Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: X-D on July 15, 2018, 09:52:56 PM

Title: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: X-D on July 15, 2018, 09:52:56 PM
Starting offense/defense.

The two arguably most powerful skills in the game. From what I see, they all are starting WAY to high, seems to be almost double the legacy classes. So I have to assume they will be maxing higher as well. (I do not believe they will max double).

I have to wonder if any thought was put into it? All the NPCs currently are essentially tuned to legacy skills so I see certain classes like enforcer/raider/fighter being essentially unstoppable in PVE...even moreso then very old rangers and warriors. And also making PVP later in the game more unlikely to happen.

But specially the starting ranges are off the charts, Somebody with no weapon skill or any combat skills at all but with say ranger max offense can reliably solo up to raptor. Personally I think these things should be tuned down on all the new classes...starting a PC should not be so easy.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: John on July 15, 2018, 11:24:47 PM
I have played a mixed class and have observed no such boost.

There does seem to have been a bigger stat boost provided by classes. Or else I've been uncharacteristically lucky.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 16, 2018, 12:58:30 AM
QuoteThe two arguably most powerful skills in the game. From what I see, they all are starting WAY to high, seems to be almost double the legacy classes. So I have to assume they will be maxing higher as well. (I do not believe they will max double).

Why would you assume that? Seriously, why assume higher starting skills = higher caps? There's no logical connection there at all.

Brokkr has discussed some of the new classes having higher combat skill caps than previously available, but there was no mention of offense/defense being included in that. That seems unlikely, and I'm not even sure why raising the caps on offense/defense would be a concern given how it was already nearly impossible to train them once you'd reached a certain point.

Most of what you're seeing is just higher starting skills. The heavy/light combat classes are definitely stronger out of the gate than warrior/ranger/assassin were. This is on purpose and a good thing. The initial 3 to 5 to 10 days played grind of getting your PC basically competent wasn't fun or even difficult (unless you think time sink + having to resist boredom-induced risk taking = difficulty). That just skips you over the phase where you couldn't even fight basic wilderness monsters; hardly a loss if you care about interesting PvE. And you've reached the complete backwards conclusion on PvP; people are probably going to be more willing to engage in PvP knowing that the worst part of the upfront grind for a new combat character is gone.

And they haven't changed how combat skillups work at all, so I really have no idea why such an experienced player as you would be worried about a mass influx of hyper-skilled mega-warriors. New combat PCs will get to the middle-skill-level trap more quickly and easily, yes, but getting past it? That's still going to be rare.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: X-D on July 16, 2018, 02:40:26 AM
hyzhenhok, Staff almost never talks about the hidden skills first off. So not having mentioned it means nothing. Second I assume nothing, playing now since the mud started what, 25 years ago, I assure you I KNOW the difference between a higher combat skill and higher off/def. Lets see if staff denies it. I assure you that the top three combat classes start with substantially higher off/def then any of the legacy classes that come as a close match. And max much higher as well.

And I do not know why you assume I am worried about about
Quotea mass influx of hyper-skilled mega-warriors.
I am not.

off/def dynamics are far greater then you seem to think, even a couple points matters more then many points in a visible skill. And when you combine that with the -fact- that every single mob in the game is tailored to legacy ranges then that is an issue, both in the start of a PC's life and very late on.

Then, when you combine that with admittedly higher visible skills, you are telling me you do not see a balance issue here?

Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 16, 2018, 04:03:36 AM
You stated in your OP that you're just assuming that the maxes are being raised because the starting values are higher. Are you actually basing it on something else? Otherwise, that's a big assumption that seems to play big role in your prediction that PvE is ruined.

I know the heavy combat classes' hidden skills start higher than a warrior's, but having tried one of them it doesn't feel like the game is broken; just that I've skipped the miserable first couple days played grind.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 16, 2018, 04:33:20 AM
I dont know about offense/defense. But I swear I recall reading that weapon maxes and various skill maxes will be higher. Or am I misunderstanding things?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: BrainySmurf on July 16, 2018, 04:48:36 AM
Weaponskills max higher for the new classes. I doubt offense/defense has been touched.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 16, 2018, 05:05:19 AM
If there's a difference it isn't more than a couple days played worth... And now as I say that I realize that a couple days played is fucking forever in any normal game.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on July 16, 2018, 05:16:59 AM
I would agree that it appears as though they have been given a boost. I haven't played one yet, but it does look like it from the PC's I see coming into the game. I don't think it's necessarily a problem, but will likely mean a bit of tweaking and re-balancing which will happen organically over time.

This actually brings some balance to the game in terms of new vs experienced players out of the gate.

Vets are fine starting out with low O/D because they know exactly which mobs to start on and exactly how to boost both visible and hidden skills at a much more efficient rate than beginners do. So, the changes give a newb a fighting chance and save a vet from a bit of a hassle in skill grind at the beginning.

But this is all pure conjecture, we don't know for IF the starting O/D has been boosted, and we certainly don't know exactly how much it's been boosted if it has.

Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: X-D on July 16, 2018, 05:18:45 AM
You would be wrong Brainysmurf...I assure you.

Rogue, my guess is around ten days played by the average combat PC player. The brand new out of the box heavy combat PCs are easily matching or beating 10day+ legacy PCs in off/def right out the box. And again, I know how to tell the difference between that and normal combat skills so people can just leave that be.

As to the maxes not being higher, that would VERY much surprise me as again, over the many years of play I notice that staff tends to keep to a formula on these things. That being if X starts here then it ends that much higher as well.

Again, the issue for me is not the new class verses old class dynamic PC wise, as we will all eventually be new class. But the new class verses old class on what are now legacy NPCs. That and the annoyance in new class verses new class in certain combos when advanced...though that is likely something that can be overcome same as now.

Right now though, compared to any of the new classes I have seen the NPCs or HORRIBLY under powered...so, would it be easier to go through and change all the legacy NPCs over to new classes and balance them or simply balance the new classes some...I mean, I am only talking off/def here, I don't much care about the visible skills.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 16, 2018, 08:11:00 AM
I think it's intentional and a good thing that combat specialist PCs are no longer entering the game as total scrubs. If there are particular NPCs we don't want 0-day or 5-day or 10-day PCs to be able to kill, surely those particular NPCs can be buffed if necessary.  If you're expecting scrabs and raptors and poorly trained/armored/equipped city NPCs to be buffed to the point where they're as dangerous to under-10-day combat specialist characters as they previously were, I think you're going to be disappointed.

As for whether the new classes totally break PvE by being able to massively surpass the previous potential of warriors and are able to solo ankhegs or something like that, color me skeptical until we actually see it happening.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Harmless on July 16, 2018, 08:16:18 AM
3 points to make here; caveat, I've never played a single new class, I mostly lurked in all the discussions of their creation and I have checked their helpfiles out.

1.) The heavy combat classes lack a significant degree of versatility compared to the other class groups; if they got an off/def boost equal to say a 5 day or even 10 day warrior, then that is a good thing as it balances out their lack of utility. On the flipside, I don't necessarily want my stealth/crime oriented character to also have a 10 days played with off/defense level, but starting with at least 5 days played with of grinding already done is AWESOME.

2.) The problem I see isn't with off/def itself but with how having higher off/def makes training other combat skills more difficult (definitely a known issue discussed before), especially if this affects branching.

3.) I doubt they raised the cap on off/def, but there probably was a functional cap on off/def previously since your weapon+other combat skills would often start to influence your offensive and defensive abilities at some point, and therefore make it a little harder for you to gain off/def, barring fighting unarmed, which in theory trained off/defense more purely than fighting with weapons +/- a shield.

Now, I have been told by experienced players that all my notions about how combat works are now wrong, despite being here regularly since 2007; I admit I kind of got lazy when it came to the hack and slash grind in the past half a decade, since that form of play WAS so unrewarding. I may take a new look at playing as bandits or assassins or thugs or soldiers now that there are these new classes, and to be blunt if there are greater starting skills, great. Now I'll be less upset when my hard-earned, Byn-trained Arm soldier gets carelessly thrown into harm's way and dies, and I might actually reroll as some of these story-driving character roles again (even though I have some hard-learned habits of caution that will be hard to break).
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 16, 2018, 09:15:37 AM
I have not yet played any of the new classes yet either. But that goes to further illustrate the opinion I am about to give, and that is I would prefer not to start tweaking anything yet, as I believe it is too soon to know how the changes are going to affect play.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: BrainySmurf on July 16, 2018, 09:46:28 AM
Quote from: X-D on July 16, 2018, 05:18:45 AM
You would be wrong Brainysmurf...I assure you.

Allow me to be more specific. I doubt offense and defense CAPS were adjusted the same way that weaponskill caps were adjusted. There is no way for you to know this as it would take at least a month and a half (40 days played) of dedicated boxing wildlife with heavy bags of rocks to maximize these stats previously with zero distraction or focus on any other roleplay aspect. The new classes have not existed for that long. The hypothesis is entirely founded on your belief that the cap shifted upwards as well as the initial starting point, and there's no evidence yet for that.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 16, 2018, 10:00:01 AM
No one on this thread knows how is it codedly. Until brokkr responds to this, X-Ds points stands until assured otherwise. No guesswork based on experience will be good enough argument.

XD how is it you were not part of the beta test. Someone should have killed your character earlier
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 16, 2018, 11:17:15 AM
I have not played one of the new classes yet, but I have trained against the new classes I'm assuming, and they are tough coming out of the box it seems.  This could easily mean that yes, their off/def are higher.  Is that a bad thing?  In my opinion no, I'd like to see some randomness of tough newbies.  I do highly doubt that the maxes have been increased over 100%, assuming they were at 100%, but then again, my assumption is based on what I have seen from a view other than playing the new class, or classes.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Wday on July 16, 2018, 12:08:26 PM
I believe I can see it. Notice and watched characters start really buff like, and seems the old grind to become who you are is gone.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on July 16, 2018, 12:41:52 PM
X-D is not entirely wrong and not entirely right.

First, let me preface this all by saying the intent all along, given an aging population of players and numerous points of feedback we have received over the years, was to make starting out somewhat easier and less of a grind.  This goes beyond combat to other areas of expertise...crafting for heavy merchantile and survival skills for the survival classes.

There isn't a simple answer for this, because different classes have different starting points, just like warrior, ranger and assassin had different starting points.

The Soldier class has the same starting point as Warriors did.  Scout and Infiltrator are most similar to Ranger and Assassin, just a handful of points higher on their weakest component.

The Figher class is several points stronger in Offense and Defense than the Soldier is, the increases being equally balanced.  Something that could be gained in a day or less of play, depending on how much combat and the nature of the combat one engaged in.  The Raider and Enforcer classes are marginally better in their weak component than Scouts and Infiltrators, respectively, with a larger increase than Fighters get in their stronger component.  The total number of points increase in total for Offense and Defense for the Heavy Combat Classes over their counterpart home advantage class in Light Combat is the same for all the Heavy Classes.

So...is X-D right or wrong?  For Heavy Combat, yes all the starting values are slightly higher.  For Raider and Enforcer weaker components, it is indeed double over Ranger and Assassin, but this is mainly due to the low starting points on the old guilds in those skills.  For everything else (actually for those too) it is an increase we routinely see folks put on it a day or two of playtime in active combat roles.

I may as well come out and say that there is another tweak that was included as well, that was done for the reasons I initially stated.  There are certain combat skills, like offense and defense, that increase at a certain rates.  For a warrior, those rates are comparable to the rates a Laborer learns at.  For ranger, those rates are between a Scout and a Stalker and for assassin those rates are comparable to a Miscreant.  Heavy Combat and in most cases Light Combat classes thus learn faster (just slightly) than one might be used to.  This may also be playing into what you are seeing, and both expected rate of increase as well as the so called skill plateau.

All that said, it is likely what you are seeing is the impact of weapon skills.  For Heavy Combat classes, with a location based weapon skill increase, weapon skills are just several points shy of what used to be (before we made a change last October/November that changed the scale) journeyman weapon skill.

Oh, almost forgot.  Max offense / defense hasn't changed, although it is likely the plateau point is higher.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 16, 2018, 12:47:08 PM
Hey brokkr, question.  Do off/def skills even have different caps? O can they all reach 90 regardless of class, just at a different pace?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 16, 2018, 01:03:59 PM
With change comes.........well, change!  I like the idea of coming out of the box with a bit more survive-ability myself.  I don't know how many times I have created a character concept I find fun, and maybe even an asset to the game, only to be killed by that lone Scrab or some other NPC.  Kudos.

Brokkr, your post is very transparent as to the reasoning and method of toughening up some of these classes from the start!  Thanks! 
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: BrainySmurf on July 16, 2018, 01:06:02 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 16, 2018, 12:41:52 PM
For a warrior, those rates are comparable to the rates a Laborer learns at.  For ranger, those rates are between a Scout and a Stalker and for assassin those rates are comparable to a Miscreant.  Heavy Combat and in most cases Light Combat classes thus learn faster (just slightly) than one might be used to.  This may also be playing into what you are seeing, and both expected rate of increase as well as the so called skill plateau.

Maybe I'm misreading this, but does this mean legacy warriors increase offense and defense at the slowest rate amongst the legacy combat classes (Warrior/Ranger/Assassin)? All of my experience and testing was strongly suggestive of the opposite...

Edit: Tacking on, is there any intention of modifying the wildlife or expanding the wildlife of the game in response to these changes now that new classes aren't as squishy, in order to maintain old challenges and present new ones? I also point this out because the skill plateau you refer to is largely dictated not by one's self, but the efficacy of the opponents they fight, and not everyone plays in sparring clans where new-class characters can train with one another. If the wildlife remains unchanged, I predict indie new-classes will grind to a halt in their skill progression sooner, rather than later, crippling the sense of progression a lot of people play online games for.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on July 16, 2018, 01:41:37 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on July 16, 2018, 01:06:02 PM
Maybe I'm misreading this, but does this mean legacy warriors increase offense and defense at the slowest rate amongst the legacy combat classes (Warrior/Ranger/Assassin)? All of my experience and testing was strongly suggestive of the opposite...

