Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PM

Title: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PM
Hi, I'm Moe.  I've been playing Armageddon on and off since 2002.  Lately it's been off, with a character I haven't played in over a year.

Here are some things that have dampened my enthusiasm for the game or feel like barriers to my return:

*Firstly, I'll say the biggest reason I've been absent has been life circumstances.  I've had a job that's been half travel and half work-at-home for the last year or so.  While traveling I'm too busy to play.  Working at home, I've had to avoid open-ended time sinks like Armageddon and other games to help maintain the discipline required to get things accomplished.  Not much can be done about that, but I may have a lull in a work for a few months and might be able to play again.

*Changes to the magick system.  I actually really like the subguilds.  I kinda wish there was still something like a main-guild mage, though.  Like a magick specialist who trades mundane skills for more spell variety (even if just two subguild's worth of spells).  I still really really dislike the loss of Elkrans, Drovians, and Nilazi.  I felt that the appeasement of "their spells will be recycled into other subguilds" was borderline insulting and entirely missed the point.

*Lack of information about the state of the game.  Some statements from staff and on GDB have suggested BIG COOL THINGS have happened.  That's great, but what?  If I created a character, they'd have lived through them.  I have no way to figure out if/how these events would have factored into my character's background, or even what to expect until after I've logged into the game and gotten a look at the tavern board.

*Closure of RAT thread and subsequent threats of moderation to people who even mention it.  I get that it was a moderation headache for staff, but I think the payoff of fun and enthusiasm that came out of some free-form game-related discussion was worthwhile.  The followup moderations and threats after it was locked was just stupidly authoritarian and really damaged my faith in Staff.


Despite lacking the enthusiasm to play, I do still care about the game and want nothing more for it to survive and prosper.  Staff, my fellow players, do with these perspectives what you will.  Anyone else in a similar situation, please share.

-Moe
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 04, 2018, 05:04:15 PM
Addressing the RAT thread: We now have regular use of Discord, where both players and staff, and even people who don't play yet - or used to play and don't anymore, all participate. We usually have triple as many people logged into Discord then there usually are in the game during peak time. It gets pretty random, but it's also about the game, at times. It's also where new players can come and ask questions, and either get them answered immediately, or pulled into the "helper chat", or DMed by a helper or staff, or informed that their question is in regards to a current in-game thing that won't be answered outside the game (that last one doesn't happen often but it does happen).

In other words - we have a LIVE RAT, so the GDB version of it isn't really much of a loss anymore.

I won't post about the rest of it, I agree in some measure with it. Plus your #1 reason for not playing is your own personal availability, and isn't anything anyone can do about (short of presenting you with a really well-paying part-time job, or handing you the winning powerball ticket - which is mine, sorry).
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 04, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PM
*Changes to the magick system.  I actually really like the subguilds.  I kinda wish there was still something like a main-guild mage, though.

I'm sort of there with you, except, what I think would be good is to keep the subguilds, but also add in some way(that isn't incredibly/crazy difficult to discover) for sorcerers to get the full gamut of spells sorcerer's used to get. Maybe even adding some sort of a quest spell at the end of their skill chain to unlock a "quest" to find a particular tome or something that can potentially lead to unlocking other spell groups. Since that's what sorcerer's are supposed to represent...people who actively sought out and learned magical knowledge, it doesn't make sense that, at 24 years old, or whenever they max out their starting spell set, they just cease their curiousity and desire for magical knowledge and power.

I'm not really lamenting the loss of full guild elementalists too much. But not having sorcerer's be able to achieve the big nastiness is a bit disappointing.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PM*Lack of information about the state of the game.  Some statements from staff and on GDB have suggested BIG COOL THINGS have happened.  That's great, but what?  If I created a character, they'd have lived through them.  I have no way to figure out if/how these events would have factored into my character's background, or even what to expect until after I've logged into the game and gotten a look at the tavern board.

I completely agree with this. I think it would be cool to have something OOCly accessible that outlined the large happenings of the world that would be considered common knowledge.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PM*Closure of RAT thread and subsequent threats of moderation to people who even mention it.  I get that it was a moderation headache for staff, but I think the payoff of fun and enthusiasm that came out of some free-form game-related discussion was worthwhile.  The followup moderations and threats after it was locked was just stupidly authoritarian and really damaged my faith in Staff.

I'm not familiar with that thread. Got a link?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 05:59:06 PM
"Random Armageddon Thoughts".  I think the thread has actually been deleted. 

It was started as just a place for fun little game-related thoughts that were probably too small to deserve a new topic. 

Sometimes real discussions happened in the thread and players weren't often good about spawning off a separate, focused post.  That's when mods had to step in and cut out posts and transplant them to a new thread.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Medena on October 04, 2018, 06:01:26 PM
Hi, I'm me.  I've been playing Armageddon on and off since 2003.  I came back to Arm about three months ago after an absence of about four years.  None of my absences have had anything to do with the game.  The most recent one was due to a relationship which eventually ended but it took me a while to decide to play again.  I've been having a blast since I returned.

In the interests of full disclosure I must say that I have always had a lot of faith and trust in the staff.  Sure, I don't always agree with all decisions but I understand that they have probably come out of much discussion amongst themselves with, no doubt, lots of varying opinions and perspectives.  They've all been players themselves and understand what players like and need.

I came back to an incredible amount of changes some of which I am still trying to catch up on.  In the years I was absent, I never even popped onto the website or the GDB even once.  So many cool things have been added to the game such as the drawing skill.  I was thrilled to see people in the taverns in Allanak and what seemed to be a thriving noble house scene because often over the years that had not been the case.  I was wowed by all the work that had gone into a re-vamp of classes and sub-classes and institution of the spendable karma system.  Most of all, I was impressed with the new transparency on skill trees and skill levels which is something people had been requesting for a long time. 

Some of Moe's points:

* Changes to the magic system.  I've not yet had the chance to try out the sub-guilds or, more importantly, assess how the overall role of magick in the game has changed.  Having played both an Elkrosian and a Nilazi, I don't mourn the loss so much I guess as some others might.  I found the latter -really- hard to play and wouldn't have chosen to play another.

* Lack of information about the state of the game.  This one has been a bit of a concern for me.  There's been stuff that has come up in the game that I think my character would have known at least a little bit about but I couldn't find any info anywhere.  Staff were helpful on one thing I put in a question request about and seemed to agree with my suggestion that the docs could use some updating.

* Closure of RAT thread and subsequent threats of moderation to people who even mention it.  I never posted in the RAT thread or, indeed, on the GDB much at all.  I'd have concerns too though if the reaction was as heavy-handed as described.  I'm sorry to hear that happened.

I think you should come back to the game Moe.   I seriously do.  You've got so much to gain and so little to lose.  I mean after the thousands of hours you've spent on Arm, what's another few hundred hours spent sitting in front of a computer totally immersed in nothing but text which makes you laugh, cheer, cry, groan, scheme, betray and avenge.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brytta Léofa on October 04, 2018, 06:17:15 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 04, 2018, 05:04:15 PM
Addressing the RAT thread: We now have regular use of Discord, where both players and staff, and even people who don't play yet - or used to play and don't anymore, all participate. ... In other words - we have a LIVE RAT, so the GDB version of it isn't really much of a loss anymore.

I loved RAT and basically don't use Discord. I'm theoretically glad that Discord exists, but I much prefer conversations at GDB speed, where I can participate without being constantly connected and attentive.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 06:23:55 PM
My feelings about the magick nerf (including the nerfs to magick not publicized on the GDB that would break rules about sharing game secrets) are well known.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PMThe followup moderations and threats after it was locked was just stupidly authoritarian and really damaged my faith in Staff.


The bullheaded decision to power through the terrible decision to lock the most popular thread in the GDB, where newbies and veterans alike got a fair shake to take the piss about whatever, is still a huge sticking point for me, as well.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 06:46:42 PM
On page 2498 of the thread Random Armageddon thoughts

Quote from: Nergal February 12, 2016
This thread is going to be locked the next time it has to be moderated for flaming/trolling. Way too tired of the quality of discourse on the GDB being dragged down by such garbage.

After many moderations, flaming and trolling, nearly a month later, on page 2545:

Quote from: Nergal March 10, 2016
Now that I'm not working I figure I should post an explanation for why this thread got locked, especially considering how popular it was to players.

- It was a mess, obviously due to the nature of the thread. Without a defined topic, good ideas were lost.
- It was the thread most reported to moderators. Obviously part of this is because it was the biggest thread, but a major part is because it became tacitly acceptable to shitpost and vaguely complain in this thread.
- The final straw was a series of posts that aren't in this thread anymore. They were moderated (taken out of the thread). This was after numerous attempts at moderating this thread in the past.

Ultimately, this is a discussion forum. That concept clashes with the ability to leave a poorly thought-out comment with no intention to defend or discuss it, which is what this thread provided. It had a good run, but it probably should have been locked a long time ago. It's locked now, and it's going to stay that way. It's not a reflection of, or a direct response to, the players that posted in the thread - it is part of an overall attempt to clean up the GDB and enforce posting rules fairly and equally without being overbearing.

You are certainly encouraged to discuss the game, but let's move back to doing that in a normal forum's way: by creating a new thread for a topic and keeping threads on-topic.

Thanks.

The playerbase was told of the expectations and they ignored them.  There is a certain amount of responsibility for the closing of that thread that rests solidly on community behavior.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 04, 2018, 06:58:19 PM
Generally when I don't play much, it is because of real life demands or burnout, which is also due to real life demands. I get stressed when I feel like the game is sucking too much time out of my day. Overall I mostly wish there was more room and patience for those who can't play 6-8 hours a day, 7 days a week, and therefore can't keep up with the full steam ahead plot & progress pacing of those who can (or just those who do, whether or not they particularly should be, heh). It's very easy to feel steamrolled.

So I have to carefully tailor my roles and plot engagement to make sure I don't get drawn in too deeply with those who might put expectations on me that I can't or don't want to fulfill.  I don't always succeed at that, because you are all fun to play with and there's usually a lot of neat stuff going on, but on the flip side, maybe if portions of the game culture were less frantic about "winning" and more focused on just relaxing and telling a story, that would help things there a little too. I'm not sure there is a solution for that, save maybe a cultural sea change of how we all approach the game.. which seems unlikely.

I'm just rambling at this point. I miss the days when I could just play whenever and however much I wanted, but they are long past, and I think in this aging playerbase that is true for a great many of us. Sometimes when I have to choose which game I'm going to play, I go with the one that I can put down and walk away from at the drop of a hat, instead of the one where a 30 minute login session turns into 3 hours because all of a sudden, a routine trip to the bazaar turned into an interrogation scene.

It isn't a bad thing or a good thing, it is just the nature of the game, and that is why sometimes older/veteran players will just decide to play it safe if they don't have a big block of time to dedicate. We will just putter around in WoW or with a console game so that we can be responsible adults.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:04:27 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 06:46:42 PM
On page 2498 of the thread Random Armageddon thoughts

Quote from: Nergal February 12, 2016
This thread is going to be locked the next time it has to be moderated for flaming/trolling. Way too tired of the quality of discourse on the GDB being dragged down by such garbage.

After many moderations, flaming and trolling, nearly a month later, on page 2545:

Quote from: Nergal March 10, 2016
Now that I'm not working I figure I should post an explanation for why this thread got locked, especially considering how popular it was to players.

- It was a mess, obviously due to the nature of the thread. Without a defined topic, good ideas were lost.
- It was the thread most reported to moderators. Obviously part of this is because it was the biggest thread, but a major part is because it became tacitly acceptable to shitpost and vaguely complain in this thread.
- The final straw was a series of posts that aren't in this thread anymore. They were moderated (taken out of the thread). This was after numerous attempts at moderating this thread in the past.

Ultimately, this is a discussion forum. That concept clashes with the ability to leave a poorly thought-out comment with no intention to defend or discuss it, which is what this thread provided. It had a good run, but it probably should have been locked a long time ago. It's locked now, and it's going to stay that way. It's not a reflection of, or a direct response to, the players that posted in the thread - it is part of an overall attempt to clean up the GDB and enforce posting rules fairly and equally without being overbearing.

You are certainly encouraged to discuss the game, but let's move back to doing that in a normal forum's way: by creating a new thread for a topic and keeping threads on-topic.

Thanks.

The playerbase was told of the expectations and they ignored them.  There is a certain amount of responsibility for the closing of that thread that rests solidly on community behavior.

Ok, so the thread is permanently locked? Do we permanently ban people for not-particularly-egregious violations of the rules?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 04, 2018, 07:06:52 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 06:46:42 PM
On page 2498 of the thread Random Armageddon thoughts

Quote from: Nergal February 12, 2016
This thread is going to be locked the next time it has to be moderated for flaming/trolling. Way too tired of the quality of discourse on the GDB being dragged down by such garbage.

After many moderations, flaming and trolling, nearly a month later, on page 2545:

Quote from: Nergal March 10, 2016
Now that I'm not working I figure I should post an explanation for why this thread got locked, especially considering how popular it was to players.

- It was a mess, obviously due to the nature of the thread. Without a defined topic, good ideas were lost.
- It was the thread most reported to moderators. Obviously part of this is because it was the biggest thread, but a major part is because it became tacitly acceptable to shitpost and vaguely complain in this thread.
- The final straw was a series of posts that aren't in this thread anymore. They were moderated (taken out of the thread). This was after numerous attempts at moderating this thread in the past.

Ultimately, this is a discussion forum. That concept clashes with the ability to leave a poorly thought-out comment with no intention to defend or discuss it, which is what this thread provided. It had a good run, but it probably should have been locked a long time ago. It's locked now, and it's going to stay that way. It's not a reflection of, or a direct response to, the players that posted in the thread - it is part of an overall attempt to clean up the GDB and enforce posting rules fairly and equally without being overbearing.

You are certainly encouraged to discuss the game, but let's move back to doing that in a normal forum's way: by creating a new thread for a topic and keeping threads on-topic.

Thanks.

The playerbase was told of the expectations and they ignored them.  There is a certain amount of responsibility for the closing of that thread that rests solidly on community behavior.

I think I agree with Staff's decision, despite the popularity of that thread. I think I'd prefer that topics have their own thread anyhow. That way, we can ignore the crap we don't care about without cycling through a bunch of pages of nonsense to find the ideas we do care about.

Discord is a good place to chitchat about topics, but because of the fact that it would require constant monitoring in order to see everything said there, and is also full of junk posts, any real discourse that begins there and has merit -should- find it's way to the GDB so that it can be considered by admins and the community at large.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:12:13 PM
Discord specifically makes statements temporary in a way that forums don't. Searching through the discord for old messages is a pain in the ass. Forum posts can be longform in a way that discord chatter can't. Just because Random Armageddon Thoughts was Random doesn't mean that it was thoughtless babbling. You've said yourself you don't know the thread, so it's really weird for you to make judgements on how it played in the forums.

We should consider everyone's opinion, though, but it's not like RAT was spitting flames that were nuking whole sections of the forums. Topics branched off of it all the time, if not every time.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 07:15:15 PM
There were egregious violations of the rules.  Multiple times.  Moderated.

Specific criteria were set forth for that thread, in order for it to continue.  They were not met, and it was closed.

Specific criteria are also listed for players, in order to continue to post on the GDB.  Those who do not meet them receive moderation/bans.

You may disagree with the rules.  You are still expected to follow them.  If you do not follow them, don't expect to not face consequences because you disagree with the rules.

Sorry for the digression, I only posted the quotes because a player mentioned not reading the GDB.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:16:37 PM
It's not like the whole community dictates the actions of the rule breakers, so I don't see why a platform of discussion (and pointless shenanigans) would be removed from the whole community because the actions of a few.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 04, 2018, 07:21:34 PM
Sometimes the whole community has to follow the rules to have something good.

Its like road stand fruit/vegetable stands with no attendant that work on the honor system.  In some communities they work, because everyone in the community of folks that stop abide by that honor system.  In some communities, they don't work.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:24:49 PM
Yes but you can lynch or shun people in real life communities.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Miradus on October 04, 2018, 07:32:26 PM

I can't think of much more destructive to the continuity of a MUD than Discord.

You're a new player, you want to know something about an in-game topic. But it got discussed to death on Discord last year and there's no trace of it left anywhere. You're cannibalizing forum posts which could be perpetual documentation for the next generation of gamers coming into Armageddon, for some nebulous bullshit with limited research capabilities.

It also asses me off when I type 'who' in game and see 12 people but I go over to Discord and I see 58 motherfuckers talking about teletubbies.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: mansa on October 04, 2018, 07:38:30 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:24:49 PM
Yes but you can lynch or shun people in real life communities.

What.

Quote from: Miradus on October 04, 2018, 07:32:26 PM
I can't think of much more destructive to the continuity of a MUD than Discord.

You're a new player, you want to know something about an in-game topic. But it got discussed to death on Discord last year and there's no trace of it left anywhere. You're cannibalizing forum posts which could be perpetual documentation for the next generation of gamers coming into Armageddon, for some nebulous bullshit with limited research capabilities.

It also asses me off when I type 'who' in game and see 12 people but I go over to Discord and I see 58 motherfuckers talking about teletubbies.

Discord is the same as Random Armageddon Thoughts, just speed up.


Personally, I'm glad that the memes and the bullshit has left the GDB and moved to Discord.   It shows that the GDB can actually have meaningful discussions rather than people trying to 'spruce up the mood because they perceive the GDB to be too serious, look at my puppy"
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:41:48 PM
Mansa, that's a pretty pretentious putdown of people who don't like being always-available on discord, or of people who don't want to use discord's pain in the ass search system, or who want to make a post or point longer than a few sentences or a wall of text that discord is going to format into abject ugliness and thus be passed over. I can search through a person's posts easily on the forums.

Forums and chatrooms are not the same thing AT ALL.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Miradus on October 04, 2018, 07:44:09 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 04, 2018, 07:38:30 PMDiscord is the same as Random Armageddon Thoughts, just speed up.


Personally, I'm glad that the memes and the bullshit has left the GDB and moved to Discord.   It shows that the GDB can actually have meaningful discussions rather than people trying to 'spruce up the mood because they perceive the GDB to be too serious, look at my puppy"

Alright, if you say so. I won't name names, but the last time I popped over to look at the Discord, all I saw was someone mocking some newbie's poorly written bio by posting snippets of it. And I thought, "Man, I hope that newb isn't watching while they wait to be approved."

I think Discord has only limited utility and immense potential for fuckery. It's like celebrities using Twitter. What good can come of this other than shooting yourself in the foot?

ETA: And I wish fucking Moe would return to the damned game already.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:52:26 PM
This is what happens when you give old people new stuff, they try to use it for everything. Look what they did with asbestos.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: mansa on October 04, 2018, 08:13:50 PM
Quote from: Miradus on October 04, 2018, 07:44:09 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 04, 2018, 07:38:30 PMDiscord is the same as Random Armageddon Thoughts, just speed up.


Personally, I'm glad that the memes and the bullshit has left the GDB and moved to Discord.   It shows that the GDB can actually have meaningful discussions rather than people trying to 'spruce up the mood because they perceive the GDB to be too serious, look at my puppy"

Alright, if you say so. I won't name names, but the last time I popped over to look at the Discord, all I saw was someone mocking some newbie's poorly written bio by posting snippets of it. And I thought, "Man, I hope that newb isn't watching while they wait to be approved."

I think Discord has only limited utility and immense potential for fuckery. It's like celebrities using Twitter. What good can come of this other than shooting yourself in the foot?

I'm equating the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread to the potential fuckery currently existing in Discord.  I'm saying if it returned to the GDB, it would lower the bar of acceptable posts on the GDB to include meme's and other celebrity postings.  You can definitely see the increase in quality postings on the GDB after it's been removed.   I'm sure there's data to correspond with the decrease in "report this post".

Quote from: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 07:41:48 PM
Mansa, that's a pretty pretentious putdown of people who don't like being always-available on discord, or of people who don't want to use discord's pain in the ass search system, or who want to make a post or point longer than a few sentences or a wall of text that discord is going to format into abject ugliness and thus be passed over. I can search through a person's posts easily on the forums.

Forums and chatrooms are not the same thing AT ALL.

Acceptable usage is based on the other published examples to follow.  If the community constantly posts about music, it becomes acceptable to post about music.   If you want to change what is acceptable you need to remove examples of what is not.  There are rules to follow on the GDB, and if a particular thread encourages people to break the rules, it should be removed.

I'm sorry if you feel that me saying memes and pictures of puppies are "bullshit" and that I'm putting people down for liking that.   I'm fine with Discord and I'm fine with the GDB.  I just wish a chat room wouldn't become a discussion board and a discussion board to become a chat room.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 04, 2018, 08:16:43 PM
I will say that as a player moderator the amount of 'report this posts' emails I got decreased exponentially when RAT closed. I still miss it, but I understand why it's gone. Discord has its pluses and minuses but I do like the casual camaraderie as opposed to the more formal GDB.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 04, 2018, 08:18:28 PM
Link the discord on the main page instead of the GDB then.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Malken on October 04, 2018, 08:46:53 PM
Hi. I play World of Warcraft.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 09:56:14 PM
I really don't want to re-hash the RAT argument here.

I'd rather hear from people in a similar situation to mine share their experiences and preferences, in the hopes that if some commonalities emerge then maybe we can work on addressing them.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 04, 2018, 10:11:40 PM
My biggest hurdles are mostly personal, and revolves around getting a character established in the game, and then, after that has happened, keeping interest when I'm established and there doesn't seem to be much going on.

It's like I'm sick of the set-up and initial grind, then I'm too impatient after shit has been set up to just wait for the opportunity to roleplay. I'll get a different idea that sounds fun and I usually store and then go through the cycle again... but I haven't been re-starting the cycle much lately.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 04, 2018, 10:14:13 PM
I can certainly echo you on points 3 and 4, Moe.

When I started playing Arm, the chronology page was pretty up-to-date with some earthshaking events. Specifically the appear of the black moon. It was recent enough that I could incorporate it in to a young character's background, and had some significant impact on my starting city of choice. It was a great hook to the game world. I think the Chronology page has failed hard at this in the last few RL years. Most of the events are related to Tuluk (closed) or the tribes (very small section of the playerbase). I don't know what the hell is going on in Allanak lately. What has my character grown up with? What should they care about? I don't know.

And because I'm always happy to re-hash the argument, I do miss the RAT. The discord is nice and all. But it's a real time chat-scroll that you have to be actively paying attention to to get the full benefit of. The RAT you could catch up with on your lunchbreak, then again at home. It was a spawning ground for other threads and general interest. It let people across widely different timezones communicate and play off of each other.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 04, 2018, 10:16:54 PM
Just to tack on to one of my points:

The most recent Chronology page entry for Allanak happend more than thirty fucking IG years ago.

Quote
c.1633 (Year 16 Age 22)
A rogue defiler makes an appearance in an Allanaki tavern. After exchanging jibes with a blue robed templar he is quickly escorted from the premises. Later that day a large crowd gathers in the Dragon Temple to witness the defiler's execution. Lord Eligeth of the Red, after turning the defiler to a pile of ash, is heard to remark that any such rogue will find a quick death if they dare approach Tektolnes' City.

There's been some events since then. I can't remember when the DBZ Fight was but really... that should be there at the least.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: tapas on October 04, 2018, 11:28:23 PM
Much of the recent information is on the city message boards. But I guess you can't access those without logging into a character.

I think it would be nice if a few select board posts were curated and added to the chronology page.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 04, 2018, 11:31:58 PM
I'm pretty vocal about my feelings on the changes of this game. For the first time in my 17 years I decided to stop playing because of a combination of the changes, how I feel about certain staff and ooc things.  It's the first time I've experienced this kind of burn out and lost faith in staff.

This is not the game I fell in love with and it might just be that I've outgrown it or can't keep up with it.  I'm sure I'll jones for it eventually, ginka is a jealous and possessive mistress and we know she must be fed but for now I've unhooked my IV and am watching from the sidelines.

In my perception we've lost some... a lot... of our grit.  The changes to the magick system, the removal of full sorcerors and nilazi are of particular concern since it happened post the plot my Borsail noble was a pawn in. I will not get into the things I've learned about that plot or the things I know about the players involved in it but I'm pretty certain that plot was the catalyst to that change.  It made the world less scary. 

I never thought I'd say this but... Tuluk closing.  It should have been changed. Not removed.

The changes to the crafting system.

The changes in Karma.

Staff shit. I won't get into details here either since I have respect for the system at large and most of the individuals. There are things I've learned via experience and former staff that have really disappointed me.

The theme has changed, so have the players, so has the consistency.  Things are "open to interpretation" now where once they were not.

The perma banning of movers and shakers who were verbal.

The retirement of certain staff.

The promotion of certain individuals.

Staff to player favoritism.

Staff Silence.


Thanks for starting this, Moe. I don't think it'll do anything, but I maintain hope.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Synthesis on October 05, 2018, 12:30:12 AM
I still play, but it's half-assed compared to years ago.  It's weird...I can play roles better because I'm more patient, more willing to lose, more familiar with the setting, etc. but I could give two shits about emoting or thinking most of the time.

But, I don't know.  I spent a year and a half gutting it out on a reeeeeaaallly boring PC (not throwing shade at the clannies...RPTs were great), and now I'm more interested in exploring the new class system than actually participating in the game in any kind of storytelling capacity.

Other miscellaneous gripes:

1) It's hard to avoid PCs you don't want to play around, because your only options are Allanak or the wilderness.

2) The Combat Grind.

3) Not enough time to play to devote in-depth effort.  Most of the time I have like 30-45 minutes tops, off-peak, and it's spent on #2, above...because nobody enjoys dying to scrabs.

4) Difficult to maintain connections when you're a part-time, mostly off-peak player.  If you go a RL week without logging in, everyone has moved on like your PC died or they aren't really Devoted To The Cause (whatever that may be).
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bogre on October 05, 2018, 03:19:13 AM
I've been much more absent over the course of the past 1-2 years as well.

1) I'm still a busy surgical resident, though much more time now than I had as an intern/junior. Despite that, there's a lot more things like research, studying, etc that jump into filling my time. Armageddon still serves as a nice break from time to time, but I've faded into playing much more fringe, character-actor parts.
- I think a deciding factor was trying to play a merchant-house role. I've been previously been good with combat / military roles, but I was dabbling in something I had less experience with and required a good deal of time input and wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I don't think I was able to give the role what was necessary, and I felt kind of ashamed to log in. It felt insurmountable, and so I drifted away. Fortunately the time has improved / ability to jump in more often has increased.

2) The big, -big- thing that's really decreased the speed at which I jump back into game is the loss of options. One, whilst I like the mage subguilds, the loss of Elkros, Nilaz (which I had really wanted to play, but never got a chance) and Drov (which I loved) were heartbreaking. Additionally, while I would probably lean towards subguild mages, I think the loss of full elementalists and full sorcs are also disappointing. The loss of play areas and clans further decreases the ideas / avenues for characters.

3) I'm not gonna lie, the loss of karma options (Whira and Krath) after having karma for -both- of them when they were level 4, and then gaining them again just to lose the higher tier Whira/Krath subs, is pretty disappointing. And was in the setting of a karma -increase- prior to the 3 tier system. The karma delay once used, too, would probably make me take a break if I wanted to play a certain char.

4) I've never really had issues or altercations with staff. I get worried when I see disgruntled ex-players blasting the mud, but also when I see staff or current players digging out trenches in return. I tend to be a much more moderative person, and would rather see people reconciled. So while that's not really an issue for me, I do worry about players who feel broken off from the game.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Armaddict on October 05, 2018, 05:03:51 AM
QuoteMy biggest hurdles are mostly personal, and revolves around getting a character established in the game, and then, after that has happened, keeping interest when I'm established and there doesn't seem to be much going on.

I think this is a really concise way of explaining a lot of back-and-forth arguments that happen about 'what's wrong with the game'.  Not all of them, but a lot of them. It's both internal and external, and messes with personal feelings and motivations.

I don't think this burned me out, but I do think it's a great thing to have said so neatly.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 05, 2018, 01:07:01 PM
I played from 2004 - 2013 initially - about ten years, almost.

Why I Left

My character got force stored while I was on vacation because I "wasn't playing enough."  I was in the process of getting married at the time and was super busy.  I got kinda fed up at that point and was in a place where I felt like the community was toxic.  I remember thinking, if I was playing D and D and these people were sitting around my table I wouldn't want deal with this kind of meanness.

This was back during Nyr days and there were so many smack downs happening and I just remember being at my limit.  I didn't mean to fall off but I could not bring myself to come back.  I lurked the boards here and there but lost all desire to play.

Why I Came Back

After five years I thought I would try it.  My dad died and I really need a way to just veg and pursue some escapism.  It was surprisingly easy to settle back in.  I immediately found the staff to be more hospitable and responsive.  The community seems to have taken on a healthier vibe.  (Or maybe I'm just less angsty.)

Changes I Enjoy

I like little changes like packs going on shoulders, more wear options, piercing options etc

I like that Luirs is now a place where the GMH struggle for power instead of it being Kuraci-ville, although it will still always some what be that to me

I like that the outside world feels a bit more challenging as far as critters go

I like the new guilds/classes I think it was a much needed change

I like the idea of combining the Templarate factions in Tuluk

I like certain NPCs like paymasters and coded professions that makes things a bit easier

I feel the staff culture has improved, to some degree - though there are some things I admittedly have inevitably disagreed with since my return but I do feel there is more staff interaction overall

I like the increased use of the Arena and the culture surrounding it

I like the game change updates posted by nessalin - patch notes are really nice

I like Discord

Changes I Don't Like

I don't like how noble marriage has been rendered almost useless

I don't like how now players can not ascend the ranks.  It was really cool having a red robe PC at one point.  There needs to be a sense of reward.  If nobles and templars can't really climb rank, what's the point?

I don't like that people with master crafting can't master craft, I hate it.  I see this as completely pointless.  Sitting around and crafting can already be so dull and a challenge to RP, let people's imaginations unfurl.  I want more cool items.  Let a helper or something volunteer.  I'll type uhm up.

I don't like how the cure system was changed - it feels broken and super confusing.

I don't like the frequency of the scorpions in the salt flats.  Unless you have brew it makes being out there almost completely untenable.  I think it's good to make salt grebbing more difficult but not impossible for newbies with limited resources.

I don't like magickers being taken away.  They were never my thing, and they definitely needed some nerfing - but I think they should be more readily available to people who do enjoy them.

I don't like Tuluk being closed.

And probably my biggest issue is that I don't like how hamstrung players feel.

You can't master craft even if you have master crafting unless you special app from the get go being able to do this.
You get stored if you ascend the ranks.
Certain roles are completely unavailable.
Blue Robes get stuffed into Ministries, kind of cutting them off from certain parts of their roles.

This is a game.  We should be encouraging trusted players that have proved their worth through ascension and the long lives of their PCs to lead plots.  There should be less staff involvement, not more.  This is a game, if you can't climb the ranks what is the point?  You want to feel a sense of reward for your actions.  Staff NPCs should not be the only ones occupying high level rewards.  It's completely un-intuitive to say your reward for playing a Templar, Agent or Noble long term and having many successes is to stay at your rank... or get stored.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brytta Léofa on October 05, 2018, 01:14:33 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 04, 2018, 11:31:58 PM
the removal of full sorcerors and nilazi are of particular concern

From my limited perspective, I'd like to see the full Nilazi tree returned as a subguild available only by special app. Treat 'em (basically) like Psionicists.

Everybody needs a tiny chance of experiencing that FUCK FUCK FFFFFUCK moment.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 05, 2018, 01:19:07 PM
Honestly, it's mostly the pace of the game that keeps it at arm's length for me now. I like to jump in and play, and I tend to lean towards being a 'leader' type of PC. I'm good at it when I have the time, and I probably derive the most enjoyment from the game when playing in a leader-type role. But the leader-type role also requires logging in often and checking up on people, making sure shit is going smooth, and getting involved. I just don't have the time for it anymore.

If I don't log in for a day or two, which happens often, people assume I'm dead, plots move on without me, and that's to be expected. It's the pace of the game, and my RL constraints simply don't provide enough stability to log in consistently at the same time each day, or even for long periods of time.

Once I'm out of the game for a week or two, I lose all desire to log back in and give the PC another go. I've been gone for too long, and I'm going to be in that 'playing catchup' phase for at least another week, and the cycle continues.

There's times where I have more free time and I'm able to play ArmageddonMUD, this just isn't one of them. So I don't necessarily think that veterans/players have given up on the game because something is wrong with it. I have my gripes, but they are small and few. Would I like Tuluk to be reopened? Absolutely, and actually if it were, I might have the drive to play again if briefly. But the reality is the game itself isn't the problem, I've simply gotten older, have more responsibilities, and can't keep up with the pace that ArmageddonMUD requires to really engage and derive the most enjoyment from it.

The game already had a very niche audience, and for many reasons those people have moved on to playing other games. Sometimes they return (like Bebop for instance) and other times they don't. I don't think there's much to do to entice people to return, they'll do so on their own impetus when they have the time and think of Armageddon and the spot it took up in their life. But for most, I just think they don't have the time to devote to Armageddon, so they decide it's best to lurk on the forums and stay connected in that way, but not play the game.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Harmless on October 05, 2018, 01:30:17 PM
I take lots of half year to yearlong breaks. I still enjoy the game and also agree with almost all of the positive notes Bebop mentioned. I also hate the customcraft limitations.

For example if you pick Minstrel you get master instrument making but will not be able to customcraft it. This seems nonsensical.

I think any mastercrafting subguild should be able to customcraft also.

I understand staff don't like the workload behind customcrafts but that uniqueness builds a culture that enhances everything.

I think there might be a bug with karma regeneration. Submitted a request about it last week.

I generally feel like the game is improving in stops and starts.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Kismetic on October 05, 2018, 03:53:18 PM
I putter around, sometimes, but it's like, once a week, if that.  For a good stretch, I played 3 hours a day regularly.  I feel the main reason is that my career took off, and I just lost the time.  Even when I had time, I felt mentally exhausted, and uninspired.  I also felt like Tuluk closing took some of my enjoyment away.  In particular, though, one reason I've lost interest is because it feels like you can't do anything.  For me, it was years of trying this or that, but always getting a polite 'no thanks'.  And then they moved the goalposts as far as what advanced roles you can try, or who can attempt them.  Like, after years of just a bunch of 'no', should I even try to attempt to special app a sorcerer?  I've never played one.  Never played a psion.  There's a lot of things I didn't play that were out there, and I saw as an avenue to spice up the game.  I feel those things are either gone or watered down.  There are other games out there where I can feel a small amount of accomplishment that follows my time investment, and Arm does not have that for me.  Other games may be less immersive, and they may not scratch the itch that Arm once did, but I don't feel like I'm wasting my time, either.  Of course, none of this is meant to point fingers.  I just feel the direction the game decided to take did not mesh with my desires as a player.  C'est la vie.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 05, 2018, 05:00:45 PM
Too much OOC/favoritism/nepotism on both sides, and I've allowed myself at times to be roped in. I don't talk to anyone about the game anymore.

I echo a lot of other sentiments here: there's a hard ceiling cap when it comes to achievements in game. It creates stagnation. Stagnant leaders cause underlings to burn out, too.

Some of the staff can be downright mean, even when I was staff, though I suppose from what other people've said, this has always been the case.

There is too much red tape, too much discussion that needs to be weighed in upon before any changes can occur, and for once the term 'trickle down' does apply.

Tuluk not being around sucks. Tuluk not having a solid, definitive end sucks.

I don't find Luir's multifaceted enough to support the sort of roles I like to play.

I haven't played solidly for about a year now. I have the desire to play just for a story, but I suppose I could write my own in the meantime.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Krath on October 05, 2018, 06:08:17 PM
Stealing Bebops Post because most of what she said is relevant.

Why I Left

I was banned during the Nyr Purge. Created a new account, played for another year, and when the glass ceiling for PC advancement came, I quit.

Why I Came Back

Dig and Path convinced me to come back after about 8 years?

Changes I Enjoy

I like little changes like packs going on shoulders, more wear options, piercing options etc

I like that Luirs is now a place where the GMH struggle for power instead of it being Kuraci-ville, although it will still always some what be that to me

I like that the outside world feels a bit more challenging as far as critters go

I like the new guilds/classes I think it was a much needed change

I like the idea of combining the Templarate factions in Tuluk, Lirathu OPness I both hated and feared.

I like certain NPCs like paymasters and coded professions that makes things a bit easier

I feel the staff culture has improved, to some degree - though there are some things I admittedly have inevitably disagreed with since my return but I do feel there is more staff interaction overall This this this.

I like the increased use of the Arena and the culture surrounding it

I like the game change updates posted by nessalin - patch notes are really nice

I like Discord

I love that there is a large off peak presence compared to when I left.

Changes I Don't Like

I don't like how noble marriage has been rendered almost useless

I don't like how now players can not ascend the ranks.  It was really cool having a red robe PC at one point.  There needs to be a sense of reward.  If nobles and templars can't really climb rank, what's the point? #1 Gripe here

I don't like that people with master crafting can't master craft. I hate crafting but I wholeheartedly agree with this. If your skill says master, but you cant master craft? What??

I don't like how the cure system was changed - it feels broken and super confusing. While I get the realism aspect...Holy shit, this makes me just say F-it, if I die from poison oh well.

I don't like magickers being taken away.  For me, this is almost tied with #1. Full Mages were both the scariest and most difficult, while at times the easiest to defeat. The level of fear of a full Sorc and mage was unprecedented. Why cant we have Full mages, and use the extended subguilds, the same way we have mage sub guilds. I think that for a FULL Sorc, that should be special app only, and subguild sorc should be max karma. 

I don't like Tuluk being closed. As a fellow Tuluk lover, I agree with this. Either destroy it or open it. Being a HUGE space that cannot be used or entered is pointless.

And probably my biggest issue is that I don't like how hamstrung players feel. 

You can't master craft even if you have master crafting unless you special app from the get go being able to do this.
You get stored if you ascend the ranks.
Certain roles are completely unavailable.
Blue Robes get stuffed into Ministries, kind of cutting them off from certain parts of their roles.


This is a game.  We should be encouraging trusted players that have proved their worth through ascension and the long lives of their PCs to lead plots.  There should be less staff involvement, not more.  This is a game, if you can't climb the ranks what is the point?  You want to feel a sense of reward for your actions.  Staff NPCs should not be the only ones occupying high level rewards.  It's completely un-intuitive to say your reward for playing a Templar, Agent or Noble long term and having many successes is to stay at your rank... or get stored.
[/quote]

See above in Bold and italics. Good Post Bebop.

PS> While I miss some of the old staffers, The new staffers are doing a great job.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Is Friday on October 05, 2018, 06:25:39 PM
I haven't felt really, truly invested in a PC in a long time for a variety of reasons.

1.) I think that the game has just lost its shiny feeling to me. I've played like 160+ PCs. Most of them were short lived throw-aways, though (only in the last 5 years have I slowed way down.)

2.) I cannot play a nilazi. I once stored mine because I played it too soon after a magicker character. I regret that decision.

3.) I cannot play a sorceror/psi anymore. I've been playing since 2007 and have inhabited many leadership roles. I've been given a lot of positive feedback from staff, especially the past few years. Yet here I am, unable to play a guild that imo should be open to me. I've been one of the most responsible players in the game for a long duration--often sending my PCs to die to others in situations where I could have stretched the bounds of realism to survive.

Actually--when I had 5 karma under the old system I did play a hidden sorceror who never discovered her powers--for several RL months. She was killed by her Templar boss for an unrelated reason. I had been patiently waiting for a plausible IC reason for her faith in Tektolnes to waiver and cause her to want to learn sorcery. Ah well, that's just ironic.

4.) Busy IRL. There are fewer casual roles available with a dwindling playerbase, I feel. You have far fewer opportunities to connect into plots.

5.) Staff are hiring the wrong players for some sponsored leadership positions but that's not a new problem--just a compounding jaded feeling over time. I understand that everyone has an opinion about what is "good". Oh well. Agree to disagree.

6.) There is no benefit in this game to moderate or non-violent rivalry and every time I see the flames of this being stoked it escalates to a rapid closure. It's either 0 conflict or MURDERFEST. I feel there is no in between and that bothers me.

7.) I was one of the players rejoicing at Tuluk's closure. I miss it because I'm wearing rose-colored lenses. I'd really like to play a bard or hunter up there.

8.) Removing hunters from GMH was a good idea to promote indie clans to be successful MMH hunting groups. But I don't see it being successful for anyone who has tried. There is no established indie hunting clan after, what... 5 years of MMH? The system is broken, if that's the case, imo. The MMH system does not support such low player counts. Maybe it would work if we were peak 80 players again.

With all that being said I feel as though I've had the best staff support as far as communication goes these past 3-4 years.

I've had some of the best roleplay experiences these past 3-4 years.

I just can't get into this game no matter how I try.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Drayab on October 05, 2018, 07:06:09 PM
I had a successful leadership character that had to be stored when my playtime was no longer sufficient to get things done. After a string of nobodies, I wasn't feeling it anymore, so I left for a while. Now I'm back after 1.5 years gone. On a lark, I peeked in and noticed the recent changes to the class system, and decided I'd like to give it a spin. I'm having fun so far, but as others have mentioned, it's not as easy to block off 3 hours of time as it was when we were younger. Nowdays when I log in, I tinker around with my skills for a bit, maybe bump into a person or two for some impromptu 'slice-of-life' RP, and I'm happy with that.

I do miss Tuluk. I used to play there almost exclusively. I loved the Bardic Circle. I wish there was something like that in Allanak.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 05, 2018, 07:33:43 PM


Haven't played a subguild class crafter up to this point, but I am fairly certain that staff said you can custom craft if:

1) you choose the custom crafter subclass, and your class allows you to craft anything.
OR
2) you choose a subclass that can master craft, like master jeweler or master armorsmith.

Was it not implemented this way?



Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: LauraMars on October 05, 2018, 08:24:46 PM
I've been trying to play. I have a character. But work is crazy intense at the moment and doesn't look as though it will let up soon, my personal/social life gobbles up the rest of my time...and that means some things have to be sacrificed. I have no bad feelings about Armageddon, it just can't be a priority at the moment.

I do notice that Discord seems to be changing the shape of game communities across the internet. Things like forums become less popular for players, especially newer players who are used to more rapidfire means of communication.

I am not saying a more chatroom friendly environment is a problem necessarily. It is just a new variable that must be accounted for in any kind of community building or maintenance.

I don't love it.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 05, 2018, 08:35:07 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on October 05, 2018, 07:33:43 PM


Haven't played a subguild class crafter up to this point, but I am fairly certain that staff said you can custom craft if:

1) you choose the custom crafter subclass, and your class allows you to craft anything.
OR
2) you choose a subclass that can master craft, like master jeweler or master armorsmith.

Was it not implemented this way?

It is, but some things are still not clear. Does the Ministrel extended subclass get to custom craft instruments, for example? Traditionally they have been able to, but mastery in the skill no longer means anything, and there's nothing that suggests they can in the helpfile. That's something that probably needs to be clarified.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akariel on October 05, 2018, 10:34:27 PM
I have moderated some posts from this thread regarding comments made about a fellow player that seemed to be inflammatory.

