I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes. I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass. I am looking for your feedback in this thread. What subclasses are the best? Which are the worst? Why? Are some subclasses missing something? Do some subclasses do too much? Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills? Anything else relevant you can think of.
Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:
- This is for mundane subclasses only. Please no magick talk.
- There will be 0 karma subclasses. There will be karma subclasses. Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
- Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.
Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill. Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill. Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.
Just to clarify, the 0 karma subclasses are the ones like "bard" and "mercenary" correct?
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Do you mean skill level, or like an extended sub that does not offer custom crafting of bows? There are a handful of skills that don't have custom crafting offered through extended "Master" subclasses.
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At least one subclass should offer Master Scan.
1 CGP subclasses that gives Master Listen (Majordomo + Master Trader) (edit)
1 CGP subclass that gives Master Hide (Slipknife)
None that give Master Scan that I've noted unless I missed something.
::EDIT::
I didn't realize it was for karma subclasses as well. I thought it was just for non-karma subclasses
::EDIT::
REFERENCES:
0 Karma: - Subclasses:
Acrobat - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Acrobat- Archer - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Archer
- Armormaker - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Armormaker
- Bard - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bard
- Bounty Hunter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bounty%20Hunter
- Caravan Guide - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Caravan%20Guide
Clayworker - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Clayworker- Con Artist - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Con%20Artist
- Crafter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Crafter
- Forester - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Forester
General Crafter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/General%20Crafter- Gladiator - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Gladiator
- Guard - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Guard
- House Servant - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/House%20Servant
- Hunter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Hunter
- Jeweler - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Jeweler
- Linguist - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Linguist
- Mercenary - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Mercenary
- Nomad - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Nomad
- Outlaw - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Outlaw
- Physician - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Physician
Scavenger - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/ScavengerStonecrafter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/StonecrafterRebel - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Subguild%20Rebel- Tailor - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tailor
- Thief - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Thief
- Thug - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Thug
Tinker - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tinker- Weaponscrafter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Weaponscrafter
1 Karma:- Subclasses:
- Cutpurse - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Cutpurse
- Rogue - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rogue
- Grebber - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Grebber
- Apothecary - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Apothecary
- Majordomo - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Majordomo
- Minstrel - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Minstrel
- Slipknife - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Slipknife
- Master Tailor - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Tailor
- Master Jeweler - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Jeweler
- Master Weaponsmith - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Weaponsmith
- Master Crafter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Crafter
- Master Armorsmith - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Armorsmith
- Master Potter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Potter
- Master Chef - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Chef
- Master Trader - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Trader
2 Karma:- Subclasses:
- Berserker - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Berserker
- Lancer - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Lancer
- Bruiser - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bruiser
- Aggressor - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Aggressor
- Outdoorsman - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Outdoorsman
- Protector - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Protector
Ok, Mansa wants me to get rid of more existing subclasses. Noted!
There are six sneaky subguilds.
Thief
Conartist
Thug (added just for sap)
Slipknife
Cutpurse
Rogue
Only one subclass gives pick. Rogue at journeyman. For that you also get advanced city sneak/hide, watch, scan, climb.
Maybe add another subclass that gives journeyman pick, pickmaking and some crafting skills. Like a pilferer-lite? With no sneak, no climb, no listen etc?
I think a subclass that offers scan would be nice. Especially with a lot more people hiding at lower levels in the new classes, a lowish-level scan sub would be helpful to round out certain concepts.
Just asking out of curiosity: why was scavenger and acrobat removed? (i know it happened a long time ago, probably.)
I think a sub-class that offers the new combat skills might be nice, in the same vein as pilferer-lite, we could go with fighter-lite, so the new skills that had work put into them will see frequent use.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 02:44:10 PM
Ok, Mansa wants me to get rid of more existing subclasses. Noted!
I updated my post. Thanks for the callout.
Outdoorsman is the go-to choice for a city/generic dude who wants to not suck outdoors. What would a 2-karma city/rogueish subguild look like? Should there be an equivalent? (Or is outdoorsman overspendy with the new classes in?)
I made a thing.
https://1drv.ms/x/s!AuelAW2dNA8Cg2i_LessvQbWvxNk
It's the current subclasses and skills, taken from the helpfiles.
I've always had a beef with the fact that no subclass gets clubmaking or axemaking, which would go pretty good together in the same subclass. Bowmaking too, like someone said earlier. Despite the fact that axes and clubs are widely used in both combat and other uses (when people try to kidnap my characters, they usually go for clubs) practically no one is able to make them.
I use master tailor a lot, but am a little confused by the fact that they get tanning, which hints that they are a House-directed subclass/are for people with a crafting background, but they don't get toolmaking. I understand this was probably left out for a reason, but 1. You can fall back on toolmaking with sandstone and basalt if you're really in it deep and in Allanak, and 2. people who start out as a class other than merchant (yes I know, outdated) probably will need tools in order to either tan or sew for a living to begin with. Leveling up a craft skill without the help of a House takes money, but less money if you have an average tool. The old classes did not begin with much money unless they were a merchant, primarily to outfit you with clothes, armor and a weapon or two. Honestly? It was hard for me to have anything in Storm that wasn't a ranger/tailor or master tailor. I have to choose between tools and being able to work most of my cloth. Advanced crafting is fairly unreliable. Doable, but when you're relying on it to survive, it feels a little like you are wasting materials. (Of course, this can be mitigated with an awesome tool or a pair of decent tools, but not everyone knows that, and I often forget it myself. I also didn't know you could hold a tool in each hand and add their abilities together, after about 10 years of playing almost nothing but crafters and witches.)
I want to say I'm real excited about the new changes and do not play long-lived characters so I will probably get to get into the action at some point.
We need a brewer subclass, who begins with the skill and can have it to master. Maybe a cooking boost, maybe a handful of elvish, like to apprentice. Otherwise nothing. Trust me--- the most popular subclass in the world is coming.
Quote from: number13 on July 03, 2018, 06:10:25 PM
Just asking out of curiosity: why was scavenger and acrobat removed? (i know it happened a long time ago, probably.)
Scavenger was changed to the extended subguild grebber, probably because it was the only food-greb subguild at the time and everyone had it. I don't know why acrobat is gone.
When you are choosing a class to look at on the website drop down links, where is Artisan?
Good eye. Soldier is listed twice and no Artisan.
I noticed that there is no longer an Apothecary sub-class
I'm stoked for the new classes.
I think the subclasses are due for renaming, especially given the new class names. I look at "help subclasses" and see we have (or have had) "craftsperson" and "crafter", "hunter" and "adventurer", "pilferer" and "thief", "mercenary" and "soldier", "nomad" and "scout", "raider" and "outlaw"... in several of these cases it feels like the subclasses have the canonical sounding name ("thief", "hunter"), which seems wrong to me. Imagine a new player trying to make intuitive sense of this.
If we had a subclass revamp, I'd love it if they spoke more to the flavor of the role and the background of the character than to raw skills. Nomad is a great example of this - you get access to languages and an accent. Mercenary is kind of like this - you start with alcohol and pain tolerance.
I'd love it if subclasses didn't determine skills so much as other flavor enhancements like languages and accents, unique objects, unique tattoos and scars, additional (secret) biography entries, and other small tokens that fleshed out the lives of people in the game world and the systems in place.
What if the gladiator subclass got access to special scars that no other subclass got access to, and maybe a token that was meant to signify that character had fought in the arena in the past (a trinket that templars may or may not take into account)? (imo, based on title alone, gladiator should be a 1karma subclass because of the knowledge of the gameworld implied)
What if the mercenary subclass automatically started your character off in a "reserve unit of the T'zai Byn?" If you were a member of this clan you could be brought on at an extreme discount, maybe have access to a room with the clan board readable.
What if a forester subclass started with an additional biography entry that detailed a rumor about a unique event that not everyone in the game knows about?
Or if there were a treasure hunter subclass that started with a random biography about a hidden treasure that may actually exist in the game world? Etc.
So less skills, more story. (The new classes have enough skills!)
When I search Custom Craft on the website there is a conflict of information between the first two entries. One says you need to be master the other does not.
Are the new custom crafter sub class limited to 1 entry per month?
Quote from: CodeMaster on July 04, 2018, 11:33:21 AM
I'm stoked for the new classes.
I think the subclasses are due for renaming, especially given the new class names. I look at "help subclasses" and see we have (or have had) "craftsperson" and "crafter", "hunter" and "adventurer", "pilferer" and "thief", "mercenary" and "soldier", "nomad" and "scout", "raider" and "outlaw"... in several of these cases it feels like the subclasses have the canonical sounding name ("thief", "hunter"), which seems wrong to me. Imagine a new player trying to make intuitive sense of this.
If we had a subclass revamp, I'd love it if they spoke more to the flavor of the role and the background of the character than to raw skills. Nomad is a great example of this - you get access to languages and an accent. Mercenary is kind of like this - you start with alcohol and pain tolerance.
I'd love it if subclasses didn't determine skills so much as other flavor enhancements like languages and accents, unique objects, unique tattoos and scars, additional (secret) biography entries, and other small tokens that fleshed out the lives of people in the game world and the systems in place.
What if the gladiator subclass got access to special scars that no other subclass got access to, and maybe a token that was meant to signify that character had fought in the arena in the past (a trinket that templars may or may not take into account)? (imo, based on title alone, gladiator should be a 1karma subclass because of the knowledge of the gameworld implied)
What if the mercenary subclass automatically started your character off in a "reserve unit of the T'zai Byn?" If you were a member of this clan you could be brought on at an extreme discount, maybe have access to a room with the clan board readable.
What if a forester subclass started with an additional biography entry that detailed a rumor about a unique event that not everyone in the game knows about?
Or if there were a treasure hunter subclass that started with a random biography about a hidden treasure that may actually exist in the game world? Etc.
So less skills, more story. (The new classes have enough skills!)
Like this a lot. In my class 'approach' in the other forum, I was talking about how subclasses, as a whole, would need to be toned down. The new classes just have a -lot- of stuff in and of themselves. Extended subs can go the way of the dinosaur. Normal subs can return to prevalence, with less emphasis on new skills, and perhaps more based on bumps or background.
The new guilds, themselves, are pretty good as far as skills go. Yes, I think there are tweaks necessary, but I think ye olde 'modify it with a subclass' is going to be tremendously outdated. What you suggest above is a good way to have them still be enriching and important, but without the pure skill consideration of them from yesterday.
To the contrary, if your play style isn't "kill stuff (city or wilderness)" there is a lot of modify it with a subclass that is going to need to go on.
I don't see the problem with having diverse subclass options. It gives people more versatility to customize to exactly what they want, to fit the character they've imagined. I'm sure I'm not the only person who uses subclasses for RP flavor instead of as a min/max tool.
The only reason I'd bother getting rid of some are if there are subclasses that no one really picks, and whose skills or flavor could be rolled into other subclasses without much effort.
I like having utility or crafting subclasses. They allow you to round out a concept. Especially the ones that offer custom crafting.
So the ones I'd say to keep are Apothecary and all the crafter subclasses.
The combat/stealth ones I'm neutral on, but I still like the idea of being able to blur the lines with unexpected abilities.
More Climb.
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.
I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.
Accidental double post. Sorry.
A human, I think, should be able to know a little bit of elvish, to upper novice or apprentice, without either being a secret breed or also knowing mirrukim. Its not a big deal code-wise, but I always felt this was one of the basics that people should be able to choose, to raise a glass and ask 'Ale?' or to say Hello, Goodbye, Yes or No. Elves aren't so utterly powerless that they can't be useful or necessary to certain humans who would use their services, without including dwarves in their dealings. A Templar should be able to be 'learning' cavilish or elvish, their aides as well, House merchants, sneaky types, but the way the game works right now, branching a language might never happen, even if you spend 10,000 on lessons over several years. Having a few subclasses where the language is poor but already branched has infinite story possibilities.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 12:44:36 AM
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.
I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.
Outdoorsman is advanced archery, not mastery, and less than advanced isn't useful enough to justify CGP spend. By capping the stealth and scan at advanced, and only journeyman hunt, I think it's a reasonable 2-CGP subclass. The only thing worth consideration with this sub is that previously the lack of the ride skill in Outdoorsman was more significant. Now that other skills will be factored into riding ability, it's maybe not a big deal that this sub doesn't have that skill. Advanced direction sense is table steaks for any desert class.
As for Slipknife - master stealth is what justifies the high CGP spend, the other stuff in there isn't worth it, especially with the number of guilds that get poisoning now.
I can only think of one combo that will really piss people off - Enforcer/Slipknife or Enforcer/Outdoorsman. Enforcer/Slipknife gives a PC the combo it seems staff is trying to avoid of master stealth+master backstab, and Enforcer/Outdoorsman (if riding ability has changed sufficiently to allow them to ride effectively) will make this combo more effective in a lot ways than the Raider class.
Slipknife/Outdoorsman paired with any of the other classes isn't a big deal from a PvP standpoint. Miscreant/Outdoorsman is still worse off than a Stalker, and Stalker/Slipknife is still worse off than Miscreant in the city.
We aren't confining ourselves to looking only at PK potential.
I've always been a fan of adding content rather than taking things away. If a subclass or extended subclass seems strong, I say just add something to the others to make them equal. With the diversity offered in the new classes, subclass synergy, imho, will be lessened to some extent for classes with similar skills, and expanded for choosing something vastly different.
Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice. ;D
I'm going through the subclasses to look at how they stack up against each other. I haven't played any non-karma subclass in a long time (except for Physician), but when I did I loved tailor and jeweler. So when assessing the other subclasses these are my gold standard.
Tailor
Skills: advanced in haggle, dyeing and clothworking. They can also learn toolmaking to the level of journeyman.
This is a very self-sufficient subclass. They can not only make clothes (which do require a substantial cost investment to start with) to advanced but they can sell them to advanced. If you want to play a tailor this subclass has everything you need to be completely self-sufficient.
It's also very complimentary to most classes. The only classes that you wouldn't combine this with are Artisan, Dune Trader, Fence, Craftsperson, Pilferer.
Jeweler
Skills: advanced in feather working and jewelry making. They can reach the level of journeyman in value, toolmaking and haggle
This class is less self-sufficient. It doesn't require a substantial coin investment (you can use whatever rocks you find), but it doesn't grant forage either. However unlike skills that tailor is reliant on, everyone except the heavy combat classes get quite high forage. Given the high synergy between jeweler and most subclasses, I also think it's justified in not having haggle to advanced considering most classes will find the raw materials with no difficulty.
Armormaker
Skills: advanced in armor repair, leather working and armor making. They can reach journeyman level in tool making.
This needs a small boost to bring it up to the level of Tailor and Jeweler. Like jeweler there isn't a high coin investment required. Unlike jeweler, armormakers need to risk life and limb much more commonly then jewelers do. I think moving leather working down to journeyman and putting in haggle into advanced would be appropriate. Leatherworking is a side-skill to the concept of armor making so would be more appropriate at a reduced cap.
Weaponcrafter
Skills: advanced in knife making, sword making and spear making. They also can attain the level of journeyman in tool making.
This is the worst of the crafter subclasses. If I play a jeweler, I can make jewelry. Whether it be bone jewelery or gems or feathers. As an armormaker, not only can I make armor, I can repair it and use the off cuts to make leather goods. As a weapon crafter I can make swords, knives and spears. No clubs, no axes. Armormakers aren't restricted to just helmets or hide armor, nor are jewelers or tailors.
To bring weaponcrafter up to the same level of the other crafting subclasses I'd recommend club making, axe making, sword making and spear making. Have haggle go to journeyman. That's 5 skills (same number as jeweler). They're still not self sufficient and are missing knife making and fletchery, but it does let them play the concept of a weapon crafter for the most part. Because at the moment soldiers make better weapon crafters then the crafting subclass.
My revision would make it have good synergy with any of the combat focused classes (except for soldier) just as tailor and armor maker have good synergy. even soldier might still take it for early access to the weapon crafting skills.
----
More thoughts to come later.
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on July 05, 2018, 12:05:28 PM
Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice. ;D
Every PK against me has been via stealth-based characters (assassins) in someway or another. Most of them also possess one of the most powerful PK skills in the game known as blowgun_use. Master stealth/hide is essentially invisibility made invincibility.
With this in mind, they're even better now than they used to be.
Quote from: Strongheart on July 05, 2018, 09:14:38 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on July 05, 2018, 12:05:28 PM
Also, I like the change with regards to stealth and not every person being able to detect a master of stealth. I think roguish types have it hard enough already and it is nice to see that they have something no one else can achieve. In all my years of playing Arm, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stolen from or murdered, and that's just not fair! Maybe I'm being to nice. ;D
Every PK against me has been via stealth-based characters (assassins) in someway or another. Most of them also possess one of the most powerful PK skills in the game known as blowgun_use. Master stealth/hide is essentially invisibility made invincibility.
With this in mind, they're even better now than they used to be.
Only if they succeed right? If they fail, they can have their ass handed to them or be exposed. Which might as well be a death sentence.
Think of it this way. Take away their stealth and ability for assassination, what do they have? And this is coming from a person who has played maybe two assassins out of over a hundred pc's.
If they fail, which is unlikely because most assassins have agility as a priority stat, then sure! But that goes for any and all characters who happen to fail at the worst of times. Characters in the assassination business typically have backup plans, and versus a fighter with zero perception skills, they could get away from their failure somewhat easily.
The worst part about playing stealthy characters that I have found is that people tend to metagame when it convenient such as somehow picking you out in your day clothes despite your face being hidden away in your night clothes. And don't even get me started about how some players describe others by their sdesc such as, "Yeah, I saw a tall male with pale skin run past here." when their sdesc is "the tall, pale-skinned male".
Sure, sneak-based characters can have it rough but so can anyone else, and no one can deny the power of any of these sneaky classes. I am sort of getting off-topic here but the amount of PKs that do happen astound me. As soon as someone starts to play against say a powerful figure IG as an underdog, they are then disposed of almost immediately when they show even just a little confrontation. It makes adversarial roles boring or pointless in my opinion because that character will be grouped up on or in some way taken care of permanently.
Anyway, that's all I really wanted to say on the matter. These new classes are fantastic!
Physician
Skills: Physicians are able to reach the level of advanced in bandage, brew, bandage making, floristry and forage.
So this subclass has everything they need for their core concept, plus floristry. They are missing haggle which has a less reduced If anyone more knowledgable then me knows a good reason to have floristry, I'd recommend removing that and putting in journeyman haggle.
Linguist
Skills: Master sirihish, allundean and mirukkim. Boosted start at learning northern, southern and 'rinthi accents.
This isn't a great subguild. I'd be inclined to put bendune on there and perhaps removing the accent boost and instead give them haggle to journeyman. As it currently stands it's a great subclass for a high mercentile or spy class, but otherwise not very self-reliant compared with tailor or jeweler. Give them haggle and they're still a good choice for high mercentile classes and spying classes, but they then become an alright choice for combat focused classes.
Bard
Skills: advanced in sleight of hand. Listen, haggle, watch and instrument making to journeyman level. Bonus to languages.
This isn't a good subclass. Sleight of hand is only a good skill if you want to poison someone, attack them without them seeing, steal something and then hide it in your belt or cheat at cards. The classes that get poisoning are scout and stalker. Scout doesn't get listen so that's good synergy there, but stalker does. Also are desert-based characters really going to benefit from sleight of hand at a thematic level? Everyone else who has poisoning has sleight of hand.
Listen is good to everyone who doesn't already have it, but sleight of hand isn't because most people who have that will already have listen (only exception being Enforcer).
The only reason to have instrument making on the bard subclass was because of the Tuluki bardic circle requirements. They're no longer playable, so let's give the bard subclass skills that let them pull off the bard role.
A bard should be someone who can communicate with a wide variety of cultures. Get stories from a wide group of people, if you get found by a desert elf who wants to slit your throat, offer to regale them with a tale or a song in return for your life.
As it is anyone can be a bard. There's no actual bard-related skills required to pull off the concept. So I would say make it mirror the linguist subclass but instead of haggle, give them listen. Listen lets them overhear conversations and the language skills let them understand what they hear. This is useful to anyone who doesn't have listen or has listen but doesn't have the language skills at chargen.
Crafter
Skills: advanced in basket weaving, clay working, stone working and foraging.
So crafters only get 4 skills which is on par with tailor in terms of raw skill. But let's not pretend that basket weaving is a real skill. So that's really just 3 advanced skills. I'd give them haggle to journeyman which is a pretty potent combination when combined with advanced crafting and foraging, but it is compensated by the fact they don't have the strongest crafting skills in the game.
Archer Bowyer or Fletcher
Skills: Advanced level in fletchery, feather working and bow making. Journeyman level ability in archery, dyeing and direction sense.
This is more of a crafting subguild then an archer subguild. I would suggest renaming this to Fletcher or Bowyer. Keep all of the current advanced skills. Remove archery, dyeing and direction sense and give them haggle and toolmaking.
Hunter
Skills: advanced in ride. Journeyman in archery, hunt, skinning and direction sense.
So looking at tailor which gives you 1 key skill (clothmaking) to advanced and then supporting skills around the concept, I'd call the 1 key skill in this case Archery and then other skills to support that.
So I'd go something like this: Advanced in archery and hunt. Journeyman in skin, direction sense and ride.
Ride to advanced was powerful before the ride changes. My understanding is that weapon skills can now pick up the slack so journeyman ride is still helpful.
Bounty Hunter
Skills: Advanced in ride and direction sense. They can learn subdue, sap and hunt to the level of journeyman.
In this case I see subdue, sap and hunt as the key skills, so I would actually just reverse these. So change them to: advanced in subdue and sap. Journeyman in ride, hunt and direction sense.
Caravan Guide
Skills: Master in bendune. Advanced in ride and pilot. They can reach the level of journeyman in value and direction sense.
I see direction sense and ride as the key skills here. So I would go: Master in Bendune. Advanced in direction sense and ride. Journeyman in pilot.
Pilot can be good, but as a caravan guide you should be checking for traps and ambushes outside the caravan. Value just comes out of nowhere. Without haggle I don't see why bother.
Outlaw
Skills: Advanced in knife making, spear making, armor repair and direction sense. They can also reach the level of journeyman in sneak and climb.
To me an outlaw's key skills are climbing and not getting lost. Climbing is great for making a get away while direction sense lets you ride into a sandstorm to lose anyone following you. Without hide, sneak isn't particularly potent to avoid being found. The other skills are more support skills.
I'd change it to: Advanced in direction sense and climb. Journeyman in spear making, armor repair and ride.
Mercenary
Skills: Advanced in ride, knife making, armor repair and watch. They can also attain the level of journeyman in direction sense. Mercenaries begin play with an increased capacity to tolerate alcohol.
With the new classes armor repair isn't such a great choice for a mercenary now. It benefits neither fighter nor soldier. Raider, scout, stalker, enforcer, infiltrator and miscreant benefit, but the desert ones don't benefit from direction sense. It makes no sense to have mercenary benefit the criminal classes most.
Instead I would suggest the following skills: advanced in scan, haggle and watch. Journeyman in direction sense and ride. Mercenaries begin play with an increased capacity to tolerate alcohol.
Again enforcer still benefits most from the subclass. But fighter doesn't get scan but does get watch and raider doesn't get watch but does get scan. I can't see a way around that to then give the subclass both. Haggle helps with looting dead corpses and getting good coin for what they have remaining (plus it's thematic to have a mercenary haggle over the price of a contract). The other skills then help support that concept. Knife making and armor repair are handed out via classes now whereas before they weren't. Otherwise other subclasses can grant that if you don't want any other skills.
----
More thoughts coming at a later time.
That's some useful dissection. Thanks for taking the time to do that, John.
Agreed!
Thanks guys. Hopefully staff find it helpful and/or others in putting down their own thoughts on what changes they want to the subclasses.
Here's a review on nomad. This was more difficult because (I did it on my phone on the bus and) the desert themed skills already capture the tribal idea so well (with the exception of not having bendune).
Nomad
Skills: Master in bendune and tribal accent. Advanced in ride, spear making and direction sense. Journeyman in haggle.
This is a flavour subclass that people are going to take if they want to play a tribal. Therefore this class should have good synergy with the desert classes first and foremost. My understanding is that accent is determined by origin city. Therefore having the tribal accent here seems redundant.
Bendune should be kept with allundean added on. Dwarves and city elves get sirihish for free because it's the most common language in their region. Fences get allundean because it is spoken by mean entire region of the Labyrinth. It's one of the most common languages in the desert and yet not a single desert class gets it. So giving it to the nomad subclass is good synergy.
I would keep direction sense at advanced. This is bad synergy, but it lets a nomad choose a city class and still have a key survival ability. To offset this I would also give bandage at advanced for raiders (who already get direction sense) which doesn't benefit the city classes. Finally armor repair at advanced would be a good supplementing skill.
For a small journeyman skill I'd keep haggle. It means all tribal characters are passable at bargaining, but it helps give them a supplemental skill and it makes sense that they'd be good at bartering rather than relying on set prices.
So in summary: Bendune at master. Advanced in allundean, direction sense, bandage and armor repair. Journeyman in haggle.
That might seem like a lot of skills. But anyone who benefits from direction sense will probably already have bandage or haggle as a class skill. So to help offset the fact most classes will overlap with nomad for one or two skills an extra skill or two has been given to them.
Forester
Skills: advanced in woodworking, lumberjacking and axe making. They can reach the level of journeyman in hunt, skinning and direction sense.
I would double down on this being a forester/Hunter type role. However where the hunter relies on archery, I'd keep them with axe wielding.
Advanced in chopping weapons and two-handed. Journeyman in hunt, direction sense and skin.
Con Artist
Skills: advanced in hide, watch and sleight of hand. They can also achieve the level of journeyman in haggle and value.
I don't understand what this subguild is trying to do. It's just bad. Thieves steal. Thugs sap. I'd give con artists pick.
So for advanced I'd give them pick and hide. At journeyman I'd give them listen, scan and haggle.
They're not going to be able to sneak into places with apartments without a class that gives sneak. But if they can convince someone to escort them past (like a con artist would) then they're good to go. Listen means they can double as a spy, but being capped at journeyman means it isn't reliable.
Gladiator
Skills: apprentices at fighting with slashing weapons. They are capable of learning kick, bash and disarm to the level of journeyman. Gladiators begin play with a slightly improved ability to withstand pain.
I think capping slashing at apprentice is a mistake. All of the crafting weapons grant advanced in a single craft, which impinges on the crafts person class. Combat should do the same for fighter.
So advanced in slashing weapons and dual wield. Journeyman in bash and hacking.
Woodworker
Skills: new subguild.
This would take over the woodworking angle from Forester.
Advanced in woodworking and haggle. They can reach the level of journeyman in lumberjacking, toolmaking and axe making.
In this case axe making grants them lumberjack related tools.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 01:44:44 PM
I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes. I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass. I am looking for your feedback in this thread. What subclasses are the best? Which are the worst? Why? Are some subclasses missing something? Do some subclasses do too much? Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills? Anything else relevant you can think of.
Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:
- This is for mundane subclasses only. Please no magick talk.
- There will be 0 karma subclasses. There will be karma subclasses. Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
- Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.
Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill. Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill. Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 12:44:36 AM
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.
I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.
Slipknife is not a mundane subclass
Quote from: frankjacoby on July 06, 2018, 02:04:14 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 12:44:36 AM
Slipknife and Outdoorsman should probably be nerfed. I don't care if you make them cost 3 CGP, giving master stealth + master hide or master archery + master skinning + advanced direction sense on one subclass is too much.
I think nerfing those two will open up some design space and maybe allow you to go back and buff up some of the new main classes that turn out to feel anemic.
Slipknife is not a mundane subclass
No, but it is 1 karma.
Compared to the other 1 karma subclass, it gives master level skills while the other ones only give advanced.
I also think it should be moved to 2 karma... It have master dropped to advanced.
