Armageddon General Discussion Board

Hi, I posted about this on the Drovians thread but it was a bit of a tangent, so I'm making my own thread.

Let's talk about the bahamet in the room: karma reviews. It's always been a bit of a mild taboo in the Arm community to talk about wanting karma, because the orthodox view is that karma isn't very important and shouldn't be anyone's main goal. And honestly, that's probably correct on both counts. Karma isn't the point of the game, and it's definitely unhealthy to put too much emphasis on it. But I think it's important to remember that it's natural to want karma, whether it's for the new and exciting roles that open up, or just for the recognition and the symbol of trust from staff. And I think it's particularly natural for a new player to want karma.

As I said in the other thread, my understanding of why the karma scale was shrunk from 8 to 3 was so that those high-end roles wouldn't seem so unattainable anymore. I remember being new and seeing that psionicists were 8 karma, and thinking I'd never in my life get the opportunity to play one. It seemed like the kind of thing that would take a decade or more to earn, and what new player knows they're going to be playing in a decade? What new player can feel confident that the game will still be around (and populated) for a decade? So I totally agreed with the decision to make the karma scale a lot less daunting.

But is it truly less daunting, really? There may only be three rungs on the ladder now, but many of us established players are sitting pretty on rungs 2 and 3 while new players can't even ask to step onto the first one. So, even though at first glance the 3 karma scale looks a lot more manageable for new players, they soon learn that it's more insurmountable than ever. And it's a theme I've noticed with these new players. They feel disheartened, they feel discouraged, they feel unappreciated. They feel like this moratorium favors those of us who have been playing a long time and punishes people who just started and have absolutely no idea when they'll be allowed to even request to be trusted to play so much as a master chef without personally beseeching staff for it.

It's starting to worry me how much I see this complaint. And while it may be tempting for those of us with karma to lecture the newer players about how karma isn't a big deal, etc., the truth is that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the new players are "right" or "wrong" to be upset about not being allowed to ask for karma. What matters is that it's an easily fixable problem that is causing newbies to want to give up. It's a lot easier for us mid to high level karma players to say things like "karma doesn't matter." There is no doubt in my mind that it feels shitty to be denied the opportunity to even ask for your longevity point while the rest of us peer down from our 2 and 3 karma accounts that predate the moratorium and claim that these noobs shouldn't care about karma because we don't. Let the newbies figure out whether karma does or doesn't matter on their own, after they're able to earn some.

So, here's the bottom line and the tl;dr. I propose that karma reviews should be opened for zero karma players only, until the restriction is lifted. This serves a dual purpose of letting newbies know that hey, staff do appreciate them, as well as reducing staff workload when the reviews are finally fully opened and the floodgates burst.

This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.

I'm a veteran player who rarely bothers with karma roles. 0 karma roles are the most fun for me. I don't often find magick or half-giants or muls very interesting.

However, it's important to have empathy, the ability to understand another person's feelings.

I can easily see why a new player would feel discouraged and repelled by a complete inability to gain Karma, especially when the system has been closed for over a year.

Karma is advertised as a measure of staff trust, as a reward for good roleplay, as the gateway to unusual character roles that might even be the reason a person has decided to try Armageddon in the first place, and it appears to them that there's no hope for getting it.

The problem with this is that new players are the lifeblood of a MUD. We absolutely need to retain them. The new players we get today may turn into the awesome, veteran, engaging roleplayers of years to come. It would be a great loss to lose future stars of the game to something as simple as karma inaccessibility.

There may be good reasons for closing karma reviews and leaving them closed. However, I feel the potential discouragement and loss of new players is so damaging to the long-term health of the game that re-opening karma reviews should become a priority.

If it's the only solution possible at this time, sleepyhead's idea of re-opening reviews for new players is a good one and should be carefully considered.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 02, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.

... you, uh, okay there?

Quote from: Lizzie on June 02, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.

You understand wrong. Everyone starts out at 0 karma, this would open up a chance for them to get to 1, not 2. And afaik you cannot put in a karma review on a month-old account anyway - you need to have been playing for at least a year (or half a year? I can’t remember and I am on my phone, so it’s a bit of a pain to look up). There is also a 2 karma whiran option (NOT the touches, which is 1 karma). It may not be the class you want, but there is a whiran option you can play, in addition to the touched.

I hav also noticed several new players that are frustrated with the blocked karma reviews, and think this would be a great compromise. Karma reviews from 0 karma players (I am not one of them, so no hidden agenda to have them opened) probably the least work when it comes to karma reviews. Most players that have been around long enough should be able to fulfill the longevity criterium, so the decision to bump them to 1 karma, or not, could be as easy as looking at that single criterion.

Lizzie, I commiserate with your feelings about your karma level. I've actually complained about it on the GDB many times, probably shooting myself in the foot in the process by making myself look bratty as hell. I too have had many options taken away. Few things would please me more than for all karma reviews to be opened so that I would finally be able to advocate for my 3rd point. That'd be my first choice. Just open them for everybody.

But if that's not an option right now, and it seems like it's not, I don't see why our own feelings of jealousy or possessiveness should be a good justification for maintaining a policy that is visibly driving new players away. I hope you'll pardon me if I say that it seems like a selfish way to look at it. A newbie being awarded their longevity point isn't going to take away any more of our 2 karma options, and it might keep that player from quitting in frustration. How is that not worth it?

And no, new players don't get one karma right out of the box. They start with zero.

Large Hero, you made some great points. It's all about looking at it from the new players' perspective. Thank you.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 02, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
This is where Ms. Possessiveness rears her ugly head. I vote no for this.

It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender. And just as soon as I did, they changed the karma system, and now I no longer qualify. In fact, I can't even play a whiran without special apping, whereas prior to the change, I had whira karma.

I'm can't get very enthusiastic about some 1-month-played player getting a bump to the same 2 that I'm now stuck with, especially if they can ask for a bump and I can't.

Also, so far as I know, everyone starts with 1 point out of the 3.

This is the wrong atmosphere to be aiming for, anyway. They can't play cool things because that would diminish your sense of accomplishment?

