Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bebop on October 01, 2018, 01:43:56 PM

Title: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 01, 2018, 01:43:56 PM
So this has been on my mind for awhile.  Iíve been back to the game now after four months and there is no doubt about it.  Numbers have dropped and theyíve dropped drastically.  I canít and wonít speculate as to why thatís happened over the past five years Iíve been gone.  I know around the time I left I certainly had my reasons which are irrelevant now.  But we are a community, and I think we need to calibrate sometimes.

Ultimately, Iíve been considering player retention in general and I have a lot of ideas on that - bringing old players back, fostering new ones and keeping current players.  However, as I was considering all of that one note in particular held a lot of weight and I realized it could be a topic of itís own.  I believe we need to talk about PK.  Iím going to start by discussing why I think this is a problem, in particular regarding the current state of the game as it stands.

The sandbox has clearly shrunk.  As of Friday at one point during peak hours there were 13 players on.  Now, as I said.  If we want to talk player numbers letís keep that to a different thread but I do feel like the frivolous amount of PK occuring in the game is contributing to the dwindling numbers.  Honestly, Iím at a point where Iím struggling even not to drop off again.  If this pattern continues the game will stagnate further and ultimately die off.  Not to panic, there are still plenty of peak times where the game is getting up to the high forties.  However, back five years ago mid to high sixties were standard and I would argue went on a bit longer.  There are several factors that could be adding to this but letís talk about PK in particular.

The Sandbox

PK doesnít just have IC effects it has OOC effects as well.  It can create player burn out and not just for the player of the PKíd player but also for other players that might have invested in the character PKíd emotionally and or financially.   This shrinks the sandbox either temporarily or permanently, depending on if the player rolls another character.  It can also potentially shrink the sandbox in the area that you are playing if someone goes elsewhere because PK is occurring frivolously and with too much frequency.

I feel like this is also where Tuluk being closed creates an issue.  There were many times I felt one city or the other had RP going on that I wasnít interest in or one side of the world was too PK happy.  I would then go to the other side of the world.  There is still Luirís but the Outposts do not offer much playability for support based or city based characters.

As players get more cavalier on PK even over the past few months I am watching it effect the numbers - shrinking that sandbox.  I have not been the victim of PK anytime recently but I have observed the level of PK going on and some of the reasons for which it occurs and I think itís something to take a look at.

Story Incubation and RP quality in a Shrinking Sandbox

When story ties get cut as the peak or before they really get the chance to solidify while the sandbox continues to shrink due to PK the quality of RP becomes watered down and suffers.  So youíre playing in a smaller box, with the same few players that have managed to survive and youíre trying to scrounge for RP.  This makes the RP itself convoluted and increasingly petty as players grasp for literally anything to start interest between the limited players now left that are established to interact with. 

It's also worth noting that some of those characters that stick around, are going to have made it by not sticking their neck out for PK.  Meaning, what's left in the sandbox might not be very lively RP wise.  I'm not saying that's the case.  I'm saying it's something to consider when on average you've got 13 - 25 people or less on during the one or two hours we consider peak.

I donít know about you guys but I have plenty of opportunities for petty interactions IRL.  I come to this game for story, broad, sweeping and beautiful plots and a sort of escapist virtual reality experience.  Thatís what I would like to see instead of an endless exchange of PKills for the most minor reasons possible.

Iím not saying PK doesnít have itís place.  Iím saying sometimes the game needs to be able to breath and so that backdrop can get painted for a story that will be engaging and immersive.  I'm also saying that we need consider what PKs place in the game is, and how it's currently effecting our numbers and quality of plot.  Please read till the end and hear me out.

Coded Issues

One thing I think we have to ask ourselves is have we made PK too easy?  With the new guilds a lot of people now have stealth and murder based skills that allow them to evade the crimcode day or night.  Often times, there are no soldiers stationed in any tavern in Allanak at night.  Not even the ones where nobles hang out.  There are almost no guarded zones in the city.  With the right skills you can easily kill someone in the city without even standing in the same square and by using the hide skill can you scoot away with ease.  Codedly, things have changed.  Assassin used to be a hard one to level up - and for good reason.  Likewise, those sneaky skills can be incredibly powerful.  Stealth skills can take down even magickers or powerful warriors with ease.  Something to consider.  In many ways, sneak and hide is less risky and more powerful than magickal stealth abilities.  That seems a bit wrong.  I don't know how many times I've been in a closed off tiny room with a sneaky who instantly Batman disappears.

Are there some tweaks that need to be made either with the crim code or with character guilds?  Something again to consider.  I for one think at least a couple of taverns should be secure at night.  The taverns in particular are where plots come together.  But if you think something as simple as tavern sitting and waiting for players to show could make you an easy target for some random murderer why do it? 

I donít mind the streets at night being dangerous but sitting in a tavern frequented by nobles, or the Redís likely shouldnít be one of those places.  Soldiers should be stationed there, or at least chilling in their off hours.  It shouldnít be super easy to attack someone and scoot out in places like those without the crim code providing some real risk to those that want to try.

Alternative to PK

If you want to you can be that person just looking for any perceived slight to PK but I would strongly urge against it.  The reality, is we are playing a game.  We have a limited amount of players to pool from.  The virtual world we play in doesnít have an unlimited amount of PCs.  When youíre considering ending a PC I would strongly consider alternative methods.  Even if it frustrates you, even if it puts your character at risk.  Why?  Because the end goal is to create a fun game with deep plots that engulf you and suck you in.  Thatís less likely to happen if the restart button keeps getting pressed.  I'm not saying there isn't a time and place to kill a person, there certainly is.  But if you find yourself pulling those reasons from thin air or PKing more than one person a week instead of when you're actually at risk?  Maybe you might want to stop and consider the effects you're having on the game.

There are so many creative alternatives to PK.  Having someone roughed up.  Have someone stolen from.  Publicly humiliate them.  Torture.  Slavery.  Rivaling.  Arguing.  Rumor mongering.  If you can think of a reason to kill someone IG you can just as creatively think of a reason not to kill them.  Show some creativity and I promise you it will foster a story that keeps people coming back along but this takes collective effort from players, and a staff willing to step in when PK is getting too frequent for flimsy reasons.  I donít want the staff to be able to overly police PK but I do think they should be highly aware of it and have the ability to step in when it gets to be too much.

Alternative to Tulukís Closer - An Antagonist and PVE

I believe that part of the reason for the state of things is that people are too congested and there is no escape.  I for one like to play city based characters but Luirs is not really a great place for city based characters and after PK there is no other city-state to escape too.  This can expedite burn out and keep old rivalries alive from character to character.  People are too squished in without an alternative city state to catch fresh air.  Perhaps the answer to this is to create more PVE situations but that requires more work from staff and honestly, I would be very sad for Arm to take on a more PVE instead of PVP environment.

We need our antagonist back so that petty feuds (and many of them are petty) arenít whatís driving the game and PK.

If I was going to talk about player retention I would point out that Tuluk was a long time fixture to our game that some people played exclusively in.  A good game would not just suddenly cut out that option and isolate those players from our culture.  But player retention is a different thread I don't have time or energy to start.

What is too much PK?

There is no real answer to that.  But letís think about the fact that right now at peak times weíre seeing about 35 people on during a couple of peak hours.  If even 2 PKs are occurring a week?  Thatís 8 a month.  That means a FOURTH of the regular amount of players weíre seeing are resetting every RL month.  And definitely more than that amount of PK is happening right now.  When we had double the players on on a regular basis that would have been an eighth.  Not nearly as bad.  Now, this frequency of PK is a huge chunk of the base that could either fall off, get burnt out or just have to reset. 

I believe we should be trying to drag people collectively into a story and build it.  PK is a means to an end, it shouldn't be the end all be all.  At least that's what I came up believing in this game.  It is not a hack and slash with a plot line.  This is an RP game with permadeath to add to the story and grit.  Not vice versa.

I think we need to face the reality that player numbers ARE slow and down and with that PK should be slowed.  Perhaps weíll even see an uptick if plots are allowed to actually seed and grow.

Summary

In short I am imploring you all as a community to consider finding alternatives to PK for the good of the game WHEN you can.  I am NOT saying there is no place for PK.  Iím saying I want to see PK be better roleplayed, less frequent and for more solid reasons due to playability and player retention.

There is no point in being the king of the hill if that hill is a teeny tiny sandbox lump.  I feel the game desperately needs to consider the code and how it has been far too relaxed in order to allow PK without any crim code repercussions.  I also think collectively, as a community we need to strive to create a strong tapestry that will ensnare players with a story and the depth of our interactions.

I donít know all of you or what your place is in this story we all enjoy but I hope this will seed something in the mind of players and staff or start a dialogue at the very least.  I do believe this is a valid concern giving the state and size of this game.

My Final Thoughts (from a post later in this thread)

Quote
It may be an OOC consideration, but the reality is there is an OOC element to this game because it is a virtual world.

The OOC consideration is why we have karma for powerful roles, and why people with total PK privileges like Templars are vetted before they get the role and continually followed up on.  It's the same reason it's in poor taste to attack someone who is obviously new.  Sometimes we find IG reasons to not do something because of OOC reasons to make the game better.  These types of standards aren't relegated to PC leaders.  We all have a responsibility to realize we are part of a community and a game.  If we did not have OOC considerations this is not a game you would want to play, nor would we have made it this far.  And this is what I'm trying to point out.

We are drawing from a limited pool of people.  Maybe getting PK'd doesn't dissuade you.  But it could dissuade the person you PK and the people around them.  Granted, that's not your responsibility.  I'm using your in general to whoever is reading this.  But if you don't feel like you have at least a smidgen of obligation to make the game playable and to lend yourself to plots that are fun?  We have a problem.

We're all going to have different opinions.  Ultimately, I'm addressing the player base collectively here.  You have an IC obligation to play your character, but you also have an OOC obligation to try to make the game interesting, fun and enjoyable IF you want it to stick around.

This sort of insular idea, that you just have to focus on yourself, your characters and your preferences isn't going to work.  The reality is the game is dwindling and I know on my part, and clearly on the parts of others here, a big part of the deterrent is because it's a struggle to get a good, deep story going.  I'm not stating this as a knee jerk reaction, I'm stating it as someone who has played for a decade off and on and am seeing a clear devolution and a player base that's drying up.

So either we can have a real conversation on how to make the game better, or we can hug PK for any reason we can pull out of the air tight and cling to an insular mindset.  But if there's no one else to play with and players can't be retained you can have all of the opinions you want --- but you won't have anyone left to play with.

I'm not trying to speak out of personal preference, (although obviously I'm going to have my own bias) I'm saying - hey, do we want Arm to stick around and what do we want it to look like?  In it's current state I think codedly it's tilted towards PK instead of plot for several reasons I listed here and that's what I want the PB to consider.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 01, 2018, 02:31:04 PM
I've seen lots of graphs for peak player count and unique logins over the months/years, and indeed we've clearly lost about 1/3rd of the playerbase in the last 5 years or so. 

Has anyone (staff) done a chart for new accounts created?  It might be useful to know if the problem is player retention or new player attraction.

I can't really speak much about the state of the game currently, but I've never been driven off because I got PK'ed.  If anything, my shortest character turn-arounds were after PK deaths. 

That said, I'm an old fogy and perhaps the upcoming generation (and this game has been around long enough that we could be suffering generational taste trends) is more put off by it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 01, 2018, 02:34:08 PM
PKing is a lot like sex, if there's not a proper escalation everyone is going to be dissatisfied. Well, actually, a lot of the time, some dude with a macho complex leaves the interaction satisfied but that's a whole other subject.

EDIT: But I don't know about staff heavily policing or even lightly policing who kills who. I've played another MUD where a certain staffer blew ten tons of smoke up my ass any time I killed anyone and it wasn't even permadeath in most cases. THAT is an excellent way to drive players away. Do not recommend.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 01, 2018, 02:42:15 PM
Honestly if killing players makes you hard I've got a recommendation. Knock them down to mortal wounds, get them bandaged up, tell them to get the fuck off your block, and throw them out the city gates. Power move. You control their death AND their life. Use bludgeoning weapons. Strip them naked and throw them into a tavern. Steal all their shit, sell all their shit, then pay elves to steal all their shit before they even notice. Tell them it was Jimmy Crystal and the Suggins gang and shoot your name with crossbow bolts into the wall of his apartment after seducing his exclusive mate.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 01, 2018, 02:45:35 PM
Also regarding the crimcode: You only need to slip up for half a second to get completely and utterly fucked by the crimcode. It's beefier than you know.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 01, 2018, 02:58:37 PM
Blowguns and throwing knives just need to trigger crime code, because the alternative allows too much cheesing of the code.

I don't think player numbers are low because of PKs, though I do prefer it when there is buildup and solid rationale.

Sometimes you just gotta murder a fool. Blood lubricates the gears of politics and plots.

Yes, sometimes it ends stories prematurely, but other stories develop from that destruction.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: deskoft on October 01, 2018, 03:16:56 PM
Not to detract from the conversation which I think is very valuable, but what are these charts that represent our loss of players? We seem to be suck in the 190-230 unique login span for the past 5 years, really. I disagree our playerbase is in a terrible shrink: off-peak has always been the same and I think peak is still the same, sans some minor changes. That said, I do think we have things to improve as a community and maybe talking about PK will help it.

The above is just my opinion, obviously, and in a community there will always be several parties thinking differently!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 01, 2018, 03:20:35 PM
You are too new to know the days of 70-80 player peaks, deskoft.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: deskoft on October 01, 2018, 03:26:29 PM
You are too new to know the days of 70-80 player peaks, deskoft.

I might be. I recall big peaks in 2014. But we still peak like that sometimes, don't we?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: daughterofauset on October 01, 2018, 03:27:44 PM
I would personally like to see less minion wars where sponsored characters endlessly put down the minions of other sponsored characters to /inconvenience/ the other sponsored character. Nothing is more demoralizing in a death than knowing you were the throwaway used to piss off some guy that mattered. That is RL days or weeks or occasionally even months of your life in playtime out the window sheerly because you work for a guy. Numerous times in the decade or so that I have played, I have been pked, and the majority of them have been collateral damage to piss someone else off, which is genuinely upsetting. If your feud with Amos Sponsored role is so bad that someone needs to die, go after him, not his errand boys. If it's not, then why are you picking people off who often have 100+ hours of their actual lives invested in what they are doing?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 01, 2018, 03:34:45 PM
Player numbers are more spread out now, and "peak time" has shifted to a few hours later than it used to be.

Numbers are lower than in the past, but seem to be in a holding pattern & normal flux rather than a steep decline.

Something to come to terms with is this: your story does not trump other peoples' stories. Harsh, maybe, but true.

Sometimes you kill them, sometimes they kill you. Sometimes your story ends before you wanted it to.

(ugh, I didn't mean to get all poetic there)

This isn't to say I'm all about random, indiscriminate PK, especially by those in power positions. It's so much more rewarding to have a long-term conflict develop because it allows for far more intricacy and give and take, but sometimes, the game really benefits from bloodshed and I don't think we should shy away from it. Just keep it grounded in solid rationale and approach the situation with the goal of telling a story, not the goal of having your PC "win" the game.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 01, 2018, 03:43:26 PM
snip

Everybody wants to be a minion until it's time to die like a minion. There's trade-offs to working for powerful people.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 01, 2018, 03:47:03 PM
I would personally like to see less minion wars where sponsored characters endlessly put down the minions of other sponsored characters to /inconvenience/ the other sponsored character. Nothing is more demoralizing in a death than knowing you were the throwaway used to piss off some guy that mattered. That is RL days or weeks or occasionally even months of your life in playtime out the window sheerly because you work for a guy. Numerous times in the decade or so that I have played, I have been pked, and the majority of them have been collateral damage to piss someone else off, which is genuinely upsetting. If your feud with Amos Sponsored role is so bad that someone needs to die, go after him, not his errand boys. If it's not, then why are you picking people off who often have 100+ hours of their actual lives invested in what they are doing?

Ah, this is another thing I forgot to mention in my original post.

The world needs a place for support characters that are not combat based.  They need to be allowed to do more than just serve as a pin-cushion, threat, warning etc.  This is another trend I'm seeing is that support based characters are constantly just being used as collateral damage.  Is there a place for that?  Yes.  But support characters also have their place in the world and add value to the plot and story.  It takes a long time to set up a support role character and they bring a LOT of dimension to the game and help on both an IC and OOC level - often times without use of IC skills or ever lifting a weapon.  But these players shouldn't walk around with a coded target on their back.

The code right now is not supportive of support based characters.  This is where I think again, the crim code needs to be addressed or soldiers need to be stationed in watering holes.  Taverns should not be a place where someone can walk in, murder a character that could be anyone from noble, aide to artisan crafter and walk out without anyone blinking an eye or the crim code being alerted.

Ultimately, my discussion here is about how we can better the plot and story and the ways that PK are being looked at in the culture right now that are dampening the plot and also to use the above word demoralizing on an OOC level. 

I think, as Delirium put it, there is an OOC level amount of cheese codedly (let's take a look at that) but also I think some of that is IC (let's look at that too).  Yes, there is a time and place you do have to stop a threat that is imminent or you need to make a reason or whatever reason you happen to have IG.  But again, if you are the result of 1 - 3 character deaths on a RL weekly basis, maybe there starts to be a problem when there's only 25 people logging on on average and 30ish on peak times.  Maybe it's something worth looking at.

This is a playability issue.  This is a game.  There should be a sense of reward through playing and then even in death.  Finding frivolous reasons to pursue PK creates that feeling of burnout that I'm speaking of.  We need to focus on the story and with a lower playerbase right now I think people that PK as a rule and not an exception need to be held accountable by staff.  If it's found to be IC and well thought out - cool.   If it starts going into the range of well, I kill people for every tiny perceived infraction to my character... maybe that's something we think about addressing.

I have been PK'd since I've been back to the game.  I was cool with it.  It was RP'd well and it had it's place.  What I'm observing is collectively/in general right now I fear is actually harmful to the depth of the plot being able to develop.

It's having a lot of repercussion both IC and OOC and that's why I would really like it to be taken a look at.  I would like for us all to commit to better RP and seriously considering routes and reasons for when and when not to PK.  Let's remind each other it's fun to find routes that aren't PK.  I would also like staff to take a look at the code, and make a commitment to making sure certain roles are adding to the game not just making a growing PK list.

This isn't the first time I've seen an issue like this arise, however with how small the player base is right now I feel the need to emphasize that every player death is going to have serious repercussion both IC and OOC and when it happens with frequency it may have a tendency to burn the game out.  Not just because of PK but because the effect it could have on the plot.  Maybe sometimes that's positive.  Maybe sometimes it completely dilutes the plot. 

What are the repercussions when now you can't find that merchant you needed to talk to, or someone isn't playing because they don't feel safe going into a tavern to get interaction?  What are the repercussions when a good character that was starting things in game dies because someone found a frivolous reason for them to get PKd then another character gets put into the role that isn't around or good as it but stays in it forever because they played safely and didn't warrant a PK.  I would argue if someone is getting a rise out of you?  Maybe that's enough reason to consider keeping them around longer - because that means they're doing SOMETHING to get a plot going.

This is kind of just a personal PSA and friendly reminder - hey guys, sometimes letting a story incubate leaves a better, more enjoyable game for us to all play.  PK sure, but maybe let's work on building a good story to see numbers get back up.

Deskoft - Numbers have dropped significantly.  We use to reach 50 - 90 players at peak hours on a daily basis many a' year ago when I was playing.  I don't know what people are currently saying but I haven't been here five years to see them dwindle.  It's a very stark contrast to me to come back from seeing peak numbers in the 60s to seeing 13 people on on a Friday night.

Also in so many words, this is pretty much what I am trying to say.  From Delirium -

Quote
It's so much more rewarding to have a long-term conflict develop because it allows for far more intricacy and give and take

And I do agree the world can benefit from bloodshed, but I still think codedly and RP wise this is something we need to take a look at.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: daughterofauset on October 01, 2018, 04:01:54 PM
snip

Everybody wants to be a minion until it's time to die like a minion. There's trade-offs to working for powerful people.

This is actually why you have various sponsored roles roping people who know better and don't want an part of it into being their unwilling pincushions because it is nearly impossible to find a suitable reason to tell x or y noble who can easily have your character killed to go piss up a rope. Should they be killed by the noble.for not playing ball or by the assassin because they did? And where is the third option?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: bcw81 on October 01, 2018, 04:15:06 PM
snip

Everybody wants to be a minion until it's time to die like a minion. There's trade-offs to working for powerful people.

This is actually why you have various sponsored roles roping people who know better and don't want an part of it into being their unwilling pincushions because it is nearly impossible to find a suitable reason to tell x or y noble who can easily have your character killed to go piss up a rope. Should they be killed by the noble.for not playing ball or by the assassin because they did? And where is the third option?

This is Armageddon, not 'I get to have a life and do things as a free citizen of America'. You can tell a noble 'Yeah sure, I'll work for you' and then immediately flee north. You can tell a noble 'Yeah sure I'll work for you' and then go immediately make friends with every other aide and noble out there so they don't want to murder you. You can tell  a noble 'Yeah sure, I'll work for you' and then proceed to stab that noble upside the face.

You can also proceed to tell the noble "Nah fam, I am kind'da socially inept you'd be much better off hiring an elf because I'm as dumb as they come, not to mention I'm a mutant, I mean, look at this gross thing growing on the back of my weenus." and just not take the job.

This game is about groveling under power. If you're holding onto your pride like a kangaroo holds onto it's young, you're going to piss someone off.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 01, 2018, 04:23:10 PM

This is Armageddon, not 'I get to have a life and do things as a free citizen of America'. You can tell a noble 'Yeah sure, I'll work for you' and then immediately flee north. You can tell a noble 'Yeah sure I'll work for you' and then go immediately make friends with every other aide and noble out there so they don't want to murder you. You can tell  a noble 'Yeah sure, I'll work for you' and then proceed to stab that noble upside the face.

You can also proceed to tell the noble "Nah fam, I am kind'da socially inept you'd be much better off hiring an elf because I'm as dumb as they come, not to mention I'm a mutant, I mean, look at this gross thing growing on the back of my weenus." and just not take the job.

This game is about groveling under power. If you're holding onto your pride like a kangaroo holds onto it's young, you're going to piss someone off.

This.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: daughterofauset on October 01, 2018, 04:37:10 PM

I don't know where the simple notion that it is terribly demoralizing to be made a pincushion for someone else's conflict turned into something worthy of the level of hyperbole and sarcasm you are tossing at me, bcw. What did I ever do to you?

Quote from: bcw81
This is Armageddon, not 'I get to have a life and do things as a free citizen of America'.

I do enjoy the notion that this is somehow about being a free american citizen when my question was about how to get out of being pked for a. Working for someone or b. Not working for someone. The snark helped though. Really, it did. The third option that actually works and doesn't result in you having to flee is to avoid the sponsored roles altogether whenever possible.

If you're holding onto your pride like a kangaroo holds onto it's young, you're going to piss someone off.

No really, where did I say anything about pride or are you just assuming and using it to try and invalidate what I said with sarcasm?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 01, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
If you're a support character who makes a lot of money who doesn't want to be a pincushion for bad guys, have you thought about paying whatever nearby toughs you see to be your guard on the regular?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: mansa on October 01, 2018, 04:44:53 PM
Data:

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuelAW2dNA8Cg1rCWIPj-POZRF_8
Read only.  Has Unique Logins, New Accounts, Characters Made, Characters rejected.  Jump in.


Numbers
Accounts:
(https://i.imgur.com/Zwyfxot.png)

Unique Players:
(https://i.imgur.com/xopMrm2.png)

New accounts signing up have been low past months.  Drama boards draw intrigue.. no drama on /r/mud lately.
Also no stories being told

Summary
Write stories of characters and use logs of characters to bring more players in, bring old players back.
Creative writing best avenue for retention and acquisitions
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 01, 2018, 04:45:48 PM
Just FYI really don't want this to become a discussion about how to avoid being PKd.  I'm talking about code and PK frequency where other alternatives that are still thematic are available.  Also how choosing RP over frivolous Pk can deepen the plot which is needed at this time to help retain interest.

Servants getting PKd to get at their masters are a tale as old as time.  That isn't going anywhere.  However codely perhaps there are things that can get addressed so that support role characters have a fighting chance with the use of common sense and code that works.  Or so that killing a support role in some of the most virtually populated areas like taverns isn't as easy as killing them in a dark alleyway.

So if we could not injection sarcasm and have a productive discussion that would be nice. This is also not an anti PK thread.  This is a how can we make the game better thread when we have less players and Tuluk decompression is not an option.

PS - What I take away from daughterofaust is that PK of servants of a bit over done and may become another thing that could use a little OOC consideration.  To that end I agree.  Should servants still be a potential target?  Yes.  But maybe sometimes we could find more creative less permanent ways to deal with support characters and I believe that leaders IG do have an OOC obligation to try to make the game fun for this with less coded privilege.  Do you have to share that ideal?  I guess not but there is a reason one assumes that special app leaders are chosen carefully.

A Templar has total PK privilege but we all know the best ones use their IG power to grow and create plots.  Not go on a power trip.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 01, 2018, 05:01:04 PM
I'd be fine with soldiers pathing to high-population virtual areas where VIOLENT CRIME is happening but you'll definitely catch a crimflag killing someone there, won't happen in a dark alleyway, but I suppose you're probably being hyperbolic.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lutagar on October 01, 2018, 05:04:51 PM
Wanton PKing isn't going to change until the code stops rewarding being the first to escalate to murder. Backstab. Archery.  Cast 'mon un fuck you bitch'. All great examples of the code rewarding you for being the first to instigate violence. Anyone who is honestly willing to sacrifice the coded advantages to interact deserves 20 karma, but these individuals are probably 1 in a 100.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lostinspace on October 01, 2018, 05:47:11 PM
Is PKing really wanton? I haven't noticed any more than I have seen in the past. Do any staff have a metric for PKs, is there really a dramatic rise I just haven't caught onto and when did it start?

Death and murder are facts of life in Armageddon, I guess I want to know when we cross the line into too much PK.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 01, 2018, 05:52:10 PM
Class enforcer: Oh, don't actually enforce anything.
Class raider: Oh, but don't raid players.
Class fighter: Oh, only in the sparring circle or against NPC gith.

PK is part of the game. Yeah, there's some petty shit going on with it with people killing other people who are linkdead or AFK, or who they have literally never interacted with before. And you've got some others who just metagame the shit out of the system. That behavior is wrong and you need to file complaints when it happens. Make sure the PK happening is actually story-developing, even if it ends the story for one individual.

Hey, that noble corners you and wants you to be their aide ... you don't think it's legit to ask, "What happened to your last aide?" I have seen SO many noble aides sit in Red's and throw their weight around. I'm important, you peon, I work for so-and-so. And then they're incapped in an apartment and it's suddenly OOC: You asshole, why are you killing me?

Because I work for so-and-so who hates YOUR so-and-so and paid me three large to off your fancy ass.

I've got a whole email folder dedicated to just kudos sent in from people I murdered or maimed. So ... some people like the game the way it is.

Armageddon isn't a chat room. It's unsafe. You'll get your shit stolen, possibly maimed, maybe killed. And sometimes it's just going to be because you work for the wrong person. When that happens, I do like to let you know as you lay dying that, "hey, this wasn't personal ... you're dying because of your boss." Because nobody likes to get to Mantishead and NOT know why. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Otherwise, let's just remove half of the classes, require consent before ever engaging another player, and everyone sits in the Gaj and emotes how tough they are while we plan out the next fancy dress party.

I don't know if PK has gotten worse. I know there's several players who have been making it worse by doing some metagaming shit. But in a game world this small, they're going to find you and it may look like it's a whole lot of people playing that way, when the reality is that it's only a couple.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Eyeball on October 01, 2018, 05:53:09 PM
My impression is that giving Storytellers more freedom to independently create small things and to run small plots in a top-down manner (e.g. kicking them off by having a clan senior NPC march into a room and charge a PC leader with getting something done or stopping something), and having Storytellers make use of that freedom, would do more to help the player base than curtailing PKing.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 01, 2018, 07:11:35 PM
My thoughts:
I'd rather be someone's pawn and end up dead by assassination, than dead by spider, or raptor, or war beetle, or random staff-created 20-mob swarm to make stuff interesting for Byn Crew #47789.

I don't really care why my character is being assassinated. Curious to know why, sure. Who wouldn't be! But care? Nah not really. If it's because killing my aide character will inconvenience the templar I work for, that's fine. If it's because my Jaxa Pah boss pissed off the wrong Guild boss, and the Guild wants to send the JP boss a "message," that's okay too.

As long as there's some RP leading to the final scene, and it wasn't just some random drive-by PK, it's all good. If I want to not be someone who ends up an "inconvenience" to someone else, I'll play iso, or I'll play the boss.

Your character's death, if you're doing it RIGHT - will always be an inconvenience to SOMEONE.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 01, 2018, 07:29:13 PM
My thoughts:
I'd rather be someone's pawn and end up dead by assassination, than dead by spider, or raptor, or war beetle, or random staff-created 20-mob swarm to make stuff interesting for Byn Crew #47789.

I don't really care why my character is being assassinated. Curious to know why, sure. Who wouldn't be! But care? Nah not really. If it's because killing my aide character will inconvenience the templar I work for, that's fine. If it's because my Jaxa Pah boss pissed off the wrong Guild boss, and the Guild wants to send the JP boss a "message," that's okay too.

As long as there's some RP leading to the final scene, and it wasn't just some random drive-by PK, it's all good. If I want to not be someone who ends up an "inconvenience" to someone else, I'll play iso, or I'll play the boss.

Your character's death, if you're doing it RIGHT - will always be an inconvenience to SOMEONE.

I don't always agree with Lizzie, but when I do, it's on being PKed. ;)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 01, 2018, 08:03:29 PM
Data:

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuelAW2dNA8Cg1rCWIPj-POZRF_8
Read only.  Has Unique Logins, New Accounts, Characters Made, Characters rejected.  Jump in.


Numbers
Accounts:
(https://i.imgur.com/Zwyfxot.png)

Unique Players:
(https://i.imgur.com/xopMrm2.png)

New accounts signing up have been low past months.  Drama boards draw intrigue.. no drama on /r/mud lately.
Also no stories being told

Summary
Write stories of characters and use logs of characters to bring more players in, bring old players back.
Creative writing best avenue for retention and acquisitions

Mansa this is really interesting.  Can you go back five years to this year?  Curious for my own self.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 01, 2018, 08:20:24 PM
I do not believe the correlation between numbers and PK is so directly linked, but they can be related in another way, which is I think what you're describing.  I am, however, a little wary of the terms provided.  PK-avoidance and so on.

I believe in a healthy, active PvP atmosphere in Armageddon.  I believe being killed by another player is ultimately the best death one can achieve in Armageddon.  I believe that in some arbitrarily high percentage of deaths at the hands of another player, the victim will feel injustice or slighted.  Thus, I do not believe the end result is actually what people should focus on, because having your beloved character, your progress, is ultimately always a hard pill to swallow, even if we acknowledge (some don't) that we are essentially in a heavy roleplaying rogue-like.

What I'd tell you to focus on instead is the manner that leads up to that death.  Something that you really only realize in retrospect.  There are essentially three scenarios; one is the 'surprise' death, which comes out of nowhere and you're not prepared for.  Arguably, these can be incredibly common since they are often impromptu reactions to a given action.  These will be common, and almost without fail, lead to the 'I shouldn't have done that' or 'I should have done this instead' sort of retrospect.  As a player, these are unavoidable, because they are most commonly attributed to reacting as your character would given a condition.

The other two though, are also based on acting in character.  I have two stories to demonstrate these, the first of which will be familiar to people in discord:
--BAD PvP Dynamic
  Playing a raider, I shot a singular arrow at a salter.  I missed.  Within one RL day, there was a literal manhunt for my character by soldiers, bynners, and mages, based off of the rumor alone.  The result was me taking a step back from the game because of the sheer disbelief that a single antagonist move against someone who I later confirmed was unconnected; I stopped playing as much, because it left a bad taste in my mouth, and was essentially a character-death before he'd ever actually earned any true merit of so much attention.  It was a case where the buildup wasn't there.

--GOOD PvP dynamic
  Playing an elf, I made enemies due to a prideful demeanor.  I didn't think it was a particularly big deal, but one of those enemies took it to heart and took the time of using misinformation and lies to rally people against the elf.  I was caught in a shitstorm, and it was a shitstorm that I actively logged into every night, hoping I could make some progress on clearing my name, causing ripples, and essentially fighting back the murderous rampage that awaited me from nearly every city clan.

The difference between the two was escalation.  One of them, it was a knee jerk reaction by bored people, and thus the prospect of death to it seemed shallow, unenjoyable, and led to less playtime.  The other, it was a planned response that was understood, and though death still loomed, it was something that I could actually engage in rather than simply be dogpiled.

Please, continue to foster a PvP environment; Armageddon with a competitive edge is far more driven, far more passionate, and far more delightful to engage in than one where we amiably refuse to cause distress based off of player-consideration.  As I said above, dying to another character means you were truly involved in something, whether it be large scale or small scale.  You've already made your impact.  But when deciding if and when to kill someone, also try to ensure it's in some way where even as an ambush, they could guess that someone wanted them dead.  Make it something that people log in for, rather than leave the game for.

That does not mean you have to laboriously manufacture rivalries and steps and shadow games.  It means that the danger level of the game for that character should rise on an even keel that they can actually engage in and interact through.  Every time they talk about that character to other people while their life goes on, they should feel that rise in intensity, 'My character could very possibly die next time I log in.  They have some serious enemies.'
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 01, 2018, 08:23:35 PM
Erm.

That being said, I also highly prefer the death to another character who saw an opportunity to advance their story through my death than to go on in conflict-free life for 40 days of playing time then die to an npc.  Sometimes, I didn't realize it, but I made my character as a stepping stone to another story, and that can be frustrating and satisfying at the same time, being that sudden obstacle to someone else who ends up becoming prominent after they figure out how to get past you.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: mansa on October 01, 2018, 09:00:20 PM
Data:

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuelAW2dNA8Cg1rCWIPj-POZRF_8
Read only.  Has Unique Logins, New Accounts, Characters Made, Characters rejected.  Jump in.

Mansa this is really interesting.  Can you go back five years to this year?  Curious for my own self.

Should be a read only link for everyone that goes back approximately 2010.

Give me a bit of time, though.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 01, 2018, 10:33:41 PM
Data:

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuelAW2dNA8Cg1rCWIPj-POZRF_8
Read only.  Has Unique Logins, New Accounts, Characters Made, Characters rejected.  Jump in.

Mansa this is really interesting.  Can you go back five years to this year?  Curious for my own self.

Should be a read only link for everyone that goes back approximately 2010.

Give me a bit of time, though.

Looks like in 2014 there were about 10K unique logins VS this year where there are 8K unique logins.  That's about 1/5th less than what it was in 2014.  I would look in 2013 but there is data missing for the first few months of that year.  However, we can see that in 2013 even with THREE months missing the unique logins by this time of year were about 8700 so I'm guessing for that year around this time they were probably about 10700 if the averages were anything to go off of.