Quote from: frankjacoby on July 06, 2018, 02:04:14 PM
Slipknife is not a mundane subclass
It's...magick? ? ? ?
Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.
Slipknife is a mundane subclass.
Extended subclasses are fine to discuss.
Magick subclasses are not.
Mundane in this context wasn't mean to mean ordinary, it was meant to mean non-magickal.
I think it was just supposed to be a joke about how great and OP slipknife is. It transcends the mundane.
Quote from: sleepyhead on July 06, 2018, 03:14:14 PM
I think it was just supposed to be a joke about how great it OP slipknife is. It transcends the mundane.
That wooshing sound was the joke flying over my head. ;D
Quote from: Delirium on July 06, 2018, 02:57:37 PM
Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.
This made me think about what a Master Florist subclass would look like.
floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on July 06, 2018, 12:53:46 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 01:44:44 PM
I'm going to be looking at the mundane subclasses with an eye to ensuring they are harmonized with the new classes. I am hoping there won't be too many changes necessary, as any change to a subclass will impact current characters with that subclass. I am looking for your feedback in this thread. What subclasses are the best? Which are the worst? Why? Are some subclasses missing something? Do some subclasses do too much? Are there gaps subclasses should fill, and with what skills? Anything else relevant you can think of.
Some sort of ground rules for the discussion:
- This is for mundane subclasses only. Please no magick talk.
- There will be 0 karma subclasses. There will be karma subclasses. Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
- Can discuss if existing extended subclasses are at the right karma levels.
Some things I will be looking at are that the 0 karma subclasses do not have skills that are better at something than any of the new classes that get that skill. Ensuring that extended subclasses are not as good as the class that is best at a skill. Looking for gaps in what is offered via subclasses.
Fair point.
Broker: Have my posts been helpful at all? If the answer is no I'll stop. Otherwise I'm happy to keep going.
Sorry John. I wasn't at all trying to minimize your contribution. To be fair, I like many of your points.
It is good to get someone else's perspective, and I welcome everyone getting their ideas out there. There is always that potential for the "I didn't think of that", even in cases when folks are coming at something with different perspectives.
In general, your suggestions tend to up the power of the 0 karma subclasses, in some cases quite dramatically. The intent of this isn't to increase the relative power level of subclasses. I wouldn't call what you have suggested as tweaking things so much as re-working them. There may be cases where re-working is merited, but I doubt it will be a wholesale reworking of everything.
The only thing that really surprises me is I don't see where folks have amalgamated and processed what I have said over the new classes project and applied it to ideas here. Example: I've talked about what we are calling abilities. I've said abilities can be tied to classes or subclasses. You can see what abilities are tied to guilds currently. No one has suggested a subclass that gives the ability to quit out in the wilderness.
Quote from: flurry on July 06, 2018, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 06, 2018, 02:57:37 PM
Poor Floristry. It either needs to be rolled in with brew, or given out to anyone who gets brew. It's such an underutilized skill otherwise.
This made me think about what a Master Florist subclass would look like.
floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage
I love it.
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on July 06, 2018, 06:24:54 PM
Sorry John. I wasn't at all trying to minimize your contribution. To be fair, I like many of your points.
Not at all. It was a good point to make.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2018, 06:45:09 PMThe intent of this isn't to increase the relative power level of subclasses.
Unfortunately the subclasses aren't all created equal. Tailor and jeweler are my go to 0 karma subclasses. Thief (which I haven't posted up yet) is IMO a complete trap option. The only way to equalise the subclasses would be to nerf tailor and jeweler and pick another subclass as the baseline power level or bring everything up to the tailor and jeweler power level. It's partly why I put in the feedback about tailor and jeweler because it demonstrates why I think those subclasses are as powerful as they are.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2018, 06:45:09 PMI wouldn't call what you have suggested as tweaking things so much as re-working them. There may be cases where re-working is merited, but I doubt it will be a wholesale reworking of everything.
Fair enough. If I do something I don't like doing it in half measures ;)
I'll keep going because I've basically finished the karma 0 classes (got a couple more on my phone that I can't get to right now). My thoughts on the karma subclasses are much less extensive.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2018, 06:45:09 PMThe only thing that really surprises me is I don't see where folks have amalgamated and processed what I have said over the new classes project and applied it to ideas here. Example: I've talked about what we are calling abilities. I've said abilities can be tied to classes or subclasses. You can see what abilities are tied to guilds currently. No one has suggested a subclass that gives the ability to quit out in the wilderness.
I missed the part where giving subclasses abilities was an option. The last subclass that had an ability (scavenger's ability to forage for food) saw that subclass removed from the game. Given how all of the classes had abilities I wasn't sure if giving them to subclasses was something that the staff were interested in given scavenger's fate. I'll be happy to suggest abilities for the subclasses as well. Some of them will pretty obvious (hunter should get hunting specialised for wilderness for example), but I'll go through the exercise nonetheless to see if anything not obvious pops up.
Thief
Skills: Advanced in sleight of hands. Journeyman in sneak, steal, peek and hide.
This is a bad subclass. Anyone who takes it has taken a trap choice. Tailor takes one master skill from artisan/craftsperson and then gives the subclass supplementary skills. So in my opinion all other subclasses should do the same.
In this case for thief the key skill is steal from miscreant. I would have that at advanced and peek and sleight of hand also at advanced to supplement it. I would offer haggle and value at journeyman so they can sell what they steal.
In this revision the thief has lost sneak and hide. These skills aren't good unless they're together and they're terrible at journeyman. Someone who tries to play a thief with the thief subclass is playing at hardcore mode. This could be an artisan or fighter who will rely on being overlooked as the likely thief. They likely won't live long. But such is life with pickpockets. I do think sneak, hide, steal and peek at advanced are just too many skills for one subclass. So I'm sacrificing stealth for doing 1 job and doing it well.
Thug
Skills: Journeyman in kick, subdue, sap, watch and bash.
So not a trap subclass, but still pretty awful. I see this as a subclass that takes from enforcer . The key skill is sap at advanced with hide and bludgeoning also at advanced. I'd give them kick at journeyman.
House Servant
Skills: advanced in pilot, floristry, cooking and hide. They can achieve the level of journeyman in listen.
Floristry is a dead skill on this subclass IMO. Cooking is also pretty bad as everyone except fighters, raiders and enforcers get it to advanced now. I'd give them pilot, listen and hide at advanced and scan at journeyman.
Guard
Skills: advanced in watch. journeyman in rescue, subdue, guarding and shield use.
The classes have changed so much this needs to change significantly. Advanced in guard and rescue is good synergy for raider, stalker, infiltrator and miscreant. Scan at advanced is also a key support skill, but one most of them have scan at advanced already so there's not much harm in including it. Subdue at journeyman can also be good.
Predator
Skills: New subguild.
Where thug gets bludgeoning, gladiator slashing, forester chopping. Predator gets piercing.
Advanced in piercing and two handed. Journeyman in scan, hunt and climb.
I'm trying to bridge the divide between city and desert with this one and not get too much overlap.
-----
Karma 1 subclasses
These are harder to judge. I see these essentially as karma 0 subclass++. That is how I will be reviewing them.
Apothecary, Master Tailor/Jeweller/Armorsmith/Chef/Potter/Weaponsmith
Apothecary Skills: master in bandagemaking and floristry. advanced in bandage, forage and brew.
Master Tailor Skills: mastery in clothworking, advanced level in haggle, tanning, and dyeing.
Master Jeweler Skills: mastery in jewelrymaking, advanced level in haggling, feather working, and stonecrafting. They can achieve a journeyman level in value.
Master Armorsmith Skills: mastery in tanning and armor repair, leather working and armor making. advanced level in haggle.
Master Chef Skills: advanced level in haggle, and master levels in skinning and cooking.
Master Potter Skills: journeyman level in value, an advanced level in haggling, and master levels in dyeing and clayworking
Master Weaponsmith: advanced level in haggling. They can achieve mastery in fletchery, swordmaking, knife making, and spearmaking.
I'll be honest, without mastercrafting none of these subclasses seem worth taking. Is the divide between advanced and master in terms of recipes enough to justify a new subclass? If not, I would just remove them.
If the divide is worth keeping, give them the same skills as their relevant subclass with all crafting at master except for toolmaking which should cap at advanced. Give them advanced haggle as well (or for master tailor bump up haggle to master and move toolmaking to advanced).
For hunt and stealth, all the subclasses have an ability that allows them to function in the environment that makes the most sense already.
I was under the impression that the "Master Xmaker" subs could still CC. For now, anyway. People with those are, afaik, the only people that can CC besides those with the Custom Crafter sub (and legacy merchants, of course)
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting)
Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2018, 07:49:23 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting)
Thanks! The docs are a bit all over the place right now (understandable given the extensive change). So I wasn't sure what was still current. Good to see the confirmation. In that case the master crafting subclasses are at the exact power level I'd expect for them so I'd keep them all as they are.
MajordomoSkills: mastery in listening and piloting, and advanced levels in guarding, cooking, sleight of hand, and watch.
As mentioned cooking at advanced is redundant. I don't think there's enough synergy or value add for watch to also be on a subclass. The only ones that benefit are the heavy mercentile and heavy combat desert classes, fence, enforcer and fighter. The rest all have it. Listen is a great skil to have and definitely worthwhile. Sleight of hand is of minimal value as well.
I'd be inclined to give them mastery in listen and pilot. Advanced in guarding, sneak and hide.
SlipknifeSkills: Master in sneak and hide. Advanced in backstab and poisoning. Journeyman at throw and sap.
Master in sneak and hide is great. Advanced in backstab and poisoning is also great. Journeyman at throw and sap seems very meh. I'd give them journeyman on listen, remove throw and sap and call it a day.
CutpurseSkills: Advanced in peek, steal, scan and sneak. Journeyman in sleight of hand and sap.
Advanced skills are great. Although slipknife gets sneak and hide up to master and advanced in backstab and poisoning. They're at the same karma level so I'd bump up sneak and hide to master, keep steal and peek at advanced, give them advanced sleight of hand and remove scan and sap completely to bring it more in line with Slipknife.
Rogue
Skills: Advanced in watch, sneak, scan, hide and climb. Journeyman in pick.
Again watch is not worth it on this subclass. I'd have sneak, climb, hide and pick at advanced. Give them scan at journeyman. THis makes it on par with Slipknife.
Minstrel
Skills: Master in instrument making. Advanced in listen and sleight of hand. Journeyman in scan, steal, haggle and watch.
Master in instrument making is a "nice something on the side". I don't think it's as important these days, but if you want to keep it on the minstrel go for it. I'd put haggle at advanced and keep scan at journeyman but remove steal and watch. Steal at journeyman is just not worth having. I'm removing watch to compensate bumping up haggle to advanced (also not much value in having watch with the typical classes).
Subclasses that require no changes
Master Trader and Grebber seem fine to me as Karma 1 subclasses.
------
KARMA 2 SUBCLASSES
This is going to be more difficult to judge. Outdoorsman is my benchmark. It has to be my most popular Karma 2 subclass.
Outdoorsman
Skills: Master in skinning. Advanced level in archery, sneak, hide, and direction sense, scan. Journeyman level in hunt.
Put this here just to help me establish the baseline.
Aggressor/Bruiser/Lancer/Beserker
Skills: Advanced level in slashing/bludgeoning/piercing/chopping weapons, subdue, disarm. Journeyman levels in kick, bash and blind fighting.
Outdoorsman has 5 skills at advanced and they're pretty damn good skills. Not so with these subclasses. I'd have Master in subdue. Advanced in weapon skill, (dual wield or two-handed), kick and disarm. Journeyman in armor repair.
Protector
Skills: Master in parry, guarding, and shield use. Advanced in flee. Journeyman in rescue and bandage.
No real changes here. This is a damn good subclass and is definitely on par with Outdoorsman.
And that concludes my analysis of the subclasses. Either tonight or tomorrow I'll have a closer look at the abilities and see what ones might work well with what subclasses.
Quote from: John on July 06, 2018, 08:03:06 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2018, 07:49:23 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Custom%20Crafting)
Slipknife
Skills: Master in sneak and hide. Advanced in backstab and poisoning. Journeyman at throw and sap.
Master in sneak and hide is great. Advanced in backstab and poisoning is also great. Journeyman at throw and sap seems very meh. I'd give them journeyman on listen, remove throw and sap and call it a day.
Seems like you're attempting to unnecessarily nerf slipknife, taking away the throw and sap basically makes it a thief plus, essentially useless, who cares about listen?
Quote from: frankjacoby on July 06, 2018, 09:56:36 PMSeems like you're attempting to unnecessarily nerf slipknife, taking away the throw and sap basically makes it a thief plus, essentially useless, who cares about listen?
Are either throw or sap actually worth having if they cap out at journeyman?
I also think listen has to be one of the more popular non-combat skills in the game. Some people take an entire subclass just to have listen. Listen not only lets you overhear plots (which helps make you more versatile when combined with sneak and hide) but it gives you the ability to detect people sneaking around.
Abilities: I'm assuming anyone who has hunt, listen, sneak and hide will have it specialised for the relevant environment they'd work in if they don't already.
Can forage scraps of food in cities: Currently this is on the criminal classes. Even a fence gets it! So it makes sense to give them to the criminal subclasses. That would be con artist, thief and thug. None of the city classes get any abilities so this can help flesh them out with what would otherwise be pretty threadbare subclasses (especially if staff don't agree with changing what skills these subclasses get).
Of the extended subclasses I'd give it to cutpurse, especially rogue and possibly slipknife (although slipknife does already get some good skills).
Can forage food in the wilderness: I'd give this to archer, forester and hunter. They're all thematically appropriate. For extended subclasses I probably wouldn't give it to any of them except for grebber. I wouldn't give it to outdoorsman because I'm assuming subclasses would only get 1 ability.
May prepare a campsite in the wilderness: Pretty sure this is wilderness quit. So I'd give it to Bounty Hunter, Caravan Guide and Outdoorsman. These are all subclasses that live in the desert. Both forage food and wilderness quit are good abilities. I've given these wilderness quit to give them a differentiator and help make these subclasses excel in what they do. You could argue that Caravan Guide should have forage food.
Good or Fair recovery from exertion: I'd give this to Grebber. It's not a GREAT subguild, but there's still a place for it and I do see value in it (especially for city based high mercantile classes). Giving them Good recovery would just help give it that small push. Alternatively if you think good recover is simply too good, downgrade it to fair.
Can hitch two mounts at once: I think Outlaw could definitely benefit from this ability. It'll help them steal other people's mounts or carry their ill gotten goods.
Tame mount: I believe half-elves have this ability. Giving it to a subclass is removes so much incentive to play a half-elf. The only exception is for nomad. It's a flavour subclass so people would play only typically play it if they want to be a nomad. So I'd give this to nomads if anyone was to get it. Otherwise potentially give nomads 2-mounts instead.
In their current state, some of the subclasses seem rather unbalanced. Maybe that was a result of the karma scale shrinkage. One of the obvious examples is Slipknife. When comparing it to other stealth-based subclasses on the same level, Slipknife is capable of mastering hide and sneak while Rogue and Cutpurse's skills cap out at advanced.
Additionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Make all extended mundane subclasses available at 1 karma.I have a couple reasons for this, besides making mundane subclasses more attainable:
- Locking magickers and half-giants behind a little over two months worth of karma makes sense to me. I just can't see Outdoorsman the same way. I'd like to see a shift towards reserving higher karma for more complex and challenging roles.
- The first point of karma is the easiest to gain and, with the measure of trust granted by staff and a wait time of one month per spend, I think it's a much more reasonable place to set a (more powerful) mundane role at.
2. Rework some of the extended subclasses to balance them out.There are a lot of great suggestions on this thread and I particularly love John's points on abilities and 0-karma subclasses so I won't bother rehashing those. I'll focus on the extended subclasses that I think could use a little more love and why. This is my opinion on how they could be adjusted based on my limited experience:
- Rogue falls behind Slipknife with skills capped at advanced at the highest. I'd give it master climb and advanced pick. Lower watch if not removing it altogether.
- Cutpurse is here for the same reason as Rogue. I'd go for master sneak and peek, if not steal.
- Majordomo seems like it doesn't know what it is. It's a mish-mash of skills that don't have much synergy. If I wanted master listen and pilot, I'd pick Master Trader over it. I'm not sure what makes this subclass worth picking over others.
- Grebber shouldn't have higher hunt than Outdoorsman. Journeyman climb seems like a death trap. I think I'd rather see this subclass with higher climb and the addition of search.
- Apothecary is almost there, but it would make perfect sense for it to have master bandage.
3. Consider skills that aren't offered in any of the current options.I took a look at mansa's spreadsheet and found several skills that aren't currently offered in any of the subclasses, extended or not:
- Master scan (which has been mentioned earlier in the thread)
- Charge
- City hunt
- Search
- Crossbow use
- Sling use
- Blowgun use
- Threaten
- Hack
- Riposte
This is more of an observation than anything I really want to see implemented into subclasses, but it would be nice to see some of the new skills as an option.
Hmm. Now that everyone gets weapon skills, I'm not sure that Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker are going to get picked much anymore. While some people may have taken them in order to use a different kind of weapon than their guild usually gets, I think their main purpose was to provide merchants (and full guild magickers, when they existed) with some nominal fighting skill. Sure, they may have a bit higher of a cap on their weapon skills than heavy mercantile gets, but I think it won't be a popular choice anymore, especially when you have to spend 2 karma on it, and the custom crafter subclass will be an automatic choice for a lot of heavy mercantile players. Kick, bash, disarm, and blind fighting are still cool, but I think the draw of these subs has always been the weapon skills, and I certainly don't think those skills alone plus a potential slight bump to the weapon skills cap that most people won't ever hit anyway is worth 2 karma anymore. Maybe the weapon skill caps could be made higher?
The non-extended subclass Gladiator is in an even worse spot, weapon skill-wise. Their single weapon skill only goes up to apprentice. Again, kick, bash, disarm, and pain tolerance are great, but they might need something to replace the apprentice slashing that I don't think anyone is quite as excited about anymore. I think this subclass should also possibly be renamed since there is actually now a main class for gladiators.
Thoughts?
Quote from: Insigne on July 07, 2018, 07:04:17 AMAdditionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.
It's pretty clear this is exactly how karma is now structured. It use to be a level of "trust" had to be attained to play difficult to play well concepts. The extended subguilds pretty much removed that and we've instead steadily moved towards a "karma = more powerful characters". Brokkr specifically said this isn't the venue to discuss that though so I've deliberately not voiced my opinions on the subject (other than to say I have pretty strong ones which are counter to the current setup but am not looking to explore them in this thread).
All of the subclasses should be junked, (except for Custom Crafter and the elementalists, sorcs, potential psion subguilds).
Just allow players to select three skills to add to their character (or bump skill cap and starting skill level if existing), two with the cap of Advanced, one with the cap of Master.
If you spend a karma point on the character, you get an additional two skills added, one capping at Master, the other capping at Advanced.
Stuff like languages, accents, special equipment count as a pick.
Quote from: sleepyhead on July 07, 2018, 09:30:49 AMThoughts?
Those are good observations. I can get behind Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker getting a slight bump in weapon skills to make up for the changes and make it worth the karma spend. Would raising Gladiator's slashing to journeyman put the subclass on par with the new classes? I don't know. I'd almost rather go for flee.
Edit:Quote from: John on July 07, 2018, 11:03:22 AM
Quote from: Insigne on July 07, 2018, 07:04:17 AMAdditionally, there seems to be a common mindset that power bumps are locked behind a karma wall. Some of the extended subclasses are powerful enough that I don't think they should be completely karma-free, but I'm of the opinion they could be more attainable.
It's pretty clear this is exactly how karma is now structured.
Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. That was inaccurate and a poor choice of wording on my part.
I have a few questions:
Should subclasses have any skills at 'Master' ?
How "powerful" are crafting skills?
* Is there any crafting skills that are more powerful than others?
Is there a skill that is a requirement to your enjoyment of the game?
For what it's worth, unless I'm mistaken, these are the crafts that can only be master custom crafted by the Custom Crafter subclass:
pick making, feather working, instrument making, toolmaking, bandage making, club making, axe making, bow making, tent making, floristry, woodworking
Maybe some of these would be appropriate for new or existing Master ________ subclasses?
Some of these can be fit into existing subguilds:
Some already exist:
Minstrels get custom (master) instrument making
Apothecaries get custom (master) bandage making
Suggestions for fitting in the rest:
Outdoorsman for custom tent making
Forester for custom axe making
Archer for custom bow making
Master Jeweler for custom feather working
Break up Master Weaponsmith into separate custom craft subclasses:
Master Bladecrafter: Swords, knife making, haggle, value, toolmaking
Master Weaponcrafter: Spears, clubs, haggle, value, toolmaking
A new subguild could be created for pick_making: Locksmith. Haggle, value, toolmaking, palm, and peek seem like good accompanying skills.
A new subguild could be created for floristry: Florist (suggested by Flurry earlier in the thread): floristry, dyeing, brew, basket weaving, haggle, forage
Apothecary also seems to get floristry to master.
Has there been any consideration for the search skill on a subclass? One thing I've liked about the new classes is how many classes get it, compared to what I believe used to just be a burglar skill.
Quote from: sleepyhead on July 07, 2018, 09:30:49 AMHmm. Now that everyone gets weapon skills, I'm not sure that Lancer/Bruiser/Aggressor/Berserker are going to get picked much anymore. While some people may have taken them in order to use a different kind of weapon than their guild usually gets, I think their main purpose was to provide merchants (and full guild magickers, when they existed) with some nominal fighting skill. Sure, they may have a bit higher of a cap on their weapon skills than heavy mercantile gets, but I think it won't be a popular choice anymore, especially when you have to spend 2 karma on it, and the custom crafter subclass will be an automatic choice for a lot of heavy mercantile players. Kick, bash, disarm, and blind fighting are still cool, but I think the draw of these subs has always been the weapon skills, and I certainly don't think those skills alone plus a potential slight bump to the weapon skills cap that most people won't ever hit anyway is worth 2 karma anymore. Maybe the weapon skill caps could be made higher?
My understanding is your skill in a weapon skill helps determine your defences against that weapon. The fighting style skill (two-handed and dual wield) impact your ability to use those weapons at all. I think including the weapon style (say dual wield when it's piercing and slashing and two-handed when it's bludgeoning and chopping) included at advanced along with the weapon skill would be enough of a boost to make these subclasses worthwhile (especially when coupled with a different weapon skill then the one your class gives you).
Quote from: mansa on July 07, 2018, 12:39:44 PMShould subclasses have any skills at 'Master' ?
Yes. Without it the extended crafting subclasses just aren't worthwhile.
Skill in a weapon absolutely affects more than just your ability to defend against it.
Quote from: Delirium on July 07, 2018, 07:52:08 PM
Skill in a weapon absolutely affects more than just your ability to defend against it.
Sorry. I meant "in addition to contributing to offense" because that was just obvious to me so I didn't say it even though it would have made what I was saying clearer.
If you think people will still choose those classes, that's fair enough, but I'm not sure they're worth a whole 2 karma anymore now that everyone gets a weapon skill of some kind out of the box.
I'm going to leave this thread open another week (coincidentally, perhaps, a week I am on vacation). Will be closing it when I get back on the 15th or 16th. If you want to present your ideas, that is how long you have to do it.
Having to redo the subclasses is tough.
We have options for:
0 Karma
1 Karma
2 Karma
I think it would help to have a 'game design plan' or 'goal' for 1 Karma classes and 2 Karma classes.
0 Karma - My suggestion is to duplicate the 3 x 5 grid for regular classes, just keep the skills less and cap at advanced?
1 Karma - Various Master Crafting, and maybe 'journeyman' weapon skills? advanced stealth and weapon skills? Deeper crafting tree?
2 Karma - Master weapon skills, master combat and stealth skills?
Under that system people with no karma will be powerless peons no matter how long they have their character.
Quote from: mansa on July 07, 2018, 08:36:18 PM
Having to redo the subclasses is tough.
We have options for:
0 Karma
1 Karma
2 Karma
I think it would help to have a 'game design plan' or 'goal' for 1 Karma classes and 2 Karma classes.
0 Karma - My suggestion is to duplicate the 3 x 5 grid for regular classes, just keep the skills less and cap at advanced?
1 Karma - Various Master Crafting, and maybe 'journeyman' weapon skills? advanced stealth and weapon skills? Deeper crafting tree?
2 Karma - Master weapon skills, master combat and stealth skills?
Rather than power gating karma, I think staff would be far better served by pain-in-the-ass gating. I'd suggest reworking the subguilds from the perspective that higher karma classes are those that require more staff-side support and effort or are more open to abuse, while low karma guilds require little or none, but are otherwise on par in power.
This is much more in line with the original purpose of karma. There's not much reason why a new player to the game can't make a character that is codedly powerful, but there's plenty of reason why they should wait before playing characters that are easily abused or require a lot of staff imput.
Edit: Double posted instead of editing my post like I'd meant to.
Higher karma subguilds, if they exist, should give you more power up front -- more pre-branched skills, higher starting skills -- but cap out at the same place as the lower karma subguilds.
IT would be a very bad game design if higher karma grants higher caps. I wouldn't play the game as a starter, if I knew I'm handicapped from the start.
I agree with the thoughts on weaponcrafter. In the witch class days, I was an unmanifested witch for a month living solely off the fruits of my subclass in Allanak. There was one other person doing this, and it was obvious in the shops, since all either of us could really make and sell was swords. Its really difficult to get ingredients for spears offpeak and many combat role people can make knives. I say its not just a good idea; weaponcrafter needs a revamp.
I think, if anything,higher karma should have lower starting skills - veterans know he to train skills up. Give the newbs a fighting chance! Don't let karma turn into some kind of player caste, the more equal footed we all are the better.
Karma is to restrict rare races and classes to keep the game world rich, because rare things should be rare. It also gives people that stick around a chance to keep the experience fresh with something new.
If it were up to me, I would make all subclasses 0 karma. Leave karma for magic and races.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 01:44:44 PM
- There will be 0 karma subclasses. There will be karma subclasses. Discussion around changing the dynamic not in scope.
Please stay on topic. Subclass karma and how that will work is specifically designated as out of scope.
0 karma sub guild = +2 skills of your choice cap at journeyman
1 karma = +3 skills of your choice cap at advanced
2 karma = +4 skills of your choice cap at master
3 karma = have whatever you want.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/TlK63Er4gKHILXzNeA8/giphy.gif)
Physician (0 karma):
- advanced bandage
- advanced brew
- advanced bandage making
- advanced floristry
- advanced forage
Apothecary (1 karma):
- master bandage making
- master floristry
- advanced bandage
- advanced forage
- (branches to) advanced brewing
I think for the one karma Apothecary should get poisoning to advanced as well. Branch it off brewing.
Quote from: roughneck on July 10, 2018, 07:02:24 AM
Physician (0 karma):
- advanced bandage
- advanced brew
- advanced bandage making
- advanced floristry
- advanced forage
Apothecary (1 karma):
- master bandage making
- master floristry
- advanced bandage
- advanced forage
- (branches to) advanced brewing
I think for the one karma Apothecary should get poisoning to advanced as well. Branch it off brewing.
I know when merchant existed I didn't bother choosing apothecary despite the fact extended subclasses were free because I didn't want to branch brew.
Ever since I joined the game I've wanted to play a Nilazi or Elkrosian, both of which are gone :( Work on bringing them back in the new magick subguild system!
As for Mundane subguilds, why not one centered on the silt sea?
Silt Skimmer
Master pilot, advanced direction sense, Journeyman forage (fishing in the sea? Maybe forage for food outdoors?), Journeyman flee, journeyman climb (man overboard!)
