: roughneck on October 26, 2018, 05:29:49 AM
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.
Strength wins battles.
Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.
Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.
Black widow, batman, daredevil, bruce lee, ninjas, pretty much most martial artists really. All are primarily agility/technique/cunning based fighters, not strength focused ones. Your example, in my opinion, is bad Roughneck.
I'm still against increasing celven strength.
But maybe, yes, perhaps strength sheer impact on 'everything' should be reevaluated, so it is not so much more superior to any other stat.
Or perhaps all other skills should be reevaluated, so they rely on agility/wisdom more? Perhaps the problem is that agility becomes irrelevant once the skills are high enough, while strength remains relevant ALWAYS.
Quote from: Dar on October 26, 2018, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: roughneck on October 26, 2018, 05:29:49 AM
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.
Strength wins battles.
Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.
Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.
Black widow, batman, daredevil, bruce lee, ninjas, pretty much most martial artists really. All are primarily agility/technique/cunning based fighters, not strength focused ones. Your example, in my opinion, is bad Roughneck.
Well, I always thought that martial artists had weight classes in competition to protect the smaller competitors, but I could be wrong. Maybe it's to protect the big strong guys from the unfairly fast smaller ones.
i think batman is a lot stronger than you've given him credit for.
Quote from: roughneck on October 26, 2018, 07:12:28 AM
Quote from: Dar on October 26, 2018, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: roughneck on October 26, 2018, 05:29:49 AM
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.
Strength wins battles.
Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.
Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.
Black widow, batman, daredevil, bruce lee, ninjas, pretty much most martial artists really. All are primarily agility/technique/cunning based fighters, not strength focused ones. Your example, in my opinion, is bad Roughneck.
Well, I always thought that martial artists had weight classes in competition to protect the smaller competitors, but I could be wrong. Maybe it's to protect the big strong guys from the unfairly fast smaller ones.
Size in martial arts is more important than it is for fights with weapons. They don't have weight classes in fencing, or SCA events for that matter.
Quote from: roughneck on October 26, 2018, 07:12:28 AM
Quote from: Dar on October 26, 2018, 07:06:09 AM
Quote from: roughneck on October 26, 2018, 05:29:49 AM
There's a reason why football players are huge, combat sports have weight classes, and why comic book heroes are jacked.
Strength wins battles.
Strength impact on combat in Armageddon doesn't need to be changed.
Celves definitely could use some love and adjustment, but I think there's far more jarring obstacles to get your around than the race being physically weak.
Black widow, batman, daredevil, bruce lee, ninjas, pretty much most martial artists really. All are primarily agility/technique/cunning based fighters, not strength focused ones. Your example, in my opinion, is bad Roughneck.
Well, I always thought that martial artists had weight classes in competition to protect the smaller competitors, but I could be wrong. Maybe it's to protect the big strong guys from the unfairly fast smaller ones.
Yeah, this. Those are mostly fictional characters, with the exception of the one actor you put in there(who was, in any account, an exceptional example). But the Ultimate Fighting Championship(UFC) has sort of dispelled the notion that size doesn't matter. Unless you're using some style that is so obscure that no one has trained to be able to counter it(such as Royce Gracie in the early UFCs), strength matters a lot. Royce Gracie basically altered the face of MMA by using a style that was so effective if not countered, that every other future MMA fighter would end up having to train in that style. That's why brazilian jiu jitsu is so prolific now. But once they did, strength became super-important again.
Further, almost all of those characters you mentioned use indirect forms of combat to level the playing field. Batman has all sorts of tools and gadgets, and attacks from surprise, daredevil often forces his opponents into blindfighting situations with his MASTER level blindfighting skillz, ninjas poison your fucking tea and don't even bother fighting you, and/or slit your throat while you sleep.
I think a major fix for most of this would be to have encumbrance split evenly between two stats: Strength and Endurance.
Quote from: Cabooze on October 26, 2018, 01:36:28 PM
I think a major fix for most of this would be to have encumbrance split evenly between two stats: Strength and Endurance.
The two stats city elves get penalties to?
Quote from: Narf on October 26, 2018, 12:49:07 PM
Size in martial arts is more important than it is for fights with weapons. They don't have weight classes in fencing, or SCA events for that matter.
Modern fencing is really really far from mortal combat. All you have to do is touch, making size/bulk kind of a disadvantage. Even there, though, they do separate men and women.