If you have an issue with staff, present or past, please submit a staff complaint.

If you have an issue with a player, present or past, please submit a player complaint.

The GDB is not the place to voice complaints about specific people or groups. The request tool is.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Malken on October 05, 2018, 10:39:08 PM
QuoteI don't like how noble marriage has been rendered almost useless

What does that even mean??
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 05, 2018, 10:41:52 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 05, 2018, 10:39:08 PM
QuoteI don't like how noble marriage has been rendered almost useless

What does that even mean??

It doesn't seem like there is any political benefit to drawing up a contract. It is mostly used for vnpc/NPC babies these days.

It doesn't do much for one's family or social status. It's really very neutered.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: LauraMars on October 06, 2018, 12:46:07 AM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 05, 2018, 01:14:33 PMEverybody needs a tiny chance of experiencing that FUCK FUCK FFFFFUCK moment.

The glorious FUCK FUCK FFFFFUCK moment is a potent argument for many things, but in my experience the best ones have come from well-played characters and the potential of scary-looking code, not the scary-looking code itself.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 06, 2018, 02:19:14 AM
Reading back to the first page, I think one of the points Moe makes would be the most efficacious to tantalize estranged Veterans looking to come back into the fold, or check out the game again.

-Split the Chronology Page (not in the past, what a load of work) but from now forward into region specific chronology.

-Assign Storytellers in their sphere of influence to make submissions for the chronology page for known rumors and events that have taken place in the last RL month. If nothing significant has happened, make a rumor around that, drop hints of red herrings on the horizon, rumblings in the deep, rumors of an ancient curse come to life.

-Post the Chronology on the Main Website.

There has always been a hint of 'Find out IC' when people are wondering what's going on with the game, or asking where the happening spots are. I think especially now, with a smaller and condensed player base, it behooves Staff to quantify and categorize what is going on in the game. Otherwise, from the outside looking in, there really isn't that much going on at all. Beyond that, making a PC to find out there really is nothing going on is an even worse feeling for a player coming back to the game. Having rumors or stories to tap into, to make into your background, to incorporate into your PC, encourages the narrative.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Shabago on October 06, 2018, 10:36:31 AM
Actively reading this, so you all are aware. By all means, continue to add further feedback. We're not having you all just talk at the wall, here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 06, 2018, 12:26:13 PM
Not estranged from the game, but I was estranged from Tuluk when it was open. Perhaps this might offer some general insight on the rest of the game, since my concerns weren't necessarily Tuluk-specific.

The "find out IC' culture. I agree, in general terms, that people really should find stuff out IC. But when you're new, it's very difficult to do unless you really stand out and are brought in to plotlines by others. You can't go after something you know nothing about.

In regards to the chronology idea and other "IC info posted outside the game" idea - this could be very helpful for new players, and even for veterans, and people who fall between the two. To have at least some general idea of "stuff that's going on" in a location.

Example - and this would be on the main website, with a link to the list that would expire, with older news items being archived to an available archive page.

>Tavern board news, current week/2 weeks/month, summary.

Clans actively hiring: Kadius (Amos, Talia). Salarr (Joe, Sue). Oash (Second Superior Excellent Lord Heir of Ocotillo Greatness Andy, aide Samahamalama)

Clans known to be actively and currently involved in some kind of really active and known plots, with people dying and other people clamoring to get involved: Salarr, Fale

Mysterious things going on outside Allanak. Believed to be occurring in the general vicinity of "somewhere east of the merchant gate", at unspecified moments. Buyer beware.

Labyrinth: there are some blips on the radar, somewhere in there.

Luir's Outpost: several blips, some coming from visitors. Find Garrison Malik or Kurac agent Salosa for details.

Some breed's been stirring things up in the Pah.

Three characters who have been playing regularly for at least the past month and at most the past six months, came from the Hall of Kings to Morin's, and are still alive. They may or may not still be in or near Morins but that is where they came from, originally.

There are at least 3 mages in the game. (without specifying whether or not they are gemmed - the staff could include either or only one of the two in their count, so no one starts going on ungemmed hunts all of a sudden)

The SLK has at least 2 active members.

-------

You wouldn't mention which clans are "dead," which clans have no active members, which are struggling to exist. You would only highlight what IS going on (not what is NOT going on). That way, people looking to get involved in existing plots, know, at the very least, where to start "finding out IC."
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: only_plays_tribals on October 06, 2018, 12:56:40 PM
I am totally digging the "current events" section idea.

We all post rumors in clan boards and tavern message boards which is still finding out IC with "hints"

Having some way to replicate "things you might have found out" before making a character would be fantastic.

The bulk of the work would be determining how to deploy it with nominal effort on the part of staff.

Clan GDB's could have a forum for posting such "public rumors" and they could be copy pasted.

Storytellers could insert little teasers about ongoing things or notable events.

The above actually sounds like a contest to me almost, how much exciting shit can you get into and end up "in the news"

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Aruven on October 06, 2018, 05:09:41 PM
Thanks for starting this, OP.

It's funny using the term veteran. I think just time reflections considered i'd make that list (jumped in circa 2003), but I've never considered myself some guru or old time player. I do reserve that name for other players who get talked about in that way: People that were being called veterans when I first started playing. People and staff who just really knew how to tell a story and set the bar high.

I've taken breaks at various points for a long time. A couple years in-between. The first real break I took for a long time was when Tuluk closed. It just left salt all up in my mouth and nostrils in too many ways with how everything went down. The game pace from storytelling to flashy shows in the moment (imo) and the removal of content from the game has been interesting and at times hard to watch. My gripe isn't really even with magick, or classes. I think about every single plot that got dropped and lost when Tuluk closed. Each faction, house. And not just what that meant for northern players, but anyone else in the world or a clan in the known that had some sort of story arc. It just changed everything, and the implementation might have not been so harsh if it was done well and wasn't sat on. At a minimum, leaving such a huge piece of the game in limbo story wise and code wise and expecting everyone to just be inspired to move on and continue playing in a seemingly smaller world and not fall off was kind of a bold hope.


I could go on and on about tuluk, but the seeming truth to me there is that it just needed some love and attention. The clan documentation for most places was as far behind and out of date as it is in still open clans in the south. The shift from dedicated staffers to having a staff rotation to prevent IC bias of one clan has its PROs and its CONs.

- Tuluk

- Having a vision for what the story of this game is and how content removal and limbo plotlines hurt the entire game world storywise.

- I like the current events concept as I've seen it played around with so far here, so long as it doesn't out plot stuff obviously.

Beyond OOC information, hell, IC information is needed. It's been mentioned more than once things are becoming so blurry that sometimes it's hard to get details about how your character grew up and what they know. I mean, I asked a few different staff about what a commoner would know IC about the dragon. This has changed SO massively with the change in players and staff it is worth using as an example. Not only did staff feedback differ from : "No, you're PC would know nothing", to "Depends on where your PC is from", but for me that's a huge shift regardless, because if you played the game 10 years ago, it was acceptable to play out being aware of the Dragon's story to some extent and knowing the fear behind it. So the players and staff (on way more topics than just this one) kind of have some work to do on deciding where exactly the game world stands. Maybe the staff are really clear on this and see it all going according to plan, but chatter I see constantly and now this thread of longtime players posting makes me think I'm not in the crazy box by myself feeling like the flavor got salty and stale.







Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 06, 2018, 05:11:38 PM
Another idea to help, especially with regards to people whose play times often don't connect with others:

Start doing average peak time measurements.

The data being measured: what time was it when the highest player count was logged in yesterday? If not an exact time, at least a window showing the time frame during which the highest player count, +/- 2, was logged in.

Example report:

Sunday 10/7: Average 63 players between 8:30-10:35 Server
Monday 10/8: Average 49 players between 8:18-9:57 Server
Tuesday 10/9: Average 48 players between 8:52-10:35 Server
Wednesday 10/10: Average 39 players between 9:03-9:16 Server*
Thursday 10/11: Average 51 players between 9:17-11:25 Server**
Friday 10/12: Average 53 players between 8:40-10:10 Server
Saturday 10/13: Average 57 players between 9:14-10:55 Server

Key:
* Game crash on normally slow night. Average shifted to 37 after that, til 11:45.
* Normally lower log in night but there was a multi-clan RPT which boosted the numbers. Compare with last week, 41 between 8:50-9:35

Translation: What this means, is that prior to the starting times, there were fewer people logged in on average in any given hourly segment. After those times, the numbers also dropped. During the time frame listed, there were rarely 2 fewer or more than the average number listed.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Aruven on October 06, 2018, 06:10:08 PM
I wanted to add community.

Having Fnord and whomever help him throw together a google catalogue of playerphotos, people hosting APMs and meeting up at Dragoncons, Discord (i'll throw it in) , player submission logs, writing, stories, song, culture.
All that stuff is huge. A big part of what I've noticed is that when you create a story with a bunch of people, it really hurts to lose even one of them. You just lose a little bit more of that ability to give the same life to scenes, ideas, flavor. I've been pretty lazy about it, but i'm all about supporting that stuff whenever there is a chance too and I think it's good for retaining players in the long time. Low key shout out to the organizers of those things over the years, especially the seekrit santa coordination.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: CodeMaster on October 07, 2018, 12:06:55 AM
Quote from: Veselka on October 06, 2018, 02:19:14 AM
-Split the Chronology Page (not in the past, what a load of work) but from now forward into region specific chronology.
I like this idea and was thinking something similar.  Split it up, show the current "season" of events (and let people view the past seasons with some kind of pagination), and maybe use it as a tool storytellers could use to plan story arcs, like you would seasons of a show.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Strongheart on October 07, 2018, 10:00:47 PM
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 07, 2018, 11:18:36 PM
Quote from: Strongheart on October 07, 2018, 10:00:47 PM
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?

I'd need to know more about what the policy is on rotations to give an answer to that. Currently, I don't know.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: mansa on October 08, 2018, 12:20:44 AM
I stopped playing around mid-2010 when my guild leader assassin character (Mal, the man with marilla-coloured hair) died.  I was attempting build stuff in a certain area in the game.  This was before the player created clan stuff got implemented. (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51316.0.html)

I attempted to get room descriptions changed.  Typo's fixed.   The guild backdoor was just a tarp and I got a replacement door.  I wanted it installed and waited.  I saw that some areas were saved with items in the room, so I could always go there and get a free item.  I saw some NPCs that were saved without weapons on them, and people used to kill them for their gear.

I basically saw the world -stop- and be paused, while "armageddon 2.0" was hanging in the background being "worked on", even though Sanvean had retired and there was zero notification about what was going to happen.  This is a MUD.  You can create a brand new world and all you need to do is write descriptions.  This model is designed for flexibility and ease of change.  There are -no- -graphics-.  I didn't want to play in a static world.  So I stopped.


I would peek in sometimes, and see delightful posts like this:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49803.0.html

Nessalin created this post:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.0.html
which I subscribed to immediately.  I would watch the game world slowly change and become something different than what I had been playing for the past 15 years.  This thread kept me coming back.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47703.0.html was the introduction of player moderators, which means the players have more say and control in the community

Guilds started to change!
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48060.0.html

More changes from a brainstorming thread:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49141.0.html

Then some shit happened:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50667.0.html


It was at this time that Path reached out to me on Facebook and said - "play Armageddon please?"

In real life, I moved cities, got promoted, became 'corporate' and was doing a 9-5 job in an office.  I had free time.  I thought that the written world has changed enough so that when I re-entered it, I would be lost again in the mystery.


And some of it was changed.  And some of it was exactly the same.






I'd like to say that my observance of the ArmageddonMUD story is one of a giant amoeba, that slowly moves from piece of food to piece of food, being pulled in all directions until someone finds a nugget and the game shifts slightly.  I feel like there is no director or game master, that there is a promise that you can accomplish anythingsomethings as long as you can convince someone to go along with you as long as it doesn't take a lot of time investment.

That if you don't have an idea, you're going to just be shifted along slowly until someone has some piece of gold and we all shuffle over to that.

I feel that there isn't a 2 year plan for ArmageddonMUD, or a 5 year plan.  It's all become -players make the ideas- and -staff gets to play along with the players-.  However, the players can't make the game change, the staff makes the game change.  Nobody knows who the boss of the overarching storyline.   And staff are afraid to step on toes, to interfere with characters, to have someone say, 'you did something fun with group x, but i'm in group y so that's favoritism'.

What I want
I want to build empires and destroy empires, to have enemies and lovers and to be killed and to start all over again with a new characters.   I want to explore the unknown and develop trade routes and make new roads and clash with rat people and bird persons.  I want single player quests to do when nobody is around and multi player quests when everybody is around.  I want to be taken for a ride and I want to make a difference, and I want my differences to be destroyed by someone else and forgotten in the wastes.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: wizturbo on October 08, 2018, 03:35:16 AM
I suppose I feel that with all the progress that's been made on Armageddon over the last few years, it's been 10 steps forward and 20 steps backwards. 

So much has been added to the game over the last 5 years...  But so much more has been taken away.   Maybe it's nostalgia talking, and those things I loved that are now gone weren't as great as I remembered them to be...  I cannot say with certainty.  All I know is I'm not interested in playing very much.  I hope that changes in the future.



Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 07:27:04 AM
Quote from: Heade on October 07, 2018, 11:18:36 PM
Quote from: Strongheart on October 07, 2018, 10:00:47 PM
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?

I'd need to know more about what the policy is on rotations to give an answer to that. Currently, I don't know.
For what purpose?

Do they rotate every so often? Seems certain staff have been presiding over the same clans for months/years until recently.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 08, 2018, 09:31:22 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 07:27:04 AM
Quote from: Heade on October 07, 2018, 11:18:36 PM
Quote from: Strongheart on October 07, 2018, 10:00:47 PM
What do you peeps think about staff rotations being every six to nine months rather than the current three?

I'd need to know more about what the policy is on rotations to give an answer to that. Currently, I don't know.
For what purpose?

Do they rotate every so often? Seems certain staff have been presiding over the same clans for months/years until recently.

Yeah. Every three months has never been the case.

We need different bodies and minds in different clans to keep perspectives and stories fresh.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Olafson on October 08, 2018, 10:24:22 AM
Thought I would give my perspective on things.

Many of you probably won't recognize me since I don't post much on the GDB unless I was part of a clan, and I am not on Discord, nor will I ever be. 

I am nearly 50 years old, and have been playing for 25 years.

I leave this game for a while after every bitter death (usually stupid) and come back usually every summer or right before the summer since as a teacher it is part of my relaxation.

Obviously I believe in this game and those who have put so much time into it.

Some comments on some things:

Players On Line
The number of people who are playing is definitely a worry, but as we are hearing on this thread, many people come and go due to real life.  But if you build it, they will come.  This will fix itself (cross-fingers) and I don't think it is about PK.

Karma
I have had top karma since it was brought in.  I could choose sorc and psionicist whenever I want.  I hate that these are now taken away.  My favorite thing was to choose a sorc and have it lie dormant on my character.  Slowly letting it manifest.  Sometimes this worked, sometimes I never even got to play it. 

This line particularly pissed me off:
Quote5) If you are approved for a sorcerer or psionicist character, you will be expected to use the skills that make the role a limited one.
Totally against how I like to play these characters so I basically disappeared for a year. 

The current system of karma regeneration is a real turn off too.  Why do I have to wait 4 months to get back all of my karma?  Why am I being punished?  Why are we so against having so many high karma'd characters?  Usually I jump back and forth, but lots of times I play this game for the challenge of the type of character.

That being said, non-karma'd characters are a lot of fun to play as well but really, four months?  I can't guarantee I'll be alive in four months.  I'm almost 50!!!  I kid, I'm in perfectish health.

GMH Changes
I actually like these for the most part.  I was playing a character in the Garrison when the changes happened and it was a very interesting dynamic as those of us in Kurac were joined by Salarr and Kadius.  Was a lot of politics.  It has a lot of potential for clashes and I am not sure what is happening currently with that, but the potential is there.  Great idea.  It would be nice if each house could still retain their own PC guards or hunters, maybe a very small limit. 

Class Changes
I like these changes, though I admit I am currently playing my very first character with these changes and I am very happy.  I don't find there to be a combat grind at all and with my new character I am able to experience the world a lot easier and faster than I had before.  Very enjoyable. 

Magick
I already mentioned above about Sorcs being special app and how I hate it.  I don't like how Sorcs changed over the last few years as well.  Well, I shouldn't say that.  I liked how there is a focus, but I do believe that after they reach the maximum of that focus (which I had a few years ago) then they should be able to research and get another focus.  Maybe by finding another sorceror of a different focus and learning, or killing them and absorbing their ability (aka Heroes).  Perhaps this does happen, I don't know.  But would be nice.

Magick as a subguild is fine and helps with the interest in these characters so they aren't just sitting around practicing spells.  The loss of Drov/Nilazi/Elkros is fine, though of the group I only played Nilazi much, and it was a lot of fun being Nilazi.  I think of the three, Nilazi still has a definite place.  By the way, if Drov and Elkros don't exist, can we get rid of them from the Naki Quarter?  Or is it that they do exist but just no longer as player options?

Lack of Information
This does not bother me.  Keeps up the intrigue.  I would hate to know that there are five current magick users.  People would be trying to guess who they were.  Knowing already the skill tree of the new guilds is something I have to adjust to.  Takes away a lot of the thrill when a skill branches.  But, people like knowing, so that is fine.  Should hopefully bring in more people.

Tuluk
The loss of Tuluk does suck, especially the part of closing it up.  I've played through the rebellion and occupation of Tuluk.  I've played many characters, both noble and templar, in the old Tuluk.  The culture was so different from Nak, it did offer an alternative.  And I would switch from north to south after each character death so I wouldn't have any past dealings.  Was interesting.  I did always enjoy Nak more, but one of my points here is that I like having space so that I can jump from one character to another and not have previous knowledge.  Start fresh.  I think we lose that with Tuluk gone and there isn't as much to keep characters in the north.

That being said I get the concept of consolidating the player base.  The problem is that we need conflict and the north vs south was fantastic.  It still exists a bit today, but...

Plotlines
Petty plotlines have always kept the wheels turning in Arm.  PKing for a reason, whatever it is, let it happen.  Conflict, conflict, conflict.  If you side with a faction, be ready to suffer the consequences. 

I was in Kurac at the time of the Copper Wars so I didn't experience the war like others did, but it definitely had the player base hopping.  And the worry we had every time a Naki group got close to Luir's was a lot of fun as well.  Diplomacy was the name of the game.  Same thing when I was a gypsy before the volcano switcheroo.  Very tense.

I've missed out on many plots over 25 years and been involved with a lot of others.

I do think things are in the works and we're going to see something soon.  I'd like to believe that anyways.

Summary
I don't interact with the imms that much, I hate doing reports.  I never used think and feel or bio enough so I'm not sure if they always know what I'm doing or am up to.  But everything I have ever gotten from them is that they are trying to be helpful.  The work they are putting in on the code is fantastic.

We're not always going to agree with decisions, but this game is so good, please don't give up on it

I am expecting to play this game for another 25 years.

Olafson
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: crymerci on October 08, 2018, 11:46:46 AM
Players Online/Peak Times/Pbase concentration

The population is way down from what I remember, and it shows. Also, for all the talk about the aging playerbase, peak times seem to have shifted later.

The number of people logged into the Discord server seems to be 3-4x the number logged into the game, and from this thread there seem to be lots of people who could be playing but aren't. So the community is large enough, but people aren't playing.

Add in the closure of Tuluk and you are looking at either playing a Nakki or spending a lot of time alone. Add in the usual 1/3 of clans who don't have a strong, active leader. And you end up with very few (clanned) options if you want to have people to interact with. If you're also trying to avoid interacting with the people your last character knew, you've got some serious acrobatics to perform.

Forum Search

For better or worse, most/best/new information seems to be located on the GDB rather than in the web docs. Attempts to search the forums seem to result in the whole GDB freezing for everyone. Even if a search attempt goes through, it's hard to find the information you need and be confident that it is current, complete, and accurate.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akaramu on October 08, 2018, 12:10:41 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PM
*Changes to the magick system.  I actually really like the subguilds.  I kinda wish there was still something like a main-guild mage, though.  Like a magick specialist who trades mundane skills for more spell variety (even if just two subguild's worth of spells).  I still really really dislike the loss of Elkrans, Drovians, and Nilazi.  I felt that the appeasement of "their spells will be recycled into other subguilds" was borderline insulting and entirely missed the point.

This is still my #1 reason for not playing. Also, I dislike what the change did to the ingame culture of how people perceive and act around magick. It encouraged min-maxing to get JUST the right skill combinations and skill grind opportunities, solo hunting (to grind those combat skillz because the Byn won't take Gemmed, yo), more or less depopulated the Elementalist quarter (because it now makes soooo much more sense to play ungemmed), less fear of magick because people are OOCly aware of how new-ish Gemmed are now weaker than ever and have trouble finding ways to train their mundane skills because almost no clan will hire them, etc etc.

I could make a bit of time to play. I don't because I feel it would be pointless. Armageddon MUD never has been, and never will be a casual friendly game, especially not during offpeak. I don't like the mundane combat system and never could pull off outdoorsy types because I have literally no sense of direction (in real life AND ingame). If I logged in for a couple hours here and there, I'd never form the social connections required to see and experience interesting stuff(tm). I've grown so tired of solo RPing and idling in bars.

Btw, full guild elementalists were the perfect role to play casually.  >:(

Quote from: wizturbo on October 08, 2018, 03:35:16 AM
I suppose I feel that with all the progress that's been made on Armageddon over the last few years, it's been 10 steps forward and 20 steps backwards. 

So much has been added to the game over the last 5 years...  But so much more has been taken away.   Maybe it's nostalgia talking, and those things I loved that are now gone weren't as great as I remembered them to be...  I cannot say with certainty.  All I know is I'm not interested in playing very much.  I hope that changes in the future.

Also this. Sooo many things that I enjoyed were taken away and I don't feel there was much added at all. At least not that I've seen, or that interested me.

Also, the karma changes. I've been playing this game on and off for something like 15 years. I got my last karma point in like, 2011 (?) from Morgenes, who commented that I should have had that much long ago. I had enough to be able to spec app psionicists, and I think I played an AMAZING psi not that long ago. Now I have 2 karma... as much as people who've been playing for a small handful of years. I don't think I can even spec app psionicists anymore.  :-\

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 08, 2018, 12:32:45 PM
I've seen an alarming number of people suggest that karma regeneration is affecting player numbers. I actually am a big fan of karma regeneration and I think we do need something like that to limit the number of mages running around, especially now that you can basically just become a super buffed warrior (or heavy combat, whatever) by picking a mage subclass. Even though I'm a shameless (okay a little bit shameful) serial mage player, we don't want the default to be to pick a magick subclass.

And maybe a few people are put off by not being able to play a bunch of mages in a row, and I understand that because I have a thousand mage concepts buzzing around in my head. But I think the main problem is extended subclasses. People want to be able to keep up with the Joneses, and they feel they're hamstringing their characters if they commit to a regular subguild. And we can say all day that this is an unhealthy attitude to have, and it's wrong, and they "shouldn't" feel that way and they "should" be happy with regular subclasses because it's not all about coded skills. But the truth is that people feel this way anyway, and they always will, because it's human nature. If player numbers are being hurt because people are waiting for karma to regen so they can play subclass slipknife instead of subclass thief, then maybe it's something that needs to be looked at. Maybe we just need to have one kind of subclass, whether that one kind ends up being closer to the higher cap of extended subs, or the lower cap of regular subs. I('d tend towards the lower end, myself, especially since the main guilds have such high caps in everything these days.)

Now, I'm not saying just get rid of karma regen, because then you just have an unfair situation where veterans never have to touch a regular subclass again, while new players are resigned to being less competitive no matter how long their characters live. And I don't think that's a good solution either.

In theory I like the idea of karma regen encouraging a mix of extended and regular subclasses, so that you're never sure just how good someone is at a given skill, but in practice it seems to be encouraging people to wait out the timer instead. I do think it's something that needs to be looked at.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akaramu on October 08, 2018, 12:40:38 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 08, 2018, 12:32:45 PM
I've seen an alarming number of people suggest that karma regeneration is affecting player numbers. I actually am a big fan of karma regeneration and I think we do need something like that to limit the number of mages running around, especially now that you can basically just become a super buffed warrior (or heavy combat, whatever) by picking a mage subclass. Even though I'm a shameless (okay a little bit shameful) serial mage player, we don't want the default to be to pick a magick subclass.

I'm personally okay with karma regeneration. I'm absolutely not okay with now having 2 karma, no karma gained since 2011 (especially considering that one psi I played), and not being able to even spec app psis or sorcs anymore. Honestly, I think I'm one of the most trustworthy players staff could wish for. I've never, not once in 15ish years, exploited game code, abused OOC knowledge or PKed anyone for questionable reasons. I communicate with honesty and always send in my reports. The worst thing I ever did was to forage salt without emoting for like 15 minutes. A staffer once told me that I use thinks / feels better and more often than almost any other player. I always solo RP when alone, and have at times been rewarded with echoes and animations, but no new karma points. I've always played for the roleplay, not for the skillz. I mudsex like once every 2 years.  :P

Yet I can't play psionicists anymore.  >:(
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 08, 2018, 01:01:31 PM
Are you certain you cant, Akaramu? I mean right now. Everyone, even karma 3 need to spec app for sorcs/psis.  I thought I read somewhere that karma 2 can spec app psies/sorcs. 

Only thing is there is a limit on how many sorcs/psies can be in game at the same time.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: mansa on October 08, 2018, 01:01:57 PM
Quote from: Akaramu on October 08, 2018, 12:40:38 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 08, 2018, 12:32:45 PM
I've seen an alarming number of people suggest that karma regeneration is affecting player numbers. I actually am a big fan of karma regeneration and I think we do need something like that to limit the number of mages running around, especially now that you can basically just become a super buffed warrior (or heavy combat, whatever) by picking a mage subclass. Even though I'm a shameless (okay a little bit shameful) serial mage player, we don't want the default to be to pick a magick subclass.

I'm personally okay with karma regeneration. I'm absolutely not okay with now having 2 karma, no karma gained since 2011 (especially considering that one psi I played), and not being able to even spec app psis or sorcs anymore. Honestly, I think I'm one of the most trustworthy players staff could wish for. I've never, not once in 15ish years, exploited game code, abused OOC knowledge or PKed anyone for questionable reasons. I communicate with honesty and always send in my reports. The worst thing I ever did was to forage salt without emoting for like 15 minutes. A staffer once told me that I use thinks / feels better and more often than almost any other player. I always solo RP when alone, and have at times been rewarded with echoes and animations, but no new karma points. I've always played for the roleplay, not for the skillz. I mudsex like once every 2 years.  :P

Yet I can't play psionicists anymore.  >:(

Side note - Have you looked into the various ways to verify your expected karma level?
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Review
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 08, 2018, 01:02:22 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 08, 2018, 01:01:31 PM
Are you certain you cant, Akaramu? I mean right now. Everyone, even karma 3 need to spec app for sorcs/psis.  I thought I read somewhere that karma 2 can spec app psies/sorcs. 

Only thing is there is a limit on how many sorcs/psies can be in game at the same time.

They used to be able to but they can't anymore, sadly. 5-karma players were by far the most shafted by the new system.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akaramu on October 08, 2018, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 08, 2018, 01:01:57 PM
Side note - Have you looked into the various ways to verify your expected karma level?
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Review

Not yet, but if enough other things change and I am motivated to play again, I might.  :)

...then again, I'm pretty sure I have some bad account notes from the two times I butted heads with staff because I felt misunderstood and treated EXTREMELY unfairly. Both times other staff admitted I was right to complain much later, but I have no faith about THAT being in my account notes. The original comments are most likely still there.

But that's old stuff and sorta off topic (right now my absence has nothing to do with staff), so meh.

Quote from: sleepyhead on October 08, 2018, 01:02:22 PM
They used to be able to but they can't anymore, sadly. 5-karma players were by far the most shafted by the new system.

Yup. And I have a feeling there were a lot of 5 karma players since it used to be sort of a soft cap for most.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 08, 2018, 01:17:17 PM
My perspective.  I'm not going to address veterans returning directly, but rather in a broad way some of the things they have touched on.

The game is dynamic.  While change may not happen at the pace everyone would prefer, change happens and is constant.  It is myopic to look at this statement and think it applies only, or even most importantly, to the game world itself.  It applies to the game world, the supporting structures, the staff and the players.

The Gameworld

Dynamism is not only the addition of content, code and features. It also implies the loss of these things as well.  And in the context of Armageddon, the loss or closing off previously playable options is important to avoid bloat. Part of this is obvious. You can't reconcile Kurac control of Luirs with the existence of the Garrison. Some things only grow on the graves of what came before. It can be harder to be comfortable with things like Tor not being playable, or Elkros/Nilazi/Drov elementalists existing but not being playable. Sometimes we need the field to lay fallow, and in the context of Armageddon that can be measured in years and even decades. Sometimes we punt the decision on what to do down the road. And sometimes we find that the concept might be good in theory, but doesn't play out in practice in a way that fits within the overall game world in a positive way.

The Supporting Structures

These perhaps change the slowest of all.  The website.  The GDB.  The request tool. Facebook.  Twitter. Discord. Various marketing campaigns. It is a very different landscape of supporting structures from when Olafson started playing, but the internet itself is a very different landscape. The place of our game in that landscape has also changed dramatically in that timeframe. While we can try to implement new things like Discord as they appear and add value, the continued evolution in the gaming space seems to push MUDs in general into an increasingly niche space.

The Staff

Staff change. Support players receive can vary by Storyteller, but can also vary by what is going on in a Storyteller's life. When we say we are volunteers a large piece of what we are saying is that we aren't here 9-5 most days a week focused on this hobby. We are here when we can be, but our involvement with the game can be as varied and dynamic as the other parts of our lives.

While we endeavor to maintain a consistent front for the benefit of the players, Staff views change with the makeup of the individuals who are staffing. My style, views and priorities are not the same as Nergal, Adhira or Nyr. In some respects muting the dynamism of these things at the Staff level is important in order to maintain consistency. I don't get to change everything I want to simply because I would do it differently, and that is a good thing.

The Players

This is hands down the most dynamic part of the game. The players themselves change, changing the makeup of levels of roleplay, leadership, game knowledge, plot generation, twinking and any number of other factors exhibited by the player base as a whole. So not only is the player generated content constantly changing, the way in which they approach the game world, staff generated content and player generated content is constantly changing. This inevitably lends itself to cycles, not only of activity but of things like roleplay quality, engagement in player and staff plots, and all sort of other things.

Much like the game world, parts of the player base come and go. In a dynamic game where change is a constant, some cannot reconcile the current game world to another version of it, typically some golden age in the past, or some theoretical future that would happen if they got to make all the changes they want. Some parts of the player base need to lie fallow, recharging until they return, sometimes years or even decades later.  And like staff, players involvement with the game is as varied and dynamic as the other parts of their lives.

And this is a good thing. The richness of interaction in Armageddon is dependent on a dynamic player base. Veterans are an important piece of that dynamic, and it is appreciated when they choose to return and become involved in the game once more after a period of absence.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 02:17:26 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 08, 2018, 01:17:17 PM
The richness of interaction in Armageddon is dependent on a dynamic player base. Veterans are an important piece of that dynamic, and it is appreciated when they choose to return and become involved in the game once more after a period of absence.

Thanks for that post, Brokkr, and for sharing your perspective.

I wish I could say that the above statement appears true to word as staff's stand and I hope that the amount of shared issues among the responding veterans brings forth the change of those and other commonalities. 

When I came back last September, as I do every time I get back, I reached out to other veteran players I know and badgered the fuck out of them to come back. Feel free to out yourselves, vets I badgered, if you wish. 



To quote a private conversation I recently had:

Quote
Me: You've been silent.  You playing?
Them: No, decided I'm not going to
too different of a game
Me: Fair enough. It's a fair assessment.

Even now that I'm not playing I'm badgering vets to come back because like Olafson.

Quote from: Olafson on October 08, 2018, 10:24:22 AM

We're not always going to agree with decisions, but this game is so good, please don't give up on it

I am expecting to play this game for another 25 years.

Olafson

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Decameron on October 08, 2018, 05:23:56 PM
Guess I'm late to this party.

Biggest Complaint: My own playtimes. That's what it comes down to. Like the majority of veterans here, I'll mention that life gets in the way. My career took off and the amount of time I could dedicate to a game dropped significantly. Like Synthesis and a few others mentioned, not being able to commit to a high-level of playtime gives you patience, and you'll definitely need it. You'll see those who have the time to excel in the game quickly surpass you in skills, in connections, and any sort of long-term, long-lasting companionship is kind've tossed to the way side.

When I could dedicate DAYS to this, I felt my PC was the hero (or villain) of his own living story.  More recently, when I looked around, I realized that with the little amount of playtime I have, I am going to be (at best) an awesome supporting character. Background noise. What's-their-name. That realization really sucked. However, that's the way it goes, as leadership in this game essentially becomes a second job, and requires a huge investment. I admit that I can't do things like lead anymore, because it wouldn't be fair to players beneath me, but I applaud both those IC leaders who still bare with it and the staff. Both are thankless jobs, as they can both put in hundreds of hours for a simple game, with absolutely zero return on their investment when it comes down to it.

Glass Ceiling / That Old Feeling..: I am trying to put one into words and admittedly having a hard time. Excuse the rant here. I can imagine a lot of us want to 'change the Known', as some of the previous posters put it - to build and destroy Empires, to explore every portion of the Known, to achieve the enormous requirements to create a MMH, etc. As our scope of the Known grows narrower and narrower (i.e. The closing of Tuluk, the replacement of one 'big bad guy' with Gith, the lessening / elimination of certain classes) it feels like the Glass Ceiling still hasn't gone away, but almost that it's lowered gradually over time. We used to have Thrain, Samos, the Plainsman, the White Rantarri, there used to be senators and senator meetings and a bunch of different heroes and villains. It's hard to believe looking back that actual PC wars took place. I figure it's more nostalgia rather than fact, but I used to think there was something out there, that raising a PC army would just take PCs, that making a dramatic change would just require being that change. Now I feel as though there's a system in place that keeps innovation, exploring, building, etc at a stagnant point, and that may be OOC or it may be IC, but krath-damn, it is HARD to do anything, and it's been so long since I've seen anything like that done that I am wondering if it is still possible, or we're just not trying hard enough.

Enough of my negativity.

What brought me back: The same thing that always brings me back. It'll never stop. This time around it was the opportunity to try out the new classes. I don't regret it at all. Cool stuff, and thanks to everyone involved in that. The level of RP that I get in Armageddon is something that I can't get anywhere else, and as long as there are other PCs to interact with, then I'll always be coming back no matter how much time I take off. I've found myself just randomly thinking of character concepts 2 years into a break, and found myself unable to think about anything else. It's always amazing to me how concepts evolve and shift, thanks mostly due to the amazing role-players that we have a community. The staff is awesome, the players are awesome, we have Discord which I would've PKed for back in the day, we have a much more transparent approach with the staff through meetings / dialog there, and I really think it's added an additional layer to the community, even if I do mostly use it for 40k memes.

Two Misc. Thoughts:I agree with the sentiment that our history needs a little bit of an updating. I also feel as some consistency with what's going within the clan would be useful not only for new sponsored roles, but also for the transition of staff during their own rotations. It would give both the clan members and clan staff a good spot to catch up on the overall workings of their clan. Yes, clan should communicate ICly, but especially if you're a sponsored role, it would be nice to have some reasonable idea what is going on locally rather than having always been kept in a cage until Age 125 of Ruk's Quakening. If it were part of the GDB, there could be a reflective side on the staff area where they could comment / link various sections in relations to the plots involved, and give new staff / rotating staff the opportunity to catch up a little more quickly (supplemented with digging through character reports, etc).

Lastly, I wonder if the way we've divided staffing is beneficial or promotes scoped-vision and contributes to a higher turn-over rate. Staff are people (except for you, whoever is reading this) and obviously may favor or have interest in one aspect of the game over the other. Staff X loves political drama, and absolutely hates magickers. Staff Y loves magickers. All Staffer C wants to do is approve or disapprove characters / master-crafts. Under the current system, these staff members might get tossed into a variety of roles /clans / tasks, that they have no interest in doing. Dividing it along clan lines makes sense, but I am wondering if splitting it up in a different way might be beneficial and allow for more mingling of ideas. Clan leaders would still be required to make reports, but those reports would be viewed by all the staff, and then larger, overarching plots would be worked into to thread the clans / non-clanned, etc, together. It would be staffing based off plots, not clans. Completely talking out of my ass, certainly, but just wondering if there are better approaches than might work rather than just staffing based off clans.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: wizturbo on October 08, 2018, 08:02:35 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 08, 2018, 01:17:17 PM

The Gameworld

Dynamism is not only the addition of content, code and features. It also implies the loss of these things as well.  And in the context of Armageddon, the loss or closing off previously playable options is important to avoid bloat. Part of this is obvious. You can't reconcile Kurac control of Luirs with the existence of the Garrison. Some things only grow on the graves of what came before. It can be harder to be comfortable with things like Tor not being playable, or Elkros/Nilazi/Drov elementalists existing but not being playable.

The world changing is something I'm always 100% on board with.  Eliminating playable options in that world is what dilutes the fun of the game for me.  One of the things I enjoyed most about Armageddon is that it was the closest comparable experience to a table top RPG as I could get on a digital platform.  In many cases it felt better than a table top RPG because of the anonymity of the platform, the ability to play however much I wanted, and having hundreds of players instead of five or six. 

It doesn't feel that way anymore.  It feels limited.  It feels like a D&D game where I can only play a rogue, fighter or ranger and if I have enough karma I could throw in one or two levels of multi-class mage into the mix in exchange for being an abomination.  It just isn't that exciting to me from a character options perspective anymore.  And ultimately that's what stops me from playing more than anything else.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 09:03:57 PM
Quote from: Akaramu on October 08, 2018, 12:40:38 PM
I'm personally okay with karma regeneration. I'm absolutely not okay with now having 2 karma, no karma gained since 2011 (especially considering that one psi I played), and not being able to even spec app psis or sorcs anymore.

To point out the obvious, one surefire way to not get that third karma point is not playing the game and earning it.  No karma criteria for being a GDB warrior or achieving a certain post count.

There are a lot of new people with 3 karma, and it's more attainable to get full karma than it ever was on the old scale, by design.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 08, 2018, 09:15:15 PM
Quote from: Decameron on October 08, 2018, 05:23:56 PM
I used to think there was something out there, that raising a PC army would just take PCs, that making a dramatic change would just require being that change. Now I feel as though there's a system in place that keeps innovation, exploring, building, etc at a stagnant point, and that may be OOC or it may be IC, but krath-damn, it is HARD to do anything, and it's been so long since I've seen anything like that done that I am wondering if it is still possible, or we're just not trying hard enough.

This. This is what normally causes my multi-year breaks in play. As an RPI, I would think that the actions of PCs could have impactful, lasting consequences for the gameworld, but time and time again I've heard "No" for no other reason than to maintain the status quo. It can get depressing when you've put a lot of time into the game.

I OOCly understand the work that would be required to have such a dynamic and responsive world, so I understand the completely valid OOC reason for maintainig the status quo, but it doesn't dampen the disappointment, really. It just makes me jaded, and generally sets my character's sights lower, making them a bit less interesting to me.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 08, 2018, 09:19:58 PM
The game let players be massive world shakers when we averaged like 20 at peak maybe we just need to ride it to that point
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 09:39:13 PM
Few comments:

Glass ceiling/promotions
You can absolutely get promoted in roles, it happens all the time.  In certain cases we'll even let people ascend to normally unplayable ranks, but usually just for a very short time.  More on that below.

Now with that said - Can you become a black robe templar?  No.  Because that wouldn't make any sense, in the game world.  Black robe templars don't walk around the streets and interacting with people, which is what the game is about.  They sit up in their villa and order their slaves to tell the red robes what to do.  The red robes do the same thing, mostly, to the blue robes.  There is not enough interaction for someone at that height of power to justify making it a PC role.  In the case of black robes, it's not even codedly possible to make an PC (or NPC) strong enough to really reflect how powerful a black robe would be.

At that level, played properly, you're just going to be interacting with staff animating your horde of minions.  And staff have a lot of other things to worry about rather than RPing with Tektolnes or black robes all the time.  If we had 5000 players, then yes - we could (social) stratify the playerbase out enough that everyone could get interaction, but it's a pyramid and the vast bulk of us are going to be down in the dung-sweeper category.  That one dude who is RPing Tektolnes is gonna be pretty bored.

The Artist formerly known as Mastercrafting - aka wah wha wah wah nobody can mastercraft anymore!1!!11
To quote the 'help custom craft' help file:
Quote1. There are three situations that give rise to the ability to custom craft.  You choose the Custom Crafter subclass, you choose certain craft based extended subclasses, or you are guild merchant (legacy).

2. If you are a custom crafter, you may custom craft skills on your skill list, up to your current level of skill, with certain exceptions noted in the custom crafter subclass helpfile.  If you have a craft based extended subclass, you may have the ability to custom craft select skills, as noted in the helpfile for that extended subclass.
So yes, you can custom craft, you just have to pick the right (sub)guild - basically the same as it ever was.

Dwindling playerbase
I think the playerbase is aging because there's a lot of us - myself included - who have been playing this game for decades.  We grow older, get real jobs, get kids, get promoted at work, and find other things to keep us busy.  I think it's hard for Arm to appeal to the younger generation - we're a game with no graphics, no emojis, no microtransactions, and all the other stuff they're used to.  We do have some younger players, but by and large, this is a game that appeals to people who remember when the Internet was just starting out and this sort of thing was a novelty.

Enacting mega-change is hard!  whyyyyy
I think this dovetails with the above point about how we're all busy adults these days.  In a nutshell if you decide you want to.... I don't know - burn down Tuluk, someone has to not only do it ICly but also edit the 500 rooms this impacts, make appropriate NPC changes, make appropriate IC updates to clans, and do it in a way that meets the quality standards of the game in its current form.  Then we have to support it going forward, in perpetuity.

That is all easier said than done.  Back in the late 90s/early 2000s - someone like threw a torch into the Trader's Inn and some staff online just rolled with it and the game was like:  "Welp!  I guess the tavern that everybody hangs out in and quits out at is just gone!" and that sort of thing is continually held up on some kind of pedestal as being so awesome.  Traders was just a handful of rooms - but it also had NPCs, with clothing, and backgrounds, and stories, a bulletin board, scripts that run the merchants who sold wine, and food, and so on.  It also had multiple functions that were suddenly gone just because someone went to the bazaar and bought some oil and torches.

Most of these "effecting change" desires just boil down to people wanting to leave a mark on the world, but are more often than not destructive actions.  That or, they are completely innocuous and don't serve a purpose - beyond that player wanting to walk past that potted plant on the street, that they dutifully wrote up themselves, and submitted to staff and staff put it into the game, checking for typos and world fit and all that all along the way ...

I sound like a grumpy old man who doesn't want to do any work here, partially because I am, but you can still change stuff guys.  Let's not pretend it's impossible.