Nomad should give the ability to make wilderness camp (because they live outside in camps)
Grebber shoulder give the ability to forage food both indoors and outdoors (since it's the 'beggar' subclass IMHO)
Caravan Guide should give the ability to hitch more than one mount and tame animals (seems logical, needs to be able to rein animals effectively)
Also as has been mentioned earlier in this thread
Archer seems more like bowyer as it stands, especially since the split of "archery" into subsets of ranged skills
As per current helpfile:
Archers are capable with all forms of missile weapons: bows, slings and crossbows.
I'd propose Archer be split into sub-categories:
Archer - Specifically the effective use of ranged weapons
Advanced Sling
-- Accurate, but cannot poison stones or has some limits on range, unable to obtain "very long range" slings (to my knowledge)
Journeyman Archery + Crossbow
-- Less accurate but able to use effectively
Advanced Fletchery + feather working
-- Still makes sense for crafting ammo.
Ditch Dyeing. Buy fancy feathers from a real crafter
Ditch Bowmaking. That's a really specialized skill and makes more sense for a specialized crafter
Ditch Direction Sense. You can be an archer who is trained indoors. Doesn't mean you can find your way in a storm.
Bowyer - Specifically the effective creation of ranged weapons
Advanced Fletchery + feather working + Bowmaking + Dyeing
-- the core crafting skills of a bowyer/fletcher
Journeyman haggle + value
-- to assist obtaining materials
Slipknife seems kind of overpowered. And at only 1 karma to boot.
Currently the only subclasses I see as go-to (for non-crafting) are slipknife and outdoorsman (2 karma). Now that most classes get weaponskills.
Moreover I don't think slipknife should get master sneak and hide when even infiltrator (the assassin expy) doesn't even get it.
Locking this topic as promised as I've started looking at the subguilds.
I made a thing.
(https://i.imgur.com/aE4jKd6.jpg)
It's Mansa's spreadsheet, updated for subclass revisions.
Skill level descriptions in green had the skill go up, or added. Skill level descriptions in red had the skill go down, or removed. Sometimes you will see a skill that has the same description as before, but it is either red or green. This means the numeric value went up or down, but it is still within the same skill range that goes with that descriptor. In general, the same skill will have the same values across a karma level, with a handful of exceptions. Those exceptions should all have different word descriptions, and thus be obvious.
In general, I split skills up into either combat, survival, or crafting. The following are general rules of thumb I used, may be a few exceptions to this here and there. With the guild structure, every skill has a theoretical level it would be for each class. So while a particular combat skill like slashing weapons may not be on any Heavy Merchantile classes, there is a value it would be at (the same as the weapon skills they do have) if they did have it. That is what the below refers to, when referencing skill levels.
For 0 karma subclasses, combat skills are below what any class would get them at, survival skills are no better than the worst class, and crafting skills are no better than the second worst class.
For 1 karma subclasses, survival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.
For 2 karma subclasses, combat skills are no better than the 3rd best class, suvival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, and crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.
The idea was to tie subclass maximum skill levels back to skill levels of the classes, while recognizing that certain skills are more beneficial and/or allow more impact when used against other PCs than others. Thus the tiering from combat to suvival to crafting.
For 1 karma and 2 karma subclasses, the split was determined by whether the subclass receives any combat skills. If it does not, it is 1 karma. If it does, it is 2 karma.
Thread opened for feedback.
Should aggressor and berserker get ripose and hack?
Disclaimer: I'm editing this as I form more opinions. None of these opinions are an attack on any staff member.
Cavalry is pretty weak for 2 karma. Many subguilds already give adv ride. Heck, for 2 karma I would expect master ride and at least journeyman dsense, alongside everything else already listed.
Likewise, Reaver and Swordsman aren't much to write home about.
And for a one karma, Master Woodworker gets too much. I would say lower club making and axe making to advanced but keep mastercraft capabilities on that?
Slipknife is now underpowered, honestly. The changes are fine for if it stayed one karma. I would keep hide and sneak at master for two karma.
I don't see why Cutpurse was changed.
Recluse is ridiculously underpowered. One whole karma just for the ability to quit wild and forage wild? I'd drop its dsense to journeyman and make it a 0 karma, or add adv forage.
Protector is now a bland sludge of "I'm advanced like the other guys". At least master rescue and guard, if not shield use, would be good.
Master Trader should get master value. No question about that IMHO. I understand no master haggle but MT barely even gives much. Either master value, or bump it up to two karma and give it master value, master haggle, AND mastercrafting flags for all crafts you can currently make. A high price buyin for the new MC changes would balance the board and give a better option than just sludging your subguild slot away for Master Crafter. I still believe Heavy Mercantile should get MCing but that's neither here nor there.
Why mess with Grebbers? Grebbers were fine. Honestly, Grebbers were probably the most fine subguild. It seems like a lot of these changes were based on a fear of allowing a subguild access to 'master' in something, but... Guilds also had the same changes applied to them. A lot of stuff was chipped down to 'high advanced'. Unless there's some secret cult we can get into where once we prove our worth we can apply to be a master in a skill, I don't see the benefit of this in the long run other than making everything one bland soup of averageness.
Likewise, Majormodos were fine, and didn't need to be a part of the Advancement Wave™.
On second look, Reavers and Swordsmen seem to be a subguild for 'check out this fancy new skill' regarding hack and riposte. But they should be one karma. As should Cutpurse and Slipknife. Or they should be buffed - all four of them.
Apothecarians were fine and great. The only change regarding apothecarians I would have suggested was weakening Physicians so choosing Apothecarian actually had some weight.
Why is everything on everything Advanced across the whole board? Where are the standouts? Where are the underdogs? Karma has no weight anymore. Everything is an Advancement Wave ™ sludge.
Pretty much every 0 karma subguild that was changed shouldn't have been changed other than Guard. 0 karmas didn't need a whole bunch of buffs. What's the point of picking 1 or 2 karmas now? Where's Physician's debuffs?
Why does Master Potter have Adv value? Why does Master Jeweller? I mean I understand Journeyman on Jeweller. But Potter shouldn't have it at all. What's the point of Master Trader if I can just go Jeweller for advanced value AND mastercrafting on jewels?
Marksman should have sling and blowgun dropped and moved to 1 karma, or master archery added.
The messing-with of Grebbers and Majordomo is still peeving me. Grebber doesn't need Adv climb. But it does need master forage.
I think that's every thought I have. Again, Big Disclaimer, none of this is an attack or an attempt of diminishing staff work. Just a first glance opinion regarding things.
One last thought: Wait, Grebbers are now forage and hunt CITY? ...But the helpfiles lay claims to Grebbers being able to scrounge for food outdoors, is their focus now being changed? Why? Most grebbing is done outside of the walls. This doesn't make sense.
Alright. I think I'm done NOW.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 03, 2018, 11:33:46 PM
Should aggressor and berserker get ripose and hack?
No, they shouldn't. The get the same combat skills as Bruiser and Lancer. They don't get riposte and hack for the same reason Bruiser and Lancer don't get sap and backstab.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
A lot of stuff.
As I stated, subclass skills will be relative to class skills. No subclass is going to get a skill at the same level as the best class. You are really trying to comment on the dynamic, but commenting on particular skills, which isn't useful as feedback. If you want to comment on the dynamic, comment on the dynamic.
You might also keep in mind that Advanced does not equal Advanced. There is a noticeable difference between the low end and top end of the range.
Alright, as a closing statement regarding the dynamic altogether (although my points on individual skills still stand) :
I think the lukewarming of everything to a muddy moddled state of advanced all across the board with no divots or high points - across guilds too, not just subguilds - is a bit of a... Meh thing. There should be downfalls, there should be high points. Most of the 0 karmas shouldn't have been buffed.
With karma regen in place now, it's important to think if something is /worth/ your investment. And a lot of the 2 karma guilds just are not. Especially Cutpurse, Slipknife, Reaver, Marksman, Protector, and Swordsman.
I believe my flinch reactions to the individual changes are still valid and should be considered, but this is my statement on the proposed change on the whole: Who stands out now? Who is weak and who is exemplary? If a two karma has the same capabilities as a 0 karma, if things no longer do what they say they do but rather sit in the same lukewarm tub, if everything is now varying shades of mauve, where are our eyes drawn but nowhere?
I respect the work of staff and I respect the effort they're putting into renewment and balance, but there's such a thing as overbalancing, and this - combined with the lukewarming of guilds - looks like a seesaw that's designed to never bounce.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 12:27:23 AM
You might also keep in mind that Advanced does not equal Advanced. There is a noticeable difference between the low end and top end of the range.
We're not privvy to the range, though. All we see in the spreadsheet is the descriptor, and it looks like extended subguilds took a massive nerf. Many of them seem like a "why bother" type deal, particularly when you consider that you pay 2 karma for them.
I don't know how much karma the average player has here, but I've been playing on and off since the nineties(on a different name prior to 2000s), and I only have 1 Karma. So I feel like these extended subguilds are a bit meh with the nerfs.
Yes, there were combinations possible previously that were VERY good, like slipknife on enforcer, creating a class that had master sneak, hide, and backstab. But in creating that character, someone had to spend karma on it and hyper-specialize their character into that. Is it powerful? Sure. But I don't think that's a problem. Arm has had powerful, imbalanced stuff for decades.
I think I see what you're doing with stealth skills and scan skills, but it's going to take a long time for existing legacy characters with high scan to cycle out of the game. Before making a change like this, I'd personally suggest giving it a bit more time as-is to see how much of a problem these combinations really are. Kneejerk Player reactions of "OMGERD DAS OP~!!!" without any real testing don't necessarily mean it should be changed.
I'm not saying it should or shouldn't. I just think we need more time to tell, and that with these changes, many of the extended subguilds aren't really attractive for 1 or 2 karma that(at least to me), seems incredibly difficult to accrue.
PS/Derail: Can people still get karma from Imms watching them and such? In 15 years, I've got 1 playing mostly unclanned. We gotta beg? I'm begging. lol :D
Quote from: Heade on August 04, 2018, 12:45:23 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 12:27:23 AM
You might also keep in mind that Advanced does not equal Advanced. There is a noticeable difference between the low end and top end of the range.
We're not privvy to the range, though. All we see in the spreadsheet is the descriptor, and it looks like extended subguilds took a massive nerf. Many of them seem like a "why bother" type deal, particularly when you consider that you pay 2 karma for them.
I don't know how much karma the average player has here, but I've been playing on and off since the nineties(on a different name prior to 2000s), and I only have 1 Karma. So I feel like these extended subguilds are a bit meh with the nerfs.
Yes, there were combinations possible previously that were VERY good, like slipknife on enforcer, creating a class that had master sneak, hide, and backstab. But in creating that character, someone had to spend karma on it and hyper-specialize their character into that. Is it powerful? Sure. But I don't think that's a problem. Arm has had powerful, imbalanced stuff for decades.
I think I see what you're doing with stealth skills and scan skills, but it's going to take a long time for existing legacy characters with high scan to cycle out of the game. Before making a change like this, I'd personally suggest giving it a bit more time as-is to see how much of a problem these combinations really are. Kneejerk Player reactions of "OMGERD DAS OP~!!!" without any real testing don't necessarily mean it should be changed.
I'm not saying it should or shouldn't. I just think we need more time to tell, and that with these changes, many of the extended subguilds aren't really attractive for 1 or 2 karma that(at least to me), seems incredibly difficult to accrue.
PS/Derail: Can people still get karma from Imms watching them and such? In 15 years, I've got 1 playing mostly unclanned. We gotta beg? I'm begging. lol :D
This. The evening-out of everything to a flat surface of seemingly-the-same Advanced just makes it like... "What's the point?". Not even "what's the point in picking 2 karma over 0 karma", I mean, that too, but just "what's the point" in general. It makes everything so bland-looking. So dry. To us, advanced = advanced. And for all intents and purposes, it might as well be, because let's be honest, the range isn't that extreme.
Also, regarding your derail: karma reviews are now open, look it up. :)
Between what I've said in my post, knowing which skills went up (green) and which ones have gone down (red), you have an insane amount of data for anyone halfway decent at analytics.
For example, you know that Slipknife went from Master to Advanced. But you also know that Rogue and Cutpurse went up within the Advanced range. And you can make an educated guess that all three of them have the same level of stealth skills based on what I posted.
I am unsure of where folks are getting the idea that things are leveling out, between 0 and 1/2 karma. 0 karma stealth skills, for example, are clearly worse. Sure, there are some secondary skills or skills with some specific code quirks, like ride, that are the same. But that is the exception, rather than the rule. So I am confused as to what is being looked at when comments are made that they are essentially the same.
Wait, so I'm confused. Do you /want/ us to go into analytics and pick things apart individually, or is that unhelpful? Do you want broader statements or more precise reactions?
I'm not sure I get what you're actually going for in terms of feedback requesting here. We've given both, but precise stuff doesn't address the whole picture, and stuff that addresses the whole picture is imprecise?
I'm not trying to be a crap here. I'm /really/ not. But I don't know what you're /looking/ for, and it seems like anything given doesn't apply to what that is?
I'm withdrawing from this topic because I don't believe I can trust myself to keep in it without making a statement that'd get me banned, but I fully still endorse my prior points, even in the face of these new statements, and I fully encourage other users to post their own opinions too.
I'll just limit comments to the 2-karma extended subguilds.
Berserker, Lancer, Bruiser, and Aggressor are all virtually pointless subguilds now. I guess if you're married to chopping or slashing and the disarm skill, and you really want to play a stalker, this would be useful. Realistically speaking, though, the primary classes that get disarm, kick, and bash are the only ones who should be using them, unless you're talking strictly PvE. Only useful for going around dropping scrub-tier gith and scaring noobs away from you.
Cutpurse could be useful for a few primary classes.
Outdoorsman is solid.
Protector is useful if you want to make your combat shit-tier primary class slightly more survivable (e.g. if you wanted to take your pilferer, adventurer, or craftsperson into the Byn or the AoD). Also gives you bandage, which you can't get anywhere in the city-stealth column...so I could see Pilferer/Protector or Fence/Protector being useful only for adding the parry and bandage skills.
Slipknife is okay.
I don't see the point in Marksman. Who is going to actually use a crossbow, a bow, a blowgun, and a sling contemporaneously? Gives you bowmaking and fletchery, which are pretty good for raking in 'sid, but there are probably better choices. I'd rather take Outdoorsman, because you only need one archery skill, and 90% of the time, you can easily pay your bills with just the skinning skill.
Cavalry could be pretty useful. The ability to tame and hitch two mounts can net you some serious, serious dough with very little risk, especially if you're a top-tier combat primary (and you know what you're doing).
Swordsman is a much better choice for making your Allanak-based shit-tier combat class more survivable. Having an advanced weapon skill and advanced parry, with the location-based slashing weapons bump out of the box sounds pretty useful.
I don't see the point in Reaver, honestly.
In my opinion, imbalance is a part of the game, and the reason you're afraid of witches, among other social and cultural points.
I would kind of like to see staff 'test' and get players to test certain batches of subguilds every once in a while, perhaps full guilds also, since they are pretty new especially. This way, as things change (I'm sure the usefulness of some skill sets will change as player numbers rise and fall, as well as the sort of things they get into) you can fix anything that is really a problem.
I can see why the combat extended subguilds would be considered pointless now, though. Everyone and their mother in Kadius has weapon skills and everyone else is doing better than that. If they had something else going for them though that isn't available now, like a boost to endurance or wisdom or something like that, you know just rename the subguild and make that a thing. Since mercenary subguilds get a boost to endurance, the code for this already exists. From a story standpoint, someone could make a character who is particularly strong and hardy, or who is particularly quick and wise, if they are willing to give up their subguild for it.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
Cavalry is pretty weak for 2 karma. Many subguilds already give adv ride. Heck, for 2 karma I would expect master ride and at least journeyman dsense, alongside everything else already listed.
Disagree. You aren't just getting advanced ride. You're getting two-mount hitching and mount taming. That being said, if you aren't planning on regularly traveling to places where mounts can be tamed, you're probably better off going with the 0-CGP caravan guide if you want advanced ride and two-mount hitching.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
Likewise, Reaver and Swordsman aren't much to write home about.
I agree that Reaver is kinda pointless. Swordsman is great for fourth and fifth-tier classes. It bumps your skill-based combat ability up to third-tier, and you get to keep all the crafting and trading stuff.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
And for a one karma, Master Woodworker gets too much. I would say lower club making and axe making to advanced but keep mastercraft capabilities on that?
Strongly disagree. The last time I checked, axe making and club making had very few craftable items, and they weren't terribly valuable. Also, Master Woodworker doesn't get haggle like the rest of the mastercraft extended subguilds. Once you get your haggle skill up (if you know what you're doing), it's incredibly powerful, so losing that is a massive downside to Master Woodworker. Also, there's no wood supply anywhere near the place where wood is valuable, so you're going to have to give other PCs a cut of your loot, or make really long trips north and back to get the wood yourself. Sounds like a giant pain in the ass to me, unless you're specifically intent on joining House Kadius.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
Slipknife is now underpowered, honestly. The changes are fine for if it stayed one karma. I would keep hide and sneak at master for two karma.
Slipknife previously was so good it was difficult to come up with a reason not to roll every ranger as a subguild slipknife, if you were going mundane. (Pretty much the same with Assassin/Outdoorsman.)
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
I don't see why Cutpurse was changed.
Cutpurse seems fine. Not 100% sold on (advanced) stealth, but the other stuff adds a lot of utility.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
Recluse is ridiculously underpowered. One whole karma just for the ability to quit wild and forage wild? I'd drop its dsense to journeyman and make it a 0 karma, or add adv forage.
Wilderness quit and wilderness food foraging are extremely powerful.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
Protector is now a bland sludge of "I'm advanced like the other guys". At least master rescue and guard, if not shield use, would be good.
Meh. If your primary class doesn't already have rescue and guard, you probably shouldn't be rescuing or guarding anyone. #justsayin. The only reason to pick protector is to get parry and bandage. So it's really only good for Pilferer, Fence, and Dune Trader. My only concern is that parry might not be terribly useful with only jman weapon skills...but hey, it's a whole lot better than nothing, especially if you spend a lot of time in a no-law zone. If I wanted to buff up a fourth or fifth tier class, though, I'd probably go with Swordsman.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 03, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
Master Trader should get master value. No question about that IMHO. I understand no master haggle but MT barely even gives much. Either master value, or bump it up to two karma and give it master value, master haggle, AND mastercrafting flags for all crafts you can currently make. A high price buyin for the new MC changes would balance the board and give a better option than just sludging your subguild slot away for Master Crafter. I still believe Heavy Mercantile should get MCing but that's neither here nor there.
Master Trader is a weird one. It was useful under the old class system for warriors and rangers, but I'm not sure advanced ride and haggle (the two most useful skill additions) are really that great now, because the classes that get skinning already have one or the other. Value is a silly skill. I'm not sure why you're so up in arms about it.
All of that being said...this is virtually all theorycrafting, because I've only played one of the new classes, and it's been like...2 years since I played a mundane subguild. (Holy crap, it really has been 2 years...my last PC was approved August 3, 2016.)
Grebber should get low- or mid-capped skinning to go with hunt and the other wilderness skills it already gets.
Are we going to be retroactively moved to the new skill lists and levels if our subguild is changed? If so, will we have the option to change subguilds?
Yes and no.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lNp8dHpfaJE25O/giphy.gif)
Those who already have capabilities that are limited by these changes (ex: got to master or skill-ceiling in a skill that is now less or much less), are you intending to limit those people or draw back their unlocked capabilities, or cut down their skills? Or only folk who haven't breached the new limits yet?
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 01:13:30 AM
Between what I've said in my post, knowing which skills went up (green) and which ones have gone down (red), you have an insane amount of data for anyone halfway decent at analytics.
For example, you know that Slipknife went from Master to Advanced. But you also know that Rogue and Cutpurse went up within the Advanced range. And you can make an educated guess that all three of them have the same level of stealth skills based on what I posted.
I am unsure of where folks are getting the idea that things are leveling out, between 0 and 1/2 karma. 0 karma stealth skills, for example, are clearly worse. Sure, there are some secondary skills or skills with some specific code quirks, like ride, that are the same. But that is the exception, rather than the rule. So I am confused as to what is being looked at when comments are made that they are essentially the same.
Ok, let me clarify my position: Not everyone who looks over the helpfiles or website outlining what these classes get is going to read this thread. So from the standpoint of someone who has not seen this thread, Advanced = Advanced, and that makes many of those classes not look appealing. And I -still- don't know exactly -where- on the spectrum of advanced many of these classes fall. I can speculate, but since we don't see the numbers, speculation is all it is.
Like I said, from the perspective of a player who hasn't seen this thread, Slipknife seems kind of pointless when looking at what it gives you for 2 karma. I'll go through each of the others individually in a subsequent post.
There is no way codewise currently to do revamps and keep legacy as is other than recreating subclasses for those impacted, which is messy.
Also, keep in mind there are 17 positive changes and 4 negative changes to normal subclasses. There are 16 positive changes, 8 negative changes and one skill removal (to address player feedback that majordomo was a hodgepodge) for 1k subclasses. For 2k classes 14 positive changes, 6 negative changes and one skill removal.
Overpowered subclasses like slipknife and tailor had to be addressed. There was no desire for power inflation to bring other subclasses up to their power level.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 12:01:12 PM
There was no desire for power inflation to bring other subclasses up to their power level.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/976/824/913.gif)
I don't see the problem with a tiny bit of power creep, as there's been a pretty, uh, steep decline in player-accessible power over the years. If people are more powerful out of the box and with the work they do after getting out of the box, aren't they more inclined to do risky shit like get in a knife fight at the Gaj and other fun and exciting things?
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I believe Brokkr said above that skills will be retroactively have their ceilings lowered or raised as appropriate, or removed altogether if that is the case, but if I'm mistaken I apologize.
.
Quote from: Heade on August 04, 2018, 11:36:02 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 01:13:30 AM
Between what I've said in my post, knowing which skills went up (green) and which ones have gone down (red), you have an insane amount of data for anyone halfway decent at analytics.
For example, you know that Slipknife went from Master to Advanced. But you also know that Rogue and Cutpurse went up within the Advanced range. And you can make an educated guess that all three of them have the same level of stealth skills based on what I posted.
I am unsure of where folks are getting the idea that things are leveling out, between 0 and 1/2 karma. 0 karma stealth skills, for example, are clearly worse. Sure, there are some secondary skills or skills with some specific code quirks, like ride, that are the same. But that is the exception, rather than the rule. So I am confused as to what is being looked at when comments are made that they are essentially the same.
Ok, let me clarify my position: Not everyone who looks over the helpfiles or website outlining what these classes get is going to read this thread. So from the standpoint of someone who has not seen this thread, Advanced = Advanced, and that makes many of those classes not look appealing. And I -still- don't know exactly -where- on the spectrum of advanced many of these classes fall. I can speculate, but since we don't see the numbers, speculation is all it is.
Like I said, from the perspective of a player who hasn't seen this thread, Slipknife seems kind of pointless when looking at what it gives you for 2 karma. I'll go through each of the others individually in a subsequent post.
Yeah, my biggest hangup with the whole thing (classes and subclasses) is stealth capping at advanced. I played a city-elf warrior/rogue once (steal, sneak, and hide capped at advanced), and I vaguely remember the skills not being reliable enough to risk using on PCs.
From what I understand, on a scale of 100, advanced ranges from 60-79.
Slipknife seems fine, to me. Advanced backstab is good enough that you'll hit -almost- every time on a normal backstab attempt, and the stealth aspect has been dropped to be on par with other stealth subclasses. But again...it's theorycrafting on my part, because the class matrix is so new.
OK, had some time to mull these over. I do see where your design decision is going with this, Brokkr. I understand that stealth skills currently not particularly valued at "Advanced" right now should theoretically be more valuable in the future under this design because far fewer classes will have master scan. I've taken that into consideration below.
Having thought about it and Arm's history, I guess my biggest issue is that I don't really know why some of these are so heavily Karma-Gated. Throughout Arm's history, Karma was typically used to keep rare things rare (magic, Muls, etc), to prevent rampant griefing by immature players, and to ensure that players entrusted with difficult racial or societal concepts understood the world enough to portray them effectively. The vast majority of these extended subguilds don't fall under any of those potential categories, so I don't know why they cost 2 karma at all. With the recent karma compression, I think we could safely fit all subguilds and extended subguilds into 0-1 karma options. Below is what I'd like to see:
0-Karma
Apothecary - Moved to 0-Karma. No reason to gate this. Very little to abuse, so there is no reason to Karma-Gate it.
Brute - Drop Armor repair to apprentice and raise Chopping Weapons to Journeyman (There are already plenty of subs that get armor repair and this fits more with the idea of a brute)
Nomad - Moved to 1 Karma
Physician - Gone. Replaced by Apothecary.
1-Karma
Cavalry - Lose the ability to tame, raise Ride and Charge to Master. Let Cavalry be the combat-focused riding subclass.
Grebber - Raise forage to master.
Nomad - Add Tame mounts, wilderness quit, and forage wild. Let the nomads be the wilderness-based traders, living off the land. Let Cavalry be the combat-focused riders.
Recluse - Gone. Merged with Nomad.
Reaver - Drop Armor Repair, Add Parry. (As Synthesis pointed out, the primary reason for these combat subs is to add combat utility and surviveability to the lowest tier main classes. Parry makes that something useful. Most of the classes who'd want to take this have armor repair already.)
Lancer & Bruiser - Drop Disarm, Add Parry (As above. They need a defensive boost to be at all useful.)
Berserker - I'd leave this the same, not because I think it's useful, but rather as an option for someone who wanted to play a completely offense-based "Berserker". Maybe add Hack.
Spy - New Extended Subguild that gets Sneak, Hide and Listen at Master, Advanced Scan.
Poisoner - New ESG that has poison and brew at Master. That's it, that's all they get.
All other 2-Karma Options moved to 1-Karma options - With the Karma compression that happened along with the regenerating Karma thing, 2 Karma is a lot for any of these options and doesn't align with Arm's historical reason for having Karma to begin with.
I'd also like to add my voice to those who lament the necessity of a subguild to custom craft items. I'd much rather see it be left as a 0-karma option, but added to be included in the heavy crafting classes automatically.
I'm actually excited about a lot of the changes to Arm, but I think the above changes would be best for the game and allow people the flexibility to flesh out their characters better.
Heade raises some points I had actually planned to make a thread about in the future.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 12:01:12 PM
There is no way codewise currently to do revamps and keep legacy as is other than recreating subclasses for those impacted, which is messy.
Understood. I can live with losing a skill and with having a lower cap on a skill I hadn't used yet. However, it's going to be hard to adjust to a lower cap on something I had already mastered and which, naturally, is my most useful skill at the moment. :-P I'm hoping there may be some wiggle room on cases such as mine for a manual skill bump.
I believe the skill is something I could have branched on my legacy guild but I don't think I would have been there yet and I have no way of knowing what the guild cap on that skill is.
Ah, yeah. Apprentice-capped chopping weapons on brute is totally pointless when even the lowest-tier classes eventually get jman in at least one weapon skill.
Same thing for slashing on gladiator.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 04, 2018, 01:39:58 PM
Ah, yeah. Apprentice-capped chopping weapons on brute is totally pointless when even the lowest-tier classes eventually get jman in at least one weapon skill.
Same thing for slashing on gladiator.
What are your thoughts on the rest of my post? I think those changes would significantly improve the available subguilds and make them all fairly desireable.
Quote from: Heade on August 04, 2018, 01:07:49 PM
Nomad - Add Tame mounts, wilderness quit
As someone who only really plays tribals and outdoorsy characters (yes it's all true)
Giving nomad the quit out skills at least would make a lot of sense for anyone picking a craft guild or a heavy combat that wants to play a tradesman or a guard/escort and also, be tribal. Even if just hanging out in tents a nomad is deffo going to know how to make a camp, that's how they live. I've always though this should be the case.
edit: disagree with gating nomad behind karma though. Nomad is one of those subclasses even newbies can play effectively and have a lot of fun with, exploring the concept of a tribe. It's also a good RP method for a new player to excuse themselves for not knowing things right out the gate (oh I never heard of that way out in the sand etc)
It's how I started out and what got me hooked. If gating rare/difficult to play things behind karma is the historical norm, tribals shouldn't be gated IMHO. I say tribal because the help docs specifically say "If you are playing a character with a nomadic
background, you should pick this subclass."