Unique Logins by end of September:

2013 approx 10700
2014 10000
2018  8700

That's a 20% drop.

Character Accounts Created by September:

2014 - 2223
2018  - 1292

That's a 50% drop.

So needless to say, things feel a bit different volume wise.

Armaddict - I see your point but again, this isn't a thread about PK and reacting to it as it is about alternatives to PK and how it can affect  retention and plot and when is too much.

The accountant/number cruncher in me would love to see some numbers on PK vs unique logins to see what that rate of PK is in relation to how many people are actively playing these days.

Anyway, as I stated.  I want to keep the game PVP but I also want to keep it an RP game and make it viable for player driven stories to take root and that's where I'm trying to focus this discussion.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 01, 2018, 10:53:46 PM

Wait ... this isn't a thread about PK?

I mean ... you literally put "let's talk about PK" in the title.

Mansa's numbers are fascinating but unless you have a way to tie in less players because of rampant pk then I don't know that's going anywhere.

I do like the thought that some people want to foster a little more RP before the PK axe falls. That's encouraging. I would like to see the conversation develop a little more along those lines.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 01, 2018, 11:10:55 PM

Wait ... this isn't a thread about PK

I mean ... you literally put "let's talk about PK" in the title.

Quote from: Bebop
Armaddict - I see your point but again, this isn't a thread about PK and reacting to it as it is about alternatives to PK and how it can affect  retention and plot and when is too much.

This is a typo on my part.  I meant to write this isn't about getting PK'd and reacting to it as much as it is about alternative to PK and how it can affection retention and plot and when there is too much PK.  What I was trying to say is I want this less to be about the victims of PK and more about when the arbiters of such are justified and how those arbiters should consider their course of actions or what others they may take for the good of the plot.

Mansa's numbers are fascinating but unless you have a way to tie in less players because of rampant pk then I don't know that's going anywhere.

Quote from: Bebop
The accountant/number cruncher in me would love to see some numbers on PK vs unique logins to see what that rate of PK is in relation to how many people are actively playing these days.

I do like the thought that some people want to foster a little more RP before the PK axe falls. That's encouraging. I would like to see the conversation develop a little more along those lines.

Quote from: Bebop
Anyway, as I stated.  I want to keep the game PVP but I also want to keep it an RP game and make it viable for player driven stories to take root and that's where I'm trying to focus this discussion.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 02, 2018, 12:09:01 AM
It's a text based game with archaic syntax in 2018. Player numbers are going to drop. The game numbers seem to spike a little when something interesting happens, like the new classes or the super secret role call, and then dwindle back down again. Imho, there needs to be at least 50 players on at peak for the game to be healthy and interesting.

That said... Excessive PKs probably do contribute to the slow and steady erosion of the playerbase from those spikes. For one thing, after death, players must wait until their karma regens to take on certain roles. For another, because the pbase is too small to support two large cities, it's hard to make character divorced entirely from the social situations of your previous. And, it's just plain disheartening to die. There's a period of mourning for the character to be expected.

There's a feedback loop. As we lose players to PKs and other factors, the game world gets smaller and less interesting. More bored people, less players, feeding into more bored people, and more PKs and less players.

There are some things that could be done to make PKing in the middle of a city a more difficult endeavor, and things that could give players more options beyond just killing.  Apartments and taverns are deathtraps instead of sanctuaries.  Potent poisons are too common. Backstab and hide/sneak are too fool-proof. The infiltrator gets master backstab instead of master sap -- I'd personally prefer the option that lets me decide to spare another player.

More important is maybe making PKs not so bad. The karma regen system has it's heart in the right place ... limiting people from rolling endless karma 2/3 powerhouses that should be rare in the world.  But the effect is a disincentive to playing at all.

And while the skill grind is actually not so bad as things stand, it's still disheartening to have to once again train up basic skills in order be effective at your role. (And weapon skills level up glacially or not at all, but that might not be an entirely bad thing) The entire skill system should be overhauled such that if you have a skill, it works well over 50% of the time, at apprentice. A miscreant should be able to confidently pick pockets of small baubles from day one. A crafter should be able to craft from day one.  A day-1 warrior should be able to fight a day-10 warrior without embarrassing himself.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Marauder Moe on October 02, 2018, 01:47:08 AM
I dunno, are we losing players because of PKing, though?  That's why I asked about login statistics.  With some staff-side data we might actually be able to answer the problem.  It shouldn't be too hard to detect players who "quit" and see whether or not they were PK'ed around the same time their activity levels dropped off.

Until we have evidence of such a correlation, though, I'm not sure how useful talk of toning down the PK atmosphere is.  After all, our tagline is "Murder, Corruption and-" it's the first one!   ;)

It does also look like the game is in a bit of a recruiting slump.  I agree with Mansa that, anecdotally at least, player stories and logs are a good way to attract people.  Might be worth posting/linking a few in other MUD discussion forums.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Namino on October 02, 2018, 02:26:15 AM
I doubt very much that any generalized 'slump' is related directly to PKing. In my experience, which is both extensive and outdated by a couple of months, the vast bulk of players are avoiding player on player conflict that is resolved via combat rather than, say, subterfuge or political maneuvering. It seems unlikely enough people are dying in this way to noticeably reduce the population. There is a good reason for that, as open combat with another player in Armageddon is quite possibly the least satisfying experience I have encountered in any roleplaying game.

That being said I can confirm with absolute certainty that Armageddon is down at least one player due to the state of player on player combat. Namely, myself. I have no ill will regarding it, naturally, but my experiences in that domain ultimately purged me of any motivation to recommit to the game. Here's my insight, though it's mostly echoing what's already been said by Lutagar and others.

Combat code in Armageddon was clearly thoroughly tested on wildlife and in RPTs and the ilk. What is also plainly clear, is that there are enormous exploitable gaps that require quite a bit of player restraint to avoid when two people are fighting one another. Experiences vary, but when you have two 500 hours played characters engaging one another, with the potential risk being permanent loss of one character, it has been amply demonstrated that relying on players to moderate their gamesmanship is not possible.

My personal experience has been one of me attempting to exercise restraint -- letting people go where appropriate -- only to have them diligently apply perraine to 10-15 arrows over the next two OOC days and place them in a quiver with my name on it. I have had physics breaking, reality shattering exploitation of code smashed into me to lethal effect. And while I was never killed in this manner, I did play during the time period in which Whirrans were able to summon people over chasms for instant death by simply knowing their truenames, a state that persisted for some time before being acknowledged as the problem it was and patched out. Exploitative usage of code still persists and enjoys a vigorous prominence in PK.

Satisfying player on player conflict in Armageddon is only achievable when both players are more interested in telling an interesting story than they are with winning, because elsewise the less restrained of the two will smash their instant-win-button dejour and that'll be that. This is all terribly long-winded, but I'll concluded by simply quoting from the closing out requests I had as I was departing the game. I'm not sure if requests are intended to be confidential and I apologize if that is the case.

Quote
Needless to say - this has prompted a lot of discussion on the staff side of things.

We're in a bind, however - as this is 'virgin territory' - the use of [skill] in such a way isn't something we've experienced a lot over the history of Armageddon.

The overall feeling is that the skill's utility outside of [its intended purpose] needs to be re-evaluated. We also need to more closely monitor how PCs are using these skills to find out ways to restrict them codedly instead of having to introduce an 'honour system' players need to follow.

It's a sentiment I appreciate from the staff, but I do not envy the person who has to figure out how to fix these skills. In my experience, the combat code as a whole may need to be rewritten from the ground up entirely to avoid these things. But until that happens, PK in Armageddon will be unpleasant.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on October 02, 2018, 03:12:22 AM
Arma is dying from what I can see and it needs 1) new shit 2) revised shit 3) a voting drive 4) a temporary disbanding of the "no advertising" stuff.

I love Arma and I really want it to keep going tbh like damn

But it needs to be freshened up with something big and neatly scrubbing and polishing up some of the really janky 20yo code

But PKing has never been a problem to me unless it's WAAAAAY OOC

Like some shit just riding in and insta killing in the wild with no rp no reason nothing

That's what needs tapping down on

Regular pk? That shit is GREAT
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Nao on October 02, 2018, 03:22:08 AM
Unique logins are also down because arm dropped off the voting sites. If you look at the Ďhow players found usí threads from last year, there were dozens (up to 50?) unique logins from players who found us on TMC or TMS. Most of these players did not stick around, but they were definitely inflating the unique login numbers, even if they never made a character.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 02, 2018, 03:25:05 AM
(p.s. Don't forget to vote on TMC.)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: seidhr on October 02, 2018, 05:07:45 AM
Just a friendly reminder that it is never appropriate to call another player's roleplay out onto the carpet, in public, on the GDB, and tell them they need to get gud.

Topic that did so has been moved to moderation.  Plz to not do this again.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 02, 2018, 05:10:17 AM
Huh.. I apologize as that was not my intent :(

Either way! I just wanted to say that I agree with many of Bebop's points and a few remarks stated here as well.

Keep on PKing but only when it is healthy! PK backed with solid roleplay is what we want and not boring ones with flimsy reasonings behind them.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 02, 2018, 06:31:04 AM
PK as a subject is a red-herring for player retention, in my opinion. If anything, getting wrecked makes one hop right back into the story by whipping up a new character..

This isn’t a MUSH. If your PC would kill the other player, do it, equivocating to find reasons not to is OOC. The roots of the tree of the playerbase are watered by the blood of the PK’ed.

The real key to player-retention, is active world story-telling coupled with a return of main guild mages.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: najdorf on October 02, 2018, 06:38:43 AM
Bad PK by an experienced player is the main reason I quit the game last month. I support the idea of an automated/coded solution rather than a staff resolution in the aftermath of the event. You shouldn't walk into the War council guarded by 30 elite soldiers and be able to spam fireball or whatever and PK all players just because the code allows it. It diminishes fun, realism and playibility.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 02, 2018, 06:54:47 AM
Bad PK by an experienced player is the main reason I quit the game last month. I support the idea of an automated/coded solution rather than a staff resolution in the aftermath of the event. You shouldn't walk into the War council guarded by 30 elite soldiers and be able to spam fireball or whatever and PK all players just because the code allows it. It diminishes fun, realism and playibility.

Rage-Quitting over PK thatís deemed by staff as Ďfair playí, is silly. Itís not the playerís jobs to decide whatís legit or plausible in your highly specific example, it would be staff and if they review the kill and find it fair then let it go and make a new character.. If they find it an exploit or a bug theyíll most likely rez you. Otherwise, you died.. get over it. :)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: najdorf on October 02, 2018, 07:04:36 AM
Bad PK by an experienced player is the main reason I quit the game last month. I support the idea of an automated/coded solution rather than a staff resolution in the aftermath of the event. You shouldn't walk into the War council guarded by 30 elite soldiers and be able to spam fireball or whatever and PK all players just because the code allows it. It diminishes fun, realism and playibility.

... Itís not the playerís jobs to decide whatís legit or plausible in your highly specific example, it would be staff and if they review the kill and find it fair then let it go and make a new character..

It is as you say, but for me this fundamental is the root cause of many problems.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 02, 2018, 07:20:57 AM
Bad PK by an experienced player is the main reason I quit the game last month. I support the idea of an automated/coded solution rather than a staff resolution in the aftermath of the event. You shouldn't walk into the War council guarded by 30 elite soldiers and be able to spam fireball or whatever and PK all players just because the code allows it. It diminishes fun, realism and playibility.

I'd just like to point out that you used both a fireball spell and the word "realism" in the same argument.

Elsewhere in this thread, someone made a good point. The problem isn't the PKing in and of itself. It's the fact that when you're engaging in some sort of direct conflict with another player, and you both have 500 hours invested in those characters, that situation by itself promotes using the code to it's greatest advantage to keep from losing your investment. It's going to be a rare player that shows restraint, because doing so represents a major risk to that investment. If it didn't take so long to get characters to that point, people might be willing to take more risks with them, and PKs would sting less.

But on the other side of that same coin, that work...that effort and investment into your character to get them to a point where they're useful is part of what makes PK in arm engaging, impactful, and thrilling. And I don't mean thrilling in the sense that I'm just "thrilled" to PK people, but rather that, when I suddenly find myself as the target of an unexpected assassination attempt, my heartrate literally jumps and my adrenaline starts pumping IRL. It triggers a real-life fight or flight response in me, the player, that simply doesn't occur in PVP in other games, where there is no significant risk of loss. Permadeath is why I play armageddon. I can't complain when it happens, and have never submitted a player complaint against a PC that has killed mine, despite some obvious ones that likely were not RPed well. I always assume those are just random bandits/serial killer types who either wanted my noob boots or just got a kick IC out of killing my PC, which can be a perfectly legitimate thing for a character to do.

Do I support everyone going out and making serial killer PCs? No, not really. But I do think it should be allowed, and as something that is allowed, we as players should accept that it is a thing, in game, and give other players the benefit of the doubt.

I've found character death to be far more palatable since I've adopted character death as a goal for my PCs. My PCs have many and varied plans, and I pursue them. But I as a player also have a goal, and that is a good character death. Sometimes players don't have the political power to murder you with a bunch of RP, because that leaves you time to way others and tell them what is going on, so they have to use poisons and/or coded skills to prevent you from doing that and blowing their cover. And while I'd prefer more RP, I also understand why those particular murders by those groups of characters tend to happen that way.

Templars can afford to RP with you before they PK you. Rinthi assassins really can't, especially if they're not publically known as such. And they have as much a right to play their character to it's fullest as any of us do.

Want more RP before you die? Piss off more Templars/Nobles, and less Elves/Rinthis.

I don't think that PK itself is affecting our player population in any larger degree than it ever has. Do some people quit over it? Sure, but we've always lost players over it. Often on temporary breaks that may even last years.

Instead, I think the population took a big hit from a group of players that chose to create a huge headache for staff with releasing game information and such, which was followed by a lot of player bans, and the closing of Tuluk, shrinking the game world. If you look at logins and dates, I imagine there is a correlation with rapidly falling populations and those events.

I believe those are the two largest events that have had an effect on player population. I imagine that it was the hope of those in charge that the game would eventually recover population lost from those events, but since Arm players have historically been a very dedicated bunch, investing an inordinant amount of time into the game, that hasn't occurred. It's very difficult to replace a player that plays 8 hours a day, regularly. And to have those replacements outpace the player attrition that has always been part of the game is a monumental task, indeed. It's not impossible, I don't think. But it would take work, and quite possibly someone on staff who's sole job was to promote the game and grow the population.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 02, 2018, 07:41:36 AM
It is as you say, but for me this fundamental is the root cause of many problems.

Agreed.

Templars can afford to RP with you before they PK you. Rinthi assassins really can't, especially if they're not publically known as such. And they have as much a right to play their character to it's fullest as any of us do.

Want more RP before you die? Piss off more Templars/Nobles, and less Elves/Rinthis.

I've had a character die to both at the same time due to a very, very unlikely rumor - largest client for Elves/Rinthis are Templars/Nobles. I've had a Rinthi character who literally out of chargen was PKed in the streets which I was okay with because Rinth but still. I've had a character who died to their own clanmate who should not have killed their own blood but did so regardless because of EZ PK.

The point is that while these facilitated some small fraction of RP? It was incredibly easy for these PCs to pull off - my characters being utter underdogs. Search for ALTERNATIVES TO PK! Templars and those in a similar position of power (be it indie or otherwise).
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 02, 2018, 07:44:20 AM
PKs can be a true sucker punch to the stomach! Heck, I've went through several PKs that I would consider sub-par but am not currently allowed to disclose. It's stuff like that that genuinely make me want to quit and can you blame me? I have had many opportunities for my character to end another character yet have chosen not to. One character I had killed another because it was the only way my character could live - sort of an initiation thing and after that I realized that PK really isn't for me unless it comes to hiring assassins to face significant threats or when I absolutely need to have my character face another in that way.

Apologies for all the editing but I am just trying to get my points out there and happen to be tired at the moment :)

I encourage long-lived characters who are undeniably broken when running up against other PCs to do some more world-changing stuff rather than be focused on PKing upstarts. Not that all of them have been or anything! Not trying to vaguebook.. all I am saying is that those with coded power should use it to RP out change. Investigate the Grey or something!! Embark on expeditions into the Silt Sea! Don't get caught up in the drama of what characters are kanking who, etc.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 02, 2018, 08:56:07 AM
PK brings the drama and excitement to storylines that has kept me playing for 15+ years. I doubt Iím the only one, so I would say that pk is as much the reason we keep players as lose them. I think more open, exciting, desert pk due to factional conflict would get players more engaged and increase retention.

That being said, I agree that a shitty pk is a bitter experience. More Ďno-hideí flag rooms in the city and apartments would make sense to make stealth more realistic and add value to magick stealth ability. But my opinion of shitty pk is different than getting backstabbed in an apartment, those pkís take some skill and planning, and I respect that. Shitty pk is when authority roles use their coded advantage to execute a PC due to a political alliance that exists unexpectedly. These political alliances happen because the player base is small and the world has shrunk rather than because they make sense IG. Everyone knows everyone, which is an experience that gets stale.

Short-term breaks and frustration may be caused by pkís, but boredom and burnout is the real reason why players leave. We play to be entertained, when we get bored or need to prioritize rl, we stop playing.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Eyeball on October 02, 2018, 09:26:37 AM
Your first character or three will be the ones you are most attached to. The longer you play and the more characters you've lost, the less you care, in general.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Derain on October 02, 2018, 09:28:44 AM
Perhaps the karma regen is leading to low numbers because people are waiting for it to regen. I know st least a few who are on hiatus cause they don't want to play anything else.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 02, 2018, 10:04:07 AM
Perhaps the karma regen is leading to low numbers because people are waiting for it to regen. I know st least a few who are on hiatus cause they don't want to play anything else.

Yeah, for real!

Hmm.. you know, I hope I'm not sounding salty in my previous posts. I just want everyone to know that there is a time and place for PK and that there are two sides to every story!

It is also my hope that this thread wasn't posted from a place of hypocrisy such as the OP being someone who PKs aggressively and is just being responded to in kind. I am of the opinion that if you are going to dish out? Then you best be ready to be served in turn! Although I do not think this is the case being made here.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 02, 2018, 10:15:58 AM
I just want to point out people are saying it's not PK but we've had a few people chime in saying PK did cause them to leave.  I myself was on the verge of leaving when I was PKd after coming back.  Not because I was angry, I just didn't have it in me to start over.  With the encouragement of some kind players and staff I did continue but even now I struggle because I feel I am seeing some players replace RP with the constant pursuit of PK and in a smaller fish bowl at times it feels all consuming.

A lot of people are focusing on the code but I do want to focus on the RP aspect.  PK isn't about just codedly starting over.  It ends plots.  It isolates characters from players they enjoy interacting with and fun they were probably having if they stayed in their role.  Regardless, of skill you have to establish new connections etc.  PK as a plot point sends a shockwave through the playerbase especially when it is this small and for every PK I've seen that is really cool and impactful I've seen about ten that were totally unnecessary and did little but water down the plot and make it a challenge to keep playing.

This is why I'm trying to start the discussion that hey - this is an RP game.  Numbers are down.  There are RP alternatives to PK that can make the game more fun.  I'm not talking about the people even necessarily delivering the PK.  I'm talking about people relying so heavily on PK as a plot point at every little turn when, with a little imagination, plots could be deepened and the game might be better for it.

I'm all for PVP but more so I am for the RP quality and integrity of this game staying in tact.

That being said codedly too there are things that don't make sense right now and are heavily tilted towards PK instead or RP.  But I hope regardless of numbers and code the RP element of what I'm trying to say isn't being lost.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: puella on October 02, 2018, 10:20:56 AM
2013 was the apex for numbers: both before (to 2010, when records begin) and after numbers have been pretty much the same.  Whatever we did in 2013 we should repeat, and in particular April - June 2013.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 02, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
Arma is dying from what I can see and it needs 1) new shit 2) revised shit 3) a voting drive 4) a temporary disbanding of the "no advertising" stuff.

I love Arma and I really want it to keep going tbh like damn

But it needs to be freshened up with something big and neatly scrubbing and polishing up some of the really janky 20yo code

But PKing has never been a problem to me unless it's WAAAAAY OOC

Like some shit just riding in and insta killing in the wild with no rp no reason nothing

That's what needs tapping down on

Regular pk? That shit is GREAT

I agree with MoO.
About Desert PK:
 While we are experience the initial anger and sadness of losing our character when I die, one thing you need to remember is your character is not going to live forever. Even though you may have died like others have said above, it for thereís another person storyline. If you are player killed you should be proud. It means more times than not that you were doing something that was affecting others on the game world.

As  someone whoís played multiple raiders, left for nearly a decade in return, I can tell you that a lot of the times people are killed on the desert is because of a previous bad experience. Usually that pertains to the person who was killed not giving in the raider a chance to role-play with them during a previous encounter. With all of my present characters I have experience that if you stop in role-play you wonít die. However, the one time I did run away I ended up dying later. :oHowever, the one time I did run away I ended up dying later.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lairos on October 02, 2018, 11:01:23 AM
As someone who has PK'd, had others PK for them and been PK'd themselves countless times over the years I have never stopped playing due to it. I do agree that it can be difficult to think of a new concept or start over, but that is also the beauty of this game. You actually GET to start over and be someone new. I believe I saw it earlier as well, but I would much rather be PK'd from some plot or to further some other character's agenda than by some massive mob of spiders. I can even say that I was in a rare position a few years ago to either PK many others or spin the reaction of my own character and let them kill me instead which was more of an OOC decision.

That being said, I think there are people who have quit or took a long break after their character had been killed, but one could say that even about being killed to mobs as well as players. We as players get attached to the story of the character we are playing because of the immersion and because of the time spent. It is a work of love on each character and our personal time we devote is precious to us. Having that feel like its been taken away is difficult, but this is Armageddon. Sometimes as the one being killed you don't get to see the large story arc behind it and what has all been done for the buildup of that moment for many other players involved. Trying to give someone a big scene for their end with the way things are is very difficult, but sometimes not impossible. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Just because you didn't get to see the big story yourself does not mean it didn't happen. I think trying to restrict people from PK or allowing them to play out their character as they would will become too restrictive and you will end up losing far more players. I don't feel like taking away more from players is the way to go.

Finally, I do believe that there are likely some players who, after they have died, have decided to wait on a special app or even wait for their Karma to regenerate because what they actually want to play is not available to them at the current time. I am of the mind that we all play this game to have fun or its not worth playing. At the end of the day, I think PK is only a SMALL part of what causes people to take a break or leave and there are many other things that go into it. I for one posted about leaving previously because of RL issues that have since been resolved.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Potaje on October 02, 2018, 11:58:22 AM
I think that if you play this game and are worried about PK then your playing the wrong game. This is a niche game to begin with. Permadeath is not to common to games. If one was to argue about what would keep and drive people away its the permadeath, everyone comes for the thrill of the challenge to survive the murder, betrayals and corruption. Not to just survive npc mob #44. Of coarse people don't want to lose the character they have grown attached to but we all go into this know it will eventually happen. And Bebop, we have been playing this game long enough to know these are the aspects of the game which are the exciting unknowns, the tension and the conflict after all what is conflict without repercussions.

Aside, the way it is now balances power in the city. Sure you might have that noble that is untouchable openly, and you can crap on any person of lower station than you but you better remember an assassin's darts from the shadows can still get you. And thus is the balance. If we take away PK, or stealthues then take away nobles and templars, for they are as unbalanced.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 02, 2018, 11:58:40 AM
I disagree with the "it ends plots" concept. It ends your plot. Or maybe it doesn't even end that. It ends your character's story, nothing more or less.

If my character is preventing someone else from continuing THEIR plot - then them killing my character will PREVENT plots from ending. It'll allow THEIR plot to continue without my character being in the way. And when I arrange for someone else's character to die, often it's because their character is preventing MY plot from continuing. PKing them allows MY plot to continue.

It ends your character's story. It will end some plots. It will allow other plots to start, that wouldn't have had any reason to start if your character had lived. It will allow even more plots to continue, that would otherwise have been stifled or halted if your character had continued to live.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Derain on October 02, 2018, 12:17:25 PM
Lizzie is spot on.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: PriestlySiren on October 02, 2018, 12:24:34 PM
I get more upset when people exploit code to the detriment of RP.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 02, 2018, 12:33:52 PM
Maybe a good way to think of it might be what is this character I'm considering killing adding to the game?  What am I adding to the game if anything by removing them?


No one is talking about taking away PK
or saying you should never PK.  The point overall is that this is an RP game and PK doesn't equal good RP.  And that one intense moment can sometimes, not always, diminish the plot if you aren't careful with a player base that is small.

And I'm not speaking in absolutes.  I'm not saying it's like that all of the time.  A good PK kill has it's place but listen to what I'm saying.  Making PK your go to in lieu of other creative plot pivoting does a disservice to the game when you PK needless and rob the plot of dimension.

I'm not saying don't PK.  I'm saying ask yourself if it's the best choice and if you can get more creative because too much mindless PK hurts plots.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: deskoft on October 02, 2018, 01:03:44 PM
I both agree and disagree with you Bebop. I think mindless, frequent PKing is bad and I cannot agree with you more. If this is an scenario where my PCs are consistently murdering characters without thought, I must stop to consider if my roleplay is any good. I think however that the occasional PK that 'ends' a story is needed.

I am a roleplay junkie but what I will not do is ignore a situation where my character would PK you. I will do it. It is the nature of life in extreme circumstances. Kill or be killed. I play to consistently give others a realistic, breathing character and this includes when they thematically decides to PK.

My statement, however, has a facet: my character will PK you if he would if he were a character. Here is where things regulate themselves. As a player, if I were to play to win, for sure I would PK anyone who gets in my way. But my character is not treating other characters as linesa of text: these are persons and there are consequences, coded or not. That is when my PCs tend to PK only when the situation REALLY bids it. Sometimes I can give you an awesome scene, sometimes your death is rushes and desperate, and sometimes it is so fast that nobody notices it. But there was a solid reason. And I hope other players will think I had a solid reasosn as part of some roleplayers' code. We are all hobbyists in a game we all love for what it can provide and it relies on each other trusting the rest that they are always playing a character with motivations, flaws and stengths. That is where I disagree. What sets Arm apart is that distinction between a MUSH and a game that strives for 'as close as it gets too playing this scenario,' which includes that your loved ones will die, that you will die, that you will have moral choices to make, that you will step back from your chair shivering after a PK attempt and cursing the game and each and every one of its players, only to look back at it a month later to realise: holy shit nothing else can give me this.

Obviously PK is not CENTRAL to Arm. Dying and killing wouldnt be this way if we didnt love our stories, if they didnt have a chance to foster, if they didnt feel so personal.

And obviously if PK wasnt so necessary, starting a new PC wouldnt feel like starting a new life, building from the start.

Armageddon is a tough game, but it is an escape from reality. I do think and I am passionate that regardless of playerbase fluctuations we give people something they cant get anywhere else: your story here is more intense and more immersive than any book or any movie.

We have things to improve, but all games do.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lairos on October 02, 2018, 01:12:58 PM
I absolutely agree with Deskoft.

I believe that is an OOC consideration to think of their plots and what you are removing from the game for an IC action. If you as a character believe that the way to get your plots to continue is to completely off this other person standing in the way? You as a character don't care about their plots and would actually prefer to see them all fall with them if you are planning to kill. I don't see why they would bother thinking about anything else? There are absolutely times that don't always call for the end all PK. I know I have done other things than PK and given benefit of the doubt through RP and ruining or other devices only to have to end up PKing anyway in the end, but at least I tried. Those occasions are not all the time however since I have also had characters where it just isn't them to allow their enemy to have another option to retaliate against them.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 02, 2018, 01:23:23 PM
It may be an OOC consideration, but the reality is there is an OOC element to this game because it is a virtual world.

The OOC consideration is why we have karma for powerful roles, and why people with total PK privileges like Templars are vetted before they get the role and continually followed up on.  It's the same reason it's in poor taste to attack someone who is obviously new.  Sometimes we find IG reasons to not do something because of OOC reasons to make the game better.  These types of standards aren't relegated to PC leaders.  We all have a responsibility to realize we are part of a community and a game.  If we did not have OOC considerations this is not a game you would want to play, nor would we have made it this far.  And this is what I'm trying to point out.

We are drawing from a limited pool of people.  Maybe getting PK'd doesn't dissuade you.  But it could dissuade the person you PK and the people around them.  Granted, that's not your responsibility.  I'm using your in general to whoever is reading this.  But if you don't feel like you have at least a smidgen of obligation to make the game playable and to lend yourself to plots that are fun?  We have a problem.

We're all going to have different opinions.  Ultimately, I'm addressing the player base collectively here.  You have an IC obligation to play your character, but you also have an OOC obligation to try to make the game interesting, fun and enjoyable IF you want it to stick around.

This sort of insular idea, that you just have to focus on yourself, your characters and your preferences isn't going to work.  The reality is the game is dwindling and I know on my part, and clearly on the parts of others here, a big part of the deterrent is because it's a struggle to get a good, deep story going.  I'm not stating this as a knee jerk reaction, I'm stating it as someone who has played for a decade off and on and am seeing a clear devolution and a player base that's drying up.

So either we can have a real conversation on how to make the game better, or we can hug PK for any reason we can pull out of the air tight and cling to an insular mindset.  But if there's no one else to play with and players can't be retained you can have all of the opinions you want --- but you won't have anyone left to play with.

I'm not trying to speak out of personal preference, (although obviously I'm going to have my own bias) I'm saying - hey, do we want Arm to stick around and what do we want it to look like?  In it's current state I think codedly it's tilted towards PK instead of plot for several reasons I listed here and that's what I want the PB to consider.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Potaje on October 02, 2018, 01:39:24 PM
I have known bebop in game for years and you have a large body count of your own, so I wonder, why right now all of a sudden you are complaining about pks? I don;t believe you, even to this day, shy away from killing pcs heavily. Perhaps lead by example?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 02, 2018, 01:47:13 PM

You have an IC obligation to play your character, but you also have an OOC obligation to try to make the game interesting, fun and enjoyable IF you want it to stick around.


This right here is absolutely correct. However, that does not mean stop PKing because OOCly the other player might quit if you do.

If it would be IC for you PC to PK that other character, then do it. If it would not be IC for you PC to kill that character then do not. It is that simple.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 02, 2018, 01:49:55 PM
I have known bebop in game for years and you have a large body count of your own, so I wonder, why right now all of a sudden you are complaining about pks? I don;t believe you, even to this day, shy away from killing pcs heavily. Perhaps lead by example?

Huh?  I could probably count how many people I've PK'd in this game over a decade on my fingers and toes.  Also, I can't remember a single time I've ever played with you, IG and now you're just taking the dialogue to a toxic place so let's not.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Derain on October 02, 2018, 01:59:33 PM
I have to agree if there is a reason to PK do it especially if someone is trying to ruin your plots or kill your characters friends. You'd be stupid not to.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 02, 2018, 02:08:18 PM
I've had a character who died to their own clanmate who should not have killed their own blood but did so regardless because of EZ PK.

I think I'm the one who did that. I regretted it soon after in that it not only didn't foster the conflict and plot I had thought it would, and also that it left me with nobody to play with. I continue to regret it, I apologize, and I learned from it. That was one of those "I don't have time to think this through but I'm going to do it anyway" moments.

The reality is that not every PK goes the way you want. Sometimes I just meant to knock people out and rob them and then the gamecode killed them. Sometimes you want it to be better, but it just doesn't always come together.

It's a learning experience. I want to kill each of you with love and proper attention to give you the story's end you miserable bastards so richly deserve. Especially the ones who have put in the time and devotion to crafting a really solid character. I want you to play that character for months and months, interacting with me as a villain, before you finally get put into the grinder and I give you the long villain's monologue. I want you to know for weeks ahead of time that you've become involved in something deadly, scary, and that will result in your horrible demise if you're not very lucky. But that's an art form that's hard to master. It's difficult to pull off in a game where there's timing, crimcode, social allies, and a host of other things going on.

So forgive me if I sometimes fall short of the mark and you get an end that's premature, unresolved, and unsatisfying. I'm trying.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: deskoft on October 02, 2018, 02:18:59 PM
Lets try to keep the healthy debate and not fall on personal attacks that do not have a place in this community.

Bebop: I think at least I am agreeing with you on the key of your statement and disagreeing on others. I think what Krath pointed out is summarily my idea of it. I disagree that our playerbase is tiny but thats going to be an agree to disagree situation.

My idea is: Do what your character would do, while it is IC and is mindful of other players on an OOC basis but not on an IC basis.

GOOD

This isnt a tell YOUR story game. This is a be cast into a big, oonglasting story game. The reactions above I feel are IC thematic. Nobody can say they are inconsistent. They are realistically messed up reactions.

That said, Im not saying PK is the way. As real life, PK is usually a last resort. Why not block their plot and overpower them?

If youre killing PCs without a good reason: reconsider. Was this really desperately needed? Was my PC in a really threatening position? Was there no way I could send this message without PKing.(we even have mutilation).
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 02, 2018, 04:14:26 PM
This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they arenít Arm material.

Murder is literally one third of our mission statement, and often goes hand in hand with Corruption and Betrayal. If a player is concerned their death was suspect they can send in a request.. Iíd love if Staff responses, drawing on the PK report of the murderer, can assure the Ďvictimí player their death was pre-meditated, part of a plot, etc. perhaps even offer a possible bio entry for context since deaths can be quick and startling.


Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 02, 2018, 04:27:39 PM
This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they arenít Arm material.

Murder is literally one third of our mission statement, and often goes hand in hand with Corruption and Betrayal. If a player is concerned their death was suspect they can send in a request.. Iíd love if Staff responses, drawing on the PK report of the murderer, can assure the Ďvictimí player their death was pre-meditated, part of a plot, etc. perhaps even offer a possible bio entry for context since deaths can be quick and startling.

I love the idea of a bio entry but I don't think that's gonna happen since it would probably reveal things the player wasn't privy to.
Also, I don't think people quitting is always intentional or out of anger, it's just inevitable burn out if PK gets to frequent and dips in quality.

You better not start PKing more Vox.  You're really a softy on the inside, I know it!  ;D

Really, I just want all PCs to turn into anthropomorphic Tuluki tregils.  That was my secret point to this thread all along.  I became a furry in my five years of absence. 

I'm starting to feel really guilty I tried to veil it in a plea for a more RP based code and play style.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 02, 2018, 05:29:50 PM
whatever.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Rumor on October 02, 2018, 06:03:10 PM
In a truly savage world, sparing someone is a risk. There is little tangible leverage you can hold over characters beyond the threat of death or ultimately killing someone and this is largely in part due to how little material possessions and finances matter in the game world, how little status matters among commoners without the backing of brutality or nobility and how very trivial it becomes to feed ones self after a modicum of experience. What this means is, you can threaten someone in various clever ways and they are unlikely to respond or you can threaten their life. People respond to this.