You can:
1)  Join staff, be the change you want to see
2)  Be a builder - do the same under staff direction
3)  Submit custom crafts - make items that you think fill the world out
4)  Participate in calls that staff make on the GDB for when we need writeups of NPCs, items, rooms, whatever
5)  And lastly - yes, participate in MEANINGFUL plots that will change the world in some manner or other.  You can look all over the map and find this stuff.

There's also a lot of save rooms in the world, which do a pretty awesome job of persisting stuff from today to tomorrow to next week, until someone else comes along and jacks all your stuff (in turn, impacting the world in their own way!)

The ability to change the world ad-hoc and on a permanent basis is something that many, many games (and written on a much more robust platform than a DIKU mud, I should add) have aspired to do.  I'll out myself and say that I played a lot of Everquest back in the day, and so when EQNext got announced, with the persistent worlds and all that - I was super pumped.  That project got scrapped, heh!  I also recently sponsored an Age of Conan server for Arm players that some of you played.  We had a thriving community of 10 or so until we all lost interest.  You could change the world but only in very certain ways.  I feel pretty confident that the budget for that game is way, way, way higher than what we pay Nessalin, too (zero dollars!)  People have offered to pay the coders but we literally cannot do this because of the DIKU license.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 08, 2018, 09:46:20 PM
So aside from getting promoted from assistant beetle masturbator to Chief Beetle Masturbator (which still takes enough playtime as to count as a part time job), what's there to do?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Is Friday on October 08, 2018, 09:55:35 PM
@seidhr Please edit your post to be less inflammatory. That's the sort of behavior that puts the nail in the coffin for experienced players, who just like you, have a lot of things on their plate IRL without being responded to like this is middle school detention. If you can't refrain from posting toxic things to your own players, then don't post and ask someone else to. Or wait 24 hours and have a friend edit your post before sending.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 08, 2018, 10:01:09 PM
Hi Staff,

I'm glad you guys are reading.  I understand that not everyone's desires for the game are feasible.  Most of these things have been discussed extensively, likely with the very same people bringing them up again here.  I don't think explaining once again why something can't/won't be done is going to entice anyone into returning.

Can we try and focus on areas where maybe things can be improved?  It sounds like maybe there's some common and tillable ground regarding public info about current events.  I bet it's a bit of a pain updating the Chronology page, but I'd certainly be satisfied with something on the GDB like the announcements that used to come after HRPT events.

P.S. Brokkr, I liked your post, though.  You made some novel and compelling points.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 08, 2018, 10:07:58 PM
I didn't find it toxic (that word is SO overused by the way - it's lost all significance at this point). I found it to be slightly more "honest and open" than it was snarky, but possessed of at least a modicum of snark. If we were to edit all snark from the GDB, no one would ever read it.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 08, 2018, 10:17:17 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 08, 2018, 10:07:58 PM
I didn't find it toxic (that word is SO overused by the way - it's lost all significance at this point). I found it to be slightly more "honest and open" than it was snarky, but possessed of at least a modicum of snark. If we were to edit all snark from the GDB, no one would ever read it.

I did find it so. Just didn't say anything.

Also, I found the "ways to change the world" section particularly disappointing after the aforementioned snark. Essentially reading it as:

"OF COURSE YOU CAN CHANGE THE WORLD! You just have to be a staff member, or do exactly what staff wants you to do in order to change the world in the way staff wants to change it. See! Perfect, your OWN mark on the world. Good job."

Which is another way of saying, "yeah, no. Players can't change the world."

But that's fine. I'm with Moe. Let's talk about the things that CAN be changed for the better.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: wizturbo on October 08, 2018, 10:40:57 PM
I'd encourage people to read these perspectives and not try to rationalize away their concerns.   It's so easy to discount other people's opinions and try to point out why they're wrong...  But that isn't productive.  All it does is reinforce your own beliefs.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 08, 2018, 10:43:27 PM
I'm certainly reinforced in my belief that staff cannot be relied upon to generate fun for you. If they do, great, but at least one of them would rather not.

QuoteI sound like a grumpy old man who doesn't want to do any work here, partially because I am

Staff making the random world fun for non-sponsored role PCs is certainly looking to be the exception rather than the rule.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Eyeball on October 08, 2018, 10:59:34 PM
I just don't understand why small events are so infrequent. You don't need earthshaking, heavens altering catastrophes to make a lot of players happy (although those are great when they happen). Just things like:

1. The outpost to the west of the city was attacked and needs some resupply. Take <stuff> out to them and be careful, a few gith might be lingering around.

2. A hole has appeared in the road in Luir's. Someone notices that when listening at the hole, you can hear water dripping. Orders come down to excavate. When the PCs do and swing pickaxes enough times, an entrance is opened up and suddenly a swarm of meer bats (or whatever) emerge and plague the outpost. Meer bat shit appears everywhere and players are ordered to hunt them down. Examination of the hole reveals a slow erosion near the well and the players are ordered to dump rocks into it, filling it.

3. A wagon gets stuck in the sands. PCs are dispatched to dig it out. When the show up, a pack of raptors has surrounded the wagon and need to be dealt with.

None of those take a lot of effort to set up, but they certainly (1) break the routine of clan life, and (2) give people something to talk about, even brag about.

Why don't we see more of this?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 08, 2018, 11:07:48 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 09:39:13 PM
The Artist formerly known as Mastercrafting - aka wah wha wah wah nobody can mastercraft anymore!1!!11
To quote the 'help custom craft' help file:
Quote1. There are three situations that give rise to the ability to custom craft.  You choose the Custom Crafter subclass, you choose certain craft based extended subclasses, or you are guild merchant (legacy).

2. If you are a custom crafter, you may custom craft skills on your skill list, up to your current level of skill, with certain exceptions noted in the custom crafter subclass helpfile.  If you have a craft based extended subclass, you may have the ability to custom craft select skills, as noted in the helpfile for that extended subclass.
So yes, you can custom craft, you just have to pick the right (sub)guild - basically the same as it ever was.

I do not enjoy the snark personally, and I think it's damaging for player/staff relations.  But since merchant class is gone that leaves two ways to master craft.  1) Special app a merchant which you are only allowed to do so often.  2) Get a special subclass ... which I couldn't tell you what subclasses those are and I'm wondering if those are also special app?

I was saying that if you have master level in a craft skill you should be able to master craft.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on October 08, 2018, 11:15:00 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 08, 2018, 10:43:27 PM
Staff making the random world fun for non-sponsored role PCs is certainly looking to be the exception rather than the rule.

I don't know, in most games I've played, staff never interacted with players, at all. In some, there are strict rules in place to enforce it, to prevent various social issues, such as perceived (and real) injustices and inequities.

Here, I've always had some animations happening, on my pcs. I don't know if it's luck, or if it's because I'm a habitual self-entertainer, and usually spend an excess of my time alone. I've had barkeeps giving me lip, to piss-throwing gith, to a rat who conned me out of cheese, to jerks who stab the fuck right out of me, and murder my virtual family.

It isn't a lot, but its enough, I'd call it consistent.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 08, 2018, 11:15:46 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 08, 2018, 11:07:48 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 09:39:13 PM
The Artist formerly known as Mastercrafting - aka wah wha wah wah nobody can mastercraft anymore!1!!11
To quote the 'help custom craft' help file:
Quote1. There are three situations that give rise to the ability to custom craft.  You choose the Custom Crafter subclass, you choose certain craft based extended subclasses, or you are guild merchant (legacy).

2. If you are a custom crafter, you may custom craft skills on your skill list, up to your current level of skill, with certain exceptions noted in the custom crafter subclass helpfile.  If you have a craft based extended subclass, you may have the ability to custom craft select skills, as noted in the helpfile for that extended subclass.
So yes, you can custom craft, you just have to pick the right (sub)guild - basically the same as it ever was.

I do not enjoy the snark personally, and I think it's damaging for player/staff relations.  But since merchant class is gone that leaves two ways to master craft.  1) Special app a merchant which you are only allowed to do so often.  2) Get a special subclass ... which I couldn't tell you what subclasses those are and I'm wondering if those are also special app?

I was saying that if you have master level in a craft skill you should be able to master craft.

To Custom Craft, you either take the Customer Crafter subclass (https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafter) or one of the "Master Crafter" extended subguilds  (such as Master Weaponcrafter, Master Chef, etc).
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
re: Eyeball
We do stuff like this all the time, probably a dozen or more times per week.  The storytellers are constantly doing animations for things like this, perhaps minus the world-building aspect of idea #2.  That does happen also, but admittedly less often.

re: BadSkeelz
While every staff is different, generally it's the storytellers that are plot-interacting with players.  As an Administrator, my Arm-job is more about supporting them, who in turn support the players.  I do occasionally get a wild hair and do my own animations though.  I do agree though that it's not staff's job to generate fun for the playerbase, at least not 100% of the time.  The players should be interacting with each other for most of that, and we can turn dials or pull our levers along the way.  Then there's the big staff plots which are absolutely staff-generated fun, but those are often frameworks around changes that are larger in nature.

re: Is Friday / Heade
My bad about the snark!  You guys should look at yourselves through staff's eyes sometimes though.  We all play a game about harsh desert survival, tagline and all, and a little sarcasm still slices like a knife.

re: Others re: worldchange
Define "change the world" - do so in a way that encompasses whatever Arm doesn't let you do that you so desperately want it to.  I'm listening.  Change my mind.

re: further back in the thread
There are some good ideas here.  There are also some ideas that simply won't work for a variety of reasons, but that's fine too.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 08, 2018, 11:38:45 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
re: Is Friday / Heade
My bad about the snark!  You guys should look at yourselves through staff's eyes sometimes though.  We all play a game about harsh desert survival, tagline and all, and a little sarcasm still slices like a knife.

I agree with them about the snark.  I play a game about murder, corruption and betrayl - doesn't mean I want to engage in any of that IRL or that sarcasm OOC is warranted.  We're voicing valid issues respectfully.  That respect should be mutual.  I'm one of the people that vocalized my issue with the master crafting system, or lack thereof and inferring I'm crying about it isn't really productive.  Edited to add - especially when some people on here are already saying they've struggled with staff relations.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:48:45 PM
Re: Staff rotations why and how often
We rotate responsibilities for a few reasons but I think the biggest is just so that we can all learn about the game and keep up to date with what is going on - as well as just not getting burned out dealing with the same thing day in and day out.  I think there's supposed to be some kind of official rotation cycle time, but it seems to happen mostly just when it's convenient, as we get an influx of new blood most often.  Good clean break.

Re: Staff only working on things that interest them
Well - there's still some room for that, and I think the Admins (for myself speaking personally, for sure) try to let the STs run the clans that most interest them.  Certain people are very interested in reviewing and approving apps, other people like to fix typos, other people like to animate a lot - it just depends on the person and their interests.  We do split up into teams to cover the clans just so all the players have someone being their storyteller (and Admin) and therefore has an advocate in staff land.  If we just let staff run wild west and do whatever they want, minus whatever they didn't care to work on - certain things/clans would inevitably fall by the wayside.  And what those things would be would shift as the staff team itself did.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Decameron on October 09, 2018, 12:40:21 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:48:45 PM
Re: Staff only working on things that interest them
Well - there's still some room for that, and I think the Admins (for myself speaking personally, for sure) try to let the STs run the clans that most interest them.  Certain people are very interested in reviewing and approving apps, other people like to fix typos, other people like to animate a lot - it just depends on the person and their interests.  We do split up into teams to cover the clans just so all the players have someone being their storyteller (and Admin) and therefore has an advocate in staff land.  If we just let staff run wild west and do whatever they want, minus whatever they didn't care to work on - certain things/clans would inevitably fall by the wayside.  And what those things would be would shift as the staff team itself did.

Of course, and no one wants for plots to fall the wayside, which does naturally happen. It isn't anyone's fault. The characters involve die off, store, someone attempts to go in another direction, etc. I was just spit-balling, mostly, and wondering if there's a different metric to use other than clans as the division of responsibility. Something that would span and interweave clan plots a little more concisely, while also keeping the indies in the loop. Wasn't suggesting I have a better idea, either. Just brain-storming / ranting, mostly.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 09, 2018, 01:42:36 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
re: Is Friday / Heade
My bad about the snark!  You guys should look at yourselves through staff's eyes sometimes though.  We all play a game about harsh desert survival, tagline and all, and a little sarcasm still slices like a knife.

Yeah, my bad, too. While, I generally attempt to keep snark out of my posts, my last one was most certainly a riposte. ;)

Sorry.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 01:57:25 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
re: Others re: worldchange
Define "change the world" - do so in a way that encompasses whatever Arm doesn't let you do that you so desperately want it to.  I'm listening.  Change my mind.

I am listening too.  What would be helpful is specific things.  What steps you would go through.  How much time and effort from the player you think it would take.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 09, 2018, 02:09:51 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 01:57:25 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:22:21 PM
re: Others re: worldchange
Define "change the world" - do so in a way that encompasses whatever Arm doesn't let you do that you so desperately want it to.  I'm listening.  Change my mind.

I am listening too.  What would be helpful is specific things.  What steps you would go through.  How much time and effort from the player you think it would take.

The issue is that we can't get into specifics here. It's just the generall stamping out of plot ideas before they've even had time to be developed, or have been developed up to a point where further development would require builder time and changing things IG, and so their progress is stopped via an OOC "No." response to a request or something, where it provides plenty of opportunity for staff to stamp out their progress IC instead.

I'd rather you murder my PC with NPCs for completely legitimate IG reasons than for my character progress to be halted because continuing my progress would OOCly be inconvenient, basically. Of course, I'd expect those NPCs to have found out via a legitimate IG path, or to have leaked information to a PC that they obtained via a legitimate IG path, but in either case, I'd rather have the IC world tell my PC "no" than to hear it via a request. Wouldn't even have to be murder to stop their progress on something. Could be being recruited into whoever is interested in stopping them from doing whatever it is they are trying to do. It would just be far more engaging, and the world would feel far more dynamic and alive.

Extreme Example: I want to kill Tektolnes. No staff are going to let me do that, because of just how much would need to be changed in the gameworld. But rather than tell me "No. Think of something else to do." I'd rather have staff say, ok, give it a shot. How are you going about it? How would you solve X, Y, and Z problems that you'd obviously face along the way?

Then, let me answer IC, let me try, and watch me fizzle out and die along the way. Or not. But let whatever happens, happen IC.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Is Friday on October 09, 2018, 06:19:24 AM
Quotere: Is Friday / Heade
My bad about the snark!  You guys should look at yourselves through staff's eyes sometimes though.  We all play a game about harsh desert survival, tagline and all, and a little sarcasm still slices like a knife.
I'm just pointing this out for you because no one else was going to. When you're in a position of power over these players your casually dismissive tone and mocking turns people away. I mean shit, this thread is about jaded vets and why they're not playing anymore. You can add rudeness and disrespect from staff to the list. I've never had a bad interaction with you personally Seidhr but if you ever gave me a response like that as my clan staff I would just store. It's not about being a tough guy--it's more just that I wouldn't want to continue wasting my time with a person who displays the opposite of a collaborative attitude.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 06:53:42 AM
Sometimes spontaneous stuff does still effect the world regarding stuff I read above all of this. Back in late 2016 I randomly decided to subdue a barakhan lizard from the rooftops and bring it into the Byn training hall for funsies, and Akariel animated it without any prompt. Staff seemed to enjoy it enough that they made it a persistent NPC which you can now see in the Byn storeroom. That being said it's a very minor thing, but one of the few things I've actually managed to get persistent in my arm career not that I've really tried anything like it before or since. I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 09, 2018, 07:07:05 AM
That is very minor though. This thread has been about ceilings and hierarchy limits in game. While it's cool, and most staff strive to do that -- be spontaneous and do whatever they can to give players some enjoyment -- I don't think that's even close to the many points brought up in this thread.

Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 07:22:09 AM
Sorry I didn't mean to infer I wasn't aware of that, I completely agree there are arbitrary limits on what you can and can't do based on staff's mood. I've also found OOC hurdles more difficult to overcome than IC ones with regards to getting something done, I only wanted to point out that the less ambitious you are the more willing staff are to accommodate I suppose. I too, would much prefer to get killed IC for trying to overthrow Tektolnes than I would having my character told "No" by staff and that being that. One is an appropriate world response, the other is your rebellion failing because there is simply no world response.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 07:30:38 AM
Quote from: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 06:53:42 AM
I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Quote from: boog on October 09, 2018, 07:07:05 AM
Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 08:44:36 AM
Like I'm not itching for any further confrontation with staff, I'm only sharing the above because I felt that the whole interaction shut down my intended role which had been clearly laid out in advance, which is relevent to the topic at hand

This.

I have a history of [insert whatever staff (collectively or individually) has thought of me here] and there is always some misunderstanding, some communication, some restriction we don't like but I have personally learned that staff are people too. That most of them mean well. There's always at least one who is pretty much less than diplomatic and ends up earning that reputation.  We all know the one.

Staff being people too, they commit mistakes, my retirement was catapulted by a staff mistake. 17 years, survived Sanvean not understanding me (Miss you San!), nessalin hattttted me (I still remember that vivaduan pool like it was yesterday) and plenty others have dropped fucked up notes on mt account.  Like it or not, staff's opinion of you as a player affects your futures, all of them.

Players opinion of staff affects THE GAME.

And let me tell you something... apologies and rectifications go a lonnnnng way.

Admission of wrong doing isn't staff's strongsuit.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 09, 2018, 11:30:34 AM
Outlasting your enemies (perceived or real) is the best revenge.

Any staffer I had a "problem" with (and I use the term loosely since sometimes it was just miscommunication on my part), is gone. And I'm still here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 09, 2018, 11:34:56 AM
Yeah... I mean, coming from a customer service standpoint though, that's really unacceptable. You don't just wait out bad cashiers, management, or upper management. You end up going to another store.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 12:13:07 PM
Let's go back to trying to bringing back veterans and retaining the ones we have.  After all, they are the true keepers of the lore. Veterans ARE the bards.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 12:40:45 PM
I had to moderate a post due to including information relevant to the poster's current, alive character.

You know better.  Don't do this.

Being upset doesn't make breaking the rules okay.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Samira on October 09, 2018, 12:42:58 PM
I played most from 2005-2011, then on and off again afterwards with decreasing regularity. The last time I really played was in 2014.

Like other posters here, I kind of feel that I've outgrown the game. I don't regret the time I've spent playing Arm, but I've done almost everything I've wanted to here and my free time has become more valuable to me.

When I have managed to get myself to log on in recent years, it just doesn't feel like the same game.

With the closure of Tuluk and the removal of the pure magicker guilds, there seems to be far less variety, both in character options and the things to do in world. What has been added to the game, while cool, so far seems like more shades in fewer colors. Allanaki culture isn't quite what I remember, and in fact seems a little weird ... which I suppose can be attributed to the playerbase being consolidated.

Overall, it seems clear that the game is in major decline, though I wouldn't put too much of the blame on anyone. As has been mentioned, MUDs in general are ancient, and it's increasingly difficult to help younger, prospective players understand their appeal. It's also been the same setting since, what, the 90's? Even with two cities it was going to start running out of steam sooner or later.

The GDB doesn't seem to have changed much, though!


Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 12:50:33 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 07:30:38 AM
Quote from: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 06:53:42 AM
I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Quote from: boog on October 09, 2018, 07:07:05 AM
Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

When we see an application for X, even if the person talks about doing Y with their character...we still assume that the person will do X, with part of their story being trying to do Y.  Not that they will not do or barely do X, so that they can focus on doing Y.

It would be easy to dismiss this as oversimplifying...but this has relevance to the issue with the situation referenced in the moderated post, as well. It is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Armaddict on October 09, 2018, 01:06:33 PM
QuoteIt is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.

Pretty much the cause of most discord in the game between staff and players, AND players and players, I think.  This is the actual reason why I stay heavily rooted in code, is because when we're arguing about interpretations...the likelihood of swerving an opinion or how they see things is actually pretty small.

I'm not sure if it's the same way now.  Staff used to make lots of leeway for interpretation on how they regulated, on what they allowed to occur...but almost no leeway on making changes to the game through that different interpretation.  Is that still how you'd describe it?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 09, 2018, 01:37:07 PM
So I think I'm seeing some consistent categories of veteran malaise.

Real Life is Hard
Aging players get caught up in families and/or higher demand careers.  Not a lot can be done directly, though might be worth some more thought about roles that can be explicitly more casual but still rewarding.

What's Going On In There?
Not enough information about current events to entice players into returning or help them craft a relevant background.  Updates to the Chronology page would be nice.  Some other system (maybe just on GDB) to help keep players updated about big events might be better.

The World Is Too Static
Players feel powerless to affect lasting changes in the world.  Even minor room updates seem to take an eternity, or even after players put in the work and time and writing may not be implemented at all.

Options I Enjoyed Are No Longer Available
Namely magickers, sorcerers, Tuluk, and some upper ranks.  I understand things come and things go, but there seems to be a prevalent feeling that we've lost more variety than we've added recently.

"Diplomatic Incidents"
Players had a confrontation with staff and it was not resolved in a manner they were happy with.  Staff, my reading of these complaints, and from my own perspective, is that it's not about the actual issue anymore.  Re-litigating the problem here isn't going to motivate anyone to return.  It's a matter of tone and diplomacy.  Let's be honest, there were some widespread struggles with player-staff relations over the last 5 years or so.  From what I can tell, things have gotten a lot better lately.  There's always room for improvement, though.  I know you're volunteers and we're not customers, but a potential boost in veteran player numbers might be worth the effort of some diplomatic outreach and/or a little extra polish on the "customer service" aspect of staffing.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 09, 2018, 01:45:28 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 09, 2018, 01:37:07 PM
What's Going On In There?
Not enough information about current events to entice players into returning or help them craft a relevant background.  Updates to the Chronology page would be nice.  Some other system (maybe just on GDB) to help keep players updated about big events might be better.

It seems to me this is the easiest one to fix, and would have the benefit of cluing in and possibly drawing in more new players as well.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akaramu on October 09, 2018, 02:03:22 PM
Don't forget the gypsies, Moe! Even though I'm probably a minority in that regard  :'(
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 09, 2018, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: Akaramu on October 09, 2018, 02:03:22 PM
Don't forget the gypsies, Moe! Even though I'm probably a minority in that regard  :'(
See, I know they got a volcano dropped on their water park (sorry, I had a small part in that...) but I didn't know they were closed entirely now.  Sad indeed.  They were ALWAYS fun to play around.

Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?
Hard to say, personally, what events are worth knowing about since I don't know what events have happened in the last year-ish.  On the GDB I heard about... salt storms?  Ruins of the elementalist's quarter?  Whatever that super-sekrit "do we have permission to ruin your character's life?" announcement was about?

Longer term... is Red Storm East still ruled by giants?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: puella on October 09, 2018, 02:32:16 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?

The Allanaki "civil" war from 2015/6(?) and the big black robe fight.


Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 02:34:39 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 12:50:33 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 07:30:38 AM
Quote from: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 06:53:42 AM
I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Quote from: boog on October 09, 2018, 07:07:05 AM
Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

When we see an application for X, even if the person talks about doing Y with their character...we still assume that the person will do X, with part of their story being trying to do Y.  Not that they will not do or barely do X, so that they can focus on doing Y.

It would be easy to dismiss this as oversimplifying...but this has relevance to the issue with the situation referenced in the moderated post, as well. It is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.

You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 02:34:39 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 12:50:33 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 07:30:38 AM
Quote from: yousuff on October 09, 2018, 06:53:42 AM
I'm not trying to rub anything in anyone's face, just trying to emphasise the staff aren't opposed to adding things.

Quote from: boog on October 09, 2018, 07:07:05 AM
Creating a stationary npc that takes five minutes to add to the world doesn't address the stagnation players feel for their ambitious characters. It doesn't address the issues some people face with consistently negative staff interactions. It doesn't address a huge chunk of the gameworld being gone without any sort of explanation.

I was asked to apply for a role.
What I wanted to do was talked about during the approval process. At length.
My concept and character were approved.
When the time came to move towards that goal everything was denied.


That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

When we see an application for X, even if the person talks about doing Y with their character...we still assume that the person will do X, with part of their story being trying to do Y.  Not that they will not do or barely do X, so that they can focus on doing Y.

It would be easy to dismiss this as oversimplifying...but this has relevance to the issue with the situation referenced in the moderated post, as well. It is a difficult misunderstanding to have, because it is often based on something that goes beyond the documentation to the level of understanding of the game world, and sometime there is a different view held at that level between the player and staff.

You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.
It's more of a reference to my moderated post I think. While I appreciate the slightly more explanative response here I do wish staff would carry the same tone they do in private requests they do in public responses, which is far more pleasant as opposed to the threats of storage and the less than thinly veiled reference to a ban I recieved 5 years ago and its implications.

I do want to clarify I've had pleasant interactions since though and I want to maintain that rapport, but I do want to voice my concern about how quickly they leaped to storage and threats.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 02:34:39 PM
You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.

Quite familiar with it.  Your first sentence is literally the Y. The role the app was for, the X.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 09, 2018, 03:33:53 PM
I think staff need to very clearly state, so there is no mistake, the things that can and can not be pursued if there is no possibility of Y ever happening. Otherwise, it is a sort of deception that ruins player morale and desire to play their role where they are required to do X.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 03:37:28 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 02:34:39 PM
You're welcome to read my request #79350 in its entirety. I think we're talking about 2 different things here.  Your response makes it seem like there lacked clarity.

Quite familiar with it.  Your first sentence is literally the Y. The role the app was for, the X.

Was it? We'll have to disagree then. The role call was for X.  I specifically said I'm applying for X with Y in mind and we settled on Z we both agreed on and it was after that agreement that I applied.  That Z was denied when I approached it and even after that disappointment I was STILL attempting to compromise.

Staff in charge not only asked me to apply for that and the previous b role call but knew what I wanted to do.

If this teaches us anything it's that role calls would benefit from a lot more detail [like a shit load more than come be a byn sarge arrr salarrrrrr] so that everyone is on the same page. I've played a couple of sponsored roles, this one has caused me to swear them off forever.  I would rather play independents (gag) that are thwarted from the get than to be privy to the power an existing entity has from that character out.

All that would have been avoided had I not been told it was okay.  Had the just been honesty and expectations laid out.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: crymerci on October 09, 2018, 04:14:30 PM
Re: changing the world

Everyone wants to change the world, but no one thinks about the result - everyone else can change the world too. If there was no limit on staff support for changing the world (or being able to do it without staff support) it doesn't take much imagination to see that while it would create lots of opportunity for conflict, that conflict would quickly degrade the game world. The changes most people point to, as wanting to be able to do that again, involve either destroying 'enemy' property or creating independent strongholds.

OK, so your crew of Kadians sabotaged the Salarri compound. Now Salarr retaliates by poisoning Kadius's water supply. Now Kadius and Salarr can continue harming each other, or try to repair their own damage, but it takes longer to build/fix things than to destroy them.

You have a huge group of raiders and decide it's big enough to create a wilderness stronghold - fine, but can you build and defend it better than the rest of the playerbase can destroy it? Can you maintain a supply line for the decade it will take to make it self-sufficient? Or will your base be overtaken as soon as the right person hears a rumor it exists?

The first scenario involves probably about 40 hours of staff work and provides maybe the same number of hours of player enjoyment of the plot. The second scenario requires perhaps the same amount of building work for something that (if you really want the world changeable) could be destroyed the next week. And then additional staff monitoring to see if your group really keeps up their work for, basically, the rest of the stronghold's lifetime. Leader dies and no one else logs in/visits the camp for a week or two? -sorry, that stronghold is a gith camp now, and they thank you for your hard work. Then you can go to the GDB and complain about how staff are more supportive of other people's changes than yours, and leave the staffer who donated a week's labor feeling pretty unappreciated.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 09, 2018, 06:03:38 PM
Quote from: crymerci on October 09, 2018, 04:14:30 PM
it takes longer to build/fix things than to destroy them.

This is the crux right here.

Destruction is easier, creation is harder. Taking things away is easier, building things is harder. PK is easier, engaging in long-term plots is challenging. Ultimately though, creating things (even if temporary, or intended to be changed over time) is far more rewarding as well.

Too much destruction and no creation leads to disenchanted and frustrated players.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Iiyola on October 09, 2018, 08:32:33 PM
My pet peeve is the lack of communication among staff. It seems staffer A doesn't know what has been discussed IG with staffer B. Or when a particular NPC suddenly acts COMPLETELY different than usual and throws you under the bus.

Yes, I'm still bitter about that death. And I believe the above is the main reason for it.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Armaddict on October 09, 2018, 08:38:18 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on October 09, 2018, 08:32:33 PM
My pet peeve is the lack of communication among staff. It seems staffer A doesn't know what has been discussed IG with staffer B. Or when a particular NPC suddenly acts COMPLETELY different than usual and throws you under the bus.

Yes, I'm still bitter about that death. And I believe the above is the main reason for it.

I had something similar happen, where I asked directly if the thing I talked about with A had been delivered to the person who killed me as promised.  They said no, they forgot, but there was no guarantee that would have changed anything.

I don't really blame the death on it, but still...that was months where it could have been done, and it did have some pretty important 'Still doing X thing' information in it.  I could have definitely changed things, and that wasn't infuriating, but it was shake-head worthy.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Harmless on October 09, 2018, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: Akaramu on October 09, 2018, 02:03:22 PM
Don't forget the gypsies, Moe! Even though I'm probably a minority in that regard  :'(

Wait..


Gypsies are closed?

YABSD  (Yet Another Bad Staff Decision...)

I missed this.


This is deeply disappointing and is outright stupid.

Fix this immediately...make them an entirely unsupported role if desired, but allow those players with the lore and knowhow to play one to play the role they want.

I have never played a gypsy before but they do nothing but good for the game, so wtf?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 09, 2018, 10:32:35 PM
they're not exactly closed, but mostly just borderline extinct and eviscerated years ago. If some portions of them exist, they are so different then what gypsies were once. I imagine so different, staff is yet to write it up wtf exactly are they.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Harmless on October 09, 2018, 10:57:35 PM
I have been playing quite a bit ever since years before the volcano incident, and remember gypsies plenty before it as well as after it. I don't recall there being much IC justification for such a statement. I smell a retcon here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: mansa on October 09, 2018, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: Harmless on October 09, 2018, 10:57:35 PM
I have been playing quite a bit ever since years before the volcano incident, and remember gypsies plenty before it as well as after it. I don't recall there being much IC justification for such a statement. I smell a retcon here.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Tan%20Muark

Not okay to use as background. This is a sponsored role. Open for play to PC's when sponsored role request is announced in Staff Announcements, on the GDB, but this is otherwise closed and cannot be applied for via 'role application'.



I believe they were always this way.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 11:19:22 PM
There was an attempt to have folks play the survivors, doing all enable the tribe to survive stuff, in the months after the volcano destroyed Tyn Dashra.  The last post in their forum is October 2014.  So they haven't been playable for awhile now.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Aruven on October 10, 2018, 01:47:33 AM
Quote from: Delirium on October 09, 2018, 06:03:38 PM
Quote from: crymerci on October 09, 2018, 04:14:30 PM
it takes longer to build/fix things than to destroy them.

This is the crux right here.

Destruction is easier, creation is harder. Taking things away is easier, building things is harder. PK is easier, engaging in long-term plots is challenging. Ultimately though, creating things (even if temporary, or intended to be changed over time) is far more rewarding as well.

Too much destruction and no creation leads to disenchanted and frustrated players.

This.

I never got full karma, all this stuff was taken after i'd played for ten or more years. That felt like a robbery, but after 12-13 years I felt it wasn't for me anyways, I wasn't enrolling people in my roleplay at that level. I'd try whatever the new shit was.

The game has changed. I'm appreciative to the players that've shaped it. I'm appreciative to the staff that've shaped it. I'm grateful the MUD is still around. 

The last guy I pulled in told me he was tired of his IC boss just telling him how to twink craft the code and putting him in a room to craft all day. (Wtf bruh)

We as players get to step it up too, or maybe its just me out here drifting? That was a clan leader he was talking about. I get lazy if I get bored and can be a little twinky. I get reckless and kill plots i'm entrusted with by trying something utterly risky, lets say stupid. SOMETIMES. Sometimes I don't emote before the 9th forage anymore. I go AFK at unfortunate times (I do love dogs). And gith's breath my GRAMMAR, I just type like a SAVAGE. I only do it for your love! I'll make a genuine effort to be entertaining and receptive to some roleplay over code. I'll improve--Hell i'll even vote! MUDSEXX. We get to keep the players we do get if its righteous. 

Removing content sucks for me as a player, i'm also always open to change. It feels akward to see player initiatives seemingly restricted without the perceived change visible. As a player I've seen a lot go amongst the great additions. I do wonder where the game is at in the big picture. I feel like communication gets blurred between Discord and the GDB, and that enthusiastic side of staff communication for that vision kind of comes and goes in waves. I could also just be missing shit.

-Staff and players are both awesome, there've been some situations over the years: shit happens. Reconciliation is huge and its the only thing that keep the monopoly board from getting flipped and ruining it for everyone. Staff have a hard job. By all accounts it an be a thankless job and you get to comb threads like this one. I thinks its good to acknowledge the staff we do have for their efforts.

-Take up Seidhr's offer. Apply for staff and be the impetus for amazing things.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 02:58:06 AM
By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: yousuff on October 10, 2018, 03:11:43 AM
Quote from: Dar on October 10, 2018, 02:58:06 AM
By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.
+1000000000 :-\
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Eyeball on October 10, 2018, 07:38:22 AM
Quote from: Dar on October 10, 2018, 02:58:06 AM
By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.

Why not set up a Wiki for the documents and allow players to make edits which don't go in until a staff member approves them.

If some change is contentious, set up a poll here.

That could cover chronology too.

There could be an accompanying program to convert Wiki pages into text help files for access inside of the game.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 10, 2018, 08:49:22 AM
Quote from: Aruven on October 10, 2018, 01:47:33 AM
-Take up Seidhr's offer. Apply for staff and be the impetus for amazing things.

The statistics for actually becoming staff, and then being able to change the things you want are extremely low. We can all say that we would change x, y, or z if we become staff, but it's highly unlikely that you'd be able to for a number of reasons, speaking from experience.

I don't think this is the way to change anything. I mean, do you have to become a politician to change policy? No, certainly not. You have to be a vocal citizen, though.

I think this thread is doing a good job in doing just that: vocalizing issues. No one's been overdramatic or ugly. All of this is being rather politely discussed.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Feco on October 10, 2018, 10:56:14 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to second a few things.  I still play, for what it's worth.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 04, 2018, 04:46:13 PM
*Firstly, I'll say the biggest reason I've been absent has been life circumstances.  I've had a job that's been half travel and half work-at-home for the last year or so.  While traveling I'm too busy to play.  Working at home, I've had to avoid open-ended time sinks like Armageddon and other games to help maintain the discipline required to get things accomplished.  Not much can be done about that, but I may have a lull in a work for a few months and might be able to play again.

Quote from: Synthesis on October 05, 2018, 12:30:12 AM
3) Not enough time to play to devote in-depth effort.  Most of the time I have like 30-45 minutes tops, off-peak, and it's spent on #2, above...because nobody enjoys dying to scrabs.

4) Difficult to maintain connections when you're a part-time, mostly off-peak player.  If you go a RL week without logging in, everyone has moved on like your PC died or they aren't really Devoted To The Cause (whatever that may be).


This is a major problem for me, particularly because I've played leaders (or at least movers and shakers) for the past couple years.  The problem I have is that I have big peaks and lulls -- I may be able to sink decent amounts of time here and there, but sometimes I just have to step back.

There's this discouraging compounding effect, too.  You don't log in with regularity, or only log in for a bit at a time, and it seems to be a problem for the people you interact with.  Then you're almost afraid to log in because of the onslaught of "I FIGURED YOU WERE DEAD," "WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN HIDING?," "WHY AREN'T YOU DEDICATED TO OUR MISSION," [insert other statements about your PCs personality that assumes that being logged out means they're just sleeping or something], so maybe you don't here and there, which only makes it "worse," so to speak.  Sometimes I often wonder if logging in for 15 minutes is worse, because than it turns into "WHY ARE YOU AVOIDING ME?"

I'll admit that not all of those accusations are direct -- sometimes it's just a feeling you get.  It may not always be accurate.

My major way of dealing with this is activating my patented Not Giving a Fuck Technology, but I'm not particularly good at using it all the time.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Zambo on October 10, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 10, 2018, 01:14:32 PM
Quote from: Zambo on October 10, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

Staff would be happy to investigate any of your bad experiences but you'll have to provide us with specifics (logs, individuals involved, screenshots, and so on) via a request, as Akariel mentioned in the other thread.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Namino on October 10, 2018, 02:14:55 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 10, 2018, 01:14:32 PM
Quote from: Zambo on October 10, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

Staff would be happy to investigate any of your bad experiences but you'll have to provide us with specifics (logs, individuals involved, screenshots, and so on) via a request, as Akariel mentioned in the other thread.

Alright. I'm wading in. Grump mode activated.

If Zambo was asking for staff to punish offenders, I might be sympathetic to the demands for evidence. Rather, from what I gathered, the individual in question is merely trying to point out things that turned them off the game (ie, the same thing this thread has been trying to do all along). They're not asking for any administrative action. And with the exception of their third point (ie, the feeling that the OOC community here is hostile), their first two points shouldn't even require evidence. This game is notoriously tight-lipped about information that might help you enjoy it under the banner of find out IC, which makes this game very newbie unfriendly by the end of the day, sacrificing accessibility on the altar of... immersion, I suppose?

The second point being that there is a barrier to interaction in which people tend to only talk to established characters is true for Armageddon, and true for a lot of MUDs. People sit afk at the bar for hours rather than emote or interact with one another. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. It happens. And then their friends walk in and despite ignoring Dwarf McNewbEquipment for three hours, suddenly they're emoting up a storm. Bonus points if they're using a non-sirihish language to really drive home the exclusion.

As for the third point, a toxic community... well. I can't speak for Zambo's experience, but you least of all Seidhr should need me to remind you of the experiences I've endured at the hands of some elements in this community. I will happily provide logs, naturally, for the entertainment of the class -- but I will take the opportunity to point out that standards of evidence are required for trials, not for people expressing their opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and you don't require documentation to talk about yours if you really want to.

This really rubs me the wrong way how this is being handled. These complaints are valid. The snark and downright open hostility some criticism is being responded with is really not the ideal way forward.

Finally, I suggest the staff should take a look from everyone's favorite PR example ala mode, NolanT of Roll20 (https://www.newsweek.com/roll20-reddit-nolant-jones-apostleo-apostleoftruth-dungeons-and-dragons-ban-1142706) at what happens when you 'err on the side of caution' and assume someone is not who they say they are and take preliminary action without evidence other than a gut feeling.

Is it possible that Zambo's complaints resemble previous complaints because... you know... they're in regards to common problems that a multiple of people have experienced? Maybe?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akariel on October 10, 2018, 02:27:05 PM
There was a simple request to clarify that has yet to be met. I did mention complaints, but I asked only for a request saying 'this is me' to unlock the thread. Please stick to the topic if you wish to continue in this thread, otherwise submit as staff complaint if you have issues with our moderation policy.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 10, 2018, 02:33:05 PM
Namino,

We are offering to investigate not because we want to punish people but to instead attempt to steer the community - whether it's the GDB or Discord, into a more friendly and newbie-inclusive direction.  If that means "punishing" people to either get them to stop or simply removing them from the community entirely, we'd all be better off for it.

Your post seems to be indicating we should just listen and not do anything about problems that are reported.  If we don't take action then nothing is going to change, if the problem is as reported.

There is zero snark here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Namino on October 10, 2018, 02:36:45 PM
Quote from: seidhr on October 10, 2018, 02:33:05 PM

Your post seems to be indicating we should just listen and not do anything about problems that are reported.  If we don't take action then nothing is going to change, if the problem is as reported.

You're clearly reading a different thread than I am. You're not offering to investigate the perpetrators, but rather responded to valid criticism by preemptively locking a thread because the person who posted it 'seemed like someone else you remembered who also said mean things'.

But hey.

If there's no snark here, there's no snark here, right?

Quote from: seidhr
The Artist formerly known as Mastercrafting - aka wah wha wah wah nobody can mastercraft anymore!1!!11

QuoteThe Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 10, 2018, 02:42:15 PM
Please not on this thread... we're so close to actually accomplishing something here.   :'(
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: yousuff on October 10, 2018, 02:46:56 PM
I think you're being a bit unfair there Namino, you can hardly expect staff to punish someone wantonly without any actual evidence given to them. Play any online game, and try to get the people in charge of it to punish someone and they'll expect some form of proof. I also think staff isn't being too unreasonable, if the player has no proof their thread is baseless, so why shouldn't it be locked? If they have genuine reason to suspect it's someone trying to stir the pot fair enough.

Edit: Moe why are you so agreeable. Here's your second +1
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 10, 2018, 02:47:36 PM
When I say "here", I mean in the this thread - when we offered to look into the problems Zambo reported.  This was a genuine offer, by not just one - but two admins, and should not be misconstrued as anything else.

The other thread (discussing an entirely different set of topics), that you are quoting, I was admittedly snarky and apologized for it - in that same thread.  You're attempting to set up a straw man.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 10, 2018, 03:23:13 PM
Not a vet. Sorry the other thread got closed because it was a troll. Not sure I can reminisce about the good ol' days as well as most of the community because I was doing timestables when this game had all of its content available.

My gripe is that I resent staff for making it so I could never experience half of the stuff I decided to play the game for. Mantises, halfling, and gith I never got an opportunity to play. By the time I had enough karma to play a magic user they were all neutered and the unique ones I was really interested in were completely removed yet remain in the game as little more than a salute to the once deep lore. Literally all I know about these PCs is what people mutter about on this board and the junk still floating on the helpfiles.

What kind of request do I put in to complain about ruining an entire aesthetic?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 04:44:44 PM
Oh. I just read Zambo's other thread. Yeah. Definitely looks like a troll post made by someone who wanted to shittalk and advertise Arx on another game's forum. Considering it was done by an anonymous GDB account with posts only made in the troll post, GDB account was created 2 days ago, despite his claim to be playing for 3 months. A lot of very circumstantial, but still believable evidence. Easily dispelled if the gdb poster would attach some identity to his account, like for example his player account. Otherwise, I myself choose to read it as a troll who's not even playing the game.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on October 10, 2018, 04:50:39 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 10, 2018, 02:58:06 AM
By the way. I'd love some steadfast statements about celven culture. For example I always thought about agorophobia for celves. Until during a discussion, it was pointed to me that it's actually nowhere to be seen in any of their docs. So much that I began to doubt it and eventually discarded it. Evidently, it is indeed a canon, except a new player would not know it, until they headbutt it.  So unrelated to the topic of this thread itself, I think we should write up some appropriate Celven lore helpfile.

I was actually, denied karma for this... and when pointing it out, out of genuine confusion, I was met with being called a lawyer... and basically that, "It is known.". The only (vague) references provided, were suggestions, that staff have made posts on the gdb (couldnt find), and "tribal docs", which I reread, and found absolutely nothing about celves, at all.

I, too, would like to see the docs brought up, and kept in line, with the staff expectation. It's a huge turn off, to be punished for not knowing something, when it is NOT INCLUDED in the docs, in ANY way at all.