You are misreading it.  Offense and defense, for any particular class, don't have to go up at the same rate.  The reason ranger reads slightly different is that it didn't fit the dynamic going on with warrior and assassin and was slightly overpowered vs them in terms of off/def skill gain.  That has been remedied, and there is a standard dynamic that applies across all the classes.

As for the second point, that would put us right back to where we started from.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 16, 2018, 01:44:30 PM
Sigh. My question got scrolled over. :(

Would put a lot of worries to rest, one would think
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on July 16, 2018, 01:47:14 PM
Or I think I know the answer, but want to confirm before I post anything about it.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Wday on July 16, 2018, 02:07:00 PM
am I reading this wrong? or sounds like if you are in a old class system you will never reach a level of skill as the new? that the old caps off before the new ones? Should we ditch our PC's and start fresh to kinda be able to keep up?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 16, 2018, 02:25:45 PM
Quote from: Wday on July 16, 2018, 02:07:00 PM
am I reading this wrong? or sounds like if you are in a old class system you will never reach a level of skill as the new? that the old caps off before the new ones? Should we ditch our PC's and start fresh to kinda be able to keep up?

The new classes have higher maximum potential than their equivalent old guilds. In practice, most characters never came close to fulfilling their maximum potential and the reasons for that are still present in the new system. It's not something to worry about if you have an established, invested character going.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on July 16, 2018, 02:32:15 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 16, 2018, 12:41:52 PM
Oh, almost forgot.  Max offense / defense hasn't changed, although it is likely the plateau point is higher.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 16, 2018, 03:41:00 PM
Heh. Thats so cute. Wday thinks his legacy character will live long enough to notice the difference :). The sands will keep the blood fresh!
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Wday on July 16, 2018, 04:43:44 PM


Heh. Thats so cute. Wday thinks his legacy character will live long enough to notice the difference . The sands will keep the blood fresh!

I hope so, cause so far just blah
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: X-D on July 16, 2018, 10:59:27 PM
Dar, I was on hiatus for a couple years after my wife died and when I came back the beta testing was nearly over anyway.

QuoteOh, almost forgot.  Max offense / defense hasn't changed, although it is likely the plateau point is higher.

I still see this as problematic.

Still, somebody did point out a down side to increased starting levels to said skills I had not considered...likely that is a large balancing point.

Also, keep in mind all, the point of me starting this thread was not to bag on anything but to simply point out a potential problem early so that it can be watched and adjusted if need be. (some of the replies suggest some of you think it more in the complaint realm)
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: stoicreader on July 17, 2018, 12:21:44 AM
I feel gimped with my legacy ranger.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 17, 2018, 01:02:17 AM
Am I the only one think that legacy rangers/warriors/merchants are more powerful then new guilds?

Shadies yeah. Major difference
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 17, 2018, 01:03:53 AM
I see. Sorry to hear this, X-D. I am glad you have returned
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Armaddict on July 17, 2018, 10:05:01 AM
QuoteAm I the only one think that legacy rangers/warriors/merchants are more powerful then new guilds?

The new classes are more 'powerful', but the legacy classes are stronger in theme/actual defined roles.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: WarriorPoet on July 17, 2018, 10:32:12 PM
There is a noticeable change. I am all for it.

Less grind, more gangster shit.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 17, 2018, 11:01:22 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on July 17, 2018, 10:32:12 PM
There is a noticeable change. I am all for it.

Less grind, more gangster shit.

+1
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Akaramu on July 18, 2018, 10:49:03 AM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on July 17, 2018, 10:32:12 PM
Less grind, more gangster shit.

That does sound cool tbh.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Armaddict on July 18, 2018, 02:44:07 PM
Eh, I'm okay with it except in the context of what X-D is talking about.

If it makes people feel fine going at each other earlier, that's great.  But if we essentially just 'bump down' threats from wildlife, all we've done is bump down survival factor, which is...really quite bleh.

NPC's should remain dangerous.  Fighting alone should be risky.  Finding new friends should be just as, if not more, risky.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: ShaiHulud on July 18, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
I feel gimped actually. A year in, ten plus days with a legacy, and folks are coming out of the box not just kicking my ass, but -Destroying- me.  I like my character and don't want to store or "suicide", but I just don't feel competitive martially anymore.  What to do...hrm..
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 18, 2018, 11:41:18 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 18, 2018, 02:44:07 PM
Eh, I'm okay with it except in the context of what X-D is talking about.

If it makes people feel fine going at each other earlier, that's great.  But if we essentially just 'bump down' threats from wildlife, all we've done is bump down survival factor, which is...really quite bleh.

NPC's should remain dangerous.  Fighting alone should be risky.  Finding new friends should be just as, if not more, risky.

No wonder staff are reserved into taking account the playerbase wishes. Make up your freaking mind people.

Some people say that that playerbase has aged and no longer has time to grind up the skillz to reach the 'surviveability' phase of a character's lifetime.   Okey. Staff make it so characters straight out of chargen start with higher skills.

Now people say the game's too easy.

You cant have it both ways.

It'd be understandable if truly rare and dangerous creatures became 'safe' to hunt.  Kryl, Kiyet, horrors, spider caves, bahamets, rentarri, etc.   Did they?


Or is the issue is that the not so super dangerous, but previously dangerous 'enough' creatures became easier for 'everyone'. Except those few who know the code well enough to skill up quickly to be able to brave those coded monsters and excelt in areas, where others falter? Is this the issue?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Armaddict on July 19, 2018, 12:42:38 AM
Quote from: Dar on July 18, 2018, 11:41:18 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 18, 2018, 02:44:07 PM
Eh, I'm okay with it except in the context of what X-D is talking about.

If it makes people feel fine going at each other earlier, that's great.  But if we essentially just 'bump down' threats from wildlife, all we've done is bump down survival factor, which is...really quite bleh.

NPC's should remain dangerous.  Fighting alone should be risky.  Finding new friends should be just as, if not more, risky.

No wonder staff are reserved into taking account the playerbase wishes. Make up your freaking mind people.

Some people say that that playerbase has aged and no longer has time to grind up the skillz to reach the 'surviveability' phase of a character's lifetime.   Okey. Staff make it so characters straight out of chargen start with higher skills.

Now people say the game's too easy.

You cant have it both ways.

It'd be understandable if truly rare and dangerous creatures became 'safe' to hunt.  Kryl, Kiyet, horrors, spider caves, bahamets, rentarri, etc.   Did they?


Or is the issue is that the not so super dangerous, but previously dangerous 'enough' creatures became easier for 'everyone'. Except those few who know the code well enough to skill up quickly to be able to brave those coded monsters and excelt in areas, where others falter? Is this the issue?

FWIW, they chose to listen to that side, but my position on this has been consistent each and every time this particular topic has come up.  The only thing that I 'shifted' on was agreement that we could have skills branching earlier.

But yes, the latter part of that is more in keeping with what I intended to get across.  I don't think something like a scrab should be 'low risk' for an out-of-the-box character, resulting in very careful solo hunting early, or the push to clan-ship, and sometimes, the unfortunate death.  I don't really support anything that moves the death-risk further away at any point in time in the game, at least as far as combat-oriented characters.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 19, 2018, 05:20:06 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 18, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
I feel gimped actually. A year in, ten plus days with a legacy, and folks are coming out of the box not just kicking my ass, but -Destroying- me.  I like my character and don't want to store or "suicide", but I just don't feel competitive martially anymore.  What to do...hrm..
(https://i.imgur.com/2CFWiIM.gif)
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 19, 2018, 05:31:27 AM
Your character is obsolete. They will be replaced. Everyone will. Armageddon isn't fair. There's always someone tougher. Not everyone who deserves to win and puts in the work will win.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: ShaiHulud on July 19, 2018, 06:17:10 AM
It was a dry joke, sorry to explain.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 19, 2018, 08:27:14 AM
I am glad these changes have been made. A fighter right out of the box -should- be able to kill raptors. Fighting is what they do. They should be able to protect their charges as most likely they will become guards or mercs. I am certain there will still be challenges in fighting PVE and it seems to me that the stronger fighters, lacking in utilities, are going to have a hard time of surviving in others ways, which I think is the intent. If what I'm saying is vague, I like what has been done. Please don't take it back.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: tapas on July 19, 2018, 11:09:10 AM
I guess some people liked grinding for 100+ hours before they can get anywhere?

My question is why they wouldn't just play an mmo if they liked that sort of thing.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on July 19, 2018, 11:21:19 AM
Or, you know, literally every single class other than Heavy Combat.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Armaddict on July 19, 2018, 12:17:32 PM
Quote from: tapas on July 19, 2018, 11:09:10 AM
I guess some people liked grinding for 100+ hours before they can get anywhere?

My question is why they wouldn't just play an mmo if they liked that sort of thing.

Congratulations, you've reduced it terribly like hundreds of posts before you.

It's more about the inclusion of danger from all sides, a constant challenge, a fully character-eating world.  That...100+ hours?  Before you can get anywhere?  Holy hyperbolic statement batman.  Get real.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 19, 2018, 11:21:19 AM
Or, you know, literally every single class other than Heavy Combat.

Fair enough, if that's the grand design that was come up with after two years of idea-mulling and playtesting.  But as with the rest of the changes...meh.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 19, 2018, 01:19:16 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 19, 2018, 12:17:32 PM
It's more about the inclusion of danger from all sides, a constant challenge, a fully character-eating world.  That...100+ hours?  Before you can get anywhere?  Holy hyperbolic statement batman.  Get real.

100 hours is only 4 days played. Taking that long for a warrior to reliably solo scrabs and raptors sounds about right to me for a city-based character that isn't constantly going out to skill up.

And for the thousandth time, there was never anything challenging or dangerous about these NPCs. As soon as you had a smidge of understanding the game, surviving and skilling up to the point where you can handle the NPCs the new heavy combat classes can now beat out of the gate was trivial. It was nothing but a test of time and patience, and a much longer delay to basic competence than any of the other classes had to deal with. Actually dangerous things are still just as dangerous.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: tapas on July 19, 2018, 01:22:36 PM
Whoah. Hostile. This wasn't an attack.

I think the issue has more to do with how we want to perceive the game world rather than the practicality of playing a game in such a world.

Sure we like the idea of a gritty, hard environment where only the toughest and most cunning survive.

Except in game, this translates to scrabs reeling you to death, deathfall rooms and a revolving door of characters until you get the right combination of stats, playtime and ooc know-how to get somewhere.

And of course don't forget that 100 hours is actually a fuckton of playtime for any game except armaggeddon. Which is why I brought out the mmo thing.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: frankjacoby on July 19, 2018, 01:27:55 PM
Here I was just trying to rp my character.

IJS
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Armaddict on July 19, 2018, 01:39:45 PM
QuoteAnd of course don't forget that 100 hours is actually a fuckton of playtime for any game except armaggeddon. Which is why I brought out the mmo thing.

Every other game also willingly accepts that people who have played longer know more about it and have a generally easier time in certain stages of the game, but Armageddon also is unique in that people like to use that as a need for a handicap or boost to equalize.  In reality, it doesn't make much sense, but we sure like to pile on that people who know things are just using an unfair advantage for...something.  Likewise, Armageddon is also played differently due to essentially infinite playthroughs; it's not a one-shot 'I've experienced the game, move on' type of deal.  It's a game that people try out, and if it tickles their fancy, they spend an 'actual fuckton' of hours playing it.

However, I didn't come in here all guns blazing and fire and brimstone.  I just said that X-D was right; there's a fair amount of NPC's that are meant to be a challenge for those in PvE engagement that can just be bypassed through class selection.  I have my own balance concerns and how they impact the game, including the sudden incentive for non-combat-heavy classes to feel like they have to grind in order to be safe from brand new characters and the design moving more in a 'death is bad, time in game being driven to improve is bad' direction.  That may not be the actual argument used, but in practice, it comes out with that being easily interchangeable with whatever is used.  However, those concerns have yet to have time to actually be seen.

Historically speaking, though, by the time such theories come to light, it's usually in a 'too late, not changing' setting.  I've been...disappointed, with the changes altogether, despite being pretty damn excited at the beginning.  It bleeds over into all the aspects of that change.  Maybe things will be corrected to maintain what worked for a long time, and maybe it won't.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Tekky on July 19, 2018, 07:18:28 PM
This discussion boils down to you guys not trusting yourself and other players to actually roleplay out stuff realistically. Perhaps you can cheese every scrab you see. So forth. Maybe you shouldn't, though, for "fun".
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 19, 2018, 10:19:05 PM
Tekky: Very negative on your part.  I've experience many good rp'rs on Arm, probably the best community I have seen as far as sticking to it and making it cool.

I think it boils down to this:  Since your new character comes out of the box a bit tougher, or more skillful you can spend the time on RP that you would have been on grinding that desired skill to make that ring, or kill that spider.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 19, 2018, 10:42:51 PM
What's more, our population of, what, 150-200 regular players is a pretty good representation of the handful of people who are ambitious/talented enough to make some waves in the puddle of their influence. Nearly every single commoner and grebber would get summarily munched if a scrab came upon them. But you wouldn't.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 20, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
Fighters don't get skinning? Lol
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 20, 2018, 12:17:05 PM
That makes sense to me.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 20, 2018, 12:37:46 PM
What am I supposed to do with the dead turaals?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: only_plays_tribals on July 20, 2018, 12:53:43 PM
many corpses of whip-tailed turaal are here, holding spice pipes while appearing to play cards.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 20, 2018, 01:20:33 PM
The woman in the turaal mask deals a card to a turaal corpse holding a spice pipe.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 20, 2018, 10:19:33 PM
Also noticed that fighter doesn't get the stun regen that warrior used to have. Don't know if that's deliberate.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 25, 2018, 01:02:21 PM
Kind of feel bad for the people who had their old style class for a little bit and are now heavily outclassed. I'm not even a full combat class and I was able to effortlessly curb stomp two critters whereas before each would have killed me with an equivalent class.