People respond to the threat of death with loyalty, companionship, camaraderie, savagery, betrayal, conspiracy and a host of other things. Getting what you want when someone else doesn't want you to have it is Armageddon. And the way you get what you want in a savage, desert planet devoid of civility and understanding is you murder them. You can out play them, out smart them and out maneuver them politically, but ultimately it's all boiling down to access to one thing: access to the ones with the sword. It'll always come down to death or it won't be Armageddon.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 02, 2018, 06:47:52 PM
This is why I'm trying to start the discussion that hey - this is an RP game.  Numbers are down.  There are RP alternatives to PK that can make the game more fun.  I'm not talking about the people even necessarily delivering the PK.  I'm talking about people relying so heavily on PK as a plot point at every little turn when, with a little imagination, plots could be deepened and the game might be better for it.

Look, I'm all for this shift towards alternatives to PK. But over the years, policy due to OOC feelings has diminished options for antagonists in the game. Getting rid of murder only hasn't happened because it's core to the integrity of an RPI permadeath MUD. But along the way, things like slavery and sexual assault were taken off the table as tools for the wicked, and it has made antagonist RP more one-dimensional.

I'm all for having more alternatives to murder, IC. But I think some of those old alternatives should be returned as options for the players. I don't want to rehash the sexual assault argument, because that is never-ending and too personal a topic for too many players on an OOC level. But I think re-vamping slavery, and adding items to the game to support IC kidnapping beyond the simple "subdue" code would be a step in the right direction, to allow more interesting plots to unfold than simply PKing people.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Brytta Lťofa on October 02, 2018, 07:02:19 PM
> subdue amos
You subdue the tall, muscular man.

The tall, muscular man struggles against you.

> use rope amos
You begin tying up the tall, muscular man.

The tall, muscular man struggles against you.

The tall, muscular man struggles against you.

You hog-tie the tall, muscular man.

> pack amos war
You pack the tall, muscular man on a war beetle.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Is Friday on October 02, 2018, 07:09:14 PM
I feel like every time I'm PK'd there's a direct correlation with being too generous a player. So, you're welcome nerds.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Rokal on October 02, 2018, 07:11:59 PM
This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they arenít Arm material.


This is a terrible mindset to approach any game. No one is 'anything' material to start with when they come to a new game, the initial experience is what opens them up to future experiences. A newbie that is bright eyed and bushy tailed about the game may know that its harsh and tough.

But if they get killed because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time and the didn't get much of an _experience_ out of it, how will they ever become the 'arm material'  you're looking for?

Killing other players? Fine. Make it an experience for them. Don't make it some sort if litmus test that to see if they're material. That only chases people away.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 02, 2018, 07:45:30 PM
This thread just makes me want to PK more than I already do. If people are going to quit when they get killed, they arenít Arm material.


This is a terrible mindset to approach any game. No one is 'anything' material to start with when they come to a new game, the initial experience is what opens them up to future experiences. A newbie that is bright eyed and bushy tailed about the game may know that its harsh and tough.

But if they get killed because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time and the didn't get much of an _experience_ out of it, how will they ever become the 'arm material'  you're looking for?

Killing other players? Fine. Make it an experience for them. Don't make it some sort if litmus test that to see if they're material. That only chases people away.

1)  Newbies already get a lot of leeway in this regard from the community as a whole, making it a moot point.  I'd dare you to contest otherwise.
2)  There are essentially 2 areas of the game where this may be bypassed by lack of exposure, outside the city (raiding) and the 'rinth.  If they have no idea that those areas are dangerous and can lead easily to character death, it's the entire community shortchanging them, not the one playing their role in those areas.
3) This was not presented as an 'Arm suitability litmus test'.  This was presented that if a player cannot handle the death of a character in a permadeath game with heavy conflict elements, they are either asking for sustained coddling or would probably enjoy themselves a great deal more elsewhere.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill out of misplaced indignation.  People playing the ruthless should feel free to be ruthless with whatever efficiency they choose insofar as it remains IC.  If your approach is 'but newbies', all you're saying to me is 'but exceptions', in which case I agree there are indeed exceptions, most of which can be accounted for.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 02, 2018, 08:00:45 PM
probably enjoy themselves a great deal more elsewhere.


Taking that deal.

I don't PK often. I don't get PKed often. But this thread full of PK hounds (at least one of whom logs on once a fortnight just to make a kill) has thoroughly soured me on an experience that was already getting pretty boring because of a lack of players.

I'm here for the story. If PKs are making the story better, then they are a good thing. That's the case a lot of the time. But, if PKs are making the story worse, they are a bad thing. Some of you need to check yourselves, because your kills are falling into that category.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 02, 2018, 08:04:22 PM
Quote
I don't PK often. I don't get PKed often. But this thread full of PK hounds (at least one of whom logs on once a fortnight just to make a kill) has thoroughly soured me on an experience that was already getting pretty boring because of a lack of players.

I'm here for the story. If PKs are making the story better, then they are a good thing. That's the case a lot of the time. But, if PKs are making the story worse, they are a bad thing. Some of you need to check yourselves, because your kills are falling into that category.

I find it odd that you equate people stating the relevance of PK with being a PK hound.  I'd like to know which of my recent PK's you're exposed to.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 02, 2018, 08:49:21 PM

I find it odd that you equate people stating the relevance of PK with being a PK hound.  I'd like to know which of my recent PK's you're exposed to.

I have no idea who you are playing at the moment. I can't specifically recall any of your prior characters. I just find the defense of unmitigated PKing distasteful.

I've not personally been PKed (without absolute consent) in RL years. This isn't me being butthurt over a personal tragedy.

Quote
People playing the ruthless should feel free to be ruthless with whatever efficiency they choose insofar as it remains IC.

...is a poor excuse. First, you're the one who has declared your character 'ruthless'. Second, if I can play aggressive characters who hardly ever actually PK, so could you.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 02, 2018, 09:22:42 PM
Quote
I have no idea who you are playing at the moment. I can't specifically recall any of your prior characters. I just find the defense of unmitigated PKing distasteful.

I actually have done nothing like that.  I've outlined qualifiers all along the way, with the only stopping point being the attempt to curb the appearance of PK, as a whole, being some taboo thing that only people with OOC motives does.  I've discussed situations where it was poorly done and well done in the past, differentiating between reactionary PK, which is usually a direct result of immediate IC events, PK-danger that makes me play more, and PK-danger that makes me play less.  I've discussed how we all acknowledge the leeway given to new players as one of several exceptions to where even if it's IC for the kill to happen, you may want to hold off.

The part you fixated on prior was where I said IF you have a hard time with character loss and it's something that you expect to avoid out of the goodness of other players' heart regardless of what is IC and what is not, then you're likely going to have a hard time enjoying the game.  That is not some extremist point of view, or a nudge for everyone to go start killing willy-nilly.  It's a caution against creating the perception that this is a low-violence, low-conflict theme where you generally stay safe.  That would be giving a false impression.

I mean...you even brought up fortnight as a slight for someone logging in to do the point of that entire game.  People who play games centered around PvP are not automatically bloodthirsty griefers when they log into their roleplaying game, but some of us -do- like the omnipresent threat of true violence in our roleplaying game, and Armageddon is unique among most roleplaying games where that danger is built into the setting.  There are other roleplaying games where I don't have to consider other players much of a threat, and they are not nearly as exciting, on the grand scale.  Having real, intelligent people playing real, intelligent enemies with their own lack of predictability adds that excitement, insofar as one does not grow -too- attached to each individual character.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 02, 2018, 10:29:14 PM
  Having real, intelligent people playing real, intelligent enemies with their own lack of predictability adds that excitement, insofar as one does not grow -too- attached to each individual character.

True, however...firstly, the game design works against low attachment. It requires hundreds of hours for a character to become effective at their role, if their role is based on coded abilities. It requires a few minutes of play time to PK that same character, given favorable circumstances. Typing poison knife, etwo knife, hide, sneak, s, s, s, w, w, w, s, backstab merchant, hide, n, e, e is hardly the cunning plan we are hoping for from real, intelligent enemies.

Secondly, the on-going narrative is such that if there is low attachment to characters, there is also low attachment to the plot. A day 0 character has no attachment to the plot, and comes into the world without any relationships to other characters (d-elves and sponsored roles excluded).

Any case, numbers don't lie. Just logged in long enough to type WHO, and we're at 38 players, less than 40, right in the middle of peak. That is a problem. At absolute minimum, need 50 for the game to be fun, ideally 70 to support a second city.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 02, 2018, 10:46:16 PM
I've had a character who died to their own clanmate who should not have killed their own blood but did so regardless because of EZ PK.

I think I'm the one who did that. I regretted it soon after in that it not only didn't foster the conflict and plot I had thought it would, and also that it left me with nobody to play with. I continue to regret it, I apologize, and I learned from it. That was one of those "I don't have time to think this through but I'm going to do it anyway" moments.

The reality is that not every PK goes the way you want. Sometimes I just meant to knock people out and rob them and then the gamecode killed them. Sometimes you want it to be better, but it just doesn't always come together.

It's a learning experience. I want to kill each of you with love and proper attention to give you the story's end you miserable bastards so richly deserve. Especially the ones who have put in the time and devotion to crafting a really solid character. I want you to play that character for months and months, interacting with me as a villain, before you finally get put into the grinder and I give you the long villain's monologue. I want you to know for weeks ahead of time that you've become involved in something deadly, scary, and that will result in your horrible demise if you're not very lucky. But that's an art form that's hard to master. It's difficult to pull off in a game where there's timing, crimcode, social allies, and a host of other things going on.

So forgive me if I sometimes fall short of the mark and you get an end that's premature, unresolved, and unsatisfying. I'm trying.

Apology accepted! I understand that these things happen, so no harm.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 02, 2018, 10:47:52 PM
I am pleased to see that this thread is on the direction of healthy discussion! Makes me eager for the next player meeting.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 02, 2018, 11:29:56 PM
  Having real, intelligent people playing real, intelligent enemies with their own lack of predictability adds that excitement, insofar as one does not grow -too- attached to each individual character.

True, however...firstly, the game design works against low attachment. It requires hundreds of hours for a character to become effective at their role, if their role is based on coded abilities. It requires a few minutes of play time to PK that same character, given favorable circumstances. Typing poison knife, etwo knife, hide, sneak, s, s, s, w, w, w, s, backstab merchant, hide, n, e, e is hardly the cunning plan we are hoping for from real, intelligent enemies.

Secondly, the on-going narrative is such that if there is low attachment to characters, there is also low attachment to the plot. A day 0 character has no attachment to the plot, and comes into the world without any relationships to other characters (d-elves and sponsored roles excluded).

Any case, numbers don't lie. Just logged in long enough to type WHO, and we're at 38 players, less than 40, right in the middle of peak. That is a problem. At absolute minimum, need 50 for the game to be fun, ideally 70 to support a second city.


So.. for this bolded part, are you assuming the low numbers are because folks getting PK'ed are quitting the game? Others have pointed out in this thread that there is no proven correlation, and I agree with them. There have been many changes to the game in the past few years, which could be a factor, as well a community of addicted, aging players finally deciding to hang up the old hat.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 02, 2018, 11:41:43 PM
I will say this, the Karma regen time will likely cause me to take a Hiatus, until all my karma is regenerated after each character. If I earn the Karma, I should be trusted to use it when I want. I think that is or will be the biggest cause of influx of the playerbase.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Derain on October 02, 2018, 11:44:14 PM
Agreed with Krath it definitely is keeping a few players out right now.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 03, 2018, 12:02:47 AM
Agreed with Krath it definitely is keeping a few players out right now.

Well, shame on them. I'm dealing with it. They should too. There's some interesting zero karma combinations that can be had. What are they going to do? Just NOT play anything if they can't play the powerhouse?

But also, I've been informed by staff via a response to a request that the karma regen is bugged right now and it's not working. Since it went in, I have not had one single karma point regenerate, and I was informed that there's many people affected by this.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 03, 2018, 12:08:50 AM
Agreed with Krath it definitely is keeping a few players out right now.

Well, shame on them. I'm dealing with it. They should too. There's some interesting zero karma combinations that can be had. What are they going to do? Just NOT play anything if they can't play the powerhouse?

But also, I've been informed by staff via a response to a request that the karma regen is bugged right now and it's not working. Since it went in, I have not had one single karma point regenerate, and I was informed that there's many people affected by this.

Miradus,

Let's be real though..This is Crackageddon...After about a day of withdrawal, I will be rolling up a merchant linguist.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 03, 2018, 12:11:16 AM
I'd like it if karma were just reverted back to its most recent state where regen wasn't a thing. You should be able to roll in another mage if your last one just got trashed. I think someone stated that they do this to prevent griefing or something like that but you would be disallowed to app a certain character were it an issue anyway since we already have to go through an application process.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inks on October 03, 2018, 02:11:10 AM
PK is awesome, when it happens to my PCs, as opposed to logging in drunk and dying from dehydration/monsters/ not having a weapon out, or just sober dead to random NPC as well!


The threat of death is why I keep playing this game.Love it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inks on October 03, 2018, 02:12:17 AM
This is why I'm trying to start the discussion that hey - this is an RP game.  Numbers are down.  There are RP alternatives to PK that can make the game more fun.  I'm not talking about the people even necessarily delivering the PK.  I'm talking about people relying so heavily on PK as a plot point at every little turn when, with a little imagination, plots could be deepened and the game might be better for it.

Look, I'm all for this shift towards alternatives to PK. But over the years, policy due to OOC feelings has diminished options for antagonists in the game. Getting rid of murder only hasn't happened because it's core to the integrity of an RPI permadeath MUD. But along the way, things like slavery and sexual assault were taken off the table as tools for the wicked, and it has made antagonist RP more one-dimensional.

I'm all for having more alternatives to murder, IC. But I think some of those old alternatives should be returned as options for the players. I don't want to rehash the sexual assault argument, because that is never-ending and too personal a topic for too many players on an OOC level. But I think re-vamping slavery, and adding items to the game to support IC kidnapping beyond the simple "subdue" code would be a step in the right direction, to allow more interesting plots to unfold than simply PKing people.

Also +1, and kudos to imms for allowing PCs to become penned gladiators under the right circumstances.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Nao on October 03, 2018, 03:06:41 AM
I'm not convinced that there are more players driven away after a PK than those who enjoy it and keep coming back because of the way the game is, which PK being a central part of it. I would also rather play with the second sort of player.

There still seems to be a correlation between player numbers and PK, but for the reasons that have been most mentioned in this thread. There are key players who play a lot, are very engaging, and keep an entire area alive. When they drop off the map for any reason? Everyone else in that sphere, clan, or area logs in less and plays less because there is not much going on and there is nobody with the same ability to make things happen, start plots, or at least keep them going. I'm sure you have all seen this happen, after PKs, deaths to other causes, or if someone just stops logging in.

Also, there are rarely, if ever, more than 50 players online during my play times. On good days, it's in the low 30s. But I still manage to enjoy the game, and have seen plenty of action over the last year or so since I came back. If you can't enjoy the game with less than 50 players online, you're probably not fully utilizing opportunities with those players who are playing.

Also, those low 30s? Are unusually high numbers for off-peak times, compared to years ago. When I first logged in again, I was surprised to see this many players online. Peak may be down, but I'm not too worried about overall numbers.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 03, 2018, 03:25:15 AM
I second Armaddict.

And that fortnight comment was directed at me, but Iím still sorry to see you go, Number13, you really broke my heart.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 03, 2018, 03:46:50 AM
I second Armaddict.

And that fortnight comment was directed at me, but Iím still sorry to see you go, Number13, you really broke my heart.

You log in once every 2 weeks to PK someone? When was your last login? Maybe we can make it a sort of IC holiday, where all our PCs huddle together in the Gaj in fear of the Vox. :D
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 03, 2018, 04:18:21 AM
I second Armaddict.

And that fortnight comment was directed at me, but Iím still sorry to see you go, Number13, you really broke my heart.

You log in once every 2 weeks to PK someone? When was your last login? Maybe we can make it a sort of IC holiday, where all our PCs huddle together in the Gaj in fear of the Vox. :D

The comment was directed at me but it isnít accurate. Fearing me always, is usually the healthiest.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Cind on October 03, 2018, 04:22:56 AM
I sort of always thought it was games like Breath of the Wild (which was reported to have lowered visits to porn sites after it was released; good luck for the rest of the entertainment business) and all those multiplayer games that were being released, like Overwatch because I don't really know the names of the rest of them.

But you've got greats coming out like Far Cry 5 and Horizon Zero Dawn (at least, I heard they were good; I just spent an hour on Final Fantasy VII, as I don't have a video game allowance in any capacity) and I'm a little surprised to hear that people were expecting the numbers of people logged in at peak to stay the same.

If it helps any, off-peak numbers have been better for the last year, at least they were where I was playing. I think one factor, don't know how big, is that massive online multiplayers are easiest to group for if you log in at our peaktime.

I know that groups rise and fall with the tides and the amount of death tends to rise and fall with them, but the kind of people that log in to play already should know to expect that--- periods of untimely and common deaths, and periods where its at least a little easier.

You guys talking about the numbers dropping does kind of worry me, but I have the kind of evil hours no one with a plot wants to have, so I haven't really noticed.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: boog on October 03, 2018, 11:58:36 AM
I'm not playing because I'm not inspired, and because I still can't get over having only one city state or thinly populated tribal clans to play in or as. *shrugemoji*

Allanak needs to be more socially and politically dynamic and less top heavy, imho. Luir's is cool, but eh, at the same time, uncool. Tribes could be cool, but they still don't really add to the story much, considering their low numbers and very, very limited power when it comes to the powerhouse of Allanak or even Luir's.

Eh.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 03, 2018, 12:58:04 PM
I'm not playing because I'm not inspired, and because I still can't get over having only one city state or thinly populated tribal clans to play in or as. *shrugemoji*

Allanak needs to be more socially and politically dynamic and less top heavy, imho. Luir's is cool, but eh, at the same time, uncool. Tribes could be cool, but they still don't really add to the story much, considering their low numbers and very, very limited power when it comes to the powerhouse of Allanak or even Luir's.

Eh.

I think what you said about Allanak is exactly what I'm trying to say.  The word dynamic is excellent.  Tit for tat PKs aren't engrossing or a substitute for a plot.  I'll say the same qualifier - they have their place, but when they are all consuming it's obnoxious.

I also agree, re-open Tuluk.  Create an IG antagonist.  I volunteer as tribute.  Put me in coach.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 01:13:20 PM
Tuluk being open to players or not isn't the problem. The problem is that it effectively ceased to exist and went "virtual".

Freil's Rest is a viable option as a low-key play center, but what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

There are so many options for NPC antagonists that could come out of Tuluk.

Creepy gangs of bagheads, patrolling soldiers...

Basically what we need is a tangible external threat.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 03, 2018, 01:19:47 PM
Tuluk being open to players or not isn't the problem. The problem is that it effectively ceased to exist and went "virtual".

Freil's Rest is a viable option as a low-key play center, but what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

There are so many options for NPC antagonists that could come out of Tuluk.

Creepy gangs of bagheads, patrolling soldiers...

Basically what we need is a tangible external threat.

I don't agree.  There are plenty of raider groups and antagonists IG right now adding to the PK list.  It isn't the same as the socio-political dynamic people are looking for.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 03, 2018, 01:28:56 PM
Tuluk had the same exact top-heavy problem that some perceive in Allanak right now, and it definitely had the "high PK" moments, not even scratching the surface of the problems with active Lirathans and their stranglehold on plots.

Luir's outpost is basically the new northern city, with the added and arguably interesting dynamic that their "noble Houses" aka the GMH members are also permitted in and are part of the southern city's economy, and vice versa. Maybe it's time for Luir's Outpost to get a shanty town just northwest of the gates, in that open desert area. Lots of people living there... start building out a bit.

edit: crossposting to new thread to not clutter up this one.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bogre on October 04, 2018, 02:23:21 PM
Agreed with Krath it definitely is keeping a few players out right now.

Well, shame on them. I'm dealing with it. They should too. There's some interesting zero karma combinations that can be had. What are they going to do? Just NOT play anything if they can't play the powerhouse?

I mean, I play concepts. Sometimes that means 2 mages in a row. Though sometimes the mood strikes me to play a throwaway, I'm usually very averse to playing throwaways just to be in game. If I don't have a compelling concept I'm playing, I'm most likely not going to play until I can do it.

The theory about PK driving people away can certainly be true. My first character in the SoI revamp (2014-15) was PK'd. Someone used advantageous code circumstances to PK a char of mine. (I was injured in a preceding RPT, but as everyone was headed back, I was pressed for time and had to log out due to OOC circumstance. When I logged in, though under no threat when I logged out, the opportunity was taken to kill me when I logged in). They also abused follow mechanics. That essentially left a bad taste in my mouth, and I essentially stopped playing for 3-4 years. -YEARS-. And that's not simply because 'I'm not SoI or RPI material'. I had the 30th or so most played PC in the original version of the game. But one simple interaction, combined with being very busy (It was my internship/junior residency) and lack of places to restart a char that I just felt it wasn't going to be very fun. And once I'd drifted off, nothing really jumped out and snagged me back in. I'm sure I would have had fun if I had played in the intervening years. But instead it's had -1 player for a long time.

I feel that's similar to how a lot of Armageddon players might become absentee. A sour experience leads to a break, a break leads to IRL stuff, other games, etc, and then suddenly, -1 character. There's nothing wrong with PK. I've been murdered before in Armageddon and the experience made me -hopping- on the keyboard to get back in and play and continue to explore the world. I've marked my share of kills.

But seriously, try to take in consideration someone else's person. It's a collaborative story, and it's going to be a sad one if no one's left in the sandbox to collaborate with.

 
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: sleepyhead on October 04, 2018, 02:37:31 PM
Quote from: Delirium
what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

Spot on. I feel uncomfortable playing in the north or even mentioning Tuluk IG because it's in such an awkward state. It's really OOC. This isn't some minor closed tribe. It's an entire city-state that somehow no one knows the state of and everyone pretends doesn't exist unless they are forced to acknowledge it. You can play a Tuluki refugee, but you can't know what's going on in the city that your character JUST escaped from. I would rather Tuluk be utterly destroyed forever than continue to exist in this jarring, immersion-breaking limbo. Tuluk has been in this uncomfortable half-existence for way too long now. Can we just do something? Anything?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 04, 2018, 02:46:41 PM
Spot on. I feel uncomfortable playing in the north or even mentioning Tuluk IG because it's in such an awkward state. It's really OOC. This isn't some minor closed tribe. It's an entire city-state that somehow no one knows the state of and everyone pretends doesn't exist unless they are forced to acknowledge it. You can play a Tuluki refugee, but you can't know what's going on in the city that your character JUST escaped from. I would rather Tuluk be utterly destroyed forever than continue to exist in this jarring, immersion-breaking limbo. Tuluk has been in this uncomfortable half-existence for way too long now. Can we just do something? Anything?

Yes, I agree here. It is really awkward to bring Tuluk up at all because of the above statement
 
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 04, 2018, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Delirium
what we need is for Tuluk itself to still be present in the story.

Spot on. I feel uncomfortable playing in the north or even mentioning Tuluk IG because it's in such an awkward state. It's really OOC. This isn't some minor closed tribe. It's an entire city-state that somehow no one knows the state of and everyone pretends doesn't exist unless they are forced to acknowledge it. You can play a Tuluki refugee, but you can't know what's going on in the city that your character JUST escaped from. I would rather Tuluk be utterly destroyed forever than continue to exist in this jarring, immersion-breaking limbo. Tuluk has been in this uncomfortable half-existence for way too long now. Can we just do something? Anything?

You said that far more eloquently than I could and I'm in complete agreement.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 04, 2018, 07:39:06 PM

If PK is such a sticky problem for so many of you ... here. I hereby sign the following PK pledge:

I will not kill you randomly, or if I suspect you're AFK, or just because I want your boots. I will not game the system in order to kill you. I may have to kill you in an apartment because you never leave the city and you only spamwalk between taverns and quit rooms, or I may have to kill you with a blowgun for the same reason, but rest assured your death is part of a larger story whether you know it or not, and if I can safely monologue for ten minutes while you expire in front of me as to the myriad of reasons why you're about to see the mantishead, then I shall. And if there's the means to simply maim or torture you instead of ending your story, I shall attempt that too, but know that when you refuse to give consent to anything ... well ... I probably got to just make some wine from your sour grapes and go ahead and kill you. Or if the last time I had you down stunned you immediately popped back up and ran to the nearest Templar to give them my entire masked description, well, I have to just kill you. Or if the last time I let you live it resulted in a city-wide manhunt by 20 people who didn't even have a thematic reason to even BE in the city, then I can't take the risk and ... I have to kill you.


Signed,
My many psychotic and murderous characters yet to come
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 04, 2018, 11:51:00 PM
🙄
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: tapas on October 04, 2018, 11:52:31 PM
I wouldn't say player killing is the primary reason people leave. The game just exists in such a niche and appeals to such a particular age group and requires such a huge investment of time that of course players are going to move on. I just can't help but roll my eyes when someone says this or that reason or STAFF are the cause of the fading player base. It's just the nature of the beast.

That said. My disappointment in the past at how players handled player deaths has been palpable. So much so that I actually rage quit for a proper two years. And recently, again I've encountered some things that have left a bad taste in my mouth.

I play this game to have fun, bounce off of interesting characters and try to explore unexplored aspects of the game. Sorry but I have no interest in playing Locked Room Musical Chairs, Crime Code Tag or Lure the Patsy. And I don't care what your IC reasoning is either. I just don't. And I lose patience with players and staff that insist this is some sort of gold standard of Zalanthas.

You've got the tools. Assassins are better than ever. You've got all the heart-pounding pk-pvp you want. So cut out the scrub moves, please.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 05, 2018, 12:31:29 AM

If PK is such a sticky problem for so many of you ... here. I hereby sign the following PK pledge:

I will not kill you randomly, or if I suspectbecause you're AFK, or just because I want your boots.but rest assured your death is part of a larger story whether you know it or not, and if I can safely monologue for ten minutes while you expire in front of me as to the myriad of reasons why you're about to see the mantishead, then I shall. And if there's the means to simply maim or torture you instead of ending your story, and it makes sense to do so IC, I shall attempt that too.

From the perspective of a player who has probably killed less PCs than you could count on one hand(directly), this is still all I'd be willing to agree to, from that pledge.

Wanting something another PC has and won't easily give up is completely legit cause for violence. In the synopsis of the game on the website, it suggests violence might occur over a drink of water. Them boots might pay ta fill up an entire skin. But I'd probably try other avenues, first. Just because you -can- kill someone, doesn't mean you -should-. But I want arm to be dangerous, and I like that some people play "desperate" PCs who are willing to kill or otherwise engage in violence to extract coin. I -do- wish those people would do it from the beginning, though, instead of spending 20 RL days twinking up their rinthi assassin to be able to steal boots. If they've put that much work in, I'd like to see players aim a little higher, at that point.

But I think this should be a general "ettiquette" style guideline in the docs somewhere, rather than a rule.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 06, 2018, 06:30:35 AM

Combat code in Armageddon was clearly thoroughly tested on wildlife and in RPTs and the ilk. What is also plainly clear, is that there are enormous exploitable gaps that require quite a bit of player restraint to avoid when two people are fighting one another. Experiences vary, but when you have two 500 hours played characters engaging one another, with the potential risk being permanent loss of one character, it has been amply demonstrated that relying on players to moderate their gamesmanship is not possible.

My personal experience has been one of me attempting to exercise restraint -- letting people go where appropriate -- only to have them diligently apply perraine to 10-15 arrows over the next two OOC days and place them in a quiver with my name on it. I have had physics breaking, reality shattering exploitation of code smashed into me to lethal effect. And while I was never killed in this manner, I did play during the time period in which Whirrans were able to summon people over chasms for instant death by simply knowing their truenames, a state that persisted for some time before being acknowledged as the problem it was and patched out. Exploitative usage of code still persists and enjoys a vigorous prominence in PK.

Satisfying player on player conflict in Armageddon is only achievable when both players are more interested in telling an interesting story than they are with winning, because elsewise the less restrained of the two will smash their instant-win-button dejour and that'll be that. This is all terribly long-winded, but I'll concluded by simply quoting from the closing out requests I had as I was departing the game. I'm not sure if requests are intended to be confidential and I apologize if that is the case.

This really needs to be restated.

It's kind of hard to be charitable to the pro-pk players when you watch this sort of bullshit unfold over and over and over again.

It's really hard to be charitable to staff when they tell you to put in a player complaint you already know they're going to ignore.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 06, 2018, 06:53:24 AM
Actually...that's all...pretty much a load of crap to me.  Just sayin'.

The code of Armageddon has shortcomings, but is actually by and large huge steps above other muds that are solely built around PvP, with the exception of -balancing-...something that is more in tune with pure PvP MUDS rather than RP Muds where roles are played but conflict is prevalent.  It's made up for by there being a whole other host of things that are important in the game besides combat in the first place.

Once again, the basis of that entire line of thought lies in permadeath, and every death needing to be 'tapped in' and filled with meaning pertaining to some non-existent arc.  It doesn't.  The characters, by and large, are meaningful to someone or another, but not every death is.  The story is told regardless, but not every character wraps up like the end of a well-written novel, because we are not writing novels.  We are writing paragraphs, chapters, footnotes, and blurbs in a much larger novel that never actually -does- wrap up.

It makes the age-old inference that short, sweet conflicts are deprivations and shouldn't happen.  It makes the age-old inference that such requires a 'winning armageddon' mentality rather than people just thriving in the setting the best they can.  And the irony of that latter inference is that it's...kinda the griper's desire to 'win' something out of it more than the guy who doesn't attach a bunch of additional meaning to the actions in the game.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Veselka on October 06, 2018, 11:34:33 AM
Actually...that's all...pretty much a load of crap to me.  Just sayin'.

The code of Armageddon has shortcomings, but is actually by and large huge steps above other muds that are solely built around PvP, with the exception of -balancing-...something that is more in tune with pure PvP MUDS rather than RP Muds where roles are played but conflict is prevalent.  It's made up for by there being a whole other host of things that are important in the game besides combat in the first place.

Once again, the basis of that entire line of thought lies in permadeath, and every death needing to be 'tapped in' and filled with meaning pertaining to some non-existent arc.  It doesn't.  The characters, by and large, are meaningful to someone or another, but not every death is.  The story is told regardless, but not every character wraps up like the end of a well-written novel, because we are not writing novels.  We are writing paragraphs, chapters, footnotes, and blurbs in a much larger novel that never actually -does- wrap up.

It makes the age-old inference that short, sweet conflicts are deprivations and shouldn't happen.  It makes the age-old inference that such requires a 'winning armageddon' mentality rather than people just thriving in the setting the best they can.  And the irony of that latter inference is that it's...kinda the griper's desire to 'win' something out of it more than the guy who doesn't attach a bunch of additional meaning to the actions in the game.

I agree. Being a long lived PC can provide your own natural story arc in a sense -- Scrub to Jaded Master. I've done it a couple times, and it's semi-satisfying in that any kind of death is a relief. What PK does is take away your control of that 'moment of death', much like in RL, and that can be upsetting to people. This idea of offering the benefit of the doubt, or restraining yourself, is an OOC construct. Would the PC restrain themselves? Would the PC give the benefit of the doubt? In a harsh world like Zalanthas, it's possible, but I also think it's fudging the lines of IC and OOC too closely for my liking.

I, personally, wouldn't offer the benefit of the doubt or restrain myself just because I'm considering the feelings of the other player. If the PCs have gotten to the point where a PK is happening, it's going to happen whether I like it or not, or whether they like it or not. It may be a long lived PC, I may have a long lived PC. But death has come, and it's time for one of us to roll up a new PC.

I think part of the issue here is attachment to PCs in general. The longer I play the game, the less attached I am to a PC, and the less I mind when/if they die. Have I had shitty deaths? Of course. I've been PKd while AFK, Paralyzed by an Elkran and given very little RP on the way out, and so on. You get over it. It might suck at the time, but it's part of what makes this game great or even possible. Permadeath, and PK within it.

The problem with saying you will give the benefit of the doubt or show restraint if it makes sense IC is that you can make anything make sense IC if you want. But you have to ask yourself -- Does this fit the setting of the game? Am I showing restraint out of some OOC consideration for a player? Because honestly, you aren't doing the game world itself any favors by not participating in one of the tagline of the game. In fact, the first one, in all caps.

MURDER.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 06, 2018, 01:00:30 PM
Actually...that's all...pretty much a load of crap to me.  Just sayin'.

Nah.  Players that show restraint and a little bit of good faith are always going to lose to the players that don't.


The code of Armageddon has shortcomings, but is actually by and large huge steps above other muds that are solely built around PvP, with the exception of -balancing-...something that is more in tune with pure PvP MUDS rather than RP Muds where roles are played but conflict is prevalent.  It's made up for by there being a whole other host of things that are important in the game besides combat in the first place.

Once again, the basis of that entire line of thought lies in permadeath, and every death needing to be 'tapped in' and filled with meaning pertaining to some non-existent arc.  It doesn't.  The characters, by and large, are meaningful to someone or another, but not every death is.  The story is told regardless, but not every character wraps up like the end of a well-written novel, because we are not writing novels.  We are writing paragraphs, chapters, footnotes, and blurbs in a much larger novel that never actually -does- wrap up.

It makes the age-old inference that short, sweet conflicts are deprivations and shouldn't happen.  It makes the age-old inference that such requires a 'winning armageddon' mentality rather than people just thriving in the setting the best they can.  And the irony of that latter inference is that it's...kinda the griper's desire to 'win' something out of it more than the guy who doesn't attach a bunch of additional meaning to the actions in the game.

What? It's got nothing to do with the setting, how fast or slow conflicts are resolved or how storyable the death is.

It has everything to do with how the game is played and the choices made by the players.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 06, 2018, 05:51:56 PM
+1 Vesleka and Armaddict

My biggest issue revolves around playersí perception of how things should unfold for their character without allowing for that glorious variable of chaos to disrupt their carefully laid hopes and plans. Getting PKíed is never going to feel great regardless of circumstances for the very fact that the player didnít Ďchooseí it. The only times Iíve heard players say they enjoyed their death is where they willingly chose it.. but even then theyíre faced with all the unresolved Ďwhat ifís. The sting is lessened though because they still felt Ďin control.í

And thatís my issue with peopleís complaints, the root is usually the lack of control. I encourage giving into the story and giving over control to the forces around you immediately upon log in. Everyone will have more fun.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 06, 2018, 08:27:31 PM
Fun PKs:
Two nearly equal characters duel to the death.
A dissonant gets chased down and slain by a large hunting party
Noble or merchants snipe at each other in escalating political moves that eventually involves minions dying on the street to each other's blades.

Unfun PKs:
Someone one-shots you in an tavern or apartment, and then sneak-hides back to their nigh-impenetrable fortress, in nearly perfect safety to themselves.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 07, 2018, 02:05:37 AM
+1 Vesleka and Armaddict

My biggest issue revolves around playersí perception of how things should unfold for their character without allowing for that glorious variable of chaos to disrupt their carefully laid hopes and plans. Getting PKíed is never going to feel great regardless of circumstances for the very fact that the player didnít Ďchooseí it. The only times Iíve heard players say they enjoyed their death is where they willingly chose it.. but even then theyíre faced with all the unresolved Ďwhat ifís. The sting is lessened though because they still felt Ďin control.í

And thatís my issue with peopleís complaints, the root is usually the lack of control. I encourage giving into the story and giving over control to the forces around you immediately upon log in. Everyone will have more fun.