As someone, who is very meticulous about pouring over docs, and wanting to know and understand the game world my pcs inhabit, it was... extremely frustrating. Less for being wrong, and more, because there was no chance, that I could have been right. It's like, stepping on a land mine, and being berated for not knowing, I was in a mine field. I should know... how? How should I know? Ridiculous!

Prior to this, I'd been having a really great time, and was setting aside more time for the game, than in the year before. Now, I log in because I feel obligated, and log off minutes later, because I'm not feeling it anymore.

Whats even worse is, nobody on staff had said a thing about it, on my prior elves. Nothing. If it's so big of a deal, you'll deny karma and get yourselves upset about it, WHY would you ignore it for SO LONG? Do you just sit on it, waiting, for a chance to surprise punish people?

It looks extremely petty, and no doubt why so many people think, that staff is out to get them.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: valeria on October 10, 2018, 05:26:42 PM
I stop playing periodically, usually with family stuff involved. After I left and came back the first time, I got in with Fantasy Writer, who hooked me in. I felt treated unfairly in a sponsored roll, UnderSeven talked me down IRL and explained how staff might see it. Talia kept me around a while with great communication and stellar plots. I was gone a while because the world got shitty and the community got toxic, and then Path dragged me back for a while.

Right now, I'm gone after feeling Too Queer To Be Welcome Here (somewhere along the spectrum of too gay to function). I do periodically peruse the forums and intend to return eventually maybe probably. Probably in a role where I don't have to log into the forums. I don't have enough self-control not to read regularly when I do have to log on clan boards, and I enjoy the game more the less that I'm talking OOCly with folks about it. But since I play mostly crafters and now that feels very limited to me, who knows? I don't think it matters that much. I miss creating cooperative stories, but I don't miss the stress.

There is a pile of small things that I've begun dissatisfied with that have grown to be large things. The sorc nerf and gicker changes, even though I never played them. People who are driven to debate rather than discuss, on the forums. Recently, the crafting changes.

I can't remember where I was going with this, but I've been on WoW lately instead. It's just easier there, quick fun, even though I miss the heart-wrenching and heart-stopping drama.

Edit to add: I remembered my point on my drive home.  I'll play until something disgruntles me, really seriously disgruntles me, usually in combination with some major life-affecting RL stuff going on that puts it in perspective, and I realize that it's silly to be so upset over a game.  Then I'll quit playing for a while until the nostalgia factor kicks in and I come back.  Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 11, 2018, 05:06:20 AM
Quote from: Zambo on October 10, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

The skepticism isn't unfounded, Zambo. For the last 4 months, my business has sort of been running itself, so I've had an absolutely CRAZY amount of free time, which I've spent playing Arm and logged into the Discord. In that time, while I can't say I read every single message on discord, I've read a lot of them. You said there was blatant racism and sexism in the discord. That isn't something the community here tolerates, not even a little. In the last 4 months, I don't recall a single instance of "blatand racism or sexism" on the discord.

So, in the absence of proof in the form of something as simple as a screenshot, or even an explanation of your accusation, you'll have to excuse staff and the community at large for being skeptical. This is, in my experience, an extremely liberal community of players, and the behavior you're talking about would normally be called out instantly on the discord, if it happened.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 11, 2018, 11:25:07 AM
I think he was on the Shadowboard discord and didn't realize it.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 11, 2018, 05:34:24 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 11, 2018, 05:06:20 AM
Quote from: Zambo on October 10, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

The skepticism isn't unfounded, Zambo. For the last 4 months, my business has sort of been running itself, so I've had an absolutely CRAZY amount of free time, which I've spent playing Arm and logged into the Discord. In that time, while I can't say I read every single message on discord, I've read a lot of them. You said there was blatant racism and sexism in the discord. That isn't something the community here tolerates, not even a little. In the last 4 months, I don't recall a single instance of "blatand racism or sexism" on the discord.

So, in the absence of proof in the form of something as simple as a screenshot, or even an explanation of your accusation, you'll have to excuse staff and the community at large for being skeptical. This is, in my experience, an extremely liberal community of players, and the behavior you're talking about would normally be called out instantly on the discord, if it happened.

Related to this, I think the Arm community goes out of their way to a fault trying to be accommodating. Honestly, this is one of those communities I point to that have been warped and ruined by agenda in some ways. Thankfully the weirdest attempts are short-lived. It just seems so silly to me that people will outcry and mince to get their way so they can virtue signal for a crowd of less than 300 people.

This is an escapist roleplaying game. I come here to kill and be a bigot and fart (all in game of course). Either this newby is a troll or bruises like a fruit and should probably avoid the internet. God help them if they stumble onto Reddit...

Quote from: valeria on October 10, 2018, 05:26:42 PM

Right now, I'm gone after feeling Too Queer To Be Welcome Here (somewhere along the spectrum of too gay to function).

I find it hard to believe that you have difficulty being represented in a a game where being homosexual is so mundane and boring to the IC population. How would you prefer to be portrayed? Or is it that you have difficulty dealing with the community, because I think everyone on here is extremely supportive regarding orientation. Maybe you're getting some scary PMs? I dunno.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 11, 2018, 05:54:52 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on October 11, 2018, 05:34:24 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 11, 2018, 05:06:20 AM
Quote from: Zambo on October 10, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
Veterans would have a better time if the staff and other veterans received criticism with concern instead of skepticism.

Stop treating newbies like they're stupid. Are you sure you're reading the right board? Yes I am. Are you sure you're reading the right Discord? Yes I am. Are you sure you're not a troll? Yes I am.

The skepticism isn't unfounded, Zambo. For the last 4 months, my business has sort of been running itself, so I've had an absolutely CRAZY amount of free time, which I've spent playing Arm and logged into the Discord. In that time, while I can't say I read every single message on discord, I've read a lot of them. You said there was blatant racism and sexism in the discord. That isn't something the community here tolerates, not even a little. In the last 4 months, I don't recall a single instance of "blatand racism or sexism" on the discord.

So, in the absence of proof in the form of something as simple as a screenshot, or even an explanation of your accusation, you'll have to excuse staff and the community at large for being skeptical. This is, in my experience, an extremely liberal community of players, and the behavior you're talking about would normally be called out instantly on the discord, if it happened.

Related to this, I think the Arm community goes out of their way to a fault trying to be accommodating. Honestly, this is one of those communities I point to that have been warped and ruined by agenda in some ways. Thankfully the weirdest attempts are short-lived. It just seems so silly to me that people will outcry and mince to get their way so they can virtue signal for a crowd of less than 300 people.

This is an escapist roleplaying game. I come here to kill and be a bigot and fart (all in game of course). Either this newby is a troll or bruises like a fruit and should probably avoid the internet. God help them if they stumble onto Reddit...

Quote from: valeria on October 10, 2018, 05:26:42 PM

Right now, I'm gone after feeling Too Queer To Be Welcome Here (somewhere along the spectrum of too gay to function).

I find it hard to believe that you have difficulty being represented in a a game where being homosexual is so mundane and boring to the IC population. How would you prefer to be portrayed? Or is it that you have difficulty dealing with the community, because I think everyone on here is extremely supportive regarding orientation. Maybe you're getting some scary PMs? I dunno.

Many are supportive. Some don't care one way or another. A few have issues but I rarely ever see those issues mentioned on the GDB or in Discord. And some would prefer not to have to hear about sexual preference of the players at all, because it's SUCH a non-issue and they'd prefer to leave the sex talk to locked apartments in character, or their bedroom, in real life.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 11, 2018, 06:25:05 PM
I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 11, 2018, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: boog on October 11, 2018, 06:25:05 PM
I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.

Not trying to say this doesn't happen, but honestly, I haven't seen this at all in the last few years I've been playing, with the exception of the occasional openly sexist newbie rocking the tall, muscular physique. I did see it once upon a time in Days of Yore, but the playerbase seems to have matured a lot since then when it comes to their reactions to non-normative relationships.

If it's still being pushed back against, that sucks. To that I say, come back and play characters who react appropriately. More representation can only be a good thing, so that we can continue to push back against OOC prejudices surfacing IG. Ultimately people should be allowed to play what they're comfortable playing as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's fun or somehow go against game rules & documentation.



edited for hopeful clarity.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 11, 2018, 09:19:57 PM
Yes. I agree with above.

This isn't a game about non-normative relationships, I would argue. Personally, I prefer to play characters who are essentially asexual, sinply because I find mudsexing to be somewhat appalling, regardless of coded gender. That said, no one should bat an eye when you decide to play a character seeking those relationships.

The problem with said characters is that of what I've seen they're the one schtick. Just like dwarves who only like to spar characters who only like to push OOC agenda must be a drag to play. They're pretty one note and boring to RP around. Though that's simply my experience. Thankfully, I feel like people would rather play characters they enjoy so my escapism is left mostly untouched.

This is a derail. Can we get back to pining for staff to make the game gud again?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 11, 2018, 09:49:56 PM
I think we were addressing a very well loved and well respected veteran who did not feel welcome here because of the aforementioned topic, so no, it wasn't truly a derail -- it was a glimpse into an estranged veteran's perspective, after all. I would love to see Valeria back and to play with her again. I would love to play with everyone again. I simply can't find the inspiration for doing so, especially when I've no idea what's going on, and all of the other things I mentioned previously. :/

Another small suggestion: Have a newly stickied post (every few months) in the staff section of the GDB to highlight very important code changes and game happenings? I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I don't truly have time to wade into some topics and I need the quick and dirty version of what's going on, simply to be reimmersed and intrigued enough to hop back in.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 11, 2018, 10:56:59 PM
I was trying to reign in the topic by saying my post was getting a little far off.

But your post makes an interesting point. Maybe the staff aren't interested in impressing veterans, estranged or not. You said it yourself. You just can't find the inspiration to play and there are well loved and respected veterans who don't play. Why are their voices important? You just admitted to not being part of the community. Would it be okay to try and vote in a country you no longer live in? It would make me sad to think that they don't listen, but I'm having a hard time blaming them considering everyone is admitting to being a nonelement. Lol

Is it just me or are there more regulars here who would prefer to play the game GDB rather than Armageddon?

As an aside, personally? I find this "back in my day", "I've been playing for ten+ years so listen here" type attitudes to be a really basic form of gatekeeping and probably a much bigger factor for scaring off newbies than anything aside from the learning curve. The "real fan" mentality is essentially the death nell for every fandom/community.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 11, 2018, 11:19:49 PM
I don't think that anyone is gatekeeping or saying anything is superior. We simply want to be updated with what's going on, because we are a playerbase that is getting older. We want a little more variety than just Allanak and a dusty old Outpost. I think people are allowed to pine. I don't think staff are bending over for any of these wishes, however. But I also think voicing them and the discontent we've experienced, that has kept us away from a game we frequented on a daily basis, might be illuminating for some staff, and other players, who might not think the same way.

Nobody needs to be impressed to play a game. They just have to feel that there's something there for them. And with the limitations that some players feel the game has been strangled with (please note, beyond Tuluk, IDGAF about magickers or classes, though I will say limiting MCs doesn't seem at all conducive since beyond their tedium, they're not hard requests to take care of -- from personal experience as former staff), many players, new and old, might not think there's anything left for them. Maybe there isn't. Maybe a compromise can be made. But we won't know until we discuss it, politely.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 12, 2018, 12:22:05 AM
Oh. I didn't get that at all, but I wasn't a part of that debate. Maybe we should ask for clarification before assuming it's that. Maybe it is. I dunno.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Harmless on October 12, 2018, 12:44:19 AM
Quote from: boog on October 11, 2018, 06:25:05 PM
I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.

Well, probably quite a lot happening that isn't public. The fact that it isn't public probably speaks volumes about roleplayed attitudes in game. I feel like such interactions are incongruent with my understanding of Zalanthan culture. When such attitudes about the game's culture are replicated by staff, I feel disappointed. But, it's also endemic in the playerbase.



Quote from: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

I would like to point out that these kinds of attitude are what was the greatest let-down in that thread. Shooting down discussion. Not that I wish to bring that topic back up, but just to say that attitudes and posts like this are what was referred to above as a "urge to debate and not discuss" in this community.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 12, 2018, 01:11:03 AM
Quote from: Harmless on October 12, 2018, 12:44:19 AM
I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship.

I admit to making jokes IC that could be taken that way, but only if you're specifically at the ready to defend an agenda, I think. For instance:

1. Making a reference to a person bending over to take it in the ass from a Templar, relating that to how they're grovelling to said Templar. Same exact comment could be made to a male or female, but generally only someone particularly prepared to defend an OOC agenda would take issue with it being said to a male as some sort of slight against homosexuality, imo.

or

2. Making sexual innuendo-styled joke about one guy blowin another guy. Not that anything was wrong with that, just that it was jokingly suggested, such as,

Two guys hanging out at a table, having a moment as one gives the other some sort of gift. They get lost in a happy exchange of pleasantries while the other people at the table were making serious plans. The sergeant speaks up: "A'right, enough! Suck his dick a'ready so we kin git back ta what needs done."

I don't consider that not being accepting of non-hetero relationships, in either case. The same sort of comment could be made if it were a guy and a girl having that discussion, and no one would bat an eye. But because some people are particularly defensive about non-hetero relationships, they might see that same comment as poking fun at it.

Any time there is the possibility of someone either meaning to be offensive, or not meaning to be, I think it's safest just to assume the latter, and keep yourself sane and happy.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 12, 2018, 01:18:39 AM
It's a casual disregard of tender male friendship via bravado rooted in homophobia.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 12, 2018, 01:26:24 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 12, 2018, 01:18:39 AM
It's a casual disregard of tender male friendship via bravado rooted in homophobia.

So what is it if the scene is identical, but it's a male and a female? What if the Sergeant is a female, too?

That's bullshit. Sorry, but it is. If treating 2 people interacting the same, regardless of sex and orientation causes someone to immediately jump to feelings of OOC offense, then the problem is with them, not the people around them. Assuming everyone is a homophobe is just as bad, or possibly even worse than BEING the homophobe, because it stymies communication and understanding.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Harmless on October 12, 2018, 03:01:43 AM
For the record, I don't think either of your examples are really what concern me regarding homophobia. Because I didn't intend to further derail I think we should save further discussion for another year or decade

In an attempt to salvage the original topic, I do think some fatigue over longrunning arguments like this one which exists between players but also between staff and players (but as I have always said, nearly all staff were and even ARE players), has a lot of vets feeling checked out.

.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:48:32 AM
Quote from: Delirium on October 11, 2018, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: boog on October 11, 2018, 06:25:05 PM
I actually very rarely see any sort of non-hetero relationships in game. I see people making fun of characters by insinuating homosexuality more than I've ever seen any sort of 'spectrum', if you will, relationship. So, I kinda understand what Valeria's saying here.

Not trying to say this doesn't happen, but honestly, I haven't seen this at all in the last few years I've been playing, with the exception of the occasional openly sexist newbie rocking the tall, muscular physique. I did see it once upon a time in Days of Yore, but the playerbase seems to have matured a lot since then when it comes to their reactions to non-normative relationships.

If it's still being pushed back against, that sucks. To that I say, come back and play characters who react appropriately. More representation can only be a good thing, so that we can continue to push back against OOC prejudices surfacing IG. Ultimately people should be allowed to play what they're comfortable playing as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's fun or somehow go against game rules & documentation.
edited for hopeful clarity.

It comes up in some of the weirdest places and times. Like when a noble tries to explain an enmity between another character   by literally describing them as man hating lesbians. Or when a homosexual couple are described as afraid of dick or vagina.

Most of the time it's just recurrent, weak, cheap shots over any expressed sexuality by some pretty clueless players.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ghanima on October 12, 2018, 04:22:36 AM
Man, you guys really need to dial it down with this whole getting your feelings hurt business.

I could have sworn this game took place in a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. How you all gonna inhabit characters in that kind of setting when you're off getting offended over every little thing?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 12, 2018, 04:27:28 AM
Quote from: ghanima on October 12, 2018, 04:22:36 AM
Man, you guys really need to dial it down with this whole getting your feelings hurt business.

I could have sworn this game took place in a harsh, post-apocalyptic desert world. How you all gonna inhabit characters in that kind of setting when you're off getting offended over every little thing?

It's just a sign of laziness, of people not truly inhabiting this alien desert world of Zalanthas. Get more invested in the world's flavor, more creative, think differently. Don't just settle for "drop pack, faggot." It's jarring for those who are already inhabiting characters here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Cind on October 12, 2018, 04:45:17 AM
I kind of agree. The only reason I get butthurt over something in the game is because I have bipolar, since pretty much EVERYONE I SEE is a responsible player---- or at least pretending to be under threat of banning. It was only one instance, actually--- my witch elf was (I assume) passed by in the street by a Templar and their entourage and was wayed and charged taxes for existing. I was really sure I had not seen this person, and it got me pretty mad in a way that I expressed in the game and I have always felt bad about it. Once the bipolar fell away I no longer felt like that, but it was kind of too late.

I remember one newbie remarking, how can an elf or a human woman beat a human man in a fight? But they were expressing it in a way that was obviously newbie, as we all know strength is not a factor influenced by gender.

I was involved in a threesome couple with two human males who liked each other (I was a girl, but we were basically a threesome) and the only reason we weren't very obvious about it was the fact that they were both wanted and I myself have terrible playtimes, only really being a reliable game presence when everyone is asleep.

That's pretty much everything I have to contribute because I have literally never remembered outright homophobia or sexism in the game.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ghanima on October 12, 2018, 05:16:55 AM
Quote from: BadSkeelz
Don't just settle for "drop pack, faggot." It's jarring for those who are already inhabiting characters here.

Has that ever happened in game? Ever?

We have posters demanding that players RP their sexuality more in public and because they're not that's why the game has taken a downward turn.

If the expression of your sexuality is that important, why not pursue that kind of RP on a MUSH which is designed to facilitate these sorts of things? I'm not saying don't do it in Arm, but let's please not pretend that because the rest of us aren't out flaunting our character's (or more than likely our own) sexuality IC that the game is somehow suffering as a result. If everyone wants to publicly express their sexuality in game, great; if no one wants to express their sexuality, that's fine too. Without realising it, you guys are basically saying "I'm being marginalized because the rest of you aren't public enough with your characters sexuality. I demand more of you make your sexual expressions (particularly non-heterosexual expressions) public".

Is any of that really necessary to enjoy a game where we're trying to chop each other up with bone swords? To get back on topic, if anything has truly estranged a veteran, I bet it's the above kind of mindset. Lets stop nitpicking and getting our feelings hurt and get back to a more meaningful discussion.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 07:18:14 AM
Quote from: ghanima on October 12, 2018, 05:16:55 AM
We have posters demanding that players RP their sexuality more in public and because they're not that's why the game has taken a downward turn.

As one of the residents who played vixens ...

Quote from: ghanima on October 12, 2018, 05:16:55 AM
Has that ever happened in game on the GDB? Ever?

I don't remember such a post.


I think the general consensus is that the majority of veteran players who can't find the time to play still wish they did, that says a lot for how much we love the game.

I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed

We need a recruitment and retention staff member. Someone who  goes through the accounts and emails once active players.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Malken on October 12, 2018, 08:20:01 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Yes. Except I don't use Armageddon as my last bastion of humanity's social rights and P.C. utopia. You're not going to change anyone's mind here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 12, 2018, 08:43:10 AM
I will assail you with queer propaganda until you are assimilated.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: valeria on October 12, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
In an interesting turn, I wasn't talking about IG homosexual relationships at all, though there are issues there that I've experienced.  Brokkr was correct that I was referring to this thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53979.0.html) as the reason why I initially stopped playing.  I got upset, I talked with staff, and they were very supportive about me taking a break.

It turned into a hiatus.  In context:
Quote from: valeria on October 10, 2018, 05:26:42 PM
Edit to add: I remembered my point on my drive home.  I'll play until something disgruntles me, really seriously disgruntles me, usually in combination with some major life-affecting RL stuff going on that puts it in perspective, and I realize that it's silly to be so upset over a game.  Then I'll quit playing for a while until the nostalgia factor kicks in and I come back.  Rinse and repeat.

In this case, the things that have happened IRL include a family member's cancer diagnosis, getting back into writing (I wrote another novel, yay!), and the fact that NaNo is coming up so I really don't have time.  In other words, the same RL stuff a lot of people have mentioned as reasons for drifting away, and the kind of stuff that is not fixable.

Why am I not sure I'll come back off this break?  Well, like I also mentioned in my original post.  Most of the features I find interesting (magick) or engaging (custom crafting) have been seriously restricted and relegated to secondary features (subguilds).  It sounds like combat has been improved and options expanded, but I am not a big combat person, I'm a social player, so there isn't excitement offsetting my disappointment with these changes.  Big stories also engage me, but the last time I personally experienced an HRPT was years ago.

The collaborative stories are a major draw.  The people in the community used to be a major draws.  For instance, I clicked into this thread only because I saw that MaurauderMoe started it and his posts are usually highly thoughtful.

But reading the thread and posting in it has highlighted what, for me, is another downside to playing, and one of the reasons why I don't particularly want to return.  To play in a clan (which is my usual go to), I'm required to log into the forums.  Where I do not fell welcome and don't want to spend my time.

I mean, I logged back into the forums because someone PM'd me, I see the thread and I'm like, I wonder if anyone else I know has said anything.  And it's gone like this.

The quality of these forums has seriously declined over the years.  Instead of discussing the possible upsides and downsides of changes, threads invariably descend into mud-slinging and insults by what seems to be the same small subset of people get threads locked.

Citations:
Quote from: ghanima on October 12, 2018, 04:22:36 AM
Man, you guys really need to dial it down with this whole getting your feelings hurt business.
Quote from: Malken on October 12, 2018, 08:20:01 AM
Except I don't use Armageddon as my last bastion of humanity's social rights and P.C. utopia. You're not going to change anyone's mind here.
Whatever seidh posted, which came off as insults masquerading as humor during my brief skim.

I miss the good ol' days of discussing changes with people like Synthesis and Lizzie, with whom I rarely agree, but where we had a discussions about ideas and about the game instead of debates about the people posting.  Since pretty much every thread derails into personal insults by a small subsection of people here, it's hard to contribute to discussion about the game while avoiding these people.  Which makes me want to avoid the source.  Which definitely contributes to me not wanting to return. 

I suppose I'd find a block feature on the forums very helpful.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ghanima on October 12, 2018, 09:14:18 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 07:18:14 AM

I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed.

I agree whole heartedly. As far as I can tell, judging both by on here, Discord, and through personal conversations, not one player agrees with the recent changes, including that Tuluk is still just sitting in limbo (destroying it completely would be preferable to the current awkwardness).

I get the impression staff dislike reversing any change, not because it isn't a worthy consideration, but because it would feel like a blow to one's ego. However it shouldn't be. You're not admitting defeat by saying ok we're going to bring back full elementalosts again and see how things go (for example). Large corporations go back and forth on company policy all the time, adjusting here and there as time goes by. Armageddon just implements changes without being willing to test it out and see how well it's received first. And I think this falls down to ego. You don't want to go back on a change because you think you'll be seen as having failed. It's not failing to try something out for a while, see that everyone dislikes it, then undoing the change. If anything, it's admirable.

Perhaps most disappointing for me in this thread is that staff have been extremely unenthusiastic in their responses. Or to put it another way, extremely predictable (not to mention defensive). Do something different for a change, guys. Seriously. I'm not ragging on you, I'm offering encouragement. You just might find the disgruntled player base praising you for a change.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Harmless on October 12, 2018, 09:19:58 AM
When people roleplay homophobic anachronistic attitudes, my feelings aren't hurt, my immersion is.

Anyway, stop blending OOC and IC attitudes. It goes both ways; OOC insensitivities and crassness (which would be any negative value applied on the basis of gender expression or sexual preference) do not belong IC, and IC crassness and harsh attitudes should not bleed onto the forums, yet they always do.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Decameron on October 12, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
This is just a reminder that we're discussing the changes we've noticed over time and our current perspective on the game.

The game can't exist without staff, and the game cannot exist without the players.

I am not picking sides and I am definitely not on staff, but every time a staff comments it seems we nit-pick that they aren't excited enough, doing enough, that their tone is off, etc. We expect to be heard, we may feel biased against, but we aren't willing to drop our own biases or listen.

Some of us are angry and some of us are tired of the same old shit, not expecting anything new. We're all passionate about this game, it's something we've sunk years of effort into. Years.

This thread isn't something that would've existed 5-10 years back. Especially with staff inputting, at all. We can learn from past mistakes, but don't let it ruin us going forward and don't assume everything is negative or bashing. This is an opportunity to hear each other out and try to understand each other's perceptive. What is expected, what should be expected. How we can do better, how we feel we've failed. If we didn't feel this game was great and could be even better, we wouldn't be here. This conversation wouldn't exist.

Take advantage of that.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 12, 2018, 09:52:47 AM
Quote from: valeria on October 12, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
But reading the thread and posting in it has highlighted what, for me, is another downside to playing, and one of the reasons why I don't particularly want to return.  To play in a clan (which is my usual go to), I'm required to log into the forums.  Where I do not fell welcome and don't want to spend my time.

I would hope that this would be something you could overcome. I doubt there is a single player here who feels welcomed with open arms by every other member of the community. As in real life, there are going to be people you get along with, and people you don't. In an internet community, unlike IRL, you can't separate into cliques of people you like and exclude the people you don't. Yes, it's a reminder that we live in an imperfect world, but it really shouldn't be something that bothers you so much. I'm quite certain there are posters in this very thread that despise me. I'm not bothered one iota.

If I recall correctly, from years and years ago on this forum, you and I haven't always seen eye to eye on every topic. But disagreement doesn't equal dislike, at least for me. I'm sure you're a fantastic roleplayer, and the community at large would love to have you back. I'd love to have you back, and while I'm not afraid of sharing my opinions on things without much of a filter, I sincerely hope that nothing I say, or have said causes you to feel offended or unwelcome.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 10:06:34 AM
Quote from: Decameron on October 12, 2018, 09:38:32 AM
This is just a reminder that we're discussing the changes we've noticed over time and our current perspective on the game.

The game can't exist without staff, and the game cannot exist without the players.

I am not picking sides and I am definitely not on staff, but every time a staff comments it seems we nit-pick that they aren't excited enough, doing enough, that their tone is off, etc. We expect to be heard, we may feel biased against, but we aren't willing to drop our own biases or listen.

Some of us are angry and some of us are tired of the same old shit, not expecting anything new. We're all passionate about this game, it's something we've sunk years of effort into. Years.

This thread isn't something that would've existed 5-10 years back. Especially with staff inputting, at all. We can learn from past mistakes, but don't let it ruin us going forward and don't assume everything is negative or bashing. This is an opportunity to hear each other out and try to understand each other's perceptive. What is expected, what should be expected. How we can do better, how we feel we've failed. If we didn't feel this game was great and could be even better, we wouldn't be here. This conversation wouldn't exist.

Take advantage of that.

Surrrrrre... be sensible.  THAT'S helpful.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 12, 2018, 10:08:06 AM
Quote from: valeria on October 12, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
I miss the good ol' days of discussing changes with people like Synthesis and Lizzie, with whom I rarely agree, but where we had a discussions about ideas and about the game instead of debates about the people posting.  Since pretty much every thread derails into personal insults by a small subsection of people here, it's hard to contribute to discussion about the game while avoiding these people.  Which makes me want to avoid the source.  Which definitely contributes to me not wanting to return. 

I suppose I'd find a block feature on the forums very helpful.
This is why I post less and in fewer topics than I used to. It doesn't stop me from playing and since I only work part time and have no kids, have plenty of time to play. But because folks like you (and other veterans) don't play anymore, I sometimes feel like the odd man out and as a result, play less than I used to as well.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Strongheart on October 12, 2018, 10:32:36 AM
I really enjoy that you vets do stick around! What bothers me is when people speak well of the good days but then suddenly ill and from there a constant back and forth. WAS IT WORSE OR BETTER?! I'm being facetitious but I do want to make it a point that we shouldn't ride the old high when the new one is still in the works. I believe that we should all be patient and stick around! Encourage staff to be engaged along with other players and just enjoy what you can.

Personally, I love this discussion and I am looking forward to the player meeting coming up!
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 12, 2018, 10:57:34 AM
It was better.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 12, 2018, 11:37:54 AM
I suspect around the time I left is when a drop began to occur.  The shadow boards came into existence.  There was an authoritarian air and a lot of people seemed to get banned or force stored.  Tuluk has closed.  A lot has happened since I've been gone.  The amount of players has dropped.  Peak hour players have dropped by a large chunk, to me, seemingly almost by half.

When I first came back I was feeling super excited, but after only going on five months I could see myself sluff off again, at least after my current PC goes away.  The cogs just don't seem to be running smoothly IG and storywise, and I suspect a lot of that is that I'm starved for interaction with key, long-term players that have a depth of understanding about how the game works and it's lore.  The sandbox feels very small, especially without Tuluk.

It also makes me sad that the staff is not going to consider re-opening Tuluk for at least half a year even though there was a very, positive, energetic response when re-opening it was brought up.  I'm not sure I can wait around a year or more.  We'll see.

I think one of the things I'm struggling with right now is that the lore feels soooo open ended now. 

Allanak is less brutal, and seems less about Templars and nobles that make you tremble in their wake.  It is seems more Tuluki with everyone relying on "shadow artist" pkills to prove their point.  Who you're playing seems to pale in comparison to how long you've been playing. 

There's really no way to escape from Allanak since Allanak is the only actual IG city the merchants in Luir's are only going to work to appease them.  Luir's is basically turning into a city-state that's growing and now has "mini" GMH merchants nobles.  It feels less like a rugged Outpost and more like a mini-city, but without all of the lore Tuluk has to offer.  I have a really hard time feeling immersed if I'm not playing with a few select people that anchor the story down and "get it." 

There's clearly an issue with player retention and I can see why, and I think it really has to be addressed or the game will cease to be.  It isn't so bad and toxic as to make me want to leave as I did before but the game feels very "luke-warm" on the verge of going cold.

I'm not saying staff is horrible, I much prefer some of them to staff I've formerly had and some I adore.  But I think the game must be taken in a different direction and we need to get serious about that.  The lore needs to come back to the forefront to create an immersive experience.

When I played Sweet Roll, Bo and Tanakara Driamusek and Buckle it was like there was a ghost in the machine.  The game worked.  Stories manifested and came to life.  And around the corner some staff would pop in and do something to further that plot.  The IG drought and riots.  Or someone popping in to the Master Irofel bard to slap my character in the face.  Or that one time I asked the Imms to help me RP a botched abortion and they accidentally instakilled me.   Or that time they chased us through the forest with halfings at our heels after a sorcerer kicked me into the Grey. 

But regardless of staff interaction, about 90% of that was just being surrounded by great players who made the world come alive.  People that got it made me a better roleplayer and pushed me and did things that made me go, wow so cool!  With Sweet Roll I couldn't stop playing.  There was one guy during the droughts that played a starving artist and used all of his starting coins to arm rioters then tried to buy his way out of the city.  There was PK in all of that, all of those characters were PK'd btw.  But their stories were such wild, RP'd rides.  That's what I'm missing.

I can say for certain Valera and Zoltan were in two of those tales.  Vet players are important.  Knowing the lore and making it come alive are important.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 12, 2018, 12:19:28 PM
Quote from: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Confused.  Which player was I being hostile to?

If you are meaning Valeria, I empathize with how entirely shitty that pronoun thread was for them, was fairly certain that is what they were referring to, and was trying to subtly show that.

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 07:18:14 AM
I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed

Which brings me to this. Often there is a desire Staff address a specific concern, or set of concerns. Often in a very particular way. In a certain time frame. If we don't, we aren't listening, or our egos are getting in the way. Or we are just spiteful, evil people.

Empathizing with the concerns (in this case estranged veterans, like Valeria) so that over time they are kept in mind as we make decisions, all the while trying to reconcile that with the direction and goals for the game world overall, is more what I find the experience to be like. It isn't necessarily the fastest approach, or one that gives warm fuzzy to folks because their idea is directly implemented so we must be responsive...but it is one that better allows me to process fragmented and often directionally contradictory concerns and address them in the context of the direction and overall goals for the game.

Long winded way of saying there are reasons you don't see us just flip flop when we've received feedback from players.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: valeria on October 12, 2018, 12:38:27 PM
It's not that the good ol' days were uniformly better or something. I mean, player/staff disagreements, miscommunications, people feeling shut down and shut out, changes people don't like, etc etc etc, have always been around. Some changes have even been positive. Like, I remember a time the forums were nearly stagnant because no improvements were being made anyway because the collective breath was being held for Arm 2, and asking for anything was like screaming into the wind. The code release updates, the rollout in advance of prospective changes and requests for feedback, the ability of storytellers to engage with their clans again, I'd consider those positive changes.

It's been said, both by staff in the distant past trying to shut people down and by people pushing their positions recently, that if you don't like how things are, maybe this isn't the game for you. That's totally the case. People will depart if it isn't the game for them. That doesn't mean that changes are bad or shouldn't be made, or that staff is uniformly evil, or that vets are taking their ball and going home, or something like that. It's more like, when given the choice between two options of things to do after work, I'm going to go with the one that's more engaging and less stressful. And there are reasons the game has become less engaging and more stressful, for me, personally.

The question seemed to be, why are people who have left not engaged, and what do they struggle with when they do come back. I certainly don't have all the info or know what's in dev or anything like that, and people generally don't know what's in your brain unless you tell them. Not because I expect the game to change for me, but because I want to WANT to play again. I suspect that's the case for most of the vets who did post here.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 12, 2018, 12:45:34 PM
You can't please everyone in the community no matter what you do. People always have different ideas about the way things should be.
For example, before the class changes, it seems like everyone was saying to combine the rogue types into one class. Staff combined them
into one class, and now everyone thinks that class is OP. The fact is, some folks think the changes we've been through are good, and some
don't. Some folks want things to be the same they were ten years ago, some don't. Glad to discuss changes, past or future, but let's just
realize that no matter what direction the MUD takes, it may never be exactly as we picture it. I'm just ranting now, so I'll shut up.
Love you all, players and staff both.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 12, 2018, 12:57:51 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 12, 2018, 12:19:28 PM
Quote from: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Confused.  Which player was I being hostile to?

If you are meaning Valeria, I empathize with how entirely shitty that pronoun thread was for them, was fairly certain that is what they were referring to, and was trying to subtly show that.

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 07:18:14 AM
I see lots of concerns voiced over and over again.  I wish staff would address these things. By address I mean change/change back. I have a feeling veterans would find more time to play if the coded changes that they dislike are reversed

Which brings me to this. Often there is a desire Staff address a specific concern, or set of concerns. Often in a very particular way. In a certain time frame. If we don't, we aren't listening, or our egos are getting in the way. Or we are just spiteful, evil people.

Empathizing with the concerns (in this case estranged veterans, like Valeria) so that over time they are kept in mind as we make decisions, all the while trying to reconcile that with the direction and goals for the game world overall, is more what I find the experience to be like. It isn't necessarily the fastest approach, or one that gives warm fuzzy to folks because their idea is directly implemented so we must be responsive...but it is one that better allows me to process fragmented and often directionally contradictory concerns and address them in the context of the direction and overall goals for the game.

Long winded way of saying there are reasons you don't see us just flip flop when we've received feedback from players.

The way you wrote, 'Go figure,' with the way that some people perceive particular members of staff did come off as crass... apparently to a few people, according to the posts in this thread. I thought it was a little insensitive myself because I wasn't aware of the pronoun debate or what happened in that thread.

I think it's a customer service thing, again. I think you've always got to be very careful about how you type things and consider how they might be perceived, especially when you can not discern tone from text and there is a general player feeling that staff are at times hostile. :)

Anyway, of course, no one is ever completely happy with anything. But I think players and staff mostly want the same thing for the game and that is for it to progress and continue. If we can compromise and brainstorm up ideas on how to make that happen, I think that'd be a beautiful thing.

But there is a lot holding the game sort of hostage when it comes to changes being made due to red tape and having to have everyone weigh in and agree on an administrative level -- though I know you're well aware of that, Brokkr.

I think three things that would make me return to playing a lot would be:
1) Getting regular updates about the gameworld and what's going on, including a chronology update.
2) Closure on Tuluk or it reopening with an explanation of what happened via in game channels or out.
3) More in game rewards for people who rock leadership roles in the form of more power or resources (red robes, senior nobles -- shit to inspire and to get leaders to stick around for the long haul and to not become insipid).
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 12, 2018, 01:45:09 PM
Double entendre is dead.  Noted.

As a note, there are ways to advance as a templar.  Into a Ministry, and then within the Ministry.  Coded stuff that no templar has gotten since I redid them a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Namino on October 12, 2018, 02:01:49 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 12, 2018, 01:45:09 PM
As a note, there are ways to advance as a templar.  Into a Ministry, and then within the Ministry.  Coded stuff that no templar has gotten since I redid them a couple of years ago.

I'm curious as to if you diagnose this as a lack of player interest or effort in achieving that advancement, or rather instead advancement itself needs some looking at? I know at least a couple of templars who have actively made noise about going up for ministry but nothing ever came of it before they inevitably died.

I only bring this up because it's an equally common complaint I hear that things like minor merchant houses, or advancement within a GMH beyond a certain level are often stymied because the requirements are rough for people who aren't looking to turn Armageddon into a second job. Taking that in hand along with the fact that often when staff teams change it causes a massive shake up in on-going player efforts, including self promotion, I'd be curious to hear opinions on that.

If no one's 'unlocked' content that you took the time to design, and it's been a few years after its been released, isn't that cause for concern?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Raptor_Dan on October 12, 2018, 02:07:09 PM
I'm not good with communication when it's not IG, heck, maybe not even then, idk, but... I have to post, something got mentioned that made it imperative for me. I'll try and make my points clear and succint.

#1- Try Again. I feel for Zambo, and anyone else who shows up and either gets treated unfairly, or can't get involved with other players, even at the waterholes.

I try hard to include people, especially newbies. Always newbies, actually. If you've gotten shafted by idling PCs at the bar, I'm sorry I wasn't there. If you continue to try, you will be adding to the numbers of people who are.

If you've lost in your attempt to change the world, to the point of losing hope, I'm sorry. Please keep trying. Add to the numbers of those still hopeful, chiseling away at percieved walls. It's important to all of us.

#2- Get rid of the veil. I don't know exactly how to communicate this. Get rid of the veil of secrecy between staff and players, but also between IG, and OOC. Because of the rules, I've blown off dozens of friends I want to keep playing with, when they started to tell me about their PCs, or plots, or asked questions about mine. Get rid of find out IC culture, somehow, please. Make rumor boards accessible oocly, so chronology is no longer an issue.

Does all of that require a huge amount of trust? Yeah, so much.

#3- Put the story first. It's what drew everyone here, in some way. What's the story with Tulukl? If it's a good enough story that allows people to just be involved in that, the changes matter less. Some satisfaction will be achieved, this goes with everything. Was there a story behind the gicker changes? If there was, maybe the veil was too thick and I never learned it. Did it not satisfy the majority? Maybe try again.


Feel free to disregard all the minutia of my post, I feel my main points stand in a variety of ways, for both players and staff, especially when combined. You can suckl someone in, and make them an ally in most anything you want to accomplish with a good story, especially if the veil between you and them is thin and you can trust that you can expose yourself, your reasons and secrets, despite the vulnerability it creates. And if you fail... I'm sorry, please, pretty please try again.

Tl:Dr/rephrasing= Come back and don't give up hope. Explain everything, getting rid of any dividers or secrecy. Focus of the big and small details of the story you want to tell, leaving the how for later....


Ooooor this is all a crazy rant with no merit or substance. I've literally lost the ability to tell anymore.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 12, 2018, 02:25:28 PM
Quote from: Namino on October 12, 2018, 02:01:49 PM
If no one's 'unlocked' content that you took the time to design, and it's been a few years after its been released, isn't that cause for concern?

(http://imageshack.com/a/img911/783/SSh49C.gif)
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: crymerci on October 12, 2018, 03:11:52 PM
Quote from: Cind on October 12, 2018, 04:45:17 AM

I have literally never remembered outright homophobia or sexism in the game.

I did experience sexist treatment with a recent PC. Within a RL month I had multiple PCs who stalked/harassed/creeped on my PC. I don't wish to complain about any of these players or their characters. Any one of them, alone, would have simply made for a possibly interesting plotline. But the combined effect of this constant barrage was to make me, the player, feel so fucking dirty logging into that character that I didn't want to play her anymore.

The game is about conflict, and one of the things you do when you encounter another PC is to see what your PC has in conflict with them - are they the wrong race, from the wrong place, a mutant, etc. I'm just not convinced that in Zalanthas, gender or sexuality (including asexuality) should be a conflict axis. And it seems like it is, at least in some people's experience.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 12, 2018, 03:25:58 PM
I agree with the declassification of various parts of the game. The current situation results in weird distrust,  Alex Jones-ian conspiracy theories where staff can't say anything without people accusing them of being rude or attacking them (*cough* this thread *cough*), and people assuming that certain staff members are out to get them. It's all very reminiscent of schizophrenic theorists making claims about 9/11 and misreading lack of desire to disclose as an admission of guilt.

Regardless, I think more disclosure on plans and current (and past) events would benefit everyone greatly.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:29:30 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 12, 2018, 08:20:01 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Yes. Except I don't use Armageddon as my last bastion of humanity's social rights and P.C. utopia. You're not going to change anyone's mind here.

I think we can accommodate players different from ourselves without turning it into some culture war.

Apologies to Brokkr, I might have misread them.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 12, 2018, 04:18:51 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 12, 2018, 01:45:09 PM
Double entendre is dead.  Noted.

As a note, there are ways to advance as a templar.  Into a Ministry, and then within the Ministry.  Coded stuff that no templar has gotten since I redid them a couple of years ago.

Double entendre isn't dead. It was just sort of misplaced in a thread that seems to have very little levity. Most people here seem very serious. They want to play a game and they want to make it better. That makes it hard to discern if someone is casually joking or they're being mean spirited. That's all.

And I agree with the above posters. If there are upper levels to be reached for templars and no one has gotten to them, maybe staff need to better spell out the requirements to all applying and maybe lower the bar a touch.

We also need more "things" for nobles to achieve. When on staff, I remember a very long lived noble or two who just muddled around because they had nothing else to strive for. Maybe we should look at the Senate more. Maybe we should give them the ability to direct more of their houses policies. Maybe they should be able to become house heads: why not give these a shot if someone is worthy? It'd even take a load off of staff from having to animate or consult one another for certain plots or otherwise. If a player drives their house to shame or ruin, well, that'd be their own fault. But isn't that more optimal than players becoming frustrated and storing because they can't keep doing 'things' to receive no benefit from leading?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Malken on October 12, 2018, 04:53:15 PM
Quote from: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:29:30 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 12, 2018, 08:20:01 AM
Quote from: tapas on October 12, 2018, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Malken on October 11, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
When I read what Valeria wrote, I assumed they were referring to gender non-binary pronouns.  Go figure.

Yeah, please let's not go there again, like, ever.

Why? Have you even logged on in 10 years?