It took me close to three years to hit the magic number 5, and then I just stopped asking for karma because everything was available to me. I'd have probably gone a different route if I knew about the incoming karma change, and was consequently a little miffed when that was no longer the case. I understand the frustration you're feeling!

You put a good amount of time into it and now that's been fucked, but I disagree with the sentiment of new players needing to carry a burden so you feel -less- fucked.

Edit: Fucking phones.

Since part of karma is longevity, what if you just automatically got 1 karma as soon as you played an 8-day character or something?

I used to think that was what longevity meant, because that's what it sounds like it means, but I think it is actually how long you've been playing the game (regularly).

It probably could be awarded automatically, but I kind of like that it requires personal attention. It makes people feel more appreciated.

I think this is a good idea if the new account has been around the set longevity period (I don't remember if there was one for that). The longevity point should be available if someone is playing and having fun.

Otherwise, wasn't there a process for regenerating CGP that even 0 karma accounts had access to? I thought that we all had three special applications every 30 days that we could use. I may be a bit confused about it (I don't 100% understand it) , but I think I remember putting one in at one point and the request tool reflecting it somehow. If so, a 0 karma account can still app for skill bumps and roles higher than where they are at, it just takes a bit longer to be able to play that character if it gets approved and you can STILL play another character while you wait. I know it is a bit of a merry go round, but the option is there.

WithSprinkles, there used to be 3 special apps a year, but now you only get 2. I think they are still required to be the same 30 days apart. It's a fair point that newbies can special app extended subguilds and touched every now and then.

However, from talking to these new players, I think the main issue is not so much what they do and don't get to play as it is feeling that they're not "trusted" or "recognized." It's not so much that they can only play one warrior/outdoorsman every six months that is bugging them; it's their perception that staff doesn't think they're actually trustworthy enough to handle an outdoorsman without it being this rare, specially staff-granted thing. Beyond that, they can't even ask to be allowed that trust. They just have to be randomly noticed, and if they're not, they feel shitty.

I also think the opening of the beta guilds to 1+ karma players has something to do with the mounting frustration among new 0 karma players, because you can't special app for those. It's not the message staff is intending to send, but new players are hearing, "We don't trust you enough to to try these guilds, and we aren't allowing you the opportunity to earn that trust."

I'm not saying that their feelings are justified, but I understand why they feel that way and I think we're unnecessarily creating an environment that encourages that feeling.

New players with 0 karma can special app for 1 karma roles. If they get that longevity point, they don't have to special app 1 karma roles anymore and can special app 2 karma roles. They are missing out on additional options that simply aren't available while they're stuck at 0 karma.

Yes. And the truth is that many of these players aren't that new anymore. Karma reviews have been closed since February 2017--15 months ago--so we have not only accounts who were created since then, but also accounts that were created a few months before that, who have never had the chance to even submit a karma review. It's about time that these players, some of whom have been playing for well over a year and some well on their way to two years, had the opportunity to just ask for a karma point.

A year or two may seem like nothing to a vet who has been playing for 20 years, but to a new player, it's a long time.

I think everybody should get 1 karma as soon as they hit 30 days played cumulative.

I understand the karma system is necessary for screening abusers but its lampoonably pretentious in its current form.   But I'm a filthy liberal and believe in the goodness of personkind.

What exactly are we afraid of here?  Protecting a karma monopoly means you're taking for granted the people you play with. It's wrong.

Then again.... It may be a brilliant marketing ploy for all I know.  One does love something unattainable

PS Limit how many psionists and sorcs are running around somehow? Absolutely. Taking a decade to reach 8 karma is beyond the pale.  I could spit my beer on somebody it's so laughably stupid. 

I thought everyone started out able to app desert elf and one or two rukkian/vivaduan options. Since I've been corrected on that, I'm fine with new players being able to automatically bump up to 1 karma after a certain amount of time played (cumulatively regardless of how many characters they've played during that time period).

I still am against them being able to request a karma review, until we are ALL allowed to request a karma review.

It is likely when karma reviews are allowed again that the opening up will be tiered by karma level, simply for workload considerations.  It is unlikely we will allow karma reviews before the spendable karma system is operational.

I thought it was recently fixed, no? If not, at risk of sounding pushy to staff, let's focus on ironing out those kinks and get 0 karma players their chance to get their reviews. I hope we are not still waiting for the final release of the new guild system. The karma moratorium was not meant to last more than a few weeks according to the original post.

I know I sound bitchy and demanding -- I know staff are doing a lot of amazing things and no problem is easily fixed -- but I'm saddened by hearing about new players considering leaving due to this, and I think we can go a long way towards retaining these people just with this simple change.

Roughly half of us have had options removed by the karma re-balancing, myself included.

It felt bad, but I guess it's only temporary. I see no point allowing 0 karma players to special app. We should all be allowed, or none of us should.

I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com

You can use riposte without actually having the skill. Having it or not has no bearing on a player's karma status.

Special apps are also not restricted to players with karma. If you like, you can special app for one-karma guilds and subguilds as a new player; many players do.

If you see behavior by other players that you believe is sub-par roleplaying, the thing to do is file a player complaint and let staff investigate.

The first karma point is traditionally awarded for longevity, and is evaluated on both cumulative playtime as well as account age. Playtime is measured in days played, both on a single character and across all characters. There's currently no official threshold, but for accounts below 10 days cumulative playtime, I would suggest playing more roles before expecting karma.

Quote from: stoicreader on June 02, 2018, 10:37:04 PM
I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com

Unfortunately, leaving will not be the catalyst for change. If you want change, be a voice, offer constructive criticism, and keep at it. The fight for karma has been an ongoing battle for many years and it will continue to be so as long as it is remains an unbalanced economic structure which has created huge inequalities in the playerbase. It rewards some, neglects others and your growth is dependent on Staff decisions.

New System:

After 1 month, all players get one karma.

After one more month, all players get another karma. This continues with a cap of 3 total for each player for each month. Karma expenditure will drop the karma down to whatever the current level would be. Staff has a cap on how many non-mundanes of each type can be in the game, I dunno if this is really a good thing, as a gemmed witch I would have killed to have more witches to talk to.