Nah. Players pk because they want to achieve control over their environment. And it's no wonder when there is little else someone can do to manipulate that environment.

I suspect the players that are more tolerant of uncertainty are less likely to pk because then they are not viewing anyone's characters as threats that need to be eliminated from their playsphere.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Cind on October 07, 2018, 02:14:28 AM
Its hard to play the game and not accidentally kill someone.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 07, 2018, 05:28:17 AM
Noble or merchants snipe at each other in escalating political moves that eventually involves minions dying on the street to each other's blades.

This can't happen because of crim code.

Unfun PKs:
Someone one-shots you in an tavern or apartment, and then sneak-hides back to their nigh-impenetrable fortress, in nearly perfect safety to themselves.

Hence, this happens instead.

I don't think there is a problem with quick assassinations. The kneejerk reaction of most, if not all of the playerbase when confronted with the fact that there is a hostile person in a room with you who tries to RP is one of three things:

1. Drawing weapons to fight on more even terms,
2. Immediately trying to get out of the room,
3. or immediately waying people to get help.

Very rarely would it go to begging, or other general RP that wouldn't cost the aggressor pretty much ALL of their advantage. And therein lies the problem. You can't demand RP, then do one of the above. But if you(random person, not anyone in particular) were put into that position, it'd be very difficult to say you wouldn't do any of the above and have someone believe you. It's just instinct. Survival instinct, even. Having put so much time and effort into your character's story, it would be amazingly difficult to "reward" an assassin's attempted RP by not attempting to take away the advantage they had. And you'd be doing so by using code, which would include drawing weapons, waying, or trying to flee. And we have to bear in mind, quite often, the other person has JUST as much riding on the success or failure of that assassination as you do. Failure could absolutely mean their death. Even success, if they let you way first, could mean their death. And people who play assassins don't want to assassinate ONE person, ever, then die. That's not their vision for their character, just like dying to them isn't your vision for yours.

That's why the code is there. So that, when a conflict escalates to a point where emotes and says don't seem to be able to determine an outcome, the code then becomes the arbiter of who is the "victor".

If there was a room echo when someone used the way, just some sort of visual cue, it might encourage more RP before murders, since they'd know if you were trying to contact someone or not. But it wouldn't eliminate ALL of the instant assassinations, because they're coded that way as an arbiter of conflict. Stalking you around the city, or breaking into your apartment and waiting for you to get back, that -is- RP. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It sucks, I know. I've been PKed that way, too. And there -are- some things I'd change if it were up to me, but requiring or expecting sneaky one-shot assassins to give up their coded advantage after they've put the work into the setup isn't it.

If a particular use of the code is viewed as unrealistic or abusive, or if code indirectly promotes abusive behavior, it should be the code that is asked to be changed, not the players utilizing it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 07, 2018, 06:20:29 AM
Quote
And there -are- some things I'd change if it were up to me, but requiring or expecting sneaky one-shot assassins to give up their coded advantage after they've put the work into the setup isn't it.

I could abuse the fuck out of the code and get away with all sorts of improbable shit. It wouldn't be hard to log in way, way, way off peak and completely loot certain organizations. It would even easier just to get a backstage pass via joining organizations, and then completely loot them way off peak.

There's plenty of really super twinky things that could be done to "win" the game. We don't, generally, do them because these super twinky things aren't actually conducive to the overall story.

Quote
If a particular use of the code is viewed as unrealistic or abusive, or if code indirectly promotes abusive behavior, it should be the code that is asked to be changed, not the players utilizing it.

Both.

Let's take an extreme example and say I found a dupe bug that let me replicate obsidian within a Nenyuk account, and used it to make 100 million coins. Should the bug be fixed? Yes. Should I use the bug to do silly things in the story like dump chests full of 100,000 coins across every room in Allanak? No, I should not.

I could join the Arm, and go around PKing to my heart's content, with the aid of the wtfpwn NPC half-giants. Codewise, there's nothing stopping an Arm member from murdering the shit out of every last single noble in the game. I earned that coded advantage the hard way, by joining and advancing in what I consider an exceptionally boring clan. Who are you to say I shouldn't use it to murder PCs by the dozen?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 07, 2018, 07:55:44 AM
Quote
And there -are- some things I'd change if it were up to me, but requiring or expecting sneaky one-shot assassins to give up their coded advantage after they've put the work into the setup isn't it.

I could abuse the fuck out of the code and get away with all sorts of improbable shit. It wouldn't be hard to log in way, way, way off peak and completely loot certain organizations. It would even easier just to get a backstage pass via joining organizations, and then completely loot them way off peak.

There's plenty of really super twinky things that could be done to "win" the game. We don't, generally, do them because these super twinky things aren't actually conducive to the overall story.

Quote
If a particular use of the code is viewed as unrealistic or abusive, or if code indirectly promotes abusive behavior, it should be the code that is asked to be changed, not the players utilizing it.

Both.

Let's take an extreme example and say I found a dupe bug that let me replicate obsidian within a Nenyuk account, and used it to make 100 million coins. Should the bug be fixed? Yes. Should I use the bug to do silly things in the story like dump chests full of 100,000 coins across every room in Allanak? No, I should not.

I could join the Arm, and go around PKing to my heart's content, with the aid of the wtfpwn NPC half-giants. Codewise, there's nothing stopping an Arm member from murdering the shit out of every last single noble in the game. I earned that coded advantage the hard way, by joining and advancing in what I consider an exceptionally boring clan. Who are you to say I shouldn't use it to murder PCs by the dozen?

In every scenario you described, there are NPCs or vNPCs that would be involved, and your actions would be punished ICly by staff(and possibly OOCly if they knew that you knew you were supposed to wish up if you were breaking into a compound full of NPCs, but you didn't.).

That is significantly different than what I'm referring to, and what several people are complaining about. People are complaining about assassins and sneaks using their skills as intended, by doing things like murdering you in your apartment without seen RP. But visible RP directly cancels out their main, coded, intended advantage, and transfers the opportunity for TONS of advantage to their victim, with I'd feel safe saying 95% of people would take advantage of. And sure, IRL, apartments/homes feel like a safe space. In arm, they're a killbox. I would like to see some effort put into changing that. But it's not the killers fault that apartments are that way. That's the codes fault, and you can't blame the players for ICly taking the route they're most likely not to lose their character on. Because BOTH characters have value to their prospective players.

And to answer your final hypothetical more directly:

"I could join the Arm, and go around PKing to my heart's content, with the aid of the wtfpwn NPC half-giants. Who are you to say I shouldn't use it to murder PCs by the dozen?"

First, I believe there is only 1 position in the game at the moment that isn't a highly policed sponsored role, who is in the Arm and could potentially incite aid from NPC half giants. And I don't think that PC can give them orders, so the NPC soldiers just have to HAPPEN to be nearby when someone is marked as wanted. It's not like they can run around with HG seal team six following them around to direct attack other PCs. HOWEVER, if -that- was your character, and it was IC for you to do kill all those people, I wouldn't fault you for doing it so long as you communicated with staff so that the NPC world reacted appropriately both during and after. If it was IC for you to kill 12 PCs in a single OOC night, and you pulled it off while still RPing everything on the money and communicating to staff? Fucking kudo's to you, my friend. That couldn't have been easy.

Now, if you're talking about PC sponsored roles who CAN order around half-giant seal team six to follow them around and murder whoever they want, those players have to follow a different set of expectations as outlined in the sponsored role when they're working with staff, specifically because those roles come with the power to perform partial game resets like that, and I imagine that in -most- cases, but not necessarily ALL cases, such an event wouldn't be within the scope of the sponsored role, as outlined in the agreement between staff and the player who is chosen to play it.

However, in the long history of Armageddon, I imagine there have been several instances of single players who have been responsible for similar numbers of deaths in single RPTs and such. It's not beyond the realm of reason for a player to do it, and have it be completely justifiable IC. And there is definite power imbalance between character types in the game. Not every pair of enemies in arm will be evenly matched, or even given an equal opportunity to BECOME evenly matched.

In that way, arm reflects the reality of real life, and it adds to the gritty, unforgiving, and yes, sometimes unfair feel of the world. And in this player's opinion, that is a part of it's charm.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 07, 2018, 01:29:11 PM
Its hard to play the game and not accidentally kill someone.

I wouldn't call it a pk if it was an accident.

But I'll point out, following around some newbie who then just happens to lead us into an unwinnable fight with the pit gith is probably more enraging.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 07, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
I'm pro PK as fuck.  It's my go to when someone's crossed my character. All my characters have one thing in common, pkilling someone has to be earned.  Rarely do I level up a character to be a cold hearted murderer but all my characters end up friends with someone who can make it happen OR know someone who can lead them to whoever can make it happen for them.  Being pkilled is the ultimate compliment for me.

I'm with Vox and Potaje on this.  Murder is one third of our mission statement and the amount of people who don't get that, or that are trying to change it, is disturbing to me. It's also one of the things that seem to occur less than they use to.  I'd be interested in seeing ACTUAL numbers from the switch to roleplay required until today.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 07, 2018, 04:27:01 PM
Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vex on October 07, 2018, 06:09:12 PM
There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Eyeball on October 07, 2018, 07:51:35 PM
There has to be a building and achievement side to the game, otherwise why not just play Fortnite. You can't have a building and achievement side if things are too slanted toward destruction and who gets to screw who over.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 07, 2018, 08:36:11 PM
i don't know where the fallacy that pk requires paperwork came from, but unless you're a sponsored role and you're already writing in reports, filing reports for a pk is not and has not ever been a requirement. it's NICE and appreciated when you do, but you do not have to.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 07, 2018, 09:30:12 PM
+1 Vex and ShaLeah
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 07, 2018, 10:12:54 PM
Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

It IS though. It HAS been for God knows how long.

http://armageddonmud.org/intro/what_you_know.php

https://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?rules


You may not like it, but murder, corruption and betrayal are the NORM on Zalanthas.

+1 Vex and ShaLeah
;D
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 07, 2018, 10:21:19 PM
There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...

I disagree with that almost entirely. You are an experienced player, you know just how to play safely and survive. Not all do, and I can almost guarantee that you do not put yourself into ultimately fatal positions in the game world itself. Explore the places that are known for their dangers and such (the Grey Forest, Mantis Valley, etc.). In NO way is this game easy and it isn't PvP alone that is making players leave but I do believe it is a part of it when it is a PK without any quality or reason for it. If you genuinely want to play a game where PvP is the main focus? I do not suggest Armageddon. PK is a small part of it in a sandbox such as this, and it has its dangers and intrigue but I will say that ultimately PK should be an option out of many. I find anyone who goes about with the idea of PK in mind (hiring assassins or twinking themselves to that level) is highly unoriginal and far from entertaining.

MURDER is one word in that tagline. It is not the goal nor should it be. Your character's priorities come first and if that means PK? Then power to them!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 07, 2018, 10:27:24 PM
Do not mean to target you Vex or you ShaLeah! But I think you can agree that Armageddon is about the story, what you and others add to that story, and what experiences that story provides to we as players or staff or whatever the heck you may be.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 03:37:55 AM
Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

It IS though. It HAS been for God knows how long.

http://armageddonmud.org/intro/what_you_know.php

https://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?rules


You may not like it, but murder, corruption and betrayal are the NORM on Zalanthas.


No it isn't. Because barely anyone plays it except to get their way.

No it isn't. Because I can play a character that is/does none of those things and get karma for it.

It's just a dumb marketing tool to bring in the thirteen year old edgelords. It has little to no bearing on actually what happens in the game. And I suspect the reason some players can't accept that is because they're attached to the nostalgia.

There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...

If I was thirteen years old, that would sound really cool.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 03:54:11 AM
There is no need to curtail pvp, in any way, shape, or form.

The game is already too safe, too easy, and too full of eye rollling drama, when it is supposed to be a dying planet, filled with strife and brutality, where life isn't just cheap, it's a real commodity. Everything is corrupt, and in a state of decay.

Too many perfect pcs, in perfect armor and perfect weapons, with too much wealth, and no tangible threat of hunger/starvation. The threat of pvp, is all we have , and it already requires ooc paperwork to process...

If any of the anti-pvp bleeding hearts, think pvp is the reason players are leaving, they need to pull their heads out of the sand and take a good, long, look around, because the reasons couldn't be more obvious, or documented.

We need MORE blood in the sand, not less...

I disagree with that almost entirely. You are an experienced player, you know just how to play safely and survive. Not all do, and I can almost guarantee that you do not put yourself into ultimately fatal positions in the game world itself. Explore the places that are known for their dangers and such (the Grey Forest, Mantis Valley, etc.). In NO way is this game easy and it isn't PvP alone that is making players leave but I do believe it is a part of it when it is a PK without any quality or reason for it. If you genuinely want to play a game where PvP is the main focus? I do not suggest Armageddon. PK is a small part of it in a sandbox such as this, and it has its dangers and intrigue but I will say that ultimately PK should be an option out of many. I find anyone who goes about with the idea of PK in mind (hiring assassins or twinking themselves to that level) is highly unoriginal and far from entertaining.

MURDER is one word in that tagline. It is not the goal nor should it be. Your character's priorities come first and if that means PK? Then power to them!

The real problem just goes back to what Nanimo said. Player killing doesn't even feel like conflict. It's just too mechanical. Everybody is a happy-smiley shit-eater until someone goes against the grain and then suddenly the bag of tricks with all the ez pk tools come out. Rarely are players willing to accept any risk with their player killing

I'd love to see some actual goddamn fucking conflict. But it's usually just one or a handful of players picking off the easy targets (the players that are taking risks and are willing to play weak characters, or didn't know about whiran summon lol)

Then when you consider the above after watching some bullshit go down yet again, you come to conclusion that player vs player conflict in this game is kind of always a shit show.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Cind on October 08, 2018, 04:10:27 AM
I tend to leave myself open for pk opportunities because I'm a little too passive to kill someone myself without good cause, which seems to be hard to acquire... that and I tend to play weaker characters in exchange for Minecraft play and healing magick, among other, similarly-strengthed choices (this is in the days where mages hit softer than merchants.)

It just seems hard, to me, to have, much less seek out a good, solid reason to kill someone unless you are a leader or outright on a contract or witch hunt (for witches or others.) Its your leaders telling you who to kill, who you have to slip a cure into their inventory and then bloodburn, whose apartment you savage... a lot of it feels like its out of the player's hands. But, maybe I am playing the wrong kind of characters, with the wrong kind of personalities. I once had a witch whom it was just a damn good idea to kill, but possibly the gem meant that someone would be attempting to kill the Arm's property, also witch--- however, she never really skilled up, was obvious about it, and there were a lot of witches who knew that. The world was literally better off without her, and after two months I had to store because I couldn't get a plot with that going. So, I don't know.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Strongheart on October 08, 2018, 06:30:31 AM

The real problem just goes back to what Nanimo said. Player killing doesn't even feel like conflict. It's just too mechanical. Everybody is a happy-smiley shit-eater until someone goes against the grain and then suddenly the bag of tricks with all the ez pk tools come out. Rarely are players willing to accept any risk with their player killing

I'd love to see some actual goddamn fucking conflict. But it's usually just one or a handful of players picking off the easy targets (the players that are taking risks and are willing to play weak characters, or didn't know about whiran summon lol)

Then when you consider the above after watching some bullshit go down yet again, you come to conclusion that player vs player conflict in this game is kind of always a shit show.

Completely agree.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 07:17:55 AM
Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

It IS though. It HAS been for God knows how long.

http://armageddonmud.org/intro/what_you_know.php

https://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?rules


You may not like it, but murder, corruption and betrayal are the NORM on Zalanthas.


No it isn't. Because barely anyone plays it except to get their way.

No it isn't. Because I can play a character that is/does none of those things and get karma for it.

It's just a dumb marketing tool to bring in the thirteen year old edgelords. It has little to no bearing on actually what happens in the game. And I suspect the reason some players can't accept that is because they're attached to the nostalgia.

But it IS the norm, no matter how many times you personally play against the norm, it IS. Being able to play against the norm doesn't change the norm.  Player killing specifically not getting karma doesn't change the fact that it's normal in this realm.  You can't claim people barely use it and then claim a breath later that they use it too flippantly.

I find it hard to understand why, if Zalanthas as it *is* isn't the game YOU play, you appear really defensive and angry at the amount of murder your characters suffer through, encounter or witness.

We'll have to just disagree.  My experience with pk is one of the things that kept me in this game... and two of my characters have been pkilled while I was AFK.



Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: WithSprinkles on October 08, 2018, 07:56:42 AM
I think death and PK are important parts of the game.

However.

I also lean heavily toward the ideals that this is a game that is supposed to focus on story, lore, and character interaction. Too much death in an RPI, to me is almost the same as respawning again and again in any other game. (I'm dead! I'm back! I'm dead! I'm back!) I'd imagined that in games such as these, we were supposed to be immersing ourselves in the world and the stories of our characters, knowing full well that those stories will end, but that along the way, we'd have enjoyed it.

There is nothing wrong with the death or killing to get ahead or protect one's interests, but I thought that we were meant to take in the ENTIRETY of the game's tagline, not just one part. Focusing on 'Murder' and calling things harsh can sometimes lead people to smashing characters against their foreheads like beer cans. Or feeling like they are the rumpled can.

PK is not to be eschewed or shamed. Most of us enjoy it. I just think that it should be understood that players came to this game because they saw potential for political intrigue, which are also aspects of the game. 'Corruption and Betrayal' are the game's other two major taglines. It is no surprise to me that we have a good portion of the player base that wants to immerse themselves in those aspects of play.

One solution might be to explore ideas to join the two play styles. Both like to get their hands dirty, they often just have different methods. They also both lean on and rely on one another when they need certain things accomplished.

Story: One of my characters opened an apartment door to find someone looting it, so they closed the door behind them and fled. My character thought briefly of locking the door behind them to give them a better head start, but I decided not to because ICly my character wasn't the sort to do that to someone (others, hell yeah, and nailed it shut too) . It went through my head in an instant that the other character might have walked in to an open door and I could be trapping them, so even if it meant running and potentially having to deal with things later, I just slammed it. I knew that other character might dash out and try to harm mine or find them later to silence them, but I also didn't report it. Later on that person DID come looking -- and I gained a good, loyal (as far as I ever knew - this is Arm) person at my side. They explained why and it was because my character didn't lock the door.
Story Resolution: Allow yourselves to be vulnerable and take risks on being fair to potential antagonists.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 08, 2018, 08:03:31 AM
Do not mean to target you Vex or you ShaLeah! But I think you can agree that Armageddon is about the story, what you and others add to that story, and what experiences that story provides to we as players or staff or whatever the heck you may be.

A story revolving around real conflict and real risk with/against other players will always be the most memorable and fun.

PK provides the gut-punch a good story gives you now and then.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inks on October 08, 2018, 09:18:23 AM
Do not mean to target you Vex or you ShaLeah! But I think you can agree that Armageddon is about the story, what you and others add to that story, and what experiences that story provides to we as players or staff or whatever the heck you may be.

A story revolving around real conflict and real risk with/against other players will always be the most memorable and fun.

PK provides the gut-punch a good story gives you now and then.

+1. PK is cool and the whole reason the RP has meaning.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 08, 2018, 10:25:13 AM
+1. PK is cool and the whole reason the RP has meaning.

Other way around. The whole reason PKs have meaning is the RP. If the story isn't interesting, then neither are the PKs.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 08, 2018, 11:12:10 AM
I think what Inky wants would be much more attainable if there was not the class ceiling.

Politicing had minimal affect on the game world for Nobles because you can't be a senior noble or Senate member.

Templars are capped at Blue robes, Military PCs stuck at Sergeant, GMH, you will never be a head of a house or near there to actually make a real decision besides garrison captain.

To be clear I am not complaining, staff bust their fucking ass and have for years, and it it why I still play, but if there were options available for the non combat PC's to actually politic, in the real sense, I think a balance could be found.

However,

MCB IS the mission statement of the game, but it isn't just M.

I'm also writing on my phone so if this seems rushed or all over the place that is why
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 08, 2018, 11:45:26 AM
i thought aod could make lieutenant.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Alesan on October 08, 2018, 01:03:05 PM
This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: sleepyhead on October 08, 2018, 01:05:18 PM
This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?

No, I don't think so. All you have to do is take into consideration that your character would be surrounded by MCB and keep in mind what it would mean to grow up in a society like that. And then do whatever you want that makes sense in that framework. MCB wouldn't be as fun if EVERYONE was constantly doing it and no one ever trusted each other. :) It's all about playing in a world full of that stuff, not necessarily about doing it yourself.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 08, 2018, 01:19:17 PM
This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?

No, I don't think so. All you have to do is take into consideration that your character would be surrounded by MCB and keep in mind what it would mean to grow up in a society like that. And then do whatever you want that makes sense in that framework. MCB wouldn't be as fun if EVERYONE was constantly doing it and no one ever trusted each other. :) It's all about playing in a world full of that stuff, not necessarily about doing it yourself.

Yep.

MCB is meaningless without the contrast of its opposite. If MCB is the linework, the rest is the color and shading that bring the picture to life.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 01:50:09 PM
This is an interesting topic. I have a question.

If Murder, Corruption, Betrayal is the mission statement, am I playing the game incorrectly if I'm not pursuing all three on a constant basis?

Am I failing my mission in playing this game?

When I play characters, I just let them live their lives. I don't worry about looking for ways to MCB other characters. Is this not how other people play? Should I be actively focusing on MCB to make sure I'm playing the game correctly?

No. Murder, corruption and betrayal being normal doesn't imply that you HAVE to pursue it.  Your posing this makes me feel like you're experiencing the same thoughts I am on the subject, except about NOT pkilling.

I don't deem to tell people who play outside the norm that they're ruining the MUD. That they're causing people to stop playing like the against-pk faction does. The ones who don't play MCB? They're fuel for the norm.


This idea of offering the benefit of the doubt, or restraining yourself, is an OOC construct. Would the PC restrain themselves? Would the PC give the benefit of the doubt? In a harsh world like Zalanthas, it's possible, but I also think it's fudging the lines of IC and OOC too closely for my liking.

I give the OOC benefit of the doubt in certain occasions. Even when my PC is BEYOND real world justified for revenge I take the target into account, sometimes to my detriment.  Sometimes in game years pass before my character pulls that trigger against someone else.  Sometimes not. By far ANY hesitantion of mine is OOC. Truth is, in game, on Zalanthas? I don't need to practice restraint. My character can kill for any reason... even if she's just bored. Murder is normal there. Believe me when I tell you that that consideration I used to give will no longer be part of my play when I start playing again. 

However,

MCB IS the mission statement of the game, but it isn't just M.


The thread is about the M though and by the looks of it some players resent it and put an ooc spin on it that to me seems unjustified.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Alesan on October 08, 2018, 02:22:34 PM
No. Murder, corruption and betrayal being normal doesn't imply that you HAVE to pursue it.  Your posing this makes me feel like you're experiencing the same thoughts I am on the subject, except about NOT pkilling.

I'll admit, I posed this question knowing what kinds of responses I'd get, mostly because I wanted to draw attention to the idea that MCB is meaningless without its counterparts. I don't feel like I'm playing incorrectly when I play my characters. If I did, I wouldn't even be playing. So I don't think MCB should be considered the "mission statement" of the game. Nowhere in the documentation is it stated that MCB is the mission statement. Corruption is part of daily life. Betrayals and murder happen out of corruption and greed. It's a thing of natural progression in the story, not a goal of every character.

I have no other input on this thread. I just wanted to clarify this point. It's felt a couple times that MCB is being used as a big hammer against the discussions here, to the point where it started feeling a bit stifling.

I'm not sure what you mean about "except about NOT pkilling", though. Are you asking me if I actively avoid MCB?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 02:34:26 PM
It's just a dumb tagline.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 08, 2018, 02:35:41 PM
It's just a dumb tagline.

That ShaLeah came up with in a t-shirt thread, IIRC, which explains why she likes it so much! ;)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 08, 2018, 04:34:08 PM
It's just a dumb tagline.

Yeah, we plastered it all over the place and discussed it relentlessly for over a decade because it's a tagline that draws you in, but we want you to discard it as soon as you're in game.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 04:35:15 PM
It's just a dumb tagline.

That ShaLeah came up with in a t-shirt thread, IIRC, which explains why she likes it so much! ;)

I wish! Alas, it was in place wayyyy before the contest that took place 14 years ago.
It won the popular vote, you know.  People agreed. Fancy that... the players choosing something that repeats the mission statement as one of our walking advertisements. 

I still have the t-shirt.

The MUD still boasts that tagline.  (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,9525.msg95806.html#msg95806)


Here... let me fix it for you.

It's just a dumb tagline life on Zalanthas.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 08, 2018, 04:38:29 PM
The point is these things are not mutually exclusive. Tell your story, live your PCís life(until I take it, of course). And Iíll be living mine and telling my story (until Iím killed). PK is a seasoning on a greater dish. Some just enjoy it more than others and some are just allergic. So long as things are being exploited and Staff review determines the PKs are righteous, who cares? Stalking someone, climbing a building, settling onto a balcony, watching them spam craft in relative peace all while thinking and hemoting terrifying things until finally offering a room echo appropriate to what the victim would see before obliterating them. Then dealing with the corpse, the blood, picking into their apartment, changing oneís cloak and slipping off into the hallway within the building before skulking back to the shadowy alleys the whole time doubling back and looking over oneís shoulder/thinking and hemoting before returning safely in triumph only to wonder what mistake was made.. who saw it.. was I followed? Is quite the story to inhabit.

Happy to compare piles of kudos for great RP and kill scenes. Thereís far more happening under the surface than people imagine. Knowing Death walks the streets should help people realistically avoid traveling alone at night for example...

As for the tagline.. itís the theme of the game, love it or leave it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 04:45:13 PM
It's just a dumb tagline.

Yeah, we plastered it all over the place and discussed it relentlessly for over a decade because it's a tagline that draws you in, but we want you to discard it as soon as you're in game.

Kinda like a dumb tagline.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 04:50:04 PM
Yeah. MCB is kinda just a dumb tagline. In all honesty.

A mission statement it is not.

It IS though. It HAS been for God knows how long.

http://armageddonmud.org/intro/what_you_know.php

https://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?rules


You may not like it, but murder, corruption and betrayal are the NORM on Zalanthas.


No it isn't. Because barely anyone plays it except to get their way.

No it isn't. Because I can play a character that is/does none of those things and get karma for it.

It's just a dumb marketing tool to bring in the thirteen year old edgelords. It has little to no bearing on actually what happens in the game. And I suspect the reason some players can't accept that is because they're attached to the nostalgia.

But it IS the norm, no matter how many times you personally play against the norm, it IS. Being able to play against the norm doesn't change the norm.  Player killing specifically not getting karma doesn't change the fact that it's normal in this realm.  You can't claim people barely use it and then claim a breath later that they use it too flippantly.

I find it hard to understand why, if Zalanthas as it *is* isn't the game YOU play, you appear really defensive and angry at the amount of murder your characters suffer through, encounter or witness.

We'll have to just disagree.  My experience with pk is one of the things that kept me in this game... and two of my characters have been pkilled while I was AFK.

Nah you and other's are trying to sell me that this dumb marketing tagline is the reason players play the game. It's not even close.

And it's not even close to the norm.

Scroll up if you want to see why I actually think player killing is usually weak sauce.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 05:11:38 PM
Edited by staff:  Let's not recommend things that are explictly against the rules as a means to achieve something.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
(stuff)
Wow. You must get pk'd a lot.

staff edit:  removed post that was moderated
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 05:40:16 PM
Quote
Wow. You must get pk'd a lot.

Enough times to just be generally disappointed in players. I'll just keep adding to the list as I think of them.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Eyeball on October 08, 2018, 05:47:31 PM
It's just a dumb tagline.

Yeah, we plastered it all over the place and discussed it relentlessly for over a decade because it's a tagline that draws you in, but we want you to discard it as soon as you're in game.

I never signed on to it as the sole point of the game, and neither did many others I expect.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 05:49:41 PM
Quote
Wow. You must get pk'd a lot.

Enough times to just be generally disappointed in players. I'll just keep adding to the list as I think of them.

Let me ask you something... do you think a large percentage of your characters pkill deaths are ooc'ly driven or ic?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Medena on October 08, 2018, 05:57:07 PM
While MCB is definitely not a dumb tagline, neither is it a mission statement.  It is a statement of some of the major themes which help define ArmageddonMud and the world of Zalanthas.  If Arm had a mission statement it would be something more along the lines of "to create an immersive role-playing experience in a harsh, desert world".  Murder, corruption and betrayal all have a place in creating that world but if every player took it as their personal mission to carry out MCB, the game would be chaos.  I'm not anti-PK but come on, we can't all be running around constantly PK'ing.  It's good to have some long-lived characters who can help tell long term stories.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 05:57:22 PM
Quote
Wow. You must get pk'd a lot.

Enough times to just be generally disappointed in players. I'll just keep adding to the list as I think of them.

Let me ask you something... do you think a large percentage of your characters pkill deaths are ooc'ly driven or ic?

I think most players will say it's IC. I don't really think players are actually that capable of separating the two.

Usually what happens is that someone decides they're going to kill a character. And then they manufacture some IC excuse to get it done.

This is why I generally don't care what your IC reasoning was most of the time.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 08, 2018, 06:05:06 PM
or you say something to them that pisses them off in game and they kill you.

the fact that you suggest people should play with ooc friends makes me oh so disgustingly suspicious of you on so many levels. i don't like it, any more than i dislike the idea that you tell people NOT to take risks and NOT to associate with nobles and templars. avoiding negative interaction.


so basically, play in your own little sandbox and ignore most of the people in the game, right? except that completely destroys the whole point of everyone playing a game that can be at times collaborative, and at other times antagonistic. the world is brutal, the cities are run by sorcerers who clamped down with an iron fist, the templars in each city are corrupt, the soldiers are corrupt, the merchant houses are corrupt. the world runs on corruption every day. murder happens. if dying bothers you THAT much, send requests in to staff and ask if it was on the level if it seems super fishy, or - and this is one that might get tossed around a bit - find a mud that is not permadeath and won't punish you for making enemies in such an obvious fashion.

otherwise, you need to come to grips with the world you play in and accept that your death is going to happen, and it will not always be consequential in any way to anyone but yourself.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 06:15:29 PM
or you say something to them that pisses them off in game and they kill you.

the fact that you suggest people should play with ooc friends makes me oh so disgustingly suspicious of you on so many levels. i don't like it, any more than i dislike the idea that you tell people NOT to take risks and NOT to associate with nobles and templars. avoiding negative interaction.


so basically, play in your own little sandbox and ignore most of the people in the game, right? except that completely destroys the whole point of everyone playing a game that can be at times collaborative, and at other times antagonistic. the world is brutal, the cities are run by sorcerers who clamped down with an iron fist, the templars in each city are corrupt, the soldiers are corrupt, the merchant houses are corrupt. the world runs on corruption every day. murder happens. if dying bothers you THAT much, send requests in to staff and ask if it was on the level if it seems super fishy, or - and this is one that might get tossed around a bit - find a mud that is not permadeath and won't punish you for making enemies in such an obvious fashion.

otherwise, you need to come to grips with the world you play in and accept that your death is going to happen, and it will not always be consequential in any way to anyone but yourself.

Hey man. I'm not saying play this way.

But you'll probably agree that most players employ some mix of these strategies to avoid dying to other players.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 08, 2018, 06:16:43 PM
they all fall to me in the end.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 06:42:10 PM
Quote
Wow. You must get pk'd a lot.

Enough times to just be generally disappointed in players. I'll just keep adding to the list as I think of them.

Let me ask you something... do you think a large percentage of your characters pkill deaths are ooc'ly driven or ic?

I think most players will say it's IC. I don't really think players are actually that capable of separating the two.

Usually what happens is that someone decides they're going to kill a character. And then they manufacture some IC excuse to get it done.

This is why I generally don't care what your IC reasoning was most of the time.
Finally something we agree on.

It's my (probably unpopular) opinion that the ability to separate IC from OOC takes YEARS and most of us learn how to manipulate that.

Mine are IC. I don't question certain players but I question wayyyy more. I believe how WE put 2 and  2 together is what separates us.  I highly doubt that sorceror that killed my character while I was afk said to his real life buddy playing with him "Let's fuck ShaL over." My character happened to be the perfect pawn for their plot. I wasn't even mad when staff asked me for my GDB handle so the murderers could use it.  My disappointment at THAT death was ooc wayyyyy after the fact. But ICly it was the catalyst to MUCH roleplay.  THAT'S why I don't mind even shitty deaths.  Because one character's death is another character's scar or revenge. 

If it's done right.

The thing is though... that it's not the death that has to be done right, it's the life right up to that pk.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 08, 2018, 06:56:59 PM
The point is these things are not mutually exclusive. Tell your story, live your PCís life(until I take it, of course). And Iíll be living mine and telling my story (until Iím killed). PK is a seasoning on a greater dish. Some just enjoy it more than others and some are just allergic. So long as things are being exploited and Staff review determines the PKs are righteous, who cares? Stalking someone, climbing a building, settling onto a balcony, watching them spam craft in relative peace all while thinking and hemoting terrifying things until finally offering a room echo appropriate to what the victim would see before obliterating them. Then dealing with the corpse, the blood, picking into their apartment, changing oneís cloak and slipping off into the hallway within the building before skulking back to the shadowy alleys the whole time doubling back and looking over oneís shoulder/thinking and hemoting before returning safely in triumph only to wonder what mistake was made.. who saw it.. was I followed? Is quite the story to inhabit.

That doesn't sound like an interesting story for anyone other than the person experiencing the power fantasy.

I have had characters die in the game in all sorts of interesting ways that even a decade or more later stand out in my memory, sometimes moreso than even the life of the character. Fantastic deaths, shitty random deaths, private duels to the death, and public arena executions -- all interesting for the capstone they put on the character, and the ripple effects I imagined they had in the story of the game.

But sitting in an apartment spam crafting one second and dying the next would not be 'interesting'. It would be rage-quit inducing.

Quote
itís the theme of the game, love it or leave it.

You'll be playing alone sooner rather than later, with that attitude.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 07:12:59 PM

Quote from: Vox
itís the theme of the game, love it or leave it.

You'll be playing alone sooner rather than later, with that attitude.

Nah. He'll be playing with the ones who accept what this game was built on. That mission statement. 

Why can't players just play their character?  Allow those who live the norm to bathe in that blood and you can play whatever you want without crying conspiracy?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Shabago on October 08, 2018, 07:20:28 PM
Let's stop taking shots at each other and veer back towards an actual discussion, yes?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 08, 2018, 07:39:05 PM
Once again...IF you can't handle the idea that characters are temporary, stories are not fully under your control, that the setting of the game is conducive to strife, murder, underhanded deals, etc...then I have serious doubts about your ability to interpret the stories told within with any degree of enjoyment, and you may indeed want to find one that shares your view of the purism and importance of individual stories and plots over the setting.

Arguing that MCB is just a tagline is missing the forest for the trees.  I do not view it as a mission statement, I view it as an apt, summed up description of what people expect from each other in the game, not just player characters, but everyone.  I find the idea of completely dismissing it as just an advertising effort to be short-sighted and illogical; you don't draw people in with an expectation then insist that living out that expectation is a non-entity within the advertised object.  That's weird.