Maybe I dunno boost the poor old PCs off/def to equivalent base of a new class.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Cabooze on July 25, 2018, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 19, 2018, 10:42:51 PM
What's more, our population of, what, 150-200 regular players .....

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.  ???
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Nao on July 25, 2018, 01:48:59 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on July 25, 2018, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 19, 2018, 10:42:51 PM
What's more, our population of, what, 150-200 regular players .....

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.  ???
Quote from: Cabooze on July 25, 2018, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 19, 2018, 10:42:51 PM
What's more, our population of, what, 150-200 regular players .....

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.  ???

Unique logins (http://www.armageddon.org/updates/)
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Cabooze on July 25, 2018, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: Nao on July 25, 2018, 01:48:59 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on July 25, 2018, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 19, 2018, 10:42:51 PM
What's more, our population of, what, 150-200 regular players .....

Not sure where you're getting those numbers.  ???

Unique logins (http://www.armageddon.org/updates/)

Well color me a little impressed. As for the topic at hand, I've been of the strong opinion that we should still be allowed to select the legacy-guilds, even after this full release of the new ones.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: ShaiHulud on July 25, 2018, 11:54:08 PM
I think the classes are way over powered. Legacy characters cannot compete...not even close. I could see enough boost to take out the first ten days of grind...but these are coming out of the box like 30 day warriors. Jmho
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on July 26, 2018, 12:14:07 AM
I think its a worthwhile tradeoff for lifting the baseline competency of characters right out the gate, given that the player-base is older and has less time for the grind.

And I think saying that they're equivalent to 30 day warriors is overstating the issue. If anything, the new classes mitigate that initial window of vulnerability that used to compel me (n=1) to focus less on getting involved with clans and focus more on building my character's resilience above that of an over-ripe tomato. Stated differently, its easier for me to invest in building a character's identity and interact right out the gate.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: ShaiHulud on July 26, 2018, 12:51:03 AM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on July 25, 2018, 01:02:21 PM
Kind of feel bad for the people who had their old style class for a little bit and are now heavily outclassed. I'm not even a full combat class and I was able to effortlessly curb stomp two critters whereas before each would have killed me with an equivalent class.

Maybe I dunno boost the poor old PCs off/def to equivalent base of a new class.

This
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 26, 2018, 01:14:57 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 25, 2018, 11:54:08 PM
I think the classes are way over powered. Legacy characters cannot compete...not even close. I could see enough boost to take out the first ten days of grind...but these are coming out of the box like 30 day warriors. Jmho
No, they're not. More like 5 days. If that. Stats matter a lot. Maybe you ran into one with really good stats.

EDIT: 5 days of MeTekillot level powergaming, that is. Not quite X-D level powergaming.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Namino on July 26, 2018, 01:27:46 AM
Maybe I'm not following the issue here at all.

The stated purpose of the new classes was to provide people with a comparatively accelerated start to the old guilds. Based on the content of this thread, these classes are performing their purpose. I understand that it is disagreeable that the old guilds are lingering as well, but there was no way to roll this out without that happening unless you guys wanted a pbase wipe. Eventually, your legacy class will die and you will get to upgrade to a new class and it won't be an issue anymore. All of these people with access to new classes aren't special -- they just died or stored faster than you did. You too will die. You too will have a buff new class.

The fact that at 1920's formula car can't compete with a modern day F1 car isn't shocking. It's... how it works. The solution isn't to complain that modern F1 cars should be throttled, but simply trade in your old jank car for a new model. How long you can tolerate cruising around in your straight-eight tipo while this McLaren F1 GTR flies past you will vary based on how much you like your current car. But once you crash, you're going to hop into a GTR of your own so either put your car into the wall or do a few more laps. You're driving this thing, broooo.

The *real* issue is that our roads haven't been upgraded for our new cars. What used to be challenging tracks are pleasant drives for our swanky new vehicles. Which is *good*, because the point of these cars was to make those curves (scrab, et al) more manageable. The problem is that there aren't any new, challenging tracks being built that can really test the limits of what these new vehicles can do and give you a chance to open the throttle.

The challenge of scrabs and other things have been dimished but nothing is being moved in to replace them. As power creep continues and people train up their new characters without the sink of early-game scrab death, more and more people are going to fall into the black hole of having powerful characters and nothing to smash them against satsifyingly, save for mobiles with scripts (which is a poor solution but that's for a different thread).

I'm confident staff have thought of this. I'm sure something will happen as our new classes start to get buffer than the world was built for.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: ShaiHulud on July 26, 2018, 01:57:24 AM
Well said Namino...I see a wall ahead. Enjoyed the time driving this car. Shame to have to change lanes after putting the time in this seat...
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: seidhr on July 26, 2018, 07:40:58 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 25, 2018, 11:54:08 PM
I think the classes are way over powered. Legacy characters cannot compete...not even close. I could see enough boost to take out the first ten days of grind...but these are coming out of the box like 30 day warriors. Jmho

They're not, is the thing.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: KankWhisperer on July 26, 2018, 10:33:50 AM
*while beating critter to death with bare hands right out of the box*
Totally not OP. Git gud old classes.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Riev on July 26, 2018, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: seidhr on July 26, 2018, 07:40:58 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 25, 2018, 11:54:08 PM
I think the classes are way over powered. Legacy characters cannot compete...not even close. I could see enough boost to take out the first ten days of grind...but these are coming out of the box like 30 day warriors. Jmho

They're not, is the thing.

Despite your wonderful, staff-sponsored addition of "but no", I can't help but believe that ShaiHulud was utilizing slight hyperbole in saying "30day warriors".

The issue at hand SEEMS to be that new classes are able to start off in a better position than old classes (which, like Armaddict, I believe didn't fix anything, just a nerf to PvE really). So some people who were 10day warriors are seeing these new classes come out of the gate with different skills, different starts, and significantly different branches and Offense/Defense rates. So as was said, we are in our janky 80year old cars complaining about the new nitrus-boost vehicles kicking our asses.

The actual TOPIC, as discussed in the Original Post, was that the base offense and defense scores are higher. This makes combat skill gain more difficult, and the concern is that if you used to start at 5/100, and now you start at 20, is that still 20/100? Is it now 20/115? And will it make PvE a joke because of better rate gain and higher starting caps?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on July 26, 2018, 12:19:07 PM
Not really a nice, sugar coated way to say this, but some of you may think you know more than you know.

Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 25, 2018, 11:54:08 PM
I think the classes are way over powered. Legacy characters cannot compete...not even close. I could see enough boost to take out the first ten days of grind...but these are coming out of the box like 30 day warriors. Jmho

If we assume:

ranger = raider
assassin = enforcer
warrior = fighter

which seems reasonable, then the largest increase to offense or defense individually is 5.  It does not take 30 days to get 5.  It does not take 10 hours to get 5.  Unless you aren't engaging in combat, but that is a different issue than new class vs old class.  I routinely saw folks getting this much in a couple (2) days of playing or less, with the old classes.

Complimentary skills, like weapon skills, have also been boosted, like weapon skills.  Parry has been given at chargen whereas folks used to have to spend multiple days to branch it for assassins and rangers.  These all create synergy in combat.  Nothing has been boosted up some insane amount by itself though.

Quote from: MeTekillot on July 26, 2018, 01:14:57 AM
Stats matter a lot.

The new classes have different stat bonuses.  Better is a matter of perspective, but I think you will find them "better".  And no, before someone asks, staff already had the discussion months ago on whether to reveal them in the class help files, and the answer is no, we are not going to.

Quote from: Namino on July 26, 2018, 01:27:46 AM
As power creep continues and people train up their new characters without the sink of early-game scrab death, more and more people are going to fall into the black hole of having powerful characters and nothing to smash them against satsifyingly, save for mobiles with scripts (which is a poor solution but that's for a different thread).

Scripts or something else, it all boils down to the same thing.  NPCs need to be different than PCs, and typically gaining power from that difference, in order to be a challenge for PCs in combat at the high end.  And by challenge I mean more than just "wow that was an endless wave of X" and more actual good chance of the PC dying.

Quote from: Riev on July 26, 2018, 11:20:52 AM
The actual TOPIC, as discussed in the Original Post, was that the base offense and defense scores are higher. This makes combat skill gain more difficult, and the concern is that if you used to start at 5/100, and now you start at 20, is that still 20/100? Is it now 20/115? And will it make PvE a joke because of better rate gain and higher starting caps?

If this is still a concern, it is a concern because people were not paying attention.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 16, 2018, 12:41:52 PM
Max offense / defense hasn't changed
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Namino on July 26, 2018, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 26, 2018, 12:19:07 PM

Scripts or something else, it all boils down to the same thing.  NPCs need to be different than PCs, and typically gaining power from that difference, in order to be a challenge for PCs in combat at the high end.  And by challenge I mean more than just "wow that was an endless wave of X" and more actual good chance of the PC dying.

I couldn't agree more. While we've solved the issue of dying en masse to scrabs, I think we need to find a way to capture that feeling of going into a fight that could go either way.

My experience might be different than others, but once you get over the 'hump' in Armageddon, seeing 'a sinewy rantarri arrives from the west' goes from an oh shit moment to a 'ugh now I have to wash the blood off'. Now that people are starting halfway over the hump, I'm hoping we can recapture that ohshit moment so people who want that experience can go find it. Just don't put it right next to Allanak or we just have the scrab issue again except now it's G-rank scrab or whatever.

I said it was probably for another thread but I'm going for it. The problems with mobiles with scripts, in my testing, is their scripts do not respect player defense the way they ought to. This has consequences for both player validation as well as immersion. Player validation is dampened because it feels like no matter how hard you train, mobiles can just cheese you with their scripts and no prior training montage can alter the match-up. Victory or defeat is determined by RNGesus when it comes to how spammy the mob is feeling. I had a kryl hit me with spines NINE times in a single engagement, 12 damage average per spine = ~ 108 damage. 0 damage from its normal attacks because my defense was high enough to reach 100% evasion. Sort of invalidates the feeling of character growth when it has no impact on script storm.

The problem with immersion is that, for example, mekillots. You may be a character who can dodge mekillot claws with high degree of certainty. But its script is a bite attack. Due to scripts having limited interaction with defense, the mekillot bite hits far more reliably on high defense targets. The issue is that this cannot be explained ICly -- why you can anticipate claws all day long but a bite is this heat seeking missile that you cannot anticipate.

I'm happy to spin this derail off into a different topic. I'm always interested in discussing potential constructive tweaks and I think with the new classes the need for more critical commentary regarding player vs NPC combat is going to become paramount.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: WithSprinkles on July 26, 2018, 01:36:08 PM
Quote from: Namino on July 26, 2018, 12:58:44 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 26, 2018, 12:19:07 PM

Scripts or something else, it all boils down to the same thing.  NPCs need to be different than PCs, and typically gaining power from that difference, in order to be a challenge for PCs in combat at the high end.  And by challenge I mean more than just "wow that was an endless wave of X" and more actual good chance of the PC dying.
The problem with immersion is that, for example, mekillots. You may be a character who can dodge mekillot claws with high degree of certainty. But its script is a bite attack. Due to scripts having limited interaction with defense, the mekillot bite hits far more reliably on high defense targets. The issue is that this cannot be explained ICly -- why you can anticipate claws all day long but a bite is this heat seeking missile that you cannot anticipate.

So.. Mekillot attacks be like?

(http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/i-have-a-big-head-and-little-arms-gif-5.gif)

Sorry! I won't derail anymore!
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Delirium on July 26, 2018, 02:07:08 PM
Quote from: Namino on July 26, 2018, 12:58:44 PM
The problems with mobiles with scripts, in my testing, is their scripts do not respect player defense the way they ought to.

So much this. I can see an argument for AOE attacks being harder to avoid, but those kryl scripts are a huge pet peeve of mine. We should probably make a new thread though.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Armaddict on July 26, 2018, 08:55:24 PM
I'm...confused.  Didn't you state earlier in the thread that there was a very perceivable difference in starting ability of the new classes to mitigate the grind feeling?

Now you're saying that at most, the difference is attainable in less than 10 hours.

This is not a complaint or a 'gotcha', this is me receiving mixed messages, likely from some other tidbit of information I missed along the way.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on July 26, 2018, 10:02:28 PM
There is a difference.  It is not from offense and defense alone.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on July 26, 2018, 10:50:10 PM
Are there class differences in combat ability besides just the typical number run of offense/defense, skills, and stats?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: daughterofauset on July 30, 2018, 06:51:02 PM
The only new class I've actually played is artisan. I don't know what, if anything, they are missing from old school merchant guild, but I am pretty damn happy that you don't have to hit the old forage branch to get any useful and interesting craft skills. That alone is enough to get a big old thumbs up from me, but the merchant was always my favorite of the old guilds, and this seems a step up from that in that you don't have to manufacture a reason to forage to get to any of the crafts I liked.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on July 30, 2018, 10:38:21 PM
Quote from: daughterofauset on July 30, 2018, 06:51:02 PM
The only new class I've actually played is artisan. I don't know what, if anything, they are missing from old school merchant guild, but I am pretty damn happy that you don't have to hit the old forage branch to get any useful and interesting craft skills. That alone is enough to get a big old thumbs up from me, but the merchant was always my favorite of the old guilds, and this seems a step up from that in that you don't have to manufacture a reason to forage to get to any of the crafts I liked.