Code will be in place if staff have determined that someone can't be trusted with a certain karma cap.

You know, like in the old days, before I started playing. Everyone was playing Shadowwalkers or some junk. I really miss a particular type of witch I used to be able to play, and it was actually not that useful to go on mass killings with, so I wasn't really sure it should have been high karma.

Man, but you guys sure miss the other witches. I guess I do too, even though I wasn't 2 karma long enough to do much with them.

I think this is a good idea and I think that if staff wanted to bottleneck a request for workload, they should look at special applications and just easily reducing them to one a year.

Karma accumulation should be automatic on days played.  If there are concerns about abuse or poor RP staff hand out a karma cap for a period of time, like they might a ban.

I haven't seen an argument if favour of the current karma system that doesn't reduce to self aggrandizement or protectionism.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 02, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender.

Does your steak taste better because poor people can't afford it, too?

Personally I think we should just make the Extended Subguilds the new Regular Subguilds, whether immediately or when the new Classes go in to general release. They really are just a straight upgrade and I don't even consider taking an old mundane subguild anymore. They're the most blatant example of karma conferring advantage. I mean, you could say Magick and stuff do that too, but I think there's more Goodies locked away behind the (Mundane) Extended Subguilds. Ranger/Rogues played ruthlessly scare the hell out of me way more than oldskool Sorcerers, nevermind our current foes. And being able to Mastercraft is a real treat for those dedicated to it.

I'd also suggest not trying to play Armageddon as a karma-accruing game. You'll have more fun if you play characters you enjoy and worry less about the shallow code. As long as you roll good stats and have way too much time to invest in skilling up, even a zero-karma character can be codedly good.

Quote from: Is Friday on June 03, 2018, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on June 02, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
It took me a decade to earn enough karma to special request a sorceror/mindbender.

Does your steak taste better because poor people can't afford it, too?

Does attacking me because I have a contrary opinion feel better than an opinion of your own about the actual topic?

Meanwhile, back on topic:

If the game had a skill point allocation system instead of karma acquisition, we wouldn't need to worry about any of this. It wouldn't be an issue at all. The only characters that would require special permission to play, are the roles that already currently require special permission to play: sponsored roles, psionicists, and sorcerers.

Anyone would be able to have any skill on their skills list, as long as they use their point allocation wisely. They wouldn't be good at some of them, but they'd all have at least the ability to codedly try anything as long as they choose to include it on their skills list. And because they only get a maximum number of points to allocate, they will have to choose: do I want to be a master armorsmith, or do I want to be a fairly decent all-around crafter? Do I want to be a master assassin, or do I just want to be "good" at combat in general and also be capable of using the SAP and backstab skills with at least some measure of success? Do I want to be a super-duper rangerly explorer with the absolute best scouting skills in the entire world, ever? Or do I want to be a generic ranger, who can also make the finest arrows known to sentient beings? Or maybe I want to make decent - but not awesome arrows, AND crochet doilies like a boss. And at least get a LITTLE bit of leeway at the merchant shops when I ask the NPCs for lower prices.

With a point allocation system you could do all that. Pick a template, get your defaults. Add other skills and skill-bumps as needed, until you run out of those extra points you get during chargen.

With how long it takes to revamp the guild system, do you really think that the game will ever have a point system? Work with what you have and keep it extra simple if you ever want your changes to be implemented.

Quote from: MarshallDFX on June 03, 2018, 06:31:42 AM
Karma accumulation should be automatic on days played.  If there are concerns about abuse or poor RP staff hand out a karma cap for a period of time, like they might a ban.

I think people would idle a lot more just to get their time played up. But I don't see why this has to be automatic. The first point (usually longevity) is meant to be easy to earn, and should really not require much besides a quick look over a player's acconut notes/character history. Karma reviews of accounts with 1 karma and upwards? I assume these are a lot more work, because things like "good communication", "understanding of racial structures" are a lot harder to verify than time played.

I don't understand the sentiment of "if I can't have it, nobody should have it", either. Your "thing" is a lot more effort than someone else's "thing", they aren't equivalent.

It's about changing the onus.  "Spends almost all the time idling.  Capping at 1 karma until September.". On everything else, it's fair enough, just too often people will fall through the cracks.  The real reason is that it's easier to dole out rewards than punishment.  But we end up here.  So I think we should start with the presumption people will kill it if given a chance to play a challenging role.

So saying this, maybe the answer is to make all 3 karma roles role calls or special apps

Quote from: MarshallDFX on June 03, 2018, 01:31:57 PM
It's about changing the onus.  "Spends almost all the time idling.  Capping at 1 karma until September.".

No. Never set up a system where you punish people for playing the game, even if they're not currently paying attention. They're still there, available, and likely will come to life as soon as someone reaches out to or interacts with them.

Quote from: Delirium on June 03, 2018, 02:07:34 PM

Quote from: MarshallDFX on June 03, 2018, 01:31:57 PM
It's about changing the onus.  "Spends almost all the time idling.  Capping at 1 karma until September.".

No. Never set up a system where you punish people for playing the game, even if they're not currently paying attention. They're still there, available, and likely will come to life as soon as someone reaches out to or interacts with them.

Actually you're completely right.  I should have stuck to my guns.  I don't care if people idle to get karma.

If there is a problem make them special app only.

Quote from: Nao on June 03, 2018, 11:26:03 AM

Quote from: MarshallDFX on June 03, 2018, 06:31:42 AM
Karma accumulation should be automatic on days played.  If there are concerns about abuse or poor RP staff hand out a karma cap for a period of time, like they might a ban.

I think people would idle a lot more just to get their time played up. But I don't see why this has to be automatic. The first point (usually longevity) is meant to be easy to earn, and should really not require much besides a quick look over a player's acconut notes/character history. Karma reviews of accounts with 1 karma and upwards? I assume these are a lot more work, because things like "good communication", "understanding of racial structures" are a lot harder to verify than time played.

I don't understand the sentiment of "if I can't have it, nobody should have it", either. Your "thing" is a lot more effort than someone else's "thing", they aren't equivalent.