This is not a pure PK mud.  That much is openly and universally acknowledged.  The objective of the game is not to run around killing people.  However, as well-framed in the introduction to the game itself:

Quote
The world of Armageddon is known as Zalanthas. It is a harsh planet where only the fittest survive, and competition over extremely scarce resources causes constant strife, struggle, and bloodshed. Deserts cover most of its explored surface, and the great red sun can bring daytime temperatures well over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Most citizens lead lives of extreme hardship, struggling to survive and get ahead. Sometimes this is accomplished by means of banding together with others, especially powerful clans and Houses, or by forging friendships or alliances with powerful individuals. At other times, people survive by climbing over anyone who gets in their way, by cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise taking advantage of others. Many Zalanthan citizens survive just by keeping their heads down and hoping no one considers them either weak enough or threatening enough to target.

That is precursed by:
Quote
Armageddon is, first and foremost, a role-playing game. Roleplaying is central to the game environment and is not considered an option by the creators of the world. It is a requirement. If you do not want to roleplay, this is not the game for you. The game has a combat system, magick spells, and thousands of other features for added realism, but you must keep in mind that the only reason everyone is here is to have fun while acting out a role. The most important thing is playing your character according to their own personality in order to help in the creation of a realistic fantasy world.

and followed by:
Quote
Your character will face hardship often, and will probably even be killed, possibly at the hands of another player.

Quote
What does all of this mean? It does not mean that Armageddon is for people who revel masochistically in abuse. We have created this harsh world with the idea that the heart of narrative lies in conflict and dealing with hardship. We hope that players will find in the harsh, unforgiving reality of Armageddon a great deal of freedom in which to explore the narrative of the world and, even more importantly, the nuances of its characters and the stories played out there.

You need to accept that stories intersect in cooperative ways, and they intersect in violent ways, and violent ways are not a detriment to the game; they fit right in.  You need to accept that the death of a character does not negate the fun attained through that character or the benefit of playing it (or else I'd highly suggest you never own a pet, or enjoy any activity that may one day cease to become an option as an activity).

If all you can do is escalate to 'I'm leaving', or reduce the coexistence of roleplay and deaths of all sorts, the only reaction you'll ever get out of me is an eyeroll, because your supposition is that I have done injustice to you, the player, by acting to the best of my ability my character's role within the game.

This is not a player-story-submission committee where the only pertinent stories are the ones universally accepted by other players; in this setting, this world, there is very clearly a short end of the stick, and player characters are often defined by the measures taken, the experiences had, the losses suffered, and the personality attained in evasion of that short end of the stick.  Turning this into an attack on other players who don't show respect and leeway to your story that you think it deserves is unwelcome, because it is in itself exclusive of other people's struggles, motivations, and traits anyway.

I'd suggest your characters trust less, scheme more, and act with a fair degree of wariness at all times instead of depending on the false premise of safety because you don't think anyone should have a current-day casus belli to benefit from your character's end.  Through this, you meld more deeply with the setting and tell a better story anyway.

Quote
Let's stop taking shots at each other and veer back towards an actual discussion, yes?

I think the original topic is in good spirit, but ultimately lacking insight into the layering of stories and how that will, inevitably, lead to conflict, and thus conflict resolution.  I find 'poor roleplay' extremely rarely here, but find different interpretations incredibly common, and the latter leads to misunderstandings and accusations that are just as detrimental, if not moreso, than the things that prompted them.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 08, 2018, 07:59:11 PM
I find 'poor roleplay' extremely rarely here, but find different interpretations incredibly common, and the latter leads to misunderstandings and accusations that are just as detrimental, if not moreso, than the things that prompted them.

You could post this in a lot of threads. Well said.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 08:48:44 PM
A friendly reminder to be nice to each other and not recommend things that are against the game's rules as a means to achieve desired effect.

Kinda feeeeeeling like this thread has run its course, if it continues being a problem we'll lock it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 08, 2018, 09:31:05 PM
Arguing that MCB is just a tagline is missing the forest for the trees.  I do not view it as a mission statement, I view it as an apt, summed up description of what people expect from each other in the game, not just player characters, but everyone.  I find the idea of completely dismissing it as just an advertising effort to be short-sighted and illogical

I respectfully disagree.

I DO think of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" as a tagline, and NOT a mission statement. It's a great advertising effort, because people see in that line, exactly what they WANT to see in that tagline. Don't believe me?

I can easily see, within that tagline, "Love, Trust, and Loyalty", because, without those words, the tagline "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" has no meaning. Without love, trust, or loyalty, what is there to betray? What is there to corrupt? The tagline is EXACTLY an advertising effort, and a brilliant one, at that. Definitely NOT a mission statement.

That said, as I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I don't think PK is the problem. But I certainly don't want people thinking murder is the "mission statement" of the game. That's just fucking stupid. This is a ROLEPLAY ENFORCED game, definitively not a hack n' slash. It's about roleplay. I'd like that to stay at the forefront of the discussion, because that part isn't debateable.

But having a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" implies that the concepts of Love, Loyalty, and Trust, exist. Maybe those concepts should be spelled out a bit more for people in that opening tagline, for those who can't make that leap in logic.

Or, they could remove the aspects that imply the existence of some levels of Love, Trust, and Loyalty, changing it to "Murder, Murder, and Murder", and plenty of people will just quit.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 08, 2018, 09:34:54 PM
Quote
I'd suggest your characters trust less, scheme more, and act with a fair degree of wariness at all times instead of depending on the false premise of safety because you don't think anyone should have a current-day casus belli to benefit from your character's end.

Least safe places in the game:

Taverns
Apartments

If maximum paranoia is the only way to play, then the best strategy is to find a cave and sit in it, and never interact with another player except to sneak-hide out to PK anyone who might pose a threat.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 08, 2018, 09:52:49 PM
Quote
If maximum paranoia is the only way to play, then the best strategy is to find a cave and sit in it, and never interact with another player except to sneak-hide out to PK anyone who might pose a threat.

Or you could seriously consider writing a book about nonsensical hyperbole.  Like wtf is this.

Quote
But having a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" implies that the concepts of Love, Loyalty, and Trust, exist. Maybe those concepts should be spelled out a bit more for people in that opening tagline, for those who can't make that leap in logic.

...this is some serious evasion of what the point of these things is.  As I said, arguing whether it is or isn't just a tagline is missing the forest for the trees.  You do not make that a tagline as something ignored or a non-present entity.  You do not make that a common slogan of something where it is a non-present entity.  You don't make it a mission statement for something where it is a non-present entity.  You can argue that this phrase is whatever you want it to be, but it is affixed to the game in a way that describes what is in the game.  There is no inferrence anywhere that it is the only thing that exists.  There is no demand that it be the only thing that exists.

But it does describe things the expect in the world.  Not because you -can't- expect whatever three terms you decided on.  But because you -can expect these things- in the world around you.

I have no idea how this has gotten so twisted to where this is the approach of discussion because someone brought it up to point out that murder happens.  This is some serious weird shit.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 08, 2018, 09:59:08 PM
Quote
If maximum paranoia is the only way to play, then the best strategy is to find a cave and sit in it, and never interact with another player except to sneak-hide out to PK anyone who might pose a threat.

Or you could seriously consider writing a book about nonsensical hyperbole.  Like wtf is this.

I can safely say this is how I felt like playing the game after some of my shittier deaths.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 08, 2018, 10:03:08 PM
Quote
I can safely say this is how I felt like playing the game after some of my shittier deaths.

Then do so, if that's how you feel like playing the game, as long as it fits the role you create -for- the game.  But insinuating that this is the way the game must be played to fit into the game world because you're afeared of how you might die is seriously, again, a weird jump.  I don't think the majority of players would enjoy playing that game, which is why they don't play it that way, but they still play very aware of the fact that their character can die suddenly without saying they need to turn absolutely non-interactable.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 08, 2018, 10:06:01 PM
Quote
But having a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" implies that the concepts of Love, Loyalty, and Trust, exist. Maybe those concepts should be spelled out a bit more for people in that opening tagline, for those who can't make that leap in logic.

...this is some serious evasion of what the point of these things is.  You do not make that a tagline as something ignored or a non-present entity. 

It's not evasive at all, if you read the rest of my post. I'm in no way arguing that "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" shouldn't exist. I'm also not arguing for less PK, as I stated.

But some people ARE arguing that the existence of Love, Trust, and Loyalty shouldn't be a thing, and that's stupid. And someone should point out as much, which is what I'm doing. I have no problem with characters involving themselves in murder, corruption, and betrayal. But, you implied that all characters should, and I think that is faulty and misleading logic, which brings us right back to the fact that MCB directly implies the existence of LTL. And, as a consequence, players should feel comfortable playing a WIDE range of PCs, from naive, trusting, and honest individuals to shady, lying, back-alley cutthroats, based on their own stories and backgrounds.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 08, 2018, 10:15:05 PM
Then I attached intent to your post that wasn't there.  Sorry.

I would, however, ask...if you're playing naive, easy-target-like characters and -their- place in the world...is it truly worth backlashing over if they're actually targeted?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 08, 2018, 10:19:14 PM
Then I attached intent to your post that wasn't there.  Sorry.

I would, however, ask...if you're playing naive, easy-target-like characters and -their- place in the world...is it truly worth backlashing over if they're actually targeted?

I feel like you ignore who posts what, as, right now, you're arguing against someone who already agrees with you, and has stated as much repeatedly, throughout this thread. ;)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Majikal on October 08, 2018, 10:20:22 PM
City-based roles die to pk more often than anything else, guaranteed.
Hunters die to random Raptor #13548 more often than not.
Which one is more satisfying?

I'll take a pk for any reason versus my pc ending in storage from boredom/age or getting whacked by an npc. The game is way more fun when you stop worrying about the end of your pc. I get more pissed when I kick up a shitstorm of excitement for my pc and get whacked by a gith when I know for sure there were a handful of characters in the game that wished they had the satisfaction of cutting me into little pieces themselves.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 08, 2018, 10:22:50 PM
Well.  I think that's a little unfair to say, given the context of the posts just before.  Yours seemed to echo that sentiment, that MCB did not have a place in setting description, or was overemphasized as an arbitrary 3 word tagline alone.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 08, 2018, 10:26:54 PM
But some people ARE arguing that the existence of Love, Trust, and Loyalty shouldn't be a thing, and that's stupid.

Where? Quote it. Who? I haven't seen a single insinuation that love trust or loyalty shouldn't be in the world much less an outright statement they shouldn't be.  On the contrary it feels like the pro-alternative-to-pk faction is vying heavily that pk should be highly restricted and that furthermore it's NOT an intricate part of the game.

I'm not worried about staff restricting PK any more than they already do, oddly, so I'm not entirely sure why some are persisting in painting this a different color.  It's red. Like blood.  Like the sands.  That shit ain't going nowhere.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vex on October 08, 2018, 10:41:57 PM
i don't know where the fallacy that pk requires paperwork came from, but unless you're a sponsored role and you're already writing in reports, filing reports for a pk is not and has not ever been a requirement. it's NICE and appreciated when you do, but you do not have to.

Quote
A staff member sends:
     "Hello, any time you kill another player, staff would like to see a character report that details how and why it went down.  As you have killed 3 players this week, will be looking forward to these details."

If you kill a pc, staff want a report, ie, paperwork.

At the time, I thought it a waste of time, but after seeing some of the opinions here, I do see the need for them. Relevant, as of a week or so ago.

I disagree with that almost entirely. You are an experienced player, you know just how to play safely and survive. Not all do, and I can almost guarantee that you do not put yourself into ultimately fatal positions in the game world itself. Explore the places that are known for their dangers and such (the Grey Forest, Mantis Valley, etc.). In NO way is this game easy and it isn't PvP alone that is making players leave but I do believe it is a part of it when it is a PK without any quality or reason for it. If you genuinely want to play a game where PvP is the main focus? I do not suggest Armageddon. PK is a small part of it in a sandbox such as this, and it has its dangers and intrigue but I will say that ultimately PK should be an option out of many. I find anyone who goes about with the idea of PK in mind (hiring assassins or twinking themselves to that level) is highly unoriginal and far from entertaining.

Haha, you have no idea, who you're even talking to. Sit down, please.

Truth is, in game, on Zalanthas? I don't need to practice restraint. My character can kill for any reason... even if she's just bored. Murder is normal there. Believe me when I tell you that that consideration I used to give will no longer be part of my play when I start playing again. 

Well said, imo.

Quote
itís the theme of the game, love it or leave it.

You'll be playing alone sooner rather than later, with that attitude.

I think, he'll be just fine.

The game is at it's very best, when you're surrounded by enemies and it's kill or be killed. There are some people who want to play house, or live in a bubble, this much is obvious, but there are at least just as many, like I, and presumably like him, who clearly enjoy the game the most, when it's at it's most visceral and everyone is all in, until the bitter end.

We'll continue to be around, and be having a good time, with no regrets, as will all of the like-minded players, who accept the nature of the game for what it is.

Be it meticulous murder plot, or senseless ride by killing, death is the last fear and consequence, that players have to contend with. I feel, if something needs to be done, it's to preserve what risk and danger we've got left, and look for more to add atop it.

It's too easy, to live forever in wealth and comfort, in a world that is supposed to be desperate and dying.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 08, 2018, 10:46:10 PM
Well.  I think that's a little unfair to say, given the context of the posts just before.  Yours seemed to echo that sentiment, that MCB did not have a place in setting description, or was overemphasized as an arbitrary 3 word tagline alone.

In the bottom half of the post you only quoted the top portion of, you'll see that I did say that I wasn't arguing for less PK. I just wanted to clarify the tagline debate. That's all. I thought my stance on that was sufficiently clear from earlier posts in this thread, my apologies.

I'm in favor of permadeath and PKing as long as it makes sense for your character. Always have been. It's what brought me to Arm to begin with. I think a permadeath, full PK RPI mud is the height of imaginative RP aside from a tabletop game. It attaches meaning and risk to your actions, giving RP a "soul".

But I'm here for the character interaction. In other time periods of the game, I've felt like that sentiment was shared by a greater percentage of the people I met in game. It's entirely possible that we're experiencing an increase in "action" player archetypes, with a waning of "social" and "explorer" player archetypes, leading to a feeling by some that PK is a problem.

Essentially, I'm trying to relate with both sides of the argument, here. And I think that it's in the rest of the community's interest to do the same.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 10:58:02 PM
Quote
A staff member sends:
     "Hello, any time you kill another player, staff would like to see a character report that details how and why it went down.  As you have killed 3 players this week, will be looking forward to these details."

If you kill a pc, staff want a report, ie, paperwork.

At the time, I thought it a waste of time, but after seeing some of the opinions here, I do see the need for them. Relevant, as of a week or so ago.

There's probably about a 50% chance that we receive a player complaint about someone if they PK someone else.  The reports are, as much as anything, a way for the PK'er to head the complaint off at the pass and tell us why it was legitimate so we can resolve the complaint in an informed manner.

The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 08, 2018, 11:38:05 PM
I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

*flex*
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: seidhr on October 08, 2018, 11:49:23 PM
I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

*flex*

I LOL'ed.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 01:02:53 AM
The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

Read that again, all you who think it's an ooc racket.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 09, 2018, 01:46:51 AM
The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

I'm happy to hear this. I've never submitted player complaints for PKs, but considering they're so common, I may change my policy on that, just to make sure players continue to be held accountable.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: seidhr on October 09, 2018, 02:00:34 AM
Please don't unless you have a legitimate concern about the way it was done.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 09, 2018, 03:36:24 AM
Please don't unless you have a legitimate concern about the way it was done.

I mean, I don't know why my PCs were killed in 95% of the situations in which they were PKed. If questioning whether the intent of the PK was legit or not is a reasonable concern, then, like the aforementioned reasons to PK themselves, it's easy to have a reasonable suspicion that it wasn't RPed well.

I really think that some of the complaints about this could be dampened by implementing an automatic system that requires an input: Reason for PK? when a player is PKed. Enforce PK reports being turned in with a bit more fervor. Then, whatever staff reviews and closes the PK report could then input the details of that reason. 1 RL year later, players would recieve an automatic email from ArmageddonMUD revealing that reason.

I think it would do a lot, including:

1. Providing closure for players of old PCs, giving them more knowledge of their own story.
2. Providing insight into the motivations of others on an OOC level, helping to build trust in other players and in staff regarding the validity of PKing in general.
3. Reminding players who quit after that PK about Arm in general, potentially spurring them to return, once they understand what led to their PC being killed.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 09, 2018, 06:40:35 AM
I reported myself a couple of times for "PK for no reason." In both instances, it was a new player logging in for the first time with a new character, saw me in the tavern room with them, and immediately started swinging. The combat code had me swing back and the new PC was dead even before the soldiers arrived to whack them. I had no intention of killing anyone, either time. I had no interest in even fighting them, either time. But the "login, kill woman" thing gets kind of messy if your combat skill is high enough to one-shot someone before you can leave the fight (I don't think disengage was a thing at the time).

I think I reported TWO times in my years of playing, for PKing. Both because they were using OOC knowledge to arrange the kills. One was my character's death, one was someone else that I witnessed.

Other than that, I think the only time I reported a PK, was to vent about not having any visible roleplay. I wasn't questioning the death at all, only the scene. There was enough time for them to emote, or say something, or grunt, or really - anything other than just kill lizzie;get pack lizzie before the mantis head. I never expect to see really stellar impressive roleplay when my character is killed because it's an adrenaline moment and the killer's player is probably needing to just get stuff done and get away. So I'm okay with that, and I get it. But toss in a grunt or an emote that you raised your axe in the middle of it, so I know it's not automated, and I'll put it on the list of "cool death scenes."
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 09, 2018, 07:41:49 AM
Shy got attacked while laying on the couch at the Barrel. Just walked in and attacked.  Fled when the soldiers assisted and did it again.  I complained but I figured he was a noob.

Pkill scenes need not be like movie death scenes for me. I'm rarely surprised of my deaths.  I see them coming.  Sometimes I dodge them, sometimes I don't. 

Except the whiran summon drop into  nest of nasty things (which I didn't complain about). I didn't... see... that one coming.   Get it? Cause it was a whiran?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Rumor on October 09, 2018, 08:22:12 AM
Interesting thread, over all. I still stand by my initial post as it's how I feel about the gameworld and creatures that live within, but it's eye-opening to see so many people who aren't really interested in participating in one of the features of the games that literally drew me into it.

I will say this, and I believe this in all earnest, it is how you play the game that dictates how you die more times than it doesn't. I'm not saying you can't die to random murders or whatever. But, there's some extreme examples of how to avoid PK and I think there's far less extreme methods of achieving less pk interactions in your character's life without hiding away some where. I played a tailor who was a crime boss for 60+ days played time and face-to-face interacted with people who wanted to kill me very regularly. I intentionally didn't raise combat skills with this character because I wanted to see how involved I could be in life and death situations without determining the outcome personally, but instead see how influence and roleplay would dictate outcomes. What I found, 99.9% of the time, until the time I met with someone who didn't feel this way, was that playing an interesting, useful and contributing character more times than not can keep you alive. If you're annoying, fucking up all the time, causing trouble for others and creating unnecessary tension then you typically get killed. All of these characters deserve a place in the game world, but ultimately you decide how you're created and most of the times how you're killed. It's in your playstyle and choices.

Again, because I feel like someone is going to point out their anecdotal experience, I'm referring to the majority of experiences. Not the 10 times you've been killed randomly and walked away from the game or almost walked away. I'm talking about the hundreds or thousands of characters that were created with a concept in a mind and when those characters died, their player sat at their keyboard and said, "yep."

So I truly hope no changes are made due to the minority of experiences. I hope people continue to fill out pk reports and I hope players who die to other players and feel there was foul play follow up and report those issues. If it comes back that things check out or nothing was amiss, then you only have the options of reflecting on your choices, deciding on if you trust the staff and players you play with and in the end deciding how you want to spend your time. Very interesting thread and concepts discussed. Some strange distractions happening in here, but over all interesting. Thanks Bebop. :)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Brokkr on October 09, 2018, 12:19:22 PM
Best Practice:

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 09, 2018, 02:35:14 PM
there was i think one time where i really felt like a pk was truly undeserved, and it was when tuluk was still open, i was in the legions, we were in the partisan's rest part of the partisan's arena and i was sleeping.

"someone" came in, instakilled me while i was asleep. i sent in a complaint, and i don't know what closure came of that, but i know instead of a "denied" or "resolved" i got a nice check-mark next to my complaint with "approved".

so clearly something was wicked off there. if you suffer a pk like this, in a situation where dozens or even hundreds might see you die? then absolutely, file a complaint, something like that is ridiculous.


but to assume that everyone is being sketchy and pking wantonly and without good reason, and then going to send a player complaint for every single one? you're just going to be disappointed, 999,999 times out of a million.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 09, 2018, 02:40:40 PM
Rumor's Post has given me the opening to share this...

Let me preface this story with the statement, I will PK your PC if it further my PC's goals, if they have something I want, and will not give it to me, or because zalanthas is a harsh, cruel, unforgiving land where in the end, you cannot really trust anyone...

That being said: I made a PC once...Probably the best stat roll I have ever gotten. Every stat was perfect for that pc. He was a combat based character, and he was extremely OP and maxed after some time. Simple mundane. The only thing is, I decided, he is going to be a pacifist, in the sense I will not PK, during the time I came up with the concept. There were at least six pcs, I had at near death, and let live. Let me tell you, the shit and and things that those characters I let live went on to do, not only made -that- character's pc much more enjoyable, or difficult depending on how you look at it, but they created -Many- problems and story arcs for later pcs of mine and others.

From an OOC perspective it was nice to see how those PCs went on to further the story that is armageddon, even though letting one of them live resulted in the death of that pc, and equally gratifying that they were able to work with and work against future pcs.

Also from an OOC Perspective I found myself thinking, if I had just killed those assholes, character X Y or Z's projects would have been completed .

Summary: You are damned if you do and damned if you dont, so just create a role and do what is IC.


 
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 09, 2018, 04:03:40 PM
City-based roles die to pk more often than anything else, guaranteed.
Hunters die to random Raptor #13548 more often than not.
Which one is more satisfying?

I'll take a pk for any reason versus my pc ending in storage from boredom/age or getting whacked by an npc. The game is way more fun when you stop worrying about the end of your pc. I get more pissed when I kick up a shitstorm of excitement for my pc and get whacked by a gith when I know for sure there were a handful of characters in the game that wished they had the satisfaction of cutting me into little pieces themselves.

I can think of a few where I would have preferred the raptor.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vex on October 10, 2018, 01:59:15 AM
The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

What would staff consider, dumb reasons, and why?

I think, it can only be healthy to get it out, where people can get an idea of expectations, vs, their own view on what is and is not OK.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 10, 2018, 02:29:18 AM
i gave a pretty grand example in my little synopsis, but i guess i could go into more detail including my suspicions, and "if" that was the person, the way they did it and why was pretty shady.

i was in the legions at that time, playing a new recruit with a couple of privates who were showing me around, and we went out "hunting". i mentioned it was kind of odd for the legions to just be actively out hunting, since we had people like salarr (at the time, hunting ranks were a thing).

i mentioned i would ask the faithful lord about this, and i don't recall if i ever got the chance to bring it up - i doubt i did, but inside partisan's rest? dead.


i was killed for planning to ask the faithful lord if it was okay for us to hunt.



if they aren't the ones who did it? i have no idea, then, and that means the reason was even more stupid - they saw a sleeping guy in partisan's rest in a tabard and killed him in front of a toooon of virtual npcs.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 10, 2018, 03:07:05 AM
If by dumb reason you mean wholly unnecessary and taken place in lieu of dozens of other intriguing options.

Then yeah, I'd reckon about 80-90% of pk's are dumb.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 10, 2018, 03:24:12 AM
If by dumb reason you mean wholly unnecessary and taken place in lieu of dozens of other intriguing options.

Then yeah, I'd reckon about 80-90% of pk's are dumb.

I really wish I could PM you. Sort of interested in your perspective on things.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 10, 2018, 03:47:40 AM
Feel free.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: seidhr on October 10, 2018, 01:23:13 PM
The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

What would staff consider, dumb reasons, and why?

I think, it can only be healthy to get it out, where people can get an idea of expectations, vs, their own view on what is and is not OK.

Mostly just being irresponsible about it.  I don't really want to get into specifics, but in general if people send in a quick PK report and follow the guidelines Brokkr laid out in his "Best Practice" post about a page back, there aren't going to be any problems.

Nobody participating in this thread is that "one guy," incidentally.   ;)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 10, 2018, 02:46:35 PM
There's been a lot of feelings expressed here but it unnerves me a bit that it's seeming to go the way things often do.  A ton of pages and prose then kind of a staff consensus of well, nothing is wrong.

Are we going to discuss the coded part of my post?  How you can get killed for tavern sitting?  How there are no soldiers stationed where nobles hang out?  And how maxxed sneak and hide make it super easy to defy crim-code in broad daylight?  Or how poison is widely available now but the cure system seems a bit broken?  Or how support characters have no real way to defend themselves or any where they're remotely safe or where the Crim code might assist them?

The above reasons are why I feel the same is PK > RP a bit right now.

If a person uses common sense it shouldn't be easy to walk into any major watering hole and kill them without repercussion.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: seidhr on October 10, 2018, 03:03:50 PM
There's been a lot of feelings expressed here but it unnerves me a bit that it's seeming to go the way things often do.  A ton of pages and prose then kind of a staff consensus of well, nothing is wrong.

Are we going to discuss the coded part of my post?  How you can get killed for tavern sitting?  How there are no soldiers stationed where nobles hang out?  And how maxxed sneak and hide make it super easy to defy crim-code in broad daylight?  Or how poison is widely available now but the cure system seems a bit broken?  Or how support characters have no real way to defend themselves or any where they're remotely safe or where the Crim code might assist them?

The above reasons are why I feel the same is PK > RP a bit right now.

If a person uses common sense it shouldn't be easy to walk into any major watering hole and kill them without repercussion.

The code and mechanics of the game continue to evolve, slowly, over time.  Inevitably, players gravitate to things that work well - and yes, I think poison and stealth are currently those things.
 I do think that you point out some valid critiques of certain code aspects.  None of them are easy and quick fixes - but rest assured we are always discussing these things and the game (again, gradually) changes as a result.

From a gameworld perspective, we could drop a trio of half-giant soldiers in every bar, but that also cuts back on opportunities for every other type of crime and is awfully heavy handed.  At the end of the day, no PC should be immortal - even if you engage in no risky behavior.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Synthesis on October 10, 2018, 03:16:20 PM
The cure system is definitely a pain in the ass, now.

I feel like the only reason anyone has cures at all is because there are a few NPC merchants in game that still sell some of the legacy cures.

I can't even imagine how you're supposed to figure out the recipe for cures that aren't sold, and therefore you can't analyze to reverse-engineer.  Like...the cure for saltworm gas.  What am I supposed to do, make tablets out of the bazillion possible combinations, then go out and intentionally get gassed by saltworms to see which one works?  It's really absurd.

Also, heramide seems like it's way too common, for something that is essentially an instant win button vs. anyone without maxed-out defense.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 10, 2018, 03:19:51 PM
We don't need "a trio of half-giant soldiers" at every bar, that is hyperbole, but there should be more militia presence in the higher-end bars. Less soldiers in the Gaj, more soldiers in the Red's and Arboretum. I think it is an obvious oversight that the Gaj is more heavily policed than the higher-end establishments.

Not that it will save anyone if the assassin is good enough, but at least it provides a reasonable deterrent.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 10, 2018, 03:21:04 PM
 
There's been a lot of feelings expressed here but it unnerves me a bit that it's seeming to go the way things often do.  A ton of pages and prose then kind of a staff consensus of well, nothing is wrong.

Are we going to discuss the coded part of my post?  How you can get killed for tavern sitting?  How there are no soldiers stationed where nobles hang out?  And how maxxed sneak and hide make it super easy to defy crim-code in broad daylight?  Or how poison is widely available now but the cure system seems a bit broken?  Or how support characters have no real way to defend themselves or any where they're remotely safe or where the Crim code might assist them?
The above reasons are why I feel the same is PK > RP a bit right now.

If a person uses common sense it shouldn't be easy to walk into any major watering hole and kill them without repercussion.

The code and mechanics of the game continue to evolve, slowly, over time.  Inevitably, players gravitate to things that work well - and yes, I think poison and stealth are currently those things.
 I do think that you point out some valid critiques of certain code aspects.  None of them are easy and quick fixes - but rest assured we are always discussing these things and the game (again, gradually) changes as a result.

From a gameworld perspective, we could drop a trio of half-giant soldiers in every bar, but that also cuts back on opportunities for every other type of crime and is awfully heavy handed.  At the end of the day, no PC should be immortal - even if you engage in no risky behavior.

I was all for crim-code going away at night except for near soldiers.  However, making it so that all taverns, even nicer ones where nobles maybe spotted are the wild west is not correct code or RP wise.  Part of privilege is additional safety and protection from risks of the poor.  Taverns where you must be coded nobility to enter certain rooms having no guards or crim-code?  Make no sense.  No PC is immortal but being able to creep in, kill a noble and creep out in those places, makes no sense.

You wouldn't have to creep.  At this point you could literally walk in and walk out laughing.

Additionally, taverns would arguably be more crowded at night.  The streets no.  Taverns, yes.  If a support role character is using good common sense and not walking alone at night and not going to taverns where there are less guards it shouldn't STILL be super easy to just walk up and gank, gank a character that already has pretty much no defenses.  Aides and nobility should have access to the privilege their roles entail.  Currently, commoners can't use good sense and go to taverns with better security --- because there are none even though RP wise there absolutely should be.

From what I understand of how the code used to be, there are items that combined with max sneak and hide make you impossible to see.  You might as well have the invisibility spell.  Gotta love the Batman insta-disappear.  None of these things is conducive to good RP.

Also I agree with Synthesis.  Not only are cures not working and the poison skill super available, on top of that poisons are super easy to find and use IG now.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 10, 2018, 03:32:25 PM
Quote
Also, heramide seems like it's way too common, for something that is essentially an instant win button vs. anyone without maxed-out defense.

I'm not sure why it's as common as it is; a few years ago, it was being sold in a shop every reboot, but that was fixed.  It's pretty difficult to get, if I recall.

However, the reason I was in favor of changes was to make it easier to make 'rare' poisons noticeably rare and perhaps in non-potent forms that needed brewing to ferment them and mix them into their potent versions...at suitable risk to one's self.  That would make common poisons, the things that don't just take you out, the norm.

There's a 'weird' spot somewhere in the implementation that didn't make it work out that way.


As far as the soldiers thing, I'd agree with moving soldiers from bar to bar, but all it means is that you'll see people who are worried about PK (there seem to be a lot of them) all migrating to where-ever you put the soldiers.  So I don't think it's really a fix.  But I do disagree that it's in a state of no risk to the criminal; I play criminals, and I have to be extremely careful about my shit to not get insta-fucked up.  The Gaj is tremendously safe unless you are a griefer who doesn't want your character to survive the ordeal.

I think of 'character doing crime' in the city as very similar to climb checks.  Easy crimes, you're essentially climbing up; most of the time, even with failure, you aren't really punished that hard.  At the most, it's minor inconvenience and some lines of reaction that you type up that you can, if you wish, turn into a little mini-scene.  But as the crimes go upwards, so too does the risk factor.  When we're talking about killing PC's in the city proper...we're talking about a multi-room drop, where your climb check is probably at the most, advanced.  Failing has bad consequences.  Critical failure, where things just go wrong all over, -will- result in the death of your character.

Talking about it like there's 0 risk is not accurate; the risk is actually littered all over the place, and made moreso by active players.  Patrolling members of the Arm, i.e. players in the clan, can actually make a passive criminal's day turn real bad.  Stealth is powerful, but ultimately the only form of defense they really have against a stacked, imperfect system; used for offense, they are secondary if not tertiary skills.

However, when we changed hide to stick from room to room at the cost of having it switched to a before delay instead of after delay, I -did- warn that it was gonna cause people to complain.  The way it was, where self-movement took you out of hide, at least gave a way for vigilant PC's to notice their entrance before they tried to hide away.

There is a challenge of balance here; a lockdown on crime to promote safety is bad, and a complete failure of crime-stoppage is also bad, but I don't think we're anywhere near the latter.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 10, 2018, 03:43:17 PM
If the poisons are too readily available in the game, then perhaps you should find out who the distributors are and deal with them. I know first hand, getting Heramide and Peraine are difficult, Heramide more so. As characters DIE, via PK or Gith#152532532352352, the supply and demand imbalance should change. That being said, I think the longer you hold on to taints that are unused, if they do not, their ability to act as a taint should subside over time.

The cure code I do not even bother with. It it too much a pain in the butt to even begin to try and test out. And lets be honest, unless we are bringing in OOC info, if we test out a poison and the cure does not work and die, we should have to start over with the next character not knowing anything.  The old code made it easier to know what taints and combos went with what poisons. Now, while it is more realistic, I feel that the playability aspect of it is non-existent, unless you are using ooc knowledge gained over multiple characters.

To the point of PK in the taverns, The only tavern in Allanak that should always have guards posted there is the Arboretum in my opinion. And that should only be the case of House Rennik and the other noble houses are PAYING the AOD or Byn out of their coffers to have soldiers stationed there. The same should be said of the Gaj, Reds, and the bakery.

There will always be an imbalance in the game, and that is the point. While I do agree, poisons are fucking terrifying, It is good to always have that threat in the game. It ensures you are going to those curemasters and keeping them in business. Gone are the days of single player survivability. Everything, because of the new class system comes at a cost, and that includes your PCs safety against PKs.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: puella on October 10, 2018, 03:43:53 PM
Re: heramide & poisons.

1. Make heramide & other poisons decay, both when stored and also when applied to a blade.
2. Go through the stashes in the few clans that have the big stash of them and remove all but five.

Use it or lose it.  It'd make things a lot more exciting; some assassin gave me a tainted blade five years ago.  I don't have the poison skill to tell.  Is it still poisoned?  Beautiful.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 10, 2018, 03:45:34 PM
I'm a guy that likes assassins in general. They used to be unfun to play and skill up. And if you had the wrong stats, were kind of crippled. But now I wonder if the pendulum has swung a bit far in the wrong direction.

The cure system is definitely a pain in the ass, now.

I feel like the only reason anyone has cures at all is because there are a few NPC merchants in game that still sell some of the legacy cures.

I can't even imagine how you're supposed to figure out the recipe for cures that aren't sold, and therefore you can't analyze to reverse-engineer.  Like...the cure for saltworm gas.  What am I supposed to do, make tablets out of the bazillion possible combinations, then go out and intentionally get gassed by saltworms to see which one works?  It's really absurd.

Also, heramide seems like it's way too common, for something that is essentially an instant win button vs. anyone without maxed-out defense.

I'm pretty sure all the known recipes are out there. Characters have them and eventually they'll filter out to become more widely known.

Re: heramide & poisons.

1. Make heramide & other poisons decay, both when stored and also when applied to a blade.
2. Go through the stashes in the few clans that have the big stash of them and remove all but five.