As for Brokkr. It's very disappointing to see an active staff member this hostile to a player who has only ever advocated in good faith.

Yes. Except I don't use Armageddon as my last bastion of humanity's social rights and P.C. utopia. You're not going to change anyone's mind here.

I think we can accommodate players different from ourselves without turning it into some culture war.

Apologies to Brokkr, I might have misread them.

I agree with you on that, absolutely.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 12, 2018, 04:54:48 PM
When was the last senate vote? 8 years ago? With all the people pretty much consolidated to the South or a stones throw away why not have one of those and see some changes that can resonate with nobles, templars, commoners, and rinthers alike, along with anybody else within the ripplezone of the decision. That'd sure be neat watching all the various groups scramble to buy votes, make threats, etc. seems like a low effort long lasting RP boost.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Is Friday on October 12, 2018, 04:59:02 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on October 12, 2018, 04:54:48 PM
When was the last senate vote? 8 years ago? With all the people pretty much consolidated to the South or a stones throw away why not have one of those and see some changes that can resonate with nobles, templars, commoners, and rinthers alike, along with anybody else within the ripplezone of the decision. That'd sure be neat watching all the various groups scramble to buy votes, make threats, etc. seems like a low effort long lasting RP boost.
If we're talking about Senate votes that the playerbase participated in, in some way: 2015. So 3 years.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on October 12, 2018, 05:32:14 PM
Quote from: crymerci on October 12, 2018, 03:11:52 PM
I'm just not convinced that in Zalanthas, gender or sexuality (including asexuality) should be a conflict axis. And it seems like it is, at least in some people's experience.

I don't think, you will ever tune it out.

There have been a lot of comments made, about homosexuality being a negative. The Byn had a few players who who throw around, "go cry to your boyfriend", to one of our whiners, as example. There was some public shaming, of one guy, who came onto some kuraci guy, back when the kurac was still king of Luirs castle.

Never seen lesbian shame, and have noticed, it's WIDELY more accepted, and even encouraged, among pcs. Met a herm, who ended up being killed because of it, or at least that was how it was explained.

It isn't widely visible, but, just like irl, homos have it a little rougher than lesbos, especially when its a bunch of guys hanging out, playing manly mans. It's still, leaps and bounds away better, than a lot of the other rpi options, and also one of the reasons, I ended up sticking with the game.

I don't get all SJW about it, because whatever, its human to hate, it doesn't bother me, but, it is there, and it'll always be there, until there's a more pervasive equality, irl. It won't be in my gen, and probably not the next gen, but sooner or later, the internet will blur our perverted interests enough, that being hardcore straight, will be the odd one out.

My friend, a guy, who proclaims himself as "proudly straight", is into futa porn, but thinks trannies are disgusting. Nice guy, totally clueless with himself. That is, imo, how most people are, and its more funny than a problem.

Treat oddballs, as oddballs, but maybe, don't fly off the handle, like some people do. It doesn't really matter of Buff of the Byn, thinks queers are gross. There will be people who, in whatever way they can, nod along with him, or rail against him, but treat it as an ic oddity, instead of something we need to champion, on the forums.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Shabago on October 12, 2018, 06:22:05 PM
I just wished to chime in here for all of you in this thread that have taken the time to post thoughtful ideas, and meaningful feedback.

Thank you.

Truly, I appreciate this style of thread. This is just one way we move ahead as a community, whether player or staff, as a whole. Not one of you are being ignored, or dismissed. Your concerns are not being ignored or dismissed. Each post, from each of you, has been actively read. If it has yet to be discussed, it will be.

Veterans are our IG teachers to 'newbies' that come in. It's you guys who hook them in. It's you guys who use your years of experience to come up with amazing plots and stories to tell or run. Without our veterans, this game would not be half of what it is. Without our new players, this game would not be half of what it is. Each of you contributing your time, energy and creative minds to this crazy ride we all call Armageddon, I salute you.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 12, 2018, 06:24:03 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on October 12, 2018, 04:59:02 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on October 12, 2018, 04:54:48 PM
When was the last senate vote? 8 years ago? With all the people pretty much consolidated to the South or a stones throw away why not have one of those and see some changes that can resonate with nobles, templars, commoners, and rinthers alike, along with anybody else within the ripplezone of the decision. That'd sure be neat watching all the various groups scramble to buy votes, make threats, etc. seems like a low effort long lasting RP boost.
If we're talking about Senate votes that the playerbase participated in, in some way: 2015. So 3 years.

Still, I think having those be a semi-regular thing would prompt a lot of good RP. And I'm not suggesting them all being over very important dire decisions. Have it be over "important" minutea some of the time. I think, like the attention the Arena has gotten, you'd see quite a lot of participation. Especially because it's not just Borsail's baby.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akaramu on October 12, 2018, 06:28:32 PM
Quote from: Shabago on October 12, 2018, 06:22:05 PM
I just wished to chime in here for all of you in this thread that have taken the time to post thoughtful ideas, and meaningful feedback.

Thank you.

Truly, I appreciate this style of thread. This is just one way we move ahead as a community, whether player or staff, as a whole. Not one of you are being ignored, or dismissed. Your concerns are not being ignored or dismissed. Each post, from each of you, has been actively read. If it has yet to be discussed, it will be.

<3
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 12, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
Having gone through Senate plots, it was honestly not that fun. It was a frantic hassle and I felt like if I wasn't logged in 24/7 I was a bad player, or that my character was going to fail for OOC reasons, because there was so much "moving and shaking" and politicking to do. One meeting with one person takes like 2 RL hours, and if you have 4 people to talk to in the next RL week because the Senate deadline is this Saturday, well.

Maybe if you can treat Armageddon like a part-time job it'd be fun, but time-sensitive plots like that can be really difficult to pull off with out exhausting and/or alienating casual players who might otherwise have a lot to offer the game.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Is Friday on October 12, 2018, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 12, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
Having gone through Senate plots, it was honestly not that fun. It was a frantic hassle and I felt like if I wasn't logged in 24/7 I was a bad player, or that my character was going to fail for OOC reasons, because there was so much "moving and shaking" and politicking to do. One meeting with one person takes like 2 RL hours, and if you have 4 people to talk to in the next RL week because the Senate deadline is this Saturday, well.
As another participant in the Senate plot, I found the entire thing very "top heavy" because of the style of the plot. I understand the immense amount of effort staff put in to make it a great plot. I just didn't at the time (and don't looking back,) see it as having been very fun. What did I enjoy about that period in my leader PC's life? The rivalries she had and the conflict generated by competition between clans.

We don't need super fantastic world-shattering conflict. We need conflict that can be stoked and grown organically between rival leaders in the game. We need leaders empowered by staff and admins to be able to compete with others to expand their virtual organization's power. We need there to be staff partnering with leaders in game to help them achieve a reasonable, timely, organic, and fun goal which involves the most players possible.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 12, 2018, 06:39:04 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 12, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
Having gone through Senate plots, it was honestly not that fun. It was a frantic hassle and I felt like if I wasn't logged in 24/7 I was a bad player, or that my character was going to fail for OOC reasons, because there was so much "moving and shaking" and politicking to do. One meeting with one person takes like 2 RL hours, and if you have 4 people to talk to in the next RL week because the Senate deadline is this Saturday, well.

Maybe if you can treat Armageddon like a part-time job it'd be fun, but time-sensitive plots like that can be really difficult to pull off with out exhausting and/or alienating casual players who might otherwise have a lot to offer the game.

That doesn't have to be the case if they're semi-regular. There are obvious ways to improve on all of that, but I don't think calling it off completely because of casual players is a good one. You realize there are plenty of American Senators who hardly bother to showup to various votes in real life, right? If that's the noble you're playing, then that's the noble you are playing. Couldn't you also deligate an aide or something to attend and pass along a prewritten document that states you vote a certain way? Maybe that document gets switched as part of a plot? Controversy! Betrayal!

Again, not advocating for world shattering plots, but an outlet for player autonomy. There are probably kinks we could have ironed out if it didn't happen once in a blue moon. That said, I agree with the feeling of your post, but I think suggestions would go further to help than saying "do what you're supposed to do, but better". Unless I'm misreading something.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 12, 2018, 08:48:39 PM
The senators themselves are the most senior of nobles from the various houses.  PCs weren't voting directly, but rather trying to influence things and deal-making amongst houses.  In the last one, the way the vote came out was directly a result of what the PCs did, so in a sense they did vote in that respect.

But yeah - I can appreciate how people felt like the plot was top heavy, due to that.  Short of Tek himself and the black robes, that's as high up as politics in Nak gets.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 09:39:57 PM
At this point, VETERANS!!

1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?


I'm really glad staff has chimed in. I'm really glad they've said they're listening. It maintains my hope.

I'm glad we've been able to reign in the tempers and keep in topic...ish.

Thanks again for starting this, Moe.
Thank you Brokkr for explaining things when people couldn't decipher your meaning or intention.

This thread is making me wanna play again.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 12, 2018, 10:58:56 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 09:39:57 PM
At this point, VETERANS!!

1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?


1a, 2a, and 3a. Find some way to augment the current incarnation of elemental magick. Either allow for 2 *of the same element* subclasses + 1 secondary non-magick subclass, or restore full elemental main classes. Being able to pick "touched" whiran plus "travel" whiran PLUS forester, would be so much more attractive to veterans who "grew up" on full elemental options, I think, than the current, significantly more limited options we have now. This request would encompass each of ShaLeah's 3 questions. It's a change to the code, to the world culture/history/lore, and a change to policy.

1b. simplify the brew system. Being able to customize the colors is great in theory but it's confusing in implementation. If there were a way to add a "maker's mark" to a tablet, that'd be a fun way to customize. So that red tablet that everyone knows does this specific thing, still does this specific thing.  Nothing else does this specific thing. It's like it used to be, before the changes. But in my idea, this one was made by Amos the Dwarf, and he put his stamp, or mark, on the back of it.

1c. I'm pretty much okay with the rest of the code. No third change comes to mind at the moment. I just thought of a third code thing: food and spice decay. I get the stockpiling thing was ridiculous, but playability makes for difficulty, when you aren't clanned, or when your clan is gone into the wilderness for several game-days and your steak is rotting in your pack. Also if you're a Kuraci bringing a spice delivery to a Sun Runner (for instance) and you just keep missing each others' play times, that spice will disintegrate before you ever get a chance to deliver it. There needs to be some more efficient preservation options. Could even make them coded and craftable. The Zalanthan version of a beer cooler or something.

2b. Create a new incarnation of the Red Fangs, or similar. The world outside cities north of Allanak needs an organized, staff-supported/sponsored and at least somewhat staff-moderated PC antagonist group.

2c. Provide for the reopening of Tuluk OR some other, new or newly discovered ancient civilization that might possibly loathe Tektolnes (Steinal?). Allanak also needs an antagonist. Or Allanak needs to be antagonist to some similarly-influential world civilization.

3b. I have no particular problems with the current policies, so other than the elemental magick thing, I'm basically okay with the status quo on that.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 12, 2018, 11:27:24 PM
Quote from: crymerci on October 12, 2018, 03:11:52 PM
I did experience sexist treatment with a recent PC. Within a RL month I had multiple PCs who stalked/harassed/creeped on my PC.

I don't think this is sexist treatment. Maybe just something you don't OOCly like, and something that your character may not like. But that's no different than my PC being stalked and killed. Both are something we don't like, but are part of playing a character in a living, breathing world.

Nothing stops one homosexual male IC from stalking/harassing/creeping on another male IC. And because of that, this behavior isn't sexist. It's not a byproduct of some agenda to consciously or subconsciously treat you differently because of your sex, but rather a behavior that is derived from their sexual orientation. It's just objectionable behavior IC, which should be dealt with IC, just like people trying to assassinate my character IC.

Quote from: Raptor_Dan on October 12, 2018, 02:07:09 PM
#2- Get rid of the veil. I don't know exactly how to communicate this. Get rid of the veil of secrecy between staff and players, but also between IG, and OOC. Because of the rules, I've blown off dozens of friends I want to keep playing with, when they started to tell me about their PCs, or plots, or asked questions about mine. Get rid of find out IC culture

I feel like this would make me quit. Plotting, and finding out secrets IG is fun for me. I wouldn't want people just openly discussing plot details in the general channel of discord.

That said, I'm all for mechanical transparency, and lore/historical transparency. I don't like how disadvantaged noobs can be just because they don't know how mechanics work, and it has historically been against the rules to tell them. I feel like staff has already lightened up on this a TON, and it is FAR improved from the way it was 5 years ago. I also would like to have more access to historical lore, and an RP document that suggests what characters of various social classes would -typically- know of history. Then let players define their level of historical knowledge based on their own backstory, with that guidance document in mind. There are a lot of things that new characters in the game just have no idea of how they should RP it. For instance, I haven't been able to find any documentation describing the rarity of metal in a help file, in order to determine what the average character would even know about it's existence. These are the types of things I'd like transparency on. Major world events, absolutely.

But NOT on secret, ongoing plots and other PC's plot information discussed OOCly.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 12, 2018, 11:56:13 PM
Agree with Heade about the lore. I'd suggest: any world-changing events that anyone currently living would not have existed to experience, should be accessible. Perhaps some details need to be left out, but the event itself should be knowable as lore, to current characters. Or at the very least, lore to characters in the clans involved in the events at the time.

Example:

Red Storm East. I don't think there would be any characters currently living, who would have been there, or even been alive at the time. But the whole story about the giants and the silt sea expedition certainly would be legendary by now. Maybe we wouldn't know the names of the minor characters, but we might know the names of the clans that were represented, and perhaps the names of the primary leaders of the expedition. We might not know the reason why they went. But we'd know they did, in fact, have a reason for going. And we'd know that they ran into giants. And that it was a really big deal. And that it led to the closing of Red Storm East, loss of life, and a grain famine that lasted for quite awhile. We'd know that some PCs living in Allanak made attempts to rectify this and find solutions to the famine. Their names would not have been lost; they were written by nobility, passed by word of mouth to comrades, nobles in Allanak and GMH Agents would've passed this as the house lore to their favored aides/Junior merchants...etc.

Not every *character* would know all this stuff. But every *player* would have access to the knowledge, so that they could decide how much - if anything - their character knows out of the Hall of Kings.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Raptor_Dan on October 13, 2018, 12:47:06 AM
Thanks for the input Headed, I can see your point. You've persuaded me to agree with you on each part.

In response to ShaLeah, I can't think of three of each of those things, but I've had this really.... Intriguing, I guess would be the right word, idea. It would take a lot of work and coding, I'm sure. It may not even be feasible or remotely realistic but it would change the game forever if it were implemented the way I envision it. Since I mostly think in pictures, graphs, and memes, bear with me if my explanation isn't fully understandable.,,

I imagine a way for skills/spells to be combined, to produce unique results. Imagine Amos and Talias are both fighting with, and Amos types 'Bash gith with Talia' which prompts the code to wait for Talias to type 'Bash gith with Amos' Or 'Disarm gith with Amos' The double bash doing more damage or stun than two separate attacks, or bash/disarm giving greater success for popping off a hand maybe.

On the purely gicker side, two gickers working together on the same spell creates an exponentially powerful version of that spell, or different spells combining in wild and unpredictable ways. Additionally, a fireball bash does tremendous damage, but with a chance of setting the basher on fire.

The possibilities are endless, the discovery factor would continue on and on, larger groups would be exponentially frightening when say, a Byn troop all types 'Flank' and their guard skill is maxed. Magickers would be pressed closer together, making them unpredictable and thus more legitimately feared. And as the real plus side that I'm seeing, more people working together, needing each other.

Idk, maybe it's a crazy dream, but I like dreaming it. I hope it's not too impossible to try. *Crossed fingers*
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 13, 2018, 08:05:27 AM
Lizzie has the right of it. World changing events and code stuff (which has been pretty straight forward for the most part, so good job on that guys). I would also like to see some info on what's expected next. I can understand why there's the air of secrecy, but we learned about the changes to class WAY ahead of time and that popped off without a hitch and people were even excited for it. I would love to hear the results (or even minutes) from those discussions Brokkr.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: roughneck on October 13, 2018, 10:01:38 AM
Quote from: Feco on October 13, 2018, 09:43:37 AM
I'd just like to add that I like playing in a world where dying suddenly, maybe for as much as a pair of boots, is a possibility.

When I saw Feco's post in the PK thread, it made me think of this one.

We are playing in a time of abundance and plenty. PC's have more, survive easier, and are wealthier.

Why?

Because there's more craftables, there's items, there's more regulation on PK, there's more of everything which equals more ways to survive. All this stuff was added for the right reasons, to enrich our play.

For me, as a near 20yr player (off and on), I think much of the grit is gone. We are pretending that our PC's live in a gritty, tough to survive, murderous world, rather than actually playing in one.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 13, 2018, 12:57:10 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 04, 2018, 11:31:58 PM
In my perception we've lost some... a lot... of our grit.  The changes to the magick system, the removal of full sorcerors and nilazi are of particular concern .[snip]. made the world less scary. 
[snip]
The theme has changed...


Quote from: roughneck on October 13, 2018, 10:01:38 AM
Quote from: Feco on October 13, 2018, 09:43:37 AM
I'd just like to add that I like playing in a world where dying suddenly, maybe for as much as a pair of boots, is a possibility.

When I saw Feco's post in the PK thread, it made me think of this one.

We are playing in a time of abundance and plenty. PC's have more, survive easier, and are wealthier.

Why?

Because there's more craftables, there's items, there's more regulation on PK, there's more of everything which equals more ways to survive. All this stuff was added for the right reasons, to enrich our play.

For me, as a near 20yr player (off and on), I think much of the grit is gone. We are pretending that our PC's live in a gritty, tough to survive, murderous world, rather than actually playing in one.

Quote from: Veselka on October 12, 2018, 10:57:34 AM
It was better.

So...

Quote from: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 09:39:57 PM
At this point, VETERANS!!

1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?


1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

a) The return of all FULL magicks for special app only OR we add a new karma 4 so that the most trusted can use them openly. Sorceror, nilaz, elkros included.  The new magicks stay in place for any karma 3 or below as intended.  Any full karma 4 mage can use magick subguilds too.

Don't pretend that doesn't scare the fuck out of you.

b) Mastercrafting. This doesn't make the world grittier but it provides a bigger sense of world impact if we can add things to the Known.

c) I'll come back to this one.

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

a) Open Tuluk with ONE Templar order (fuck sexism and gender bias Muk, those templars could be BAD ASS terrifying) - without noble houses or city proper clans like the bards or the akai. GMHs have holdings and plenty employment opportunities.

b) Allow GMHs to hire protection and hunters.

c) Bring back the fucking gypsies.

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?

a) That staff approach sponsored roles as more than just a body.  That they are transparent with what's expected. That they brief the incumbent with the hierarchy and their current concerns and missions. Maybe have an interview where staff and hopeful dialogue, see if they can work together well or their play styles match.

b) That we stop banning players permanently.

c) That we hire one or two staff purposely for recruitment, retention and most of all newbie education.


Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 13, 2018, 01:31:00 PM
One time I got rewarded with a goblet of fancy wine on my Oashi for some savvy political navigation


I got so pissed i almost stored, lmao
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 13, 2018, 03:56:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 13, 2018, 01:31:00 PM
One time I got rewarded with a goblet of fancy wine on my Oashi for some savvy political navigation


I got so pissed i almost stored, lmao

I got a chair! Lol
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 13, 2018, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 09:39:57 PM
At this point, VETERANS!!

1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?


I'm really glad staff has chimed in. I'm really glad they've said they're listening. It maintains my hope.

I'm glad we've been able to reign in the tempers and keep in topic...ish.

Thanks again for starting this, Moe.
Thank you Brokkr for explaining things when people couldn't decipher your meaning or intention.

This thread is making me wanna play again.

1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

I honestly don't have much issue with coded things.

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

1. Open Tuluk
2. Make it so master crafting means you can master craft something
3. Give nobles and leaders more clear rewards and advancement (be that tattoos, rare items, promotions, etc)
4. Stop making Luir's a stand in city-state instead of an Outpost

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?

1. Refocus on the lore and storytelling element.  Reward players for following the lore.  Crack down on leaders that don't have a good grasp on the game world.  Emphasize class structure IG properly.
2. I like the karma system, but make it reset more frequently
3. Let leaders advance
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Is Friday on October 13, 2018, 05:40:28 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 13, 2018, 03:56:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 13, 2018, 01:31:00 PM
One time I got rewarded with a goblet of fancy wine on my Oashi for some savvy political navigation


I got so pissed i almost stored, lmao

I got a chair! Lol
I got a fat, annoying, whiny Lord husband.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Hauwke on October 13, 2018, 06:06:47 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 13, 2018, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 12, 2018, 09:39:57 PM
At this point, VETERANS!!

1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?


I'm really glad staff has chimed in. I'm really glad they've said they're listening. It maintains my hope.

I'm glad we've been able to reign in the tempers and keep in topic...ish.

Thanks again for starting this, Moe.
Thank you Brokkr for explaining things when people couldn't decipher your meaning or intention.

This thread is making me wanna play again.

1) If you could choose 3 things to change of the code, what would they be?

I honestly don't have much issue with coded things.

2) If you could choose 3 things to change world wise, what would they be?

1. Open Tuluk
2. Make it so master crafting means you can master craft something
3. Give nobles and leaders more clear rewards and advancement (be that tattoos, rare items, promotions, etc)
4. Stop making Luir's a stand in city-state instead of an Outpost

3) If you could request 3 policy changes, what would they be?

1. Refocus on the lore and storytelling element.  Reward players for following the lore.  Crack down on leaders that don't have a good grasp on the game world.  Emphasize class structure IG properly.
2. I like the karma system, but make it reset more frequently
3. Let leaders advance

I would like to point out that it is called Custom Crafting now, as apposed to Master Crafting. I assume because people were setting out to make the fanciest, most awesome things every single time. I can understand why folks would do that, I would probably attempt it a few times myself until I got bored of that system.

As for what I would change:

Coded:

I would see strength across the board increased to a believable level, humans cannot lift their own bodies once dead, a regular human being should be capable of it, let alone one in a very physical job. That being said, damage would need to be tweeked, and the strength of other races would need to be increased by that same amount so as not to remove the advantage that they get.

I think that climbing needs to be adjusted to take some stats into account, other than agility. A very strong and also agile person will have a far easier time of scaling a wall than a super agile elf with noodle arms, just based on the fact they have to lift themself.

Lore:

I think HG's need their intelligence levels raised to a point where, while not smart, they are functional as people. As it currently stands they are imbeciles that would forget to feed themself if they were not around others or food.

Thats really all for lore, and have no other issues.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Shalooonsh on October 13, 2018, 06:35:36 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 13, 2018, 04:00:03 PM
3. Let leaders advance

I would like to address this specifically, and to also give some assurance that this particular topic has been recently discussed amongst staff, and will continue to be discussed until a realistic and (most importantly) viable solution is agreed on.

One of the pivotal problems we have with Noble advancement is a very simple one:

The more Game World (henceforth referred to as GW) power a PC noble has, the more staff attention has to be given to that PC noble to reinforce to both themselves and the other players as to the extent of that GW power.  One of the big reasons that Red Robes were removed from the hands of PCs was the fact that there's just no way to properly and completely reinforce that power without, basically, a pet staffer, on call 24/7, making Zalanthas DoThisDoThat.  A Red Robe was, previously, the only evolution a Blue Robe could get, and Red Robes should realistically contain the kind of power that can shatter the side of an argosy with a cough.  They can decide they don't like the way your pants are tailored, and slap a slave collar on you for life.  They should be able to, without thinking twice, call up -units- of Soldiers and go do whateverthefuck they want with them.  That's the GW power the Red Robe should be able to wield, and this causes intrinsic problems for us as staff... because seriously, we love you guys.  We're here to bring the world to life, but we just can't be on call 24/7. 

"But Shalooonsh" they say "just do what you guys can and..."  Nope.  That's not how it works.  Because eventually there will come a point where zero staff will be capable of responding to whatever needs Freddy the Fred Robe has, and Something Will Go Wrong.  Immersion gets shattered, a bunch of PCs die, something happens and the relationship gets eroded.  Maybe just a little, but a little just the same.  And just like RL erosion, the damage is done, and it makes the next impact even worse, and the next worse, and the next worse.

So we stripped out Red Robes.  It was kind of a nuclear solution to just remove the option, but it had to happen.  Then a ton of work was put in to the thought of What To Do with Templars, and the current concepts were gone over with fine toothed combs, filed down, polished, cut, and BAM... once approved, they took off pretty damn well.

This is the same kind of process that's being applied to the nobles.  Seriously, you guys aren't off of our minds, but it's not a fast process... especially considering all of the other things we have to work on!  We have to figure out how to properly and totally present the idea of power for an elevated noble without tying ourselves by the shorthairs to the request queue and Super Wish Hotline.

That being said, right now, nobles do have some routes for advancement while staying a Junior Noble, but they take a heck of a lot of effort.  You want it?  We're going to make you sweat like C&C Music Factory to get it, but the rewards are worth it.  More are currently being worked on, and once proven to be polished properly, they'll be implemented.  I wish I could give a timeline, but it just isn't possible at this juncture.

Lieutenants and above:
These are special cases.  The problem is that even with heavily military roles, we still cannot fully and realistically present the ability for a Byn Lieutenant to bark some orders and have six sergeants with full units fall in on her if she wants to make an impact at any given moment, which is something that a Byn LT would be fully within her rights to do given proper GW power.  And AoD/Byn Captains are even above that! 

I know there's a ton of points in the past that people can bring up examples of with successful LTs (Raul and others), or Nobles/Senior Nobles (Ceylara Borsail and several others), and of course the legendary old Reds. 

The difference between then and now is that we're earnestly working to find a way to do this right, so that the process/effort won't have to be reopened, reworked, rejiggered, recancelled, rereworked, and then rerereopened.  We want it to be done, approved, appreciated, and viable for a good long time.

So it is taking us a while to do it right, as things should be.  :)
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Seeker on October 13, 2018, 08:53:31 PM
Thank you, Shalooonsh. 

The above is a very different answer then, "No player advancement is possible in these roles.  If you insist on promotion, you will be granted it if you have earned it.  And then force stored."

I believe that was the essence of the last official public staff announcement on the matter.  This statement is much more encouraging.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 13, 2018, 09:49:02 PM
Shalooonsh — Thanks for the response.

It seems most of the time, Staff wishes to represent a much larger world than seems actually feasible. The power jump between Blue and Red Robe for instance sounds like the power that a Black Robe should wield. Instead of a Red Robe being able to cough and put a hole in an Argosy, couldn't their power be more limited? Instead of six units of soldiers at their command, why not two? Similarly for Byn Lieutenant— why six, and why not one or two units? This would much closer resemble the actual PC power structure already in place.

I respect Staff for attempting to represent a much larger world, but the simple solution (to me) would be better representing a smaller one, and allow PCs to have a greater part within it. This relieves the need for constant babysitting of power — reduce the overall power, increase the minimums and the maximums. Add more ranks above if need be, to provide more movement.

I personally think that with the closure of Tuluk in particular, why is the power structure in Allanak mostly exactly the same? We've crammed more people into a space. Which requires more options, not the same amount. It also strikes me as odd that Allanak is sacrosanct, while Tuluk is and was fair game to experiment and ultimately abandon.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 13, 2018, 10:11:45 PM
Quote from: Veselka on October 13, 2018, 09:49:02 PM
Shalooonsh — Thanks for the response.

It seems most of the time, Staff wishes to represent a much larger world than seems actually feasible. The power jump between Blue and Red Robe for instance sounds like the power that a Black Robe should wield. Instead of a Red Robe being able to cough and put a hole in an Argosy, couldn't their power be more limited? Instead of six units of soldiers at their command, why not two? Similarly for Byn Lieutenant— why six, and why not one or two units? This would much closer resemble the actual PC power structure already in place.

I respect Staff for attempting to represent a much larger world, but the simple solution (to me) would be better representing a smaller one, and allow PCs to have a greater part within it. This relieves the need for constant babysitting of power — reduce the overall power, increase the minimums and the maximums. Add more ranks above if need be, to provide more movement.

I personally think that with the closure of Tuluk in particular, why is the power structure in Allanak mostly exactly the same? We've crammed more people into a space. Which requires more options, not the same amount. It also strikes me as odd that Allanak is sacrosanct, while Tuluk is and was fair game to experiment and ultimately abandon.

If I'm understanding Shaloooonsh right, he's saying that the options for playable roles within the templarate and nobility have already been expanded. So no, you can't play a Red Robe but your blue robe now has more options than it used to have, and can be promoted to higher levels of blue. I mean, you could slap a purple robe on that higher level and call it a day, but in the end it's just a color. The role itself has already been expanded, and promotions are already available. Same with nobles. This has already been made a thing, over the past couple of years. To do exactly what you are asking about.

As for "why not just two units?" It still involves PCs having command over entire units of NPCs, which would still require heavy staff oversight of a single PC.

As for Allanak vs. Tuluk - Allanak was the original. Tuluk was added later. It is the more expendable of the two and further, Allanak already better represents the theme of the game, than Tuluk did. In order for Tuluk to represent the theme of the game, it would have to be completely rebuilt and re-themed. Why do that, when we already have Allanak? So that's why Tuluk was the sacrifice, and Allanak was the mainstay.

That's my takeaway on the whys and wherefores. Don't know if my impressions are accurate or not, but they seem to make sense.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Armaddict on October 14, 2018, 12:00:59 AM
Yeah, my response would be that someone arbitrarily decided that Red Robes were far more powerful than they were represented as in game.

My other response would be that they don't need a babysitter, they just need a few staff members whose actual job as staffers was facilitating things in game that made sense or needed to be done for players to get things done.  Nothing super world-changing, but if it's not world-changing and still needs staff help, it's only gonna make cool things, really.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 14, 2018, 01:42:37 AM
Staff seem to put a lot of effort into devizing systems that make it so staff dont have to actively police player behavior. This is, I assume, in an attempt to leave them with more time to facillitate plots and make fun things happen for players. But maybe the limitations these systems bring simply end up shifting the workload over to the equally heavy problem of trying to please players who are already irritated because they feel limited by the sytemes in place.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 02:05:50 AM
The number of Red Robes in the entire city is something like 15-20 of them.  They do stuff like command entire armies, oversee an entire quarter, etc.  They are about at the limit of what we can codedly represent from a power perspective.

Black robes are like... they snap their fingers and not only do you die, but three generations of your family does too.  :P
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on October 14, 2018, 02:16:39 AM
Doesn't having that much power, on the top end, make it impossible for Allanak to ever lose? How do staff, from a ST perspective, justify not always having a black, or a red, show up and finger-snap away, all challengers and problems?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 14, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Quote from: Vex on October 14, 2018, 02:16:39 AM
Doesn't having that much power, on the top end, make it impossible for Allanak to ever lose? How do staff, from a ST perspective, justify not always having a black, or a red, show up and finger-snap away, all challengers and problems?

Because no matter how important you think your character's story is, it's small-time in the grand scheme of things, which is what those ridiculously overpowered NPCs are meant to represent. It's how staff has justified maintaining the status-quo IC for two decades without having players be able to largely impact the game world, thus causing a need for 10,000 room re-writes.

If staff was open to the idea of major power shifts in places like allanak, caused by players, I imagine that it would have happened sometime in the last 20 years.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 02:24:00 AM
Tek and Muk Utep and their higher ups offset each other.  And they generally don't care enough about the unwashed masses to want to harm (or help) them.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 14, 2018, 02:36:04 AM
Quote from: Vex on October 14, 2018, 02:16:39 AM
Doesn't having that much power, on the top end, make it impossible for Allanak to ever lose?

Pretty much. And that's the point.

Ultimately, you can't kill Tek, not because it's impossible, or because it wouldn't be fun, or because you're not creative enough to come up with a plan that would work, but rather....

...because killing Tek in a huge game-world deeply rooted in his mythos would require such a massive re-write of rooms, items, characters, and so on that no one on staff has ever been interested in entertaining the notion of doing so. And so, to justify that, they made that power so absolute, so unassailable that the characters we play in this story are but ants in a sandbox to those in real power. Even the Nobles you get to RP with are just peon-level nobles, despite how they act. If you killed every active PC in the game, virtually, it'd be a drop in the bucket.

This is done to ensure that the decisions of players wouldn't generally have large enough impact on the world to require a massive amount of work, staff-side.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 02:37:07 AM
Quote from: Heade on October 14, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
Because no matter how important you think your character's story is, it's small-time in the grand scheme of things, which is what those ridiculously overpowered NPCs are meant to represent. It's how staff has justified maintaining the status-quo IC for two decades without having players be able to largely impact the game world, thus causing a need for 10,000 room re-writes.

If staff was open to the idea of major power shifts in places like allanak, caused by players, I imagine that it would have happened sometime in the last 20 years.

This isn't entirely inaccurate.  We don't have the resources or the game systems in place to support major changes to the world that respond rapidly to things that could result if we let Heade and Vex the red robes ride out with 500 soldiers and take over Luirs Outpost or whatever, on a weekend.  It'd be cool if we did, but even the big A-list flagship games like WoW or any of the other MMOs do a pretty poor job of this and they have hundreds of developers, cutting edge technology, and budgets in the tens of millions of dollars.  The last time I played WoW was in the Lich King expansion and there was that fort in the middle that was always "contested" and it'd shift to either Alliance or Horde, based on player actions, but that was all cookie cutter and just in either mode 1 (alliance) or mode 2 (horde).

There was no dynamism to it and if the alliance wanted to show up and take over a Horde outpost, or vice versa, that wasn't that area - as soon as they left all the NPCs would reset and things would go instantly back to normal, minus all the little skeleton objects left behind on the ground which gradually fade away after a few hours.  I'd like to point out that you can do this exact thing on Armageddon and the world responds exactly the same way.  Heh heh.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
I just feel like it doesn't have to be so top-heavy. Don't get me wrong. I love the oppressiveness of the city-states and the deification of the kings, but do we really need to make them too big to ever fail? I think we could take the power level of the higher-ups down a few notches and still maintain the same themes, while opening up more rebellious plots and schemes (among those who aren't literally insane with delusions of grandeur) and making higher echelons of power (not just horizontal 'promotions') more feasible for PCs to be able to realistically play.

What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 14, 2018, 02:41:13 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 02:37:07 AM
We don't have the resources or the game systems in place to support major changes to the world that respond rapidly to things that could result if we let (players be that powerful)

Yeah, this is basically what I said. And I described why. We're on the same page. ;)
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:43:21 AM
Btw I understand that this would not fix the problem of PCs in high level positions needing to have many more underlings at their beck and call than they can realistically gather IG. I know that my suggestion wouldn't fix this, nor would it fix many other problems. But it might fix SOME things.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on October 14, 2018, 02:52:11 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 02:24:00 AM
Tek and Muk Utep and their higher ups offset each other.  And they generally don't care enough about the unwashed masses to want to harm (or help) them.

At what stage of escalation, would they become involved? That is, say an Allanaki rebellion formed, and got busy. How far could players realistically expect, to soldier on, towards glorious revolution, before staff were forced to address them, with a black robed fly swatter?

I find, the hardest thing to conceptually grasp, is "where would you have to stop", or even, "how would you stop" in a way, that isn't essentially being annihilated, by a super NPC, in a tower somewhere.

Player clans, for example... how far, could players take a clan, until it hit the point, where it either had to be taken out of player hands, or had to be annihilated, because players hit the point, where their scope was greater, than could adequately be handled?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 03:04:08 AM
I dunno, it's a good question.  For a rebellion we'd have to decide how many VNPCs were involved beyond the PCs that were running it and act accordingly.

Muk and Tek are superpowered NPCs that have existed for thousands of years and are rivals - or are they?  The thing is, you can't really be sure what sort of arrangement they have with each other, and any other entities out there in the world who are in that same bucket of scariness (black robes, tuluki upper templarate, wyverns, etc).

For player clans, it'd be hard for them ascend to the level of being a threat to a city-state - so the super-powerful probably don't care that much.  If they did, it would happen over a long period of time, and we'd have plenty of time to make whatever adjustments were necessary.  It's baked into the player clan docs that if it gets big enough, staff will make it officially a coded clan, but we only do that if we think it's a good fit for the game world, it seems like something we can support going forward, and so on.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 03:13:06 AM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
...
What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.

You give PCs too much coded power and that kills plots though.  Look at Tuluk, 5 years ago.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 14, 2018, 07:45:10 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 03:13:06 AM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
...
What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.

You give PCs too much coded power and that kills plots though.  Look at Tuluk, 5 years ago.
Ugh. Don't make me agree with seidhr.

I like the idea of opening up the onec step up option for promotion.  Much morevof our world is virtual than not.  Active pcs are a very small piece of Ginka's pie.

Let's say we allow that one step up, outside of the VERY slim chance the player (already well versed on expectations and merits at this point) was just waiting for this promotion to fuck some shit up and had everyone duped, their job would be to oversee the leaders of that clan while having power over its little people too. It opens up rp opportunity for more competition, more betrayal, more social climbing, more bribes. Politically it gives more of a clear line too, who really matters, who you need to get to. In the case of templars, being above the other two would be awesome. One of those sergeants fucking with you? Call the lieutenant. It's hard enough to get that promotion anyway, it's a lot of triumphs before we can even make it.

I don't know that Allanak would result in a Tuluk. Too openly brutal. Maybe a promotion to red robe is a promotion into the ministry that doesn't exist. The first rule of [redacted] club is we do not talk about [redacted] club.

+1 for players earning promotions
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 14, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 03:13:06 AM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
...
What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.

You give PCs too much coded power and that kills plots though.  Look at Tuluk, 5 years ago.

What does this even mean? What aspect of Tuluk was too much coded power? Psionic? It's really nothing compared to full sorcery,

We (Staff includes) are rooted in the idea of too big to fail, fear of wild dynamics, and things like "there are 15-20 red robes" and "black robes snap and you die". These are all functions Staff stands behind and wills into being. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the best or only way.

You do realize one of the initial hooks of Dark Sun is the death of Kalak of Tyr? It is never entirely solved, but it places the city in endless turmoil, infighting between nobles and Templars, commoner and slave rebellion, not to mention the Veiled Alliance.

Honestly, I see a marked reticence and trepidation to take risks from Staff. It just doesn't lend itself to the creative mindset. Sometimes you need to take risks. Walk back mistakes. Try again. Tek dies and shit is going sideways? A black robe takes on the mantle of immortal sorcerer king.

It's just endlessly odd that Staff is still so delicate of touching the power structure of Allanak or altering documentation. But fuck Tuluk.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 14, 2018, 11:54:21 AM
True, fuck Tuluk, but also? Real talk? Really real talk? Fuck Allanak. Fuck everybody. We need to mix shit up. We can keep the themes of the game without keeping every iota of the set piece in the same exact place it's been in for the last 30 RL years. Playing it safe doesn't seem to be working, so why don't we try something new?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: MeTekillot on October 14, 2018, 11:55:16 AM
that players can affect without joining staff or app'ing for a sponsored role while providing players with the transparent expectation that many of the changes they want won't go in the way they want or if they do get what they want it's gonna take a while
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: CodeMaster on October 14, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
This is really interesting to watch.

Can anyone give me some details (or a pointer to reading) on the role of white robe templars?  Could any good come from opening them for play?  Could they/are they somehow placed beneath blue robes to give newbie templar players some vertical movement?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: CodeMaster on October 14, 2018, 12:46:40 PM
Quote from: Veselka on October 14, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
You do realize one of the initial hooks of Dark Sun is the death of Kalak of Tyr? It is never entirely solved, but it places the city in endless turmoil, infighting between nobles and Templars, commoner and slave rebellion, not to mention the Veiled Alliance.

Honestly, I see a marked reticence and trepidation to take risks from Staff. It just doesn't lend itself to the creative mindset. Sometimes you need to take risks. Walk back mistakes. Try again. Tek dies and shit is going sideways? A black robe takes on the mantle of immortal sorcerer king.

One thing I really liked about the game before Arm:Reborn was announced and many story secrets were spilled is that what you describe was totally conceivable.  I speculated that this was the case (black robes were in control; Tektolnes was an imaginary figurehead; and the reason it took so long for Tektolnes to rescue the city from the siege is because the black robes had to get their shit together to create the illusion).
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: evilcabbage on October 14, 2018, 12:57:18 PM
except in the story tektolnes was very seriously in those stories, going "god, these blue robes whine so much, listen to him, 'oh please help me, please help me, we can't handle it' and the second it went from 'please help me to' 'are you even really there', tektolnes got incredibly pissed off at it, morphed into a dragon, and tail-lynched the blue robe while obliterating an entire army in seconds.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 14, 2018, 01:35:24 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
I just feel like it doesn't have to be so top-heavy. Don't get me wrong. I love the oppressiveness of the city-states and the deification of the kings, but do we really need to make them too big to ever fail? I think we could take the power level of the higher-ups down a few notches and still maintain the same themes, while opening up more rebellious plots and schemes (among those who aren't literally insane with delusions of grandeur) and making higher echelons of power (not just horizontal 'promotions') more feasible for PCs to be able to realistically play.

What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.

I agree.  And I'm glad things are being worked, that's reassuring.

What I don't understand is what was unsuccessful?
  Liet.  Paryl of the Arm, Liet. Raul of the Byn (<3), Great Lord Samos, Senior Lady Ceylara ... what was unsuccessful about these characters?  They handled their IG power well, earned it and they are all noteworthy characters that added to the game.  Even more so, they gave the game trusted leaders that didn't require staff intervention of some dusty, animated NPC.

What I don't get is ... what needs fixing?  It's been proven that these kinds of roles work in game when earned and given to trustworthy players.  They give players long-term goals to work towards.  I absolutely do not understand shutting them down.  Even the term "junior noble" sounds lame, and it is.  The lack of power that title entails is brought up constantly IG when convenient.  Characters are constantly reminded of their lack of power despite taking steps IG that might increase their power and notoriety.

To me the current system, across all clans feels broken with the exception of GMH which working from Merchant, to Apprentice Agent, to Agent seems a decent system and power level.  Though - the dynamic of turning Luir's into a mini-city state because Tuluk closed is completely upside down.  Allanak would not stand for "mini-GMH" nobles having their own city between them and Tuluk.  Tuluk probably would give them the smack down too for that matter.

In the meantime, since this is being looked at, I would also ask what are players in leadership roles supposed to do to not stagnate?
Part of my PK thread was to infer that leaders should busy themselves with adding depth to the game.  They should not diminishing it or trying to assert power by simply PKing which often times I believe is due to boredom and the game not properly reflecting that acting an ass will get you shut down or doing well will get you promoted.  Because there is no real ladder to climb in most scenarios.

Combined with the fact that most IG leaders don't have much room for reward or ascendancy you then have the fact that now someone who is a master crafter... can't custom craft things unless they sent in an e-mail to specify that.  In a game there should be reward and less red tape to achieve that but in fact the opposite seems to have occurred and now there all of these OOC steps to jump through to be able to play, create and ascend.

Another thing that bothers me is that ascension really does come down to the staff, and I often wonder how the temperature of the game itself is actually being read because the success of a PC is really open to interpretation and I don't like that it's so objective.  Things being overly objective is a big part of why friction between staff and players happen - vary ideas of interpretation.