The "it" you're referring to isn't another point of karma. It's being allowed to ASK for a karma review. There is absolutely no more effort on the part of the staff involved if everyone is allowed to ASK for a review, compared to only new players being allowed to ask for a review. Currently, no one is allowed to ask for a review. Anyone who doesn't already have 3 karma, is eligible for the staff to award them another point of karma, though the players aren't allowed to request that the staff consider it.

The OP is suggesting that new players should be allowed to request that the staff look into it, while the rest of the player base continue to not be allowed to request that the staff look into it.

I (and others) feel this isn't a good idea. Yes, we need to keep new players. But we also need to keep whatever veterans we already have. MANY of us took a hit on karma-required options during the karma revamp, and some of us are still here.

IMHO, Karma is a weapon that has been abused from the beginning and has caused a LOOOOOT of people to leave, for good or ilk.  Personally, I am leaning more towards the ilk, you can't institute a practice where some people just can't attain it because you decided not to pay attention to them.  In addition, you are forcing someone to play a role the way YOU want them to play the role and to heck with their interpretation of it.  Personally, I'd like to see it be less subjective and more objective, ie, the person is NOT abusing and playing badly, therefore they should get Karma.

I am lucky not to have to worry about the fact that karma reviews are paused, because I am happy with my karma level. Having been in the position of being unhappy with my karma level, oh, say 8 years ago, I empathize with those who are frustrated that they are sitting at 0 karma.

1 karma is a decent level of karma to have. Trust me, from experience; special apping a 3 karma role is challenging, unless you have either been accepted for such a role before, or you are experienced in multiple 2 karma or other similar high responsibility roles (regardles of karma). If you have 1 karma you have access to most of the variety of Zalanthas that will let you learn multiple facets of the game.

I'm fine with the OP's suggestion that 0 karma players have the ability to point out to staff that in their opinion, they merit a karma review. I'm fine with being unable to request a karma review because I am lucky to have been here for pretty much a decade now.

QuoteTrust me, from experience; special apping a 3 karma role is challenging, unless you have either been accepted for such a role before, or you are experienced in multiple 2 karma or other similar high responsibility roles (regardles of karma).

This would be the easiest thing to change, honestly.  Sorry, even with a spotty record, I had very little trouble trying out high-karma roles, insofar as it didn't become my 'go-to' thing to do.  Special applications shouldn't be hard to achieve, they maintain the bottleneck of population while also keeping low-karma players completely able to play high-karma roles.

There's almost no reason, in my head, for high-karma roles to be easily accessible via chargen alone.

I think karma review should be turned on, even while things are being sorted.  Absent that, please update the help file.  I've highlighted the line to remove from >help karma:

Quote
ArmageddonMUD operates a Karma system designed to open up the more complicated, powerful and RP challenging roles to players. Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player's:

Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced by playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to show that they are really involved in the game world, and also enriching the game world for other players.
Staff base their decisions to award karma on a set of categories. Each category has a list of criteria which players need to meet in order to gain a karma point. No more than one karma point can be awarded in any one category area.

Categories:
Longevity
Good communication
Ability to roleplay
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world
Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
Contributes to the game
Leadership
Players may request a karma review every twelve months. A Karma Review request will automatically have staff assessing your account against the karma criteria. Staff may also award (or remove) karma at their own discretion outside of Karma Review requests.

Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of role-playing your character should be the primary reward in itself. Most players will find that they do not progress past the three or four karma point range.

Karma is a totally out of character (OOC) concept, and should have no bearing whatsoever on what happens in the game.

Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff members; those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining karma is not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have a case to make about why you should be allowed to play a race or guild that you do not have karma for you may submit a special application through the request tool. See 'help special applications' for more information, and if you want to see which options are available at which level, see 'help karma options'.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 03, 2018, 07:50:03 PM

QuoteTrust me, from experience; special apping a 3 karma role is challenging, unless you have either been accepted for such a role before, or you are experienced in multiple 2 karma or other similar high responsibility roles (regardles of karma).

This would be the easiest thing to change, honestly.  Sorry, even with a spotty record, I had very little trouble trying out high-karma roles, insofar as it didn't become my 'go-to' thing to do.  Special applications shouldn't be hard to achieve, they maintain the bottleneck of population while also keeping low-karma players completely able to play high-karma roles.

There's almost no reason, in my head, for high-karma roles to be easily accessible via chargen alone.

I agree. But conversely, I feel that some high-karma roles should not be accessible at all via chargen and ONLY be accessible via special application or sponsored role. Which is how it is now, except that you're basically locked out of those options if you have less than max-karma, because those options are beyond the karma list, and you are required to have 3 karma points in order to submit a special application for them.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 03, 2018, 07:50:03 PM

There's almost no reason, in my head, for high-karma roles to be easily accessible via chargen alone.

Agreed.

Quote from: nauta on June 03, 2018, 07:51:40 PM
I think karma review should be turned on, even while things are being sorted.  Absent that, please update the help file.  I've highlighted the line to remove from >help karma:

Quote


Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff members; those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining karma is not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have a case to make about why you should be allowed to play a race or guild that you do not have karma for you may submit a special application through the request tool. See 'help special applications' for more information, and if you want to see which options are available at which level, see 'help karma options'.

That is part of what turns me off right there, this leaves no leeway whatsoever, it's a version of my way or the highway which ends up with a group of people who think the way 'they' do ALL the time and does not leave room for people who may think outside the box.  In other words, only 10 people fit that little niche, so player level is capped at 10 and the rest feeling disgruntled or leave altogether.  Instead of making Karma something that is used as a hatchet to cut at a player's legs, why not have it as a means to stop bad and abusive play.  Just my $0.02 here, but I think that now you revamped the game ic'ly why not revamp the 'Karma experience' ooc'ly?

Quote from: stoicreader on June 02, 2018, 10:37:04 PM
I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com

Since the two replies you received to this post were dismissive of your feelings, or simply sought to prove you wrong, allow me to present something rarely seen on the GDB: empathy and perspective.