Also agree with just making one medic subclass and not gating it behind karma.
I'm sorry but making any bandage better than a torn piece of cloth is f'ing hard even at advanced. Even tearing cloth is hard, with tools! You can go through a bag of expensive materials and maybe get a couple successes. It's just not worth it. If someone is hellbent on playing a full blown medic concept to the degree they devote a whole subclass to it, they're going to need master level bandage making or will just look like a jackass half the time.
I was putting nomad behind a gate due to the wilderness quit and tame abilities being very powerful.
Maybe the solution would be to create a "Tribal" 0-cost subguild that is identical to the current nomad, and have an ESG Nomad with tame,wilderness quit, forage wild, and hitch 2 mounts. Not all tribals would necessarily have a nomads skillset. Some tribals would mostly only travel with the rest of their tribe when the tribe uprooted tent city, so this distinction would make sense in Zalanthas, I think.
Pretty sure staff would want wilderness quit gated because the vast majority of the population is supposed to be based in the cities. By making exceptions codedly rare, they sort of force them to be rare in reality as well.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 04, 2018, 12:49:08 PM
Quote from: Heade on August 04, 2018, 11:36:02 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 01:13:30 AM
Between what I've said in my post, knowing which skills went up (green) and which ones have gone down (red), you have an insane amount of data for anyone halfway decent at analytics.
For example, you know that Slipknife went from Master to Advanced. But you also know that Rogue and Cutpurse went up within the Advanced range. And you can make an educated guess that all three of them have the same level of stealth skills based on what I posted.
I am unsure of where folks are getting the idea that things are leveling out, between 0 and 1/2 karma. 0 karma stealth skills, for example, are clearly worse. Sure, there are some secondary skills or skills with some specific code quirks, like ride, that are the same. But that is the exception, rather than the rule. So I am confused as to what is being looked at when comments are made that they are essentially the same.
Ok, let me clarify my position: Not everyone who looks over the helpfiles or website outlining what these classes get is going to read this thread. So from the standpoint of someone who has not seen this thread, Advanced = Advanced, and that makes many of those classes not look appealing. And I -still- don't know exactly -where- on the spectrum of advanced many of these classes fall. I can speculate, but since we don't see the numbers, speculation is all it is.
Like I said, from the perspective of a player who hasn't seen this thread, Slipknife seems kind of pointless when looking at what it gives you for 2 karma. I'll go through each of the others individually in a subsequent post.
Yeah, my biggest hangup with the whole thing (classes and subclasses) is stealth capping at advanced. I played a city-elf warrior/rogue once (steal, sneak, and hide capped at advanced), and I vaguely remember the skills not being reliable enough to risk using on PCs.
From what I understand, on a scale of 100, advanced ranges from 60-79.
Slipknife seems fine, to me. Advanced backstab is good enough that you'll hit -almost- every time on a normal backstab attempt, and the stealth aspect has been dropped to be on par with other stealth subclasses. But again...it's theorycrafting on my part, because the class matrix is so new.
Any concerns around stealth for subclasses would literally just be slipknife. Rogue, cut purse and outdoorsman would all have their stealth skills go up. All of them land at the same point, halfway between rogue and slipknife.
I'd agree with having a split for the subclass nomad with one gated and one not. So long as at least one of them was a 0 karma option.
It does stand to reason some tribal people would have different skill subsets and like it as not, nomad was always a required subclass pick if you wanted to play someone originating from the dunes. So more options for that role, in light of the class changes, would be nice to see.
Edit: Honestly as I think about it just give Recluse Master Bendune + Tribal accent. Bam. Solved.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 02:57:06 PM
Any concerns around stealth for subclasses would literally just be slipknife. Rogue, cut purse and outdoorsman would all have their stealth skills go up. All of them land at the same point, halfway between rogue and slipknife.
Did you happen to read my more recent post? It got caught at the bottom of a page change, but is here:
Quote from: Heade on August 04, 2018, 01:07:49 PM
OK, had some time to mull these over. I do see where your design decision is going with this, Brokkr. I understand that stealth skills currently not particularly valued at "Advanced" right now should theoretically be more valuable in the future under this design because far fewer classes will have master scan. I've taken that into consideration below.
Having thought about it and Arm's history, I guess my biggest issue is that I don't really know why some of these are so heavily Karma-Gated. Throughout Arm's history, Karma was typically used to keep rare things rare (magic, Muls, etc), to prevent rampant griefing by immature players, and to ensure that players entrusted with difficult racial or societal concepts understood the world enough to portray them effectively. The vast majority of these extended subguilds don't fall under any of those potential categories, so I don't know why they cost 2 karma at all. With the recent karma compression, I think we could safely fit all subguilds and extended subguilds into 0-1 karma options. Below is what I'd like to see:
0-Karma
Apothecary - Moved to 0-Karma. No reason to gate this. Very little to abuse, so there is no reason to Karma-Gate it.
Brute - Drop Armor repair to apprentice and raise Chopping Weapons to Journeyman (There are already plenty of subs that get armor repair and this fits more with the idea of a brute)
*Edit:Gladiator - Raise slashing to journeyman. (As per Synthesis' suggestion)
Nomad - Moved to 1 Karma
Physician - Gone. Replaced by Apothecary.
*Edit:Tribal - New 0-Karma Subclass identical to current Nomad. (As per Always_plays_Tribals input)
1-Karma
Cavalry - Lose the ability to tame, raise Ride and Charge to Master. Let Cavalry be the combat-focused riding subclass.
Grebber - Raise forage to master.
Nomad - Add Tame mounts, wilderness quit, hitch 2 mounts, and forage wild. Let the nomads be the wilderness-based traders, living off the land. Let Cavalry be the combat riders.
Recluse - Gone. Merged with Nomad.
Reaver - Drop Armor Repair, Add Parry. (As Synthesis pointed out, the primary reason for these combat subs is to add combat utility and surviveability to the lowest tier main classes. Parry makes that something useful. Most of the classes who'd want to take this have armor repair already.)
Lancer & Bruiser - Drop Disarm, Add Parry (As above. They need a defensive boost to be at all useful.)
Berserker - I'd leave this the same, not because I think it's useful, but rather as an option for someone who wanted to play a completely offense-based "Berserker". Maybe add Hack.
Spy - New Extended Subguild that gets Sneak, Hide and Listen at Master, Advanced Scan.
Poisoner - New ESG that has poison and brew at Master. That's it, that's all they get.
All other 2-Karma Options moved to 1-Karma options - With the Karma compression that happened along with the regenerating Karma thing, 2 Karma is a lot for any of these options and doesn't align with Arm's historical reason for having Karma to begin with.
I'd also like to add my voice to those who lament the necessity of a subguild to custom craft items. I'd much rather see it be left as a 0-karma option, but added to be included in the heavy crafting classes automatically.
I'm actually excited about a lot of the changes to Arm, but I think the above changes would be best for the game and allow people the flexibility to flesh out their characters better.
I'm open to suggestion on changing any of the subclass names, and/or adding a skill if it is reasonable and has some good logic behind it.
It would seem reasonable to perhaps change the Recluse subclass name (suggestions welcomed) and add Bendune, to get to where you are heading.
There should still be tension in terms of trade offs, with the subclasses, rather than giving them everything to fill in all the gaps, so I don't see broadening skill set for a quit capable subclass further than that.
As for why there are 2k subclasses, it is the same reasoning behind hating other powerful options. Combat skills can be combined in ways that can significantly alter the power dynamic of a character. Even something "weak" like aggressor (we certainly saw enough ranger,assassin/aggressor,bruiser,lancer,berserker characters in the past.
Yes but won't have time to reply until later.
Perhaps "Migrant" which is similar. A lot of tribal roles seem to end up in the VNPC or 'dead tribe' category which would make sense for a wandering migrant, with fewer overall "tribal" skills aside from getting around from place to place and sleeping whenever needed.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 03:16:29 PM
I'm open to suggestion on changing any of the subclass names, and/or adding a skill if it is reasonable and has some good logic behind it.
How about renaming recluse into Nomad Trapper and giving them Master Bendune/Tribal Accent, Advanced Hunt, Jman haggle, Jman Forage, Hitch 2 mounts, Tame Mount, and Jman ride? It basically makes them a subclass specifically about finding, taming, and selling mounts. Despite there being several mid-tier skills there, they're all rather specific in application. I wouldn't even care if wilderness quit was taken off of it completely and the rest was left intact.
Wilderness quit, while it would certainly be applicable to such a character archetype, isn't critical to the role. But it's not really critical to most any role. It's just very, very convenient for a lot of roles, and makes sense for many of them from an in-game perspective. It would be nice if it wasn't regarded as if it should be so rare. I'd like to see wilderness_quit added to basically every wilderness-based class or subclass, personally. It represents the ability to know how to set up camp for the night. Why wouldn't a Stalker, Scout, Raider, Nomad, or Dune-Trader equally be able to learn such a thing? It seems intrinsic to their livelihoods to be able to do just that. The fact that there was a subguild specifically introduced that has virtually NOTHING except wilderness quit is absurd. It shouldn't be that rare when entire societies essentially live in the wilderness. Not having wilderness quit on a wilderness character is really more of an OOC penalty/inconvenience than it has to do with promoting realistic play, in my opinion.
But back on the topic of my suggested changes. Basically, I'm looking for a different place to put "Tame Mount" other than cavalry. Cavalry seems like it should be a combat-themed subclass with Master Ride and Master Charge without having Tame Mount. My suggested changes make the Recluse/Trapper more of an economic-focused subguild, and specializes Cavalry as a combat-focused subguild. If anything, this change makes them both more specialized rather than broad.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 04, 2018, 03:16:29 PMAs for why there are 2k subclasses, it is the same reasoning behind hating other powerful options. Combat skills can be combined in ways that can significantly alter the power dynamic of a character. Even something "weak" like aggressor (we certainly saw enough ranger,assassin/aggressor,bruiser,lancer,berserker characters in the past.
Again, the 2K subclasses don't need to be 2K because of the compression of Karma that has occurred, and the fact that people with Karma can no longer spam-create Karma-required characters with the new Karma system. 2 Karma now is roughly the equivalent to 4-5 karma before the compression, right? So does staff think that these subguilds are -really- 4-5 karma subguilds? Of course not. Extended subguilds were free in the beginning with a special app, and as far as I know only ever increased to 1 karma until much more recently.
Insofar as those "weak" classes being used by combat classes like assassin to get kick, disarm, etc...that doesn't really matter any more, does it? We don't have rangers or assassins any more, and the changes I'm suggesting will have absolutely ZERO positive effect on people using the subguilds for those skills, because those people already have some sort of access to decent defensive abilities like parry or shield use. Dropping disarm from those classes and adding parry will actually make the core classes that have disarm more special, make the mixed combat classes like the old assassins who took these subguilds slightly less good, and add FAR more utility for these subguilds to be used by main guilds across the board to add a modicum of combat prowess. It wouldn't make any of the combat guilds OP, and the non-combat guilds still won't be coming out as amazing warriors. It just makes it to where someone could legitimately play a very Zalanthian archetype, like Proximo from Gladiator.
(http://www.wingclips.com/system/movie-clips/gladiator/remembered-as-men/images/gladiator-movie-clip-screenshot-remembered-as-men_large.jpg)
Someone who was able to learn to fight decently, but primarily made their living as a mercantile sort. Because this would be a Karma-Gated subguild, not EVERY merchant would have such a skillset, but it would make such a skillset possible. At the end of the day, even a long-lived merchant-type with such a subclass would still eventually be outclassed by all the Combat or Mixed core classes, but they wouldn't necessarily get completely stomped by a newly rolled fighter if they had lots of playtime practicing combat.
.
For a name for the recluse subclass, might I suggest:
Itinerant
Gypsy
Excursionist
Traveller
Wayfarer
Vagrant
Tramp
Rover
Knacker (Although irl this is derogatory, at least in Ireland where I'm from)
Tinker (See above)
~
Two more suggestions to replace recluse:
Drifter
Wanderer
Ultimately a point-buy system for subclasses is going to be the way to go.
Quit trying to guess what people want or find useful. There's too much complexity to make sure every choice is reasonable/not OP/not useless in a 15x40 class/subclass matrix with 92 possible skills/perks.
Also, quit trying to guess what people are going to pick most often. Implement a choice logger, and weight the cost of the skill/perk based on how often people pick it. Every reboot, have the server run the numbers, and make certain skills cost more or less based on their popularity over time. You've got what...88 skills, and 4 perks. That bumps up to 264 skills and 4 perks for analysis, because skills can cap at jman, advanced, or master. I'm pretty sure one of the mathematically-inclined folks here can figure out a point system for 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 CGP, and come up with a reasonable formula for weighting skill/perk cost by popularity.
If everyone really, really wants master city sneak and hide on their subclass, it's quite possible that eventually the only way you're going to get it is to blow 4 CGP and a special app to get just those 2 skills. Tough shit. If everyone wants it, that means it must be really fucking useful, so you gotta pay up.
I've suggested a point buy system where starting skill levels are more costly than ending skill levels, i.e. You can skip the grind at the cost of having a lower cap.
Honestly, for the amount of time that class and subclass revamp has taken, a point buy system would have been the way to go. I'm still kinda squinting at most of the skill levels trying to figure out exactly what we're going for. It just looks more and more like fable to me, where everyone gets everything but you just kinda don't use certain stuff as much.
Grebber has city-hunt? I think wilderness-hunt makes more sense.
And Cavalry without direction sense seems odd.
Quote from: roughneck on August 04, 2018, 11:51:13 PM
Grebber has city-hunt? I think wilderness-hunt makes more sense.
And Cavalry without direction sense seems odd.
Not even sure why it has hunt at all.
Cavalry not having direction sense is alright; just because you can ride in formation doesn't mean you're a survivorman, it's just a mounted soldier. That being said, this was kinda where I was going with the whole wilderness heavy/light combat serving as the cavalry, with the mixed/light mercantile being far more focused on the archery. The prospect of turning mounted combat training/intuition into a subclass makes for some weird schizophrenia in class design. You say 'freedom in character creation', I say 'why dafuq do we got all these miscreants in the byn doing cavalry formations?'
It's just...weird. With 15 mundane classes, the emphasis on subclasses should be going doooown, not really...up.
This is your chance to provide feedback on the subclasses presented. If there are gaps that could be filled by additional subclasses. The time for providing such feedback is limited.
At this point the direction as already been chosen, by the people that choose the direction for the game. Arm won't be going to a point buy system. Arm will still have karma subclasses.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 05, 2018, 12:57:53 AM
This is your chance to provide feedback on the subclasses presented. If there are gaps that could be filled by additional subclasses. The time for providing such feedback is limited.
At this point the direction as already been chosen, by the people that choose the direction for the game. Arm won't be going to a point buy system. Arm will still have karma subclasses.
Would it be possible to add custom crafting to the 2 heavy crafting guilds for free, perhaps with the caveat that it doesn't kick in until Master level for them? The 0-karma option will still be useful for other classes with crafting abilities, but it wouldn't shoehorn crafters who want to be able to do custom work into essentially playing without a subclass.
Please. I would do anything for the option to CC without choosing that sub.
My three biggest points of feedback as of now:
1) CCing shouldn't be only tied to the CC subguild. At the very least, Master Trader should give the ability to CC (and have master value). At best, all Heavy Mercantiles should either get it innately or at their skills' peak.
2) Grebber shouldn't have city forage or city hunt. Remove hunt (or keep it either wilderness or unset), give wilderness master forage. Or rename the subguild, because the ability to climb and forage for food in the wilderness (Grebber is listed as having wild food forage capabilities in helpfiles, and in my own testing it does have this) does NOT correlate to this weird new direction of city forage with reduced forage, and doesn't suit the name of Grebber. It's more like some sort of weird elven rooftop dweller now. It's lost what made it Grebber. Plus there are so few other ways to get master forage.
3) Physician should either be weakened or removed, and Apothecary needs to keep its prior capabilities (who else even /gets/ master floristry?).
All of my prior points on my bit by bit stance still stand, but these three are - after a while away and a time to calm down - the ones nagging at me the most
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 05, 2018, 01:34:20 AM
My three biggest points of feedback as of now:
1) CCing shouldn't be only tied to the CC subguild. At the very least, Master Trader should give the ability to CC (and have master value). At best, all Heavy Mercantiles should either get it innately or at their skills' peak.
2) Grebber shouldn't have city forage or city hunt. Remove hunt (or keep it either wilderness or unset), give wilderness master forage. Or rename the subguild, because the ability to climb and forage for food in the wilderness (Grebber is listed as having wild food forage capabilities in helpfiles, and in my own testing it does have this) does NOT correlate to this weird new direction of city forage with reduced forage, and doesn't suit the name of Grebber. It's more like some sort of weird elven rooftop dweller now. It's lost what made it Grebber. Plus there are so few other ways to get master forage.
3) Physician should either be weakened or removed, and Apothecary needs to keep its prior capabilities (who else even /gets/ master floristry?).
All of my prior points on my bit by bit stance still stand, but these three are - after a while away and a time to calm down - the ones nagging at me the most
1) Master Traders are traders, not craftsmen. Look at the skills they get. We aren't changing who gets custom crafting at this point. Maybe we will in the future.
2) Grebbers have both, because you can be a grebber in either environment. No subclass is going to give master forage. The 2nd best class gets it at advanced. The change doesn't make a lot of difference anyways.
3) Not moving Apothecary down in karma, so physician needs to be there to fill out the need for 0 karma folks.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 05, 2018, 02:03:39 AM
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 05, 2018, 01:34:20 AM
My three biggest points of feedback as of now:
1) CCing shouldn't be only tied to the CC subguild. At the very least, Master Trader should give the ability to CC (and have master value). At best, all Heavy Mercantiles should either get it innately or at their skills' peak.
2) Grebber shouldn't have city forage or city hunt. Remove hunt (or keep it either wilderness or unset), give wilderness master forage. Or rename the subguild, because the ability to climb and forage for food in the wilderness (Grebber is listed as having wild food forage capabilities in helpfiles, and in my own testing it does have this) does NOT correlate to this weird new direction of city forage with reduced forage, and doesn't suit the name of Grebber. It's more like some sort of weird elven rooftop dweller now. It's lost what made it Grebber. Plus there are so few other ways to get master forage.
3) Physician should either be weakened or removed, and Apothecary needs to keep its prior capabilities (who else even /gets/ master floristry?).
All of my prior points on my bit by bit stance still stand, but these three are - after a while away and a time to calm down - the ones nagging at me the most
1) Master Traders are traders, not craftsmen. Look at the skills they get. We aren't changing who gets custom crafting at this point. Maybe we will in the future.
2) Grebbers have both, because you can be a grebber in either environment. No subclass is going to give master forage. The 2nd best class gets it at advanced. The change doesn't make a lot of difference anyways.
3) Not moving Apothecary down in karma, so physician needs to be there to fill out the need for 0 karma folks.
Grebbers get both? That wasn't on the sheet. That changes things, though... Thank you for that clarification.
Physician is still quite strong for a 0 karma - the upgrade from Physician to Apothecary is minimal at best. I understand Physician still being there, but it shouldn't have as high craftskills.
Grebbers do not, currently. The change, as per the words in green down at the bottom (yes, if the words down at the bottom for an ability are a green, then it is an add), would be to make it so they can.
My main concerns are that I don't understand the point of the Minstrel subguild being so high karma without the ability to custom craft instruments, nor do I understand why there is no subguild for custom crafting floristry. Obviously, I mostly play crafters. (I also hate the 0 karma custom craft class, but if you're dead set on having this, there should be at least one extended subguilds that allow you to custom craft anything custom craftable.)
In general I like the new subguilds array.
The only 'gap' I see is while there are a few options to add City traits, I don't see as many (any?) options to add Wild stealth/perception. I don't quite understand how that works, but I remember reading that you could get a base class with City skills/traits and then the trait from a sub to apply them to the existing skill, or vice versa. I would like to see those options balanced.
I personally hope there will be something in the helpfiles to clarify relative value within a tier. If I am choosing a sub specifically for one or two skills, I would be trying to get [high] advanced over [low] advanced, for example.
I'd still like to see the Spy ESG added with master stealth skills and all ESGs compressed to 1 Karma options.
I asked this already, but previously someone having 2 karma now was about 4 karma pre-compression, right? Does staff really think all these ESGs are 4 Karma selections? ESGs used to be free with a spec app, then went on to cost 1 karma pre-compression. Raising them to 2 post-compression makes them the equivalent of a 4 karma option pre-compression. Even more rare than that, considering that such a selection now eats up karma, stopping people from choosing an ESG again if they get backstabbed by some rando on their first day of play. That happens more often than I like, and at 2 Karma it seems like it's very harsh for things that shouldn't be that rare.
If these are kept at 2 karma, I'd expect to see staff get more complaints through the request tool when things like this happen. Having to wait 75 days to play your concept because someone murdered your brand new character on day 1 having never interacted with your character before seems brutally harsh OOCly, and doesn't seem like it will be a good thing for the population level on arm. I can certainly see such a thing breeding rampant frustration among the playerbase, leading to "breaks" that last until karma regenerates, or even longer. Compressing these all back to 1-Karma options will minimize that while still controlling the number of people playing them at any given moment.
I have a request for data.
For 2017, what was the breakdown of the characters created with class and subclass?
Why no cc floristry or cc brew (not liquids, for the latter, but things like soap, candles, incense, etc)?
Why not just let apothecary keep master floristry, it's such an underutilized skill in the first place.
Quote from: Delirium on August 05, 2018, 02:51:30 PM
Why no cc floristry or cc brew (not liquids, for the latter, but things like soap, candles, incense, etc)?
Why not just let apothecary keep master floristry, it's such an underutilized skill in the first place.
I was confused by this too. Everything being shifted to varying shades of advanced across the board is a separate matter of a design choice. But it's one that's taking away master floristry, and let's be honest, nobody has broken the game using floristry comparative to other skills :x
Quote from: Delirium on August 05, 2018, 02:51:30 PM
Why no cc floristry or cc brew (not liquids, for the latter, but things like soap, candles, incense, etc)?
Why not just let apothecary keep master floristry, it's such an underutilized skill in the first place.
Apothecary still has Master floristry, according to the spreadsheet, so not sure where you are getting this from? Now, the helpfile for Apothecary is still rooted in the pre-new class system, which was borked for floristry. Merchant got it to a level lower than House Servant/physcian which was lower than Apothecary. Now Heavy Merchantile get it to a higher level than Apothecary, but Apothecary still gets it to Master. I am not aware of anything not rooted in the previous weird max skill levels that should prevent mastercrafting floristry as an Apothecary.
Brew is slightly different. I messed up and it should be Master for Apothecary.
I also didn't see apothecary as a custom crafting guild with ability to custom craft floristry, but I was having a hard time tracking some things across the sheet.
In that case, the only one I'm concerned about is the lack of karma subguilds that can custom craft instruments.
The decrease to shield use for Guard (http://armageddon.org/help/view/guard) doesn't seem to be a decrease. Judging by the helpfile, it actually went from journeyman to advanced. Is that just a misplaced tag?
Moving on, I'm a bit disappointed with the decision to reduce master-able skills across the board (with the exception of language and craft skills). With the new classes, there seems to be a fixation on mixing and matching skills based on which ones you're willing to sacrifice mastery of, whether or not there's synergy between the two or more. You can master either sneak/hide
or backstab/blowgun use, ride
or charge, archery
or bowmaking/fletchery - but not both. I thought the subclasses could have remedied that.
But, despite the mismatched synergy of some skill combinations, I think I could get used to the subclass changes. I do have a few other concerns, as well as suggestions, that I'll detail out below:
- Lower Cutpurse to the same karma level as Rogue. I like that the 'criminal' subclasses have been ironed out to roughly the same skill level. While I can see why Slipknife remains a 2-karma subclass despite having reduced stealth, I'm less sure about Cutpurse. What is the reasoning behind Cutpurse being higher than Rogue in the karma scale?
- Shift Recluse from crafting to wilderness utility. I'm a little uncertain about the similarities in crafting skills between Recluse and Master Woodworker. Maybe Recluse could be the wilderness solution for scan and listen, where there are two city-based subclasses that have both skills?
- Give other wilderness subclasses the ability to quit outdoors. There's a wealth of other outdoor-based subclasses: Nomad, Outlaw, Grebber and Outdoorsman. Is the ability exclusive to Recluse?
Quote from: Insigne on August 05, 2018, 04:50:49 PM
The decrease to shield use for Guard (http://armageddon.org/help/view/guard) doesn't seem to be a decrease. Judging by the helpfile, it actually went from journeyman to advanced. Is that just a misplaced tag?
Because the current helpfile is wrong, in terms of which skill level the subclass guard can get you to.
Quote from: Insigne on August 05, 2018, 04:50:49 PM
Moving on, I'm a bit disappointed with the decision to reduce master-able skills across the board (with the exception of language and craft skills). With the new classes, there seems to be a fixation on mixing and matching skills based on which ones you're willing to sacrifice mastery of, whether or not there's synergy between the two or more. You can master either sneak/hide or backstab/blowgun use, ride or charge, archery or bowmaking/fletchery - but not both. I thought the subclasses could have remedied that.
But, despite the mismatched synergy of some skill combinations, I think I could get used to the subclass changes. I do have a few other concerns, as well as suggestions, that I'll detail out below:
- Lower Cutpurse to the same karma level as Rogue. I like that the 'criminal' subclasses have been ironed out to roughly the same skill level. While I can see why Slipknife remains a 2-karma subclass despite having reduced stealth, I'm less sure about Cutpurse. What is the reasoning behind Cutpurse being higher than Rogue in the karma scale?
Because Cutpurse has sap, a combat skill.[/quote]
Quote from: Insigne on August 05, 2018, 04:50:49 PM
- Shift Recluse from crafting to wilderness utility. I'm a little uncertain about the similarities in crafting skills between Recluse and Master Woodworker. Maybe Recluse could be the wilderness solution for scan and listen, where there are two city-based subclasses that have both skills?
Sorry, what? Recluse has no crafting skills. Just Direction Sense and the ability to quit in wilderness rooms.
Quote from: Insigne on August 05, 2018, 04:50:49 PM
- Give other wilderness subclasses the ability to quit outdoors. There's a wealth of other outdoor-based subclasses: Nomad, Outlaw, Grebber and Outdoorsman. Is the ability exclusive to Recluse?
Those subclasses aren't getting wilderness quit. It was touch and go whether any would get it. One intent of the revamp to both classes and subclass was to introduce trade offs. You need to prioritize, make a choice, and there could likely be some things you would like to see in combination with one another at certain levels that you can't get.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 05, 2018, 05:05:22 PMBecause the current helpfile is wrong, in terms of which skill level the subclass guard can get you to.
Oh, I see. I don't have any experience with that subclass so I wasn't sure. Thank you for the clarification!
QuoteSorry, what? Recluse has no crafting skills. Just Direction Sense and the ability to quit in wilderness rooms.
Oops. In that case, consider that a mistake on my part. It looks like the fields with 'mastercraft' extended to Recluse's row. I assumed that meant both Master Woodworker and Recluse shared the same skills.
QuoteThose subclasses aren't getting wilderness quit. It was touch and go whether any would get it.
That's fair. I wasn't sure which skills Recluse got at first, but it makes more sense now.
QuoteOne intent of the revamp to both classes and subclass was to introduce trade offs. You need to prioritize, make a choice, and there could likely be some things you would like to see in combination with one another at certain levels that you can't get.