In short what I'm trying to say is --- I believe player, staff relations have improved (at least I feel on my end they have.)  But what I don't like is, it seems that staff are holding all of the power cards.  Full magickers are gone.  People can't ascend to the higher levels they once could.  And people that have maxed their crafting skills can't submit a custom craft without sending an arbitrary email in before their character is created for approval and ... possibly using karma?  I really couldn't tell you what the process is because I don't understand it full myself.  The fact that it's not intuitive is an issue.  Combine all of this with the fact that Tuluk has been shut down, there's a totally new social dynamic, and you can't escape Allanak if you want to keep playing a city-based, politicking character?  Things will stagnate rapidly because there isn't a newness and sense of reward. 

I also believe this is part of the reason the social system IG is so deeply out of whack.  There are no real promotions so people just treat PCs that have been around a long time like they're worth more socially than they are and no one has titles to reflect where they stand in regards to their clan/Houses.  And in general, I think especially since Allanak is the only open city-state the nuances of class should be FAR more emphasized than they are currently being RP'd in game.

Things seem much more convoluted and it should be going the opposite direction so that players feel more independent to create, drive plots, and lead clans.

I have to ask the question.  If you can't get promoted, if you can't make custom crafts, if you can't battle between two-city states, if you can't be a powerful magicker... honestly, once you get past surface level here, what is their left for PCs to do other than have flashpan, surface level conflicts, PK, skill grind and time sink?

Being brutally honest, after five months back I find myself ---

To what ends am I playing?  What can I actually achieve with my character?
Is there a point to adding to game history if it won't be around in a few years?

I used to play to become Lieutenant.  Or a Red Robe or... whatever the Faithful promotion was, I forget but I saw that IG too.  Eunoli was it?  Felysia too maybe?  Elithan?  With Sweet Roll she was a pickpocket but once I maxed out my cooking I got to make a custom craft of ... you guessed it.  Sweet Rolls.  A simple achievement but one that brought fun and a sense of reward to bust out my sekret sweet roll recipe and teach it to others.  It was fun for them too, to learn something new.  No e-mail before the character was every created to ask if I could custom craft with her one maxed crafting skill required.  There were still rules.  One master craft a week or a month?  And you had to write everything up yourself so we're talking some simple data entry into the game every few weeks.  Even if there were 10 master crafters IG you're talking one or two pages of text per character a month.  In my example of Sweet Roll, she had one crafting skill I didn't even know I could max at the time.  I would have never thought to send an e-mail before character creation. 

There were little rewards I enjoyed striving for.  I was always having fun and looking forward to the next cool thing I could do.  The next craft I could make.  The next promotion I could get.  And when I died I could switch it up and see what was going on on the other side of the world.  Or fiddle with a magicker and switch it up.  And each magicker had totally different skills so it would take forever to get a feel for all of the roles. 

Now the skills are mostly interchangable between the available classes just at different levels of availability.  Magickers are mostly gone and again the process of getting one is so confusing and convoluted that after my return I still don't understand it. 

The sense of discovery and pursuit is dwindling and that's very clearly because this is a game without a real sense of reward which is what games are generally all about.  Competition, and that sense of accomplishment - fun and entertainment.  I feel there needs to really be more intent around that for players.  Right now the game seems to me, to be more about petty squabbles and less about depth of story, player driven plots and a sense of discovery and reward.

To clarify  --- that is not to say the game should be easier.  It's so say that if you live long enough to max out a craft, if you've been around awhile and thriving in a leadership role, if you're trusted enough to not abuse power - it should be given to you IG.  It doesn't have to be easy to come by, but it SHOULD be available to come by without arbitrary exchange of emails before character creation etc or just not available at all.

Custom crafting is too much work - let's take it away.  We're not sure how to handle promotions in game so we're taking them away until we figure it out.  Magickers are too powerful so we've mostly taken them away.  Mhm, we have less players so ... Tuluk, we're taking it away.  Taking everything away little by little is not a great solution in my eyes.  I'm not saying it to be mean, I'm sure that wasn't the intent but to my eyes after being gone for five years it certainly looks like a lot has been removed and I'm not sure what is really replacing it or what characters are kind of meant to do in an overarching way individually or collectively. A lot has been taken away that was a draw to the game and retained players and it seems it's just expected everyone is supposed to be cool with that. 

A lot of people are saying little to no guidance has been given in the interim of these things being withheld from players.  Tuluk is currently a huge elephant in the room with no one knowing really how to RP it or treat it and many pining for it but we're being told that probably won't be looked at for a RL half year or more.  I would say the same for PC leaders that don't have the option for real coded promotions.  Or people that enjoyed full magickers and so on.  What is the stand in?  What is the expectation?  And beyond that what do players expect from staff so the game retains a sense of fun and reward?  That is really the heart of what I'm getting to.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Malken on October 14, 2018, 03:00:16 PM
I have a feeling that you'll be gone in about two months, Bebop. Not because I'm trying to be mean but mostly because you now understand why many of us have left a while back. Right now you're in the stage where you are trying to convince yourself that things are going to change but deep inside you know you're just hoping for something that will definitely not happen in the time frame you feel acceptable. Discussing changes endlessly is much different than seeing these changes in game. We've been talking about what needs to be done on the GDB for the last 15 years.

Have you seen all the great games out recently and the upcoming ones? This is naturally eating in what time staff are also willing to give to Arm, on top of family and jobs. This isn't 2001 when muds were still somewhat popular. There's also the fact that you can say just recruit more Staff, but most veterans who would make a good staff probably have already been there before and the pool of players to recruit from is really tiny by now. No new players equal less decent staff and much less manpower left to dedicate to the game. Stabilizing armageddon is probably the best you can hope for nowadays, with tiny advancement done once in a blue moon.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 14, 2018, 03:13:11 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 14, 2018, 01:35:24 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
I just feel like it doesn't have to be so top-heavy. Don't get me wrong. I love the oppressiveness of the city-states and the deification of the kings, but do we really need to make them too big to ever fail? I think we could take the power level of the higher-ups down a few notches and still maintain the same themes, while opening up more rebellious plots and schemes (among those who aren't literally insane with delusions of grandeur) and making higher echelons of power (not just horizontal 'promotions') more feasible for PCs to be able to realistically play.

What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.

I agree.  And I'm glad things are being worked, that's reassuring.

What I don't understand is what was unsuccessful?
  Liet.  Paryl of the Arm, Liet. Raul of the Byn (<3), Great Lord Samos, Senior Lady Ceylara ... what was unsuccessful about these characters?  They handled their IG power well, earned it and they are all noteworthy characters that added to the game.  Even more so, they gave the game trusted leaders that didn't require staff intervention of some dusty, animated NPC.

What I don't get is ... what needs fixing?  It's been proven that these kinds of roles work in game when earned and given to trustworthy players.  They give players long-term goals to work towards.  I absolutely do not understand shutting them down.  Even the term "junior noble" sounds lame, and it is.  The lack of power that title entails is brought up constantly IG when convenient.  Characters are constantly reminded of their lack of power despite taking steps IG that might increase their power and notoriety.

To me the current system, across all clans feels broken with the exception of GMH which working from Merchant, to Apprentice Agent, to Agent seems a decent system and power level.  Though - the dynamic of turning Luir's into a mini-city state because Tuluk closed is completely upside down.  Allanak would not stand for "mini-GMH" nobles having their own city between them and Tuluk.  Tuluk probably would give them the smack down too for that matter.

In the meantime, since this is being looked at, I would also ask what are players in leadership roles supposed to do to not stagnate?
Part of my PK thread was to infer that leaders should busy themselves with adding depth to the game.  They should not diminishing it or trying to assert power by simply PKing which often times I believe is due to boredom and the game not properly reflecting that acting an ass will get you shut down or doing well will get you promoted.  Because there is no real ladder to climb in most scenarios.

Combined with the fact that most IG leaders don't have much room for reward or ascendancy you then have the fact that now someone who is a master crafter... can't custom craft things unless they sent in an e-mail to specify that.  In a game there should be reward and less red tape to achieve that but in fact the opposite seems to have occurred and now there all of these OOC steps to jump through to be able to play, create and ascend.

Another thing that bothers me is that ascension really does come down to the staff, and I often wonder how the temperature of the game itself is actually being read because the success of a PC is really open to interpretation and I don't like that it's so objective.  Things being overly objective is a big part of why friction between staff and players happen - vary ideas of interpretation.

In short what I'm trying to say is --- I believe player, staff relations have improved (at least I feel on my end they have.)  But what I don't like is, it seems that staff are holding all of the power cards.  Full magickers are gone.  People can't ascend to the higher levels they once could.  And people that have maxed their crafting skills can't submit a custom craft without sending an arbitrary email in before their character is created for approval and ... possibly using karma?  I really couldn't tell you what the process is because I don't understand it full myself.  The fact that it's not intuitive is an issue.  Combine all of this with the fact that Tuluk has been shut down, there's a totally new social dynamic, and you can't escape Allanak if you want to keep playing a city-based, politicking character?  Things will stagnate rapidly because there isn't a newness and sense of reward. 

I also believe this is part of the reason the social system IG is so deeply out of whack.  There are no real promotions so people just treat PCs that have been around a long time like they're worth more socially than they are and no one has titles to reflect where they stand in regards to their clan/Houses.  And in general, I think especially since Allanak is the only open city-state the nuances of class should be FAR more emphasized than they are currently being RP'd in game.

Things seem much more convoluted and it should be going the opposite direction so that players feel more independent to create, drive plots, and lead clans.

I have to ask the question.  If you can't get promoted, if you can't make custom crafts, if you can't battle between two-city states, if you can't be a powerful magicker... honestly, once you get past surface level here, what is their left for PCs to do other than have flashpan, surface level conflicts, PK, skill grind and time sink?

Being brutally honest, after five months back I find myself ---

To what ends am I playing?  What can I actually achieve with my character?
Is there a point to adding to game history if it won't be around in a few years?

I used to play to become Lieutenant.  Or a Red Robe or... whatever the Faithful promotion was, I forget but I saw that IG too.  Eunoli was it?  Felysia too maybe?  Elithan?  With Sweet Roll she was a pickpocket but once I maxed out my cooking I got to make a custom craft of ... you guessed it.  Sweet Rolls.  A simple achievement but one that brought fun and a sense of reward to bust out my sekret sweet roll recipe and teach it to others.  It was fun for them too, to learn something new.  No e-mail before the character was every created to ask if I could custom craft with her one maxed crafting skill required.  There were still rules.  One master craft a week or a month?  And you had to write everything up yourself so we're talking some simple data entry into the game every few weeks.  Even if there were 10 master crafters IG you're talking one or two pages of text per character a month.  In my example of Sweet Roll, she had one crafting skill I didn't even know I could max at the time.  I would have never thought to send an e-mail before character creation. 

There were little rewards I enjoyed striving for.  I was always having fun and looking forward to the next cool thing I could do.  The next craft I could make.  The next promotion I could get.  And when I died I could switch it up and see what was going on on the other side of the world.  Or fiddle with a magicker and switch it up.  And each magicker had totally different skills so it would take forever to get a feel for all of the roles. 

Now the skills are mostly interchangable between the available classes just at different levels of availability.  Magickers are mostly gone and again the process of getting one is so confusing and convoluted that after my return I still don't understand it. 

The sense of discovery and pursuit is dwindling and that's very clearly because this is a game without a real sense of reward which is what games are generally all about.  Competition, and that sense of accomplishment - fun and entertainment.  I feel there needs to really be more intent around that for players.  Right now the game seems to me, to be more about petty squabbles and less about depth of story, player driven plots and a sense of discovery and reward.

To clarify  --- that is not to say the game should be easier.  It's so say that if you live long enough to max out a craft, if you've been around awhile and thriving in a leadership role, if you're trusted enough to not abuse power - it should be given to you IG.  It doesn't have to be easy to come by, but it SHOULD be available to come by without arbitrary exchange of emails before character creation etc or just not available at all.

Custom crafting is too much work - let's take it away.  We're not sure how to handle promotions in game so we're taking them away until we figure it out.  Magickers are too powerful so we've mostly taken them away.  Mhm, we have less players so ... Tuluk, we're taking it away.  Taking everything away little by little is not a great solution in my eyes.  I'm not saying it to be mean, I'm sure that wasn't the intent but to my eyes after being gone for five years it certainly looks like a lot has been removed and I'm not sure what is really replacing it or what characters are kind of meant to do in an overarching way individually or collectively. A lot has been taken away that was a draw to the game and retained players and it seems it's just expected everyone is supposed to be cool with that. 

A lot of people are saying little to no guidance has been given in the interim of these things being withheld from players.  Tuluk is currently a huge elephant in the room with no one knowing really how to RP it or treat it and many pining for it but we're being told that probably won't be looked at for a RL half year or more.  I would say the same for PC leaders that don't have the option for real coded promotions.  Or people that enjoyed full magickers and so on.  What is the stand in?  What is the expectation?  And beyond that what do players expect from staff so the game retains a sense of fun and reward?  That is really the heart of what I'm getting to.

Since we're on a different page, I'm quoting myself to respond to you Malken because I don't want it to get missed.

I may not play as hard in two months, no.  I believe it's good to have healthy limits of play anyway.  Arm is not something I would let take over my life for years on end again (and I'll be honest it has in the past.)  But I do really love the game and I hope I will stick around in some form to see it get better, to help and to play when I can.  Regardless, there's no point in speculating on me leaving again ATM.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: solera on October 14, 2018, 03:26:18 PM
Could not those few promoted lieutenants etc gain  storyteller powers solely focused on their character (if these are necessary for their jobs)? That is of course if they would tick all the boxes necessary for anyone becoming staff.
I feel this is a dumb question, but I can't see why, so I'm asking.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:44:56 PM
Quote from: Vex on October 14, 2018, 02:52:11 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 02:24:00 AM
Tek and Muk Utep and their higher ups offset each other.  And they generally don't care enough about the unwashed masses to want to harm (or help) them.

At what stage of escalation, would they become involved? That is, say an Allanaki rebellion formed, and got busy. How far could players realistically expect, to soldier on, towards glorious revolution, before staff were forced to address them, with a black robed fly swatter?

I find, the hardest thing to conceptually grasp, is "where would you have to stop", or even, "how would you stop" in a way, that isn't essentially being annihilated, by a super NPC, in a tower somewhere.

Player clans, for example... how far, could players take a clan, until it hit the point, where it either had to be taken out of player hands, or had to be annihilated, because players hit the point, where their scope was greater, than could adequately be handled?

The obvious example would be Ironsword.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:48:41 PM
Quote from: Veselka on October 14, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 03:13:06 AM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
...
What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.

You give PCs too much coded power and that kills plots though.  Look at Tuluk, 5 years ago.

What does this even mean? What aspect of Tuluk was too much coded power? Psionic? It's really nothing compared to full sorcery,

We (Staff includes) are rooted in the idea of too big to fail, fear of wild dynamics, and things like "there are 15-20 red robes" and "black robes snap and you die". These are all functions Staff stands behind and wills into being. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the best or only way.

You do realize one of the initial hooks of Dark Sun is the death of Kalak of Tyr? It is never entirely solved, but it places the city in endless turmoil, infighting between nobles and Templars, commoner and slave rebellion, not to mention the Veiled Alliance.

Honestly, I see a marked reticence and trepidation to take risks from Staff. It just doesn't lend itself to the creative mindset. Sometimes you need to take risks. Walk back mistakes. Try again. Tek dies and shit is going sideways? A black robe takes on the mantle of immortal sorcerer king.

It's just endlessly odd that Staff is still so delicate of touching the power structure of Allanak or altering documentation. But fuck Tuluk.

We just killed two Black Robes.  Players were involved in the struggle and aligned themselves with Red Robes and those NPC desires for advancement. There was a PC action that completely changed the outcome of which NPCs ascended to Black Robe.

This may also be a reflection on how some of us, at least, view timelines.  Since that was like 3 years ago.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:50:09 PM
Quote from: CodeMaster on October 14, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
This is really interesting to watch.

Can anyone give me some details (or a pointer to reading) on the role of white robe templars?  Could any good come from opening them for play?  Could they/are they somehow placed beneath blue robes to give newbie templar players some vertical movement?

Hopefully they are all gone now.  They were an order rooted in history and don't really have a place now.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:56:12 PM
Bebop, I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that an email was necessary for custom crafting, and I would expect a veteran to know that the right location to correspond would be the request tool in any case.

If you want to custom craft:

If you are a legacy merchant, continue as you always did.
If you have a crafting Extended Subclass, there will be specific skills you get through it that you can custom craft.
If you choose the 0 karma Custom Crafter subclass, you can custom craft skills that you get through your main class, even if they don't go to master.

As for mages, again, email not necessary.  Choose a subclass that has magick.  Or do a special app if you are 1 karma below the magick subclass you would like to play.

Don't spread misinformation trying to bolster an argument with hyperbole.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 11:57:18 PM
Brokkr, they [white robes] are not all gone. They exist in echoes and in the water temple at the very least, and I've had some echoes manually thrown at me by staff about them, so I don't think everyone is on the same page about that.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 12:19:34 AM
Not on the same page? Huh.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 12:23:37 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:48:41 PM
Quote from: Veselka on October 14, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
Quote from: seidhr on October 14, 2018, 03:13:06 AM
Quote from: sleepyhead on October 14, 2018, 02:40:20 AM
...
What I'm trying to clumsily say is...is there a reason that black robes HAVE to be able to snap their fingers and kill your future descendents for generations, or level an entire city-state before breakfast? Isn't that overkill? I think we can enforce the idea of a totalitarian state run by terrifyingly powerful sorcerers without taking things to the highest possible extreme. It just kills plots before they have a chance to even start.

You give PCs too much coded power and that kills plots though.  Look at Tuluk, 5 years ago.

What does this even mean? What aspect of Tuluk was too much coded power? Psionic? It's really nothing compared to full sorcery,

We (Staff includes) are rooted in the idea of too big to fail, fear of wild dynamics, and things like "there are 15-20 red robes" and "black robes snap and you die". These are all functions Staff stands behind and wills into being. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the best or only way.

You do realize one of the initial hooks of Dark Sun is the death of Kalak of Tyr? It is never entirely solved, but it places the city in endless turmoil, infighting between nobles and Templars, commoner and slave rebellion, not to mention the Veiled Alliance.

Honestly, I see a marked reticence and trepidation to take risks from Staff. It just doesn't lend itself to the creative mindset. Sometimes you need to take risks. Walk back mistakes. Try again. Tek dies and shit is going sideways? A black robe takes on the mantle of immortal sorcerer king.

It's just endlessly odd that Staff is still so delicate of touching the power structure of Allanak or altering documentation. But fuck Tuluk.

We just killed two Black Robes.  Players were involved in the struggle and aligned themselves with Red Robes and those NPC desires for advancement. There was a PC action that completely changed the outcome of which NPCs ascended to Black Robe.

This may also be a reflection on how some of us, at least, view timelines.  Since that was like 3 years ago.

1-4 Noble/Templar PCs involved in which NPC ascended to generational genocidal deus ex machina position. Cool plot in theory. But how life altering/game altering was it really? 3 years later — it's not even in the history chronology. Newbies making new characters wouldn't know about it or be able to reference it. Veterans coming back to the game wouldn't know about it. If anything it's a perfect example of an endemic issue plaguing the game. If you know, you know. If you don't know, you don't need to know. At least according to the people who are in the know.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 15, 2018, 12:29:12 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:56:12 PM
Bebop, I have absolutely no idea where you got the idea that an email was necessary for custom crafting, and I would expect a veteran to know that the right location to correspond would be the request tool in any case.

If you want to custom craft:

If you are a legacy merchant, continue as you always did.
If you have a crafting Extended Subclass, there will be specific skills you get through it that you can custom craft.
If you choose the 0 karma Custom Crafter subclass, you can custom craft skills that you get through your main class, even if they don't go to master.

As for mages, again, email not necessary.  Choose a subclass that has magick.  Or do a special app if you are 1 karma below the magick subclass you would like to play.

Don't spread misinformation trying to bolster an argument with hyperbole.

Sending an e-mail, I meant the request tool -- I am reverting hard.  And as I said, I don't fully understand how it works because I wasn't here when it was all implemented.  I still find it a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: sleepyhead on October 15, 2018, 12:32:47 AM
Sorry, my post about being on the same page was in reference to white robed templars. I edited it to make that more clear.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Aruven on October 15, 2018, 01:07:09 AM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on October 13, 2018, 06:35:36 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 13, 2018, 04:00:03 PM
3. Let leaders advance

We're going to make you sweat like C&C Music Factory to get it


I don't remember anything else, but it was well said.  Challenge accepted.

Also, I guess I feel like red robes are suddenly way more powerful than I ever imagined. Getting carried around on bone slave pallets and all sorts of crazy stuff. Don't get me wrong: They are a big deal. A lot of the things being attributed to their 'power level over 9000' is my magnitude of a black robe. My perception is a little skewed because my impression came from interacting with PC 'red robes' mostly.

I'd love feedback on this thought. I feel like this area of the game, players want to be able to achieve long-term things, and that includes progression and change of the game itself. IC'ly. There's a perceived overall theme that prevents this. The theme is that the gameworld has a strict series of settings. The map doesn't change much, amongst whatever other things you want to pick at. There was a situation in Tuluk where some people wanted to develop ballistae basically to fight the kryl. The upside response was that it just felt too technological or unfitting to the theme of the game or something like that. This isn't a devastating blow to the game or anything, however it dawned on me that  maybe I wasn't seeing it the right way at all. Is it a progressive story that'll develop with the actions and decisions of the players? Is it a world that has a timeline simply to accommodate big events? Is it a good idea to keep things generally as they are? What would happen if we spun the wheel and let the floodwaters go?

Whatever the answer, one thing that maybe just took a lot of attention I felt was great: The entire striasiri, Qynar divisions in Tuluk. Seemed like a lot of playability on the noble side.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: evilcabbage on October 15, 2018, 01:28:02 AM
white robes are not just an order rooted in history and are not all gone, they sprouted up i believe after thrain ironsword as an order of templars dedicated to worship of the dragon, and they manage the cities water resources.

as far as i know, that's from the coming soon story threads, where their formation was noted. to say that "they have no place" and "they are an order rooted in history" doesn't make any sense. if they're rooted in history, they have a place. if it's the staff's directive to begin removing things that are rooted in history, then i'm sorry to say, but i believe you're going to inevitably start driving even more people away from the game.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 01:40:35 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:56:12 PM
Don't spread misinformation trying to bolster an argument with hyperbole.

Maybe she made an honest mistake?

Spread misinformation? C'mon man. We aren't bolsheviks trying to overthrow the government. We're just trying to offer our opinions about what keeps us around, what turns us away, and what might bring some other folks back into the fold.

From an estranged veteran point of view -- Staff might spend some time on their public image, how they are perceived. Who will and won't be the face to the player base. Some of Staff have great player advocate mentalities, exhibited both through their public posting and request tool etiquette. Others certainly do not. Any team understands who makes the cogs oiled and working correctly, and who's customer service.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: evilcabbage on October 15, 2018, 02:45:35 AM
nevermind, i found it.

1395 (Year 9 Age 19)

    Exactly one year after the beginning of the siege of Allanak, Tektolnes reappears in the guise of a dragon and breathes death upon the sieging army - the army ceases to exist. Over the course of the next few years, a temple is built near the entrance of the city, in which the newly formed white-robe templarate preach the worship of He Who Rescued Us, the Mighty Dragon Tektolnes.


they aren't just a 'part of lore and history' that 'doesn't belong'. they formed for a pretty obvious and good reason.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Decameron on October 15, 2018, 09:48:32 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:48:41 PM

We just killed two Black Robes.  Players were involved in the struggle and aligned themselves with Red Robes and those NPC desires for advancement. There was a PC action that completely changed the outcome of which NPCs ascended to Black Robe.

This may also be a reflection on how some of us, at least, view timelines.  Since that was like 3 years ago.

I'll admit, as a veteran whose returned, I .. had no idea that any of this happened. So, today I learned something.

I realize this reflects a few other's desires but would it be possible to have a smaller section or perhaps a reflection on the GDB from the IC boards that reflect events that one might know about on a large scale, and maybe their status (pending / concluded)? I know 'FOIC' has been out mantra for a long time, but logging into the middle of a rainstorm, snowstorm, earthquake, gith attack, fire-kanks, which have been occurring on a regular basis and acting accordingly like 'WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING!?!!" and getting the response of: "What do you mean? This has been happening every week! Where have you been?!" and trying to explain that you've been hiding out in Nilaz and that you're a Nilazi, to your animated corpses, gets a little impractical. I feel like far-reaching world events should be posted on the GDB immediately after they've happened. It'll serve the dual purpose of getting people interested in log in, and keep the player-base up to date whose not available to be on during those events.

Think I saw some tidbit of this referenced as well, but if the position of blue -> red is too great to offer to a PC, would there be an issue with having an intermediary position? We lowered the ceiling to promote positions that are 'playable', so why not simply create more positions in that sphere of play? I understand that we would run the risk of everyone becoming Lord / Lady  'Meh' Mediocre of House Middling Position, but as long as they have enough authority / power to warrant the pursuit of power and as long as that power is hard enough to reach, I feel there will be players who take it and run with it. It should involve titles, and others perks, as people seem to go nuts for that shit. While we do have something akin to this presently with 'Middle Tier' Nobility or long-lived Blue-Robes, I am speaking of fleshing this out more to be a much steeper and longer climb to that peak of being stored for reaching Senior / Red-Robed. It gives the PC something to reach for, other than storage.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Nao on October 15, 2018, 02:24:50 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:50:09 PM
Quote from: CodeMaster on October 14, 2018, 12:41:16 PM
This is really interesting to watch.

Can anyone give me some details (or a pointer to reading) on the role of white robe templars?  Could any good come from opening them for play?  Could they/are they somehow placed beneath blue robes to give newbie templar players some vertical movement?

Hopefully they are all gone now.  They were an order rooted in history and don't really have a place now.

The templar handing out water is still a white robe.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brytta Léofa on October 15, 2018, 04:35:20 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 14, 2018, 11:48:41 PM
We just killed two Black Robes.  Players were involved in the struggle and aligned themselves with Red Robes and those NPC desires for advancement. There was a PC action that completely changed the outcome of which NPCs ascended to Black Robe.

Here's a radical proposal: lift the veil on game lore.

Right now there's game history that is many years old and not public knowledge. Some of it will never be found out IC. Some of it will be forgotten/lost/retconned. Many secrets will only ever be legitimately known to a handful of players.

The state of game lore is a bit like the state of mastercrafting: lots of effort put in, but the payoff maybe not scaling as well as it should.

Imagine that there is a staff chronology page that is a superset of the public chronology, comprising the definitive guide to everything that can be known about Zalanthas' history. It contains whole entries that aren't publicly known, as well as secret annotations on the public entries. Every entry has a secrecy rating: PUBLIC (immediately known to the player base), SECRET ("Allanak intended for Tuluk to get all the copper because it's radioactive and will kill them", or SUPER SECRET ("Zalanthas is a puddle in New Mexico; the Dragon is a rattlesnake").

Such a page doesn't exist as described (AFAIK) but it's a reasonable way of modeling Game Lore.

My proposal:
- Continuously make public everything rated "SECRET" that is over two RL years old.
- Continuously make public everything rated "SUPER SECRET" that is over five RL years old.

Benefits:
- We get to see the Story. The Story does Work proportional to the thousands of hours of effort put into it by staff and players. The Story is cool and keeps sucking us in. We want to affect The Story.
- We're forced to keep coming up with new History content.

Downsides:
- No deep dark secrets that are more than five (or whatever) years old.
- We're forced to keep coming up with new History content. Honestly I think this is a good thing, but I'm not on staff.

In a nutshell: if you view this as a secrets vs. dynamism lever, we've been far over on the "secrets" side for years. This has its value...but I'm interested in what "dynamism" could do for us.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 05:31:28 PM
We have a subset of players that have access to all that.  So we have experience.  Unlikely to ever happen.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 05:47:27 PM
Do you mean...Staff? Sorry if I'm a bit dense, but I can't quite understand what you mean. A subset of players has access to all of what, secret game lore? So we have experience...Experience with what, or to what end? Unlikely to ever happen...Due to lack of resources or desire to do so?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 06:05:12 PM
Yes, staff.  Current and previous.

Because of what it would do to the game play environment.  It often changes, for folks that have been on staff.  Even for players sometimes when they get a peek at things.  For example, one thing we've seen repeatedly, is that a player knows some secret thing with one character.  Then on a subsequent character (sadly, often a noble or templar), they decide that character would know it.

Now multiply times however many less diligent folks for all the secret stuff behind the veil.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 06:18:53 PM
I suppose I'm less interested in the secrets behind the veil thingy (because I agree with that assessment). More interested in a more up-to-date chronology, and a way for it to be easier updated or maintained. Posting that on the main website, so people can keep track of the interesting tidbits going on in the game, and maybe get excited or hooked back in that way.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 06:24:16 PM
As far as updating, this is me, several days ago:

Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?

As for how, it is fairly easy to update.  It is more a matter of remembering, often after waiting an amount of time before we post, so that having information IG about what happened has value.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: BadSkeelz on October 15, 2018, 07:08:55 PM
Anyone remember what the hell this was about?

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49223.0.html

Was two weeks before Tuluk closed. I don't think it was the red robe DBZ fight, but I don't remember the exact order of events. Nor have I had much luck finding a relevant tavern post in any of my logs from that time.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 07:20:17 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 06:24:16 PM
As far as updating, this is me, several days ago:

Quote from: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
I can update the Chronology.  We've typically had a level of importance to what we post there, as well as waiting on posting most events, with exceptions for HRPT world events.

Outside of the GMH moving into Luirs and the formation of the Garrison, what do folks rises up to the traditional level of importance in your minds?

As for how, it is fairly easy to update.  It is more a matter of remembering, often after waiting an amount of time before we post, so that having information IG about what happened has value.

It got lost amidst the groans!

1. It'd be great if the chronology were visible as a 'Recent Events' page or portion of the website.

2. Perhaps listing the Most Recent to the Least Recent for the chronology (Flipping the order around).

3. Or, perhaps having the Chronology remain the same, with a separate 'Recent Events' portion of the chronology, listing it as 'Within the last 8 IC years / Last 1 RL year'.

As to what might be on there:

-The last three entries in the Chronology are Tablelands Related Events. These events are not only far more detailed than they likely should be, but it is information that most city dwellers would likely not know (or care to know).

-The Battle of the Black Robes, riots that happened within that time, commoner rebellion groups that unsuccessfully formed, and the relative stability that ensued.

-What's going on in Morin's Village? Even if it is nothing, or relatively nothing, having a soft update on what place Tuluk and Morin's Village are taking in the Northlands would be cool. Is it under heavier Garrison supervision? Is Kadius taking on a stronger role than previously as just 'tenant landlords'? Is much the same?

-The opening of Luirs' Outpost's Inner Yard. Seems like a noteworthy event to include, along with the formation of the Garrison and all the hubbub surrounding that (perhaps not the nitty gritty of why, but that it happened).

-Perhaps include some of the political intrigue that has been occurring in Allanak -- I recall a few assassinations and parties gone awry. Even little tidbits like this can help form the idea that players have a lasting (if brief and small) effect on the goings on.

-The most recent events (earthquakes) seems like it would make at the very least a historical plug as 'Allanak has been rocked by a series of earthquakes', leaving it vague and laconic. For would-be people wanting to check out the game, knowing something is happening in Allanak would be good to know for their PCs and backgrounds.

Just some thoughts, take them with a handful of salt. Thanks for your consideration.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: mansa on October 15, 2018, 07:22:04 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 06:24:16 PM
As far as updating, this is me, several days ago:

...

As for how, it is fairly easy to update.  It is more a matter of remembering, often after waiting an amount of time before we post, so that having information IG about what happened has value.

I have a suggestion for the staff in regards to this:
On the IDB, create a post thread called, "Chronological history in the making", and have staff members write stories about plot events that just finished, from knowledge that it would eventually be published on that page.  Include the date and time of the event.  Keep it going and add more to it.   When the time comes, you can publish these writings a year later.   This should help eliminate the 'what did we do a year ago, can someone write it?'.

It's easier to edit text after it's on the page.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 07:40:56 PM
It is a challenge, to get the date right.  *long sigh*
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 15, 2018, 07:22:04 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 06:24:16 PM
As far as updating, this is me, several days ago:

...

As for how, it is fairly easy to update.  It is more a matter of remembering, often after waiting an amount of time before we post, so that having information IG about what happened has value.

I have a suggestion for the staff in regards to this:
On the IDB, create a post thread called, "Chronological history in the making", and have staff members write stories about plot events that just finished, from knowledge that it would eventually be published on that page.  Include the date and time of the event.  Keep it going and add more to it.   When the time comes, you can publish these writings a year later.   This should help eliminate the 'what did we do a year ago, can someone write it?'.

It's easier to edit text after it's on the page.

Better yet, it would be cool to have these link to a longer story or longform text if it is written/available. So instead of just one to five lines about an event, it's a hyperlink to another page with a story or a few paragraphs. Might dovetail the 'Coming Soon' type narrative threads and what was written for the tablelands RPTs/Role Call so they aren't lost forever on the GDB.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2018, 07:42:21 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 07:40:56 PM
It is a challenge, to get the date right.  *long sigh*

Oh we aren't picky. A good guess is good enough for most of us! Besides, the plebes can't read.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 15, 2018, 07:52:32 PM
It is dusk on Detal, the 66th day of the Low Sun,
In the Year of Suk-Krath's Defiance, year 54 of the 22nd Age.


A game year is approximately 7 weeks long.

A RL year is around 8.5 game years.

There are 77 game years in a "King's Age."

So if something happened 3 RL years ago, it'd be around 25-26 game years ago.  You could say "late in the 21st King's Age, this thing happened."

If it was last year it'd be "early in the 22nd Age, that thing happened."

Approximate! As long as the timeline is accurate, with the correct things happening in the right sequence, I don't think anyone's going to quibble about the exact dates of events!

And thank you Brokkr et al for working on it <3
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 15, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
*long sigh* was, in my mind, "What? I gotta put MORE work into this game? I'm not getting paid you know...."
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: evilcabbage on October 15, 2018, 08:06:58 PM
or maybe "we want to be as accurate with the date as possible, and that's really hard."

you don't sigh after saying "man, x is gonna be hard"?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 15, 2018, 08:09:29 PM
As someone who has seen past the veil for a lot of things. I just don't agree that everyone having that knowledge would make the game worse due to people ICly knowing stuff.

As for the extra-super-secret IC info of world events and lore, thigns I also have a fairly good idea of because other players have talked about it... That stuff is so detached from the game-world to me that the idea of ever referencing it in-game would be stupid and make absolutely no sense. My character would be called a crazy person.

As it is I'm lucky to find someone in-game who knows shit about things on the chronology page, or who reference big events that have happened that everyone already knows about. Hardly anyone ever talks about that shit in-game and it never really affects anyone because, frankly, there's a huge disconnect from the history of the world and what players experience in their day to day lives. And it never has once felt like I could be a part of those big things that are referenced in the chronology page, despite the fact that I actually have participated in multiple things that have happened. Because even when it's happened there's so little reference to anything or anyone substantial involved.

When I log in I never think "Man I could be part of this cool new big shit going on." It's always "Man I'm going to spend the next hour sitting at a tavern debating whether or not I want to go outside and level some skills or sit around and find some interaction."

I remember after the Gith War RPT' and far later the Tuluki/Alanaki war HRPT, it was common for me to make new characters that had been involved in that war. I could reference events that I knew happened, even though my character wasn't actually there, simply ICly there as one of the thousands upon thousands of people involved. I had a much easier time injecting myself into the story by knowing things that happened. There should be more things like that for players to draw on for their characters. These sort of things should be happening twice a year, not once every three to five years.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 15, 2018, 08:12:48 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 15, 2018, 08:06:58 PM
or maybe "we want to be as accurate with the date as possible, and that's really hard."

you don't sigh after saying "man, x is gonna be hard"?

Yea I do.  ;) But if x is gonna be hard AND I'm not getting paid, it's a long sigh. Hehhe.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Gaare on October 15, 2018, 09:07:37 PM
My two sids;

- I missed our listing on http://www.topmudsites.com/  .. I kinda have feeling, there was some flaw of players from there. I hope we can get it back in the future.

- I almost never read Random Arm Thoughts thread. It was one of threads that some of you my fellow gaming buddies put to much emotion on.

- Recent code changes are simply amazing.

- I kinda missed magickers. With new karma-system, they'd work a lot better.

- I want some powerful staff PCs/Avatars whatever they are called in these days. I think around 2004s there was a big discussion on staff playing very powerful characters constantly and harming the game itself for players. I gave many breaks to ARM, but I remember probably around 2011s there was another outrage against some staff for playing powerful PCs. It's a bit selfish to ask staff to face so much flame from players, but I really would like to see some sorcerers, real magickers, raiders with metal blades, conquerers with NPC units and camps, scary red robed bastards, etc.  Even if they would be played by staff, time to time I think ARM needs those code base privileged characters as PCs. Better to be in hands of staff then special application, so after a whiel staff can be asked to store it, or let other staff to play it. (Of course they may be already doing it  and I am unaware)
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 19, 2018, 09:21:24 AM
MOVED to ask the staff.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Samira on October 19, 2018, 06:54:25 PM
I've been back playing for a couple of weeks now, and I have to say Staff have done an excellent job with the game code. I really like the new classes so far, and there have been innumerable other tweaks (like built in color schemes!) that I feel have made a marked improvement in play.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 25, 2018, 06:23:38 PM
1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Two measures come before the Allanaki Senate. The first, to return the Borsail family to its place in the nobles' quarter. The second, to give the City Ministry control and oversight of city defense The first measure passes and the second measure fails.

1642 (Year 25 Age 22)
The city reels from a battle of epic and terrifying proportions. Tarith Kasix, Black Robe of the War Ministry and Parduashin Rennik, Black Robe of the City Ministry, waged war with one another in the skies over Allanak. The outpouring of magickal energy rocked the city, killing thousands of citizens. Flaming boulders, lightning storms, strange creatures, and other sights yet more horrible devastated the city. Worst still, and to the horror of all involved, the battle ended with not one but both contenders falling from the sky

1643 (Year 26 Age 22)
A political war rages among several of the Red Robes in the War and City Ministries, each vying to be named Black Robe. Militia loyal to different Legions are openly hostile in the streets. The politics come to a head when the Red Robe Lady Placidia Oash kills the Red Robe Lady Mica Borsail in a magickal duel just outside the Red's Retreat. Shortly thereafter, Lady Placidia Oash is named to lead the War Ministry and Lady Izel Sath is named to lead the City Ministry.


Working on Luirs updates.  Updates will likely be in the same vein...major things that have happened, with more current/recent stuff in the regional IG boards.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Veselka on October 25, 2018, 08:07:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 25, 2018, 06:23:38 PM
1641 (Year 24 Age 22)
Two measures come before the Allanaki Senate. The first, to return the Borsail family to its place in the nobles' quarter. The second, to give the City Ministry control and oversight of city defense The first measure passes and the second measure fails.

1642 (Year 25 Age 22)
The city reels from a battle of epic and terrifying proportions. Tarith Kasix, Black Robe of the War Ministry and Parduashin Rennik, Black Robe of the City Ministry, waged war with one another in the skies over Allanak. The outpouring of magickal energy rocked the city, killing thousands of citizens. Flaming boulders, lightning storms, strange creatures, and other sights yet more horrible devastated the city. Worst still, and to the horror of all involved, the battle ended with not one but both contenders falling from the sky

1643 (Year 26 Age 22)
A political war rages among several of the Red Robes in the War and City Ministries, each vying to be named Black Robe. Militia loyal to different Legions are openly hostile in the streets. The politics come to a head when the Red Robe Lady Placidia Oash kills the Red Robe Lady Mica Borsail in a magickal duel just outside the Red's Retreat. Shortly thereafter, Lady Placidia Oash is named to lead the War Ministry and Lady Izel Sath is named to lead the City Ministry.


Working on Luirs updates.  Updates will likely be in the same vein...major things that have happened, with more current/recent stuff in the regional IG boards.

Big Thumbs Up. Very helpful for people coming back to know about those events, and the Luirs events similarly will be helpful, as most Vets/Returning players may be confused by the Garrison and what's gone on in Luirs recently-ish.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Intrepid on October 25, 2018, 10:57:38 PM
Yep, I will admit to being a bit confused.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Boogerbear on October 26, 2018, 09:35:59 AM
Why I left:

Hated feeling as though I was being permanently punished for something other players were not punished for and was, ICly, arguable.

Why I came back:

I noticed there were less horror stories about interacting with certain persons being posted and the guild change seemed like a good time to get back on a somewhat equal playing field.


Since my work right now is client-based, I have a lot of free time and have played a lot for months.

What do I think?

I've mostly had a really good time with the game, and that has only increased since I've started playing the new guilds and thinking about potential concepts/pairings with them.  For me, it entirely changes the dynamic.

Personally, I'm glad that the pure mage classes are gone.  Fuck em.  Except Nilaz.  It would be cool to see full Nilaz special applications like you see for "psionicist."  That, or Nilazi subclasses.  Or both.  I'd rather see chars with a Nilazi subclass than someone Rukkian warrior who's just out there trying to kill a mekillot, not that that's not cool.  It's just a more story-oriented class to me.


I think Tuluk being closed is good for a ton of reasons and that it needs to remain closed.  Maybe put apartments into Morin's or add additional apartments to Luir's.  Maybe add more shops to make up for the in game economical aspect that was lost when Tuluk was closed, especially with the creation of a system of classes that seems to encourage more crafting.  For merchant PCs, having two city states was very important because of the trade aspect, and losing almost half of the game's shops is perhaps the most lamentable thing, for me, about Tuluk closing. Also, I think people still need a place to be away from Nak for a while if they've recently had a character who was there for a long time.

There was a thread where a lot of longtime players were voting to remove/reduce karma walls for extended subguilds.  I know they're supposed to be "special," but there are more of them now than regular subguilds, or it's pretty close.  But there's also a new sacrific:  if you're a primary-class merchant, you previously didn't lose your ability to custom craft if you went with an extended subclass.  Now, that's the case.  I'm on the side that thinks the extended subguilds should be way more accessible.

One reason for this is that the new guilds often have skills that rely on a wide spectrum of stats.  With legacy guilds, the skillsets demanded that you prioritize one or two stats.  Now, with the hybrid classes, it can be hard to think what stats your char will need to prioritize to be successful with skillsets that include crafting, killing, sneaking, all of it. I've messed up with it already, but fortunately not on an extended subguild, which would've been a waste of, for me, a special application.

At the end of the day, I think the game has come a long way, and I don't think the imms should be afraid to add even more new things because what I've been seeing has been good.  The new guilds and extended subguilds (non magick ones) are just really refreshing.  I don't think imms should be afraid of buffing or debuffing certain aspects of certain classes as time goes on and trends or negatives begin to become evident.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 26, 2018, 12:14:16 PM
Why I left:
The game isn't what -I- want the game to be. Whether that's a factor of the game changing, or my personal preferences, I'm not certain of. I have always wanted the game to be a kind of Dungeons and Dragons experience, with interpersonal relationships played out without the need of a DM as a filler, of sorts. I like being able to go on intermittent quests, and feeling like the decisions I, or my character, makes will matter. For some, this is the case. For me, this has not been, so this isn't the game for me anymore, and perhaps it never really was.