Far, far too many people give bad things a chance. Your sideways relationship with Armageddon doesn't even scrape the surface of such bad things. After all, in the real world, people make bad choices, too. Significant others stick with abusers. Addicts sink into the trap of being willing to do anything for drugs. So let's not pretend that Armageddon is somehow as important or more important than actual, life-threatening situations that people get into, and yet somehow, cannot get themselves out of.

Armageddon, by comparison, is an easy thing to walk away from. It should be something people walk away from, when they're dissatisfied with it. I am glad you're deciding to walk away. It's something more people should do. After all, Armageddon is a game. If you're not having fun, leave. Chances are your life will improve massively. You suddenly have one less bad thing to be worried about.

Instead of getting addicted to Armageddon, focus on raising your son. I'm sure he'll remember you well for it.

Quote from: Cind on June 03, 2018, 03:06:26 AM
New System:

After 1 month, all players get one karma.

After one more month, all players get another karma. This continues with a cap of 3 total for each player for each month. Karma expenditure will drop the karma down to whatever the current level would be. Staff has a cap on how many non-mundanes of each type can be in the game, I dunno if this is really a good thing, as a gemmed witch I would have killed to have more witches to talk to.

Code will be in place if staff have determined that someone can't be trusted with a certain karma cap.

You know, like in the old days, before I started playing. Everyone was playing Shadowwalkers or some junk. I really miss a particular type of witch I used to be able to play, and it was actually not that useful to go on mass killings with, so I wasn't really sure it should have been high karma.

Man, but you guys sure miss the other witches. I guess I do too, even though I wasn't 2 karma long enough to do much with them.

I think you have the facts wrong about Karma, I have yet to see the other point and I have been around for 5 years and had a character last for 18 months RL and I had to do a karma review to get a second Karma point, mind you this is under the old system.  Now, I am at 1 on the new scale and I doubt I will see a second, so, I ask, how is it possible to get a second after 2 months RL?

Quote from: stoicreader on June 02, 2018, 10:37:04 PM
I'm going to log on in a few days when all the fun for my son's 2nd birthday is over and create a request for retirement of my PC and say goodbye to Armageddon.

The staff has been absolutely wonderful, and helpful, and sweet. Reiv was the biggest jerk, but that's okay, he's weird. The helpers were EXTREMELY healpful. I love the helpers. They really made this game possible for me. Syntax is tricky.

But its clear I have no future in this game. That fact that I'm not trusted after all this time, but other folks, (some obviously terrible RPers) get HGs and Gems, and Riposte; it's a complete disappointment. I played in my clan with a member who used riposte, a skill I'll probably never have the Karma to use. I'm just so sad at the lack of emotes from this person who has the staff trust that Ill never achieve. But I get it, great RP doesn't demand great emoting.

I never PKed, I never abused code,  get deep into my character and imagine their quickened breath burn as they run through HOT desert sands. And after 1 year I can't make a game breaking apothecary... It feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

This post made me realize I'm wasting my time. If I'm going to solo RP, I might as well write fantasy on my own. Maybe the fictional story of Reyna, the young orphan who becomes the female commander of a fleat of Rome's greatest merchants who traveled from the Orient to the Americas and explored the world. The stories of their adventures lost when the libraries of Alexandria were destroyed in the fires following the fall of Rome. She would have an affair with Emperor Marcus, fall in love with the world famous doctor from China, Zhang Zhong Jing, and I'll maybe have it end in betrayal by the highest members of the Senate, jealous of the advancement and elevation of Seneca, their chief competitor, who ultimately does nothing to save her.

If anything changes in this game, feel free to email me. Stoicreader@gmail.com

Sorry to hear about all this, I might be right behind you as I don't see any changes on the horizon.

It seems like my post is causing people to quit, consider quitting, or encourage each other to quit, which was...exactly the opposite of my intention. It's kind of making me feel meh on the whole subject, now.

Quote from: sleepyhead on June 03, 2018, 11:05:25 PM
It seems like my post is causing people to quit, consider quitting, or encourage each other to quit, which was...exactly the opposite of my intention. It's kind of making me feel meh on the whole subject, now.

if you're not feeling like quitting, then you don't care about the game, imo.  There are lots of games that I have played, I quit those because of only one reason, that reason is because I don't see any progress being made. However, progress for the same of progress is not progress, progress that matters to the players is what I am speaking about.  Frustration is another reason of course, I am not saying that staff is to blame, a lot of discontent is due to the overall atmosphere of other players ic'ly and the general malaise that permeates the gdb on a whole.  I have not spent much time on the gdb and only recently began posting.  Will I quit tomorrow?  I don't know, will I quit after the upcoming changes?  I don't know, it all depends on how things are handled overall, not just something to appease me or maybe 1 or 2 random people.  I am not that selfish to say that it's all about me, I would like to see the game change for the better and who knows, maybe the upcoming changes may be the catalyst.  You still have to address the players that left and no you can't just say that they don't matter because they are already gone.  I think listening to ALL concerns is the way to go and I hope that all points will be addressed and ARM can begin a much needed healing process.

With all that being said, Karma is the main antagonist.

Quote from: Zombie on June 03, 2018, 10:36:32 PM

Quote from: stoicreader on June 02, 2018, 10:37:04 PMIt feels like... Not sure on the word, "Glum"? Maybe not that strong, it's just a game after all. But really... Its also just a game... I'm no piranha.

Instead of getting addicted to Armageddon, focus on raising your son. I'm sure he'll remember you well for it.

THANK YOU for the recognition Zombie. First post too?

BTW

Piranha is a fish in the Amazon that uses teamwork to eat people. I meant pariah, which is an outcast from a Indian class of the untouchables caste.

If a good player, who doesn't break the rules, feels like a pariah in your extremely niche internet game... You're not making them feel welcome or included. Especially when it seems like 99% of the people I play with are 10+ year vets of the game.

I feel excluded and segregated and unwelcome. This is 100% because some people get to play krathi, Templars, HG, etc and I don't. The fact that they have trust and I don't makes me feel like this playground is only for the big kids.