Would you keep the same opinion knowing that if you didnt add 'custom crafter' subguild, you wont be able to MC any of your crafts?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: daughterofauset on July 30, 2018, 10:59:32 PM
Yes.

Said artisan character actually wound up with that subguild explicitly /to/ be able to master craft.

Am I less than thrilled that in theory this let's any guild with a crafting skill make custom crafts? A bit. But with that said, my first character was made in 2006, and I love crafting... But I have never once actually had a custom item in game even with dozens of maxed out merchants under my belt. So for me, its a moot point and literally does not keep me from enjoying crafter's at all.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on July 31, 2018, 12:30:16 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 26, 2018, 08:55:24 PM
I'm...confused.  Didn't you state earlier in the thread that there was a very perceivable difference in starting ability of the new classes to mitigate the grind feeling?

Now you're saying that at most, the difference is attainable in less than 10 hours.

This is not a complaint or a 'gotcha', this is me receiving mixed messages, likely from some other tidbit of information I missed along the way.

I rolled one of the new "mixed" classes, and its starting combat ability is basically the same as its old equivalent class, with the exception of starting with parry, which very quickly gives you much, much better defense.  I'm not noticing much of a difference beyond that, but I did get a pretty shitty stat roll.

I guess I'll have to check back in after playing a combat-heavy class with good stats.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on July 31, 2018, 12:42:11 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 31, 2018, 12:30:16 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 26, 2018, 08:55:24 PM
I'm...confused.  Didn't you state earlier in the thread that there was a very perceivable difference in starting ability of the new classes to mitigate the grind feeling?

Now you're saying that at most, the difference is attainable in less than 10 hours.

This is not a complaint or a 'gotcha', this is me receiving mixed messages, likely from some other tidbit of information I missed along the way.

I rolled one of the new "mixed" classes, and its starting combat ability is basically the same as its old equivalent class, with the exception of starting with parry, which very quickly gives you much, much better defense.  I'm not noticing much of a difference beyond that, but I did get a pretty shitty stat roll.

I guess I'll have to check back in after playing a combat-heavy class with good stats.

Uh-oh. Synthesis is playing a Miscreant. Put all your coins in the bank.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Wday on August 02, 2018, 10:41:40 PM
After testing ICLY and watching closely an old class of many days played can not compare to a brand new-ish new character in combat at all. Maybe give the old class a chance to pick a new class without having to kill off the character so it's playable?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Delirium on August 02, 2018, 11:08:14 PM
Honestly... what's not playable about the same classes we've been playing for 20+ years?

They're a little less immediately powerful? Meh. Play it to the hilt anyway, you'll eventually die or store regardless.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Aruven on August 02, 2018, 11:44:26 PM
I like the idea of a little less grind, for my time and the RP.

I've only recently rolled one of the new classes, TBD on the variance between a legacy or that on my end.

This whole thread is interesting for me, because it took me years of play to find the fine line between RP and the way combat actually works out. For instance, getting into a fight one on one for example. Some people RP out like that's it, you're either going to win or lose. There's emoting, there's talking, and someone dies or someone shows mercy. OR, stats matter even further because one or both players aren't taking hits. They're fleeing out between swings, throwing, coming back in, fleeing out, and its pure combat using the whole range of skills in the skill list.

I had always been of the opinion that the storytelling came first, the stats were just a guideline for how confident or able your character played out whatever combat they engaged in. After some years I shifted my combat roles over in approach once I started to learn just how powerful skill levels made a long lived character vs a new one. I had never been a hardcore PK type and usually my first real instance of combat back in the day would result in me dying, fleeing, or it being some byn like zerg RPT where me and 10+ people were annihilating the same target. 

I like the changes simply because guild sniffing is reduced at the current time to a certain extent in some ways, though as always that'll change as time goes on.

TLDR: How heavily does the class change influence RP and the gameworld ultimately, happy for the progression and changes, evolved my focus around the mechanics of the game.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Aruven on August 02, 2018, 11:46:04 PM
And to X-D's (Welcome back!) original observation ;

As more of a storyteller and less of a PK type ultimately i've never failed to find an npc creature or race that wasn't capable of absolutely destroying me in any situation. I see the merit of the concern though and it'll be interesting to see how it plays out !
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 03, 2018, 01:02:36 AM
I think the most important consequence of this change (specifically, lifting the floor on off/deff) will be that serial combat-character players will see the need to find skilled opponents in other players - as opposed NPCs - to see their characters reach higher ends of proficiency.

More can be done in this regard, but I think this is an appropriate start.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 08, 2018, 04:25:34 AM
Second take:  combat proficiency advancing much faster than normal, even with garbage stats...against mobs, anyway.  It's to the point where even with my weapon skills at novice, I'm concerned that it may be impossible to train them up much more via mobs/NPCs.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: yousuff on August 08, 2018, 04:05:27 PM
I think the most glaring oversight is the fact the soldier class doesn't get city scan/listen and only gets subdue to a level of journeyman. If it were up to me, I'd lower archery/crossbow to advanced, give them ride to advanced, buff their subdue to at least advanced, and give them advanced/master scan/listen.

For a soldier in the city to actually does his job, likely working vs the city classes, eg enforcer, miscreant, infiltrator, all of which get sneak/hide to a minimum of advanced; and the fact they get no way to counter this is a farce. Also hack/riposte should branch off of parry, duel wield or twohanded, not a weapons skill as to get them to advanced is near unheard of. Also considering a soldier (at least if obeying Allanaki soldier NPC logic) tries to use non lethal force firstly (subdue) by trying to emulate them with only a journeyman level of skill you'll find yourself an ineffective, at best, soldier. The ability to ride is a bit iffy, if it's felt to be too much I reckon it's alright to sacrifice it to play a city-bound soldier which is probably standard. To be fair I'd also give them fair stamina regen too considering it's a trait I'd expect from a soldier, similar to the scout guild.

Edit; Just to add, soldier as is, is a straight downgrade from fighter with the ability to fletch, craft weapons and bandage far from making it up. Their two defining skills (hack/riposte) are also locked behind weapon skills branching making them near impossible to ever actually see.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 08, 2018, 04:22:40 PM
The typical soldier in the AoD is not a policeman.

If you want to be Eliot Ness, you should take an appropriate extended subguild.

That being said, I agree that the "Soldier" class is pretty weird.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 08, 2018, 07:27:22 PM
Reiterating the point: any branching from weapon skills (enforcer and soldier) is a flaw in the skill tree, IMO, because weapon skills progression currently is dysfunctionally capped at low level unless in extremely contrived conditions.

Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on August 08, 2018, 07:37:27 PM
And you would be pretty much wrong on that point.  Because part of what we did when we did the new classes was move some of the data into a database, from flat files.  Which allowed us to set custom branch points, rather than have them be per a formula that applied to all skills.

Which has been done, for all the enforcer and soldier weapon skills that currently branch into something else, for months now.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: yousuff on August 08, 2018, 07:45:48 PM
Would staff be willing to disclose what level of ability must be reached before these skills can be branched then? Not to seem demanding or anything, but perhaps it should have been disclosed that a journeyman level or whatever needs to be reached in a skill before it branches considering the transparency in the branching helpfiles now available, assuming the point of that was to put new players on an even playing field with regards to knowledge about skills and the nuances of the game's skill progression :)
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 08, 2018, 07:58:25 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 08, 2018, 07:37:27 PM
And you would be pretty much wrong on that point.  Because part of what we did when we did the new classes was move some of the data into a database, from flat files.  Which allowed us to set custom branch points, rather than have them be per a formula that applied to all skills.

Which has been done, for all the enforcer and soldier weapon skills that currently branch into something else, for months now.

Glad to hear it. Thanks for clarifying!
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on August 08, 2018, 08:03:36 PM
I guess it is a level playing field now because no one knows?

There wasn't a good way really.  Most are like they used to be, unless there were going to obviously be a pain point.  If it seemed reasonable for it to not be a pain point, I dropped the branch point.

Enforcers have a ton of power if they branch their weapon skills, so it is still high.  Just below the point warriors branch advanced weapon skills.  Soldiers, on the other hand, don't face too much of a struggle.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 08, 2018, 08:35:49 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 08, 2018, 08:03:36 PM
I guess it is a level playing field now because no one knows?

There wasn't a good way really.  Most are like they used to be, unless there were going to obviously be a pain point.  If it seemed reasonable for it to not be a pain point, I dropped the branch point.

Enforcers have a ton of power if they branch their weapon skills, so it is still high.  Just below the point warriors branch advanced weapon skills.  Soldiers, on the other hand, don't face too much of a struggle.

I can appreciate that soldiers have less of a climb.

I think my persisting concern about enforcers is based on my characters as a sample: I pretty much only play long-lived-ish combat characters, and I haven't had a character get beyond journeyman weapon skills in years. In my last character - who I presume would be more relevant because he lived after Nergal's weapon skill code changes - he reached journeyman in his weapon skills relatively early in his lifetime, and never really moved beyond that point, even with 15+ days of playtime after reaching that point and developing into a significant combatant in every other domain. And that's been pretty typical in my long line of combat characters.

That's clearly anecdotal, and its not my intention to be contrary. I just tend to me quite the monomaniac in terms of my mundane combat characters, and I can't really know any of the other data points.

And I do recognize that starting at apprentice for weapon skills changes the equation somewhat.

I'll continue my play-test, and I suppose that will tell me more.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Namino on August 09, 2018, 12:56:11 AM
My last two warriors both branched advanced weapons. One around the 30 day mark and the other around the 25 day mark. The latter was the only active member in an iso clan with literally nothing to do all day but work up skills.

So 725 and 600 hours played respectively.

Assuming that Enforcer branches even 25% lower than this, that's 543 and 450 hours respectively. Not what I would consider very friendly to the casual players this class change was designed to cater to.

As Synthesis has alluded to, the increased starting point for offense and defense for these classes limits what PVE content is useful for them. The PVE content in Armageddon was already badly anemic before the class change, which resulted in hordes of players having to put themselves in

Quote from: Sunburned on August 08, 2018, 07:27:22 PM
extremely contrived conditions.

in order to continue improving their skills. Now that we are starting people off closer to the edge of despair (that is, the point of character progression where it is mandatory to lay in a field one-handing against four turaals to get any skill up), we're going to see a lot of complaints, especially now if multiple classes have skills gated behind weapon skills (whereas it was just warriors before).
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 09, 2018, 01:51:00 AM
Quote from: Namino on August 09, 2018, 12:56:11 AM
edge of despair 

It finally has a name worthy of the cumulative frustration. Well done.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on August 09, 2018, 02:13:10 AM
Its pretty much just Enforcers that need to despair.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Namino on August 09, 2018, 02:46:08 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 09, 2018, 02:13:10 AM
Its pretty much just Enforcers that need to despair.

While I agree with the sentiment that Enforcers have it worse because their branch points are locked behind the edge of despair, I wouldn't say it's just them. Even if you're not actively seeking a branch point, being unable to improve yourself is still an issue, for both gameplay and roleplay reasons.

For gameplay, the issue is obvious. We have hypothetical growth curves defined by skills (ie, a skill may cap at '90') that are not reasonably achievable through IC means (without serious shenanigans, you're going to level off far underneath the cap). At best, you might be in a sparring clan with one other insane son-of-a-bitch willing to trek beyond the edge of despair alongside you. While roleplay is the central point of Armageddon, it is a MUD and not a MUSH, so character skills also play a strong supporting role. Currently, the system by which many (principally combat) skills are increased is notoriously unergonomic. Ironically, the lackluster design behind this actually hurts roleplay more than it helps, as people are often forced to train their characters for a great many hours when they could be involving themselves in plots and roleplay instead.

From a roleplay standpoint, the common argument to this is that people shouldn't care so much about improvement, but that always makes me smack my gob. Considering anyone with a hobby or skill-based employment IRL, would it ever make sense to hear a boxer say they have no need to train? Or a marksman give up on improving their shooting? Many characters in Armageddon stake their very livelihoods and lives themselves on their ability to hunt and kill wildlife, or other people. Would it really be in character for these people to pat their hands together and say they're done trying to get better at the skills they rely on every day of their lives?

In reality, the current system just forces players to choose between two poor options: 1) unrealistically have your character become apathetic towards self-improvement or 2) unrealistically lay down in a field with four turaal bouncing all around them.

Now that the offense/defense overhaul is in place, more and more people are going to get to the point where they have to make the above decision.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Nao on August 09, 2018, 02:58:16 AM
Quote from: Namino on August 09, 2018, 02:46:08 AM
In reality, the current system just forces players to choose between two poor options: 1) unrealistically have your character become apathetic towards self-improvement or 2) unrealistically lay down in a field with four turaal bouncing all around them.

What about 3) Find a sparring partner ?
It's in-character, and it's completely realistic that training will actually help you improve yourself, while beating random beasts to death will not.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Namino on August 09, 2018, 02:59:37 AM
QuoteLike all arguments, there are caveats, the most obvious of which is that this document is ignoring the role encompassed by players training other players. Sparring clans or simply training together in general circumvents this dearth of reasonable challenges, as both characters will gradually improve in step with each other, leading to a more natural sensation of growth as 'cohorts' of new characters help one another improve while being assisted by veteran characters. However, I do not believe a weakness in one component of the game is nullified by a strength in a different component. Rather, it should be a goal to modify the PVE content of Armageddon using the 'sparring' model of progressive, incremental growth. This will expand the variety of available, meaningful content that will aid in player retention and engagement (ie, you don't always have to spar to improve, you don't always have to paradoxically hunt turaal, you can challenge your character's limits and still improve).