What do I think?
I think if the game works for the other 200+ people playing the game, keep on going and doing your thing. The lack of veterans isn't SOLELY a game-thing, but it has an effect on the game when you lose the people who understand the game, its limitations, and its freedoms. I have had "leadership" who have outright said things in character like "just go backstab it and then disengage, so you can backstab again". And its not 100% their fault, they don't have role models, and staff aren't often paying attention enough to do something about it. If you want to keep veteran players, meet them halfway. If you want better players, or players that "get it", they need positive AND negative role models.

I also think that when you volunteer to become staff, you volunteer to be in a higher position. You are in a position over players, by virtue of your ability to spawn a death demon in the room, which kills them, and then they can't get a rez because it wasn't a coded bug. Your words have weight, and how you act is a reflection of the game and yourself as a person. People know the staff I disagree with. I don't hate them. I think that some do not have interpersonal skills when it comes to talking to players, considering their role, and in turn make themselves and the game they represent seem abrasive or less than some of us know it to be.

I also think that the handful of people that become staff, volunteering their time to NOT play other games, is incredible. I've known a few staff that throw everything into the game, and some staff that are Poor PC Leaders (Check in once a month, "I'm still active!"). But I believe very much that the system in Staff Land really needs someone to lay out some policies and procedures, some consequences, and to make those public for the players. I don't want to request not to have Brokkr handle my requests because I think he's a fart, because his answer should be the same as Seidhr's, which should be the same as Rath's. While all three may say "No":

One says: "Sorry, we can't do that for you at this time."
Two says: "This will not happen and you will not have any staff support if you continue."
Four says: "I think this is an interesting path to explore, but we don't have plans to support any outcomes. Here's an idea for what I, personally, can do. Are you interested?"

Just something to chew on. Neither of those three is 'wrong', but they are in fact three different answers, each with a different effect on me as a player, and my willingness to continue trying to work with you.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 01:27:19 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 26, 2018, 12:14:16 PM
Why I left:
The game isn't what -I- want the game to be. Whether that's a factor of the game changing, or my personal preferences, I'm not certain of. I have always wanted the game to be a kind of Dungeons and Dragons experience, with interpersonal relationships played out without the need of a DM as a filler, of sorts. I like being able to go on intermittent quests, and feeling like the decisions I, or my character, makes will matter. For some, this is the case. For me, this has not been, so this isn't the game for me anymore, and perhaps it never really was.

To me, this is the biggest problem I have with the game right now.  Characters are ham strung and have no real manner of ascension available to them.  The staff are holding all of the power cards/roles and everything seems highly micromanaged.  I had posed some questions earlier in this thread that I feel are valid and they never got a response. 

The staff are saying they took the ability to climb rank away to "fix it" but no one is saying what was wrong with it to begin with - there have been several successful characters that climbed rank to Lieutenant, Red Robe etc.  And no one is giving a timeline on when this "fix" will occur.  It's very unsatisfying to play a leadership role (which can already be pretty thankless) and have no support for obtaining more power in game and to only constantly be reminded you are a peon within your role.  Where does the reward of putting time into a game come in?  Then on top of that no one is enforcing lore or social norms so the RP suffers.

To responsd more to your latter point, I absolutely think there should be someone in charge of staff/player relations and I agree about interpersonal skills.  I do think staff have made a greater effort to be more available and kind than staff I have seen in the past but I agree with a lot of what you're saying.  There is micromanaging both in and outside of the game.  I would also like to see a more balanced male to female staff ratio, personally.

I'm enjoying the game but it's not as immersive as it once was and part of that is because seems like you kind of play to no end because you can't climb rank and it causes the story to be very surface level then stagnate regularly.  There is really nothing "hooking me."  And at this rate I see myself staying for some months, or a year at a time but, not engrossed for years as I once was - which hey, is probably a good thing.

I also think we absolutely need good Veteran players as examples.  Right now, what disappoints me the most is that the lore seems a bit optional and I still maintain there's a big focus on good and PK as opposed to story ATM.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Krath on October 26, 2018, 01:53:51 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 01:27:19 PM
To me, this is the biggest problem I have with the game right now.  Characters are ham strung and have no real manner of ascension available to them.  The staff are holding all of the power cards/roles and everything seems highly micromanaged.  I had posed some questions earlier in this thread that I feel are valid and they never got a response. 

The staff are saying they took the ability to climb rank away to "fix it" but no one is saying what was wrong with it to begin with - there have been several successful characters that climbed rank to Lieutenant, Red Robe etc.  And no one is giving a timeline on when this "fix" will occur.  It's very unsatisfying to play a leadership role (which can already be pretty thankless) and have no support for obtaining more power in game and to only constantly be reminded you are a peon within your role.  Where does the reward of putting time into a game come in?  Then on top of that no one is enforcing lore or social norms so the RP suffers.

To responsd more to your latter point, I absolutely think there should be someone in charge of staff/player relations and I agree about interpersonal skills.  I do think staff have made a greater effort to be more available and kind than staff I have seen in the past but I agree with a lot of what you're saying.  There is micromanaging both in and outside of the game.  I would also like to see a more balanced male to female staff ratio, personally.

I'm enjoying the game but it's not as immersive as it once was and part of that is because seems like you kind of play to no end because you can't climb rank and it causes the story to be very surface level then stagnate regularly.  There is really nothing "hooking me."  And at this rate I see myself staying for some months, or a year at a time but, not engrossed for years as I once was - which hey, is probably a good thing.

I agree with Bebop's points written here. The Glass Ceiling is a pain in the butt for leadership roles, with the exception of the Merchant Houses it seems. We can have Senior Agents and merchants, but not Senior Nobles?

I think it would be helpful if a Producer wrote on here what the plan is regarding the glass ceiling, and if there is no chance of this being changed, be direct about it and why . It would also be helpful if there was something the -playerbase- could do to drive the change, that staff would let us know. I can promise, if staff said We need to see more of X Y or Z, you would get a ton of helpers willing to assist.


Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 02:09:16 PM
Quote from: Krath on October 26, 2018, 01:53:51 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 01:27:19 PM
To me, this is the biggest problem I have with the game right now.  Characters are ham strung and have no real manner of ascension available to them.  The staff are holding all of the power cards/roles and everything seems highly micromanaged.  I had posed some questions earlier in this thread that I feel are valid and they never got a response. 

The staff are saying they took the ability to climb rank away to "fix it" but no one is saying what was wrong with it to begin with - there have been several successful characters that climbed rank to Lieutenant, Red Robe etc.  And no one is giving a timeline on when this "fix" will occur.  It's very unsatisfying to play a leadership role (which can already be pretty thankless) and have no support for obtaining more power in game and to only constantly be reminded you are a peon within your role.  Where does the reward of putting time into a game come in?  Then on top of that no one is enforcing lore or social norms so the RP suffers.

To responsd more to your latter point, I absolutely think there should be someone in charge of staff/player relations and I agree about interpersonal skills.  I do think staff have made a greater effort to be more available and kind than staff I have seen in the past but I agree with a lot of what you're saying.  There is micromanaging both in and outside of the game.  I would also like to see a more balanced male to female staff ratio, personally.

I'm enjoying the game but it's not as immersive as it once was and part of that is because seems like you kind of play to no end because you can't climb rank and it causes the story to be very surface level then stagnate regularly.  There is really nothing "hooking me."  And at this rate I see myself staying for some months, or a year at a time but, not engrossed for years as I once was - which hey, is probably a good thing.

I agree with Bebop's points written here. The Glass Ceiling is a pain in the butt for leadership roles, with the exception of the Merchant Houses it seems. We can have Senior Agents and merchants, but not Senior Nobles?

This is another issue.  Certain clans can climb... others can't.  So you have a noble that's been alive forever stay in the same rank while a Merchant might climb to Apprentice Agent, Agent and Senior Agent.  You have a Byn Sarge stay a Byn Sarge and you have a sneaky climbing rank in the Guild.  You can be a Blue Robe but not a Red Robe, and now some Templars can't even control their soldiers?  There's way too much micromanaging going on and even more so it's not evenly shared across the board.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: lairos on October 26, 2018, 03:09:23 PM
Regarding advancement, I have always thought it was strange about Merchants and their ability to distinguish and have their own set of ranks. I know Brokkr said they put in a system, but also said no one has been able to reach what was implemented yet and are looking at way to have one with nobility. There have been a lot of changes and this is one I am still trying to see what happens with and what changes are made to the systems that have been put in place regarding their difficulty and time.

The glass ceiling is something I for one had a hard time with previously and it can make roles feel stagnant. The same can be said for things that are too difficult to achieve as well. We all play the game to have fun and if there is nothing to achieve or things that are too high up to reach to achieve it becomes harder to have the desire to continue.

There have been things that have happened that players have been able to control to a degree and those take a lot of work on staffs end, but they also leave a meaningful impact on the player and makes them feel more apart of the lasting story of the game than just character #102 or whatever.

At the end of the day, I see a lot of changes happening for the better, but some of them still need tweaking to be something that jives for the game and the players. I do think staff are trying to get them there and hopefully we see more of this to come. I do feel like the responses I have received from staff and the interaction I have been getting is better than ever.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 26, 2018, 03:16:18 PM
My characters are rarely the leader type, and I have no real wish to be. Mostly because my play times tend to go from every night to once a month at at moments notice. I have, however, taken part as a peon in most clans, and I'd like to point something out from my perspective. Some players that are great players make awful leaders. The "organizer" for example, is one type that I just have no patience for. (No offense if you think this means you) I'm fairly certain that this is not necessarily an IC thing either. "Please spend the entire three hours you have online tonight reorganizing the warehouse." F'n snoozeville man. One time, my PC's unwillingness to do this incredibly boring and meaningless task was met with outright hostility. IC but with that OOC meanness bleeding through. Another time, I was absent for a couple of weeks for RL reasons, and when I signed back in for a short time, my IC "boss" happened to enter the room just as I was logging out. Next time I came on, I was ejected from the clan for "avoiding" them. All I'm saying is, if you are permitted to advance to a leader role, please remember the peons want to have fun playing, and not everyone likes menial, repetitive tasks all the time. Come up with interesting things to do that your minions can enjoy.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on October 26, 2018, 03:45:34 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on October 26, 2018, 03:16:18 PMAnother time, I was absent for a couple of weeks for RL reasons, and when I signed back in for a short time, my IC "boss" happened to enter the room just as I was logging out. Next time I came on, I was ejected from the clan for "avoiding" them.

I'd be really interested, to know how that ended up. Did you go to the staff over it?

That kind of player is, tbh, exactly the reason, why I avoid joining clans, and avoid much the social sphere of the game. Not enough free time, to waste it on uppity pencil pushers. They always seem to end up, with sponsor roles, too.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Medena on October 26, 2018, 04:21:14 PM
Regarding lack of upward mobility in roles:

I guess I'm one of those people who are more process-oriented than goal-oriented.  It's all about the journey rather than the destination.  Sure, I'd love to have a fancy title and wield some power, who wouldn't,  but I'd find both meaningless if to get there, I had to do a lot of what I think of as "make believe" for lack of a better term.  By that I mean such things as RP'ing with vnpc's, manipulating things and people in the virtual world, RP'ing with NPCs who may or may not respond.  Don't get me wrong, I do interact with the virtual world, we all should and sometimes we -must- because we cannot actually do such things as build a house or burn down a tree or create a new cooking recipe on the spot.  But personally, I much prefer the plots and stories that really happen and unfold in real time.  Those on their own are probably not going to take me to a promotion and that's fine with me.

If I were ever to attain a senior position, say a senior noble, I'd fear that I'd again have to do "make believe" in order to keep playing out the life of my PC.  What other senior nobles would I have to roleplay with?  Who could I scheme against within my House?  Who would I plot against or ally with in other Houses?  If my aide were to die or get stored, how would I replace them?  A senior noble doesn't hire neophytes to be their aide and there seems to be a real shortage of aides in Allanak as it is.

So, getting to the point of all my rambling, I don't think there is or ever can be a structure which will support senior echelon roles.  There needs to be enough other PC's in such roles and, in addition, enough suitable minions.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 04:53:16 PM
Quote from: Medena on October 26, 2018, 04:21:14 PM
Regarding lack of upward mobility in roles:

I guess I'm one of those people who are more process-oriented than goal-oriented.  It's all about the journey rather than the destination.  Sure, I'd love to have a fancy title and wield some power, who wouldn't,  but I'd find both meaningless if to get there, I had to do a lot of what I think of as "make believe" for lack of a better term.  By that I mean such things as RP'ing with vnpc's, manipulating things and people in the virtual world, RP'ing with NPCs who may or may not respond.  Don't get me wrong, I do interact with the virtual world, we all should and sometimes we -must- because we cannot actually do such things as build a house or burn down a tree or create a new cooking recipe on the spot.  But personally, I much prefer the plots and stories that really happen and unfold in real time.  Those on their own are probably not going to take me to a promotion and that's fine with me.

If I were ever to attain a senior position, say a senior noble, I'd fear that I'd again have to do "make believe" in order to keep playing out the life of my PC.  What other senior nobles would I have to roleplay with?  Who could I scheme against within my House?  Who would I plot against or ally with in other Houses?  If my aide were to die or get stored, how would I replace them?  A senior noble doesn't hire neophytes to be their aide and there seems to be a real shortage of aides in Allanak as it is.

So, getting to the point of all my rambling, I don't think there is or ever can be a structure which will support senior echelon roles.  There needs to be enough other PC's in such roles and, in addition, enough suitable minions.

Medena,  I agree with you.  To me it is less about power and more about the journey.  But in order to have a journey you STILL need a destination.  You still need a character with an end goal in mind.  If your character wants to do well in their House or clan that should be rewarded.  I don't know why you're associating doing well in game with "make believe" or virtual role play.  If I'm a Byn Sergeant and I lead many successful contracts, create profit for the company and keep my men alive over a long period of time - I should be rewarded with upward mobility.  If I'm a noble that is profitable, represents my House well, does what I'm told and earns respect, I should be rewarded with upward mobility.  Etc.  All of these characters should also have exhibited a level of OOC trustworthiness and capacity as an IG leader.

You don't need to RP virtually to earn upward mobility and you don't have to be power hungry to want upward mobility.  Promotion shouldn't be easily and instantly obtained, but it SHOULD be obtainable to at least a minor degree.  A HUGE part of politicking is power.  I'm currently reading a book called the 40 Laws of Power which is this massive Machiavellian sort of book that goes on and on through ages of history about con artists, courtiers, nobility, leaders etc and how they obtained power and status.  If you can't obtain power and status in some of these roles where that's literally your meat and potatoes you've pretty much neutered the role.  Then you really do have make believe because you're just role playing like you can climb the ladder when there's really no ladder to climb because of an OOC rule.  And that's crap to be honest.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on October 26, 2018, 05:20:14 PM
Getting promoted as a Noble and a Templar to Senior Noble and Red Templar means a degree of power that is hard to RP.  Much of what you should be doing at those ranks would be virtual.  More importantly, you have power over other nobles or nobles/templars, sometimes up to the power of life and death over the folks who are meant to be your peers.  Which is just as plot killing as a Lirathu Templar.  The time you spent accumulating power through politics with the templarate, shady organizations, GMH, budding MMH, etc. is not longer useful or especially relevant, since socially and through the power structure of your House or the Templarate you sort of have that power through your new rank.  It invalidates the struggle that other PCs can provide you with.  Which means that true, risky conflict can only come from Staff, and a sizeable portion of players would rather not have that.  On the other hand, we don't want anyone in a position that they don't have the potential for conflict.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 05:54:25 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 26, 2018, 05:20:14 PM
Getting promoted as a Noble and a Templar to Senior Noble and Red Templar means a degree of power that is hard to RP.  Much of what you should be doing at those ranks would be virtual.  More importantly, you have power over other nobles or nobles/templars, sometimes up to the power of life and death over the folks who are meant to be your peers.  Which is just as plot killing as a Lirathu Templar.  The time you spent accumulating power through politics with the templarate, shady organizations, GMH, budding MMH, etc. is not longer useful or especially relevant, since socially and through the power structure of your House or the Templarate you sort of have that power through your new rank.  It invalidates the struggle that other PCs can provide you with.  Which means that true, risky conflict can only come from Staff, and a sizeable portion of players would rather not have that.  On the other hand, we don't want anyone in a position that they don't have the potential for conflict.

First of all, you're talking about plot killing.  What plot killing is there when for decades this game has said that nobility plot to ascend.  Historically in the real world and historically in the game that has been the aim of nobility and this leads to the tagline murder, corruption, betrayal.  What are people vying for in Zalanthas?  Power.  Authority.  Prestige and the money and resources that go with it.  If you take away people's ability to strive for power because you don't trust them with it then you have effectively removed the primary reward players were seeking in a role play game.   You have completely removed what nobility roles have been known for for RL decades IRL and IG.

Secondly, power ascension is standard and normal in RP games.  That's like saying people can't be the Prince in Vampire the Masquerade anymore, or that can't play Primogen (head of their clans) and that story tellers are just going to do it.  It's like saying in Amtgard people can't become King or Queen.  It's like saying in Skyrim you're not going to become an earl or leader etc.  That's like running a D and D campaign with your friends for a few years and then after awhile telling them they have to stop leveling because they're getting too powerful. You adjust as a DM you don't make your players stop playing.  This is a game.  There has to be a sense of reward and social scaling.

I would like to understand where this concept has come from that giving PC's the ability to actually gain power has been damaging to the game when it has worked for years upon years, in fact for the majority of the life of the game?  Some of the most noteworthy characters were characters that achieved that power like Great Lord Samos, like Lieutenant Raul, Lieutenant Paryl and Senior Lady Ceylara (sp?) Borsail.  And they weren't damaging to their peers, they were put into those positions because they could be trusted with their peers and were only put into those positions when they had more than effectively proved that.  They didn't kill plots they created plots and they are still extremely memorable characters because of all of the dimension and stories they brought to the game.  How is appropriate for staff to suddenly snatch up these roles and monopolize them.  How is it rewarding for these roles to be held by NPCs?

Those characters started plots, and what's more is even the people that didn't like then wanted to BE them.  They knew if those characters were taken out and that if they could work as hard and live as long they too could achieve those grand heights.  The world felt possible and open.

You absolutely can not have a game centered around getting power and resources and achieving that through social means and then take away the roles' ability to achieve power and status through social means.  Then on top of that keep reminding them over real life months and real life years that they're shit heels to a bunch of NPCs.  It doesn't make any sense.  It doesn't work.  It weakens the plot, it causes players to stagnate.

You also say at those levels truly risky conflict can only come from Staff.  Absolutely not true.  And with what you've done you've already made players completely reliant on staff.  You've already done what you're claiming to try and avoid.  Magickers were a threat to high level Templars as were sorcercers.  If you're a senior noble crafter you're just as susceptible to backstab then as you were as a junior noble.  If you're a Lieutenant in the Byn and your dual wield is at max you're just a susceptible to death as being a Sergeant with your dual wield at max.  Changing what your character is called doesn't make them any less likely to die, it just means if someone kills them and implicates themselves they will suffer greater repercussions. 

They don't have to interact with NPCs historically there has been plenty to do, just like Agents have plenty to do.  It's a game, make it work for players.  Give them something to looking forward to.  This whole "they'd have to interact with NPCs thing" is bullocks.  Historically, players rising in rank has worked longer than it's been taken away.

Ultimately, you can say whatever you want but if you take a game about trying to climb the social ladder and you remove the social ladder to climb - you don't have a game.  You have ERP, squabbling and flash pan surface level conflicts that are never going to go anywhere and I'm pretty sure that that's why at the moment the game feels a bit soulless because there is no depth of story and everything is pigeonholed and micromanaged by staff hopping into high ranking NPCs to call all of the big shots.

I would much rather obey a PC Lieutenant or quiver in the shadow of a PC Red Robe, or scurry out of the way of a senior noble who has earned the trust of staff, has spent hours in the role and knows them and their clan super well then always be reliant upon staff inserting themselves momentarily here and there as the "big bads." 
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: evilcabbage on October 26, 2018, 06:17:21 PM
you... can't become an earl in skyrim.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 06:21:09 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 26, 2018, 06:17:21 PM
you... can't become an earl in skyrim.

O_O You know what I mean cabbage a ... I can't remember what you become when you get that annoying woman who is sworn to carry your burden but my point is you get titles and become the dovahkiin you don't follow around an NPC dovahkiin the NPC follows you.  If you were following the NPC around instead of vice versa that game would suck.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: evilcabbage on October 26, 2018, 06:38:02 PM
a thane.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Intrepid on October 26, 2018, 09:39:49 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 26, 2018, 06:21:09 PM
O_O You know what I mean cabbage a ... I can't remember what you become when you get that annoying woman who is sworn to carry your burden but my point is you get titles and become the dovahkiin you don't follow around an NPC dovahkiin the NPC follows you.  If you were following the NPC around instead of vice versa that game would suck.

Forgive me, Bebop.  I'm about to go into nerd moment.

The Thane title in Whiterun is not really anything.  It's honorary and it gets you one free pass ever with the guard in that city.  Sure, you gain a fanatic bodyguard, but you can do that with the low low price of just 500 septims and no title.  Aside from those factors, you never really see it come up again.  I'd barely call it an achievement.

Ok, I'll stop now.  Promise.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Harmless on October 26, 2018, 10:27:48 PM
what if there was an ascended rank available for multiple role types -- be it a Lieutenant, senior noble, elementalist [redacted], etc, but it was only available for a specific period of time before everyone agrees in advance that you will be eventually stored and made virtual. During that time, you get to use (or abuse) your power, get your revenge on old foes, get your magickal jollies, or lead a few epic military campaigns, and you only get there with LOTS of IC effort and preparation. Plans for the things you intend to do need to be proposed in advance through requests, and if they are approved, you are basically promoted just to attempt (possibly fail) those plans/actions once promoted/ascended, then once that fizzles out, you go virtual.

It'd still be pretty rewarding, it would lead to impacts in the game world, but it doesn't commit either the player or staff to a neverending task of catering to a very powerful PC.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Eyeball on October 27, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Lizzie on October 27, 2018, 04:32:15 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 27, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.

You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

So now you have to re-schedule the whole thing, because you need to make it as inclusive as possible.

Yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, to do on the regular. It's hard enough to organize a festival once or twice a RL year. But to try and get 15 players interacting with each other, every RL week, with minimal arranging off-camera? And NOT burn out after a few months? Good luck with that. If there are 3 players in this game, including staff, who are up for that, I'd be surprised. And if ONE of them was actually interested in doing it, I'd be shocked.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Krath on October 27, 2018, 05:45:20 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 27, 2018, 04:32:15 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 27, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.

You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

So now you have to re-schedule the whole thing, because you need to make it as inclusive as possible.

Yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, to do on the regular. It's hard enough to organize a festival once or twice a RL year. But to try and get 15 players interacting with each other, every RL week, with minimal arranging off-camera? And NOT burn out after a few months? Good luck with that. If there are 3 players in this game, including staff, who are up for that, I'd be surprised. And if ONE of them was actually interested in doing it, I'd be shocked.

While this is correct, shouldn't the player be able to decide if they want that level of responsibility? Just because one person does not want that level of responsibility that  does not mean everyone else should not be allowed the choice to take it on.

Maybe I read you post wrong too.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 28, 2018, 03:35:51 PM
Quote from: Krath on October 27, 2018, 05:45:20 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 27, 2018, 04:32:15 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 27, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
Don't see why a Byn lieutenant wouldn't work. Have a couple of PC sergeants. Also have some of those unit-sized "NPC"s the lieutenant can call up and puppet as needed, but put strict rules on their use (e.g. only actually used in battle during attacks on the city and the like when the whole warband is being employed). And an adjutant NPC that the lieutenant can trail around and puppet the way nobles puppet their bodyguards.

The lieutenant would basically function like a Sergeant but with more troops available and a few coded perks. No need for any special attention from the staff. I thought it worked well when Raul was around.

You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

So now you have to re-schedule the whole thing, because you need to make it as inclusive as possible.

Yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, to do on the regular. It's hard enough to organize a festival once or twice a RL year. But to try and get 15 players interacting with each other, every RL week, with minimal arranging off-camera? And NOT burn out after a few months? Good luck with that. If there are 3 players in this game, including staff, who are up for that, I'd be surprised. And if ONE of them was actually interested in doing it, I'd be shocked.

While this is correct, shouldn't the player be able to decide if they want that level of responsibility? Just because one person does not want that level of responsibility that  does not mean everyone else should not be allowed the choice to take it on.

Maybe I read you post wrong too.

I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bogre on October 28, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 27, 2018, 04:32:15 PM
You'd be managing too much stuff off-camera to really get to enjoy any on-camera activity. The more units you have under your command, the more units you are responsible for. If you have one unit of 5 Bynners, that's just 5 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT. If you have 3 units of 5 Bynners, you now have 15 people you have to try and get logged in for an RPT.  Most of that arranging is done on the forum board, not in game. It's a "hey can you all log in for at least 3 hours on Friday?" followed by 8 people giving an opinion, and 7 people not responding at all. Of those 8 who give an opinion, maybe 3 of them can actually do it.

This is really no different than things currently, with any leadership role.

The 'power' differential is not really that huge of an issue. Say: A Red Robe is supremely powerful, yeah, and is supposed to command an entire legion. Say another PC makes Red Robe - and becomes exponentially more powerful. Does it really matter? As a Blue you can already point to nearly any PC you want and summarily execute them, and codedly turn people into boiled ocotillo snacks on a whim anyways. So the other PC Blue robes are now shitting their robes around you - so what? That's what the IC NPC Red Robe templars represent. If they hate you that much they can plot your downfall.

You don't really gain the ability to decide to march on Luirs or whatever - because you still have constraints from above (The councils, Staff, black robes, the big guy himself) etc. But maybe you have marshaled the resources to implement major change, to make a mark on the world. And hopefully, there would be some folks who would rise to challenge that, and others to do your terrible bidding.

The game stagnates when we just play out repetitions on 'I'm a Byn Sarge now, now I'm a rogue magicker, now I'm a dwarf raider'. We don't want to kick around in nicely lined character plans. We want the chance to be the Byn Sarge who broke the enemy flank, the rogue Whiran who's storms raged across the Red for a decade, the dwarf raider who leads a goddamn army to the gates of Allanak. Maybe to be those Red Robes dueling in the streets for power.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Eyeball on October 28, 2018, 04:31:03 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 28, 2018, 03:35:51 PM
I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*

Could be but doesn't have to be.

Just as a segment of players loves politics and backroom intrigue, another segment just likes to go out and kick ass.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: ShaLeah on October 28, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 28, 2018, 04:31:03 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 28, 2018, 03:35:51 PM
I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*

Could be but doesn't have to be.

Just as a segment of players loves politics and backroom intrigue, another segment just likes to go out and kick ass.

The higher up you go in ANY organization the more trusted you are with its inner workings. On Zalanthas where mistakes cost you not only your job but frequently your life and that of anyone unfortunately around you sometimes, giving a Lieutenant too much badassery power reminds me of just a sergeant.  Not that they aren't badasses but they're done.  They paid their dues, it's time for the next level.

I've always associated them on par with GMH agents and NH advisors. I'm not going to waste a Lieutenant on just any old contract.  They're z NOT expendable.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bigbruiser on October 29, 2018, 09:08:15 AM
I love how we can post about something that just happened on the GDB and instantly make me realize who the person on the forum plays, even if they tried to be vague. Stay classy Allanak
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 29, 2018, 10:45:50 AM
Another side effect of the gameworld being too small.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 29, 2018, 11:05:30 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 28, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on October 28, 2018, 04:31:03 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 28, 2018, 03:35:51 PM
I'd think of ANY Lieutenant role as more political than active troop leadership. *shrug*

Could be but doesn't have to be.

Just as a segment of players loves politics and backroom intrigue, another segment just likes to go out and kick ass.

The higher up you go in ANY organization the more trusted you are with its inner workings. On Zalanthas where mistakes cost you not only your job but frequently your life and that of anyone unfortunately around you sometimes, giving a Lieutenant too much badassery power reminds me of just a sergeant.  Not that they aren't badasses but they're done.  They paid their dues, it's time for the next level.

I've always associated them on par with GMH agents and NH advisors. I'm not going to waste a Lieutenant on just any old contract.  They're z NOT expendable.

On this topic (just my opinion, I like me my Byn):

A Sergeant, by all means, should be negotiating with the aides of nobles. Usually meeting in some dingy bar or, if they're looking to impress, something fancier like Red's Retreat. You've been through battle, you've seen the other side. You know what can be done, and how much it is going to cost. You're still a shit-smeared fuckwit with JUST enough respect to get a few hands together to do the work.

A Lieutenant is the one meeting with Nobility personally. Making assurances about what can be done, negotiating the kinds of contract work that takes multiple units (full on raids, expensive protection, long-term placement, etc). The Lieutenant is an Officer now. They're not just some brawny idiot who is good with a sword. They've proven their mettle, they are loyal to the Company, and they know how to comport themselves.

I would NEVER expect to see a Lieutenant on the field unless there is Nobility out there who have arranged for a private guard, or there is a new encampment being set up and the Lieutenant pissed off a Captain and has "Desert Duty" for a few weeks. So a PC Lieutenant, to me, seems to be more of the Political Schemer in the Byn, while the multitude of Sergeants is MORE for RPT/Quest work. How long as Lieutenant Copper been wanting to be done with her position? How tired is she? She has to promote a dozen new Sergeants a year because they keep dying, and none of them can replace her.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 29, 2018, 12:21:51 PM
There's a level of cooperative, but conflict between the sergeants of different units in the Byn.

Lieutenants should hobnobble with nobility, while Sargeants only deal with aides? Let's be honest. Sargeants scheme with Nobles just as fine. All you need to do is be better then your other sargeants.

Lieutenants are too important to go out into the field? Let's be honest. Unless it's something minor like a spider patrol, or perhaps even that. Lieutenant PCs still went on that patrol if there was nothing to currently do in the city, or there was a lack of hitting power currently logged in at the time.


The only thing Lieutenants have that a Sargeant doesnt, is authority 'within' the Byn. Authority over 'other' Sargeants and that is moot when there are no sargeants anyway, or unfair, when there are, but you're not really all that unquestionably better/more influencial/revered then them.

It's not difficult to become a Byn lieutenant. You just need to grow the Byn so much, that they become in need of an lieutenant, due to the sheer numbers and contracts pouring in. They need someone with a decisive authority over the other three sargeants.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Eyeball on October 29, 2018, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 29, 2018, 12:21:51 PM
Lieutenants are too important to go out into the field? Let's be honest. Unless it's something minor like a spider patrol, or perhaps even that. Lieutenant PCs still went on that patrol if there was nothing to currently do in the city, or there was a lack of hitting power currently logged in at the time.

Exactly. Raul went out in the field all of the time. He died in the field along with many Byn, defending Allanak against fire elementals. He was probably the best PC Byn Lieutenant of them all.

Koman Locke should have been made a Lieutenant given the way he built warband Fury up in his time.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 29, 2018, 12:55:01 PM
Yeah. I'd be curious to learn why didnt it happen. If I understood correctly, Byn was pretty kicking at the time. Was it the no-elves policy?  I wasnt in the Byn, so not enough information to really understand it, or talk about it.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 29, 2018, 01:12:09 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 29, 2018, 12:21:51 PM
It's not difficult to become a Byn lieutenant. You just need to grow the Byn so much, that they become in need of an lieutenant, due to the sheer numbers and contracts pouring in. They need someone with a decisive authority over the other three sargeants.

This, as an estranged Veteran, is where I hold a lot of issue. I need to, personally, grow the PC-side of the T'zai Byn Company by so much that staff "have" to give me a Lieutenant position?

Why can't I become a Lieutenant because I'm trying my best? Why can't I become a Lieutenant because I've survived, brought in a lot of coin for the Company, and want to dedicate myself to the Mercenary life as an Officer? Why am I relegated to needed to spend so much of my REAL LIFE free time hoping my players, and my staff are all working at the same time to make things interesting, so I have the CHANCE at a role?

It IS difficult to become a Lieutenant. It should be. But currently by Staff policy its not possible, and the only workaround is to have 20 RL friends all in the clan with you. This is why I cannot play this game anymore. Merit. Time invested. In game consequences. None of it seems to matter unless you do some IRL impressive.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 29, 2018, 01:24:10 PM
Because the difference between a Sargeant and Lieutenant is that you have authority over other sargeants. That's all.  Trying your best shouldnt be enough. You should be head and toe better then 'other' sargeants.

But what if there are no new sargeants, or just one other sargeant? Then what's a point of a Lieutenant? It's just an attempt to get a 'coded' one up over another sargeant. And if there isnt one and later on, one gets sponsored in, suddenly you are in greater authority over them, for ... for what? For defaulting due to time served?

Truth of the matter is that a Lt. position should only be fair to be given to a player, if there is a shitton of other people in that clan. The moment there isnt, it disbalances the power equalibrium between different units, giving one a coded, inarguable, unmanueverable advantage. This doesnt 'create' conflict, it reduces it and for what specific benefit?  What's the trade off? An ego boost to a person who played long enough in the clan unchallenged?


This is why I like playing Celves. No coded ranks. You're as high in rank as your personal skill and ability is allowing you to be. Someone hungrier shows up? Best try harder to stay up, or they'll take take over. No clan that can call me title X and suddenly I'm a big kahuna, regardless of how shitty I am, compared to someone else.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Miradus on October 29, 2018, 01:39:18 PM

One thing that has "estranged" me to a degree (not to a degree that I've stopped playing) is the system of sponsored roles.

For example, I saw once where you had 7 players in a merchant house. The sponsored role controlling that merchant house died. Of those 7 players, 2-3 of them had been in the house for over a RL year. But instead of promoting one of those up, staff brought in a new sponsored role to come in.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but as an outsider I kept wondering why the house didn't promote from within. There's rules in the house documents for that. Blood marriages and such, or simply just appoint one of them an 'ad hoc' overseer and leave them in charge. Instead, someone got the roll who didn't know the people, didn't know the dynamic, and apparently didn't get along because within about a month the house self-destructed.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 29, 2018, 01:58:38 PM
Quote from: Miradus on October 29, 2018, 01:39:18 PM

One thing that has "estranged" me to a degree (not to a degree that I've stopped playing) is the system of sponsored roles.

For example, I saw once where you had 7 players in a merchant house. The sponsored role controlling that merchant house died. Of those 7 players, 2-3 of them had been in the house for over a RL year. But instead of promoting one of those up, staff brought in a new sponsored role to come in.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but as an outsider I kept wondering why the house didn't promote from within. There's rules in the house documents for that. Blood marriages and such, or simply just appoint one of them an 'ad hoc' overseer and leave them in charge. Instead, someone got the roll who didn't know the people, didn't know the dynamic, and apparently didn't get along because within about a month the house self-destructed.

Sometimes those situations are a little weird. But sometimes straight forward. Last time I was in the Byn for example, the time neared for when we'd need another sargeant. There were also a bunch of 'very' capable Troopers hopping around at the time. Unfortunately, many of those troopers have 'played' Sargeants before, 'were' known for beingcapable leaders, often took over leadership during the moments when sergeants were indisposed, knew 'exactly' what that role demands, and simply did not want to be promoted. They simply were not interested in leadership. They didnt have the desire, or the time investment that the role requires, or a combination of both. That usually results in a sponsored role. Which at times gets complicated. Because there you have a group of people who work well together, but none of them wants to be a leader, despite many of them being capable. A sponsored role comes in who 'wants' to be leader, but often has difficulty overcoming the cohesiveness of the group and the skill and personal gravitas of some of sponsored role's own underlings. Sometimes, the sponsored role succeeds and reinforces his rule, sometimes it turns out badly. Nobody here to blame really. It is, what it is. Though, I suppose, sometimes it's something else entirely. Like Staff not believing the current members to be worthy of leadership and then sponsoring in someone who is even worse at leadership then those present. Pretty sure shit like that happened as well. But again, it's too convoluted, intricate, and variable and issue for there to be a single simple clearcut answer.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Miradus on October 29, 2018, 02:03:13 PM

Yeah, it's a complicated system.

I guess all in all I'd just like to hear from staff that there's a system in place to always TRY to push from within the group first before bringing in the outsider.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on October 29, 2018, 02:59:29 PM
A lot of time, the characters, not players, in the grunt roles aren't always optimal, so promoting from within doesn't always work.

When I was staff, a player suggested having a contest in Salarr to see who would be promoted. It actually worked really well and I hope it was enjoyable to all involved: those who competed wanted the promotion. Those who didn't chose a side to help win. It was a fun plot to run.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 29, 2018, 03:11:14 PM
In the end. Coded rank ascension cant be the answer to character development. It either lessens the value of the rank, or puts the character to such a position that without active virtual opposition the character might as well be Tektolnes.

A difference between senior and junior nobles is vast. Since senior nobles hobnob with red robes. How fair is it for a new sponsored in junior noble if the senior noble handicaps new ones to maintain his control.  Same with Red Robe vs blue Robes dynamic. Lt. Vs Sargeants. Etc.

If virtual world was as active as every other player there, it wouldn't be a problem. An Lt. Would have other Lts. To conflict with and the influence challenges of sargeants would be as insignificant to him as would a Troopers vying for first trooper be to a sargeant.  Entertaining, very useful, but ultimately harmless and easily squishible if it gets out of bounds.

But the way the game is. Player Sargeants should 'never' be easily squishible by another player.  Nor should blue robes, or junior nobles.  The only player who should ever be able to achieve the tier of senior noble/red robe/Lt is someone who literally clawed his way through extreme opposition, cowed it, and made it is bitch. One that worships him and follows him regardless of what rank he or she officially is.

Or ... someone who is fated to die whenever some particular objective is complete to restore equalibrium.


So no. Vertical promotion is not a viable system in Armageddon. Lateral promotion though is viable. But ... requires creativity and major changes in society. I guess they are working on introducing and solidifying it with Templars right now. Hopefully more will come.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 29, 2018, 03:51:47 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 29, 2018, 03:11:14 PM
How fair is it for a new sponsored in junior noble if the senior noble handicaps new ones to maintain his control.  Same with Red Robe vs blue Robes dynamic. Lt. Vs Sargeants. Etc.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, here. There are plenty of other varying power disparities in the game already that are just as you suggest here, with junior nobles/templars vs. commoners, and Sergeants vs. Runners and such. Is it "fair"? Of course not. But Arm has never been about "fair". There are characters in the game who can snap their fingers and erase other characters from existence, just by virtue of their role. Why shouldn't those characters also have someone to answer to, or fidget beneath the yoke of?

As they say, shit rolls downhill.

I think there are some legitimate rationales for not having higher ranks in the game, in some instances. But I don't think this is one of them.

I think Lt's would be fine in the Byn. Red Robes are a bit iffy, only because I feel like the population is small enough that someone playing a Red Robe, who should largely be above all the petty day to day affairs that characters deal with, would likely get bored OOCly and meddle in things that really shouldn't even be a blip on the radar of a Red Robe. Much like Lirathan Templars in Tuluk often got involved in really petty shit that shouldn't draw their attention, simply out of OOC boredom.

I'm not opposed to Red Robe's being in the game. I'd like to have characters have more to strive towards. But were someone to get there, I think that they should have clear, concise instructions on how they're expected to conduct themselves in the role. For instance, not routinely interacting with commoners, and instead directing their efforts through PC templars and nobles, essentially getting other mid-high rank PCs to be their minions and deal with the micro of it all. That wouldn't mean they couldn't walk into the Gaj and drop an edict or something. But it should mean that they won't be routinely meeting with Shady McGuildThug from the Rinth.

A red robe should rarely, if ever, speak directly to anyone of lower social status than a noble/templar aide, in my opinion.(other than their own slaves, of course, but they're not PCs anyhow, unfortunately)

But if a player were to want to push for this role, despite being expected to follow these social protocols, I don't see a problem with letting them.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Miradus on October 29, 2018, 03:56:02 PM
Seems like all my posts this morning are causing drama I don't mean. My bad. Let me try to rein it in.

I'd like to see the potential pathway for vertical ascension. Even in a caste system you have people who usurp power, marry up, etc. Last decade's scandal is today's normality.

And from an ooc perspective, if you've already got players in a group ... look there first. An ounce of interest is better than a pound of skill.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bogre on October 29, 2018, 03:58:55 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 29, 2018, 03:11:14 PM
In the end. Coded rank ascension cant be the answer to character development. It either lessens the value of the rank, or puts the character to such a position that without active virtual opposition the character might as well be Tektolnes.

A difference between senior and junior nobles is vast. Since senior nobles hobnob with red robes. How fair is it for a new sponsored in junior noble if the senior noble handicaps new ones to maintain his control.  Same with Red Robe vs blue Robes dynamic. Lt. Vs Sargeants. Etc.

If virtual world was as active as every other player there, it wouldn't be a problem. An Lt. Would have other Lts. To conflict with and the influence challenges of sargeants would be as insignificant to him as would a Troopers vying for first trooper be to a sargeant.  Entertaining, very useful, but ultimately harmless and easily squishible if it gets out of bounds.

But the way the game is. Player Sargeants should 'never' be easily squishible by another player.  Nor should blue robes, or junior nobles.  The only player who should ever be able to achieve the tier of senior noble/red robe/Lt is someone who literally clawed his way through extreme opposition, cowed it, and made it is bitch. One that worships him and follows him regardless of what rank he or she officially is.

Or ... someone who is fated to die whenever some particular objective is complete to restore equalibrium.


So no. Vertical promotion is not a viable system in Armageddon. Lateral promotion though is viable. But ... requires creativity and major changes in society. I guess they are working on introducing and solidifying it with Templars right now. Hopefully more will come.

I'm going to totally disagree with this. Virtual opposition? No - players can have real opposition (or support) from other PCs. Is it unfair that your new junior noble is underneath the heel of someone else's senior noble? Yeah. It is. But otherwise - there's still some virtual PC (or Staff NPC) that is the senior noble. But it's just as unfair to be a city elf thrown in the jails by a templar. There's no need for it to be balanced. The junior noble can either choose to lick their senior's boots, or plot to overthrow them, or both. It's impossible, in the current situation, to plot upward ascension. Why try to supplant someone in your own house that's 1) A staff NPC and 2) even when winning would result in storage? That should change.

And if you don't limit ascension, you have the ability for outside influences to challenge the power of those select high PCs. Yes - Hardnose the Red has a lot of power. But there's a new Oashi Senior who's got control of a lot of money, a lot of gemmed, and is funding all sorts of shady characters. They are now in balance - and yeah, maybe there's a horrific sorceror out there who wouldn't mind turning the pair of them into jozhal steaks.

It should be something very difficult to do, but not impossible.