That brings me to my earlier issue with the changes. On paper, trade-offs, prioritizing and making choices might work well, but the execution seems flawed. There's a heavy fixation on the three categories (Combat, Utility, Crafting) and it's very limiting for concepts that might mix-and-match skills from multiple categories. It's not just a matter of how I would like to see some skills in combination with one another. It's the way skills work codedly: some of them rely on one another to work.
There isn't even an option to sacrifice a skill or two so that a skill from category X can be on par with another skill from category Y. So, all things taken into consideration, that intent seems to fall short realistically and with the way skills work off each other.
The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.
I think the problem isn't so much that master stealth + backstab/sap is inherently broken. It's that stealth itself is broken and needs a revamp.
If the stealth system were better and less gamey, it wouldn't be the case that you're either an undetectable ghost or you're just standing there like an idiot because you didn't know you failed your sneak check 5 rooms ago and thus are not even attempting to hide anymore. Stealth shouldn't be as unbeatable and risk-free as it is at max sneak/hide, but it also shouldn't be so clumsy as it is at advanced. It's too binary.
This isn't really within the scope of these changes. But I would hope that staff might look into getting to the root of these problems rather than just trading one problem (completely invisible OHK/OHKO-ers) with another (assassins who don't even know how to tell they forgot to hide again). I have a lot of ideas about how to make sneak/hide more interesting and realistic, and both more fun to play with and play against, if you guys are interested in hearing them in the future.
Quote from: sleepyhead on August 06, 2018, 12:16:03 PM
I think the problem isn't so much that master stealth + backstab/sap is inherently broken. It's that stealth itself is broken and needs a revamp.
If the stealth system were better and less gamey, it wouldn't be the case that you're either an undetectable ghost or you're just standing there like an idiot because you didn't know you failed your sneak check 5 rooms ago and thus are not even attempting to hide anymore. Stealth shouldn't be as unbeatable and risk-free as it is at max sneak/hide, but it also shouldn't be so clumsy as it is at advanced. It's too binary.
This isn't really within the scope of these changes. But I would hope that staff might look into getting to the root of these problems rather than just trading one problem (completely invisible OHK/OHKO-ers) with another (assassins who don't even know how to tell they forgot to hide again). I have a lot of ideas about how to make sneak/hide more interesting and realistic, and both more fun to play with and play against, if you guys are interested in hearing them in the future.
The problem is, in order to have a long-term character that does -anything- that might get you crim-flagged, you have to be an undetectable ghost, or the crime code will nuke you from orbit.
Crimcode definitely needs to be fixed, too, but some of my stealth ideas would involve more risk of discovery from PCs without the crimcode necessarily coming down on you. I don't want to get into the meat of the ideas here, though, because it'd be off-topic.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 06, 2018, 11:19:35 AM
The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.
I'm curious why?
The combinations of stealth + backstab/sap/blowgun use aren't the only ones that are affected, but they do seem to be the ones most affected by the change. There's even an option to master charge without ever being able to master ride. With the way ride works, that seems like a recipe for a lot of falls.
If there's something I'm missing about these combinations, and the reasoning behind changing their effectivity, I'd much appreciate being informed. If it falls in line with sleepyhead's post, it seems like skill combinations aren't the problem and the way stealth works should be given a look.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 06, 2018, 11:19:35 AM
The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.
Does that mean adding a "Spy" extended subguild that only gets Master Sneak/Hide/Listen and advanced scan would be out of the question? Maybe give them flee too. This wouldn't have any combat abilities, so it wouldn't have the previous slipknife concern. And any character that took this specifically in order to have backstab and stealth at master would be hyper-specialized with no "cover" skills to pretend to be anything else. Personally, I think that
is a tradeoff.
I think a spy extended subguild would have much further non-combat application, as well. I'd like to use that sub on a merchant. It'd give non-combat characters a realistic defense when in danger(run and hide) or allow you to play a merchant/spy concept.
I'm happy that rogue was improved. I found that extended subclass a little disappointing when I tried it in the past, particularly the pick skill which I thought was meant to be its signature skill. Now I'd be more inclined to choose that subclass again.
I've never been great at stealth so perhaps something is happening that I have not understanding of.
If I have scan on and someone is successfully hiding, I can see a shadow, but I can't know who or what it is. If their hide is good enough, even with scan on I can't see them at all. If their hide is terrible, I can just see them. Right?
Similar with listen and sneak.
It was changed so that stealth activities are more effective at night, or at least, that for crim code, at night if I am caught doing something sneaky, there is a chance I won't be insta ganked or arrested by NPC guards.
Is all that accurate?
where's my edgy nilazi subclass its been five years i want to play 1 staff please :'(
Seriously though, rogue and cutpurse, just like pickpocket/burgler were with the miscreant, should be merged as they offer the exact same utility except one can pick pockets and the other can pick locks. Their skillset should be pick (Jman) hide (advanced) sneak (advanced), steal (advanced) and peek (advanced).
Branching is pickmaking (branched off pick, apprentice), and scan (advanced, branched off of peek) .
Hide/sneak should be city only, as should scan.
Quote from: yousuff on August 08, 2018, 04:17:15 PM
where's my edgy nilazi subclass its been five years i want to play 1 staff please :'(
Seriously though, rogue and cutpurse, just like pickpocket/burgler were with the miscreant, should be merged as they offer the exact same utility except one can pick pockets and the other can pick locks. Their skillset should be pick (Jman) hide (advanced) sneak (advanced), steal (advanced) and peek (advanced).
Branching is pickmaking (branched off pick, apprentice), and scan (advanced, branched off of peek) .
Hide/sneak should be city only, as should scan.
I think the split is fine. Cutpurse also gets sap, and you have to choose between advanced peek or advanced watch.
Quote from: Brokkr on August 06, 2018, 11:19:35 AM
The primary situation for that is stealth + backstab/sap, and that was completely intentional.
This intention makes me sad.
So Brokkr never really replied to any of my posts, and said the window for feedback is quickly closing a few days ago. Is this discussion considered closed, or is it still ongoing?
Quote from: Brokkr on August 03, 2018, 10:51:53 PM
I made a thing.
(https://i.imgur.com/aE4jKd6.jpg)
It's Mansa's spreadsheet, updated for subclass revisions.
Skill level descriptions in green had the skill go up, or added. Skill level descriptions in red had the skill go down, or removed. Sometimes you will see a skill that has the same description as before, but it is either red or green. This means the numeric value went up or down, but it is still within the same skill range that goes with that descriptor. In general, the same skill will have the same values across a karma level, with a handful of exceptions. Those exceptions should all have different word descriptions, and thus be obvious.
In general, I split skills up into either combat, survival, or crafting. The following are general rules of thumb I used, may be a few exceptions to this here and there. With the guild structure, every skill has a theoretical level it would be for each class. So while a particular combat skill like slashing weapons may not be on any Heavy Merchantile classes, there is a value it would be at (the same as the weapon skills they do have) if they did have it. That is what the below refers to, when referencing skill levels.
For 0 karma subclasses, combat skills are below what any class would get them at, survival skills are no better than the worst class, and crafting skills are no better than the second worst class.
For 1 karma subclasses, survival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.
For 2 karma subclasses, combat skills are no better than the 3rd best class, suvival skills are no better than the 2nd best class, and crafting skills are (typically) at the level of the second best class.
The idea was to tie subclass maximum skill levels back to skill levels of the classes, while recognizing that certain skills are more beneficial and/or allow more impact when used against other PCs than others. Thus the tiering from combat to suvival to crafting.
For 1 karma and 2 karma subclasses, the split was determined by whether the subclass receives any combat skills. If it does not, it is 1 karma. If it does, it is 2 karma.
Is this change implemented now?
I haven't read this thread in detail, but I think Outdoorsman should get climb, like the lower cost Grebber does.
(Though not up for discussion :P) I'd add my vote to Artisan get custom crafting. Surely all Salaari/ Kadian maker hopefuls should be of some long term use?
Do Spec apps continue to cover gaps in the wishlist?
Back when full merchants could custom craft, a crafter in your House who could do so was worth their weight in gold, and I'm assuming that now since only custom crafter subguilds can do so(?), that's the only thing a House is really looking for? Every noble is on the list at Kadius to have some weird little trinket made, and occasionally they are displeased with it and send it back to be remade. There's always a list, always a string of things that are needed to be made. I'm sure the same thing happens at Salaar, maybe a little less often.
Maybe if a crafter becomes a full paid crafter at their House, they can apply for the ability to custom craft? That would fix it, actually, I think. But someone would have to write the code for it.
The only code involved in this "skill" is the request tool allowing you to proceed automatically, I'd say.
Choosing a class/subclass always locks you in, or out, from some paths, but I feel this was a step too far.
I have liked the freedom of starting a crafter whose day job started as other honest/dishonest work of some sort. I would never have chosen one of the appropriate subguilds for my grebber of a few years ago that ended up as an unplanned Kadian.
Actually, I wouldn't have been able to even craft the simple tool that was one of her reasons for being, without sacrificing her grebbing abilities. (Ironically, that was taken away from her down the track when Scav was removed.)
I remembered that your pc could forage for food when we were both in Kadius, and the whole northern band was out in Old Tuluk for some reason, I think just for fun.
It would be nice to be able to automatically change your subguild, or apply to have it changed in a way that would be easy and automatic for staff. Being able to do it once, I mean. Starting out as a tailor in Storm, joining the Byn, and then losing your sewing skills to fully become a warrior, just as one example. Oocly a lot of people end up with subguilds they can't use because they went down an unplanned path.
I don't think that it should only be members of GMH houses that can custom craft. This is one of the last bastions of real competition that independent crafters have with GMHs, and making this change would be super-unrealistic. The one significant thing that an independent person can do to compete with corporations in a corporate world is to innovate, and come up with new inventions or product ideas.
I think it would be far better to just allow the 3 heavy mercantile classes to mastercraft as part of their core class setup: Fence, Dune Trader, and Artisan = Automatic Custom Crafting.
Then leave the 0-cost custom crafter subguild available in case someone with a different class wants to moonlight as a custom crafter.
Quote from: Heade on September 04, 2018, 11:42:04 AM
I think it would be far better to just allow the 3 heavy mercantile classes to mastercraft as part of their core class setup: Fence, Dune Trader, and Artisan = Automatic Custom Crafting.
Then leave the 0-cost custom crafter subguild available in case someone with a different class wants to moonlight as a custom crafter.
Uh, if 1/3 of the classes can master craft then it wouldn't be special
at all and the GMHs would quickly become a joke.
Would also risk burning out staff members who have to create and load the objects. Idk if this is still an issue or not, but I do know that there were no custom crafts for a couple of years, and that was one of the reasons given.
I could see giving it to Artisan on crafts they have at advanced or better. Or anyone else who chooses the Custom sub.
The change hasn't rolled out yet.
Heavy mercantile classes are 1/5 of all classes, not 1/3. It used to be 1/6 under the old system, so this is not a huge change.
I don't really think this is relevant, though, since not all classes were or will be equally popular. Under the old system, players chose ranger a lot more often than they chose pickpocket, and I assume the distribution will stay somewhat uneven under the new system, too. So 1/6 of all classes could translate to 1/3 of all player characters or 1/10, or anything in between, depending on how attractive they are. If you gave custom crafting to artisans only, that would not necessarily make it more special. I assume you would just end up with artisan being vastly more popular than fence or dune trader.
From what has been stated on discord, the issue were overly complex custom crafts that didn't fit the theme and required a lot of back and forth discussion to "fix" more so than the number of custom crafting submissions. I don't think the current changes are going to help with that, but I am repeating myself and I just hope staff is keeping an eye on which subclasses players choose for the mercantile classes.
Quote from: crymerci on September 04, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
Uh, if 1/3 of the classes can master craft then it wouldn't be special at all and the GMHs would quickly become a joke.
Would also risk burning out staff members who have to create and load the objects. Idk if this is still an issue or not, but I do know that there were no custom crafts for a couple of years, and that was one of the reasons given.
I could see giving it to Artisan on crafts they have at advanced or better. Or anyone else who chooses the Custom sub.
As Nao said, it's 1/5 of the classes, not 1/3. And popularity should be taken into account. The merchant class was essentially split up into 3 flavored classes: Fence, Dune Trader, and Artisan. I wouldn't have a problem if they wanted to make it how it was before, where those in these classes could submit 1 custom craft a month, but only in an area they have mastered. That would cut down on spam custom crafts by people with no time invested in their characters.
And beyond that, the current system just doesn't make sense from an IC perspective.
Amos Crafter(Heavy mercantile/Anything other than Crafter subguild), who has dedicated his life almost exclusively to crafting can't master craft a boot. But Jono Warrior(Warrior/Master Jeweler), who has spent his life becoming the greatest warrior in the known, ALSO makes mastercraft jewelry in his spare time. It's a joke.
The mastercrafting ESGs are probably the biggest factor in increased staff workload on custom crafting. I'd rather see them lose custom crafting than for the core, heavy mercantile classes, for whom custom crafting is their bread and butter, to have to essentially have no subguild in order to do. It's not fair, it doesn't make sense, and it's just silly.
I expect if staff took a close look at the numbers of people playing the various heavy mercantile classes, and how many of them end up choosing the 0-cost custom crafter perk(and thus get no real subguild), they'll probably find that this does little to reduce their workload. As someone who has thoroughly enjoyed playing crafters in the past, under the current system I feel like I'd be more likely to shoot for a light-combat guild with a mastercrafting ESG. You get the best of both worlds, and a character that has a vast array of skills. I suspect that we'll see more people who previously enjoyed the merchant class going a similar direction, and so it won't really be fewer custom crafting submissions. It'll just be more infiltrators/miscreants/enforcers/scouts/stalkers/fighters with a mastercraft ESG of some sort joining GMH's as a "Crafter".
As it stands right now, the heavy mercantile classes with the "custom crafter" sub are also probably the easiest combination in the game to guild-sniff. It's just a bad situation, overall, for the future of true merchant-style characters, in my opinion.
To be honest, I think a web app could be developed rather easily to eliminate the problem of staff workload on custom crafts. The web app could introduce more consistency in item performance based on materials used, type of item, difficulty, and intended item quality. Such a web app would eliminate the need for internal staff discussions regarding item stats by making it uniform based on those factors. Then the only thing that would be necessary is checking descriptions to ensure they fit in the world and don't contain misspellings, which wouldn't require a whole lot of back and forth between staff and players. Under such a system, custom crafts could probably move to a much less time-intensive thing towards a very casual thing, similar to character approvals, that could be done very quickly.
Reducing the time it takes to process mastercrafts like this, and thus potentially allowing more than 1 a month for certain class combinations, would encourage people to use those mastercrafts to make more simple items, reducing the bloat of super high-quality gear from the crafting system, as well.
+1
Before extended subguilds, your chances of getting a custom craft made were pretty good as long as the item fit the game world. After they were implemented for a while, you had to prove that the game world needed your idea to improve play for people, or else be someone paying Kadius to make you a thingamabob. I thought this was odd, and was a measure of OOC inequality between unclanned and clanned players (although to be honest, many of the people paying for these House customcraft slots weren't clanned either.)
I say make the web app, see how it goes, and if further changes are needed, simply make it so that Fence, Dune Trader and Artisan are the only ones who can custom craft--- leave the extended subguilds out of it. Giving ESGs custom crafting made the workload really heavy, it appeared to me as. Or, make it so that nonmerchant types only had custom crafting for things like armor, weapons, and stonecrafts---- stuff they'd be more likely to see every day, to have a job working with, rather than allowing Dorkadork the dwarven runner who can hit like a mek the ability to custom craft a silk pair of really tight-fitting jeans, or a length of glittering gold feather lining for a cape.
If I had to speculate, I would guess that the reason they are making you choose a master crafting or custom crafter subguild is to keep any magickers from having custom crafting, since they only have magick subguilds now.
Quote from: daughterofauset on September 05, 2018, 04:21:34 AM
If I had to speculate, I would guess that the reason they are making you choose a master crafting or custom crafter subguild is to keep any magickers from having custom crafting, since they only have magick subguilds now.
Why would it matter if Magickers had custom crafting? I guess I'm failing to see the logic behind your speculation.
Because with the setup restricted to subguilds only allowing magick and subguilds only allowing master crafting or custom crafting, the two are impossible to have on the same character. You can have combat, sneaky, or crafting types which can sub combat sneaky or crafting sub's to supplement their skills, only magickers cannot have another sub which would then allow them to custom make items.
Quote from: daughterofauset on September 05, 2018, 01:19:00 PM
Because with the setup restricted to subguilds only allowing magick and subguilds only allowing master crafting or custom crafting, the two are impossible to have on the same character. You can have combat, sneaky, or crafting types which can sub combat sneaky or crafting sub's to supplement their skills, only magickers cannot have another sub which would then allow them to custom make items.
While all this is true, I think what Heade is saying is that they are not sure why magickers being able to custom craft would be an important thing to guard against. I have to agree that this would be a strange design choice to build the system around. I suspect that it ended up this way more incidentally, but that it's being kept because it fits in with the "sorry, but you can't have it all" philosophy behind these changes. I don't agree with it, but that's my guess as to the motivation.
As for myself, I think it's a net loss when magickers aren't able to custom craft. Gemmed magickers in particular will have trouble finding mundanes who are willing to work with them and custom craft items. It would be nice to at least let them have the
possibility to have a custom crafting mercantile sort or two among them, even if it isn't a very popular choice. In addition, tribal magickers might want to CC ritual props, etc. I know not very many people were doing this, but I don't see why the potential should be taken away.
I've already beaten this horse to death and back, though.
Quote from: sleepyhead on September 05, 2018, 03:05:11 PM
Quote from: daughterofauset on September 05, 2018, 01:19:00 PM
Because with the setup restricted to subguilds only allowing magick and subguilds only allowing master crafting or custom crafting, the two are impossible to have on the same character. You can have combat, sneaky, or crafting types which can sub combat sneaky or crafting sub's to supplement their skills, only magickers cannot have another sub which would then allow them to custom make items.
While all this is true, I think what Heade is saying is that they are not sure why magickers being able to custom craft would be an important thing to guard against. I have to agree that this would be a strange design choice to build the system around. I suspect that it ended up this way more incidentally
Nailed it. My thoughts exactly.
I noticed, after looking at the docs for Fence, Dune Trader and Artisan, that they all get journeyman forage at the highest cap, and (I might be wrong, there might have been a normal subclass with advanced forage but I don't have time to check) the only subclass that gets master forage is Grebber at one karma point.
I understand that staff are working on new subclasses that will match the new classes, but I wanted to point out that there's hardly any subclass options now for upping your forage caps.
Quote from: Cind on September 08, 2018, 10:03:06 PM
I noticed, after looking at the docs for Fence, Dune Trader and Artisan, that they all get journeyman forage at the highest cap, and (I might be wrong, there might have been a normal subclass with advanced forage but I don't have time to check) the only subclass that gets master forage is Grebber at one karma point.
I understand that staff are working on new subclasses that will match the new classes, but I wanted to point out that there's hardly any subclass options now for upping your forage caps.
Isn't Grebber going to be advanced forage under the new changes too?
I don't believe that increasing the disparity, between no karma players, and high karma players, will help to with player retention.
I do like the new class system, but, if the chart is an indication, the direction of the new subs, is only to consolidate maximum coded power, in the hands of the high karma players. I don't see, how this will benefit the game, tbh.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on September 09, 2018, 08:15:33 AM
Quote from: Cind on September 08, 2018, 10:03:06 PM
I noticed, after looking at the docs for Fence, Dune Trader and Artisan, that they all get journeyman forage at the highest cap, and (I might be wrong, there might have been a normal subclass with advanced forage but I don't have time to check) the only subclass that gets master forage is Grebber at one karma point.
I understand that staff are working on new subclasses that will match the new classes, but I wanted to point out that there's hardly any subclass options now for upping your forage caps.
Isn't Grebber going to be advanced forage under the new changes too?
*splutters*
On reflection, is Laborer the
only class that gets Master forage? Don't seem right.
Quote from: Vex on September 09, 2018, 04:52:01 PM
I don't believe that increasing the disparity, between no karma players, and high karma players, will help to with player retention.
I do like the new class system, but, if the chart is an indication, the direction of the new subs, is only to consolidate maximum coded power, in the hands of the high karma players. I don't see, how this will benefit the game, tbh.
I agree with this sentiment, to a degree. And that's why I've been pushing for all of the ESGs to be reduced to 1 karma options. Currently, post-compression, many ESGs are costing the equivalent of what used to be 4-5 karma. I think that's silly.
#1Karma4ESGs
I'm of the opinion of replacing normal shitty subguilds with their extended cousins and making extended subs for those subs without equivalent extended subs, making them not cost karma, and keeping karma for race and magick options, like it used to be. Why do the lofty heights of advanced backstab require karma ???
Quote from: solera on September 09, 2018, 06:04:24 PM
On reflection, is Laborer the only class that gets Master forage? Don't seem right.
Miscreant and Stalker both get master forage, in their respective arenas.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 09, 2018, 11:33:20 PM
I'm of the opinion of replacing normal shitty subguilds with their extended cousins and making extended subs for those subs without equivalent extended subs, making them not cost karma, and keeping karma for race and magick options, like it used to be. Why do the lofty heights of advanced backstab require karma ???
It is, imo, a bit redundant, to have so many subs that overlap... with one simply being, a grade more powerful than the last. It reminds me of the ever popular, "pay2win" micros on most online games. You can have the free purple pet with no benefits, or you can pay for premium account for the green pet with +stats, or pay for platinum account for the red pet, and get +++stats.
If you have the money, you can have a way easier time with your grind, have more power in pvp, and have more content options earlier. The people, who can't pay, can still play... but they're there, really, so the paying players, have people to kick around and feel superior to.
That is how it looks to me, except, instead of money, you have to hang out in discord and schmooze.
I would rather, just pay the money...
I mean I have two karma and I have never schmoozed that I know of. Do I need to schmooze for three?
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 10, 2018, 12:46:03 AM
I mean I have two karma and I have never schmoozed that I know of. Do I need to schmooze for three?
Yes, this is my understanding of it.
GDB schmooze, will only take you so far...
I'm still of the opinion that it seems like all master skills are being lowered to advanced and all journeyman skills are being raised to advanced... While balance could be maintained by just keeping some master skills... And keeping some journeyman. Grebber should definitely stay master forage. And if you're going to argue "it's not that big a difference, this isn't a huge hill to die on" then why is it bad for it to stay Master?
It still just feels like everything is being turned into an averaged-out sludge. If something is super high advanced, why not make it super low Master? If something is super low advanced, why not make it super high Journeyman? It feels like everything is flat, no hills, no valleys, in regards to the changes with subguilds.
It may be codedly indistinct, but just from a psychological standpoint, everything being turned into one thing feels like that, like everything is an averaged sludge. We as players can't distinguish between high advanced and low advanced without extreme cross-multiple-characters testing.
I can't see my karma subclass options anymore. Forgot to bug it, and its too cloudy to bug it now. Are staff working on the new subclasses right now?
I know this is really late to the party, but with the nerfs to slipknife, would staff consider adding city hunt to their skillset?
I missed this fact the first time, but there is no subguild that gets it at all. Some level of scan might also be a good addition to slipknife to soften the nerf, particularly when paired with a daunting 2 CGP cost.
Quote from: Heade on September 14, 2018, 10:45:16 PM
I know this is really late to the party, but with the nerfs to slipknife, would staff consider adding city hunt to their skillset?
I missed this fact the first time, but there is no subguild that gets it at all. Some level of scan might also be a good addition to slipknife to soften the nerf, particularly when paired with a daunting 2 CGP cost.
Unless they changed how the city/wilderness system works and I missed the memo...
If your primary class is wilderness, and you get wilderness scan, listen, hunt, sneak, and hide...if your subclass gives you even one city version of one of these skills, you get both the city and wilderness versions of all of these skills, to whatever your primary guild class cap is.
I haven't rolled a cross-terrain class/sub in a really long time though, so I suppose it's possible they've changed it in the interim.
AFAIK that is not true any more. They are completely separate skills now.
Yeah, on the spreadsheet, Brokkr showed them as separate, and no subclass at all got city hunt. I think with the nerfs to slipknife, that'd be a good place for it. Could make the slipknife sub a good bounty-hunter type sub.
Quote from: Heade on September 15, 2018, 02:38:53 AM
Yeah, on the spreadsheet, Brokkr showed them as separate, and no subclass at all got city hunt. I think with the nerfs to slipknife, that'd be a good place for it. Could make the slipknife sub a good bounty-hunter type sub.
Pick a city class that gets 'hunting specialized for city environments' and any subclass with hunt and you get 'city hunt'.
Quote from: Nao on September 15, 2018, 02:52:29 AM
Quote from: Heade on September 15, 2018, 02:38:53 AM
Yeah, on the spreadsheet, Brokkr showed them as separate, and no subclass at all got city hunt. I think with the nerfs to slipknife, that'd be a good place for it. Could make the slipknife sub a good bounty-hunter type sub.
Pick a city class that gets 'hunting specialized for city environments' and any subclass with hunt and you get 'city hunt'.
That's not the point. What if you wanted to play a class that -doesn't- get city hunt, but you'd like to have city hunt for your concept from a sub? Not possible.
No subclass gets city hunt, yet 3 subclasses get wilderness hunt. I think it would be a good idea to add city hunt to slipknife, and bounty hunter, for that matter.
Except for, hmmm, listen, there is only one skill. Sneak, hide, hunt, etc. Then there are abilities that toggle where that skill will be effective...ie specialized for wildnerness stealth, etc. It is no longer and all or nothing thing, it is skill by skill.
That said, I did make a few tweaks since what was posted, I think there is a subclass that gets city hunt now. Its not slipknife.
Bounty hunter had city hunt.
Doesnt grebber get hunt?
Is there a Brute subclass? Apprentice chopping and disarm and hack at journeyman? Or was that idea scrapped?
Does Majordomo get guarding? http://armageddon.org/help/view/Majordomo
"....They have a proficiency for handling vehicles such as wagons, and this talent alongside their talent in observation and keeping a close guard on their employer lend surprisingly well to those in an aide position." But it doesn't reference guard in the last paragraph. Maybe 'guard' should be changed to 'watch' ?
Quote from: mansa on November 01, 2018, 12:13:49 AM
Does Majordomo get guarding? http://armageddon.org/help/view/Majordomo
"....They have a proficiency for handling vehicles such as wagons, and this talent alongside their talent in observation and keeping a close guard on their employer lend surprisingly well to those in an aide position." But it doesn't reference guard in the last paragraph. Maybe 'guard' should be changed to 'watch' ?
I think Majordomo used to have guard but it was removed and scan added.
I think there's a gap for a subclass that grants armor repair and/or alcohol/pain tolerance but is more attractive to non-city guilds than Mercenary.
Freelancer
Adv. Armor repair
Adv. City listen
Jrn. Haggle
Alcohol tolerance
Pain tolerance
I think those things put it into the 1-tkp range.
What are the advantages of alcohol and pain tolerance?
Quote from: Miradus on November 01, 2018, 01:58:24 AM
What are the advantages of alcohol and pain tolerance?
COUGHCOUGHPOISONRESISTANDNATURALARMORCOUGHCOUGH
alcohol tolerance means you can drink more initially before getting drunk, but that's self explanatory.
Quote from: Miradus on November 01, 2018, 01:58:24 AM
What are the advantages of alcohol and pain tolerance?
Pain Tolerance reduces your chances of being reeled.
So, I've been away for a little while, but I was just wondering what happened to master potter? Did it get rolled into something else? Because I was all hyped to play a potter right up until I got into char gen and now that I'm typing it out it DOES sound silly to be hyped to be a potter, but that was just the way of it at the moment.
I know there are mains that include it. Are there any subs?
Quote from: mansa on November 01, 2018, 12:13:49 AM
Is there a Brute subclass? Apprentice chopping and disarm and hack at journeyman? Or was that idea scrapped?