Adding: The issue is more subtle with sparring, but still exists as two characters stand in the ring, one holding their weapon in one hand to deliberately handicap themselves, the other defending two handed for up to 20-30 OOC minutes at advanced levels of skill. It's better than having to lay in a field with tuural, but it's still not good or sensible by any means.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 09, 2018, 04:02:08 AM
I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Namino on August 09, 2018, 04:06:41 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 09, 2018, 04:02:08 AM
I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

It's true. My statements are more broadly aimed at the nature of coded character growth overall rather than bemoaning the inability for Enforcers to achieve effortlessly delete people tier.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 09, 2018, 04:12:30 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 09, 2018, 04:02:08 AM
I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.

Assuming Thug still exists as a sub by the time the work is through, you can have access to the arguably more dangerous branch from day 0 with no CGP expenditure.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 09, 2018, 04:18:51 AM
Quote from: Sunburned on August 09, 2018, 04:12:30 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 09, 2018, 04:02:08 AM
I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.

Assuming Thug still exists as a sub by the time the work is through, you can have access to the arguably more dangerous branch from day 0 with no CGP expenditure.

Yeah.  Shit's wild, yo.  It'll be interesting to see how many people go for it.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 09, 2018, 04:25:31 AM
"So, uh, what kind of talent do you have to offer us?"
"I kill people."
"...anything else?"
"I make people sleep and draw dicks on their faces."
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Is Friday on August 09, 2018, 01:54:09 PM
Military clans should reward life long service and promotions with NPC teach lessons from master warriors. Do a good job? RP and lead a clan? These should be the route to convince an organization to invest further in their training. Let's encourage high end warriors to be roleplayers who give back to the clan, not isolate themselves.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: only_plays_tribals on August 09, 2018, 02:45:15 PM
replace clan sparring dummies with absolutely incredible agility sparring elf slave?

edit: lol I know. But seriously though.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 09, 2018, 06:03:28 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 09, 2018, 04:02:08 AM
I'm actually fine with Enforcers being difficult to branch organically, because...c'mon..."warrior with backstab" has literally been the "nightmare scenario" meme for as long as I can remember, when discussions of OP-ness arose.

Hell, for 2 cgp, you don't even have to branch backstab.  You just have to pick a heavily redundant subguild.  Choices, choices.

There's also a difference between "difficult to branch" in normal play versus requiring ridiculous strategies implemented for hundreds of hours.

There are plenty of examples of skills that require lots of commitment to develop. If you wish to improve weapon skills, however, you're deciding to make a significant compromise in your entire approach to playing the game, as Namino already described.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Inks on August 12, 2018, 04:43:23 PM
The game seems a lot easier now.

Skilling up weapon skills is signifigantly harder.

Filthy casuals.

Also I have never managed to branch off weapon skills, apart from knife making off assassin one time during twink Kurac golden age. I am sad.

Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on August 12, 2018, 05:04:52 PM
If I understand correctly, it is no longer a given that skills branch at near max level.  Who knows, maybe enforcers branch skills at high journeyman? And the fact that they can 'master' weapons. What if weapon skills had no caps. What if they can be infinitely raised? Just with diminishing returns/increased difficulty. What then? Do people then spend 10 hrs a day sparring a horde of wezers still? Some weird arms race.

I understand wanting to branch that backstab, because your chara concept depends on it. But if it branched early and you are already a scary badass, what exactly is the incentive to put yourself in unlikely situations just to get that skill even higher.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 05:04:52 PM
If I understand correctly, it is no longer a given that skills branch at near max level.  Who knows, maybe enforcers branch skills at high journeyman? And the fact that they can 'master' weapons. What if weapon skills had no caps. What if they can be infinitely raised? Just with diminishing returns/increased difficulty. What then? Do people then spend 10 hrs a day sparring a horde of wezers still? Some weird arms race.

I understand wanting to branch that backstab, because your chara concept depends on it. But if it branched early and you are already a scary badass, what exactly is the incentive to put yourself in unlikely situations just to get that skill even higher.

Brokkr seemed to suggest that backstab/sap just a little below where advanced weapons branched for warriors.

Since I began playing this game in 2007ish, I have branched advanced weapon skills once on a character, and that was actually made easier because certain coded aspects of combat while riding hadn't been changed yet.

The degree of deviation from "normal play" that was required to branch was enough that I resolved that it was not worth it, as advanced weapon skills were functionally impossible to train to the point of exceeding normal weapon skills (with exception of 1 character that I've witnessed over the course of the last 11 years, who utilized a time-generous master ranger to circumvent the "edge of despair").

My concern is that a much more valuable incentive has been placed on training weapon skills (at least for enforcers and soldiers), and even if its within the realm of possibility of getting there, I would reckon that the path there is extremely narrow.

I'm not sure why the assessment of the situation for a lot of folks breaks down into: make it hard, or everybody will walking around with a nuke in their back pocket. There are plenty of examples of skills that attainable through long-term commitment to regular play, without being railroaded into strange tactics. For dual wield, for example, used to be the primary branch for parry for rangers, and was a hard-earned through regular combat, but well worth the effort. The time investment also seemed duly appropriate for the return: I rarely ever saw parry branching below 10 days played, even with hard play. And still, you could count on it happening if you put in the work, regardless of your clan context... and the achievement still wasn't common.

Its always left me scratching my head why weapon skills couldn't be the same. Hell, even if it took longer than the parry-branch I just cited, I'd still be happy, as long as the progression was rewarded in multiple clan contexts. Even if people didn't feel comfortable with Enforcers branching before 25+ days of playtime, I'd understand and be cool with it, as long as you didn't have to take up ridiculous tactics to finish out your weapon skills end-game.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 05:41:40 PM
Quote from: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 05:04:52 PM
If I understand correctly, it is no longer a given that skills branch at near max level.  Who knows, maybe enforcers branch skills at high journeyman? And the fact that they can 'master' weapons. What if weapon skills had no caps. What if they can be infinitely raised? Just with diminishing returns/increased difficulty. What then? Do people then spend 10 hrs a day sparring a horde of wezers still? Some weird arms race.

I understand wanting to branch that backstab, because your chara concept depends on it. But if it branched early and you are already a scary badass, what exactly is the incentive to put yourself in unlikely situations just to get that skill even higher.

Brokkr seemed to suggest that backstab/sap just a little below where advanced weapons branched for warriors.

Since I began playing this game in 2007ish, I have branched advanced weapon skills once on a character, and that was actually made easier because certain coded aspects of combat while riding hadn't been changed yet.

The degree of deviation from "normal play" that was required to branch was enough that I resolved that it was not worth it, as advanced weapon skills were functionally impossible to train to the point of exceeding normal weapon skills (with exception of 1 character that I've witnessed over the course of the last 11 years, who utilized a time-generous master ranger to circumvent the "edge of despair").

My concern is that a much more valuable incentive has been placed on training weapon skills (at least for enforcers and soldiers), and even if its within the realm of possibility of getting there, I would reckon that the path there is extremely narrow.

I'm not sure why the assessment of the situation for a lot of folks breaks down into: make it hard, or everybody will walking around with a nuke in their back pocket. There are plenty of examples of skills that attainable through long-term commitment to regular play, without being railroaded into strange tactics. For dual wield, for example, used to be the primary branch for parry for rangers, and was a hard-earned through regular combat, but well worth the effort. The time investment also seemed duly appropriate for the return: I rarely ever saw parry branching below 10 days played, even with hard play. And still, you could count on it happening if you put in the work, regardless of your clan context... and the achievement still wasn't common.

Its always left me scratching my head why weapon skills couldn't be the same. Hell, even if it took longer than the parry-branch I just cited, I'd still be happy, as long as the progression was rewarded in multiple clan contexts. Even if people didn't feel comfortable with Enforcers branching before 25+ days of playtime, I'd understand and be cool with it, as long as you didn't have to take up ridiculous tactics to finish out your weapon skills end-game.

Play an Infiltrator. Poof, you don't have to branch backstab.

Enforcers, without backstab, are still badass warriors that with city stealth skills. This alone required extended subguilds in the past.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 06:09:06 PM
Choosing a different class isn't a fix to a **potentially dysfunctional branch point in another class.

I play my characters for, on average, over 2+ RL years. I can usually count on that character maturing far past their early advantages, and choose classes also based on their end-game potential, as they were designed. I don't think I'm asking too much to be able to see an Enforcer at its full intended potential, with enough time.

(**I say potentially, because I haven't seen where the actual branch point is, yet.)
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 06:19:15 PM
Quote from: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 06:09:06 PM
Choosing a different class isn't a fix to a **potentially dysfunctional branch point in another class.

I play my characters for, on average, over 2+ RL years. I can usually count on that character maturing far past their early advantages, and choose classes also based on their end-game potential, as they were designed. I don't think I'm asking too much to be able to see an Enforcer at its full intended potential, with enough time.

(**I say potentially, because I haven't seen where the actual branch point is, yet.)

If the class doesn't work for you and your concept, it's not broken, it just doesn't work for you. So, you should pick a class that does.

Pitch me a concept that requires an Enforcer class with branched backstab that:
     a) Infiltrator couldn't fill just fine
                -or-
     b) The PC could serve their purpose without the backstab

Backstab is not the defining trait of the Enforcer class, city stealth + warrior suite is what makes it unique.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on August 12, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
Sunburned. The key of the issue is not that you cant play infiltrator instead of an enforcer.


The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill. The characters may choose to do so for some whatever reason, okey. But when the coding of the game is such that the only way one gains an access to a skill is via doing something entirely out of character. THAT is bad design.  It doesnt matter which skill, or which guild. Only that one should not need to be hunting gortoks in a dark cave for no other reason, but to get a single fail. Only because not a single other, saner option is available.  I can understand people doing weird stuff, because in game narrative removed potential options from them. (solo roles, area locked roles, etc). But the option should always be a possibility, otherwise the code is flawed.

Having said that. I'm not convinced that there is such a requirement to do weird stuff to branch these skills. Either the change that helps people learn weapon skills/offense/defense when fighting opponents who already have such high skills is enough to be able to achieve the branching point. Or the branching point is lower then what we think. Or ... or well. I dont know. Is it? I guess we'll find out eventually. I'm assuming backstab is ment to be a very very end game, result of an enforcer spending too much time with other shadies and eventually picking up some tricks.

I can only assume someone played an enforcer during beta and branched his skills no problem. Otherwise, what was the point of the beta?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 06:41:58 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill.

If it doesn't make sense to put your PC in the situation to raise the skill then perhaps the PC doesn't need that skill raised?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 06:42:53 PM
Quote from: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 06:19:15 PM

If the class doesn't work for you and your concept, it's not broken, it just doesn't work for you. So, you should pick a class that does.

Pitch me a concept that requires an Enforcer class with branched backstab that:
     a) Infiltrator couldn't fill just fine
                -or-
     b) The PC could serve their purpose without the backstab

Backstab is not the defining trait of the Enforcer class, city stealth + warrior suite is what makes it unique.

Character concept is generally a separate discussion, since it could be argued that, with a few exceptions, that class does not define the concept. For instance, I once knew of a superbly bad-ass Byn Sergeant who was actually a covert whiran (and obviously was never able to make use of those abilities within the clan). Admittedly, having some alignment between concept and the mechanics of your class help, a lot.

Mechanically, backstab and sap -are- the defining trait of Enforcer, because you cannot achieve the warrior skills + master cap sap/backstab with any other combination of class and subguild, karma'd or otherwise. You can, however, have city stealth + warrior skills if you simply combined Fighter or Raider with rogue, cutpurse, or slipknife.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 06:46:03 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
Sunburned. The key of the issue is not that you cant play infiltrator instead of an enforcer.


The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill. The characters may choose to do so for some whatever reason, okey. But when the coding of the game is such that the only way one gains an access to a skill is via doing something entirely out of character. THAT is bad design.  It doesnt matter which skill, or which guild. Only that one should not need to be hunting gortoks in a dark cave for no other reason, but to get a single fail. Only because not a single other, saner option is available.  I can understand people doing weird stuff, because in game narrative removed potential options from them. (solo roles, area locked roles, etc). But the option should always be a possibility, otherwise the code is flawed.

Having said that. I'm not convinced that there is such a requirement to do weird stuff to branch these skills. Either the change that helps people learn weapon skills/offense/defense when fighting opponents who already have such high skills is enough to be able to achieve the branching point. Or the branching point is lower then what we think. Or ... or well. I dont know. Is it? I guess we'll find out eventually. I'm assuming backstab is ment to be a very very end game, result of an enforcer spending too much time with other shadies and eventually picking up some tricks.

I can only assume someone played an enforcer during beta and branched his skills no problem. Otherwise, what was the point of the beta?

I agree with you 100%, and I'm still hopeful that somehow this issue is avoided in this new classes. And I acknowledge that I don't have the current data - only what my play experience has been in the past, before these new classes.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 06:42:53 PM
Mechanically, backstab and sap -are- the defining trait of Enforcer, because you cannot achieve the warrior skills + master cap sap/backstab with any other combination of class and subguild, karma'd or otherwise. You can, however, have city stealth + warrior skills if you simply combined Fighter or Raider with rogue, cutpurse, or slipknife.

Well we can agree to disagree on what the class defining traits are. I would say a class-defining trait is what it gets without subguilds. Doesn't really matter how we see that one.

But to point - if your opinion is that it's too hard to get weapon skills up to 'master' - then Infiltrator should be fine at advanced cap.

I'm glad that it's going to be hard as fuck to pair up master backstab with max combat and weapon skills. If I ever want to do it myself on a PC, I'll figure it out then, knowing that it's going to be really, really, understandably hard.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on August 12, 2018, 07:08:15 PM
Quote from: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 06:41:58 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill.