Let me say that again. Many of your new players, once the syntax is figured out, feel excluded and unwelcome because of your policy. Yes it's a free game, so is chess at the park. But if the other chess players get to play with a full set of pieces and you don't, with no possibility of ever playing with a full set, because your the new person... You'll just go play chess with someone else.

I admit there is some degree of addiction, because I feel sad about giving it up. But this afternoon my son sat on my lap eating raspberries from the tips  of his tiny little fingers, looked up into my eyes, and said "I love you". My heart swelled with joy as my eyes glazed over with tears.

I can feel excluded and unwelcome trying to play a game... Or... I can have the love of my life cuddle with me in bed.

Games are supposed to add to your life... this just... Doesn't.

I'm unclear about something here. Some people who are leaving, theoretically, are new players who are upset about changes that happened before they ever started playing.

This means they started playing, knowing that the game is how it is, post-change. They chose to play the game as advertised. So how is it that they're upset because the game is different? It's exactly how it was when they started playing, which wasn't long ago, because these are "new players" we're talking about here.

If they're new, they never experienced the game before the changes were made. In fact, new changes are coming, which will EXPAND their options, even if the karma system doesn't change at all. They will soon have more options when they did when they started playing. Why then would they leave? They couldn't submit a karma review when they started playing, nothing has changed on that end. Nothing has been taken away from them. At all.

The only thing I'm seeing here, is that players are threatening to quit because a couple of players suggested something that a couple of other players liked, and a couple of -other- players didn't like, and staff hasn't chimed in with any official response about one way or another.

I'm sensing new players aren't quitting over the karma issue at all, because nothing has changed with regards to the karma system since any new players started playing.

Sure America is a free country but some folks are priveliged and others are not. Yea, it's a free game but why do you get to play with a full deck of cards and I don't?

We're both, I'm assuming, responsible women. Why is it that I'm not entitled with the same opportunities you had? You used to be able to ask for Karma, and got it. I never had that opportunity.

You're like a fish unto water if you can't imagine a new player's feeling of discrimination. You should know what discrimination feels like... Why are you so unwelcoming?

There is policy that locks me into options not as robust as your entitlements. You feel like you earned those entitlements? I'm confused why you're being so dismissive and rude. You don't want me playing with you in your super niche videogame?

Quote from: frankjacoby on June 03, 2018, 11:19:33 PM
if you're not feeling like quitting, then you don't care about the game, imo.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes sense.

The opposite has to be true for a lot of people. Why would a player quit if they do care?

I have seen staff introduce changes to address players' concerns. I've also seen changes a lot of players did not agree with. That doesn't mean there hasn't been progress made. That doesn't mean the people who continue playing and contributing don't care for the game.

Besides that, let's focus on discussing karma reviews, as this thread was intended for. I agree that the way karma is structured now is flawed. There's an urge to take on a reward mindset when you 'unlock' roles through karma, and are otherwise completely barred from taking such roles up (besides taking them on through special applications). That is, unless you happen to catch staff's attention. It's no wonder we have new players -- and not just the new -- wanting for karma.

I'm all in agreement for opening up karma reviews for players with no karma. The regen system may not be operational, yet, but Zalanthas won't crumble with a bunch of one karma roles apping in. That's how it's worked before. Someone whom staff grants one karma for should be able to be trusted, either way.

Why not just put in a request on the ask the staff forum, requesting that they take a look at all players who've been playing "x" amount of time and started playing before "y" date, to make sure that the longevity karma point has been appropriately granted to ALL players who qualify for it?

It looks to me like some new players might have been overlooked. But does that mean the staff should be inundated with dozens of requests from new players asking for a karma point? It seems like they have the metrics to figure out who "should" have that longevity point and who hasn't gotten there yet. It might even take awhile for them to do all the data gathering and come up with a list that they can work with.

But I think that'd be a whole lot more efficient than suddenly opening it up to every new player to send in individual requests. Especially since karma review requests are low priority and can take MONTHS to resolve, PER request.

That's why I thought the idea of an automated first point for longevity was a good one. Figure out the criteria of "what constitutes longevity" and then let the code grant it. It's not subjective, it's based on actual numbers. I don't know what would go into coding that, but I'm guessing it would take a lot less time than addressing a whole bunch of individual requests for that first point.

To put things into prospective, this is what you unlock with 1 Karma.

1 Karma:

• Races:
  
  • Desert elf - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Desert%20Elves

• Subclasses:
  
  • Water Touched - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Touched
  • Stone Touched - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Touched
  • Fire Touched - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Touched
  • Wind Touched - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Touched
  • Cutpurse - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Cutpurse
  • Rogue - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rogue
  • Grebber - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Grebber
  • Apothecary - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Apothecary
  • Majordomo - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Majordomo
  • Minstrel - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Minstrel
  • Master Tailor - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Tailor
  • Master Jeweler - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Jeweler
  • Master Weaponsmith - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Weaponsmith
  • Master Crafter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Crafter
  • Master Armorsmith - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Armorsmith
  • Master Potter - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Potter
  • Master Chef - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Chef
  • Master Trader - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Master%20Trader

You have Desert Elves and you also have some of the 'touched' subclasses.

Desert Elves are tricky to get into the mindset, because you MUST belong to an existing tribe.  More Info -
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Desert%20Elf%20Tribes
Applications:
   When you apply with a desert elf character, any character with magick
ability must be pre-approved through a Clan Related: Question request
through the Request Tools. All Desert Elves have a maximum number allowed
in each tribe, so you may be rejected when creating one of these due to
the tribe being full. If you want to be sure you're ok, submit a request
first to ask about availability.


You also have 'touched' subclasses, which can give you access to magick spells...  I wish there was a magick hunter class.  :)

stoicreader your fantasy writing looks top notch and I look forward to seeing more if you'd ever want to post some.

I recommend you make a special application for an apothecary and see what happens?

Quote from: Lizzie on June 04, 2018, 12:34:28 AM
That's why I thought the idea of an automated first point for longevity was a good one. Figure out the criteria of "what constitutes longevity" and then let the code grant it. It's not subjective, it's based on actual numbers. I don't know what would go into coding that, but I'm guessing it would take a lot less time than addressing a whole bunch of individual requests for that first point.