There was feedback that it sucked. Looking over it, it did indeed suck. So it got scrapped.
Quote from: Narf on November 01, 2018, 10:45:19 AM
Quote from: Miradus on November 01, 2018, 01:58:24 AM
What are the advantages of alcohol and pain tolerance?
Pain Tolerance reduces your chances of being reeled.
What Narf said.
Is it feasable to allow pain tolerance reduce damage from falls, etc? While some classes start with some boosts in it, it is technically something anyone can improve on, if I understood correctly.
Quote from: Dar on November 01, 2018, 01:54:52 PM
Is it feasable to allow pain tolerance reduce damage from falls, etc?
Neat idea.
Quote from: path on November 01, 2018, 10:58:51 AM
So, I've been away for a little while, but I was just wondering what happened to master potter? Did it get rolled into something else? Because I was all hyped to play a potter right up until I got into char gen and now that I'm typing it out it DOES sound silly to be hyped to be a potter, but that was just the way of it at the moment.
I know there are mains that include it. Are there any subs?
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Apparently during a migration stuff happened and...options ak) and an) no longer displayed. Or were selectable.
Look for a code release near you to fix this problem.
Master potter!
https://www.memecenter.com/fun/680190/i-could-watch-pottery-all-day (https://www.memecenter.com/fun/680190/i-could-watch-pottery-all-day)
Since the history docs recently got updated, I had a random thought today that it would be cool if some subguilds were tweaked/put on a rotation based on recent events.
One example was the "rebel" subguild which made sense when there was a northlands rebellion. There could be things like "cataclysm survivor", "southlands refugee", whatever. More work for staff, and I don't know about the feasibility.
I don't think the game can have too many subclasses/extended subclasses.
Variations on Outdoorsman, Master Trader, and more of what was done with Swordsman/Reaver come to mind.
With the new classes, there's a lot of overlap, and the "abilities" part of subclasses is a really good addition that I think could be expounded upon.
Since so many of the new classes, even heavy merchantile, receive weapons skills to JMan, then maybe the "apprentice" level for subclasses with weapon skills should at least be raised to journeyman, along with other skills.
I put in 30+ days with a legacy merchant/gladiator subguild and very relieved when that char died, especially after having played 30+ days with a legacy merchant/aggressor. The latter was actually able to hold his own against warriors, while the former went down hard and fast to legacy rangers till the very end. The difference was night and day.
Or thought could be put toward making the current "normal" subclasses more on-par with the extended subguilds, forming one large group of subclasses that could be tweaked as time goes on.
I like the classes and subclasses, and I don't think staff should be afraid to either make normal subclasses more "powerful," add new ones, or streamline the "special application" process for extended subguilds. I liked the idea of karma-less players being able to play one of a certain extended subguild every month or so. For instance, you begin with all extended subguilds open, even as a zero karma player, but once you've used that extended subguild, you must wait. If you *absolutely have to* play the same extended subguild twice in a row in less than a month, assuming you died fast, then that's what the extended subguild special app would be for.
... I like that! Karmaless players having ability to pick a subguild that would normally be karma level, but if they use it up, they cant pick it again for a long time. I love that idea.
I am against any plan which makes Arm players even more risk adverse than they already are.
Haven't staff said that subclasses are being re-worked too, now that main classes have been finished?
It seems like a good idea to figure out a way to use mundane subclasses to avoid guild-sniffing of crafters.
For instance, someone pins your character as heavy merchantile at a distance. Then they come at you with a sentence in Cavilish or Allundean to see if you're the sneaky heavy merchantile class or the Really Squishy one.
This kind of sniffing can be avoiding by picking, say, Linguist or Master Trader, but at the expense of being able to custom craft, which is an unfortunate tradeoff to just avoid being automatically pigeonholed.
Edited to add:
A possible solution might come in the form of subclasses that give: A) Allundean + Mastercrafting + something else, maybe listen or an enhancement to languages/wisdom or some other masking element, and B) Allundean + Mastercrafting + something else, maybe listen or an enhancement to languages/wisdom or some other masking element.
A sneaky subclass that offered Allundean + haggle + hide/sneak would be interesting as well.
I like the idea, in general, of subclasses that help block guildsniffing.
I've had a crafter concept on the burner, but every time I look at it, I realize how utterly vulnerable it'll be. The lack of scan, and listen, in particular, make it seem like a poor choice. I don't mind the custom crafter, or a master crafter sub, being a requirement for custom designs, but it does feel as though, being a heavy crafter, has too many negatives, and is entirely too vulnerable, to even the freshest of rogues swooping in, for an uncontested apartment kill.
I feel as though customer crafter sub, should at least come advanced scan and listen. Not only would it give appeal to classes with a few craft skills, but, it would also provide heavy crafters with some much needed survival skills.
No matter how I look at it, artisan and craftsman both, aren't choosing between "This skill and that skill", but between "Will a GMH hire me, or choose a better chance of surviving", as in my admittedly limited experience, GMH are ONLY interested in custom crafters.
I watched one interview, a while ago now, wherein the house member constantly asked, in different ways, if the applicant, had any "creative" things to show, or if she had her mind on any specific unique designs, and generally, boxed them into admitting, they didn't/couldn't. I thought it was, honestly, an extremely meta and crude way, to handle the situation, and treat the other player.
Advanced scan isn't so great, as to make them immune to being shadowed by professionals, but does mean that every fresh face rogue, can't score easy starting loot, by following them into an apartment and murdering them. Listen, imo, should come STANDARD, for any class, that is most probably going to be city based, at least to advanced as well.
But, if custom crafter remains the mainstay for heavy crafters to do custom crafts, at least include advanced scan and listen. It'll give the sub wider applications, and no doubt, provide heavy craft characters, better survival odds during infancy, but not an unfailing defense against more advanced threats later on.
Not really sure how listen is going to increase the odds of surviving?
If you're a squishy non-combat PC then a House crafter job is a dream come true... you have a guarded compound to sleep in and keep your stuff in! Even if you're not squishy... scan/listen isn't gonna save you from a determined and skilled assassin.
There are a lot of subguilds that offer master crafting-skill and custom crafting. Let's say your concept is to be a Salarr bladesmith. Fighter / Master Weaponsmith gets you custom crafting of swords, knives and spears of all types as well as being buff AF. Or lets say you want to be more widespread with your custom crafting because you're going to set up your own independent type shop but still want to be able to fight a bit. Laborer / Custom Crafter will let you defend yourself with all the weapon skills at a nice advanced level along with bash and disarm and kick and hack and parry and shield use - pretty solid combat potential there and you'll also be able to custom craft bandages, arrows, knives, swords, axes, tools, baskets, clay pots, clothing, stonecrafts and recipes! Sure you might not be able to custom craft master level new recipes but you get pretty close with advanced on a whole heck of a lot of different things there while still being quite buff! Remember custom crafting no longer needs you to grind out to master in the skill, you can now custom craft a novice recipe if you have novice skill rank and the custom crafting ability.
You don't need to restrict yourself to the Heavy Mercantile classes and the custom craft subguild. You can also be quite a prolific crafter and becomes insanely rich as a Heavy Mercantile class with a combat subguild and just using recipes other people have custom crafted.
Just about the only thing you cant do is me a master at most crafting skills, custom crafting in all of those skills, and be buff AF. Just like you can't be a Psionicist, Combat Sorcerer and Buff AF combat skills. There are some tradeoffs in a multi-player game.
Quote from: Bushranger on November 10, 2018, 09:26:30 PM
There are a lot of subguilds that offer master crafting-skill and custom crafting. Let's say your concept is to be a Salarr bladesmith. Fighter / Master Weaponsmith gets you custom crafting of swords, knives and spears of all types as well as being buff AF. Or lets say you want to be more widespread with your custom crafting because you're going to set up your own independent type shop but still want to be able to fight a bit. Laborer / Custom Crafter will let you defend yourself with all the weapon skills at a nice advanced level along with bash and disarm and kick and hack and parry and shield use - pretty solid combat potential there and you'll also be able to custom craft bandages, arrows, knives, swords, axes, tools, baskets, clay pots, clothing, stonecrafts and recipes! Sure you might not be able to custom craft master level new recipes but you get pretty close with advanced on a whole heck of a lot of different things there while still being quite buff! Remember custom crafting no longer needs you to grind out to master in the skill, you can now custom craft a novice recipe if you have novice skill rank and the custom crafting ability.
You don't need to restrict yourself to the Heavy Mercantile classes and the custom craft subguild. You can also be quite a prolific crafter and becomes insanely rich as a Heavy Mercantile class with a combat subguild and just using recipes other people have custom crafted.
Just about the only thing you cant do is me a master at most crafting skills, custom crafting in all of those skills, and be buff AF. Just like you can't be a Psionicist, Combat Sorcerer and Buff AF combat skills. There are some tradeoffs in a multi-player game.
Dude, heavy mercantile classes not getting to mastercraft and still have a subguild isn't a tradeoff. It's a slap in the face.
The answer to a class sucking shouldn't be, "Play another class that's better".
Currently, every single crafting ESG is better than the core mercantile classes in this one regard(master crafting). This idea flies in the face of all the other balance changes to classes/subclasses, where Brokkr directly stated that it was their intent for no ESG to outclass the "best in class" main classes. But, in this way, they do.
I always enjoyed playing the old merchant classes. I probably will never make a heavy mercantile character again as long as this remains the policy. It's unnecessarily punishing the already physically weakest classes in the game by making them choose between an ability that is intrinsic to their class, or a
real subclass.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 10, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Not really sure how listen is going to increase the odds of surviving?
It is my understanding, stealth detection, and noticing of stealth-based skills, are assisted, by having listen engaged. Am I wrong?
Quote from: Delirium on November 10, 2018, 07:27:09 PM
Even if you're not squishy... scan/listen isn't gonna save you from a determined and skilled assassin.
No, but it will help keep you alive in a city, like Allanak, that crawls with newbie rogues and subclass rogues, whilst you develop your crafts (income), and develop your social connections (protection). At which point, it doesn't matter if advanced scan and listen won't work on veteran rogues, who are taking notice of your squishy crafter, because you have the means to pay them off, and (potentially) the social protection, that makes taking you out, less ideal, than getting in on the payoffs, because veteran rogues, don't tend to want to piss off important people/entire city pops, who are getting a cut of said crafters sid.
Quote from: Bushranger on November 10, 2018, 09:26:30 PM
You don't need to restrict yourself to the Heavy Mercantile classes and the custom craft subguild. You can also be quite a prolific crafter and becomes insanely rich as a Heavy Mercantile class with a combat subguild and just using recipes other people have custom crafted.
Indeed, and this is my preferred solution, to the less than appealing state of heavy mercantile classes. I'll disagree with the non custom crafter option, however. If you're going the route of a heavy crafter, you are, imo, going to want the custom craft option, as you'll be disgustingly rich, regardless.
The difference in VALUE to a clan, or even as a goto independent, is night and day, if you can custom create items on demand. I don't even glance, at the potential for income, when thinking about my possible craft characters, because "CRAZY WOW" is already the baseline income, once established.
I wouldn't even look at a heavy crafter, without custom craft options, for the same reason I wouldn't use a sword on my miscreant, but that, might just be me.
My perception of this subclass master/custom thing:
If your intention is to get clanned and become a titled Crafter (with a capital C, not just codedly, but ICly considered as such) then your character is not likely to have much of an interest or time to spend on combat stuff. For that reason, IF you are intending to get your character clanned as a crafter, it's in your character's best interest to give him a heavy crafting class and subclass combination that results in both master craft and custom craft, of the crafting types of things your character is expecting to do in that clan.
So if you want your character to be a good fit for Salarr, then the main class and subclass will be attractive to Salarr: weapons, armor. If Kadius, then jewelry, clothing, furniture/woodworking.
If you want your character to end up in a specialized clan, then you need to accept that your character needs to specialize. No, he won't be any damned good at knocking out foes in a fight. But he's a CRAFTER. Crafters aren't supposed to care all that much about whether or not they can knock someone out in a fight. They're supposed to care about where they're getting their next length of silk. Or whether or not the cuirass they just made will please the noble who ordered it. Or - he can become influential enough to hire thugs to fight his battles for him.
If you want to just be good at fighting, AND at crafting, then you have to give something up in return. Whether that's master crafting, or custom crafting, or advanced parry, or listen/scan, or hide/sneak - etc.
There seems to be plenty of variety for everyone EXCEPT the people who insist that their non-combat character be good at combat.
And magickers that can custom craft.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 10, 2018, 10:42:31 PM
There seems to be plenty of variety for everyone EXCEPT the people who insist that their non-combat character be good at combat.
I don't think I've seen anyone, expecting to be good at combat with a heavy crafter? I could be wrong, as I have skimmed some, but I think the argument has tended towards, "I want variety", rather than "I want to do it all".
As was said earlier, "play a better class" isn't necessarily the kind of answer that sits well with people. There are a few small things that could be done, without any real upset, to make them equally attractive, as other class/sub crafting combos.
I really think, just some basics, like scan/listen, would make custom crafter attractive enough, to at least appease people unhappy with the general implementation, of custom crafts in the new class system.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 10, 2018, 10:42:31 PM
If you want to just be good at fighting, AND at crafting, then you have to give something up in return. Whether that's master crafting, or custom crafting, or advanced parry, or listen/scan, or hide/sneak - etc.
You're being a bit obtuse, here. Wanting to have ANY subclass AT ALL isn't just about wanting to be good at fighting and crafting. The fact is, heavy mercantile characters aren't "good" at crafting despite it being their primary class, unless they take a specific subclass that excludes them from doing literally ANYTHING ELSE. ICly, "good" crafters are the ones able to make custom orders.
And how do you justify people who are able to be the best warrior in the game ALSO being able to custom craft jewelry when a heavy mercantile/linguist cannot? It just makes no sense. It's not about merchants being awesomesauce at combat. Even if they got a REAL subguild choice, they wouldn't be that. It's about letting heavy mercantile characters do what they're SUPPOSED to do, while still being allowed to flesh out their concept with a subguild that actually does something, other than simply make them playable as what they ALREADY
should be. A primary crafter.
Fuck it. Just let us have legacy merchants again, as they were set up previously, as an option. And see how many people ever pick the heavy mercantile classes Vs. Legacy Merchant. The loss of custom crafting on heavy mercantile classes isn't worth any of the positives they got, because the custom crafting setup completely stymies any sort of character customization and creativity if you want to play a primary crafter.
Wait, you want legacy merchants?
Sooooooooooo.....you want us to take away all the crafting skills?
Sorry if you don't understand that comment, but the classes have evolved a lot over the years, and a lot of folks don't have full perspective on that.
I think there are other things that could be done to enhance crafting appeal more broadly than custom crafting for heavy merchants.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 11, 2018, 12:27:38 AM
Wait, you want legacy merchants?
Sooooooooooo.....you want us to take away all the crafting skills?
What? Legacy merchants had all the crafting skills. Is this a troll post from an admin+?
Not in 1996.
Right, because they didn't exist in 1996. That isn't legacy merchants. I'm using your own terminology, here with the term "legacy merchants", referring to merchants before the class changes went into effect. :P
Staff used the term when rolling out the class changes. I think it was even you, specifically, that used it. Though I could be wrong on that. In any case, it said "Legacy Merchants" would still be able to MC as per their previous documentation on the matter.
But I'm quite certain you already knew that. :)
Merchants have changed a bit over the years.
They started without crafting skills.
They had crafting skills, and master crafting wasn't a thing.
Eventually master crafting was made into a formal thing.
People still played them. All along.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 11, 2018, 12:43:34 AM
Merchants have changed a bit over the years.
They started without crafting skills.
They had crafting skills, and master crafting wasn't a thing.
Eventually master crafting was made into a formal thing.
People still played them. All along.
I really don't get what you're trying to say with this. Sure, master crafting didn't always exist in the game at all. But it does now, and has for around 15 years. And in that time, it has become part of what people expect from a merchant sort of character.
Just because it didn't exist at all at one time, that doesn't erase the current inequity that exists between the ESGs that have it, and the core mercantile classes that don't, when trying to fit into the CURRENT IC culture, which shifts over time based on what is and isn't available IG.
If mastercrafting suddenly didn't exist at all IG, then what you said would make sense. But it does, and it's important IC, so it's going to be a major consideration for people interested in playing "Merchant" characters. And currently, characters who only took crafting as a secondary ESG get custom crafting, while the core mercantile classes do not, if they want a subguild. With the truly mercantile core classes, if you can custom craft at all, you're playing a cookie cutter set of skills, because you get no subguild choice at all. Currently, a custom crafting heavy mercantile PC is one of the easiest classes in the game to fully guildsniff.
I'd be more in favor of completely separating Custom Crafting from ANY guilds/subguilds at all, and instead tying it to a binary on/off flag. Make it cost 1 karma to turn custom crafting on for a particular PC, and institute an automatic acceptance policy for 0-karma players who burn a spec app to play an otherwise mundane, non-karma PC who wants custom crafting turned on.
Or, just go back to the old system. In either case, the current system is offputting to people who historically enjoyed playing PCs who were primarily crafters/merchants. Generally, the only people I've seen in support of the current system are people who have admitted not really playing merchants much. So they benefit from the fact that the crafting ESGs turn custom crafting on, while not suffering at all from the existing dynamic between heavy mercantile classes and custom crafting.
In the best of cases, we're pushing those people away from the crafting classes they enjoyed to play other things, or shoehorning them into cookie cutter classes. In the worst of cases, we're pushing them away from the game.
I thought the point was fairly clear. Tuluk has apparently ruined me forever though.
People have enjoyed merchants all along. It has not, historically over the lifetime of merchants, been necessarily linked to custom crafting.
What has developed is a sense of entitlement, that crafter types should as a matter of course be able to custom craft, simply because for some time period they could. It is much like the questions we got on why new some new combat classes didn't get the skill skinning, because warriors had the skill skinning. Only, of course, warriors didn't always have the skinning skill.
Lack of custom crafting isn't really the main weakness of the crafting intensive classes, as I see it. At some point this will no doubt be reassessed, whether because we have addressed the main weakness, or simply through change in staff and their viewpoints.
It is important to remember timeframe though. Shifts often occur over years, not months.
...are you seriously going to fight this hard against the majority of your feedback-giving playerbase over custom crafting forever?
How long do we have to keep on pointing out that it's not a desirable idea before you start to do the side-to-side nod of your head and say 'Okay, maybe they really enjoy this and want it in their game in more places rather than less'? Because we can just set up scripts to keep reposting about entitlement and whatnot for that long.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 11, 2018, 02:10:29 PM
People have enjoyed merchants all along. It has not, historically over the lifetime of merchants, been necessarily linked to custom crafting.
What has developed is a sense of entitlement, that crafter types should as a matter of course be able to custom craft, simply because for some time period they could.
So, you're completely discounting the idea that custom crafting on every single extended subguild related to crafting highlights an inequity with the core crafting classes?
You yourself stated that it was the intention of staff to ensure extended subclasses didn't outclass the core classes in "what they're designed to do". Right now, that isn't the case here. GMH's are more likely to hire a warrior with a subclass Master X crafter than they are to hire a core heavy mercantile class without the custom crafter sub. This creates a massive IC percieved "value" disparity between the two, favoring the extended subguilds over the core classes. In NO other circumstance is that the case.
This isn't about entitlement. It's about letting them do what they're designed to do, IC. You wouldn't make such a claim about entitlement if we were talking about taking weapon skills away from a warrior, and requiring a warrior to take a specific subclass, that ONLY gave them weapon skills, in order to get them back. This is really no different. Both of them have
become intrinsic to the identity of the class, even if custom crafting didn't exist until 15 years ago.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 11, 2018, 02:10:29 PMLack of custom crafting isn't really the main weakness of the crafting intensive classes, as I see it.
With all due respect, it seems like a lot of people disagree with you. Now, I don't believe in correctness by commitee when it comes to objective truth. But with something as subjective as what people enjoy playing...it's pretty much the gold standard.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 11, 2018, 02:10:29 PM
People have enjoyed merchants all along. It has not, historically over the lifetime of merchants, been necessarily linked to custom crafting.
This was a long time ago, and the game has changed.
There is also a difference between playing a merchant that can't custom craft when it's available for other crafters, or the feature just not being available. You don't need to compete with other crafters that have that ability when the feature just doesn't exist.
What do you see as the major weakness of the mercantile classes? Players often pick a subguild to partially 'fix' a major weakness they see in a class or add some missing skills and abilities. We can't do that if we're forced to pick the custom crafting subguild to be useful to other characters, which seemts to be one reason the current setup is so unpopular.
I think custom crafting should just be 1 karma point per item. No need for a specific subclass.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 11, 2018, 03:50:23 PM
I think custom crafting should just be 1 karma point per item. No need for a specific subclass.
I think a per-item restriction is silly. Just have it be a binary on/off flag set at character creation for 1 karma, with automatic acceptance of special apps from 0-karma players that spec app a mundane, non-karma PC that wants custom crafting on.
Quote from: Heade on November 11, 2018, 03:53:21 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 11, 2018, 03:50:23 PM
I think custom crafting should just be 1 karma point per item. No need for a specific subclass.
I think a per-item restriction is silly. Just have it be a binary on/off flag set at character creation for 1 karma, with automatic acceptance of special apps from 0-karma players that spec app a mundane, non-karma PC that wants custom crafting on.
I imagine that depends on why the restriction is there in the first place. If its meant for class balance, then yes that wouldn't be a solution. If the restriction is there to prevent item bloat, that creating a per-item cost to custom crafting would be the /best/ solution (though the cost need not necessarily be karma).
Quote from: Narf on November 11, 2018, 04:13:23 PM
Quote from: Heade on November 11, 2018, 03:53:21 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 11, 2018, 03:50:23 PM
I think custom crafting should just be 1 karma point per item. No need for a specific subclass.
I think a per-item restriction is silly. Just have it be a binary on/off flag set at character creation for 1 karma, with automatic acceptance of special apps from 0-karma players that spec app a mundane, non-karma PC that wants custom crafting on.
I imagine that depends on why the restriction is there in the first place. If its meant for class balance, then yes that wouldn't be a solution. If the restriction is there to prevent item bloat, that creating a per-item cost to custom crafting would be the /best/ solution (though the cost need not necessarily be karma).
I disagree. If the current situation is to prevent item bloat, then attaching a karma cost to an on/off flag would be similarly effective to the situation we have right now. People with 1 karma, currently, may use it for a subguild that lets them custom craft, and people who don't have karma can take a 0-karma subguild to do so. My proposed alternative would require 0-karma players to burn a spec app(limited to 2 per year) to have a PC able to custom craft, in theory, making 0-karma custom crafters even more rare than they are now, while giving them the ability to choose a REAL subclass when they DO exist.
Bringing up the fact that merchants did not always have crafting from a time when there simply was NO crafting at all sort of a straw man.
Once there was crafting, master crafting was a thing pretty much right off the bat, Oh sure you had to RP a bunch and ask staff to make it, but it was there from the VERY beginning...In fact...a merchant could master craft before crafting existed and through the same means. I remember "mastercrafts" Back in '93' and beyond, Called player submitted items.
I am actually (oddly) in agreement with most the people here in that mastercrafts SHOULD be main class...and if I had my way, not subclass at all. It makes no sense at all for a subclass, something really meant more for flavor/variety to be better at something then a main class...In fact Brokkr, aside from the crafting subs you yourself have said that they should not be.
Oh, there was also a time when, as a GMH PC, if you had a good imm, then they would custom-craft items on a weekly basis. And they weren't really ever rejected, except for like this one time when I submitted a pair of feline-shaped, orange-tinted sunslits for another PC.
I was playing a GMH PC when crafting was implemented and used no coded skills (what, make things? totally beneath a silk-clad signet-ring wearer) but was still able to submit multiple versions of "mastercraft" items on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. Again, it depended on your imm.
You also had to keep up with all your minion PCs, if they were dead or not, and when to pay them.
RE: Lots of objects being imp'd and whether or not that's bad.
If staff are struggling to keep up with mastercraft items, bad.
If staff are holding in there and want to keep fleshing out potential mastercraft items and craftable items as an entirety, good.
Personally, after having a lapse in terms of years between playing crafters, I'm glad that the most basic ingredients now seem to have WAY more options, but there is still room for improvement, as long as it doesn't impact staff ability to do even better stuff.
I also think players should be more willing to use just basic ingredients as opposed to weird combinations of shit because the end result is people having more options to craft, overall. I understand not wanting everyone to start copying your new object, but seriously, arcane crafting recipes should be left to the wayside in favor of recipes that the game, overall, might benefit from.
Whether or not master crafting is good or bad is difficult for a standard player to comment on because it's hard to have an idea of how big of a pain in the ass creating new items is/how many people are doing it on a regular basis. Without that kind of info, I hesitate to comment or weigh in one way or the other.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 11, 2018, 03:50:23 PM
I think custom crafting should just be 1 karma point per item. No need for a specific subclass.
MM, that is all savage and no chill.
I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but maybe player-characters should put less emphasis on custom crafting themselves. Every noble/templar/whatever person doesn't need their own special unique item, do they? Are GMHs really constantly looking for shiny new [thingamabob] and won't hire anyone but a custom crafter so they can get it? Why? There's probably literally thousands of pretty/badass/whatever crafts already in the game that people could dig up to use instead, and sure it won't be made just for you but it's also not your run of the mill ordinary [thingamabob] either. Stop making crafter classes feel bad because they didn't take a custom craft subguild. And maybe the situation might eventually tip back to a more reasonable level.
Disclaimer: I'm not against heavy mercantile classes getting custom crafting, I'm just against custom crafting being the end-all be-all of a crafter character.
Quote from: Alesan on November 11, 2018, 07:09:41 PM
I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but maybe player-characters should put less emphasis on custom crafting themselves.
Personally, I agree, but I do think the craft-based classes should have something to distinguish themselves from any rando with the appropriate craft skill.
If it were up to me, there'd just be a bunch of items that you could not even attempt to craft unless you had a certain level of craft skill, and then make it so only the mercantile classes could reach that level in many of the crafts.
Alternatively, allow mercantile crafts to make superior versions of other items as a special ability.
Both of these would make them valuable without contributing to item bloat in the game. The first one would even be easy to do with the current code.
I would lean towards mercantile guilds being master crafters, over subguilds.
They give enough up, their specialties should definitely lie in crafting.
Just a thought, but if part of the intent is restricting/limiting the amount of mastercraft submissions coming in from primary class crafters, what about different cooldowns? For example: Light Mercantile once every 3 months, Heavy Mercantile every 2 months, Custom Crafter/ESG master subguilds every month?
Quote from: Lancer on November 12, 2018, 08:34:11 AM
Just a thought, but if part of the intent is restricting/limiting the amount of mastercraft submissions coming in from primary class crafters, what about different cooldowns? For example: Light Mercantile once every 3 months, Heavy Mercantile every 2 months, Custom Crafter/ESG master subguilds every month?
Why would the extended subguilds get to do it more often than the core crafters? Again, doesn't make sense within the theme of not having extended subguilds outshine the core classes.
Quote from: Heade on November 12, 2018, 09:03:23 AM
Why would the extended subguilds get to do it more often than the core crafters? Again, doesn't make sense within the theme of not having extended subguilds outshine the core classes.
They're already doing it more often than the core classes. Make a case for flipping the cooldowns around if you want, I was just throwing out an option to get the classes capable of doing it at all.
Quote from: Lancer on November 12, 2018, 09:10:56 AM
Quote from: Heade on November 12, 2018, 09:03:23 AM
Why would the extended subguilds get to do it more often than the core crafters? Again, doesn't make sense within the theme of not having extended subguilds outshine the core classes.
They're already doing it more often than the core classes. Make a case for flipping the cooldowns around if you want, I was just throwing out an option to get the classes capable of doing it at all.