Use it or lose it.  It'd make things a lot more exciting; some assassin gave me a tainted blade five years ago.  I don't have the poison skill to tell.  Is it still poisoned?  Beautiful.


They did it with spice and food. I suppose poisons (applied and object) should decay.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 03:54:35 PM
The poisons applied to poison 'do' decay. If you poisoned a blade, with time that blade will lose the poison sheen. The poisons in object form remain though.


Making the spice decay made my last character completely invalidate spice for anything, but recreation. As someone who was interested in 'actively' using warspices, I've written spice off completely, as being too hassle prone. The speed of the decay is considerable, the windows of efficacy too low, and all together too much hassle, for too little benefit. At these points, the only spice of use became thodeliv and krentakh for social scenes.

Heramide is hard to get, but not impossible. I think someone figured out how to get it and got powerful enough to overcome the difficulties. Something I warned right away will happen when the mage subguilds were introduced. Some guild combinations make you extremely capable to any kind of hurdles the world and it's creatures and terrain can ever throw at a person.  And once that happens, heramide can be produced as quickly as it respawns. So this isnt really a standard practice, it'll just last as long as the characters who are actively doing it continue doing it.

Stealth.
I keep hearing the opposites of this. Some say that HG militia can see people through maxed hide with 100% chance. Some say killing people is as easy as attacking someone, 1 round killing them, and then popping hide.  Are you guys speaking from empirical evidence, or are you guesstimating? I havent been privy to the southside tavern scene for the last 2 years, so I might have missed some significant changes, but I do recall crime code triggering in the Reds with suddenly 7 soldiers coming out of nowhere, some of them hidden or triggered by a script.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 10, 2018, 03:58:04 PM
The poisons applied to poison 'do' decay. If you poisoned a blade, with time that blade will lose the poison sheen. The poisons in object form remain though.


Making the spice decay made my last character completely invalidate spice for anything, but recreation. As someone who was interested in 'actively' using warspices, I've written spice off completely, as being too hassle prone. The speed of the decay is considerable, the windows of efficacy too low, and all together too much hassle, for too little benefit. At these points, the only spice of use became thodeliv and krentakh for social scenes.

Heramide is hard to get, but not impossible. I think someone figured out how to get it and got powerful enough to overcome the difficulties. Something I warned right away will happen when the mage subguilds were introduced. Some guild combinations make you extremely capable to any kind of hurdles the world and it's creatures and terrain can ever throw at a person.  And once that happens, heramide can be produced as quickly as it respawns. So this isnt really a standard practice, it'll just last as long as the characters who are actively doing it continue doing it.

Stealth.
I keep hearing the opposites of this. Some say that HG militia can see people through maxed hide with 100% chance. Some say killing people is as easy as attacking someone, 1 round killing them, and then popping hide.  Are you guys speaking from empirical evidence, or are you guesstimating? I havent been privy to the southside tavern scene for the last 2 years, so I might have missed some significant changes, but I do recall crime code triggering in the Reds with suddenly 7 soldiers coming out of nowhere, some of them hidden or triggered by a script.

Point 1: So very true
Point 2: Correct as well. Any long lived character can get any taint, much like anything else.
Point 3: Both sides are correct. I can say the OHK Backstabs do create a delay, and if no guards are around, you can pop a hide, but if there are guards around, you will not have time to pop a hide before you are caught. That is -not- a gestimation
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 10, 2018, 03:58:19 PM
The Gaj is tremendously safe

Yeah, this is backwards. The Gaj should be the dirty wild-west bar, the high-end establishments should be bristling with soldiers or even an "off-duty" Templar.  Who cares about policing the Gaj besides working a few grubby commoners over for drinking money bribes?


I like the idea of poison decaying, but make the timer a lot more generous than spice or food. Otherwise that swings the pendulum too far in the other direction of making poisons extremely rare/difficult to maintain a supply of.

I love that poison is more prevalent. I love that you have to trust your medic. (disclaimer: I was one of the first to test out the new cure code even before you could analyze the results and hey, I didn't die. I just looked at the helpfiles and was very careful. It's a puzzle that I enjoyed, and it even makes a bit of sense where as the old cure code was purely nonsensical.)

What I hate is that blowdarts are so easy to cheese. Same with throwing knives, especially when it doesn't make a whole lot of sense based on the location. At least if you backstab someone, you still have the risk of that after-attack delay before you batman away into the shadows like some ridiculous 80's cartoon.

If a character is playing it super safe and careful, then lure them out somehow. Use roleplay and cunning, not just the code.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 04:30:07 PM
wrong thread :P
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 10, 2018, 04:45:09 PM
I think -some- unused poisons should decay.  Not necessarily all of them, or their decay times should be really quite long.  Used poisons (i.e. on blades) should definitely at the least lose potency over time.

But I'd say the same for cures, in that light.

Maybe make brewed poisons in vials applicable to blades while stealthed, making importance in preparation or hiring someone good at preparation.

Still like the idea of capping all classes at jman/advanced poison and brew except for apothecary.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 10, 2018, 05:08:02 PM
Quote
Also, heramide seems like it's way too common, for something that is essentially an instant win button vs. anyone without maxed-out defense.
As far as the soldiers thing, I'd agree with moving soldiers from bar to bar, but all it means is that you'll see people who are worried about PK (there seem to be a lot of them) all migrating to where-ever you put the soldiers.  So I don't think it's really a fix.  But I do disagree that it's in a state of no risk to the criminal; I play criminals, and I have to be extremely careful about my shit to not get insta-fucked up.  The Gaj is tremendously safe unless you are a griefer who doesn't want your character to survive the ordeal.

It doesn't matter if people migrate to where soldiers are to avoid PK.  That's IG.  Aides and nobles should be sticking to taverns with more IG guards but as it stands right now at night the Gaj is safer than the Arboretum which is insane.  Like Delirium said - this is backwards. 
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 10, 2018, 05:36:25 PM
...okay?

I literally said do it and people would migrate to there, but I don't see it as a fix for what your concern was...because it wasn't stated as 'some people should die in bars, but not these people', it was addressing tavern violence as a whole.

At least that's the way I read it, so I was going into how the whole tavern safety thing is a weird problem because they should not be -safe-, but they are not -lawless- either.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lairos on October 10, 2018, 05:37:56 PM
I haven't personally witnessed a large stemming issue of poisons being too available, but I assume the new code surrounding them does make some more available or even able to possibly be made? I can't confirm that of course, but I can assume. I do know that cures are still a strong point for people which does make people nervous, which I think was part of the intention, but it still confuses me.

I think causing poisons on weapons to decay is cool, but poisons themselves is going to be hard to figure out and they are not easy to get for many people. I think it all boils down to the supplier at that point and how much they are bringing in to disperse into the thick of it.

Regarding crime code and not enough soldiers. I've heard complaints on both sides of this. I've seen threads of people saying crime code is too harsh and people can't even get away with small things and now I am reading a flip side to it saying there isn't enough. Focusing that down to PK only, it is not easy to PK someone in a tavern and it requires a good bit of effort to do and get away with. That being said, I have known people to be killed in the Gaj, not heard of it in the Arboretum once. I don't feel Taverns should be PK proof either, but as I said, even if there are a bunch of soldiers it won't fully stop anything. I see off duty soldiers in Red's all the time, but the higher end establishments, such as the Arboretum would only be there during a tavern patrol shift, but not a place where a soldier would go spend their pay and hang out. So yes, it makes sense that more off duty soldiers are in the Gaj, because that is where they hang out. The Arboretum has guards, but maybe the nobility don't want soldiers crowding them in their relaxation and they have their own guards for that very purpose. If it's the nobility that see an issue they should petition House Rennik or the City Ministry if they feel unsafe in the city. If its the commoners? Well, unless they are commoners with some pull, I don't see why anyone would care. As far as I am aware, the players in such as the AOD have patrols into such places for this very purpose. It doesn't help when numbers are down, but I don't think swarming every place with NPC soldiers is the answer either.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Derain on October 10, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
I have to agree I have never once seen someone PK'd in the aboretum. And the way it is actually does make sense.. As far as PKs in he Arboretum, hold my ale.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lostinspace on October 10, 2018, 05:53:43 PM
making poisons is possible, using them is considerably more difficult.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 06:03:49 PM
That's why I asked about empirical evidence. I think the problem is that people do not 'see' the soldiers and think that the place is unprotected. While in reality, it is very much not. I think people are sort of guesstimating here. Assassinations in Gaj is possible.  Assassinations in Reds. I've seen it happen, but never with backstab, never up front. A melee fight in the Red usually ends faster then a person can finish reading the text of the fight.

I guess if people think taverns are safe to PK they should give it a go and see what happens.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 10, 2018, 06:12:02 PM
You're right, there shouldn't be off-duty soldiers in the Arboretum. There should be off-duty Templars.

Mostly I hate that the Gaj is "super safe soldier central" because when I hang out there I want to feel like I'm hanging out at Mos Eisley.

Edit: to be clear, I'm arguing for some taverns to be less safe, and the higher-class establishments to be the ones you go to and feel cozy.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 10, 2018, 06:15:32 PM
Eh, I think that the doorman that you can't get past without everyone screaming 'TWINK' and 'ABUSE' is probably enough to keep it pretty safe.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 06:20:27 PM
You're right, there shouldn't be off-duty soldiers in the Arboretum. There should be off-duty Templars.

Mostly I hate that the Gaj is "super safe soldier central" because when I hang out there I want to feel like I'm hanging out at Mos Eisley.

Edit: to be clear, I'm arguing for some taverns to be less safe, and the higher-class establishments to be the ones you go to and feel cozy.

It's best not to have off duty templars there. Because Templars and nobility in general are too significant to ignore and continue on with your thing, when they're in the same damn room. Maybe lieutenants and captains, but not templars. Templars have their own tavern to get pissed drunk in.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vex on October 10, 2018, 06:23:58 PM
I'd be curious to find out, how many of these pcs who died, and their players are crazy irate about it, were involved in mudsex heavy relationships, when it happened? I have noticed, people who tend towards proxy romance, are also the people who completely lose their minds, when they (or, to a lesser degree, for some weird reason, their pretend lovers) die, and the fantasy bubble is taken away.

That, is a staff perspective, I would love to hear about.

I have to agree I have never once seen any pcs in the aboretum.

Eh, I think that the doorman that you can't get past without everyone screaming 'TWINK' and 'ABUSE' is probably enough to keep it pretty safe.

Same could be said, for burglars sneaking sofas and large bags full of armor, past apartment minders described as leaning in the doorway. How many times, have you snuck past, one of those, and never gave it a second thought?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 10, 2018, 06:24:31 PM
a) From people who aren't abusive twinks, sure.
b) I think it makes complete sense to be able to sneak past the doorman as long as you look like you belong.

Granted, I'm not sure how that code works or how foolproof it is against sneaky-types, but sneak/hide is pretty powerful stuff that can conveniently breeze past posted guards, narrow hallways, and furniture-less rooms, so I'm not really willing to rely on the good roleplay of others to keep an area safe. Plus, the times I have had a PC who would peek into the Arboretum, it was always empty. That is probably why nobody gets ganked there. Because it is empty. Probably because it is not safe (and because everyone hangs out at the Gaj and the Red's). And around and around we go.

I'm totally fine with everyone hanging out at the Red's or the Gaj, mind you. Congregation is good. I just happen to agree with Bebop on this one - having zero militia protection in the most high-class establishment in the city is ridiculous, and probably due to a simple staff/builder oversight when it was created. The Trader's Inn had soldiers, and the Arboretum is the Traders' replacement.

Dar: say that to the noble that would always hang out in the Traders'. Or any noble or templar PC that is in the Arboretum bar area. But if it bothers you, then just put the important Templar/Noble NPCs inside the Arboretum and the high-up off-duty militia captain NPCs in the bar area. That would make perfect sense.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 10, 2018, 06:33:30 PM
Eh, I wasn't calling it infallible or effective.  Kind of the opposite, really.  But I was saying that instances where you go through that step willy-nilly tend to come under close scrutiny by nature of the thing.

I guess I didn't really account for 'if you look like you belong', because...well.  I play elves. XD
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 06:34:59 PM
I'd be curious to find out, how many of these pcs who died, and their players are crazy irate about it, were involved in mudsex heavy relationships, when it happened? I have noticed, people who tend towards proxy romance, are also the people who completely lose their minds, when they (or, to a lesser degree, for some weird reason, their pretend lovers) die, and the fantasy bubble is taken away.

That, is a staff perspective, I would love to hear about.

Are you seriously asking staff to give you stats of how many people who died were involved in mudsex sessions? :D

I would also genuinely recommend you not to demean people's choices of gameplay. Do people want to play more drama/relationship themed stories? That's their prerogative and they have every right to do it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 10, 2018, 06:36:31 PM
a) From people who aren't abusive twinks, sure.
b) I think it makes complete sense to be able to sneak past the doorman as long as you look like you belong.

Granted, I'm not sure how that code works or how foolproof it is against sneaky-types, but sneak/hide is pretty powerful stuff that can conveniently breeze past posted guards, narrow hallways, and furniture-less rooms, so I'm not really willing to rely on the good roleplay of others to keep an area safe. Plus, the times I have had a PC who would peek into the Arboretum, it was always empty. That is probably why nobody gets ganked there. Because it is empty. Probably because it is not safe (and because everyone hangs out at the Gaj and the Red's). And around and around we go.

I'm totally fine with everyone hanging out at the Red's or the Gaj, mind you. Congregation is good. I just happen to agree with Bebop on this one - having zero militia protection in the most high-class establishment in the city is ridiculous, and probably due to a simple staff/builder oversight when it was created. The Trader's Inn had soldiers, and the Arboretum is the Traders' replacement.

Dar: say that to the noble that would always hang out in the Traders'. Or any noble or templar PC that is in the Arboretum bar area. But if it bothers you, then just put the important Templar/Noble NPCs inside the Arboretum and the high-up off-duty militia captain NPCs in the bar area. That would make perfect sense.

The other thing is that having the Aboretum guarded is that it increases the potential for RP and it is IG and canon for guards to be there.  So if it's more desirable for people in high society to hang out there it creates more possibility for noble and commoner interaction.  It also allows for player discrimination and a better emphasis on social class  warfare because that won't fit in there like half elves, magickers and other undesirables won't be allowed and thusly won't be afforded the privilege of the protection the muckity mucks have. 

I'm not anti PK.  But assassination should be work.  Following someone, catching them off guard.  You shouldn't be able to walk into super crowded watering holes (especially ones where nobles and Templars hang out) and be able to kill someone without coded consequences or being identified.  Especially not at night when these places would be busiest.  In the Gaj maybe you can shiv a bitch.  Less so in Reds.  Definitely not easily in the Arboretum ...and that should be reflected codedly.

In some ways taverns in the rinth are literally more safe than the Arboretum if you have the right connections.  Taverns are a place where plots and interactions that hook players happen.  It's important that codely their relative levels of safety be codedly correct.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 06:41:21 PM
I'm not anti PK.  But assassination should be work.  Following someone, catching them off guard.  You shouldn't be able to walk into super crowded watering holes (especially ones where nobles and Templars hang out) and be able to kill someone without coded consequences or being identified. 

Do you have any what so ever experience that this isnt the case already? I'm not being snarky, or baiting, I'm genuinely asking. Have Arboretum proved to be unprotected somehow to just simply walking in and backstabbing in the history of it's existence?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 10, 2018, 06:48:50 PM
Yeah, I didn't want to convolute what was being discussed but uh...assassinations are not easy unless circumstance just lines up in your favor.  Unless you don't care if you survive it or not.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 10, 2018, 06:57:06 PM
Assassins are extremely difficult unless you shadow someone into an apartment. Or you've twinked up enough to know you can backstab them and instakill (which for some reason doesn't trigger the guards).

You have no idea how many hours I've spent hiding in a tavern WAITING for a target to quit talking and go somewhere I can stab them, just to have them walk ONE ROOM AWAY and quit out. After I painstakingly spent weeks figuring out which apartment they had, who their friends were who would miss them, etc. And watching laboriously while hidden as they type something one every eight minutes because they're playing from a fucking phone. Or only to have someone come in with master scan and immediately spot you.







Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 10, 2018, 06:57:43 PM
It's taking every fiber of my being not to be sarcastic at this moment. But I've been playing since 2004 yes I have experience with P K on both sides of PK. Someone doesn't need to get killed in the Arboretum anytime soon for what I'm saying to be relevant.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 10, 2018, 07:02:38 PM
Arboretum as a tavern have not been around long, Bebop. Maybe six years? I dont think it 'ever' had an assassination performed there. Not yet anyway.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 10, 2018, 07:14:26 PM
Cool, I'm gonna roll up in there and assassinate someone to prove an already obvious point! Who wants to be my pincushion?!

Oh wait, nobody hangs out there. I WONDER WHY.

This has been a failure of the sarcasm restraint program. Now rebooting to friendly helper status.

I remember when it was built. When it was first implemented, there was a door object that remained closed at all times, to keep out the rif-raff. Now, there is not, because people complained that it was not easy to do a drive-by look and see if there was anyone to interact with. As a consequence, the place is way less secure than it was intended to be. All you have to do is think about it logically. No militia security there is an obvious oversight that should be corrected, and hopefully will.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 10, 2018, 07:17:41 PM
Also, outside of a random dwarf griefer, not a lot of hits go down in bars. I've heard of one in the past six months, and that was pretty much just the guards not triggering on the backstab, as well as no crimcode.

Now I HAVE successfully killed people in the backrooms of Red's, but the getaway has to be very, very good in order to pull that off. Half giant guards teleport through closed curtains and you've literally got to run past a bunch of guards to get to safety. A bunch of guards.

The Arboretum, shit, you'd have to see someone USING it before you could kill them in there. I don't remember the last time I walked by and looked north and saw someone.

It is easier to shadow someone into a clan compound and gank them then it is to pull off a hit in a tavern. Assuming the person you kill in the compound has the keys to the gate.

Most people get killed in an apartment because there's no crimcode. Pure and simple. Pkillers are not griefers. We don't want to lose our characters just to kill yours. And the vast majority of the time, I am not even interested in why you're going to die. Someone paid to have you die. The player killing you is probably just the knife being delivered.

ALSO, there's the vnpc world. I have had, after I committed a murder up on the rooftops, some random fucking mobile you walk by a thousand times summon the Jade Sabers to arrest me. I think if you do get someone in the Arboretum, you can probably expect that sort of shit to happen to you as well.

I would never, ever murder someone on the tavern floor, whether it's the Arboretum or the Folley. It's just too dangerous, both IC and OOC.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 10, 2018, 07:26:32 PM
I don't expect much of the whole 'soldiers' debate to actually shift much, but I -would- like to say...personal security in public spaces?  Protection from assassinations?

*COUGH* HIREGUARDS! *COUGH*

Seriously.  I loved playing bodyguards, when there were actual concerns about it (I haven't felt that concern in a long time aside from mid-conflict plot where I usually sat down in public at my own acknowledged risk).  That is not demeaning the point made or even refuting it, just saying this sounds like a pretty golden place where the wealthy could ease their own mind!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Hauwke on October 10, 2018, 07:27:53 PM
You could hire another player to be your guard and it could be interesting. The problem with that is that your new PC guard cant do anything without. eing killed for it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 10, 2018, 07:34:05 PM
You could hire another player to be your guard and it could be interesting. The problem with that is that your new PC guard cant do anything without. eing killed for it.

A guard is going to make me think twice about going for the kill. I don't know if he has a high scan and might see me while I'm snooping around. I also don't know if he's just as knowledgeable about how to escape crimcode as me.

You want the best fucking guard you can hire to protect you from assassins? Hire an assassin.

"Hi, I'm Lord Fancypants. Yes, I have this badass NPC guard following me around, but also look over there ... see that dodgy fuck dressed in rinther gear and wearing all the climbing gear? Yeah. Him. The one with one eye and a dueling scar across his lip. His name is McMurderpants and his job is to stand over there and look for any other dodgy fuck coming in here. Don't even question that goo dripping off his shiv. It's his own secret blend of seven herbs and spices."

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 10, 2018, 07:37:23 PM
I get that we should try and be realistic with our pks. I get that maybe some murders lately were a bit more swift and public than the usual "we can't find soandso's mind and it's been 3weeks we should check their apartment" norm we kind of got used to as more acceptable but if we're going to nitpick on assassins then it's only fair to play devil's advocate and remind people playing nobles that maybe they should be hanging out solely where the rich people can lounge in lavish.  I get it.  Sometimes you wanna slum. Sometimes you wanna walk among the plebs and say I'm here! Bow to me! Entertain me!

What I'm trying to say is that this can, and should, be handled ICly.

Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Pay for that guard
Lead an in character coup for Rennik to hire more guards.
Get the ministry of war to provide escorts to your favored!
Make peace with that murderous highborn!
Pay the templars to murder the criminal factions!

Most of these ooc restrictions people are suggesting by far are ... ooc meta gaming in favor of the pacifists or sore losers.
Some suggestions aren't ridiculous tho. I dig watching the fervor.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 10, 2018, 08:15:11 PM
Hiring guards doesn't activate the crimcode.

It's treason to hurt a noble.

Tavern where nobles and templars hang out as well as their aides?  0 soldiers
Gaj where the riff raff goes?  2 - 3 soldiers.

This makes no coded or IG sense.  We're not talking about guards ATM.  There is also an extremely limited playerbase.  We are talking about unrealistic code that would allow someone to attack someone in the Aboretum in plain sight without activating the crim code.

That makes no logical sense.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 10, 2018, 08:17:20 PM
a) From people who aren't abusive twinks, sure.
b) I think it makes complete sense to be able to sneak past the doorman as long as you look like you belong.

Granted, I'm not sure how that code works or how foolproof it is against sneaky-types, but sneak/hide is pretty powerful stuff that can conveniently breeze past posted guards, narrow hallways, and furniture-less rooms, so I'm not really willing to rely on the good roleplay of others to keep an area safe. Plus, the times I have had a PC who would peek into the Arboretum, it was always empty. That is probably why nobody gets ganked there. Because it is empty. Probably because it is not safe (and because everyone hangs out at the Gaj and the Red's). And around and around we go.

I'm totally fine with everyone hanging out at the Red's or the Gaj, mind you. Congregation is good. I just happen to agree with Bebop on this one - having zero militia protection in the most high-class establishment in the city is ridiculous, and probably due to a simple staff/builder oversight when it was created. The Trader's Inn had soldiers, and the Arboretum is the Traders' replacement.

Dar: say that to the noble that would always hang out in the Traders'. Or any noble or templar PC that is in the Arboretum bar area. But if it bothers you, then just put the important Templar/Noble NPCs inside the Arboretum and the high-up off-duty militia captain NPCs in the bar area. That would make perfect sense.

The other thing is that having the Aboretum guarded is that it increases the potential for RP and it is IG and canon for guards to be there.  So if it's more desirable for people in high society to hang out there it creates more possibility for noble and commoner interaction.  It also allows for player discrimination and a better emphasis on social class  warfare because that won't fit in there like half elves, magickers and other undesirables won't be allowed and thusly won't be afforded the privilege of the protection the muckity mucks have. 

I'm not anti PK.  But assassination should be work.  Following someone, catching them off guard.  You shouldn't be able to walk into super crowded watering holes (especially ones where nobles and Templars hang out) and be able to kill someone without coded consequences or being identified.  Especially not at night when these places would be busiest. In the Gaj maybe you can shiv a bitch.  Less so in Reds.  Definitely not easily in the Arboretum ...and that should be reflected codedly.

In some ways taverns in the rinth are literally more safe than the Arboretum if you have the right connections.  Taverns are a place where plots and interactions that hook players happen.  It's important that codely their relative levels of safety be codedly correct.

Here is my issue. No one has died in the Arboretum. More people have died in the gaj than in the Reds..So I am confused on how the Arboretum is not safe?

Nobles:
1. If you want to be 98% PK Safe, from all undesirables should host people in their estate.
2. If you want to be 75% Safe, go to the Arboretum
3. If you want to be 50% Safe, go to the Reds
4. If you want to live life on the edge, and jump right in without protection, go to the Gaj.

In all of the above scenarios the nobles should have their personal guard with them.

Commoners:
1. If you want to be 98% PK Safe, Marry into a Noble house, and follow the above steps

Assassination should be work, I agree, however, since the code is not robest enough to have a person in silks, quietly, walk up, stab you in the lung and walk away without drawing notice, we have to suffice with Backstab, which makes a huge scene, even though codedly, depending on how it is played out, should not. Backstab is"
Backstab                                                       (Melee Combat)

   This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent, be it an animal or a humanoid. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level."

To me if you successful backstab someone you should not be wanted, you should have the option to be able to successful get away and leave them to succumb to their wounds (and stay unwanted), fatal or not OR continue to engage, draw notice and successfully finish the job(Get wanted) if your critical strike did not.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: tapas on October 10, 2018, 08:43:10 PM
Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: sleepyhead on October 10, 2018, 09:36:41 PM
I've personally seen a character attacked in the Arboretum. I am not sure if it was a staff-animated NPC or a PC, however.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 10, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.

That's because you have to EARN the mover and shaker status.  Most don't live long enough to get to that point.

It IS possible.  Skill, money, luck and lots but lots of favor from LOTS of factions.

The atrium should be teaching this but this is a thread about PK, not the (im)proper use and training of noble aides.

Hiring guards doesn't activate the crimcode.

It's treason to hurt a noble.

Tavern where nobles and templars hang out as well as their aides?  0 soldiers
Gaj where the riff raff goes?  2 - 3 soldiers.

This makes no coded or IG sense.  We're not talking about guards ATM.  There is also an extremely limited playerbase.  We are talking about unrealistic code that would allow someone to attack someone in the Aboretum in plain sight without activating the crim code.

That makes no logical sense.

1) Hiring guards gives the victim a fighting chance. It -does- activate the crim for guards to go the attacker.
2) No. It's not. Treason  is against the city state.  Attempting to overthrow the government. It's treason to hurt a Templar, maybe, but not regular noble.
3) The Gaj is where the criminals are, that's where the law should be.  Take a walk around the NOBLE quarter... count the soldiers.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.  [jeopardy theme] okay good.  Now..  but ShaL, you say, they're a GATED AND GUARDED quarter we should have more soldiers near the (ONE) uber rich place(s?!?) to insure their safety!!! and I gently remind that THE noble establishment is guarded by a bouncer that keeps the riff raff and is literally down the block from HIS temples where soldiers would come bursting in. That median commoner bar nobles go to for plebeians entertainment has guards walking through and at least one in the antechamber.  Usually two.

Again... this could ALL be dealt with in character.  This isn't an ooc problem.  It's an ic one.

Good pkillers that get away with it are an in character problem to deal with.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Aruven on October 11, 2018, 01:09:23 AM
Tapas, I played an aide role where it was everything you listed.


Shal, I say, the law of Allanak is pretty clear on this matter.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 11, 2018, 05:17:04 AM
Shal, I say, the law of Allanak is pretty clear on this matter.
Yep. Murder is against the law.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 11, 2018, 06:30:44 AM
Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.

Aides who are "used properly" by their employers DO work behind the scenes, organize plots (character, not player), broker deals, and are generally the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice, you are a socio-political creature, who has little need for personal combat skills save perhaps the very basic self-defense skills. If you're GOOD at what you do, you won't be a target until much, much later in your career. There's an exceptionally good chance that someone will kill you, no matter who you are, including your own boss, in any clan, in any unofficial group, or as an independent, anywhere in the game.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 11, 2018, 11:43:48 AM
Shal, I say, the law of Allanak is pretty clear on this matter.
Yep. Murder is against the law.

ShaLeah, I suggest reading the "Laws of Allanak" rumor board post.

"Striking one of noble blood" is treason for a commoner.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 11:44:44 AM
-It is Treason to kill a noble peer.
-It is a common crime, punishable by death, to strike a noble (as a commoner).

read board 4

Why the difference? A noble can't kill one of their peers, it is still against the law for them to do that. Although they can kill someone significantly lower in rank. And obviously against the law to kill a noble that is higher rank than you, or for a commoner to kill a noble.

A noble could strike another noble.

Crimes that are Treason are against the law for Nobles. Thanks PCs that tossed out Treason for every petty crime for the clarification.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 11, 2018, 12:19:42 PM
I stand corrected. It is indeed listed under "common crimes" and specifically noted as punished with death.

But it's not just "against the law", as per ShaLeah's response, which seems to suggest a lesser severity of the crime.

So, if I'm reading this right, it is treason for a commoner to KILL a noble, but it's a "common crime" to simply strike them. But you get executed anyway!

Or is it still a common crime, because they're commoners, and only nobles can commit Treason, and Templars commit High Treason?

Obviously all of the listed High/Treason crimes would result in execution for a commoner, but is the subtle implication that commoners can't commit treason? They're not worthy enough to even register as having committed such an offense? Because if so that would be pretty cool.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Brokkr on October 11, 2018, 12:46:38 PM
I mean, all those Treason and High Treason things are still against the law for a Commoner.

But for a Noble or Templar to do them, they are essentially working, actively, against the city or Highlord.  That sort of betrayal is what makes something treasonous.

Who cares about the vermin?*  It isn't like they are given anything to betray!

*Except the vermin that work for the Highlord in the AoD. I wouldn't suggest attacking them, even as a noble. It might be considered an attack on the City, rather on the vermin themselves.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 11, 2018, 01:00:48 PM
Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.

Aides who are "used properly" by their employers DO work behind the scenes, organize plots (character, not player), broker deals, and are generally the fancy aba behind the power.

The good nobles I've known seem to be pretty content with sitting on the COUCH and doing all the deal making on their own with The Way.

Quote
In practice, you are a socio-political creature, who has little need for personal combat skills save perhaps the very basic self-defense skills. If you're GOOD at what you do, you won't be a target until much, much later in your career. There's an exceptionally good chance that someone will kill you, no matter who you are, including your own boss, in any clan, in any unofficial group, or as an independent, anywhere in the game.

In practice none of these things matter if you arn't permitted the basic AUTONOMY to do any of it on your own. In practice my characters just ended up getting into dumb shit like not-serving-tea-the-Atrium-way or wearing a kadian sold garmet that was 'northie because it featured lace' or speaking aloud instead of using The Way for 90% of my communication. Or using the wrong wording when speaking to nobility. And a lot of dumb garbage.

And if my character is told that they're just a Way relay station or a delivery person, then I'm just going to retire and join the BYN on my next character.

It's got nothing to do with how GOOD you are and is probably more dependent on having good players around you than any role in the game. And further, no. I don't think there's a higher natural risk to just getting merc'd anywhere in this game than as an aide.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Delirium on October 11, 2018, 03:05:35 PM
Sounds like playing an aide and dealing with the intricacies of social and political RP isn't for you. That's cool. I, too, prefer chopping things up with bone swords. I've had a grand total of one PC in the Atrium and I stored that PC, because it was not my cup of tea.

It's also possible you weren't trusted with the important stuff.  Maybe they were testing you and you failed.

That said, if a leader (any leader, really) isn't delegating to their employees, they're missing out on the best part of being a leader.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: WarriorPoet on October 11, 2018, 03:19:32 PM
I prefer getting pk'd over getting my mount ticket stolen. Every time. It hurts. It tastes like shit and ashes. But I am always going to app a new character immediately because I love it.

Bring the violence.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 11, 2018, 03:20:56 PM
Thanks for the redirect to topic WP!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lutagar on October 11, 2018, 04:42:45 PM
"this role is bad for these reasons"
"you're just bad at the role"

reminds me of my school days when not liking the popular game inherently meant you were just bad at it

also:

the code needs to stop rewarding the first person that instigates to violence, while backstab and archery are a thing knee jerk murders aren't only to be expected but are entirely rational
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Namino on October 11, 2018, 05:05:45 PM
the code needs to stop rewarding the first person that instigates to violence, while backstab and archery are a thing knee jerk murders aren't only to be expected but are entirely rational

I would argue the code punishes quite heavily the person who instigates violence depending on how the violence is instigated. This all really comes down to the punishing delay mechanics that the combat code of armageddon is founded on. Opening with a raw kick or kill puts you in such a long delay that you're going to be sitting there for ages and your quarry is going to either run or have ample time to pull a heramide knife on you. The code does reward the instigator, however, if they open with an instant win button -- heramide being one of those. Basically the code right now drives players with a desire to 'win' confrontations to find the instant win button dejure rather than anything that could possibly lead to a protracted fight.

The reason people avoid protracted fight is because either:

 A) your target wants to run away and the second you're in delay they either need to be dead or almost dead already or afflicted with a status that prevents them running or they're going to get away because you're frozen in time, helpless, because spam flee is uncounterable unless they're prone or dead by your AoO on the way out.

B) your target wants to fight and by the time you're suffering from combat delay they also need to be either dead or badly crippled, because you being in delay and the other guy not allows him to act unfettered. In that scenario, given the popularity of OHKOs in Armageddon, if you didn't open with a OHKO of your own, guess who's about to get a face full of heramide knives or arrows from the next room after a flee-shoot fest?

The combat code doesn't reward instigators. It rewards strategies that decide the battle instantaneously because the delay mechanics makes everything impossible to manage after that point. The 'meta' of armageddon really comes down to delay managing your opponent and yourself. If you put yourself into delay you better freaking do it in a way that stops the other guy. People who are willing to instigate (and thereby put themselves into delay) generally feel like their OKHO dejure is going to work, which might lend to the illusion as the offensive party winning often. But striking the first blow if it doesn't instantly kill your opponent simply leaves you in delay and at the mercy of a return instant-win stroke.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lutagar on October 11, 2018, 05:29:22 PM
snip

it's been RL years since i've had someone try to instigate a PK on me without a OHK

and it's almost always because:

a) they're a dumb newbie
b) they're extraordinarily dangerous maxed twink gods that will reel lock you forever

So yeah, you're not wrong, but the player base is so painfully aware of the fact that (successful) PKs without a OHK opening or a locked apartment are almost unheard of.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Narf on October 11, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
snip

it's been RL years since i've had someone try to instigate a PK on me without a OHK

and it's almost always because:

a) they're a dumb newbie
b) they're extraordinarily dangerous maxed twink gods that will reel lock you forever

So yeah, you're not wrong, but the player base is so painfully aware of the fact that (successful) PKs without a OHK opening or a locked apartment are almost unheard of.

I got mugged once a few months back without a OHK. I'm 98% sure the mugger just wanted to spar.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Namino on October 11, 2018, 05:38:09 PM
snip

it's been RL years since i've had someone try to instigate a PK on me without a OHK

and it's almost always because:

a) they're a dumb newbie
b) they're extraordinarily dangerous maxed twink gods that will reel lock you forever

So yeah, you're not wrong, but the player base is so painfully aware of the fact that (successful) PKs without a OHK opening or a locked apartment are almost unheard of.

I got mugged once a few months back without a OHK. I'm 98% sure the mugger just wanted to spar.

"This is a mugging. Now etwo your weapon and nosave combat."