I could definitely get behind this, based on how the longevity point has been granted.

Hahahah, I've been playing this game for over six years and I've never gotten more than a single karma.

Lizzie,

While I do not disagree with your comments, I do have to agree and be empathetic towards the new players' point of view.

The IMMS, who by the way I am very thankful for the countless hours of work they put into this game for US, decided that they would stop karma reviews until the spending system could be figured out.

I pose this question to the IMMs, not as an act of hostility, but so everyone has full understanding:

Why was the karma review removed for -everyone- until you fix the spending system, while players who already had karma before you decided to change the system, are not subject to the same restrictions new players are?

If we are trying to retain new players, and many of them are complaining about this, I feel that it should be addressed directly. If it is a workload thing, and will take a bunch of time, I think that is a more than fair response, and they probably be more understanding if it was just explained to them by one of you, rather than an opinion from one of us.

I would also be wary of advocating a "you knew what you were signing up for" argument which is just as tone deaf and inaccurate.

I imagine most just read the website, which as pointed out, is wrong.

I even agree most  karma wouldn't be used.  But it's a sign something is awry with the whole conception of the current karma system that not getting something we won't use is frustrating.

It's an angst generator, and becomes obvious with a cursory browse of "about karma".  It seems written without any realization where it sits.

#killkarma #chillpillforarm

I posted before that I was in support of newer players getting longevity points of Karma. This on the assumption that, no, they are not sitting idling, but actively playing and contributing and learning the game systems and possibly even making way toward the other listed criteria of Karma. Do we want non-responsive zombies sitting in the taverns, guildhalls and standing in the streets? No. If a person is truly playing and writing reports/bios, I hope that they are not getting ignored even if Karma is not involved right now. Because that would be a shame.

I doubt this is the case.

There is stuff in the game that an inexperienced player is gonna slam against and go WHY if they haven't had a chance to just see or hear about it. This needs actual game 'play', not 'time'. As you creep up the Karma scale, the gloves come off and the world starts gut punching you. People get more critical because they are hoping for more from your character. Some things, you don't actually get to know about until you are in your character's boots and on the stones running. By that point, perhaps you should know some things and some stuff.

Sooo... Eh. I admit to being a little checked out of the topic because I don't think that the higher level Karma options seem at all fun on paper (haven't gotten to play in the higher tiers). I don't personally understand why people are so on about reaching for all that these roles inherently entail. The customization a person can have for the subguilds, extended subguilds and skillbumps is nice, though.

Lets focus on the stuff we know from staff.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 02, 2018, 04:43:02 PM
It is likely when karma reviews are allowed again that the opening up will be tiered by karma level, simply for workload considerations.  It is unlikely we will allow karma reviews before the spendable karma system is operational.

Quote from: Rahnevyn on June 03, 2018, 12:26:53 AM
Special apps are also not restricted to players with karma. If you like, you can special app for one-karma guilds and subguilds as a new player; many players do.

The first karma point is traditionally awarded for longevity, and is evaluated on both cumulative playtime as well as account age. Playtime is measured in days played, both on a single character and across all characters. There's currently no official threshold, but for accounts below 10 days cumulative playtime, I would suggest playing more roles before expecting karma.

So. Frankly speaking, it sounds like no suggestion or yearning or logical argument is going to sway staff beyond "We need to fix the Spendable Karma System" first. Sorry guys, but if there's one thing Brokkr does, its tell you like it is.

For what Rah stated, the staff expectation is that new players use their special-app slots (of which they get 2 per year) to apply for something more than what they have, despite the fact that they obviously have not had enough "play time" to get the 1st karma in the first place.


I just want it known. That is what staff have said, and these are the fact. There will be no opening of the Karma Reviews until they fix things. Karma Reviews have been offline for 16months or so. I am of the opinion that it is not a priority for current staff to maintain or retain new players (meaning that they may be working on it, but it isn't their top worry). When you wonder why Riev is salty, this is why.

Quote from: WithSprinkles on June 04, 2018, 08:43:03 AM
Do we want non-responsive zombies sitting in the taverns, guildhalls and standing in the streets? No.

this is just pearl clutching.

What is the objective of the karma system? And to what end? From the helpfiles it seems to be a continuous and subjective evaluation of roleplay prowess and personal trustworthiness to ensure generally limited and well RPd karma classes.  And I just don't think that is a workable, or even desirable goal.

A karma system serving as a "advanced class" allocation method on the other hand could be totally automatic.

A RPI game with high quality RP is absolutely a desirable goal.

Giving karma is subjective.  To take the longevity point, which is often the first point folks get, there are some objective points.  Playing over a year.  No bad account notes for six months.  And then then subjective.  Play 10 days over multiple characters?  Several 5 day characters?  Less than that but is a phenomenal roleplayer or really seems to get and take into account the game world?  You could automate part of this, but not all of it.

Thanks for the quick response Brokkr. I (and apparently other people) thought the longevity point was more of a data-specific earn than a subjective earn.

Would the staff consider checking on all accounts that opened during the time frame of "the day it was announced that karma reviews were being shut off" and "more than 4 months ago" - to see if any of those accounts have earned their first point for longevity, without requiring them to submit a request for a review that isn't an option right now?

I'll take a leap and assume that at least a few have fallen through the cracks, because we're all humans here (except Nessalin, who is a cyborg).

Quote from: azuriolinist on June 04, 2018, 12:23:26 AM

Quote from: frankjacoby on June 03, 2018, 11:19:33 PM
if you're not feeling like quitting, then you don't care about the game, imo.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes sense.

The opposite has to be true for a lot of people. Why would a player quit if they do care?

I have seen staff introduce changes to address players' concerns. I've also seen changes a lot of players did not agree with. That doesn't mean there hasn't been progress made. That doesn't mean the people who continue playing and contributing don't care for the game.

Besides that, let's focus on discussing karma reviews, as this thread was intended for. I agree that the way karma is structured now is flawed. There's an urge to take on a reward mindset when you 'unlock' roles through karma, and are otherwise completely barred from taking such roles up (besides taking them on through special applications). That is, unless you happen to catch staff's attention. It's no wonder we have new players -- and not just the new -- wanting for karma.