The issue isn't that they want subguilds doing it more. That'd be an absurd case to make. No one has ever argued that subguilds should be better at something than the main classes.
The issue is that someone had the idea to tie custom crafting solely to subguilds as some sort of a tradeoff that really isn't a tradeoff at all, but rather a crippling of the core classes. Just as if weapon skills were taken away from a warrior and added to a subguild the warrior had to take to get them back. They'd have never tried to do that, but someone apparently doesn't think that custom crafting matters on an IC level to the core classes that have always had it since it's inception. It's integral to their identity, and has only been made different very recently, in a disastrously failed experiment.
20 years ago, the game was different and Merchants couldn't Master Craft.
Some time between then and now, they were given the ability to affect the world through adding items to the game, as scripting the process and the item database's control were loosened a bit.
That makes all you players "entitled" (as a pejorative) to this thing you have had for, lets estimate, 10 straight years. You were ALLOWED to do something fun, because staff wanted you to enjoy their game and bring something unique to it.
That is not the case anymore. Staff cannot trust the players to keep their items both "in line" with the universe and described "accurately". That makes you "entitled" as a pejorative, and open for mocking by the game's top Producer. If you want to have access to do the thing you've been allowed to do for 10 years, you're going to have to sacrifice more out of your concept.
(Take from this what you will, dear reader. I cannot possibly fathom how "Heavy Mercantile" classes cannot possibly have the creativity to make a unique item, even if only granted to them when they've become a master, as under the old system. Let a Subguild Swordsmith make custom crappy blades their whole life, but a Heavy Mercantile swordsmith is capable only of truly wondrous creations.)
I actually checked my statement from earlier for accuracy. Custom Crafting was introduced for merchants roughly 15 years ago.
October 27, 2004 to be precise.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,11145.msg108788.html#msg108788 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,11145.msg108788.html#msg108788)
The first sentence highlights a continuing issue, the emphasis on content vs the emphasis on roleplay.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 12, 2018, 12:01:42 PM
October 27, 2004 to be precise.
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,11145.msg108788.html#msg108788 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,11145.msg108788.html#msg108788)
The first sentence highlights a continuing issue, the emphasis on content vs the emphasis on roleplay.
Yup, almost exactly 14 years ago(which is why I said roughly 15, and not just 15). Of course, as referenced in that post, crafting submissions were a thing before that. But at this point, we're splitting hairs. The fact is, on an IC basis, custom crafting has become an important part of what merchants/heavy mercantile characters do, even if it is infrequent.
No, not every character even uses it, but even for characters that never do, it may very well have been a part of why they chose that class, and have been part of their RP, despite not getting to use the ability. I'm sure many PCs die before they ever get a chance to submit a custom craft. With as long as custom crafts take to get made, I've had plenty of PCs die while waiting for an item to get finished.
But, for many crafter/merchant PCs, custom crafting is part of the dream. Part of the idea for long-term goals for the character, perhaps feeding into the idea of starting their own business, or to assist in climbing the ranks of a GMH. It is, quite often, an RP hook that leads to lots of interaction with other PCs. Because a PC can go to just ANY weapon crafter to get a basic bone sword. But if they're looking for something special, they have to work closely with someone capable of creating that.
Custom crafting has led to a TON of IC interaction and created innumerable opportunities for plot as people vie for the elusive and infrequent services of a custom crafter. I just think it's doing merchants/heavy mercantile characters a great disservice to subject them to being second-class crafters in this regard.
Quote from: Armaddict on November 11, 2018, 02:18:44 PM
...are you seriously going to fight this hard against the majority of your feedback-giving playerbase over custom crafting forever?
How long do we have to keep on pointing out that it's not a desirable idea before you start to do the side-to-side nod of your head and say 'Okay, maybe they really enjoy this and want it in their game in more places rather than less'? Because we can just set up scripts to keep reposting about entitlement and whatnot for that long.
+1
Quote from: Alesan on November 11, 2018, 07:09:41 PM
I know this is not going to be a popular opinion, but maybe player-characters should put less emphasis on custom crafting themselves. Every noble/templar/whatever person doesn't need their own special unique item, do they? Are GMHs really constantly looking for shiny new [thingamabob] and won't hire anyone but a custom crafter so they can get it? Why? There's probably literally thousands of pretty/badass/whatever crafts already in the game that people could dig up to use instead, and sure it won't be made just for you but it's also not your run of the mill ordinary [thingamabob] either.
Unfortunately for most of my legacy class Kadians this was the case; hardly anyone needed any one crafter's particular ability to make a necklace that anyone with jewelrymaking could make. For that, all you needed was one crafter who could do it reasonably well, and there was almost always one or two long-lived legacy merchants who could make everything well.
But special items? Kadius might have had three merchant guild players, if they were lucky, working on a list of twelve custom crafts for that RL year (actually, it was more, but around a dozen to fourteen were usually considered high priority.) That was, if someone didn't store out of boredom. Many of the people buying the crafts were the type to live a long time, keeping us from scratching them off the list and moving on to other projects. Because many clients were nobles, aides and templars, we felt an IC pressure that probably extended to OOC to get to their projects first, and these were the people who were least likely to die before we sent in our custom crafts to be inspected by staff.
Let me tell you, people LOVE their black capes lined with green snake embroidery. Can't get enough of them. Once in a while, they don't like it, and send it back.
Is this really a hill worth dying on?
I know some players really like their custom crafts. But couldn't they just put in a spec app for their Craftsman/Grebber and ask for the ability to custom craft?
Quote from: tapas on November 14, 2018, 09:22:28 AM
Is this really a hill worth dying on?
I know some players really like their custom crafts. But couldn't they just put in a spec app for their Craftsman/Grebber and ask for the ability to custom craft?
Brokkr has repeatedly said he hasn't decided whether or not we should be able to special app the ability to custom craft on characters that wouldn't usually have the ability. If he's finally given an answer to this, I haven't seen it. Of course, it makes zero sense not to let people do that from my perspective. People only get two special apps per year now, and most people will still probably just use them to play concepts above their karma level. It shouldn't create that much more work. But I don't make that decision, and the last time I heard anything about it from Brokkr, he was saying he had not made up his mind about whether he'll allow it.
Even if they could not mastercraft through special app, I would agree with Alesan that the game does not need dozens of new MC's a year.
I'm not worried that there won't be a sufficient quantity of CCs. I'm not complaining because I want there to be more fancy custom doublets for Lord Whatshisface. I would just like it so that people who want to be able to CC can have the flexibility with their concepts that they used to have.
Quote from: tapas on November 14, 2018, 09:34:11 AM
Even if they could not mastercraft through special app, I would agree with Alesan that the game does not need dozens of new MC's a year.
It's about the roleplay, not really the items themselves. It's about a dedicated, lifelong crafter being able to provide another PC with something unique, in an expression of their mastery of their craft, in order to facilitate interaction, value, and friendship IC. In a world where people constantly express OOCly their problem with the IG economy, and how bribing people with sid is so absurdly difficult because no one needs it, custom crafts remain something rare, and so they hold their value, despite IG sid inflation. They can be used as a trump card bribe, or gift, that few other PCs can offer.
The problem is, many people who don't play merchant PCs don't understand their role, and how they fit into the game world. They don't want to play them because heavy mercantile's suck at doing all the things that they, themselves, enjoy about the game. And so, they often undervalue the things that are important to the crafting role. The ability to create custom items is one of the greatest tools in a merchant's arsenal to engender a sense of loyalty, or at least value from another PC. Because, both IC and OOC, people recognize the sort of time commitment and effort that is put into a custom craft. So, when you use one to give another PC something, it is a big deal. When you dedicate your custom crafts to the furthering of a GMH goals, you are a valuable asset.
And merchants NEED to be valuable to other PCs. THAT is their survival mechanism. You get go have that "master" flag next to hide, flee, parry, dual wield, etc as your mechanism of survival. Heavy Mercantile PCs require that they be valuable to OTHER PCs who have those skills, in order to survive. That's how they work. So, by taking away their strongest tool to that end, it puts them in a place where they aren't particularly valuable to anyone, but also have few survival skills of their own.
You know, in many instances, with the new heavy mercantile classes, I'd give back their modicum of jman weapon skill, just to have the inborn ability to custom craft instead. That custom craft ability will likely contribute more to a Dune Trader's survival than low jman piercing weapons will.
Quote from: Heade on November 14, 2018, 01:20:58 PM
Quote from: tapas on November 14, 2018, 09:34:11 AM
Even if they could not mastercraft through special app, I would agree with Alesan that the game does not need dozens of new MC's a year.
It's about the roleplay, not really the items themselves. It's about a dedicated, lifelong crafter being able to provide another PC with something unique, in an expression of their mastery of their craft, in order to facilitate interaction, value, and friendship IC. In a world where people constantly express OOCly their problem with the IG economy, and how bribing people with sid is so absurdly difficult because no one needs it, custom crafts remain something rare, and so they hold their value, despite IG sid inflation. They can be used as a trump card bribe, or gift, that few other PCs can offer.
The problem is, many people who don't play merchant PCs don't understand their role, and how they fit into the game world. They don't want to play them because heavy mercantile's suck at doing all the things that they, themselves, enjoy about the game. And so, they often undervalue the things that are important to the crafting role. The ability to create custom items is one of the greatest tools in a merchant's arsenal to engender a sense of loyalty, or at least value from another PC. Because, both IC and OOC, people recognize the sort of time commitment and effort that is put into a custom craft. So, when you use one to give another PC something, it is a big deal. When you dedicate your custom crafts to the furthering of a GMH goals, you are a valuable asset.
And merchants NEED to be valuable to other PCs. THAT is their survival mechanism. You get go have that "master" flag next to hide, flee, parry, dual wield, etc as your mechanism of survival. Heavy Mercantile PCs require that they be valuable to OTHER PCs who have those skills, in order to survive. That's how they work. So, by taking away their strongest tool to that end, it puts them in a place where they aren't particularly valuable to anyone, but also have few survival skills of their own.
You know, in many instances, with the new heavy mercantile classes, I'd give back their modicum of jman weapon skill, just to have the inborn ability to custom craft instead. That custom craft ability will likely contribute more to a Dune Trader's survival than low jman piercing weapons will.
I agree with the idea that the heavy mercantile needs to be special. Honestly, there's just not as much a difference between having an advanced craft and a master craft in comparison to a lot of other skills. I played a long lived merchant a couple years ago and the only reason to even bother raising your craft skills past high journeyman was to save on material costs or mastercraft. Compare that to stealth or combat skills, which give much larger payouts for mastering them.
That said, I don't think mastercrafting is a good way to make them special. It takes forever to use, takes some system mastery that new players aren't likely to have, and contributes to item bloat in the game.
I'm of the opinion that new items should be added to the game on an 'as needed' basis, not as a perk to characters. However, that means that the heavy mercantile classes need something else to set them apart from the dabblers.
is item bloat an actual problem, for the game, or just an invented problem for yourself?
Quote from: Narf on November 14, 2018, 01:50:27 PM
That said, I don't think mastercrafting is a good way to make them special. It takes forever to use, takes some system mastery that new players aren't likely to have, and contributes to item bloat in the game.
Yeah, I don't see "item bloat" as any sort of problem. More and varied items don't do anything negative to the game. It only makes the world more varied and "alive" feeling, by having people legitimately wearing completely different things, rather than preset "groups" of items you see every character of X type wearing. Just the same as subclasses. There is no such thing as too many.
The more personal someone's style and skill combinations can be, the better, in my opinion.
I still think, just having an on/off flag set at character creation for custom crafting, costing 1 karma in the current karma system would be ideal, with automatic acceptance of 0-karma player special apps that ONLY request that flag on an otherwise completely mundane PC. Separate custom crafting from classes/subclasses entirely. No class/subclass gets it by default at all. It'd strictly be something players would either have to pay karma for, or spec app for.
I guess, if that system was implemented, you could keep the 0-karma custom crafter option available, and see if people still select it at all, or if people vastly prefer to use the karma/spec app option.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 14, 2018, 03:58:20 PM
is item bloat an actual problem, for the game, or just an invented problem for yourself?
It's been stated that the staff don't want to create items that are near duplication of other items in the database. Item creation is low on the priority list next to helping facilitate stories.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53794.msg1012788.html#msg1012788
There's something here:
Brokkr:
We've talked about GMH having a certain number of crafting slots per month, or perhaps in consultation with their Storyteller and Admin. The nice thing is that their crafts tend to have more potential to drive plots, rather than simply being one off vanity pieces not tied into some sort of plot. We haven't firmed things up, and a large part is going to be seeing what the GMH Admin wants to do in this regards.https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53794.msg1013609.html#msg1013609
Brokkr:
These restrictions are in place to limit staff workload, just as they have been since they started.Quote from: Brokkr on October 17, 2018, 07:10:23 PM
Request reviewed by your Storyteller. Request reviewed and OK to make the item from the Admin for the appropriate group.
then
Storyteller makes the item. Storyteller makes the craft recipes. Storyteller submits item and craft recipe for approval. Admin reviews and approves item and craft recipes. Admin makes the craft recipe go live.
The high quality of writing and world fit you see in our items requires something a bit more than a single person looking at what you submit and then making it so.
This was really a good thread, ( https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54064.0.html ) and I feel like we're going in circles with our arguments right now.
I think one of the problems here is that most items in the database aren't accessible to players. They don't know the recipe, have no way to find out when the item is not in game other than trial and error, and with up to five ingredients per craft? There are trillions of possible combinations and you're just not going to find the recipes with more than two (or three, if you get really lucky with common ingredients) of ingredients by trial and error.
It would be interesting to see some data on how many recipes use 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 items.
We really need to just find a way to release craft recipes to the playerbase. Ideally this would be in some kind of list format visible to those with the skill (and, if applicable, clan) to unlock them. Keeping craft recipes secret causes more problems than it solves, and it means countless objects get lost once their creators are gone.
Releasing the craft lists could very easily sate a lot of mercantile appetites who could gobble up however many hundreds of recipes they didn't know about, and the player base starts asking for items already custom crafted they haven't ever seen, but which sound appealing/made of rare/interesting materials/raw curiosity/perfect plot related item that already exists
One of my favorite MC plotlines was centered around a noble demanding a new, custom armchair so that he could lord it over people at meetings.
It had to be made of duskhorn leather. Be stuffed with cotton. Scrab shell carved and gilded arm rests. Ash tray for TOTALLY NOT SPICE (because he was Southern).
The Byn was engaged to assist the House Hunters in finding the materials. And not just "a" duskhorn pelt. They needed a dozen in total, to make sure that it was all high quality, no holes, etc. It wasn't just "a" scrab shell to carve. There was room for failure. The cotton had to be picked, or bought, in Tuluk for the stuffing and it took a LOT of cotton.
A lot of work CAN go into Mastercrafts. On the flip side, I once submitted a mastercraft that I emoted three times, was just a simple carving, and was of no use except it went into ANOTHER master craft as an ingredient.
I'm ambivalent. I want the ability to custom craft something if I pick a heavy mercantile character. But I shouldn't be allowed to "just submit" because its been a month.
Quote from: Riev on November 15, 2018, 10:57:19 AM
One of my favorite MC plotlines was centered around a noble demanding a new, custom armchair so that he could lord it over people at meetings.
It had to be made of duskhorn human leather skin. Be stuffed with cotton magicker scalps. Scrab shell Carved skulls and gilded arm rests (made of child arm-bones). Ash tray Cup-holder for TOTALLY NOT SPICE elven-blood filled sipping chalice (because he was Southern).
There. A MC I would get behind.
Quote from: Delirium on November 15, 2018, 02:16:56 AM
We really need to just find a way to release craft recipes to the playerbase. Ideally this would be in some kind of list format visible to those with the skill (and, if applicable, clan) to unlock them. Keeping craft recipes secret causes more problems than it solves, and it means countless objects get lost once their creators are gone.
I wouldn't want to see the entire item recipe database released wholesale, even through a skill. I wouldn't have a problem with, say a single recipe with 3+ items required being released(PER CHARACTER) randomly via a command once crafters hit master level in a crafting skill, but I don't know if that would sate the people who are asking for this.
For plenty of others, including myself, there is appeal in the arcane and discovery-based nature of the current crafting system. Making this change would also eliminate the ONLY way indie crafters have to protect their recipes from duplication, which is keystone items. By making the recipe for those keystone items available via a list, it completely eliminates the possibility of an indie protecting their crafting recipes at all, which I don't like. It takes a fair amount of time, patience, and preparation to make a keystone item to protect one's recipes, so I think that should be something that's still possible to do.
I know that on an OOC level, some people hate that these crafts are difficult to duplicate, and often disappear with the player who created them, should they stop playing. But, this is an instance where what makes sense IC, and what some people want OOCly don't mesh. From an IC perspective, it makes sense to make your items proprietary in some way, so that it's something only you can provide. It's a competitive edge. Unfortunately, that -also- means that OOCly, your recipes likely won't be easily discovered by other players. I don't have a huge problem with that, personally. I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.
Perhaps a solution to this would be an on/off flag on new custom crafts when they're submitted. Basically, ask the submitter if they'd like their craft to be included in this craft list idea. If they do, great! There's one recipe added to the list that would display IG. But if they don't, that recipe will never display in the list. Then, default all prior custom crafts to have the flag off. This would slowly build up the list of displayable craft recipes without just being a huge dump of recipes that the creators didn't want to be that easy to discover.
Meh. What's the point of "adding" an item to the game if nobody else can ever make it when your PC is gone?
As for keystone items, shrug, make a player clan or be part of a clan if you want your stuff to be exclusive.
Yeah, it'd be nice to be able to keep other PCs from making your shit if they've never seen it before, but that's a flaw in the crafting system, and the benefits of opening up the crafting database, to me, outweigh the possibility that someone else might make your diamond-encrusted breastplate.
The only time I've ever wanted to keep an item proprietary is when it was supposed to be part of an exclusive group, and in that case, we have a player clan system. Does it need work? Yes, you should be able to actually make your own specific player clan. Does it still (sorta) work as is? Yes, it does.
I remember once reading an idea where if you did ">craft widget", the game might hint at what could be made with other ingredients.
Like it could say "you might be able to make something else out of a bone widget if you had a sandstone sprocket" or maybe "if you had more ingredients, you might be able to make a bone and sandstone thingamabob".
Quote from: Heade on November 15, 2018, 12:54:26 PM
I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.
If you discover the recipe IG. If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge. Don't do that.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 15, 2018, 01:08:59 PM
Quote from: Heade on November 15, 2018, 12:54:26 PM
I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.
If you discover the recipe IG. If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge. Don't do that.
Dude, there is literally nobody that is going to "find out IC" their list of 1300+ craftable items they've recorded over decades of grinding it out with crafter PCs. Especially when some of the items are like..."no, no...I know it's just a wooden club, but it has to be the THICK branch, not the LARGE branch...*WINK WINK*"
Quote from: Delirium on November 15, 2018, 12:59:22 PM
Meh. What's the point of "adding" an item to the game if nobody else can ever make it when your PC is gone?
As for keystone items, shrug, make a player clan or be part of a clan if you want your stuff to be exclusive.
Yeah, it'd be nice to be able to keep other PCs from making your shit if they've never seen it before, but that's a flaw in the crafting system, and the benefits of opening up the crafting database, to me, outweigh the possibility that someone else might make your diamond-encrusted breastplate.
The only time I've ever wanted to keep an item proprietary is when it was supposed to be part of an exclusive group, and in that case, we have a player clan system. Does it need work? Yes, you should be able to actually make your own specific player clan. Does it still (sorta) work as is? Yes, it does.
Yeah, I disagree. And, the point of adding items that other players/PCs can't easily duplicate is, quite simply, roleplay. When every crafter in the game can make the same things, it devalues ALL of them. There is literally nothing different, at that point, between crafter A and crafter B. So, if crafter A has a personality that rubs you the wrong way, there is no hesitation, no concern about eliminating them from the equation and simply going to crafter B for all the same things.
The current system allows for the continuation of plots, the survival more interesting character personalities, and a real differentiation between characters. That long-lived custom crafter who has been around a RL year or two? Yeah, they probably know several custom recipes that the new 1 month old Master crafter doesn't know. If you suddenly provide the entire craft list to all the players, nothing separates the usefulness of that old hand from that 1 month new crafter.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 15, 2018, 01:08:59 PM
Quote from: Heade on November 15, 2018, 12:54:26 PM
I, as a player, know any of my old recipes from past crafters, and thus I can keep those recipes alive on future crafters that I might make.
If you discover the recipe IG. If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge. Don't do that.
Well, not exactly. As people gain OOC knowledge of the gameworld, it allows someone to have a background for their character that coincides with, and thus makes sense with that OOC knowledge. For instance, if I OOCly know the terrain of Zalanthas very well, I may make a character that is well-travelled and has been to a lot of these places in their background. It's impossible to ensure that OOC knowledge never affects future PCs of players who have gained it. Otherwise, people would act like noobs forever, and constantly run out and die to scrabs or spiders on every new outdoor PC they ever made. And I only use it as much as I believe makes sense for a particular character. But it -does- happen. Remember, we're often playing characters who have lived for 20, 30, or even 40 years before we physically start running them around the gameworld. In that time, they've seen and done things.
As for applying this to item recipes, sure, they can discover them IG, or have been the apprentice to someone else who passed that knowledge along to them. But as things stand, to pretend that no players are utilizing recipes they discovered on past characters is silly. We all know that's not the case. No one intentionally fails to know what items go into making a basic arrow on subsequent characters once they OOCly know how to do it.
What I am saying is that if you the player mastercraft the diamond encrusted breastplate using Gaj plate, two diamonds, a strip of leather and, strangely, a quirri tail with one character, and circumstances are such that the recipe/item dies with the crafter.....you don't get to come back a year later with a different character and do that recipe.
It is more like learning that the PC Lord Valika has a secret elven lover with one character and using it with a subsequent character with no way for that second character to learn IG than it is knowing the general area of the Grey Forest.
I think you're going to have a hard time convincing people not to re-introduce things they spent time on, especially when a craftable item is like one of the only long-lasting impacts you can have on the game, as a player.
Further...what do you accomplish by enforcing this rule? What's the point?
Quote from: Brokkr on November 15, 2018, 01:54:12 PM
What I am saying is that if you the player mastercraft the diamond encrusted breastplate using Gaj plate, two diamonds, a strip of leather and, strangely, a quirri tail with one character, and circumstances are such that the recipe/item dies with the crafter.....you don't get to come back a year later with a different character and do that recipe.
It is more like learning that the PC Lord Valika has a secret elven lover with one character and using it with a subsequent character with no way for that second character to learn IG than it is knowing the general area of the Grey Forest.
And what I'm saying is that, if there is a particular way of hardening wood that I mastercrafted on a particular character, there is nothing to say that another NPC in the world didn't discover that same process, and pass it along to my new PC that I made a RL year later. It's a process IG that works. The nature of the crafting recipe system, and knowing them, is such that, while other players or PCs may not know recipes, they are, in fact, discoverable by both those PCs and the NPCs in the world. So if I OOCly know a recipe, it isn't a stretch to play a character who has apprenticed under someone who knew such a recipe, either. Sure, the knowledge might be rare, and that's good. But it doesn't have to be non-existent.
It isn't anywhere near the same as creating a character that knows another specific PC's secrets. We're not allowed to include knowledge or background interaction with other PCs without prior staff approval. We're allowed to submit backgrounds where we've interacted with NPCs or vNPCs in our background, and this is specifically akin to that.
If you customcraft something, and you're in a clan, it's probably safe to assume that other clan members would have been taught the recipe.
If you're unclanned, you can go out of your way to introduce the recipe to the general populace of the game, and get it into the ecosystem. If you do this, I don't think there would be a problem with you coming along a year later and making your item on another PC.
But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this? It makes zero sense.
Quote from: Nao on November 14, 2018, 06:59:16 PM
I think one of the problems here is that most items in the database aren't accessible to players.
Each heavy crater could be sent 5x random crafting recipes from the DB, with their character approval e-mail. I know that I, at least, keep a .txt file, with all the recipes I discover, and I'm positive others do, as well. It'll help to keep recipes from being completely lost, over time, with constantly new recipes being release, or "re-discovered", for as long as there are people playing heavy craft pcs.
Quote from: Delirium on November 15, 2018, 12:59:22 PM
Meh. What's the point of "adding" an item to the game if nobody else can ever make it when your PC is gone?
As for keystone items, shrug, make a player clan or be part of a clan if you want your stuff to be exclusive.
I think the issue, is that if you custom craft an item, as an independent, GMH people rip it off and start to push it as their own design. Or other independents. And that, in and of itself, would be fine, except that GMH people have hard coded protection, against being ripped off in the same manner, so the only protection you have, is making your recipe stupidly obscure, and not selling it to anyone, or whatever.
What is needed, is some kind of "for the lifetime of this pc" protection, that your recipe cannot be duplicated by anyone, so people feel less pressed, into making their recipes from items from every far flung corner, and obscure hole, the Known has to offer. I feel that, it is a bit disrespectful, to be ripping off other players time and effort, in such a manner.
You cannot expect people, not to try to being gamey about it, because sitting down to create some special memento for a group of friends, only to have someone else see it, analyze it, and sell five of them to every shop in the game, must be a really crappy feeling. Its one of the major reasons, I've continued to put off making a craft focused pc... because I would be pretty sore, when it inevitably happens.
"Make a player clan" is not an answer, and indeed, if it was, once that clan tanks, all those recipes would become inaccessible to anyone, worsening the problem of recipes being lost and going unused.
Tbh, "shrug" and "make a player clan", are pretty flippant responses, to a legitimate issue. Aren't you supposed to be an example, of proper posting etiquette?
Quote from: Brokkr on November 15, 2018, 01:08:59 PM
If you discover the recipe IG. If you are simply using your OOC knowledge, you are crossing the line between OOC and IC knowledge. Don't do that.
How would you even police this?
If I'm in my apartment and I type "craft X Y Z", and it returns some item I'd custom crafted a year prior, am I exploiting ooc knowledge and intentionally gathering mats for it, or did I just happen to have the materials necessary, to make the item? This is, other than analyze, how I figure out many, many recipes, by mashing components together and see what clicks.
How do you approach me about it, without it looking like some kind of witch hunt? And...
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2018, 02:02:55 PM
Further...what do you accomplish by enforcing this rule? What's the point?
I'd rather make recipes much easier to get, than have to police it.
Some folks may take staff perspective and use it to reflect on their own perspective, and how that translates into role play. Some people may become defensive because they may not like, feel it disadvantageous, or disagree with that perspective. Some will "meh".
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 02:20:45 PM
But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this? It makes zero sense.
I have to mention. When I played my last merchant, I did a "LOT" of recipie hunting. A process that required me to have 5 pieces of every weirdo object that is commonly, or uncommonly used for crafting. And I have found some surprisingly awesome items that were definitely someone elses MCs. Yet were so rare, everyone assumed I was the one to MC them.
My point is that if a PC discovered an obscure recipie, it is theoretically possible. It gets a little finicky when it was you yourself that MCed it a rl year ago.
Mayhaps there could be a rule of some kind about it?
You can rediscover MCs you made only after 1 rl year has passed and you need to have 5 days played per each ingridient to a maximum of 25 days
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 02:20:45 PM
If you customcraft something, and you're in a clan, it's probably safe to assume that other clan members would have been taught the recipe.
If you're unclanned, you can go out of your way to introduce the recipe to the general populace of the game, and get it into the ecosystem. If you do this, I don't think there would be a problem with you coming along a year later and making your item on another PC.
But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this? It makes zero sense.