If it doesn't make sense to put your PC in the situation to raise the skill then perhaps the PC doesn't need that skill raised?

Roughouse. May it be possible that you're arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean ... this is a brand new change in code. It 'could' potentially be flawed and therefore 'should' be discussed.

Now that old merchant guild is defunct, I can say this.  Before. For merchants to have skills such as basket weaving, stone crafting, jewelry making, tool making, and instrument crafting, the merchant had to go outside and practice their forage to journeyman.  They had to go outside due to lack of forage spots within the cities.  Yes. Even the bloodied Kadius, who supposed to have only seen raw sand from the window of the Argosy as it travelled across the Known, escorted by a troop of Byn and Falcons. They too, needed to go outside and dig rocks.

Or ... by your logic, they didnt need to be able to know how to craft jewelry? Let's not argue for the sake of argument please. Or are you being serious in your assertion?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 07:22:56 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 07:08:15 PM
Quote from: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 06:41:58 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
The key of the issue is that nothing in the game should require placing your character in unreasonable situations, purely for raising of the skill.

If it doesn't make sense to put your PC in the situation to raise the skill then perhaps the PC doesn't need that skill raised?

Roughouse. May it be possible that you're arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean ... this is a brand new change in code. It 'could' potentially be flawed and therefore 'should' be discussed.

Now that old merchant guild is defunct, I can say this.  Before. For merchants to have skills such as basket weaving, stone crafting, jewelry making, tool making, and instrument crafting, the merchant had to go outside and practice their forage to journeyman.  They had to go outside due to lack of forage spots within the cities.  Yes. Even the bloodied Kadius, who supposed to have only seen raw sand from the window of the Argosy as it travelled across the Known, escorted by a troop of Byn and Falcons. They too, needed to go outside and dig rocks.

Or ... by your logic, they didnt need to be able to know how to craft jewelry? Let's not argue for the sake of argument please. Or are you being serious in your assertion?

I think one of the challenges with discussing this is that although the special challenges with improving weapon skills apply broadly, they were brought up specifically as it applies to Enforcer branching.

If, hypothetically, the player base had been able to vote on the possibility of a warrior+backstab, I'm guessing that perceived consolidation of power would not have passed a popularity contest, as the number of players with different play styles exceeds the number that would be interested in playing enforcers.

Thus, anyone not playing an Enforcer is understandably not in a hurry to see them walking around at full bridle, and from that particular angle, they likely view weapon skills as just fine the way they are.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 07:43:31 PM
Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 07:08:15 PM
Roughouse. May it be possible that you're arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean ... this is a brand new change in code. It 'could' potentially be flawed and therefore 'should' be discussed.

Admittedly that may be part of it. I'm feeling a little sassy and I have pretty uninterrupted evening :)
Changing things and getting people to 'make-it-work' is how I keep bread on the table... so maybe I'm just stuck in that gear!

But seriously, I really don't see an issue with Enforcer as is. I've seen the new guilds in the game, I see that it will be very difficult to branch an Enforcer to backstab, but most definitely possible. I also think that if you really need backstab for your PC, then choose a guild that you know will give it to you.

Quote from: Dar on August 12, 2018, 07:08:15 PM
Now that old merchant guild is defunct, I can say this.  Before. For merchants to have skills such as basket weaving, stone crafting, jewelry making, tool making, and instrument crafting, the merchant had to go outside and practice their forage to journeyman.  They had to go outside due to lack of forage spots within the cities.  Yes. Even the bloodied Kadius, who supposed to have only seen raw sand from the window of the Argosy as it travelled across the Known, escorted by a troop of Byn and Falcons. They too, needed to go outside and dig rocks.

Or ... by your logic, they didnt need to be able to know how to craft jewelry? Let's not argue for the sake of argument please. Or are you being serious in your assertion?

I don't think this is apples-to-apples.
     - We're talking about one skill - backstab - not an entire skill tree.
     - The skill trees are posted so you know what class to pick to get the skill you want - if that skill is backstab, then take a class that starts with it, or use a subguild.
     - Branching crafting skills and mastering weapon skills don't belong in the same conversation.
     - Merchants didn't have a choice - one class, one skill tree. This is why we have the new system, you have more options for what skills you start with. If it doesn't make sense for your PC to grind out combat to branch backstab, then you should pick a class that starts with it. There are three classes with backstab, and a subguild with backstab, depending on what level you need it at, and how you want to get to it. Options baby.

If you look at the class for what it is, instead of what you want it to be, what I'm saying makes sense. If I could change Enforcer, I'd go for master stealth, Sunburned wants easier backstab branching, someone else might think it's bullshit that Enforcer doesn't get poison.... my point is that something is not broken just because it doesn't perfectly suit you and how you think you should be able to get what you want.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 12, 2018, 07:46:27 PM
(aside) Actually, there are (were?) plenty of crafting skills based on your forage skill where you could raise your forage skill through crafting failures, instead of digging for rocks.  E.g. I think all of the "break large rocks into smaller rocks" crafts are forage-based.

That being said...the point remains:  we shouldn't have to place our characters into preposterous situations simply to advance.  If you want a (master) weapon skill to take 20 days played to get to, that's fine with me, but you should be able to do it via sparring or other regular behavior, not by seeking out the most agile mobs in the Known and fighting them at night inside a tremendous sandstorm.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 08:06:09 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 12, 2018, 07:46:27 PM
(aside) Actually, there are (were?) plenty of crafting skills based on your forage skill where you could raise your forage skill through crafting failures, instead of digging for rocks.  E.g. I think all of the "break large rocks into smaller rocks" crafts are forage-based.

That being said...the point remains:  we shouldn't have to place our characters into preposterous situations simply to advance.  If you want a (master) weapon skill to take 20 days played to get to, that's fine with me, but you should be able to do it via sparring or other regular behavior, not by seeking out the most agile mobs in the Known and fighting them at night inside a tremendous sandstorm.

I don't think any soldier/fighter/warrior - whatever - throughout history has been considered a 'master' without some hardcore, real combat experience.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 08:11:36 PM
Have you branched an advanced weapon skill, roughneck?

Synthesis isn't talking about just seeking out tougher mobs and fighting them in difficult conditions.

He's talking about straight-up, 100% twink-fest tactics. Lying on the ground and fighting rodents, for example, in a handicapped weapon style. The rodent fighting presents zero threat to the health of that warrior, and paradoxically actually has much better returns than riding out in a storm and being willing to faces desert tarantulas, or fighting another seasoned warrior.

Trust me - there's nothing intrinsically "hardcore" about what it takes to master weapon skills, other than it being hardcore stupid.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 12, 2018, 09:13:14 PM
Quote from: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 08:11:36 PM
Have you branched an advanced weapon skill, roughneck?

Synthesis isn't talking about just seeking out tougher mobs and fighting them in difficult conditions.

He's talking about straight-up, 100% twink-fest tactics. Lying on the ground and fighting rodents, for example, in a handicapped weapon style. The rodent fighting presents zero threat to the health of that warrior, and paradoxically actually has much better returns than riding out in a storm and being willing to faces desert tarantulas, or fighting another seasoned warrior.

Trust me - there's nothing intrinsically "hardcore" about what it takes to master weapon skills, other than it being hardcore stupid.

Yes, I've branched a weapon skill. Warriors haven't really been my thing, partly because I never enjoyed their progression and abilities as much as other classes, and partly because they tended to be less self-sufficient. But, I wanted to do it to see what it was like, so I played one with the intention of getting that sweet weapon-branch.

The cool thing was, that when I got my character there, it actually meant something because not everybody who hung out in a training hall for 20 days had the same thing. My mastery was rare and impressive.

And, I didn't do anything stupid like finding a way to lie down during fights with rodents like what you're describing. Did I take more risks than most characters would? Absolutely. Was it fun? Yes, it was. Ultimately, it took finding the right PC's to train with, and the right battles to test my character's abilities, which is what people who want to master things do. They find the best people to work with and learn from, and the hardest situations to test themselves.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Delirium on August 12, 2018, 09:18:11 PM
I've maxed out weapon skills. The best way to do this is spar intelligently with someone of similar skill level, but that is understandably difficult to find sometimes, so you will either need to train an apprentice or fight critters in the wild.  The 'in a sandstorm, laying down' is hyperbole, but you do have to be patient and willing to take a substantial amount of repeated risk. While I sympathize with the dislike of the grind, I'm not sure that making top tier skills easier to get is the answer. The real problem is that the current setup rewards those who are willing to resort to abusive behavior to speed up the process, and rewards those who are not abusive but are good with the code and patient, while punishing those who are great at role playing but bad at code.

In theory i like the idea of roleplay skillbumps. The problem is, the code is a great arbitrator. If we start giving out top tier skill bumps purely for roleplay without code involved it becomes a minefield where staff has to figure out how to be fair while dealing with accusations from players who disagree with staff decisions on how well they roleplay. So I think any solution to this 'reward the twinks' setup will ultimately have to be codebased as well. It's a conundrum.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: sleepyhead on August 12, 2018, 10:02:30 PM
The solution is that it should be challenging without being unintuitive. If skilling up was reliant on challenging (not just any!) successes rather than failures, then we'd see a lot less silly stuff, not just with combat code, but also with things like crafters not using tools. Of course, this would require an entire reworking of the skill-up code, as well as changes to beginning crafts and such. But I think it's the only way to truly address the problem rather than just slap a bandaid over it.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 12, 2018, 10:20:48 PM
Quote from: Delirium on August 12, 2018, 09:18:11 PM
I've maxed out weapon skills. The best way to do this is spar intelligently with someone of similar skill level, but that is understandably difficult to find sometimes, so you will either need to train an apprentice or fight critters in the wild.  The 'in a sandstorm, laying down' is hyperbole, but you do have to be patient and willing to take a substantial amount of repeated risk. While I sympathize with the dislike of the grind, I'm not sure that making top tier skills easier to get is the answer. The real problem is that the current setup rewards those who are willing to resort to abusive behavior to speed up the process, and rewards those who are not abusive but are good with the code and patient, while punishing those who are great at role playing but bad at code.

In theory i like the idea of roleplay skillbumps. The problem is, the code is a great arbitrator. If we start giving out top tier skill bumps purely for roleplay without code involved it becomes a minefield where staff has to figure out how to be fair while dealing with accusations from players who disagree with staff decisions on how well they roleplay. So I think any solution to this 'reward the twinks' setup will ultimately have to be codebased as well. It's a conundrum.

Every time we have this discussion, you bring up this time that you maxed a weapon skill by sparring...but I've never seen it happen.  Theoretically, I suppose it might be possible in a d-elf clan, or a clan that's 'gicker-friendly, or if you regularly used spice just for sparring, but...those are edge cases that are leaning more toward "contrived," or at least aren't widely applicable.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 10:38:48 PM
Arguments I'm NOT making:
-Increasing weapon skills should be easy.
-Maxing out weapon skills is impossible.
-Combat classes should be able to reach mastery without taking risks.
-You cannot increase weapon skills fighting against other players.
-Increasing weapon skills early on is difficult

The arguments I AM making:
-Achieving fails in weapon skills should be less conditional.
-Achieving mastery in ANY skill should take commitment... but the path forward should be intuitive.

As far as I know, the only ways of increasing your weapon skills as a skilled warrior are:
1) Fight one of a handful of animals capable of eliciting fails (which tends to be independent of their danger level), and:
2) Share regular sparring specifically with a skilled, long-lived ranger, preferably trained in etwo.

Things that (generally) won't help you, if you're past the novice gains:
-fighting any other combat class than experienced rangers.
-fighting any number of large, strong, dangerous mobs.
-training with people less skilled than you.

#1 is obvious and clearly over-cited.
#2 has been a road-in for some people in the past, if they're fortunate. It'll be interesting to see if with the defense changes cited by Brokkr if there will continue to be end-game opportunity to learn from clan-mates, since Rangers with their unique level of defense increase are no longer an option.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 12, 2018, 11:10:04 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on August 12, 2018, 10:02:30 PM
The solution is that it should be challenging without being unintuitive. If skilling up was reliant on challenging (not just any!) successes rather than failures, then we'd see a lot less silly stuff, not just with combat code, but also with things like crafters not using tools. Of course, this would require an entire reworking of the skill-up code, as well as changes to beginning crafts and such. But I think it's the only way to truly address the problem rather than just slap a bandaid over it.

I think the most accessible solution would be to make it so that every single class increased their rate of defense improvement to match that of the now-defunct ranger class.

This would be good on several levels:
-You wouldn't have to change the way weapon skills increase.
-PCs would become the best source of training for each other, long term.
-It would be consistent with the trend toward recognizing a maturing player base with less time.
-It would favor survivability without throwing off class balance.
-Its not class selective (other than some classes starting at lower defense than others, but this would be negligible long term, due to higher RATE of increase).
-Its already been "play-tested" for years.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on August 13, 2018, 12:41:20 AM
If your experience in branching an advanced weapon skill, or getting ranger/assasin weapon skills to master was before Nergals changes, it is likely your experience is out of date.

The skills branch the way they do because we didn't want enforcers to get backstab/sap any more frequently than warriors got advanced weapon skills.  It isn't just a matter of how long.  It is also a matter of overall frequency.

I've had experience getting to that level weapon skills on both warriors and rangers, using different methods, using different NPCs, before and after Nergal's changes.  None of those ways were the small creatures some folks seem to think necessary.  I have a pretty good idea what it takes.  I know that folks can get themselves into IC situations where they never have a chance branch backstab/sap on long lived characters.  That is ok.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 13, 2018, 01:44:28 AM
So, basically...enforcer without a backstab/sap subclass is an Armageddon Challenge Mode.