SCA indeed doesn't have weight classes or gender divisions. However, it's openly acknowledged that it is not an even playing field. If you are short, if you are skinny, if you are a woman, you are absolutely at a disadvantage.
Quote from: Heade on October 26, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
Further, almost all of those characters you mentioned use indirect forms of combat to level the playing field. Batman has all sorts of tools and gadgets, and attacks from surprise, daredevil often forces his opponents into blindfighting situations with his MASTER level blindfighting skillz, ninjas poison your fucking tea and don't even bother fighting you, and/or slit your throat while you sleep.
Exactly. All of what you describe, should theoretically be what elves are so much better at, compared to the big brawny others. Due to agility and wits.
Only problem is that this is not the case, not with how skills work in Arm.
Which sort of makes this entire comparison to anything RL related to be invalid.
Quote from: Dar on October 26, 2018, 01:59:57 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 26, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
Further, almost all of those characters you mentioned use indirect forms of combat to level the playing field. Batman has all sorts of tools and gadgets, and attacks from surprise, daredevil often forces his opponents into blindfighting situations with his MASTER level blindfighting skillz, ninjas poison your fucking tea and don't even bother fighting you, and/or slit your throat while you sleep.
Exactly. All of what you describe, should theoretically be what elves are so much better at, compared to the big brawny others. Due to agility and wits.
Only problem is that this is not the case, not with how skills work in Arm.
Which sort of makes this entire comparison to anything RL related to be invalid.
Backstab
Sap
Archery
Poisoning
Stealth skill gang-ambush
Is there a point to the list of these skills? You're not implying that these skills are more effective with agility, instead of strength, do you?
Quote from: Dar on October 26, 2018, 02:08:41 PM
Is there a point to the list of these skills? You're not implying that these skills are more effective with agility, instead of strength, do you?
I'm just saying there's lots of options, although for some of those skills agility is arguably superior than strength.
Quote from: Heade on October 26, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
Further, almost all of those characters you mentioned use indirect forms of combat to level the playing field. Batman has all sorts of tools and gadgets, and attacks from surprise, daredevil often forces his opponents into blindfighting situations with his MASTER level blindfighting skillz, ninjas poison your fucking tea and don't even bother fighting you, and/or slit your throat while you sleep.
This sort of thing is... exactly what elves are good at.
Quote from: Nao on October 26, 2018, 02:42:07 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 26, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
Further, almost all of those characters you mentioned use indirect forms of combat to level the playing field. Batman has all sorts of tools and gadgets, and attacks from surprise, daredevil often forces his opponents into blindfighting situations with his MASTER level blindfighting skillz, ninjas poison your fucking tea and don't even bother fighting you, and/or slit your throat while you sleep.
This sort of thing is... exactly what elves are good at.
Yeah, that was my point. Elves are good at doing things in an indirect way, due to high agility giving them the ghostlike stealth capability that those various characters were known for. As others have said, if you're trying to win an evenly matched, fair fight with an Elf, you're doing it wrong. Poison their tea and slit their throat while they sleep.
This thread really just highlights how far we've come as a species.
I mean, shelter/water/food/security are sooooo far from my day to day concerns, that I can focus some of my energy to debate with other internet people about the representation of physical attributes in a combat system for a text-based fantasy land.
Humans won.
The fuck am I even reading? I don't care if Bruce Lee would win in a fight against Jet Li.
I just want a stat system that doesn't punish me for rolling shitty or picking the wrong combination.
I like the random stats. I like that all characters aren't numerically equal out of the gate, and that all characters don't have the same potential for "success" in everything.
I generally like the stat system as it is.
Elf strength isn't that bad... then again I've only played one elf and it was warrior/thief with a really good strength roll. I think even with 20+ days played on it his hits still bounced off of a rat but pretty sure he was unarmed at the time.
Encumbrance is really difficult to manage even with a really good strength roll so I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to manage on a sneaky/agile character with mid/low strength since it feels like it just cripples your agility.
Since I've only played the one elf and had the thief subclass I'm not even 100% sure what skills you get for playing c-elf but none of them surpassed the cap I got from picking thief, which even with very good extremely good c-elf agility feel pretty useless against anything with scan or watch.
In my opinion I think c-elves should get some decent racial skills like hide/sneak/climb/steal because if you don't pick a criminal class and be the stereotype rinthi c-elf you can't really do much code wise in the city and it feels like you are playing a single player game in the rinth without scan until you get backstabbed.