The mugger brandishes his wooden sword in one hand.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 11, 2018, 07:05:57 PM
i killed a guy in the desert. with a sword. with no poison. there were no locked doors, there were plenty of places to run, i wasn't a "twinked out reel-lock god". i got the drop on him and killed him because i used other tactics to ensure that escape from me would be difficult. not impossible, but certainly quite difficult.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 11, 2018, 07:26:47 PM
I mean, you can also just try bashing someone. There's a reason we have the bash skill.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Namino on October 11, 2018, 07:44:24 PM
I mean, you can also just try bashing someone. There's a reason we have the bash skill.

Boy do I have a log for you.

To answer more thoroughly, bash is a trashcan tier opener. This is my personal opinion but it is definitely rooted in experience. If you succeed a bash, you are standing, your opponent is down, and you are both delayed [though your delay is slightly less]. If you fail a bash, you are prone, delayed, and your opponent has zero delay whatsoever. In short, being the victim of a bash is less detrimental than being the instigator of a failed bash. Having had master bash fail four times in a row on a shorter non-warrior class... yeah. Don't rely on bash. It's a coinflip with the consequences stacked against you.

Edit: I will concede that this is not considering HGs. If you're big enough to counter bash braxat, then nothing I say holds weight in that scenario.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 11, 2018, 07:49:45 PM
Try training bash above low journeyman
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 11, 2018, 08:24:46 PM
i have never used bash to succeed a pk.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Dar on October 11, 2018, 08:34:38 PM
Heh. I imagine the number of deaths of seasoned PCs due to a succesful bash from a spider, or a rinthi npc is in the thousands.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 11, 2018, 08:59:15 PM
Thank you, Kankwhisperer.

https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0
 (https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 11, 2018, 09:11:35 PM
Thank you, Kankwhisperer.

https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0
 (https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0)

Bahaha! I had to watch this several times. Thanks for the chuckle.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 11, 2018, 09:32:41 PM
Sounds like playing an aide and dealing with the intricacies of social and political RP isn't for you. That's cool. I, too, prefer chopping things up with bone swords. I've had a grand total of one PC in the Atrium and I stored that PC, because it was not my cup of tea.

Nope. I played with Alesix's Borsail back in the day. (Not knocking this player. Infinite respect.)

But anyone who says there is a layer of intricacies or veil over the under workings of politics in this game should be regarded with intense suspicion. Apart from some pretty inconsistent social faux pas someone might step into. It's just some leader on the couch using their quantum text messanger to chat freely with anyone from templars to elven members of the criminal underclass.

Quote
It's also possible you weren't trusted with the important stuff.  Maybe they were testing you and you failed.

Nah. My character was trusted and supported by her noble. And my character even stayed loyal even after she was nearly poached by a higher tier noble too. The problem was some poor play on the part of an adjacent veteran noble that staff gave a continuous hand wave to. And some other players that were somehow able to guildsniff her as a unmanifested nilazi.

Oh and the next player I played in the Atrium. And the leadership there was picking fights with my character over some pseudo psychological bullshit and asking questions out loud instead of waying them.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 11, 2018, 09:38:06 PM
Thank you, Kankwhisperer.

https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0
 (https://youtu.be/N184a23mbp0)

Bahaha! I had to watch this several times. Thanks for the chuckle.

You're welcome!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lutagar on October 12, 2018, 01:32:42 AM
I mean, you can also just try bashing someone. There's a reason we have the bash skill.

bash is a dumb meme skill that only has value in the 'rinth

it requires both you and your opponent to be on foot which almost never happens outside of cities, no one but rukkians and elves have any business being unmouted

if you do it in a city then enjoy being ganked by 200 hg soldiers while you try to recover from the delay
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Cind on October 12, 2018, 03:20:06 AM
-It is Treason to kill a noble peer.
-It is a common crime, punishable by death, to strike a noble (as a commoner).

read board 4

Why the difference? A noble can't kill one of their peers, it is still against the law for them to do that. Although they can kill someone significantly lower in rank. And obviously against the law to kill a noble that is higher rank than you, or for a commoner to kill a noble.

A noble could strike another noble.

Crimes that are Treason are against the law for Nobles. Thanks PCs that tossed out Treason for every petty crime for the clarification.

This is badass. In our modern world, we don't realize that most people were essentially either tools, taxable assets or obstacles to the 1% for most of history. Even Arm slavery is a different bag of tricks compared to what was going on in America a couple hundred years back. There were whites (and maybe some blacks) back then, for example, who believed that slaves weren't capable of the same level of love as whites were--- I've never heard someone in Arm say something like that about slaves, especially since the process of becoming a slave is vastly different in the game, and isn't dependent on the same fulfillment conditions as American slavery was, and latter-day European slavery. In an instant, one can become a 'possession' or 'a free person' and this seems to be the main distinction from my usually indie commoner eyes.

The established law also explains why people are complaining about every pc commoner aide and servant of a noble House getting ganked every few months. There is everything to gain and nothing to lose from killing the servant of your rival--- save, perhaps, the worst case scenario being losing an exceptionally skilled assassin in a botched attempt that does not take the life of the target. Killing in Arm is pretty brutal, though, in game room where the assassin would be expected to try to take down the target.

Especially since a Fale noble who has killed seven of Lady Fancy Oash's aides is more likely to be rewarded than anything, I think? Nicer quarters, more power in their House, more likely to get what they want. Correct me if I'm wrong on this point--- I've played almost no noble House roles, and don't remember how their world works, which is usually vastly different from the common sphere.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 12, 2018, 02:14:19 PM
The evolution of a noble's aide is often hilarious.

Meek and obsequious and polite to everyone right out of chargen, and then as soon as they get their cloak they often turn into a raging asshole to everyone else. Not all of them go through that transition, but so many of them do. I especially love the ones who sit in the Gaj and ignore the pissing, vomiting, brawling emotes but turn their nose up at the man in the dirty cloak sitting next to them.

Awhile back I had this one character, who had been pretty decent, suddenly come into the bar and start sneering at everyone. "I'm an aide now", is the reason. And I just couldn't help but start snickering because I knew that literally a few hours before one of my crew had killed the other aide which gave him the job opening.

I love that aides complain about being killed. I imagine the pawns on a chessboard feel the same way.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 12, 2018, 02:49:49 PM
I love that aides complain about being killed. I imagine the pawns on a chessboard feel the same way.

Close the thread, we have a winner.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 12, 2018, 03:07:40 PM
I love that aides complain about being killed. I imagine the pawns on a chessboard feel the same way.

Close the thread, we have a winner.

This thread is quickly losing track of the original point which was intended to be a macro look at PK not a micro one.

1) This is a game.  Be creative.  Keep in mind there is a limited sandbox.  Challenge yourself to RP out events instead of constantly resorting to the almighty PKill if it doesn't make the story better.

2) Code should not be slanted towards a hack and slash game, and should infact be slanted towards RP and the story.  Including, allowing support characters, and high society characters with common sense to survive in appropriately populated areas, or at least for there to be some recourse if there is an immensely public attempt (successful or no) on their life in such areas.

No one is saying PK should go away.

I am simply imploring players to employee some creativity to deepen the story and also for the code to be looked at where it fails to accurately represent the game world. 

This smug discourse on aides and bites of hearsay about how "one time this or that" aren't reflective of the game as a whole or profound and are indeed completely pointless, actually. 

Nor do we "have a winner" because this isn't a competition.  In fact, you need to take whatever level of politicking and sarcasm you enjoy in the game and remove it from the GDB discussion with actual people.  It really doesn't belong here and it's counterproductive.  Thanks.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 12, 2018, 03:42:04 PM
I love that aides complain about being killed. I imagine the pawns on a chessboard feel the same way.

Close the thread, we have a winner.
Nor do we "have a winner" because this isn't a competition.  In fact, you need to take whatever level of politicking and sarcasm you enjoy in the game and remove it from the GDB discussion with actual people.  It really doesn't belong here and it's counterproductive.  Thanks.

I just thought it was clever and wanted to pump the post up a bit. I like chess.

But to contribute further than just praising wit, I think that the whole matter is all very subjective. There is a little bit of full-on disagreement in this thread, but mostly opinions landing on different places within a scale of:

PK makes RP better -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PK ruins stories

Anyone who plays armageddon is somewhere on that line. I happen to be very far to the left, because I like rp'ing violence, and I like the rp associated with people trying to kill me. PK has kept me in armageddon. I have sent kudos to those who have pk'd me, and kudos to those I have pk'd, when appropriate. I also respect that everyone isn't me, so I try to respect what they might enjoy, but mostly I just try to respect the rules of the game that I like.

We will never have everyone landing on the same place on the pk scale, so we have staff who get to determine how much room we get on this scale for acceptable play. If it were me, I would allow, even encourage players to go further to the pk side of the scale, and let the blood more freely. But it's not my game, and I'm not the only player, so I try my very goddamn best to work within the confines of the range that staff has set, based on the feedback they provide, and enjoy my very many PC's (180, they all get killed).

Being a human is frustrating when you expect other humans to think like you. So don't expect them to.

Murder is beautiful.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 12, 2018, 04:06:34 PM

Ah, Bebop ... in a collaborative world ... you have as much control over the ending of your character's story as you do over the direction a thread is going to take.

Which is to say very fucking little.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 12, 2018, 04:21:22 PM
Part of the fun in the game in for me is, I never really know if someone I meet wants to kill me or not. I think that's AWESOME.

Sometimes, a PC might wanna be a psychopath that just goes around killing folks because they are insane, and thats alright. Once said lunatic is identified, its up to the other characters in the game to eliminate them. Sometimes, like others have mentioned, your PC might be killed for reasons you don't know, and thats okay too.

I do believe that staff is right about wanting a reason at least for killing folks, especially if you want to play a psycho murderer. You should have that in your bio or background, and they are not asking for an entire paper, or even paragraph I bet, just a one liner of why....

Edit: Moderated my own post because I realized I posted something that derailed this thread and is apparently too touchy to discuss here. Sorry.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: boog on October 12, 2018, 04:23:31 PM
But the docs literally say men and women are equal. Racism and classism are the only isms I can think of off of the top of my head that should exist.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: evilcabbage on October 12, 2018, 04:24:49 PM
sexism does not exist. racism based on skin color does not exist.

racism based on whether you're human or an elf does. that's the end of that discussion. sexism is unnecessary in this game when there are plenty of other ism's that we can rely on, like "filthy elf" and "stupid stump" and "disgusting breed".

women in game are capable of the same feats of strength, intelligence, toughness, and mobility as men, of the same race. that will not change. it should not change. that is how zalanthas is.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: boog on October 12, 2018, 04:27:08 PM
What he said.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 12, 2018, 04:33:26 PM
I don't think we need to keep on driving the 'PvP good' point any further because I haven't seen it come under actual attack in awhile now.  I will just note that most people are already trying to liven up their story in the game through whatever means they have and can think of.

I'm not -refuting- your point or arguing with it, BUT...
Quote
But the docs literally say men and women are equal. Racism and classism are the only isms I can think of off of the top of my head that should exist.

It's important to remember that not every person naturally conforms to that.  It's the baseline of society, but there are deviances based on this or that or whatever.  Sexism doesn't exist in the system, women are regarded as completely capable of doing what men can.  But there may be women out there who still hate things about men, or men who hate things about women, or insecure men & women who have weird reactions to their insecurity, and etc.

That's been my take on it for awhile, which allows me to both explain anomalies without getting into 'You best fix yoself' mode with the opposing player, while also trying to reinforce the norm to the best of my OOC ability without having to worry too hard about when I make a mistake or misinterpret something.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: boog on October 12, 2018, 04:46:59 PM
Oh, sure. But it definitely should not be the norm and I think your way of handling it in game is stellar.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on October 12, 2018, 04:47:34 PM

Ah, Bebop ... in a collaborative world ... you have as much control over the ending of your character's story as you do over the direction a thread is going to take.

Which is to say very fucking little.

(https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/edgy-gif-11.gif)

Sexism IG should be a different topic.  This thread has run it's course.  Staff please lock?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lairos on October 12, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
This thread has gone back and forth on several different subjects. PK and its place, RP over PK, coded protections from PK and "safe" places to try and not be PK'd and others in between. At the end of the day, I think staff does a good job of watching over this and keeping players accountable for their PK. I'm sure bringing it up to players like it has been here can provide different ideas that maybe they can utilize over PK, if applicable. I'm not one personally to always go straight for the PK and tend to give ways out. Us players are given control of that story along with the ability to determine if our character would do something or not which is exactly how it should be. There are always consequences for your actions IC if your caught as well.

I personally don't feel anyone, other than staff and sometimes not even then, should be able to judge to tell you that your character should have done something else other than PK. Often their are more plots that stem from PK's even if the PK stops other plots. I am not arguing that there are circumstances where other things can be done other than PK because there are circumstances where that is the case. I do think giving the players the benefit of the doubt that other measures have been taken or tried (if possible) have been done.

I know some people have been jaded from people not even trying to RP during intense scenes or trying to run when it doesn't make sense to get away from those scenes. On the flip side even trying to give them a scene where they end up being pk'd instead. This tends to leave characters, or even sadly sometimes players themselves, not giving chances so they don't get away. I'm not saying that is right either, but if we are looking at things as a whole, I would said that is a huge factor as well in why people tend to go more towards that direction over other options.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on October 12, 2018, 04:55:22 PM
This thread has gone back and forth on several different subjects. PK and its place, RP over PK, coded protections from PK and "safe" places to try and not be PK'd and others in between. At the end of the day, I think staff does a good job of watching over this and keeping players accountable for their PK. I'm sure bringing it up to players like it has been here can provide different ideas that maybe they can utilize over PK, if applicable. I'm not one personally to always go straight for the PK and tend to give ways out. Us players are given control of that story along with the ability to determine if our character would do something or not which is exactly how it should be. There are always consequences for your actions IC if your caught as well.

I personally don't feel anyone, other than staff and sometimes not even then, should be able to judge to tell you that your character should have done something else other than PK. Often their are more plots that stem from PK's even if the PK stops other plots. I am not arguing that there are circumstances where other things can be done other than PK because there are circumstances where that is the case. I do think giving the players the benefit of the doubt that other measures have been taken or tried (if possible) have been done.

I know some people have been jaded from people not even trying to RP during intense scenes or trying to run when it doesn't make sense to get away from those scenes. On the flip side even trying to give them a scene where they end up being pk'd instead. This tends to leave characters, or even sadly sometimes players themselves, not giving chances so they don't get away. I'm not saying that is right either, but if we are looking at things as a whole, I would said that is a huge factor as well in why people tend to go more towards that direction over other options.

Agreed.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: boog on October 12, 2018, 04:56:15 PM
^ True.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Feco on October 13, 2018, 09:43:37 AM
I'd just like to add that I like playing in a world where dying suddenly, maybe for as much as a pair of boots, is a possibility.

To me, this game is about little shits fighting under the bootprints of vicious tyrants.  Some of the little shits like to think they're better than the other little shits, and the world never gets better, because they're all concerned with getting to the top of the stomping pile.

I've committed wanton PK.  I've also not PKd when I could in order to make things more interesting.  Sometimes, however, it just doesn't make things more interesting than a good, vicious fight and murder, or a surprise head smashing.

This is an RPI and we have a responsibility to each other to play in service of a story, but I think the uniqueness of Armageddon stems from its brutality.  I'm here to chop mothafuckas up with bone swords.  I want my stories violent, gritty, generally hilarious or ridiculous, and oftentimes too short.

If we're undergoing a shift in our player population, I suspect it doesn't have anything to do with our content, but rather with the medium.  I'd rather continue to embrace Armageddon to the end than try and change what is at its core.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 13, 2018, 10:06:26 AM
I'd just like to add that I like playing in a world where dying suddenly, maybe for as much as a pair of boots, is a possibility.

If we're undergoing a shift in our player population, I suspect it doesn't have anything to do with our content, but rather with the medium.  I'd rather continue to embrace Armageddon to the end than try and change what is at its core.

This made me think, and connect this thread to the 'Estranged Veteran's' thread.

Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 13, 2018, 10:27:41 AM
I'd just like to add that I like playing in a world where dying suddenly, maybe for as much as a pair of boots, is a possibility.

If we're undergoing a shift in our player population, I suspect it doesn't have anything to do with our content, but rather with the medium.  I'd rather continue to embrace Armageddon to the end than try and change what is at its core.

This made me think, and connect this thread to the 'Estranged Veteran's' thread.

Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

THIS is one of the reason I've pulled away OUTSIDE of the ooc reasons.

Pkilling, not knowing which enemy will strike first, killing those you hate or worse, killing those you love, are the hardest of lessons on Zalanthas.

The state of PK is in the eye of the beholder.  If the vocal majority were to accurately be indicating the feelings of majority of the players there is absolutely no question that we think...

Murder is beautiful.

We realize not everyone agrees, maybe instead of asking what the state of PK is we should discuss if it's possible. IS there is a way to avoid being pkilled outside of playing an iso tent owning loner?

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 13, 2018, 11:40:07 AM
Of course there's a way to avoid being PKed. Get killed by a carru instead. Or a mantis. Or a bahamet, or mekillot, or raptor, tregil, gith, gurth, greth, geth, NPC soldier, NPC raider, NPC elf, the shield wall, the silt sea. Or store.

Moral of the story: Each and every one of your characters will, at some point, cease to exist. You are welcome to have them die off to the environment, or store them. But many of us find it infinitely more fun for our characters to die because someone thought they were important enough to kill.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 13, 2018, 11:41:39 AM
It's also possible to die of old age once your endurance bottoms out.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 13, 2018, 12:14:05 PM
IS there is a way to avoid being pkilled outside of playing an iso tent owning loner?

Owning a tent might get you killed.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 13, 2018, 05:57:19 PM
There is a way to avoid getting killed. Don't play an easy target.

A lot of people here are talking up their pk game right now. But I'm still pretty sure they don't ever target the fifty day dwarf warrior. Or the desert elf that could retaliate with 20+ heramide arrows.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Shalooonsh on October 13, 2018, 06:01:02 PM
Solutions, not barbs, people.

You know who I'm looking at.  This thread still has the chance for continued productivity. 

Keep it civil, folks.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vex on October 14, 2018, 12:41:48 AM
A lot of people here are talking up their pk game right now. But I'm still pretty sure they don't ever target the fifty day dwarf warrior. Or the desert elf that could retaliate with 20+ heramide arrows.

You'd be wrong.

It may be difficult to grasp, but some people live for the challenge. You may see that mul warrior, and run back to town. There are people who will see, that same mul warrior, and decide, they're going to take him down, and fuck Lady Borsail for the trouble.

You'd probably live longer for running, but you won't have half as much fun.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 14, 2018, 01:12:51 AM
Sure that sounds great. Do I believe you? Not really.

And muls are kind of an off case. High risk with high incentive.

Templars? Dwarves? That ranger with maxed o/d?

I'd love it if players threw themselves at these characters more often. So hey, if you're actually putting your ass on the line, I'm all for it.

But the PK's I see are just the easy ones.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vox on October 14, 2018, 02:34:42 AM
But the PK's I see are just the easy ones.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Harmless on October 14, 2018, 02:50:22 AM
I have let this thread evolve for a while before posting

I have been here active since 2007

I have bout 10 PKs in that whole time tops and several indirect PKs/PK assists (cred is average)

I have been PKed maybe 10 times. I have stored a lot more and died to monsters the other times.

I have played >50 characters, stopped counting.

I have had the bloodlust once or twice way back when, and I admit I no longer do. I once leapt at the chance to get kill after kill when I once had a well rounded assassin, got about 5 kills with this character who I admit was rather 2-dimensional. That character worked in a criminal crew and almost every kill were ones my character was asked to do. Every PK generally had at least a solid hour of (h)emotes, thoughts, Way or in person conversation or planning behind them.. but not always visible to the victim.

I have RPed scenes where I directly warned the victim they were treading in dangerous territory and vaguely suggested they would be punished and then I killed their character later.

Every PK i documented in reports, often I wished up but not always, but every PK gets a report after and some had a report beforehand to describe the plot in advance.

I have never received a player complaint for PKing.

I probably never submitted a complaint for being PKed, though I did complain about my very first character (back in like 2004) being PKilled (I honestly had barely skimmed the docs and thought I could trust a city elf I had just met as a half elf, hah). Since then I don't remember being the victim of super shitty PK.

I have instead sent kudos to my killers at times if I thought it was done particularly well

All that said.. I agree with Bebop. As soon as the chance to get a kill is available it seems people leap at it. Before I learned my lesson, when I played my one successful assassin, there might only be hours from the time the notion of a PK even was made to its execution, even if the target was rather important or well connected, which now feels very rushed to me in hindsight.

 I remember feeling kind of sad and disappointed when I learned my then boss had killed a whore she had hired within 1 or 2 RL days of hire and just dumped her body on the pile... not much of a plot there. It didn't dawn on me right away but I soon learned the joy of a little more restraint.

In general the act of PK is not fair and obviously the idea is stack the odds in your favor. It is very very hard to avoid being killed if someone with the means has set their mind to it -- the only time I seem impervious to being PKed is when I play elves. I once survived 5 PK attempts from the same attacker with the same elf and later grew bored and stored. The key was good agility, defense, and parry skills, and cures.

My point is that I have been through both sides, I have been assassins, thugs, aides and mages, and PK has dotted the experience throughout, and regardless of what shit anyone in this game may have to say about me, I still feel like the game is bloodthirsty and that people could stand to think a bit more creatively, especially with killing soft targets off such as aides. I am entitled to my opinion and it is only as valid as any other poster here. I used to be different, and though I understand the bloodlust, I no longer have it. It doesn't interest me to kill senselessly, but I don't mind if I stumble into being PKed either.

Now, for specific points

1. Poison is OP and I agree with nerfs to it. I have yet to branch brew since the changes but based on current supply and demand, I do not agree with any nerfs to it.

2. Delay management and one hit kill tactics have been the norm for ages. Stealth has been the dominant technique for ages. It used to be that powerful stealth killers were very very hard to train without metagame twinking. More and more they are easier to train; particularly certain combinations of key skills now do come in easy class packages without painful branching efforts (though arguably at a cost of lower caps, etc). People are learning the game and as staff have said the power balance shifts. It will shift eventually back to making stealth kills require more patience and then people will again complain that it is too hard to be an antagonist... pendulum effects. I don't worry over it but something that controls the poison economy primarily with the brew changes we are trying to learn is a good idea.

3. I have raged over BS like public tavern kills by fresh out of chargen PCs. I do feel squishy PCs should be viable and reducing silly gank kills which really feel more like code abuse should be a priority for staff. I generally agree with most of Delirium/Shaleah/Bebop's points.

4. I have never enjoyed seeing or hearing about a PK that I didn't feel had good reason. Sometimes I had no idea what the reason was... more often than not, the reason seemed very flimsy to me or there were serious logical flaws to it. I still don't send complaints, but I do hope that all PKers do submit reports (it isn't bad to do that, at all, so to whine about submitting a brief report is to basically disrespect an RPI environment). In other words, without the 360 view that staff get, I am not in much of a position to criticize other people's PK habits, but I have many times wondered if the rules and principles I tried to keep to are being enforced.

5. Finally there is absolutely a place for love and companionship in Zalanthas. To those in this thread who made solid points about how companionship in the face of danger makes perfect sense, thank you.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Harmless on October 14, 2018, 02:53:51 AM
But the PK's I see are just the easy ones.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Neither of you are the player who I know killed a 50+ day former byn sergeant, and I dunno what your experience is, but this kind of e peen comparison is silly and doesn't belong in this thread, because the player I know that did kill that 50+ day former byn sergeant in a public street of allanak while bodyguards were with him, did it alone, and that player never even posted in this thread

And he did it entirely due to peraine and bloodburn
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inky on October 14, 2018, 07:10:32 AM
I'm actually pretty sure I know about that myself. Good on the player for pulling the big win.

But that was still years ago.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lutagar on October 14, 2018, 08:08:18 AM
poisons are the only way viable for mundanes to kill much more dangerous pcs (maxxed warriors, 'gicks, certain sorc guilds)

if they get nerfed then you'll end up with a situation where certain privileged classes/long lived pcs are literally invincible
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Feco on October 14, 2018, 10:12:58 AM
I want to reiterate that I do not think there is a problem with the state of PK.  That said, there are PCs that are going to experience PK opportunities/risks more often than others, and I do think we players should be more careful in crafting our PCs such that we avoid turning into kill-happy psychopaths.  If you carefully craft a PC, you can still participate in PvP combat in meaningful ways, but have no character-driven reason to try and commit constant slaughter.

Make a highwayman instead of a slaughter-happy-murder-raider.  Make a torturer templar instead of a beheader.  Make a leg-breaking crime-boss instead of the "secret at all costs" manipulator.  Don't be afraid to make the psychopaths here and there, just don't make it a trend in every PC you make.

Highwaymen, torturerers, and leg-breakers are still gonna have to kill a fool here and there.  But, they aren't gonna have to heramide and gut every grebber, behead every thief, or backstab every single person that sees their mdesc.

Also, I've shown or seen others show restraint when it comes to PK, but I'm not a fan of plot armor.  I don't want PCs to have absolute protection because their death might be "pointless," or people to avoid murder attempts strictly in service of "The Plot."

Seemingly pointless deaths are part of the setting.  By pointless I don't actually mean "pointless."  PKs still need to occur for character-driven reasons, and not as a result of OOC griefing -- I just don't think all PCs deserve an explanation.

Restraint is best used when all options are "equal," in a sense.  When killing provides no serious extra benefit other than a *ding*.

Where restraint should be more common is in the formulation of schemes.  Not every turn necessitates death, and goals that don't involved killing everyone can be a lot more fun.  A revenge plot that involves harassment, embarrassment, and financial ruin can be a blast if it lasts forever.  However, a murder plot that gets stretched out for the sake of length is contrived, and it definitely feels like it, at least to me.

If I plan to kill some people, and I find them knocked out in an alley, it's just serendipity, and the murder plot gets to end easy-peasy.  It's not cheap.  It's what happens when you get tangled up in murder -- someone is probably gonna die, and   it's probably not going to be rewarding.  But... no shit.  Of course it isn't always going to be rewarding or grandiose.  Murder and killing are terrible, nasty, horrifying things that I have no doubt would leave any normal person feeling empty, drained, and unfulfilled.

My thoughts are definitely meandering here but... sometimes you just gotta kill someone.  Bone swordz and all that.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Harmless on October 14, 2018, 11:19:28 AM
Poisons don't need a strength/potency nerf, they need a rarity/cost change as has already been suggested, because the constant creep of inflation and increase in supply of these poisons is making it so available that at any point in time there are probably 20 or more active well trained PCs who have multiple high grade poisons on their weaponry, ready to go at all times. I do remember when a single heramide tainted blade was the ultimate sign that I had really come far with a character, but now it feels like heramide gets tossed into the mix even when killing targets that have absolutely no combat or defense skills.

Also, good post Feco, I agree completely with all of that. There is a lot to be said about mixing your murder with a bit of...roleplay. The usual counterargument I see to your points is "but if you aren't brutal and merciless you will be hunted down and killed by a mob of SJWs." I do remember that happening several years ago, but I haven't seen that nearly as much in the past few years either. It seems to be a good time to RP your murderer with restraint.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lostinspace on October 14, 2018, 01:06:13 PM
Most poisons are fine, heramide seems to have become much more common, maybe too common but I'm not really sure.

For what it's worth, it's easier to cure now too it seems
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Feco on October 14, 2018, 02:26:19 PM
Iíd be super onboard with poisons not lasting on weapons for any real amount of time.  An IC day, maybe.  Make it a strategic resource.  Theyíre very powerful and a shortened potency would nicely balance them.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 14, 2018, 02:52:16 PM
That sounds like an even bigger pain in the ass for pulling off an assassination.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 14, 2018, 02:59:06 PM
Iíd be super onboard with poisons not lasting on weapons for any real amount of time.  An IC day, maybe.  Make it a strategic resource.  Theyíre very powerful and a shortened potency would nicely balance them.

As much as I love walking around for RL weeks on end with my terradin dagger in reserve, I have to agree with this. Poisons are extremely OP. They are a machine gun in a world of bone swords, especially when you run into that Soh who has a quiver full of poisoned arrows that drop you in a shot. Why even BOTHER playing a mage if you want to kill people? Play a Soh and go shoot turaal until you don't miss.

A taint on a blade should last a reasonable amount of time, not until used. And it should disappear if the blade is sheathed or put into a container. You should have to risk putting on the poison and THEN going straight to the kill.

Maybe a mix and match. Some of the weaker poisons last much longer, but the ones that leave you dead or at the mercy of someone else? No. They shouldn't be so prevalent.

I knew poisons were fucked in the current economy when someone offered me twenty leaves of heramide for something. That's the potential to kill TWENTY CHARACTERS, staff. TWENTY.

The fact that 20 people didn't get murdered that same day should demonstrate the absolute restraint on PK that I exhibit. :)

ETA: For Metekillot, for a planned assassination it's almost no additional effort. You poison your blade before you set out. But for the random griefer who rolls around with a quiver full? Yeah, it's a big pain in the ass to lose that freedom.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 14, 2018, 03:00:41 PM
Iíd be super onboard with poisons not lasting on weapons for any real amount of time.  An IC day, maybe.  Make it a strategic resource.  Theyíre very powerful and a shortened potency would nicely balance them.

This is actually a good idea. 2 RL hours would be a good time frame, I think.

Makes having the poison skill more valuable as well, so a PC can taint a blade when needed, rather then just having your Miscreant buddy goo up all your blades 'just in case'.

Really great suggestion.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 14, 2018, 03:01:59 PM
Really feel like you guys don't like one of the few things that can gank some beefed up asshole warrior.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 14, 2018, 03:06:41 PM
I support having poisons expire like spice and food as a fuck you to successful indie hoarders, I do not support poison expiring ridiculously quickly.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Is Friday on October 14, 2018, 03:09:56 PM
Expiring poison ingredients like food and spice is a great suggestion.

Having poisons on a blade/arrow expire when sheathed, contained, or after 2 RL hours is another great suggestion.

I can't count the amount of times that I've rolled into a leader position to find 20-50 applications of SUPER RARE POISON. If I were a jerk I could pretty easily kill everybody for little reason other than pettiness. That doesn't make for good stories.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 14, 2018, 03:19:04 PM
Really feel like you guys don't like one of the few things that can gank some beefed up asshole warrior.

I just don't go around trying to gank beefed up asshole warriors simply for being assholes.

Generally those Gaj-sitting beefed up warriors have ZERO impact on the plots I'm in anyway. Whatever reason they have for being an asshole to everyone except the curvy, busty teen straight out of chargen is their own. Most of them seem to be playing an entirely different game than I am anyway.

I'm not ever going to get into a situation where I need to fight one of them. I dislike playing warriors, and the way the current game is set up, there's hardly even any reason for a beefed up warrior to go after ANOTHER beefed up warrior. Joe Jade the uber-warrior is never going to get in an actual fight with Mike the Mighty Byn sergeant. But that's a whole other thread.

I use poison A LOT. I love it. But I'm the first to admit it's freakin' overpowered.





Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: roughneck on October 14, 2018, 03:27:09 PM
Really feel like you guys don't like one of the few things that can gank some beefed up asshole warrior.

No, I'm usually the guy poisoning the beefed up asshole warrior. I just know how easy it get a PC to the place where you're riding around with maxxed archery, 30 poisoned arrows in your quiver, a strap sheath full of poisoned knives, as well as a knife belt full, and a spear that can take poison on your back for good measure.

Luckily, already, poisoned arrows seem to have a much lower probability of successfully delivering certain poisons than a stabbing weapon in melee combat does.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: yousuff on October 14, 2018, 03:36:01 PM
I use poison A LOT. I love it. But I'm the first to admit it's freakin' overpowered.
Just heramide and perraine are a bit broken imo. Both are an instant win weapon. They're meant to be rare but they're as common as obsidian longswords currently.

A quick look at either results in the following:

"an arrow strikes you in the neck/you feel a blade in your back/a thrown dagger hits you on the left big toe"
"You feel ill"
"your vision goes black/you can no longer move"

teleporting behind you, the elven rogue says in mangled anime sirihish:
"nothign personell kid"

There should be either some delay/onset of both of the above considering they're both basically a death sentence a single tick after they strike you. Last time I got hit by heramide I didn't even have time to hit a keystroke before going unconscious, which while I have no qualms with, still feels like it leaves most characters without a chance. I'm all for huge advantages given with preparation and planning, as well as the use of poisons, but the use of an instant killing poison ruins the experience. Either drain your st points at a steady rate (for heramide), or have your joints stiffen up steadily but still very quickly (giving you the chance to at least get 1 or 2 swings with a weapon, or move a room or two with a bit of notice). Heramide as it is, is more potent than any known sedative, judging by its effects anyway. They need a nerf. Not to make them useless, but give them some sort of risk. Even if heramide drained your movement points to zero nearly instantly and dropped all of your combat skills by 50% it'd be better imo.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 14, 2018, 03:38:40 PM
Naw, you guys are talking about a much shorter timeframe than I have in mind.  Poisons can stay on weapons...but just not forever.  RL week or so.

This allows you to 'be prepared', but not be content with 'I did it once, it's forever'.  This allows for people to make a living off of both applying them and supplying them.  This allows for the 'oh shit' moment where you thought it was tainted, but it isn't.

If we went down to as short a timeframe as you guys are talking about...again, I'd want poison in stealth possible.  There is an extreme amount of patience required when you're targeting someone who meets with a lot of people.  You have to wait outside of buildings for a long enough time that you wonder if they logged off, but don't want to check their head to alert them.

2 RL hours is just too short.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Harmless on October 14, 2018, 05:10:25 PM
A few hours timeframe would make the act of giving an underling or companion a poisoned blade for self defense impossible unless you knew the day they would be attacked.

Even a RL week would be short compared to infinity.

A nerf such that the full potency only lasts RL hours (giving assassins who use poison an advantage) but a moderate/low potency form lasts for weeks (so your gifted poisoned weapons or ammo still have a use but with less power) and eventually totally wearing/rubbing off would be fine

Qualities of certain weapons that hold onto poison for longer than others would be cool

The age of the applied poison causing it to have a lower and lower chance of sticking and affecting the target but with usual potency is also an option

There are a half dozen or more ways that this could be addressed, up to staff of course. Glad to see I wasn't the only player who has noticed a major uptick in heramide use.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 14, 2018, 05:54:39 PM

I don't even know where the heramide bush or tree or whatever it is loads. It seems like there's a small handful of players who DO though and you've got at least one spam-harvesting that sucker like crazy.

Maybe it's time to show some restraint there. And if it's some employer of yours telling you to harvest it like crazy, then they need to show some restraint.

Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 14, 2018, 05:59:30 PM

I don't even know where the heramide bush or tree or whatever it is loads. It seems like there's a small handful of players who DO though and you've got at least one spam-harvesting that sucker like crazy.

Maybe it's time to show some restraint there. And if it's some employer of yours telling you to harvest it like crazy, then they need to show some restraint.