I hope you guys are collecting data about the new classes (and subclasses) and can track the distribution of player choices to see whether it's working out or not.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Cind on August 13, 2018, 03:39:21 AM
Yes, collect data now, and then a year from now, and then two years. I want to see what people are choosing, what short-lived people are choosing, long-liveds.

Introducing more optional challenge modes is awesome.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: only_plays_tribals on August 13, 2018, 09:19:53 AM
I gotta ask. People keep mentioning Nergal's changes and I cant find any reference to what that means on the boards. Which changes were these?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: mansa on August 13, 2018, 10:32:42 AM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on August 13, 2018, 09:19:53 AM
I gotta ask. People keep mentioning Nergal's changes and I cant find any reference to what that means on the boards. Which changes were these?

Nergal was the public face originally announcing the change is classes.

Part of the changes was that branching skills was also changing.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 13, 2018, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: mansa on August 13, 2018, 10:32:42 AM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on August 13, 2018, 09:19:53 AM
I gotta ask. People keep mentioning Nergal's changes and I cant find any reference to what that means on the boards. Which changes were these?

Nergal was the public face originally announcing the change is classes.

Part of the changes was that branching skills was also changing.

That's not quite what I had been referring to in reference to Nergal's code change.

He made changes to weapon skills code that supposedly made it easier for people confined to combat clans to be able to train weapon skills with each other.

I never noticed any significant difference, to be honest, but other people's experiences seemed more positive.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on August 13, 2018, 10:44:24 AM
No, that isn't a very good summary of the changes.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50628.msg927955.html#msg927955 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50628.msg927955.html#msg927955)

A better summary would be, it is easier to get up to a certain level of weapon skill and offense/defense.  It is harder to get beyond that level.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Sunburned on August 13, 2018, 11:36:03 AM
Quote from: Nergal on February 17, 2016, 09:49:45 AM
Quote from: John on February 17, 2016, 09:38:09 AM
(1) Twinking isn't required or (2) Twinking gets you an unreasonably big advantage.

Both of those used to be true - hopefully this change will close the gap on (2), not so much by nerfing the common twinking methods but by closing the gap between twinks and regular training.

If people can still increase their weapon skills by the "common twinking methods" but ADDITIONALLY they now have a random chance of skill increase against other skilled opponents, it seems that FUNCTIONALLY, circumstances changed around clan sparring and less so for hunters, intending to help to close that gap, yes?

I did leave out offense/defense as part of what was changed, though.

Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 20, 2018, 04:11:41 PM
Give at least some of the city-stealth classes direction sense, so they can maneuver around the city in the dark.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Vex on August 20, 2018, 05:31:08 PM
I think being able to navigate in total darkness, or blinding storms, by instinct, shouldn't be handed out so trivially. It's annoying, really annoying, when you're wanting to go bar to bar without being noticed, but keep bumping into walls like a dunce, but it's already too easy to travel around, without ever needing to hire escorts or bring a friend, or even just break out a light source, like a normal person.

If too many people get it for free, especially city-based people, and it remains a global function, instead of environment based(city/desert varieties), it stops being a marketable skill and makes storms/darkness, as an environmental hazard (stumble in dark > off balcony > RIP > looted by elf), completely non-issues.

If it isn't a class that makes total sense to have it, it should require a subguild to give it to you. I'd give it to stalker, scout and adventurer only. Everyone else, sub for it, make friends, or stay in when it's stormy/dark out, like a sane person.

Not being able to see in the dark, seems like a pretty reasonable problem for most everyone to have...
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 20, 2018, 07:40:18 PM
Splitting direction sense into city/wilderness versions makes sense.

All the middle-column classes get wilderness direction sense.

All the first-column classes get city direction sense.

Outdoorsy subguilds get wilderness.

Sneaky subguilds get city.

Problem solved.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on August 20, 2018, 09:43:11 PM
I like the idea.

Outdoorsy guys are able to navigate in storms.

City guys are able to navigate in darkness.

Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Armaddict on August 20, 2018, 11:43:58 PM
I'm more surprised that Allanak ever reaches pitch blackness to the point that you can't see the walls of buildings that form the streets.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Vex on August 21, 2018, 01:59:54 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 20, 2018, 07:40:18 PM
Problem solved.

Watering a rather class empowering skill down, and making natural hazards a non-issue to even more people, doesn't seem like solving any problems. I'm still failing to see, how giving direction sense to the majority is good for the game, if the idea is to encourage people to work together, or make people more dependent upon interacting with others.

If you give an equal number of city stealth guilds direction sense, or some variation of it, than there will be... what, three or four that aren't essentially immune to the hazard of their environment? Why even have it there at all, if only a class or two, is going to end up dealing with it?

If its so important, sub for it.

Quote from: Synthesis on August 20, 2018, 07:40:18 PM
Problem solved.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 21, 2018, 02:05:08 AM
I'm just sayin'...it doesn't make sense for Batman to be stumbling around in the dark like a fucking idiot just because he didn't earn his Outdoorsman boy scout badge as a youth.

My pilferer shouldn't need a damn scout to lead him back to the 'rinth.

I totally agree with you that storm navigation is a Really Big Deal, which is why I suggested that splitting the skill into city/wilderness versions is the best way to go.  It doesn't make sense for an enforcer/slipknife to be able to storm-nav.  It also doesn't make sense that a scout/jeweler can circumnavigate the entire Labyrinth flawlessly at night with no moons up.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Hauwke on August 21, 2018, 02:44:17 AM
As a culture that is barely aware of the fact the environment can be harmed, I find it hard to believe that there isnt a torch on the walls every couple feet, if not for visibly than for letting people know that: "Hey, the door to my super awesome business is here!"

In my headcannon I view pitch black in a city as being so windy that it might as well be pitchblack.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Vex on August 21, 2018, 04:24:26 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 21, 2018, 02:05:08 AM
I'm just sayin'...it doesn't make sense for Batman to be stumbling around in the dark like a fucking idiot just because he didn't earn his Outdoorsman boy scout badge as a youth.

That doesn't avoid the fact, that it would mean almost everyone in both spheres, would then be circumventing an environmental obstacle, simply because of built-in convenience. There would be little point to having those hazards exist, if so many had been immunized against it by default, and severely devalue the subguilds that provided the option of immunity.

I can't help but feel, as if your argument is centered not on class inadequacies, but on your wanting a certain class+sub combo that has great synergies, but also not wanting to stumble into walls, like a dunce. That choice is the entire point, though, and has only been reinforced with the change to the new classes.

My choice, is not to stumble around in the dark, because...

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/batman/images/c/ce/Batwoman_Earth_11.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120813230640)
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 21, 2018, 04:35:05 AM
I notice you keep assiduously avoiding the parts of my argument that would be detrimental to yours...which I suppose is a good debate tactic, but y'know...I'm not buying it.

You have yet to explain why it makes sense that experience with navigating through storms in the desert ought to translate into navigating the city at night.

I already granted that it's a powerful, useful skill, and as such it should be limited in distribution.  Desert-traveling classes should get it, because that's what they've been doing their whole lives.

However...sneaky bastard classes have been roaming the streets at night their whole lives, and they should be able to do it in the dark.  Without picking a gamey desert-traveling subclass, which works for no justifiable IC reason.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 21, 2018, 05:31:32 AM
I think it makes sense, as long as there's a coded difference between dark streets night and caves. Wilderness direction sense should work in caves.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Cind on August 21, 2018, 05:39:48 AM
Make a distinction between city direction sense and wild?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on August 21, 2018, 06:46:51 AM
Blind fighting should be for navigating in the dark and direction sense should be for storms.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: RogueGunslinger on August 21, 2018, 04:32:06 PM
I hate darkness as a gameplay obstacle. The more ways we are given to deal with how shit and stifiling night time is in this game the better. I cant be the only person to log in with a plan, see it is late afternoon, and just log right back out again.

Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Vex on August 21, 2018, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 21, 2018, 04:35:05 AM
You have yet to explain why it makes sense that experience with navigating through storms in the desert ought to translate into navigating the city at night.

I already granted that it's a powerful, useful skill, and as such it should be limited in distribution.  Desert-traveling classes should get it, because that's what they've been doing their whole lives.

However...sneaky bastard classes have been roaming the streets at night their whole lives, and they should be able to do it in the dark.  Without picking a gamey desert-traveling subclass, which works for no justifiable IC reason.


QuoteI think being able to navigate in total darkness, or blinding storms, by instinct, shouldn't be handed out so trivially.

Storms or darkness, being able to accurately navigate them with a mundane eye is almost a supernatural sense. I don't see it as something you learn by doing, but rather something you're born with and hone over time. An instinct, as I said, that should come with the same kind of suspicion people have, when someone spots an invisible witch with naked eyes.

I think, the better argument would be, to make the city have many less total darkness rooms, than to make every rogue a master of darkness. I would also take direction sense away from two of the classes, whom currently hold it, as well as a couple of subs, if it helps you to understand my position better.

If you want backstab on any desert class, you are required to sub for it. If you want real combat potential on crafter classes, you need to sub for it. If you want survival skills as a city class, you need to sub for it. If you want crafting skills on your warrior class, yes, you must sub for it. This isn't "gamey", as you say, but how the game has been designed... and, as I said, reinforced with how the new classes have been structured.

Direction sense is a powerful skill, and being able to ignore environmental hazards should be as rare, if not more so, than backstab or archery. Just because it can't be used to kill people, doesn't mean it should be treated at trivial.

If you want it as a class who doesn't have it, you should have to sub for it.

I am, firmly, in the sneaky bastard camp. I would immediately and consistently benefit from what you're advocating. However, giving away or watering down a skill, that is rather class defining, for someone else, doesn't seem to benefit the game. It's a self-serving request, plain and simple.

To reiterate: If you want it, you can sub for it. If you want something else, you will have to choose between them.

RGS: Carry a torch, or something. You can get, literal bands, that glow, you can wear on your person, even...
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on August 21, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
Alright, you're consistently missing the point, so I'm just going to quit arguing with you about it.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Vex on August 21, 2018, 06:52:49 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 21, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
Alright, you're consistently missing the point, so I'm just going to quit arguing with you about it.

I'm not missing your point. You're just wrong.

Enjoy the rest of your day.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Dar on August 21, 2018, 07:01:18 PM
Quote from: Vex on August 21, 2018, 06:52:49 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 21, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
Alright, you're consistently missing the point, so I'm just going to quit arguing with you about it.

I'm not missing your point. You're just wrong.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

I'm sorry, Vex. But I'm reading the discussion and I rather agree with Synthesis's line of thinking.

Imagine you're playing a character.

You're an elf. Who does her dirty work only at night, in the cover of shadows and pitch black. During the day, you live in a dunky dark tower, waiting for the sun to set. When you come out into the moonless night to perform your nefarious act, your very first deed is to ... light up a torch. Which invalidates every stealth skill you've got, so you can wonder around like a giant shining beacon for everyone to look at.

Or ...

You can take a wilderness subguild. Granted, your elf never left the city. Is afraid and distrustful of the wild. Thinks whomever leaves the walls are suicidal idiots and thinks Jozhals are mutated rats that forgot themselves and allowed their hides to become too colorful.

But you 'will' take the wilderness subguild, because otherwise ... you're a bumbling fool with a torch.

It is not a huge deal truly. But please dont say that it is fine. It is merely 'tolerable'. Would be nice if it become so the concept of the "Dark Knight" of the city was feasible without gamey solutions, like picking up a set of skills that your character should  never ever EVER know how to do, just to get one singular skill that he should be proficient at. Once again, not the end of the world. But not perfect either.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brytta LĂ©ofa on August 21, 2018, 07:12:06 PM
Quote from: Vex on August 21, 2018, 04:39:45 PM
Storms or darkness, being able to accurately navigate them with a mundane eye is almost a supernatural sense. I don't see it as something you learn by doing, but rather something you're born with and hone over time. ... If you want it as a class who doesn't have it, you should have to sub for it.

Right now wilderness-column classes can use direction sense to navigate in dark city rooms, so you're not arguing against splitting direction sense into "city" and "wilderness" versions. By your logic we should do that, and then give each version to the Wrong Classes (sneakies get wilderness direction sense, survivalists get city direction sense). So that everybody has to sub for it.

(I do value your opinions; I'm just having a sarcastic day.)
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: only_plays_tribals on August 21, 2018, 08:03:40 PM
The sense of direction is a form of spatial cognition that pertains to how well a person is able to recognize where they have moved/are moving in a space, with or without visual cues. It includes the orientation of one's position in cardinal directions, how much distance you have moved, and the ability to keep track of both.

Direction Sense has never once saved any of my characters from a fall room if I didn't know it was there. Hasn't saved me from walking directly into a murderous critter in the dark either.

Because it doesn't have anything to do with how good you are at "sensing what's ahead". It just allows me to MOVE when I cannot SEE because I have a sense of where I am going, how far, and if I have gone off course because I am able to keep track of my relative position.

TLDR; Direction sense works as intended. I don't think it should be split. It's highly accurate in execution. As to /who/ should have that particular amount of spatial cognition, or if the darkness volume in cities needs an examination.. well I don't know. But please don't split the skill because it will make it stop making sense... North is north. Fifty steps is fifty steps.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Vex on August 22, 2018, 02:59:45 AM
Quote from: Dar on August 21, 2018, 07:01:18 PM
I'm sorry, Vex. But I'm reading the discussion and I rather agree with Synthesis's line of thinking.
...
It is not a huge deal truly. But please dont say that it is fine.

It's perfectly fine. I'm saying, it's perfectly fine.

... within the confines of the established system. The staff are, as is plain to see, going to stick with the class/sub system for the enduring future. "This or that", where this and that are subs that provide you with additional skills to round out your character, is core to that system. When you have to decide between two packages that offer skills you want, or are ideal for your pc, that is another part of the system.