TL;DR: Half the classes c-elf can play don't give the skills you need to "elf" in the city without using karma. Low strength leads to being encumbered which hurts one of c-elf's main strengths, agility.
Just my perspective after playing 1700+ hours as a c-elf.
I'm fairly, very new.. But.. doesn't your damage improve over time with your weapon skill even when your strength doesn't change at all?
My current experience is this: Day 0, creature X, my few attacks that managed to land bounced off, got butchered to half my hp quickly and ran. 2 days played, just yesterday night, two of same creature at the same time; solid strikes that land at least once every combat round, neither of them could even touch me. And in those two days, I didn't seriously prioritize combat.
My character didn't get stronger. He got more skilled only. Thinking how the skills work; kick, bash, disarm, parry etc, most possibly the elf would be deadlier quite fast with the incredible wisdom he has.
So maybe there's a cap and an elf won't ever do "frightening damage" ever, I haven't played to experiment about it. So what? He'll do four "wound"s in no time, dodging the single crude strike the other person does. Higher wisdom and higher agility should catch up with high strength in no time.
Of course this doesn't help the fact that we're basically like D&D characters, murder-hobos who carry everything in their backpacks. Your elf wants to wash himself? No luck, there's going to be rain in Zalanthas before your elf can add a strigil and a jug of oil to his encumbrance. Or stonecarving tools, a single chisel and a couple of rocks to carve would make it drag his feet, most possibly. Instead of a raise in strength, maybe ask for more housing in 'rinth based on the strength of a city-elf?
This is true Zztri but also take into account that creatures roll attributes (and to a lesser extent train skills) the same as a player so not every scrab or whatever is exactly the same. While you might have been barely hitting day 0 and then getting in more solid hits on day 2 due to a little but of skill increase (and when you say it's been 2 days and barely any combat training then it really is just a smidgen increase) it could also be that the creatures on day 2 rolled poor agility and/or poor endurance and this were not as tanky as the ones you fought day 0.
This can be worse when it happens in reverse and you meet a sickly creature day 0 that your newbie breezes through so you think these types of creatures are easy and then you run into a buff one on day 2 that wrecks face!
Yeah I know. One day you kill the same creature with moderate difficulty but the other day a freak one appears to die in two solid strikes or quite the opposite, solidly mangle your limbs one by one until you realize you're gonna die and flee. But there's an obvious average, especially if you assess -v the creature and take its height, weight and age category to account.
But in my case, pretty, pretty good wisdom roll, I rolled.. My weapon skill got raised one notch, so did my fighting style skill. So I believe it was a measurable rise in skill.
Actually thinking about it, in a powerplayer's viewpoint, I'd love low strength. It's unrealistic to enter the hunting ground and kill 10 creatures, so you'd realistically fight let's say, three creatures at the absolute most?
For maximum "fail"s to raise the skill, low strength allows the target creature to stay alive longer. Of course, if I was the coder I'd give folks a "maximum failure that allows raise in skill" timer to dissuade powerplayers from hunting/crafting/sneaking all day and I remember reading something like that here in the forum. So some of the extended time wouldn't be useful in raising your skill but at least you'd ensure you'd hit the maximum with minimum amount of activity. More time for cooking emotes!
Being a newbie and a coward I don't know where I can hunt what and I already nearly died once because of my lack of OOC information. I'm not willing to risk my character to explore any more, I love him/her/them. So finding only a couple creatures and still fighting them for a looooong time possibly aided in my skill gain.
I think it would be useful to have some "bumping" of minimum strength, because I unwittingly realized you can REALLY gimp yourself.
That being said, there seem to be enough elf players even with the current setup soo...
Quote from: zztri on November 19, 2018, 07:02:20 AM
Being a newbie and a coward I don't know where I can hunt what and I already nearly died once because of my lack of OOC information. I'm not willing to risk my character to explore any more, I love him/her/them. So finding only a couple creatures and still fighting them for a looooong time possibly aided in my skill gain.
This is why the official docs, most of the new player threads, and discord all recommend VERY strongly that new players try playing humans that join the Byn. Because anyone can say "yeah jozhals are stupidly easy to kill." But not everyone remembers to mention "you have to be capable of seeing them first." Or "you have to not only be capable of seeing them, you also have to be capable of catching them."