Yup.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Is Friday on October 14, 2018, 06:02:53 PM
Urging players to exercise restraint isn't going to work. We saw how well that worked with the economy IG. Change the code.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Miradus on October 14, 2018, 06:21:14 PM

I get frustrated with this game when I hear that. Because it's mostly true.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Inks on October 14, 2018, 07:19:52 PM
I don't think there is a problem with poisons at all. I don't even think most PK's involve them. I think there is a lot of hearsay on this thread regarding what players are 'jumping at the chance to do'. I have been PK'd, the only time I think it was twinky was when an elf kept bashing my new assassin human pc westside in front of guild npcs, running out when they eventually aggro'd, running back in and bashing me again. But I was seriously laughing, PK is great and not really as common as people say. I see it way less now than 3 years ago.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: 650Booger on October 14, 2018, 08:37:11 PM
I don't think there is a problem with poisons at all. I don't even think most PK's involve them. I think there is a lot of hearsay on this thread regarding what players are 'jumping at the chance to do'. I have been PK'd, the only time I think it was twinky was when an elf kept bashing my new assassin human pc westside in front of guild npcs, running out when they eventually aggro'd, running back in and bashing me again. But I was seriously laughing, PK is great and not really as common as people say. I see it way less now than 3 years ago.

I agree.  I don't see poisons being any more deadly than master sap or master backstab.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on October 14, 2018, 08:41:38 PM
I'm sort of on the fence, here. It does seem like "rare" poisons like heramide are FAR more common than they were 6 years ago. I assume that the location of it was probably leaked OOC somewhere at some point.

But I also wouldn't want to see poisons dropped to some crazy low timer like 2RL hours for a number of reasons that Armaddict and Harmless pointed out. I really don't think I like the idea of poisons expiring on blades at all. And I don't want to see them nerfed, either.

If I'm correct, and the location/s of rare poisons(peraine/heramide) was leaked OOCly at some point, maybe the solution is really simple: Move the sources IG.

Maybe even make the sources non-static, similar to the nomadic tribal encampments that appear IG, where they move around from time to time and can't always be depended upon to be found in the same exact location, representing the growth, harvest, regrowth cycle in a way, in multiple areas, that sort of works to make it less easy to just know where they're at all the time, and encourage more IC exploration.

It might be a good policy for staff to simply revisit this once per RL year, changing the locations of the cycling spawn points to give explorer players something to find, and keep the poisons rare that way.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Is Friday on October 14, 2018, 08:44:26 PM
I don't see a reason to have them not fade like food or spice. Want to kill someone with heramide or peraine? Hire someone or find it yourself within a month or two of wanting to do the deed. You shouldn't have an armory of poisons in each clan for rivals that come up in the future.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 14, 2018, 08:54:36 PM
I don't see a reason to have them not fade like food or spice. Want to kill someone with heramide or peraine? Hire someone or find it yourself within a month or two of wanting to do the deed. You shouldn't have an armory of poisons in each clan for rivals that come up in the future.

One of my characters had a staff of like 8 [redacted]. No business being in there.

Use them or they dry up unless preserved in a special container is something I'd back.  Necessary? No. More realistic? I don't know enough about poisons in real life to say.  I know my grandmother had certain sedating herbs (rumored to be deadly in large quantities) for years in a glass jar with a cork.  I mean YEARS, like 10.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Is Friday on October 14, 2018, 09:04:31 PM
I think if we're in the business of telling compelling stories with danger, you have to involve people organically in the plot.

Positive things for poison decay:
1.) Poison gatherers are never "out of a job". Leaders can't stockpile it, so you always will be valued for your skills to get to X or Y dangerous location. Leaders and gangs will put more of a value on good help. That's good for the majority of the playerbase who can be employed as good help.
2.) Poison is used for important targets, not "just anyone". Which may or may not be the case currently--but you definitely can if you are a skilled or semi-experienced player who knows how to use Google/Discord private messages.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 14, 2018, 10:44:55 PM
I don't see a reason to have them not fade like food or spice. Want to kill someone with heramide or peraine? Hire someone or find it yourself within a month or two of wanting to do the deed. You shouldn't have an armory of poisons in each clan for rivals that come up in the future.

One of my characters had a staff of like 8 [redacted]. No business being in there.

Use them or they dry up unless preserved in a special container is something I'd back.  Necessary? No. More realistic? I don't know enough about poisons in real life to say.  I know my grandmother had certain sedating herbs (rumored to be deadly in large quantities) for years in a glass jar with a cork.  I mean YEARS, like 10.

This, plus some things that were perfectly harmless *become* poisonous over time. Consider canned goods. If not perfectly sealed, or properly canned, you could end up with botulism.

As for decay "like food and spice does now" (to Friday) - I'm not happy with the way food and spice decay now. Playability should always trump realism, whenever the two are at odds. I like the idea that they would eventually decay, because we need money sinks, and we need to keep hoarding to a minimum. So I get that. But a Kuraci acquiring a knot of super expensive high-end spice for an important visitor to Luir's and expecting to deliver it within 48 RL hours, only to find out that the noble was assassinated or her player stored, and now you're stuck with a 4000-sid knot and no one to buy it, is not just a money sink when it decays 2 RL days after that. That's bad for business, it's frustrating for the player of the Kuraci, even if he is wealthy (and he might not be, if he's just starting out and this is his first "big" sale).

And forget trying to roleplay out actually MAKING food for a catered event. It could easily take several RL hours to do the cooking, which means you're either stuck solo-cooking with barrier up so you're not interrupted, the day of the event, or you start out a week earlier and make a few things here, a few things there, and collect the finished product in storage. Except now it rots, so by the time the event rolls around, all you have to show for your work are some rotting gaspies and 4 kalan tarts.

Not a fan. And definitely not a fan of poison decay. Most things that are poisonous, are MORE poisonous than ever with age. Not less.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on October 14, 2018, 10:56:17 PM
Quote
Not a fan. And definitely not a fan of poison decay. Most things that are poisonous, are MORE poisonous than ever with age. Not less.

Most of these things aren't put on a surface and expected to sit there through storms, scraping of leather, fabric, and wear and tear for a decade either.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lostinspace on October 14, 2018, 11:16:42 PM
Heramide might be more common because another source was added, I don't think anyone has discussed that possibility yet.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: only_plays_tribals on October 14, 2018, 11:22:35 PM
Heramide might be more common because another source was added, I don't think anyone has discussed that possibility yet.

I think if it's becoming common enough that people are noting it isn't 'rare' anymore the sources should probably be examined. It shouldn't be so incredibly abundant that decay even needs to be considered. It should be a thing that you get and pray to whatever god you worship you don't blow it (or get someone with masterful skills to apply)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Narf on October 14, 2018, 11:47:41 PM

Not a fan. And definitely not a fan of poison decay. Most things that are poisonous, are MORE poisonous than ever with age. Not less.

Things that are toxic because of the byproducts of microorganisms will tend to get moreso with time (up to a point) because said microorganisms will poop until they can poop no more, thus maximizing toxicity. Most intentionally created poisons don't work this way however.

For compounds that do not rely on living organisms to produce their toxins, more often than not they will get less toxic with time as their reactive sites interact with the air or any surrounding compounds. This isn't uniform, but it's the most frequent result.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Lizzie on October 15, 2018, 09:13:45 AM
Then they should slowly lose their toxicity, not disintegrate completely. One risk of poisoning someone already exists: did that person end up getting poisoned at all? Another risk should be "was the poison "fresh" enough to make the intended impact?"
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: ShaLeah on October 15, 2018, 09:41:28 AM

Not a fan. And definitely not a fan of poison decay. Most things that are poisonous, are MORE poisonous than ever with age. Not less.

Things that are toxic because of the byproducts of microorganisms will tend to get moreso with time (up to a point) because said microorganisms will poop until they can poop no more, thus maximizing toxicity. Most intentionally created poisons don't work this way however.

For compounds that do not rely on living organisms to produce their toxins, more often than not they will get less toxic with time as their reactive sites interact with the air or any surrounding compounds. This isn't uniform, but it's the most frequent result.
Not gonna lie, this fascinated and disturbed me.

In game we get poisons from two sources no? Plant and wildlife? How about the wildlife ones get more potent as time goes by and the plant based ones lose their effectiveness?
Put a cap on time, like to reach maximum potency [something like so strong you have to touch it with gloves on or you die] in 10 ic years.
Imagine [highly coveted animal poison] that's been curing for some time.  Imagine how much more profitable the poison industry would be! Imagine the "You sold me a bad batch you piece of shit!" Pkillings.

Yassssssssss.

em swoons and passes out
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on October 15, 2018, 10:57:59 AM
It would all kinds of awesome if the most potent poisons had to be brewed and left to ferment for 1 IC year. Or even 1 RL year.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 15, 2018, 11:29:43 AM
Talk about trying to solve a minor issue with a slegehammer.

I like the idea of poisons wearing off in a real life week or so.

Maybe poison skill should level up for each individual poison. They cant just train with bloodburn until they have 100% success rate with the deadlier stuff.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 15, 2018, 11:31:39 AM
EDIT: I think that's a bad idea, RGS, but I do not need to be so rude in my manner of stating it. Having to twink through each individual type of poison would be a huge pain in the ass, since many of them are quite dangerous. Why do you want people to have to spend 30 minutes of their time logged in laying unconscious in their apartment to get good at applying heramide instead of just letting them learn how to apply poison and then using heramide once they get good? What about the lethal poisons? What about the pain in the ass of having to brew cures each time for poisons that will kill you if left uncured?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 15, 2018, 11:32:55 AM
Go ahead and let me know why it is dumb.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lairos on October 15, 2018, 11:33:43 AM
Let's not flame each other's ideas and comments.....that said, let's get back to the original topic so this thread doesn't get locked? Poisons are involved with PK's, but does not really represent the OP discussion. There are some interesting ideas here though.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 15, 2018, 11:36:22 AM
Edited my post.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: RogueGunslinger on October 15, 2018, 11:47:39 AM
EDIT: I think that's a bad idea, RGS, but I do not need to be so rude in my manner of stating it. Having to twink through each individual type of poison would be a huge pain in the ass, since many of them are quite dangerous. Why do you want people to have to spend 30 minutes of their time logged in laying unconscious in their apartment to get good at applying heramide instead of just letting them learn how to apply poison and then using heramide once they get good? What about the lethal poisons? What about the pain in the ass of having to brew cures each time for poisons that will kill you if left uncured?

I just think having a cure on hand should be mandatory for an unskilled poisoner using incredibly deadly poisons. There should be some risk associated with training very powerful abilities.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 15, 2018, 11:52:18 AM
The risk with poisons is that they are very expensive to get (at least for city based characters) and you completely lose the item if you fuck up, on top of being poisoned.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Synthesis on October 15, 2018, 12:04:41 PM
The risk with poisons is that they are very expensive to get (at least for city based characters) and you completely lose the item if you fuck up, on top of being poisoned.

It is stupid easy to get to master-level poisoning using only poison types that most definitely, 100% will not kill you, as long as you fail in a safe place.

Also, the most PK-dangerous poisons don't actually present any risk of you accidentally killing yourself at all, as long as you fail in a safe place.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on October 15, 2018, 12:11:01 PM
Am I wrong?

(https://i.imgur.com/E1RzJ6J.gif)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2018, 12:13:19 PM
I had made a request a month or two back for a change in the poisoning skill that might address some of this.  Will have to follow up on that!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Synthesis on October 15, 2018, 12:13:41 PM
You're wrong about everything except them being expensive-ish.

Still sort of wrong about that, because two of the best "practice poisons" are free to scavenge--you just have to know where to look.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Nao on October 15, 2018, 02:03:06 PM
Peraine has been nerfed at some point in the past. I'm not sure if this is new, but there is a defense against heramide. Stealth PKs have just been nerfed since you won't be able to have master backstab and master stealth on the same character anymore. We still have to see the effects of this, since the subclasses haven't been overhauled and legacy assasins are probably still around. Can we wait and see how all this turns out before we make it even harder to kill long-lived combat characters than it already is?

I haven't found heramide easy to get when I tried, some time ago this year. If it is everywhere now, that's probably because of a small number of characters farming it, and will become less common again once these characters are gone. I assume it's completely temporary.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: tapas on December 29, 2018, 09:34:48 PM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Greve on January 19, 2019, 11:18:48 AM
I think one part of the problem is the fact that killing someone the "normal" way can be nearly impossible. If you're not a mul/giant or someone with unbelievably high strength and a Club of Lucky Headshots +5, killing with conventional combat is barely an option unless there's a locked door involved. Walking up to someone in the open and typing 'kill man' will result in death 0% of the time.

Namino touched upon the combat delays some pages back. I think it's something that deserves to be revised. It's a part of the game that has probably been untouched since the days when it wasn't even an RPI. Why does attacking somebody leave you unable to act again for like ten seconds? If you initiate combat, they can flee at minimal risk and difficulty, and run halfway across Allanak or the Red Desert before you can begin to give chase.

This leads players to seek out other ways to kill, and these ways tend to be a lot less palatable. The one-shot backstab, the heramide arrow, the apartment tango, the hopeless execution in a jail cell. People know that this is how you actually land a kill, so they plan with that in mind and even make race, class and role choices that accomodate it. A disproportinate number of murders are carried out in one of these few repetitive ways.

It would be a lot more interesting to lose a character in a hard-fought battle to the death where you actually have time to emote, and perhaps to understand the reason, than just getting the old "someone stabs you, your vision goes black. Mantishead." It's a souring experience and something that gets overused, because if you're making a character that you think might have reasons to PK, you're compelled to make it a character that can do something like that. And then once you've finally got that character with master backstab or whatever, it's tempting to look for ways to use it, sometimes a little too frivolously.

Various other MUDs have had no such instakill trump cards, instead it took time to flee. I've had a lot of great fights in games running the RPI Codebase where there's no such thing as backstab or poisons or nonsensical stun damage with clubs. There were plenty of deaths but they usually involved an actual fight, and I think it made for a better and more dynamic PvP environment. It creates a less all-or-nothing scale of character deadliness. On Armageddon, it's too often a binary question of "have you got heramide/backstab/god-strength or are you not dangerous?"

There are certainly times when a quick and dirty kill has its place and I'm not advocating for the removal of those abilities, but I think it's unhealthy when it becomes the go-to method. The fight to the death is underused on Armageddon because it isn't very viable, and I think it could be made viable with a revision of combat delays and the instant nature of flee. Fleeing is just too easy.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: tapas on January 20, 2019, 10:55:58 AM
I've been banging this drum for years. But nobody's listening. Players are too attached to their cheap kills. And staff are not interested in policing them.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: X-D on January 20, 2019, 02:27:44 PM
While I agree with Greve on the magicks thread, I do not agree here...least I mostly don't agree. I do agree that one problem is that straight combat killings are indeed nearly impossible unless DRASTICALLY overmatched. I do not agree with the solution. I have played the muds that have the much harder to flee and the 10, 15, 20, 30 minute combat scenes, which in itself is horrible, but though PK does happen, it is VERY rare and the conclusion is always, and I do mean, always forgone. Either one is DRASTICALLY over matched or they both live. Most those muds even have limits to how many can be attacking one opponent and often even size limits....everything in those muds is actually weighted towards survival when it comes to PK...same as here. The difference being, in those muds you time sink 30 minutes into nobody dying and in arm it is decided often in moments...far more realistic at least. In SOI when I played and mordor was still open, I actually saw and was involved in fights that took so long that we actually went OOC "Hey, I need to go to work in an hour, can we pick this back up tomorrow at this time? Other person, Sure, I have a baby to feed. Come back next day, get back to fighting, finally one person manages to disengage and runs off....Honestly a 2 hour mudsex session is more worthwhile.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Greve on January 20, 2019, 03:47:04 PM
Those games have completely different combat systems. Adding a run-up to flee doesn't mean fights suddenly take thirty minutes. It'll be every bit as fast as it always was, you just can't type 'flee' and vanish from the room in a literal instant. Not sure where you connect that idea with thirty minute fights.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: X-D on January 20, 2019, 04:29:13 PM
Because, Arm combat is pretty quick and dirty, mobs/npcs can kill in moments, And used to have no delay to entering combat, movement etc. So changing flee in any way has far reaching effects that would cause many other changes need be done.

Now...What I could get behind is the engage combat delay to be gotten rid of except for one thing.

Currently, you engage combat, for whatever reason you are delayed, for a rather long time from using any other action, be they combat skills (which makes no sense) Spells (also makes no sense) or flee...this does make sense from a playability standpoint.

I vote we get rid of that delay OTHER THEN for flee.

I attack amos, amos instaflees, I should be able to rather easily stay right on his tail...after all, I was inside sword range to start.

Also, Sorry Greve, part of my reply here was also referring to your post in the elf str thread on accident...had it in my head at the same time. :)


Have to keep the delay on fleeing after engaging attack though, just because people would abuse that.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on January 20, 2019, 05:14:06 PM
A chase command that hitches you on to a mobile, and swings swords at them as they move. Like an aggressive shadow command. It could be based on the threaten skill.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: X-D on January 20, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
I do not like it being coded, you want to chase, use your fingers.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: lostinspace on January 20, 2019, 08:03:42 PM
Chase is literally already a command to aggressively follow someone.

edit:
To add on, there have been lots of new skills, class combos, and interesting mechanics added in the last few years. Most seemed to have ignored them in favor of locked doors and poisoned daggers, falling back on what they know works. There are more ways than ever to facilitate a murder, especially while making it easier to RP while doing so.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: number13 on January 20, 2019, 11:49:18 PM
Chase is literally already a command to aggressively follow someone.

Oh shit. Yeah, I knew that. I've literally never used it.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 21, 2019, 04:57:11 AM
Have we considered having a check of the attacker's agility+flee skill against the fleeing party's agility+flee skill? If the fleeing party's rolls is equal to or less than the attacker's roll, the fleeing party can't flee.

I know that currently, you can fail to flee, but I don't know the dynamics behind that sort of fail. I thought that in the past, I saw messages along the lines of "Your foe keeps you from fleeing", but I'm not absolutely certain about that.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on January 21, 2019, 11:08:20 AM
Have we considered having a check of the attacker's agility+flee skill against the fleeing party's agility+flee skill? If the fleeing party's rolls is equal to or less than the attacker's roll, the fleeing party can't flee.

I know that currently, you can fail to flee, but I don't know the dynamics behind that sort of fail. I thought that in the past, I saw messages along the lines of "Your foe keeps you from fleeing", but I'm not absolutely certain about that.

I'd have to run the math on something like this, but I'm fairly sure the odds of fleeing when you get swarmed by virtually anything would likely drop close to zero if something like this was implemented. Having to beat 3+ things in a random roll, even with high skill might be rather difficult. At low skill, the odds are very bad. Lots more noobs being killed by swarms of chalton could be the result. Or being killed in the street by rats, even. When both have low or no flee skill, it'd come down to a random dice roll, so we'd have noobs only having a 50% chance to flee from a rat.

And forget things like carru that give chase and re-engage. Getting away from them would be virtually impossible. Those instances where people have close calls, where they had to flee from something 2-3 times as it chased and re-engaged in multiple rooms would cease to be a thing. In at least ONE of those instances, they're going to fail to flee and die instead.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Hauwke on January 21, 2019, 04:59:45 PM
I kind of like it as an idea, people should not be traveling the world on their own in my mind anyway, you have creatures as big as a house that can eat you in one bite, but no one shows any real fear about that fact. If you knew that you could have potential  to die just because you got into combat with them, I feel like people would respect the critters a little more. Besides, fleeing works too fast anyway. You are going to run from a car sized moose on a car sized beetle down a road where the moose clearly has every advantage of movement?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on January 21, 2019, 09:30:20 PM
I kind of like it as an idea, people should not be traveling the world on their own in my mind anyway, you have creatures as big as a house that can eat you in one bite, but no one shows any real fear about that fact. If you knew that you could have potential  to die just because you got into combat with them, I feel like people would respect the critters a little more. Besides, fleeing works too fast anyway. You are going to run from a car sized moose on a car sized beetle down a road where the moose clearly has every advantage of movement?

I don't agree with your assessment of who has the advantage of movement, and neither does the code. Most mounts are faster than carru.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Hauwke on January 21, 2019, 10:31:27 PM
Because the carru are coded to walk, not say, run, like most people do.

Edit to add: They also path TO YOU, not path where you are going to, they only appear to move slower than we do because they are a program following another with a delay to actually figure out which way to go, like we do sure, but we just spam walk away until the program cannot keep up since it is walking and we are running.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on January 21, 2019, 11:07:35 PM
Because the carru are coded to walk, not say, run, like most people do.

Edit to add: They also path TO YOU, not path where you are going to, they only appear to move slower than we do because they are a program following another with a delay to actually figure out which way to go, like we do sure, but we just spam walk away until the program cannot keep up since it is walking and we are running.

I wasn't talking about running. Just spam walking away is often enough to get away from them if they don't attack the moment they enter the room with you.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: X-D on January 22, 2019, 01:02:43 AM
Hauwke mentions the animals big as a house, Yes, and I should be able to see that from MILES away, but because of code limits that house can be right next to me but diagonal...so...SURPRISE!.

So, I am still good with being able to flee essentially instantly if you are under no other delay. I am also good with the attacker only having a  delay on when he can flee.

I attack, you flee, I can move or do other things...right now. I attack and find out you are way over powered compared to my PC, too bad, I have to wait out the normal delay before I can flee.

I attack then I use say, disarm then you flee, too bad for me, I have to wait out the disarm delay.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Cind on January 22, 2019, 02:32:44 AM
More ways to be killed by people would be kind of awesome. I'm not talking about just more poisons. If lynching at a coded 'lynch platform' could physically kill you and there was one in Allanak, maybe part of the behavior towards gemmers would be corrected. Or at least, the part that includes the gemmers' reactions to being treated more normally.

Elaborate torture devices owned by the Houses, including Kurac, who due to their trade goods may have the most elaborate devices of all, if we want to imitate impressions of real-life culture. Kurac's devices would be considered the most brutal and torturous. These devices would actually drain your hp, movement, mana, or stun, depending on the device, encouraging movement between devices, like in olden times. And you know the playerbase of a harsh desert world--- if the devices didn't do anything, they're not going to crack unless they were planning to before they got put in. As your points started getting lower, people would start being more liekly to give up information in an effort to save their character.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 22, 2019, 02:56:15 AM
Oh fuck yeah! Stocks. Crosses. Pikes. Lynching. Stake-burning. Hell yes. Throw these coded mechanisms into the game.

Also, blindfolds and handcuffs that the attacker can put on a subdued victim.
Code: [Select]
>put elf pike
You slam the grey elf on a wicked bone pike, despite his struggles.

>put dwarf stocks
You clamp the red-toned dwarf's wrists and head in a set of ivory-enscrolled stocks.

>bind man stake
You bind the tall man to a thick, mekillot-bone stake.

>burn man stake
Using a rag-wrapped bone torch, you light a fire under the tall man.

>use blindfold mul
You force a sandcloth blindfold over the angry mul's eyes, as the hulking half-giant holds him still.

>use shackles mul
You shackle the angry mul with a set of sturdy, worn bone manacles, as the hulking half-giant holds him still.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: azuriolinist on January 22, 2019, 08:33:41 AM
...

...

All of this!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vex on January 22, 2019, 01:28:48 PM
Not really possible, due to the rules, about requiring ooc approval for tortures.

Tbh, this sort of thing wouldn't ever work, unless used by a Templar. How often does the current public torture medium, even get used? If you want to get your jollies on torture, and have someone who, for whatever reason, is down for that, you can always use emotes. Anyone who isn't into it, will opt out oocly, and render your fancy coded toys, kind of moot anyway.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Krath on January 22, 2019, 01:35:33 PM
...

Holy shit, this would be fucking awesome.

...

All of this!
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: titansfan on January 22, 2019, 03:48:08 PM
I would think if they declined consent for torture they would just die.....right? I'd love these ideas so much more flavor than what happens most times now. Making it more meaningful to be with a group from both sides too. Me likey.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on January 22, 2019, 05:36:04 PM
Not to be that guy but my thread is totally derailed at this point.

My initial point was RP>PK.  Let the world breath, incubate, and let people who aren't playing combat based characters have a chance to enrich the story.  Remember we're playing a story-led game and the story should take a priority.

If you guys want more ways to kill and torment that's another thread.  My problem isn't how PK occurs, its how PK can become overused it as a plot device instead of story enrichment.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on January 22, 2019, 05:56:55 PM
It's not really derailed, it's moreso people saying that they don't think PK needs to be minimalized, just made more interesting.  RP>PK makes them mutually exclusive, which is not only not the case, but far from the case.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Hauwke on January 22, 2019, 06:32:27 PM
Rp Is RP, PK is also RP. A lot of people tend to forget that just because someone dies, their entire story does not just disappear. They cease to exist sure, but the ramifications of them dying spread through the people who were close to them, and then to others that know those people.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: X-D on January 22, 2019, 07:08:08 PM
And on to that point, How do you know that the PK was the first option? I have had MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY times I have gone though just about every possible option before finally having to kill that PC and then had that player bitch on the GDB that PK should not have been the first option.

Secondly, One has to consider it from you PC's point of view. No real person is going to go, "Hey, I should leave my arch enemy Amos alive to enrich the world with our hatred of each other!" No, it is, "Do unto him before he can do unto me."
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Bebop on January 22, 2019, 07:46:20 PM
And on to that point, How do you know that the PK was the first option? I have had MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY times I have gone though just about every possible option before finally having to kill that PC and then had that player bitch on the GDB that PK should not have been the first option.

Secondly, One has to consider it from you PC's point of view. No real person is going to go, "Hey, I should leave my arch enemy Amos alive to enrich the world with our hatred of each other!" No, it is, "Do unto him before he can do unto me."

I'm not referring to any specific instance.  Also not gonna repeat the same point I've made multiple times here.  When I made this post there were times that 13 people were logging in at peak hours on a Friday.  And PK was happening very frequently.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Vex on January 22, 2019, 08:36:54 PM
I would think if they declined consent for torture they would just die.....right?

They would die, anyway. I have never, ever heard, of someone being tortured, and left to live, regardless of if they "gave it up" or not.

If you want to be one of those people, who is into that kind of rp, you can already do so, without wasting coder time, on a bunch of torture machines. All you need is someone to say yes and emote away.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Armaddict on January 22, 2019, 09:48:47 PM
Quote
They would die, anyway. I have never, ever heard, of someone being tortured, and left to live, regardless of if they "gave it up" or not.

I have had characters released after torture, and have had maiming done to my characters for them to live through after.

Usually templars or members of the Guild, insuring that you know that they are scary and they mean business, but they still want you to do something for them.

Just sayin', it's not -that- weird.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 23, 2019, 12:35:15 AM
The reason I think that PK is often considered the best option to end conflict is:
1. It really can absolutely just end the fucking conflict.
2. Beating your foe to the dirt means nothing in the long term code wise - you can't really maim someone code wise short of whipping them.
3. People tend to not roleplay fear completely accurately. Since they know that as long as they survive, they can come back, they do, instead of just cowering for the rest of their lives.

This is one of the main reasons I'd love options for forced maiming to varying degrees. It's a lot like the argument for giving mages more options to inspire fear. Having code enforce consequences makes them mean so much more.

Things like hitting negative HP should be an auto-maim of some sort. They can be tiny things. Things like a few hp/stun/move lost. Things like an horrendous wound to your hand taking you to negative HP could mean decreased disarm ability, while the same to the head might lower stun permanently. If a person has you subdued and decides to chop off your hand, he should be able to actually remove that wear slot from your list. Things like this would allow the more powerful person ways to end immediate conflict and instill the proper fear in you all at the same time.

I'm with Bebop in saying that I would love PVP to end in many ways aside from death. I wouldn't want anything to change, rule wise, except for coded bad things to be able to be dealt to people aside from death.

By the way, Bebop, I'd say yeah, this got derailed a bit, but it had been dead for like ... two months by the time the derail happened. We're just tagging on! :)
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Cind on February 04, 2019, 06:57:48 AM
What if nilazis came back, and one type of them had an 'ability' that allowed a pc to come back from the dead?

It would have to be addressed OOCly through the request tool, with a staff saying "Okay yeah" and then they would email the nilazi in question that "Hey, so-and-so wants to come back, so wiggle some junk at 5 p.m. on Thursday or Friday and I will see this happen." It sounds like a pain in the ass code-wise and like it takes up some paperwork, but--- come on, don't you want to see this be a possibility?

It doesn't even have to happen that much. The pc's player can play a short-lived thief while the paperwork is being processed and they're being given the o.k. Maybe this sort of thing isn't approved most of the time--- only happening once or twice every RL year. But the -possibility- that this can happen, would really give me the shivers. Think of the last big bad you had to fight. What if you had to live with the possibility that a witch could bring them back to life?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Patuk on February 04, 2019, 08:16:00 AM
What if nilazis came back, and one type of them had an 'ability' that allowed a pc to come back from the dead?

It would have to be addressed OOCly through the request tool, with a staff saying "Okay yeah" and then they would email the nilazi in question that "Hey, so-and-so wants to come back, so wiggle some junk at 5 p.m. on Thursday or Friday and I will see this happen." It sounds like a pain in the ass code-wise and like it takes up some paperwork, but--- come on, don't you want to see this be a possibility?

It doesn't even have to happen that much. The pc's player can play a short-lived thief while the paperwork is being processed and they're being given the o.k. Maybe this sort of thing isn't approved most of the time--- only happening once or twice every RL year. But the -possibility- that this can happen, would really give me the shivers. Think of the last big bad you had to fight. What if you had to live with the possibility that a witch could bring them back to life?

There's already a ton of griping when a score of people dies off through event shenanigans or other unsatisfying ways and there's no leniency. How bad would you reckon that should get if the default weren't 'no rez' entirely?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on February 06, 2019, 12:22:09 AM
It seems like there's a ton of griping somewhere by someone no matter what. I'd rather there be griping while cool, dynamic, eldritch shit is happening than griping about how nothing happens.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Patuk on February 06, 2019, 03:12:33 AM
Cool, eldritch shit like some rando sending in a request on a thursday afternoon after some guys spent a hell of a lot of effort trying to kill them?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Heade on February 06, 2019, 01:21:13 PM
Yeah...I don't like it for PCs. For staff-led plots or events it'd be ok. But players who were killed by players being rezzed by players would create stupid. And WHO, do you think, would primarily be the ones to benefit from this? Templars and Nobles.

The amount of time, effort, and planning that goes into offing such a person is already a huge discouragement from attempting it. If this were brought in, it'd just make some of the safest roles in the game even safer. We don't need safer.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on February 06, 2019, 02:16:02 PM
Cool, eldritch shit like some rando sending in a request on a thursday afternoon after some guys spent a hell of a lot of effort trying to kill them?
Some rando with 3 karma who has to do a pain in the ass ritual that probably requires staff oversight and approval.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Patuk on February 06, 2019, 03:00:26 PM
Cool, eldritch shit like some rando sending in a request on a thursday afternoon after some guys spent a hell of a lot of effort trying to kill them?
Some rando with 3 karma who has to do a pain in the ass ritual that probably requires staff oversight and approval.

Exactiy this is what I take issue with and believe shouldn't become a thing, yes.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: MeTekillot on February 06, 2019, 03:50:18 PM
Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Cind on February 07, 2019, 10:04:25 PM
I like the idea but I don't think it would actually become a reality because of the amount of work staff and players would have to do to rez this guy. In my version it would always be either 1) someone the nilazi decided was worth performing the ritual for, a dear friend or required associate, or 2) someone the nilazi was told to attempt the ritual for. The ritual to rez someone would require 1) a maxxed-out nilazi performing their top-tier spell, being of the highest-karma elemental category, and 2) some hard work that requires help to achieve, so that every other nilaz hiding by themselves in Storm doesn't attempt this ritual. For example, the skull of a mekillot, the mane of a kiyet lion, four candles and the severed head of a full-blooded human being.

OOC requirements would be that the player being rezzed -must- be pertinent enough to a long-standing plot for them being rezzed to be worth the effort. Also, staff would make it clear underneath the (ic) resurrection helpfile that MOST people who apply for this would not be accepted, and that it is completely up to staff who can be rezzed or not. Nothing besides the above I mentioned would be in the way--- so a long-lived group in Storm trying to take down the militia can rez their powerful sorcerer, and the Guild can rez their second-in-command. Not just for templars and nobles. And since someone mentioned that this would make templars and nobles more unkillable, staff would have a policy of being more likely to turn them down. Maybe the elements sense that templars and nobles are driven by their fear of their rotting-king, but sense a 'true' lust for blood in people like rogue Stormers. This could be the lore, or the truth, or both.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Namino on February 07, 2019, 10:09:13 PM
To resurrect someone, the Nilazi dies at the completion of the ritual.

Do you want it, Nilazi?

Do you want it baaaaaad?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Shalooonsh on February 09, 2019, 08:01:03 PM
Nilaz is the non-element of absence. 
Nilaz is the non-element of nothingness.

Nilaz is NOT necromancy.

TYVM for coming to my TEDtalk.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Veselka on February 10, 2019, 02:38:55 AM
Quote

Nilazi                                                               (Guilds)

   Nilazi are the antithesis of all the other elementalists of Zalanthas. At their fingertips is the
power to go against the other elements. Of all the elementalists of Zalanthas, there is not a less
trusted individual than the void mages, besides defilers themselves. Not only will the general
populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other elementalists seek to drive them from
existence.

   Void mage spells often invoke the name of Nilaz, the theorized space where all elements are
absent. Their magicks involve extra-planar spacial manipulations and blocking the other elements.

   Due to their nature, void elementalists are distrustful of most and so
make questionable at best travelling companions.

  Anathema
    The Aspect of Anathema describes Nilaz as the antithesis of elemental energy. Nilazi who are
aligned with this aspect of their element are capable of negating or turning such energies against
those that wield them. They are also capable of tampering with the natural equilibrium of their
victims to disrupt or damage.
Notes:
   The Aspect of Anathema requires three karma to play.


See also:
   Magick Basics, Magick Element

I just got happy.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Hauwke on February 10, 2019, 03:15:47 AM
Is that to say that we can expect a few Nilazi around at some point? Because that would be dope.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: X-D on February 10, 2019, 04:17:21 AM
Without the necromancy spells they are lame.

Least one or two of those should be reworked to make them not undead use and givin back to the guild.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: John on February 10, 2019, 07:31:41 AM
Without the necromancy spells they are lame.

Least one or two of those should be reworked to make them not undead use and givin back to the guild.

I am hopeful that staff would not have gone to the effort of creating a subguild without making sure it was appropriately fleshed out. We may not have undead spells specifically, but it should be on par with the latest versions of the Whitman and run subguilds.

It is quite heartening to see staff reinjecting those elements which make Armageddon unique and distinct.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: only_plays_tribals on February 10, 2019, 08:31:44 AM
Nilazi's can't do the thing anymore?
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: John on February 10, 2019, 09:47:43 PM
Nilazi's can't do the thing anymore?
Most of us don't know what the current Nilazi subclass can do. We'll have to wait until more people play it before it's known.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Medena on February 10, 2019, 09:59:36 PM
Nilazi's can't do the thing anymore?
Most of us don't know what the current Nilazi subclass can do. We'll have to wait until more people play it before it's known.

Hopefully, even after more people play it, most of us still won't know.
Title: Re: PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It
Post by: Veselka on February 10, 2019, 11:07:11 PM
The eternal cycle of the GDB.

"But they should do this!"

"But no one has played them yet."

"But still...!"

I'd love to play one of them, down the road, if I had the karma, time, and wherewithal.