I mean - does anyone here lose sleep over night that some players in the past got to be a red robe, or a High Templar? 
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 04:15:57 PM
Honest question, why is a vocal subset of the pbase so hellbent on achieving rank and power? What will you do with it when you get there? Once you've won, what then? You'll go "raise the glass ceiling higher!" because you'll stagnate at that rank, rather than stagnating a rank below. It isn't really the power you want, whether you think it is or not. It is the challenge of reaching it. I argue that the challenge is still there. You can absolutely strive for power, but when you reach a certain point, well, you've won. Game over.

The journey and the struggle is the fun part.. and if you don't want to hit Red/Senior/Lt whatever and get stored, well, not every successful character has to have grand ambitions. Maybe you like being rank and file because it's less pressure. It doesn't have to be about reaching X fantasy rank, it's all smoke and mirrors anyway, since this is just a game. It's about creating interest and conflict with others, and jostling for position on the playing board is part of it, but why? Why are they jostling for position? What do they hope to achieve? What are their goals in life? That is the question you should ask yourself, and answer through in-character actions, beyond the simple and honestly rather flat response of "more power". Power for what?

I agree that there needs to be tangible goals to strive for and support for that, but really, those largely exist already. You can create them for yourself. Where things occasionally seem to fall through is with players and staff bringing to life and promoting the virtual world, and the reactions they should have to various situations and characters. From time to time, it does feel like a very small sandbox where vocal characters whose players can dedicate 6-8 hours a day to the game rise to prominence no matter how foolishly they behave, but... let's be real, that isn't a new problem, it's an old problem, and it waxes and wanes with everything else.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 29, 2018, 04:29:37 PM
For me, the journey and struggle means nothing, if the end isn't achievable at all. What fun is it scraping and plotting to become the freshest Lieutenant in the Byn, if you've been told you have no staff support, its not allowed, and the game world will not reflect any of your progress?

Its not just rank and power, those are (to me) just the easiest parallel to draw from. It is very disparaging to have a really cool or interesting idea and be told that the idea "won't be supported" or is "not possible". It is one thing if you're trying to apply to be a member of the X-Men, but if you want to achieve a certain goal (like, lets say, taking over an existing shop from an NPC elf), it is reliant on our Storytellers and Producers to both WANT and be ABLE to help us follow through on it.

In the time it takes to capture, mate, birth, and begin to train FIRE KANKS, there a lot that can go wrong. But if you're told that FIRE KANKS, as a result, is not something that will be supported.... why put your time into it? That doesn't seem like fun for me, and that is why I do not play. I tried it, with Sergeant Rush, to have a goal that staff said was "unlikely to be achievable", and he was still killed for (lets be real honest here) being the longest-lived Byn Sergeant and Templars wanting to make waves. That isn't the 'fun' struggle of doing things. Personally I don't want to be a Lieutenant, but I want other people to be able to try, so I can subvert them or help them as fitting.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 04:46:17 PM
Well. I mean. If you're playing this game to win it, you're gonna have a bad time.

Unless by "winning" you mean "adding interest, depth and complexity to the ongoing narrative", in which case, good job!

You have to accept that this isn't a game where you're playing the hero who wins. You're the supporting cast. Yes, even your popular leader who all the players adore. What more do you need? You're creating fun and intrigue for lots of people right where you are. What are you really going to get if you're promoted another rank, beyond OOC bragging rights?
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Eyeball on October 29, 2018, 05:05:00 PM
Pursuit of status, power and wealth is in the very core of male nature. Maybe the sexes are the same in Zalanthas, but players are human beings. Yes, women can want those things too, but men are driven to compete for them because, if we're being honest, it makes them more appealing to women. They don't even have to realize it, it's just instinctive.

I'm sure this will raise a howl of outrage, but I'm going to say it because I'm too reckless to keep my mouth shut. This trend toward a game of complex social relationships and collaboration (on the surface) and process over results seems more like a woman thing to me.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: mansa on October 29, 2018, 05:34:09 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 04:46:17 PM
Well. I mean. If you're playing this game to win it, you're gonna have a bad time.

Unless by "winning" you mean "adding interest, depth and complexity to the ongoing narrative", in which case, good job!

You have to accept that this isn't a game where you're playing the hero who wins. You're the supporting cast. Yes, even your popular leader who all the players adore. What more do you need? You're creating fun and intrigue for lots of people right where you are. What are you really going to get if you're promoted another rank, beyond OOC bragging rights?

If players are just supporting staff..
And staff are just supporting players..

Nobody does anything.  No change happens.

This was one of the reasons I stopped playing in 2010.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 29, 2018, 05:34:30 PM
Achievement should most definitely be a reachable goal. But not at the cost of others gameplay


Which is why I advocate there needs to be lateral rewards.

Extra priviliges, extra authority. Extra spells, little honors that can be gained and lost.

Things that add a little awesomeness to your career climbing pc, without making it game breaking.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bogre on October 29, 2018, 05:46:39 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 04:15:57 PM
Honest question, why is a vocal subset of the pbase so hellbent on achieving rank and power? What will you do with it when you get there? Once you've won, what then? You'll go "raise the glass ceiling higher!" because you'll stagnate at that rank, rather than stagnating a rank below. It isn't really the power you want, whether you think it is or not. It is the challenge of reaching it. I argue that the challenge is still there. You can absolutely strive for power, but when you reach a certain point, well, you've won. Game over.

The journey and the struggle is the fun part.. and if you don't want to hit Red/Senior/Lt whatever and get stored, well, not every successful character has to have grand ambitions.


I'm not sure it's a 'subset', I think it's a fairly predominant desire, as seen by the posts here. And whilst I agree that not every character need to aim for the skies, but having that as a possibility only serves to expand the options available. Simply 'wanting more power' is an oversimplification of that. A blue robe I once played didn't -want- to have power, and didn't want to succeed (hell, he hardly wanted to be a templar). This character, who really just wanted to relax and drink tea, nevertheless is thrust into the spotlight- it would have been even more of a conflict of interest if he had been pushed further and further. Other character drivers and goals are possible - the pursuit of a higher station could be tangential to that, as a reward, or as a goal in and of itself. More-over, there's not much about the 'journey' that is even possible if you are hamstrung in every respects or have very little ability to pursue goals along that path. If there's a glass ceiling, there's no 'journey' to get there, because you can't even start.

I think if you're inferring that there's a lot of players who just 'want more power', I think that's an incorrect. I think that a lot of players want the chance to put a mark on the game, other characters, and achieve something cool. That's not mutually exclusive with not being able to do things like achieve high rank, build a fortress, build your own coded clan/tribe/etc but being able to do all of those things opens the horizons.

It's not smoke and mirrors. People reminisce about the experiences, achievements, and tragedies this game has created for over two decades now.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on October 29, 2018, 06:34:37 PM
Quote from: Bogre on October 29, 2018, 05:46:39 PM
I'm not sure it's a 'subset', I think it's a fairly predominant desire, as seen by the posts here.

It looks like about a dozen or so people going on about it, with some some others making neutral comments.

I would call that, a subset, and a minor one, at that.

Quote from: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 04:15:57 PM
Honest question, why is a vocal subset of the pbase so hellbent on achieving rank and power?

Still remains the most relevant question, so far.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 29, 2018, 06:35:17 PM
Its a complicated situation.

There was once a Red Robe in allanak.

But that was during days when the guild had more psionicists, sorcerers, vampires, ghouls, shapechangers then mundane normal people. And even during 'that' time thematically the red robe was more powerful then all of those.

Now every blue has this emptiness inside them. They got all the influence, power, recognition that they can achieve. They are two heads ahead of all other blue robes. But ... no red robe promotion. Some other player managed it, but he cant! Its unfair!
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 29, 2018, 06:47:19 PM
Quote from: Bogre on October 29, 2018, 05:46:39 PM
It's not smoke and mirrors. People reminisce about the experiences, achievements, and tragedies this game has created for over two decades now.

I think this is a really good point, and brings up what, to me, seems to be an issue right now. For years and years, Armageddon was presented as a world in which players could really create something, and enact lasting change, forming tribes or organizations in a similar fashion to the Guild that could end up outliving their own character. This focus on creation was a playground for the imagination, and attracted people who had that desire to play in a dynamic world where they had only 1 "life" to live, but that it could matter, and leave a lasting impression.

I think, somewhere along the way, the focus on "creation" sort of took a back seat to convenience. And when paired with the closing of many elements of the game that had been created along the way(Tuluk, Gypsies, etc), along with strict rules about the creation of things like player tribes, it can sometimes feel like that vast magical playground of the imagination no longer exists, but has transformed into a much more narrowly defined sandbox, with strict rules on what your sand castle is allowed to look like, and how to go about building it.

Sort of like going from a blank canvas, to color by numbers.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Red Ranger on October 29, 2018, 07:14:42 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 29, 2018, 06:47:19 PM
Quote from: Bogre on October 29, 2018, 05:46:39 PM
It's not smoke and mirrors. People reminisce about the experiences, achievements, and tragedies this game has created for over two decades now.

I think this is a really good point, and brings up what, to me, seems to be an issue right now. For years and years, Armageddon was presented as a world in which players could really create something, and enact lasting change, forming tribes or organizations in a similar fashion to the Guild that could end up outliving their own character. This focus on creation was a playground for the imagination, and attracted people who had that desire to play in a dynamic world where they had only 1 "life" to live, but that it could matter, and leave a lasting impression.

I think, somewhere along the way, the focus on "creation" sort of took a back seat to convenience. And when paired with the closing of many elements of the game that had been created along the way(Tuluk, Gypsies, etc), along with strict rules about the creation of things like player tribes, it can sometimes feel like that vast magical playground of the imagination no longer exists, but has transformed into a much more narrowly defined sandbox, with strict rules on what your sand castle is allowed to look like, and how to go about building it.

Sort of like going from a blank canvas, to color by numbers.

This is close to my feeling.

I used to tell my friends that Arm is so much better than Everquest (for you young people, that was a popular MMORPG in the last century), because unlike the static Everquest literally anything was possible within the framework of the Arm world. Not probable, but possible. The trend to take away previously available roles eroded that feeling for me, and really cut into my immersion toward the end.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 07:20:50 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 29, 2018, 06:35:17 PM
Its a complicated situation.

There was once a Red Robe in allanak.

But that was during days when the guild had more psionicists, sorcerers, vampires, ghouls, shapechangers then mundane normal people. And even during 'that' time thematically the red robe was more powerful then all of those.

Now every blue has this emptiness inside them. They got all the influence, power, recognition that they can achieve. They are two heads ahead of all other blue robes. But ... no red robe promotion. Some other player managed it, but he cant! Its unfair!

And during that time, if you weren't a special powered character or directly allied with one, you felt absolutely useless.

That style of game made mundanes feel so irrelevant and be so irrelevant that we had the great Karma-off.

You all love to look back with rose-colored glasses but you forget the bad stuff that went along with the awesome.

I don't really have a solution to suggest right now, and I'm not saying what we have now should be the status quo - I absolutely think players should be able to impact the gameworld in a meaningful fashion - but how do we go about that without resulting in howls of outrage and favoritism from those who didn't succeed (for whatever reason) without somehow codifying the process and thus taking some of the spontaneous life out of it? It's not as simple as "raise the glass ceiling", if it were simple I'm sure it'd have been done.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bogre on October 29, 2018, 07:33:58 PM
@Vex - with a quick glance at the thread from start to finish, there's about 10 people who posted about the limitation of the glass ceiling, and four-five who were open to more mid-level promotions being opened up.

And about 4-5 non staff who posted against it, for the status quo.

So. While yes, you could argue that it's a 'subset' based on inadequate or vocal minority representation from the playerbase, I think it's more likely that the opposite is in fact true.

In the old GDB, we'd be a polling.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bogre on October 29, 2018, 07:42:46 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 07:20:50 PM
I don't really have a solution to suggest right now, and I'm not saying what we have now should be the status quo - I absolutely think players should be able to impact the gameworld in a meaningful fashion - but how do we go about that without resulting in howls of outrage and favoritism from those who didn't succeed (for whatever reason) without somehow codifying the process and thus taking some of the spontaneous life out of it? It's not as simple as "raise the glass ceiling", if it were simple I'm sure it'd have been done.

As an ironic aside, I played a completely mundane character at that time who had achieved the IC equivalent rank of a Captain, who didn't feel completely useless. I mean, sometimes. I more wished I had rolled as an assassin rather than a merchant so I would have useable skills. But I was able to be involved in a lot of crazy stuff, still.

I do agree though. Just raising the ceiling doesn't equal meaningful game world impact. But in some cases it might. I would instead advocate for an expansion of the possible - both vertical, which would be exceedingly rare, and horizontal. Horizontal expansion would be the ability to do lasting things without a huge increase in coded / virtual power, like building a tribe, building/changing a coded structure, starting a clan, the moving and shaking in the game world. And it's these kinds of things more so that are a more realistically achievable way to having lasting impact than just achieving a high rank.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 29, 2018, 08:48:11 PM
I like the idea of upper ranks being a sort of semi-retirement role.

Being a clan leader is tough.  Recruiting, training, disciplining, and entertaining a gaggle of PCs on top of performing regular clan business is a lot of work.  People can get burned out pretty fast.

A lieutenant level position seems perfect for a long-lived character in good clan standing who's tired of the job-like responsibility but still loves the clan and the character. 

Let them play.  Let them augment the de-facto leader that replaces them.  Set clear OOC boundaries for their authority.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: CodeMaster on October 29, 2018, 09:23:59 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 29, 2018, 08:48:11 PM
I like the idea of upper ranks being a sort of semi-retirement role.

Being a clan leader is tough.  Recruiting, training, disciplining, and entertaining a gaggle of PCs on top of performing regular clan business is a lot of work.  People can get burned out pretty fast.

A lieutenant level position seems perfect for a long-lived character in good clan standing who's tired of the job-like responsibility but still loves the clan and the character. 

Let them play.  Let them augment the de-facto leader that replaces them.  Set clear OOC boundaries for their authority.

What a great idea.  I think that'd be perfect for a lot of players.  Put them in charge of a group of virtual sergeants and let them tell stories until they're ready to play again (or truly retire the character).  I'm sure someone can think up an excuse for them losing that rank if they want to return to regular play.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 30, 2018, 07:43:33 AM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 29, 2018, 08:48:11 PM
I like the idea of upper ranks being a sort of semi-retirement role.

Being a clan leader is tough.  Recruiting, training, disciplining, and entertaining a gaggle of PCs on top of performing regular clan business is a lot of work.  People can get burned out pretty fast.

A lieutenant level position seems perfect for a long-lived character in good clan standing who's tired of the job-like responsibility but still loves the clan and the character. 

Let them play.  Let them augment the de-facto leader that replaces them.  Set clear OOC boundaries for their authority.


That 'would' be pretty cool. Hrmmm. But ooc restrictions would need to be there to prevent invalidation of the de facto leader.

I love that idea.


As for creating stuff. Me and another player did create the RF camp. And we did it inspite of staff telling us we must not do it. Did it against restrictions until staff finally began supporting it half a year later. By then, both our characters were dead, but what we created was self perpetuated by characters we brought in into the idea.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 30, 2018, 09:47:22 AM
It never came to fruition, but here's a semi-relevant story (that I feel is no longer possible in Armageddon)

I played Creek. A Tuluki Legionnaire who really thought he was doing good and being fair and merciful. All around good guy. He'd break your arm if you were insistent, but otherwise he'd try to talk to you before calling in the Faithful. Many barely-interesting stories about him, but he existed in a time with a pair of Lirathans, and a slew of Jihaen's that struggled to stick around. Regardless, he got to the rank of Sergeant MOSTLY by attrition, but it allowed his previous Sergeant, Lindrick, to attain the rank of Lieutenant. The player didn't play MUCH at that point, but enjoyed his character and still wanted to muck around, so they gave him the black cloak. This allowed Creek to sit in his Sergeant position for quite a while, only losing it at one point due to a very strong feeling that a Faithful-led patrol into a bahamet was ill-conceived and led to the death of someone he was grooming for his OWN position.

For a while, Creek's sole occupation was to join the Ivory Guard (a thing that wasn't even possible THEN), the intention being that in that position, he would be Sergeant over a small group of pike-wielding virtual soldiers. Nothing to threaten people with, but just an interesting backstory to the character. He had (supposedly) personal recommendations from every PC Templar in the city and the only thing holding him back was that they wanted another Sergeant for the First, because when he left he'd have no authority in the Legions anymore.

I do not think this kind of progression was possible THEN, but I think it is actively discouraged NOW because there is no possibility that staff can/will support that. The clan is closed, the idea would give virtual power to a non-virtual character, etc etc. Did I want the POWER? Hell no. I wanted to stay in the Legions but open up the slot for someone else. I recognized it needed fresh blood, but I didn't want to sacrifice my PC for it. In my mind, he would be sort of a Consigliere to the PC Legion Sergeant(s) and help out if they had a very particular patrol, but otherwise be background and MAYBE tapped if there was a city-based RPT where the Ivory Guard would be called in.

tl;dr - Power isn't always about power, and I feel very ... perturbed that my intention of gameplay is being boiled down into something easy to attack. I don't play anymore, because this ISN'T the kind of game I want to play. I've already admitted that. You don't need to tell me that I "played it wrong" or anything. That is, frankly, very rude.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 30, 2018, 09:53:50 AM
Quote from: Riev on October 30, 2018, 09:47:22 AM
I don't play anymore, because this ISN'T the kind of game I want to play. I've already admitted that. You don't need to tell me that I "played it wrong" or anything.

I don't think you played wrong, Riev. I remember some old threads where we butted heads back in the day, so we didn't always agree, but I think you were a good member of the community, and I'm sure the game is worse off without you. Hopefully one day, you'll see a reason to return. It's always easier to enact change from within. ;)
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 30, 2018, 11:02:11 AM
Quote from: Riev on October 30, 2018, 09:47:22 AM
tl;dr - Power isn't always about power, and I feel very ... perturbed that my intention of gameplay is being boiled down into something easy to attack. I don't play anymore, because this ISN'T the kind of game I want to play. I've already admitted that. You don't need to tell me that I "played it wrong" or anything. That is, frankly, very rude.

We all have opinions, Riev. We're exchanging them here. None of the staff mentioned their point of view here. That might've been read as doctrine. Everyone else? Myself included, is expression their opinion. Expression how they see it benefitting to the game, damaging, inconsequential, or whatever else.  Taking offense to it is silly.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 30, 2018, 12:56:18 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 29, 2018, 05:34:09 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 29, 2018, 04:46:17 PM
Well. I mean. If you're playing this game to win it, you're gonna have a bad time.

Unless by "winning" you mean "adding interest, depth and complexity to the ongoing narrative", in which case, good job!

You have to accept that this isn't a game where you're playing the hero who wins. You're the supporting cast. Yes, even your popular leader who all the players adore. What more do you need? You're creating fun and intrigue for lots of people right where you are. What are you really going to get if you're promoted another rank, beyond OOC bragging rights?

If players are just supporting staff..
And staff are just supporting players..

Nobody does anything.  No change happens.

This was one of the reasons I stopped playing in 2010.

Exactly, and now it's to the point Templars can't even make decisions about soldiers without staff intervention.  Staff are playing all of the real leadership roles.  And also, asking why do people want to get power in game?  Because some of the roles that's literally built in.  You're in a land where people starve and die with ease.  Obtaining power means obtaining security, resources, food, water and keeping your life.  Roles like greedy merchants and nobility - the strive towards power is a BUILT IN motivator.  It's really, really vapid to be like hey... you're gonna connive for power but it's all pretend because you could reach the age of fifty and you'll still be a junior noble lulz.

What's also not fun is that in the current system the staff hold ALL of the truly powerful characters.  So basically you could play a character for years.  Real life YEARS you could contribute your life to this game - for hours and hours that you'll never get back of your real life towards a single character.  And ultimately you could be doing a good job, creating depth, plots etc.  And your character still won't have obtained trust to grow in title.  They will effectively still be beholden to an NPC that could be played by various staff over the time you're keeping one character alive. 

There's no where to go.  This isn't a second virtual life to splash around in like a puddle, it's a story telling game that should have a clear since of reward, depth of story and trust it's players to lead.  I would much rather follow trusted PC leaders than always refer to staff - which change, and usually don't have the depth of knowledge an immersed, consistently playing PC would.

What's more is you're saying people are looking through rose colored glasses in regards to PC leaders that achieved this status like Lieutenant Raul etc.  That's kind of presumptuous because you're assuming all of our experiences were your own which they were not.

You can create depth of story and still want power and to obtain ascension in the game without being under the thumb of the imms.  If you look at my past three characters you will see that I used about 10% of my skills.  I am not here to "win" Armageddon.  But if I make impactful good decisions as a leader over real life months and years I want to go about the natural progression in rank that would make sense for my character instead of just "make-believing" for real life years I'm striving to achieve rank that would be fitting obtain but never will be because there's been an OOC decision to cut players off from that.  I'm here to RP but that doesn't mean I want to RP the same social status for RL years with my efforts amounting to nothing but the same cyclic role and stature while I make believe I'll ever actually gain rank within a leadership role.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 30, 2018, 01:04:28 PM
As a mild aside:

I think we're all in this grey area between a few very key points

This is a game.
This is a shared storytelling adventure.
This is a very intensive roleplaying experience.
The roleplay standard has been set at "low-fantasy" and a very low ceiling for players. No heroes. No dragons.

I think we often forget the first point, because the other three are SO damned attractive. An intensive roleplaying experience with other storytellers trying to weave together something beautiful and tragic. It is also a game, where there should be strategy, sense of achievement, progression, something that passes the time and doesn't feel like a vocation. Arm should be an avocation that we, as players, can CHOOSE to put more effort in, to achieve more things.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Is Friday on October 30, 2018, 02:33:04 PM
It would be cool if when you were promoted beyond the glass ceiling you were allowed to participate in future RPTs or events as that PC on a limited basis. Kind of like gladiators but different. More of a cameo role.

Example:
I play a Byn Sarge until Lieutenant. I play around with the LT role for a bit and then one day decide to "soft store". I can return to this role for HYUGE battle RPTs, training the Sergeant PCs from time to time, promotion RPTs, and other big Allanaki events.

Example 2:
I play a Borsail noble who nobles so hard that they get promoted. I decide to soft store and leave open the option of having staff bring me in for future events. Staff invite me to play my PC giving orders from higher about X or Y plot. Staff later invite me to play my PC attending a huge party RPT or Senate RPT.

I know it might be difficult to balance the "Keep it IC" rules, but if you're playing a leader for a long time and you're trusted by staff to be responsible... well...? Why not let us play this PC again 2-3x a year as a cameo to reflect how fucking cool my PC is, now. That'd be a sweet reward and a positive improvement for the game.

I feel like it would solve issues and motivate people to play those sort of PCs or help those PCs reach great heights.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 30, 2018, 02:52:50 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on October 30, 2018, 02:33:04 PM
It would be cool if when you were promoted beyond the glass ceiling you were allowed to participate in future RPTs or events as that PC on a limited basis. Kind of like gladiators but different. More of a cameo role.

Example:
I play a Byn Sarge until Lieutenant. I play around with the LT role for a bit and then one day decide to "soft store". I can return to this role for HYUGE battle RPTs, training the Sergeant PCs from time to time, promotion RPTs, and other big Allanaki events.

Example 2:
I play a Borsail noble who nobles so hard that they get promoted. I decide to soft store and leave open the option of having staff bring me in for future events. Staff invite me to play my PC giving orders from higher about X or Y plot. Staff later invite me to play my PC attending a huge party RPT or Senate RPT.

I know it might be difficult to balance the "Keep it IC" rules, but if you're playing a leader for a long time and you're trusted by staff to be responsible... well...? Why not let us play this PC again 2-3x a year as a cameo to reflect how fucking cool my PC is, now. That'd be a sweet reward and a positive improvement for the game.

I feel like it would solve issues and motivate people to play those sort of PCs or help those PCs reach great heights.

I feel like if they did this, there'd have to be some sort of OOC rule keeping them from being involved in plots. Aside from plot information you could get on your "main" PC, they'd also be nigh untouchable IC whereas someone playing them regularly might have weaknesses in their schedule that could be exploited. It's hard to fuck over a PC in that type of position anyhow. By making them a secondary character that only shows up for random RPTs, that makes it almost impossible.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 30, 2018, 03:19:48 PM
I feel like y'all are forgetting that there is lateral promotion... extra ranks, extra titles, not to mention the clout that comes from being long-lived and known to be someone who sticks to their role through thick and thin. You're acting like it's "Lt. Rank/Senior noble/Red Robe status or else" but honestly there is a ton of in between that you can reach. Could it be improved? Maybe. Does it exist? Yes.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on October 30, 2018, 03:23:34 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2018, 03:19:48 PM
I feel like y'all are forgetting that there is lateral promotion... extra ranks, extra titles, not to mention the clout that comes from being long-lived and known to be someone who sticks to their role through thick and thin. You're acting like it's "Lt. Rank/Senior noble/Red Robe status or else" but honestly there is a ton of in between that you can reach. Could it be improved? Maybe. Does it exist? Yes.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that no longer be a thing. I would like the path to these lofty levels to be a long one, and come with several of those lateral promotions, ranks, titles, boons, etc before promotion to that higher rank is considered. And then, I'd like it to come with the caveat I expressed earlier, that red robes wouldn't regularly interact with anyone of lower social standing than a noble or templar's aide.

There is no reason we can't have -both- types of promotions available, both lateral and honorary, and vertical.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 30, 2018, 03:31:14 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 30, 2018, 12:56:18 PM
What's also not fun is that in the current system the staff hold ALL of the truly powerful characters.  So basically you could play a character for years.  Real life YEARS you could contribute your life to this game - for hours and hours that you'll never get back of your real life towards a single character.  And ultimately you could be doing a good job, creating depth, plots etc.  And your character still won't have obtained trust to grow in title.  They will effectively still be beholden to an NPC that could be played by various staff over the time you're keeping one character alive. 

It begins to seem to me that the main reason to want to achieve a higher title is to stop being under staff control. You do realize this will never happen, right? That's like a player in a tabletop RPG complaining how come the DM has the right to spawn goblins during an encounter.  A higher titled NPC coming over to your lower titled noble is basically a tool of communication between your character/player and the virtual world/staff.

Even if you do achieve a rank of whatever, there will always be a different NPC to have utter control over you. Has to be.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 30, 2018, 03:35:39 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 30, 2018, 03:31:14 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 30, 2018, 12:56:18 PM
What's also not fun is that in the current system the staff hold ALL of the truly powerful characters.  So basically you could play a character for years.  Real life YEARS you could contribute your life to this game - for hours and hours that you'll never get back of your real life towards a single character.  And ultimately you could be doing a good job, creating depth, plots etc.  And your character still won't have obtained trust to grow in title.  They will effectively still be beholden to an NPC that could be played by various staff over the time you're keeping one character alive. 

It begins to seem to me that the main reason to want to achieve a higher title is to stop being under staff control. You do realize this will never happen, right? That's like a player in a tabletop RPG complaining how come the DM has the right to spawn goblins during an encounter.  A higher titled NPC coming over to your lower titled noble is basically a tool of communication between your character/player and the virtual world/staff.

Even if you do achieve a rank of whatever, there will always be a different NPC to have utter control over you. Has to be.

No if we're sticking to the DnD analogy its like saying that characters that overtime can obtain earth shattering powers are told their characters can no longer level up because the DM doesn't want to have to create stories around them being so powerful.  In DnD characters eventually can practically world bend.

Also, it can "seem to you" however you like but I've stated pretty clearly that I don't like the change made to the original state of the game - where characters could ascend to Liet., Red Robes and senior nobles.  The game has been that way before.  No one is suggesting black robes.  The game has worked that way before and it can work again.  Was it rare people reached these ranks?  Extremely.  But it was possible.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 30, 2018, 03:39:14 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2018, 03:19:48 PM
I feel like y'all are forgetting that there is lateral promotion... extra ranks, extra titles, not to mention the clout that comes from being long-lived and known to be someone who sticks to their role through thick and thin. You're acting like it's "Lt. Rank/Senior noble/Red Robe status or else" but honestly there is a ton of in between that you can reach. Could it be improved? Maybe. Does it exist? Yes.

See, I have a really, really big problem with this.  Is it okay to some extent?  Yes.  It's super OOC though to just treat someone better because they've had their characters a few years.  If you're a Byn sarge I'm going to treat you like a roughneck that means little, I'm not treating you like a Lieutenant because you've been alive a few RL years.  If you're the aide of a Templar that's been around awhile, I'm not treating you like the aide of a Red Robe.  If you're a junior noble, I'm not treating you like a senior until you have the rank to back it up.

And that's how it should be.  Zalanthas, Allanak is a feudal society and rank and title should be everything.  This isn't a democracy.  There should be constant class warfare and rank should be reflective of a PCs achievements.  To act like it shouldn't be is a big reason I feel every long lived PC - be they commoner, merc, or rinther - acts like they're untouchable.  This is an additional problem, not a solution and it's not something staff should be encouraging.

However, be they commoner or noble people should have the opportunity to get ranks, or even be demoted and disgraced - based on their achievements.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Derain on October 30, 2018, 03:47:16 PM
Everything being posted by someone in this thread feels like someone feeling entitled and crying about things that aren't going their way.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 30, 2018, 03:47:38 PM
I completely agree with not treating characters differently just because they've been non-virtual for a while (though it will absolutely happen whether or not it should, despite all attempts to discourage that behavior). However, I was talking more of your character being successful in their current role for a long time, i.e. a Sergeant that's been leading for 5 IG years, a Templar that's been Templaring for several RL years.

If they make mistakes, they should absolutely suffer for them, but they still garner respect for having been successful/active in their position. As you say Zalanthas has constant class warfare and struggle and someone who has survived that for some time does merit respect for it.

You aren't going to have a fresh-promoted Sergeant show up and be on the same level as a grizzled veteran Sergeant of 8 years in leadership. Nor should you. Yes, the fresh-promoted Sergeant should be accorded the basic respect for their rank, but anything beyond that they have to earn.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Dar on October 30, 2018, 03:53:49 PM
Now. I dont know if it is being designed to be so, but here's a question. What if you do, Bebop? What if you 'do' treat them differently.

Not just due to hours played. But due to honors achieved. In Feudal society, a king couldnt proclaim someone a baron, unless there was a barony to grant them. What happened instead, were honorific with certain responsibilities. Master of Wine. Master of Chambers. Master of Ceremonies. The honor of removal of the second shoe during the King's undress. The honor of approaching the King without bowing. And so on.

Those honorifics did not come with significant changes in one's abilities. There were 'some' abilities. Some lordling who designed who sat where during feasts, could seat friends closer to the king and his enemies further away. Or be bribed to situate them in some vicinity to make whatever proclamations possible and impossible.

Having said that, they did carry weight. That is why sometimes it was so important to mention every title. Something that tended to end up in a long monologue, where everyone were ready to cut their own ears off. But it did not detract from the people's importance, because these honorifics were supposedly potentially earned through some whatever significant deeds.


Because otherwise. If none of these things mattered and you only cared whether or not someone is a baron, or not. Then suddenly, the only title worthy of achievement was barony, and if that act broke the equilibrium and dynamic of the game, then a lot of people want to achieve something at the price of many other's enjoyment of the game, or potentials of clunky storytelling.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Delirium on October 30, 2018, 03:57:47 PM
Also, Armageddon isn't a D&D game. It is more like a LARP.

You have to consider the fun of 100's of characters, not the 5 around your kitchen table.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Bebop on October 30, 2018, 04:01:21 PM
I'll reply more later, but I just want to point out I'm not saying anything much different than Riev and Mansa, the only difference is I am still playing after a 5 year hiatus.  I'm giving opinions as someone who has come back to a lot of changes.  I can see why the left and the game is less of a place for the veterans we're losing and have lost because those two, amongst others, were good players that brought a lot to the game.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Riev on October 31, 2018, 09:54:28 AM
Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2018, 03:57:47 PM
Also, Armageddon isn't a D&D game. It is more like a LARP.

You have to consider the fun of 100's of characters, not the 5 around your kitchen table.

This is remarkably accurate for the state of the game, and its intention. It is also, as I've stated before, why I cannot play anymore. I want it to be more like a D&D game, but its a long-form LARP beholden to a dozen Game Masters who all need to communicate every thing you do that could change the landscape.

Is it bad? No. It works for those of you still playing.

As a Veteran, I remember where there have been times that WITH STAFF TRUST/KARMA, people could attain these higher levels of power to show that it CAN happen in Zalanthas. People CAN become Red Robes. You CAN become a Lieutenant. You CAN do these things often only represented by the Virtual World.

I think the big issue at hand is that, ICly there are a ton of things that are 'possible', but Staff get to decide how possible it is FOR YOU. A lot of timelines require up to a real life year of consistent play before you are taken seriously. This is not new. I remember a friend accomplishing a lot in three months of play, but was told by staff that "You have only been around a few months. You need to dedicate more time before <x> can be considered." So, don't think the time-sink is new. Its just being enforced more, now, with laid out instructions. I still hate it.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Cind on November 02, 2018, 02:39:45 AM
Introduce commoner and aide ranks.

How about this: to give commoners something to strive for, citizens of the city (and Luir's perhaps?) should be able to optionally get a token or a tattoo that signifies their rank. Maybe there's three, or five, with the last rank being incredibly hard to achieve. You hardly ever see a pc with the highest rank, which basically makes them a shoe-in for employment, but you've seen a couple with the second-highest rank in the last year. Most people would be at the bottom one, and persons who have completed one task of merit to the city or a House (including merchant Houses) would usually be awarded the second-lowest rank, and the tiny dot tattoo on their hand or wrist that signifies this (on second thought, tokens could be stolen.) You couldn't get to the middle rank by helping a merchant House unless you were employed a long time; thus, loyal and long-employed members of the merchant houses would be known to be second or middle rank.

To get the upper two ranks you'd really have to be useful and of merit to the city itself.

Aide ranks: Give aides something to strive for other than an inevitable death by assassin. This would be a badge of their trustworthiness and excellence in their position, in addition to whatever title they actually hold in their noble House. Perhaps the highest rank could only be earned by either a great teacher of the Atrium who have been around for years or an aide who made her former noble senior rank; something concrete and with few options in order to attain, is what I think would fit the highest aide rank.

Just saying... part of what I mean by these is that adding some defined barriers for people to overcome to get rank might be a good idea.

And no, these ranks wouldn't matter a wit to the people that matter, but nobles would love having an aide with rank, and merchant houses would consider your commoner dots during an interview. I think anyone but the Byn would ask, and its something new to rp about, add to stories, and lament as proven-loyal commoners die needlessly, and laugh as criminals who have lost rank die.

I was actually disappointed when I read that Tuluk has a caste system and then got in-game and played there, because their caste system -is exactly the same as Allanak's.- They just have these elaborate star tattoos to mark them.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Brokkr on November 02, 2018, 11:44:17 AM
The Noble houses currently open have aides that roughly correspond to:

Aide
Senior Aide
Advisor

Where the first two are to a particular noble, and the last one more to the House.  The ranks are obtainable, with time, effort and noble support.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: najdorf on November 02, 2018, 01:46:31 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 31, 2018, 09:54:28 AM
Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2018, 03:57:47 PM
Also, Armageddon isn't a D&D game. It is more like a LARP.

You have to consider the fun of 100's of characters, not the 5 around your kitchen table.

This is remarkably accurate for the state of the game, and its intention. It is also, as I've stated before, why I cannot play anymore. I want it to be more like a D&D game, but its a long-form LARP beholden to a dozen Game Masters who all need to communicate every thing you do that could change the landscape.

Is it bad? No. It works for those of you still playing.

As a Veteran, I remember where there have been times that WITH STAFF TRUST/KARMA, people could attain these higher levels of power to show that it CAN happen in Zalanthas. People CAN become Red Robes. You CAN become a Lieutenant. You CAN do these things often only represented by the Virtual World.

I think the big issue at hand is that, ICly there are a ton of things that are 'possible', but Staff get to decide how possible it is FOR YOU. A lot of timelines require up to a real life year of consistent play before you are taken seriously. This is not new. I remember a friend accomplishing a lot in three months of play, but was told by staff that "You have only been around a few months. You need to dedicate more time before <x> can be considered." So, don't think the time-sink is new. Its just being enforced more, now, with laid out instructions. I still hate it.

This describes most of my feelings about the game. Unfortunately, being an off-peak player makes things worse. The game auto forces you to play isolated roles. For a long time, I happily played less social roles that limited my interaction with the staff. The moment I broke my code, I was reminded the painful process of waiting for staff approval, and many days of unresolved requests, and ignorance (perhaps innocent) from the staff (with almost 0 interaction with the character) for a 10+ days played character. However, all of this is in the game's rules. Most of the role requirements by staff clearly state the need to be actively playing on peak.

Hopefully, the game will one day come to a point where staff will have to hand the power to a player-driven community and step aside, with a well thought democratic protocol to ensure the main theme and spirit of Zalanthas is preserved.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Heade on November 02, 2018, 02:07:06 PM
Quote from: najdorf on November 02, 2018, 01:46:31 PM
Hopefully, the game will one day come to a point where staff will have to hand the power to a player-driven community and step aside, with a well thought democratic protocol to ensure the main theme and spirit of Zalanthas is preserved.

I think this is both a little unfair to staff, and a bit overdramatic.

First, they will never have to hand over power. This is a privately funded game that doesn't even take donations from players. There is literally nothing players could do to force their hand in some way.

Second, this is a collaberative effort, and IS player-driven. As far as I know, all people on staff are players. It should be remembered that staff are volunteers and choose how to spend their time on projects. And while I'm sure there are plenty of times I've wished something would be done about X, and that didn't align with anyone on staff's personal goals for what to do with their time, I think the current staff is the most welcoming of player input and criticism of any staff in the history of armageddon.

And last, democracy doesn't always end up with the best results. Besides being inefficient and slow, sometimes the masses think they know what they'd like, till they get it, and they don't. Sometimes it's better to be ruled by a benevolent dictator. Though, I don't think that's the case, here. I think there is often a more democratic process that occurs between staff behind the scenes, and that process is probably responsible for a good deal of the delays that we as players have to deal with in having our requests resolved.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Akaramu on November 04, 2018, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: Cind on November 02, 2018, 02:39:45 AM
Introduce commoner and aide ranks.

How about this: to give commoners something to strive for, citizens of the city (and Luir's perhaps?) should be able to optionally get a token or a tattoo that signifies their rank. Maybe there's three, or five, with the last rank being incredibly hard to achieve.

Wasn't this basically a Tuluk thing?  ???

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Tuannon on November 05, 2018, 01:18:33 AM
The issue with high ranks for commoners is they often forget their place or the players don't know how to maintain networks of plots that aren't related to doing everything in your power to kill x, y or z.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Cind on November 05, 2018, 02:28:29 AM
Quote from: Akaramu on November 04, 2018, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: Cind on November 02, 2018, 02:39:45 AM
Introduce commoner and aide ranks.

How about this: to give commoners something to strive for, citizens of the city (and Luir's perhaps?) should be able to optionally get a token or a tattoo that signifies their rank. Maybe there's three, or five, with the last rank being incredibly hard to achieve.

Wasn't this basically a Tuluk thing?  ???

Sorry---- I thought that tokens could have maybe worked, but you could steal them.

Or not--- you could have it so that most people are the bottom commoner tier, requiring no dots. And that people who do get rank, are recorded, much like the people who joined the Levies were recorded, with a tattoo and a couple of lines in a scribe's records.

I distinctly remember being inspected by a Lirathan a few weeks after joining the Levies, and asking her, quite literally but you know, subtly and politely, if I were being inspected, and I was a ruk unmanifested who didn't know it, and she said, yep, you're the first one we're checking out, and I'm like, okay cool.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Cind on November 05, 2018, 02:30:09 AM
Could you imagine how ironic and tooth-gnashing this would be if implemented by Tektolnes himself, or a black robe? People would in their minds feel like a kicked dog for becoming like the Tulukis, but wouldn't have the slightest say in the matter.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Derain on December 11, 2018, 07:42:54 AM
I'm closer and closer to leaving the game and it's mostly the meta-bullshit and hand holding for certain characters I keep seeing. Also how lame it's gotten allowing clear abuse of the in game boards and the posts being left and others getting deleted because they "violate" the in game board rules. There is other things that have pissed me off as well but I can't go into them because they are too IC and recent but man.. it makes it hard to keep loving this game.

Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Medena on December 11, 2018, 07:14:03 PM
Quote from: Derain on December 11, 2018, 07:42:54 AM
I'm closer and closer to leaving the game and it's mostly the meta-bullshit and hand holding for certain characters I keep seeing. Also how lame it's gotten allowing clear abuse of the in game boards and the posts being left and others getting deleted because they "violate" the in game board rules. There is other things that have pissed me off as well but I can't go into them because they are too IC and recent but man.. it makes it hard to keep loving this game.

Doctor Medena's prescription for what ails you:  take a break from the game.  If you're not having fun then don't do it.  Chances are that when you come back you'll be loving the game again.  I know I am and I think that numerous other vets who have returned in the last few months are enjoying it too.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: boog on December 11, 2018, 10:46:47 PM
Maybe another staff/player meeting where these issues could be addressed in an open exchange would prove useful.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Potaje on December 12, 2018, 12:48:16 AM
Quote from: boog on December 11, 2018, 10:46:47 PM
Maybe another staff/player meeting where these issues could be addressed in an open exchange would prove useful.

+1
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Krath on December 12, 2018, 01:03:56 AM
Quote from: Potaje on December 12, 2018, 12:48:16 AM
Quote from: boog on December 11, 2018, 10:46:47 PM
Maybe another staff/player meeting where these issues could be addressed in an open exchange would prove useful.

+1

+2
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Vex on December 12, 2018, 04:04:59 AM
Quote from: Derain on December 11, 2018, 07:42:54 AM
I'm closer and closer to leaving the game and it's mostly the meta-bullshit and hand holding for certain characters I keep seeing. Also how lame it's gotten allowing clear abuse of the in game boards and the posts being left and others getting deleted because they "violate" the in game board rules. There is other things that have pissed me off as well but I can't go into them because they are too IC and recent but man.. it makes it hard to keep loving this game.

So, get away from it, all of it.

Stalker and Scout are both ideally suited, to leaving Allanak/Luirs behind. Once you're free and away, it is much easier to enjoy the game without meta interferences. We have less people doing so, but, the interactions tend to be more enjoyable and mutually appreciated, not to mention respectful, on the player to player level.

Encounters are sometimes friendly, but usually tense and full of suspicions, just as it should be. It has less people walking up and interrogating each other for life stories, so as to become BFFs right away, and people tend towards cool tempers, rather than knee jerky murder. I assume, it's because there aren't a lot of us out there to interact with, so each loss, means less chance of future interactions.

Not a perfect solution, but, if you're tired and frustrated with the state of things, but don't want to give up the game you enjoy, consider hermit life. It helps if you can easily keep up a mental story, for your pc, because there aren't any volleyballs to buddy up with, between chance encounters.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Derain on December 12, 2018, 05:53:13 AM
Good advice Vex thanks.
Title: Re: Estranged Veterans' Perspective
Post by: Synthesis on December 12, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
Miscreant is really good for avoiding people, too.  You can be as much of a ghost as you'd like to be.