It -does- make sense. Two people invented the light bulb and tried to patent it at almost the exact same time. The idea that, in all the known world, no one would ever come up with the same design is quite silly. Sure, other PCs might not, but they represent only a tiny fraction of the population of the world. So, to say that some other vNPC could never discover it, in my opinion, is far more odd than to assume they could not. And besides, it enriches the game world. So there is no negative effect, and only positive. I really don't see what the issue is, here. So, fine, I RP discovering it IG instead of writing it into my background, being taught by someone else who discovers it? The end result is the same. What's the difference, really? People use OOC knowledge to create and RP characters with more depth and world-knowledge than they were able to when they were a noob. This is an unalterable fact, and won't change by trying to die on the hill that is crafting recipes. They're one of the most insignificant uses of OOC knowledge that occurs in the game.
Quote from: Vex on November 15, 2018, 02:30:12 PM
What is needed, is some kind of "for the lifetime of this pc" protection
This wouldn't work. It would have the opposite effect, in fact. A sort of "highlander effect", where, for every custom crafter killed, more recipes would become available to the remaining crafters, encouraging OOCly to kill the very crafters who should ICly be useful and desireable to keep alive for those very same craft knowledges.
Quote from: Brokkr on November 15, 2018, 02:48:47 PM
I'd rather make recipes much easier to get, than have to police it.
There is nothing to police. It's absurd to even try to police item recipes vs. IC knowledge when so much other OOC knowledge has such a huge impact on people's play, and isn't even blinked at. Seriously, think about it. Every noob in the game ends up dying to a scrab or something, until they OOCly understand the game better, then suddenly, their PCs stop dying to stupid shit. What you're suggesting is that, on every subsequent character, such IG knowledge should strictly be forbidden and not be allowed to exist, which would cause the game to be an endless churn of dead noobs to scrabs. No one is doing that. No one is calling to police that. And that has far more impact on the game than someone being able to recreate recipes that they themselves submitted, enriching and adding content to the game, on subsequent characters. It is a net positive for people to reintroduce their own custom crafts back into the economy on subsequent characters, and continues to add unique flair and flavor to the game world. There is literally no drawback to it, yet you're acting like it should be policed more than the OOC knowledge of how magick works. That's absolutely ridiculous.
Quote from: Heade on November 15, 2018, 03:02:21 PM
This wouldn't work. It would have the opposite effect, in fact. A sort of "highlander effect", where, for every custom crafter killed, more recipes would become available to the remaining crafters, encouraging OOCly to kill the very crafters who should ICly be useful and desireable to keep alive for those very same craft knowledges.
You might be having an issue, with paranoia...
By virtue of the fact you can custom craft, it behooves me to let you continue living, to continue with the production of custom crafts, so when you do die, on your own, to various circumstances, there is that much more for me to pillage from, your still-cooling legacy.
The PK thread, especially, made me realize how petrified and paranoid people are, about everyone being out to kill them, for the most trivial of things. It does happen, yes, and I've even done some myself. It isn't so common, or so casual, that you really need to worry about a dozen elves, leaping from your closet, because you made a fancy waterskin that THEY ABSOLUTE MY MUST BOOTLEG IMMEDIATELY!
I feel like I play, an entirely different game, than some of you, sometimes.
There have been IG plots that have revolved around PC businesses, where items or recipes were attempted to be stolen. If, by killing a PC, their recipes are added to a database that other crafter PCs can access, that will happen. Whether manufactured through other IC reasons or not. The problem with such a skill or database access is that it crosses IC/OOC boundaries, where many people would say the item recipes and database itself is OOC, but if you give a skill that gives access to it, it suddenly becomes IC in a way. And if you add player protection of their recipes to that mix, that heavily blurs the line on whether or not killing them to have their item recipes added to that database would be an IC thing to do, or not, because despite it seeming very metagamey, it certainly affects your ability to obtain those recipes IC, and so, would be justified to some, IC, as being a legitimate reason to PK someone.
The new arm meme would be, I killed him for his: boots, noob coins, and/or crafting recipes.
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 02:20:45 PM
But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this? It makes zero sense.
I have to mention. When I played my last merchant, I did a "LOT" of recipie hunting. A process that required me to have 5 pieces of every weirdo object that is commonly, or uncommonly used for crafting. And I have found some surprisingly awesome items that were definitely someone elses MCs. Yet were so rare, everyone assumed I was the one to MC them.
My point is that if a PC discovered an obscure recipie, it is theoretically possible. It gets a little finicky when it was you yourself that MCed it a rl year ago.
I like that there are elusive things to be discoverable with PCs like this. You would lose that with releasing the recipe database, because suddenly everyone would know how to make the mekillot bone glass triplespear that some hermit PC MC'd years ago in Cenyr, and everyone would clamor for it. It makes a lot more sense if someone discovers it de novo through experimentation.
Quote from: Bogre on November 15, 2018, 03:53:52 PM
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 02:20:45 PM
But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this? It makes zero sense.
I have to mention. When I played my last merchant, I did a "LOT" of recipie hunting. A process that required me to have 5 pieces of every weirdo object that is commonly, or uncommonly used for crafting. And I have found some surprisingly awesome items that were definitely someone elses MCs. Yet were so rare, everyone assumed I was the one to MC them.
My point is that if a PC discovered an obscure recipie, it is theoretically possible. It gets a little finicky when it was you yourself that MCed it a rl year ago.
I like that there are elusive things to be discoverable with PCs like this. You would lose that with releasing the recipe database, because suddenly everyone would know how to make the mekillot bone glass triplespear that some hermit PC MC'd years ago in Cenyr, and everyone would clamor for it. It makes a lot more sense if someone discovers it de novo through experimentation.
Agreed. It also gives players who have contributed a lot to the game over the years some measure of acknowledgement to their contribution, by letting them OOCly have the knowledge of these various recipes that they may periodically reintroduce into the gameworld through subsequent PCs. I think it keeps the game fresh and varied when it comes to IG items that ebb and flow into and out of the game over time.
Quote from: Heade on November 15, 2018, 03:02:21 PM
It -does- make sense. Two people invented the light bulb and tried to patent it at almost the exact same time. The idea that, in all the known world, no one would ever come up with the same design is quite silly. Sure, other PCs might not, but they represent only a tiny fraction of the population of the world. So, to say that some other vNPC could never discover it, in my opinion, is far more odd than to assume they could not. And besides, it enriches the game world. So there is no negative effect, and only positive. I really don't see what the issue is, here. So, fine, I RP discovering it IG instead of writing it into my background, being taught by someone else who discovers it? The end result is the same. What's the difference, really? People use OOC knowledge to create and RP characters with more depth and world-knowledge than they were able to when they were a noob. This is an unalterable fact, and won't change by trying to die on the hill that is crafting recipes. They're one of the most insignificant uses of OOC knowledge that occurs in the game.
You're comparing apples and oranges. We aren't inventing technologies here, we're making bone swords and canvas backpacks using various window dressings.
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 04:37:34 PM
Quote from: Heade on November 15, 2018, 03:02:21 PM
It -does- make sense. Two people invented the light bulb and tried to patent it at almost the exact same time. The idea that, in all the known world, no one would ever come up with the same design is quite silly. Sure, other PCs might not, but they represent only a tiny fraction of the population of the world. So, to say that some other vNPC could never discover it, in my opinion, is far more odd than to assume they could not. And besides, it enriches the game world. So there is no negative effect, and only positive. I really don't see what the issue is, here. So, fine, I RP discovering it IG instead of writing it into my background, being taught by someone else who discovers it? The end result is the same. What's the difference, really? People use OOC knowledge to create and RP characters with more depth and world-knowledge than they were able to when they were a noob. This is an unalterable fact, and won't change by trying to die on the hill that is crafting recipes. They're one of the most insignificant uses of OOC knowledge that occurs in the game.
You're comparing apples and oranges. We aren't inventing technologies here, we're making bone swords and canvas backpacks using various window dressings.
Which makes it even MORE likely that someone else in the millions of people in the world would also make a similar bone sword or backpack,
not less. The less complex something is, the more likely the idea is to be duplicated completely at random by someone.
So, my example stands. If two people can end up designing something as technologically complex as a lightbulb at the same time, in separate parts of the world, surely two people in separate parts of the world can end up designing the same helmet, or process for hardening wood. There are tons of RL examples of this. Animal glue, for instance, was something used in vastly different parts of the world, quite simply, because it
worked.
Through trial an error, people(including PCs, NPCs, and vNPCs) are sure to find those things that work, over time. This is, currently, represented through players obtaining OOC knowledge of recipes and using those recipes on various PCs that they portray. It's
happening. And there isn't anything wrong with it. There is only a positive that occurs in game out of it. You can't stop it without making the entire crafting system dull, uninspired, and uninteresting by just releasing the entire database to players, so I don't see what the problem is, honestly. It's something beyond staff control that impacts the game in a positive, GOOD way. So why not leave it alone?
Heade. All of these facts and matters aside. Do you think there should be mechanisms in place that would prevent a player from custom crafting a bunch of awesome sauce MCs and profiting from his ingenuity/rarity/novelty, but eventually dying. Then a year later, creating another PC who isnt even capable of MCing, but gaining a sudden access to the ingenuity/rarity/novelty of a long past PC. With recipies so complicated, that nobody else in the entire Known ever learned how to make them except this newly created PC?
Do you find that situation acceptable?
I would still like to see a (pawn?) shop in game that sells only random, craftable items in some limited fashion. Crafters could buy the items and analyze them. This would
- re-introduce forgotten items into the game
- give crafters an IC way to discover recipes
- assuming there is a huge number of items in the database, preserve some of the secrecy of recipes. Only the PC who buys the item gets to know the recipe and they decide if they want to pass it on to anyone else.
- come at a cost. The crafter needs to spend money on the item, and risk that it's a waste of money since it's made out of items he can't obtain, or aren't worth the effort.
Quote from: Vex on November 15, 2018, 02:30:12 PM
Each heavy crater could be sent 5x random crafting recipes from the DB, with their character approval e-mail. I know that I, at least, keep a .txt file, with all the recipes I discover, and I'm positive others do, as well. It'll help to keep recipes from being completely lost, over time, with constantly new recipes being release, or "re-discovered", for as long as there are people playing heavy craft pcs.
I also like this idea. It could be turned into a monthly thing instead, so nobody suicides a bunch of mercantile characters just to collect recipes ;)
Quote from: Nao on November 15, 2018, 05:15:27 PM
I would still like to see a (pawn?) shop in game that sells only random, craftable items in some limited fashion. Crafters could buy the items and analyze them. This would
This is my favorite solution to the problem.
It's also just a solid idea entirely outside the realm of fixing a problem.
Shops get pretty dull after you've been to them a few dozen times with the same PC. I bet a shop like this would be the most frequented place in the known after taverns.
Quote from: Narf on November 15, 2018, 05:33:19 PM
Quote from: Nao on November 15, 2018, 05:15:27 PM
I would still like to see a (pawn?) shop in game that sells only random, craftable items in some limited fashion. Crafters could buy the items and analyze them. This would
This is my favorite solution to the problem.
It's also just a solid idea entirely outside the realm of fixing a problem.
Shops get pretty dull after you've been to them a few dozen times with the same PC. I bet a shop like this would be the most frequented place in the known after taverns.
Yeah I love the idea too.
Like two random items generated in a stall on reset.
Could even be existing stalls in every region. The ones that sell assorted things.
They remain until someone buys them and change on reset.
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 05:09:39 PM
Heade. All of these facts and matters aside. Do you think there should be mechanisms in place that would prevent a player from custom crafting a bunch of awesome sauce MCs and profiting from his ingenuity/rarity/novelty, but eventually dying. Then a year later, creating another PC who isnt even capable of MCing, but gaining a sudden access to the ingenuity/rarity/novelty of a long past PC. With recipies so complicated, that nobody else in the entire Known ever learned how to make them except this newly created PC?
Do you find that situation acceptable?
Well, first off, this is making a lot of assumptions. The primary one being that just because few or no other PCs have made the item, that none of the millions of inhabitants of the world have. The PC population is, at best, 40-50 PCs logged on. This doesn't even represent a fraction of the population of the world. So, I think it's safe to assume that somewhere, SOMEONE may know these recipes, even if no PCs do. And so, no, I don't think it's a problem that those someone's might be the mentor of the future PC of the player who submitted the MC to begin with. I think that is an inherent benefit to being a long-time member of the community that has contributed a lot of item recipes to the world.
There are plenty of other benefits that come with being a long-time member of the community, between Karma, and simple knowledge of the game world that allows you to play longer-lived PCs. I don't see any reason why this would need to be any different, especially considering that these items being reintroduced to the economy by the players who originally created them does nothing but add spice and variety to the game world.
Does that give a player who has played many crafters a game knowledge advantage over someone who has not? Sure. But that's no different than any other class. That same game knowledge advantage exists across the spectrum of character classes and roles.
This "prior experience" advantage of playing custom crafters also extends to every other
player who plays one, so it's not any sort of
unfair advantage. It rewards players who have spent a lot of time playing crafters and submitting custom content into the game world. ALL of the players who do that. Not just one, or a select few. And the reward isn't dependent on the subjective and sometimes inconsistent judging of a third party, as karma is. It's automatic so long as the person puts the effort in to create these recipes and subsequently make characters that could ICly discover and utilize them. In that way, it is one of the most fair, unbiased, and objectively positive elements of the game that can serve to carve a unique niche for a character in the game world.
EDIT: I mean, seriously, for anyone who doesn't believe that being a long-time, experienced player has any bearing on IG success, just look at the requirements for forming a player clan. It takes something like a quarter of a million sid, and 2 RL years to reach the level of minor merchant house, assuming perfectly efficient timing in meeting all IC requirements, which is a pipe dream with players that have inconsistent playtimes but are important to your advancement, there. No new player is going to meet those requirements. It's extremely difficult for older, knowledgeable, and established players to do so, to the point of almost never successfully happening. The entire system of armageddon, from karma, to secret undocumented magic mechanics, to player clans is designed to reward long-time players who keep coming back to the game over multiple PCs.
Well. Then aside all the talk of vnpcs, and whatever else. I will have to simply disagree. I personally, do not believe that a newly created character should so immensely benefit from major work of another character that the same player ran. Be that custom crafts that no other player knows, buried items of previous PC that a new PC could find, and so on.
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 06:09:18 PM
Well. Then aside all the talk of vnpcs, and whatever else. I will have to simply disagree. I personally, do not believe that a newly created character should so immensely benefit from major work of another character that the same player ran. Be that custom crafts that no other player knows, buried items of previous PC that a new PC could find, and so on.
I think there is a big difference between being able to create an item recipe, which has been referenced by staff as being rather low-tech and simple to begin with, and going back to basically loot the body/stash of your previous, dead PC.
And you can't push the talk of the vNPC world aside. When there are
ten thousand times as many vNPCs as active PCs, that isn't just some insignificant little thing that can simply be ignored in a discussion concerning the validity of RP.
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 06:09:18 PM
Well. Then aside all the talk of vnpcs, and whatever else. I will have to simply disagree. I personally, do not believe that a newly created character should so immensely benefit from major work of another character that the same player ran. Be that custom crafts that no other player knows, buried items of previous PC that a new PC could find, and so on.
Who caaaares who is crafting what?
I fucking love seeing people craft my old mastercrafts. I LOVE IT. I show everyone I can every time I have the appropriate skill, because people are running around with -my- shit, and that's fucking cool as fuck.
What kind of jealous asshole is seriously sitting there stewing because some SCRUB IS CRAFTING MY SPEAR REEEEEE?
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2018, 06:16:28 PM
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 06:09:18 PM
Well. Then aside all the talk of vnpcs, and whatever else. I will have to simply disagree. I personally, do not believe that a newly created character should so immensely benefit from major work of another character that the same player ran. Be that custom crafts that no other player knows, buried items of previous PC that a new PC could find, and so on.
Who caaaares who is crafting what?
I fucking love seeing people craft my old mastercrafts. I LOVE IT. I show everyone I can every time I have the appropriate skill, because people are running around with -my- shit, and that's fucking cool as fuck.
What kind of jealous asshole is seriously sitting there stewing because some SCRUB IS CRAFTING MY SPEAR REEEEEE?
That's the topic of the conversation though. It's not about a PC crafting recipies he once MCed that are well known and crafted by many. It's about the recipies that are unknown and only the newly made PC of that same player gets to 'learn' them, using a vnpc coveat.
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 02:20:45 PM
If you're unclanned, you can go out of your way to introduce the recipe to the general populace of the game, and get it into the ecosystem. If you do this, I don't think there would be a problem with you coming along a year later and making your item on another PC.
But if you don't do this, there's no way that your PC would know about this particular item - afterall, all the other hundreds of PCs don't - so why would your PC suddenly know this? It makes zero sense.
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 06:21:18 PM
It's not about a PC crafting recipies he once MCed that are well known and crafted by many. It's about the recipies that are unknown and only the newly made PC of that same player gets to 'learn' them, using a vnpc coveat.
Yup, basically. Unknown to other PCs doesn't equal unknown in all the world, when PCs are outnumbered by vNPCs 10,000:1.
If a PC discovers one of my recipes IG, and that player subsequently uses the recipe on multiple future PCs, more power to them. It's the beauty of the current crafting system, and part of the advantage being a long-time player confers, along with so many others that people don't seem to be arguing against.
If you want to craft your own MCs on future PCs, the right thing to do would be to mass produce enough of them that they get out into the game's ecosystem and in sufficient numbers that your future PC has a chance of finding one and 'analyze'-ing it. I'm finished talking about that.
The random items in a shop thing is a neat idea, but in practice a lot harder to implement because there's all kinds of items in the database that have no business being in the game (or readily available) and some of them are supposed to be unique, some of them are old and poorly written, some of them are exceptionally rare for some reason, some of them are magick, some of them are retconned, some are metal, and so on.
In a perfect world we'd have a really robust object database that has enough flags that we could query against it and get an acceptable list of items to pull from, but unfortunately we don't. It would end up being that we had to create a list of objects manually and maintain that in the shop itself.
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 07:15:21 PM
If you want to craft your own MCs on future PCs, the right thing to do would be to mass produce enough of them that they get out into the game's ecosystem and in sufficient numbers that your future PC has a chance of finding one and 'analyze'-ing it. I'm finished talking about that.
What if, through play, I discover someone else's MC recipes? How is that different from discovering my own? I don't agree, and
people are using recipe knowledge across multiple characters constantly, MC or otherwise, whether anyone likes it or not. It is entirely too subjective to say what MC would be hard to figure out and which ones are appropriate for ANY PC to use. It's something every crafter does. No one completely "rediscovers" the crafting mechanics on every subsequent character. If you want to lose players, start punishing people for using similar item recipes across multiple characters.
No one thinks twice about rangers who know where the water is, or where to forage for the best tubers.
I don't know that I find knowing which recipes are the best to skill up on is any more meta than mastercrafting something with 5 obscure ingredients that don't show up at all in the description.
A lot of shit is in the game which never should have been. How was I supposed to guess this granite Warhammer needed a feather and blue dye? I wasn't. Someone did it so they could maintain a stranglehold on that MC item forever, in perpetuity, across all their characters.
That horse is loose, 10 miles down the road, and in the neighbor's garden and we're discussing how to lock the barn door.
Blue feather is nothing. Its more fun to mastercraft an item and then use that item as a components for other mastercrafts :).
A method one can regenerate karma faster!!!
They login onto another builderesque account with limited access to item database. Their job is to inspect the item, flag it appropriately and send it to the next filtration system. Until finally a staffer checks through coded stats stuff.
Every 1000 items catalogued=one karma regenned.
Quote from: Dar on November 15, 2018, 07:42:14 PM
Blue feather is nothing. Its more fun to mastercraft an item and then use that item as a component for other mastercrafts :).
Yeah, this is how the pros protect their recipes. Code-proof that shit.
"Analyze my final product all you want, broski."
A few seconds pass.
"What is a bobberdoodle, and where do I get one?"
"That's the real question, isn't it?"
After seeing slipknife, cutpurse and rogue... not sure if it would be too OP if grebber branched skinning (even at journeyman level) from advanced forage.
I think it lost the ability to forage for food? It also has hunt, but no ability to skin what it finds, the need to grind forage to get skinning would keep hunter with the additional starting option of archery rather attractive, unlike thief vs cut-purse.
Quote from: Nao on November 15, 2018, 05:15:27 PM
I would still like to see a (pawn?) shop in game that sells only random, craftable items in some limited fashion. Crafters could buy the items and analyze them. This would
- re-introduce forgotten items into the game
- give crafters an IC way to discover recipes
- assuming there is a huge number of items in the database, preserve some of the secrecy of recipes. Only the PC who buys the item gets to know the recipe and they decide if they want to pass it on to anyone else.
- come at a cost. The crafter needs to spend money on the item, and risk that it's a waste of money since it's made out of items he can't obtain, or aren't worth the effort.
I like this a lot.
I swear I will volunteer to mindlessly sit and excel sheet the item database if we can somehow implement this pawn shop idea. I think many players would. Recruit us, split the work. It's such a great solution.
Quote from: seidhr on November 15, 2018, 07:15:21 PM
The random items in a shop thing is a neat idea, but in practice a lot harder to implement because there's all kinds of items in the database that have no business being in the game (or readily available) and some of them are supposed to be unique, some of them are old and poorly written, some of them are exceptionally rare for some reason, some of them are magick, some of them are retconned, some are metal, and so on.
Dude, give new staff some simple guidelines and make 'em pore through the object database as a
hazing ritual learning exercise.
Add a tag showing it was reviewed in 2018 and by who. [reviewed-2018] [reviewer-{{storyteller}}]
If it's obviously fine for general use, add a tag showing that. [reviewed-okay]
If it clearly shouldn't be in game at all, add: [reviewed-delete]
Don't even worry about the 45% of stuff that's in a gray area.
Stuff tagged [reviewed-okay], eventually maybe 40% of the object database, can be added to the Pawn Shop or whatever.
Eventually someone will jump on this obsessively and review 900 items over a weekend. And every [craftable] item we recover into circulation is a chunk of past staff and player effort that we've recouped at relatively low cost.
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on November 16, 2018, 01:23:11 PM
I swear I will volunteer to mindlessly sit and excel sheet the item database if we can somehow implement this pawn shop idea. I think many players would. Recruit us, split the work. It's such a great solution.
It wouldn't even necessarily take that much work.
If the pawn shop were to generate say 20 items every week, you'd just need someone to review the 20 it randomly selected and flag them "appropriate, not appropriate."
Once it got the "not appropriate" flag it wouldn't show up again and you'd gradually develop a list of items you could cycle through without oversight.
I'm not sure how large that portion of inappropriate items in the database is. But you could probably do some automated pre-selection. Drop items that have the wrong flags (metal, maybe those that need certain magickal crafting skills) or by only looking at those that were created after a certain date, if that data is available.
Edit: Or... start with a small, manually maintained list and add to that whenever someone has some free time. Even just 20 items to begin with would add content and give crafters something new to chase after.
Quote from: Narf on November 16, 2018, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on November 16, 2018, 01:23:11 PM
I swear I will volunteer to mindlessly sit and excel sheet the item database if we can somehow implement this pawn shop idea. I think many players would. Recruit us, split the work. It's such a great solution.
It wouldn't even necessarily take that much work.
If the pawn shop were to generate say 20 items every week, you'd just need someone to review the 20 it randomly selected and flag them "appropriate, not appropriate."
Once it got the "not appropriate" flag it wouldn't show up again and you'd gradually develop a list of items you could cycle through without oversight.
The extra magickal/metal items popping into the game for the brief period of time before items are reviewed is probably a big part of the reason they wouldn't do it in this way. Reboots aren't always at the same time/day either, and sometimes occur at random due to a crash. So, this would cause items to be introduced to the game that staff really, really doesn't want floating around the game.
Quote from: Nao on November 15, 2018, 05:15:27 PM
I would still like to see a (pawn?) shop in game that sells only random, craftable items in some limited fashion. Crafters could buy the items and analyze them. This would
- re-introduce forgotten items into the game
- give crafters an IC way to discover recipes
- assuming there is a huge number of items in the database, preserve some of the secrecy of recipes. Only the PC who buys the item gets to know the recipe and they decide if they want to pass it on to anyone else.
- come at a cost. The crafter needs to spend money on the item, and risk that it's a waste of money since it's made out of items he can't obtain, or aren't worth the effort.
Brilliant idea.
I really want to see this realized, I can't imagine how many brilliant things people have written up over the years. It'd be like slowly picking through a time capsule or a long lost tomb filled with treasure. I truly hope it's considered and a sensible way to execute it is determined. Fingers crossed
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on November 16, 2018, 04:15:20 PM
I really want to see this realized, I can't imagine how many brilliant things people have written up over the years. It'd be like slowly picking through a time capsule or a long lost tomb filled with treasure. I truly hope it's considered and a sensible way to execute it is determined. Fingers crossed
An alternative would be to add some of these long-lost items to the "forage artifact" command, in locations where such artifacts may be foraged. Maybe with a very low chance of discovery, depending on the item type. Perhaps resulting in a damaged/tattered version of the item in the case of clothing/armor. I think I'd rather see this than a store that just magically stocked them, because it would give more utility to foraging artifacts than just....what artifacts are normally foraged for. And it would require PCs to actively work to discover some of these long-lost items. It'd encourage more sorts of archeological/exploring expeditions as well, to find good places to find certain things.
There are places a person can get to where you could reasonably forage artifact for some long-lost sword or neckband, that doesn't actually happen because it hasn't been coded in yet. I was a bit surprised to find that the area I have in mind, you can't actually find stuff like this yet.
To prevent the market and peoples' hands being flooded with them, you'd have to make these things pretty darn hard to find, even at high forage. It would make outdoor foragers more valuable, as they seem to have boosts for outdoor foraging compared to their partner city guilds at the same level.
If you okayed a couple hundred artifacts over the course of two or three months this way, or even one month, that would be an endless source of fascination and discovery for me, personally, even after I've learned all the artifacts you can dig up.
Midden heaps in cities too; for the city guilds who have forage. But these would have even rougher forage requirements to find random treasures, as you're searching in a much safer place in a spot more people (vnpcs) have already looked. I wouldn't mind if it were impossible for novice or apprentice city guilders to find a sword in a midden heap. But an advanced/master forager who is a fence or miscreant or something could search for a RL day and find two or three items on average, taking breaks at night. Most of these wouldn't be a valuable-looking sword, obviously; maybe an agate-studded wristband and an amber-pommeled dagger and the good one was a chitin jerkin. It seems a little unfair but you have to think long-term, like what if someone did this for a living? Shouldn't get rich off midden heaps. and the reason why that jewel cave inside the witch's quarter was sealed off, as its presence was too gamey, a place for looking for gems that was too safe to stay open.
I don't think we need another way to make money in the game economy, we need more things to spend money on.
Quote from: Nao on November 17, 2018, 09:21:07 AM
Quote from: Heade on November 16, 2018, 06:03:13 PM
An alternative would be to add some of these long-lost items to the "forage artifact" command, in locations where such artifacts may be foraged. Maybe with a very low chance of discovery, depending on the item type. Perhaps resulting in a damaged/tattered version of the item in the case of clothing/armor. I think I'd rather see this than a store that just magically stocked them, because it would give more utility to foraging artifacts than just....what artifacts are normally foraged for. And it would require PCs to actively work to discover some of these long-lost items. It'd encourage more sorts of archeological/exploring expeditions as well, to find good places to find certain things.
I don't think we need another way to make money in the game economy, we need more things to spend money on.
Well, there is a rather simple fix for that. Make any of the items from the database that are discovered via this command have a flag similar to the non-removeable "tattered" flag, that set's the coded value of the item to 1 coin. So people couldn't just sell the items to NPCs to generate coins. They'd have to actively seek out PCs who are looking to learn recipes, or have old items in a collection or something for them to have any value.
A less simple, but still very cool addition might be to have the flag also cause the item to disentigrate and fall apart in your hands when you analyze it. So each item could only be analyzed once.
Stealth/hunting optimized for wilderness would be neat for Wastelander.