I would love for everyone to have up to apprentice skinning. It makes sense, yes, that any idiot with a sharp stone, can cut a hand-sized chunk of meat, from an animal the size of a buffalo. However, skinning is a core aspect of a different style of play than mine, and if everyone could have it by default, it would make the value of being a skilled hunter much less marketable, or valued.

I would love to have direction sense as a skill offered in criminal packages, because it would let me pick a sub with sknning, or other skills that make sense to have. That is a core aspect of a different style of play than mine, and having it as a convenience would diminish the value of the people who used to have it as an bread and butter, marketable skill.

If we want to reach across class limitations, we should have to pay for it. We do that, in our choice of subs. We can't ever have everything we want, and that is obviously intended.

There is nothing gamey about it, at least in the negative connotation. That is the system we have in this game we play, and you are free to make your choices, and live with strengths and weaknesses that come with them. Just like everyone else. The name and blurb for classes and subs, exist as flavor, and to give an idea of how the skills MIGHT be employed, a possible example, when making a character.

You can choose THIEF for peek and slight of hand, and never be a thief, or use the steal skill. You can be a desert-dwelling nomad, choose THIEF, and pick the arrows out of Soh quivers, and never once use your city stealth skills. His argument, and by extension yours, that you're being forced to have a background that is inappropriate, is false, and wrong.

Pick your class/sub based on the skills you want/need, to make your concept work. If you want to be Batman, pick something that will give you the skills you need, to feel like Batman. If that means being infiltrator/outdoorsman, that's fine. You don't have to use your skinning, or your outdoorsy skills. You never have to go into the desert, ever. You can just use archery and direction sense, if those are important enough, that you're subbing for it.

Your background is what you write it to be. Choose your class/sub to best represent that. Even if its a desert dwelling enforcer/outdoorsman, or a born and raised in Allanak fence/nomad. Those are just names, for a skill package. They are totally irrelevant, to who and what your character is. Choosing thief for a skill or two, is not forcing you to rp being a thief, or having the background as a thief, or requiring you to steal from people to justify having it.

The entire premise he presented is wrong. He's wrong, and you're wrong for agreeing with him. The reasons being used to justify it, are wrong.

Use a torch, Batman up, onto a roof, and get where you need to go, or a safe place to wait, until it's light enough to find your way in secret among the crowds. There are piles in-game solutions, to this most petty of problems. If you don't want to make the effort, sub so you don't have to.

I cannot say it more plainly. I feel, it was a total waste of time.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on August 22, 2018, 05:59:40 AM
I mean, I don't think having a city only directions sense that works for night time darkness in the streets/alleys is a is a terrible idea....

But, hide still works in the darkness, and you can always just wait out the night. At -most- you're waiting two IG hours for daylight again.

I have a feeling this has more to do with wanting to sneak around tunnels and underground areas without a torch than it does wanting to sneak around streets at night.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Inky on August 22, 2018, 04:11:37 PM
Or you can turn on a light. The real problem is that you still get sandstorm blindness inside the cities sometimes.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on August 22, 2018, 04:39:20 PM
I think it is fairly obvious that Batman is a drovian.  And that he is always so mad because your crime interrupted his twinking in the dark alley.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on September 15, 2018, 04:01:18 AM
Another minor issue:

There are a few "breaking piles of stuff into individual stuff" crafts that are based on the skinning skill.  Wasn't a huge deal before, because everyone except pickpockets, burgs, and assassins had the skinning skill to a certain degree, and PPs, burgs, and assassins didn't interact with those craft recipes much.

However, there are a bunch of craft-heavy main classes now that don't get skinning.  Which means you have to go around begging your grebber to break piles/heaps/etc. down for you.

Either change those crafting recipes to use the forage skill (since they're so very basic) or add jman skinning to those craft-heavy main classes.  It's not a huge add for them, since they're (presumably) so combat-inept that they won't be out there grebbing their own hides on the regular.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: roughneck on September 15, 2018, 10:18:56 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 15, 2018, 04:01:18 AM
Another minor issue:

There are a few "breaking piles of stuff into individual stuff" crafts that are based on the skinning skill.  Wasn't a huge deal before, because everyone except pickpockets, burgs, and assassins had the skinning skill to a certain degree, and PPs, burgs, and assassins didn't interact with those craft recipes much.

However, there are a bunch of craft-heavy main classes now that don't get skinning.  Which means you have to go around begging your grebber to break piles/heaps/etc. down for you.

Either change those crafting recipes to use the forage skill (since they're so very basic) or add jman skinning to those craft-heavy main classes.  It's not a huge add for them, since they're (presumably) so combat-inept that they won't be out there grebbing their own hides on the regular.

+1

Particularly Laborer, Craftsperson and Artisan.

All these classes have cooking and tanning... yet not skinning. Seems like they'd naturally have at least some idea how to skin. It's a pretty common skill in any low-tech setting.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: mansa on September 15, 2018, 01:41:29 PM
Re: Skinning
In game, anyone with a skinning knife can attempt to skin.   With the right tools, you can be even more successful.


I think I recall Brokkr stating that it was an economic decision to reduce the number of classes with a skinning + crafting combo - to allow players to buy/sell among themselves, rather be mini crafting factories.

Current Classes - Stalker, Adventurer, Dune Trader
Current Subclasses - Hunter, Forrester, Master Chef, and Outdoorsman




I think having a few classes at apprentice might not be a bad idea.  Maybe scout & raider at journeyman?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Delirium on September 15, 2018, 01:46:58 PM
You can attempt to skin an animal without the skill, but you can't attempt a skinning craft without the skill.

I, too, wish that would be changed.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Synthesis on September 15, 2018, 04:45:16 PM
It would be easier if those select few recipes were changed from skinning to forage, rather than giving the heavy-crafting classes the skinning skill.

Working from memory...it'd be stuff like...sorting a pile of bones into separate bones, separating scrab guts, separating generic guts, taking apart a scrab head.  Simple shit that anyone with a basic knowledge of grebbing (which I presume the forage skill reflects accurately enough) should be able to do.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Inky on September 15, 2018, 04:59:53 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 15, 2018, 04:45:16 PM
It would be easier if those select few recipes were changed from skinning to forage, rather than giving the heavy-crafting classes the skinning skill.

This is a good idea.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Heade on September 15, 2018, 07:48:53 PM
I don't know...on the flip side of that, there are classes that aren't great at hunting that have high skinning caps, and those piles are one of the few ways to work on their skinning skill. Like Dune Traders.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Hauwke on September 15, 2018, 08:35:13 PM
This change would make it so that they would not need their high skinning cap, it would be forage based so they would have very little need to raise skinning.

Their is however an arguement to be made for: Why give a class a skill if they have no need of it. But if this change goes in, their skinning skill could be removed entirely, they are traders, not hunters.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Heade on September 15, 2018, 08:45:42 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on September 15, 2018, 08:35:13 PM
This change would make it so that they would not need their high skinning cap, it would be forage based so they would have very little need to raise skinning.

Their is however an arguement to be made for: Why give a class a skill if they have no need of it. But if this change goes in, their skinning skill could be removed entirely, they are traders, not hunters.

Not exactly. They get advanced riding, and jman archery/spear use/shield use, so they can hunt a bit if they grind it up. I wouldn't want to see them lose skinning.

It would just be difficult for them to grind up skinning, which they currently need in order to branch like half their skills, without being a pseudo hunter for a long time if they didn't get skinning through bone piles and such. I like the class. I like that they can be a passable hunter with a lot of work, and I wouldn't want to see that element change. But currently, for anyone choosing that class an NOT being a hunter, those bone piles are pretty crucial to their branching.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on September 17, 2018, 02:38:52 PM
Not going to wholesale change everything to forage.  Forage breaks down stuff that is foraged.  Skinning breaks down stuff that is skinning.  Sort of makes sense.

I can think of one item, a pile of bones, where this is probably an issue.  Is this an issue with other common items?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Delirium on September 17, 2018, 02:41:56 PM
Breaking bone into smaller pieces of bone.

Separating piles of scrab legs & scrab heads.

That sort of stuff could probably be swapped to either forage or cooking.

Salvaging sinews and stuff like that should probably remain under skinning.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on September 17, 2018, 04:16:41 PM
You use the scrab stuff for crafting a lot?  If it is just to sell stuff, disinclined to change it, more interested in where this is impacting crafters.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Heade on September 17, 2018, 04:50:08 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on September 17, 2018, 04:16:41 PM
You use the scrab stuff for crafting a lot?  If it is just to sell stuff, disinclined to change it, more interested in where this is impacting crafters.

Scrab stuff is necessary to make a particularly common item in the south, and is one of the few sources to practice that particular crafting skill.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: solera on September 18, 2018, 01:41:22 AM
Bones to cooking. Yes please! Though I do see newbie skinners wanting to keep it as is.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: MeTekillot on September 18, 2018, 01:46:30 AM
I find your forthright statements of consideration on player recommendations very refreshing, Brokkr.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on September 18, 2018, 01:43:39 PM
Quote from: Heade on September 17, 2018, 04:50:08 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on September 17, 2018, 04:16:41 PM
You use the scrab stuff for crafting a lot?  If it is just to sell stuff, disinclined to change it, more interested in where this is impacting crafters.

Scrab stuff is necessary to make a particularly common item in the south, and is one of the few sources to practice that particular crafting skill.

I took a look and don't see anything that would be needed to practice a particular skill.  The only thing I think it might be has multiple other options.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on September 18, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Crafting types might find they can break down "a pile of bone lengths".  Folks will find they can break down long and short lengths of bone.  These are all sort of ubiquitous in their usefulness.

None of these people will find they can do so as efficiently as someone with knowledge of skinning.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Heade on September 18, 2018, 11:03:54 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on September 18, 2018, 01:46:00 PM
Crafting types might find they can break down "a pile of bone lengths".  Folks will find they can break down long and short lengths of bone.  These are all sort of ubiquitous in their usefulness.

None of these people will find they can do so as efficiently as someone with knowledge of skinning.

I think this is a perfectly acceptable outcome. Thanks Brokkr!
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: crymerci on September 19, 2018, 12:51:28 PM
It doesn't make sense to me that only 2 classes get riposte, and one of them is a light combat class. Can't really see any IC justification. Feels like this was just thrown in to give the city combat classes an additional skill, since their skill list was probably pretty meager without either criminal or wilderness skills. But if you look at Soldier, light combat, they (eventually) get 9! crafting skills, in addition to every single non-thiefy combat skill. As a light combat class.

Soldier is just wonky anyway...Jman subdue but Master slings?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on September 19, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
Riposte was developed specifically to give fighters and soldiers a unique skill that other fighter types didn't get, since all their skills pretty much overlapped in their area of expertise, as was hack.  If it wasn't riposte, it would be a different combat skill, that would still be only available to a fighter or soldier.

We've addressed the subdue thing.  A class that isn't normally playable is the only class with master subdue.  Due to this an a compressed skill value range, the best skill level a playable class gets is advanced and the fall off is quick.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Hauwke on September 19, 2018, 05:47:45 PM
Why cant we have a playable class that has master subdue? There isnt really a reason, so far as I can see, not to simply let soldier have master subdue.
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: mansa on September 19, 2018, 06:48:12 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on September 19, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
Riposte was developed specifically to give fighters and soldiers a unique skill that other fighter types didn't get, since all their skills pretty much overlapped in their area of expertise, as was hack.  If it wasn't riposte, it would be a different combat skill, that would still be only available to a fighter or soldier.

We've addressed the subdue thing.  A class that isn't normally playable is the only class with master subdue.  Due to this an a compressed skill value range, the best skill level a playable class gets is advanced and the fall off is quick.

Quote from: Hauwke on September 19, 2018, 05:47:45 PM
Why cant we have a playable class that has master subdue? There isnt really a reason, so far as I can see, not to simply let soldier have master subdue.


I thought the displayed skill levels (master, journeyman, etc) were in reference to the highest possible cap available to player classes.
Aka - If max subdue was 40, then 40 was master, 30 was advanced, 20 was journeyman, etc.

Brokkr, is there a player class that is taking up the spot for 'master' subdue that isn't available to players anymore?
Title: Re: 1st new class major issue I see.
Post by: Brokkr on September 19, 2018, 07:41:29 PM
Quote from: mansa on September 19, 2018, 06:48:12 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on September 19, 2018, 01:27:34 PM
Riposte was developed specifically to give fighters and soldiers a unique skill that other fighter types didn't get, since all their skills pretty much overlapped in their area of expertise, as was hack.  If it wasn't riposte, it would be a different combat skill, that would still be only available to a fighter or soldier.

We've addressed the subdue thing.  A class that isn't normally playable is the only class with master subdue.  Due to this an a compressed skill value range, the best skill level a playable class gets is advanced and the fall off is quick.

Quote from: Hauwke on September 19, 2018, 05:47:45 PM
Why cant we have a playable class that has master subdue? There isnt really a reason, so far as I can see, not to simply let soldier have master subdue.


I thought the displayed skill levels (master, journeyman, etc) were in reference to the highest possible cap available to player classes.
Aka - If max subdue was 40, then 40 was master, 30 was advanced, 20 was journeyman, etc.

Brokkr, is there a player class that is taking up the spot for 'master' subdue that isn't available to players anymore?

You are correct.  Apparently folks are forgetting that the templar classes are player classes.

The way I would make normally playable classes have master subdue would not be to increase the level that the normal classes get it, it would be to lower the level that the current class that gets it to master level gets it.  So sort of pointless to ask for master subdue, you aren't losing anything (warriors never got subdue to master either), it is really just a perception thing. I'm really sort of uninterested in "fixing" something when the core of the issue is that some people can't exercise some mental flexibility.