Joining the Byn gives you *the* best first-hand experience at actually trying some of the things you're wondering about, with regards to combat.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 19, 2018, 09:35:53 AM
Quote from: zztri on November 19, 2018, 07:02:20 AM
Being a newbie and a coward I don't know where I can hunt what and I already nearly died once because of my lack of OOC information. I'm not willing to risk my character to explore any more, I love him/her/them. So finding only a couple creatures and still fighting them for a looooong time possibly aided in my skill gain.
This is why the official docs, most of the new player threads, and discord all recommend VERY strongly that new players try playing humans that join the Byn. Because anyone can say "yeah jozhals are stupidly easy to kill." But not everyone remembers to mention "you have to be capable of seeing them first." Or "you have to not only be capable of seeing them, you also have to be capable of catching them."
Joining the Byn gives you *the* best first-hand experience at actually trying some of the things you're wondering about, with regards to combat.
I have two daughters going to school and I'm +7 EST.. I doubt I'll find a sergeant in Byn. I had tried in my previous character.
Im against this.
I agree more with adjusting encumbrance than making city elves stronger. Below above average in strength for elves is extremely gimping, I think it does in more with carry weight and such.
I like the idea of adjusting endurance for everyone a little bit, but the current classes probably help with stats better than the old ones did. If you're out of ideas for a subguild you can always pick mercenary---- no karma, and it states right there that it helps you hold your liquor better, which is mostly endurance I think?
Tolerance is its own skill.
Elves don't need more strength.
If anything, they need a bit more clan support in the 'rinth
But they are already one of the strongest races.
You can't attack what you can't see
And their learning speed is already disgustingly fast.
Has there been a serious discussion about city elf clans and how to get one activated??? Thats all the race is really missing.
Quote from: titansfan on January 18, 2019, 02:40:30 PM
Has there been a serious discussion about city elf clans and how to get one activated??? Thats all the race is really missing.
I think staff has said they've been looking at it for a year + now.
Er.
They've said there are currently no plans to open city elf clans.
Playable city elf clans are an Armageddon joke at this point. They will never happen. Elves will ride before they get clans.
As a player just returning, that makes me sad...
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 18, 2019, 03:59:29 PM
Playable city elf clans are an Armageddon joke at this point. They will never happen. Elves will ride before they get clans.
Care to speculate the reason for this?
Lack of creativity.
Quote from: roughneck on October 26, 2018, 04:37:14 PM
This thread really just highlights how far we've come as a species.
I mean, shelter/water/food/security are sooooo far from my day to day concerns, that I can focus some of my energy to debate with other internet people about the representation of physical attributes in a combat system for a text-based fantasy land.
Humans won.
Are you saying that if city elves had higher strength they would have developed the technology to post online?
But in all seriousness, I think the most frustrating thing about elf strength isn't necessarily that it's a low range in general. I like that there are trade-offs between the races and I like that the races have weaknesses.
What sucks to me is that the stat rolling system currently makes it possible for your highest stat to still be pretty dang low, even if you prioritise, and when you get rolls like THAT on a city elf, that's when they become borderline unplayable.
Now that I'm an older, more casual gamer who can't devote so much time to skillgrinding, I'm really drawn to stat systems that aren't quite so punishingly random. If you can prioritise strength, roll an "average" age character, and still end up with a strength of 'average' on a city elf then it does feel like a pretty brutal uphill grind. It's mathematically unlikely, but it's happened to me more than once. (Not specifically on city elves, but the whole "prioritise x stat in an age group that isn't an outlier and still end up with 'average' or 'above average' as the result.")
But I suppose the changes I'd advocate for are changes to the stat system overall rather than city elves, so it's not quite on topic for this thread.
I think city elf strength doesn't suck quite so much as the specific act of rolling a city-elf with particularly average strength is just particularly noticeably bad. I can and have struggled through on a human with a spread of BA/Av/AA stats, but on a city elf I'd probably store because that value is low enough that it's just not a fun mission to try to overcome.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on January 18, 2019, 10:15:51 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 18, 2019, 03:59:29 PM
Playable city elf clans are an Armageddon joke at this point. They will never happen. Elves will ride before they get clans.
Care to speculate the reason for this?
Only staff could say for sure. Could be something lost to the wayside while other things got done. Could be reasons of too much consolidated power. Could be bad luck and timing. Maybe the staff who tried all had real life bite them in the ass.
I highly doubt it is due to lack of creativity.
Elven strength doesn't need to be increased, the benefits of strength in the upper end for dwarves need to be decreased.