I'm all in agreement for opening up karma reviews for players with no karma. The regen system may not be operational, yet, but Zalanthas won't crumble with a bunch of one karma roles apping in. That's how it's worked before. Someone whom staff grants one karma for should be able to be trusted, either way.

You missed my point, so I don't see the need to go through it again, but the focus needs to be on retention, you don't want an influx of new players whojust  turn around and leave.

The point of the OP is missed.

The problem is not Karma. I don't care about Karma. The problem is a policy that is discriminatory.

Discrimination example 1: This policy favors peak-time players over off-peak players for several reasons.

• As an off peaker there are not many RP opportunities, much of what I do is solo play, so I cannot reasonable demonstrate I understand the game world without sending in character reports.
• As an off peaker, you get tired of solo-emoting, so it looks like we're all just twinks. But... how creative do you need to get to Forage Clay by yourself if you haven't seen someone in 10 hours of game-time?
• As an off peak player there aren't many leadership roles available. Even then, there will be very few folks under you. It would be "leadership-lite" and just figure-head leadership, not actual leadership.
• As an off peak player, it is very unlikely you're around when your clan IMM is around to watch you. The "don't touch the players in my clan" policy causes off peak players to be ignored unless they are doing something wrong. Which I haven't done, yet.

Discrimination example 2: This policy favors regular play, not casual or irregular players. Those of us with children, jobs, and busy lives cannot log-on regularly. Because of this were not memorable to the powers that be unless we play a very unique roll and make very detailed character reports. (which I do) Even then, character reports are not enough if no one observes you play. It could all just be fabricated.

Discrimination example 3: New players are obviously discriminated against because they do not have the same opportunities that other players once had. You started 18 months ago and requested Karma and got it? I started 12 months ago and cannot even ask. One person, by virtue of starting early has an opportunity that newer folks do not get.

Imagine a hardcore player who LOVES Armageddon but can only play off peak (point 1), with an irregular schedule (point 2), and they are new (point 3). Without the ability to ASK for Karma, they will likely NEVER get it.

I carry around a purse notebook with maps I've drawn, character's I've met, backgrounds of future characters, hand drawn portraits of my characters (and others), as well as bios. I write it all in a beautiful script using G2 ink refills on a engineered + machined stainless steel pen. I use note taking software to organize events in my character's life so I can really make the story come to life. It's the same stuff I use to write books and it makes story telling look like a cool Wikipedia article. I have tags for everything so I can easily search. I started using a Surface Pro so I can take the game with me on the go to Coffee Shops. (Especially because I lost connection on my home computer during a climax with a Karma privileged PC and had my character killed/stored.)  I installed a bad-ass mud client so I can script my character's personality with special triggers that fire off hidden emotes when I "feel" certain emotions. I added Mood to my prompt and am working on using timers to change the mood depending on the time of day in game.

So then I see this post and realize that I'll NEVER get recognition... maybe when my son is middle school... Forget it! I'll apply my creativity elsewhere.

People likely to quit Armageddon.

• New people who don't know MUDs: Syntax is a bitch. Helpers fix this problem.
• New people who want to play NOW: No fix, character approval required.
• New people who see all these people with rolls and guilds they may never have an opportunity to get to play. They feel discrimination.
• Any player who plays off peak, this game does not support off-peak play or players.
• Casual players

So not only is your niche game super niche by being a Roleplay intensive Text-only game it's niche in several other ways too. The fact that you need to be mature enough to wait for character approval, be technical enough to learn "programming.lite" in order to emote, to be a player who is available during peak times, who has the time to play regularly, and who started 12+ months ago.

If you're not all these things, you eventually quit.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 04, 2018, 11:51:41 AM
A RPI game with high quality RP is absolutely a desirable goal.

It's a desirable outcome but not one I'd design the karma system to achieve.  That confuses ends and means, and is the thrust of my point.  If liberalizing karma aquisition resulted in less high quality RP well then color me surprised, but at least we're not running nuclear power stations here.

But I'm probably out on the fringe here.  For the record I'm a big fan of the spend system.  If I was choosing a goal for the system it would be to limit the quantity of these classes in game but give all the regular players a fair shot of doing it justice.  They may surprise us all.

In two weeks I will have been playing for 1 year now, I've had a character with 65+ days played and I still have 0 karma. I don't really care about karma, just throwing it out there to give some info from a semi-new player.

Not on board with this. In any way.

Quote from: ShaLeah on June 04, 2018, 02:28:14 PM
Not on board with this. In any way.

Very useful and helpful, Shaleah! ... Perhaps maybe explain why you're not on board with "this", hoping that "this" is the OP's suggestion and not the other 12 things being batted around? Perhaps you have some insight on why a veteran player is against the initiative?


I feel all the concerns and points, and I'm not a new player. We ARE a niche community in the MUDding world, and as an RPI, even more of a niche (We're hardly an RPI these days, either). We can either whittle down until we have 8 people we REALLY REALLY support playing the game, or try to at least listen to what more than a couple new players have said over the past year. Do you NEED to change anything? Fuck no. This is Staff's game, and we get to play in it.

But if some newbie has said "I love this game, but I see this broken system as a problem."... I certainly hope there is more IDB discussion than "Players are whining again".

Unfortunately I feel like it's probably too late to fix the problems stoicreader listed since they have been the same problems since I started playing a billion years ago.

Casual and offpeak players will always be screwed, that's just the nature of MMOs and if you add something to make it more fair then it will be abused by those who have decided to dedicate their lives to Arm 24/7.

The syntax just keeps getting more complicated but newbies should know that you can completely ignore it and do just fine with just ~ % and ! like I have been doing for years.

If you are upset because you feel it's unfair that some players have more this or that than you do then you are really better off quitting now because Armageddon has always had a reputation for Staff pets and that reputation is really hard to be rid of. You will find other examples of unfairness even if you have full karma.

In my humble opinion, the less staff attention you receive, the more fun the game is. If you decide to stay on Arm (I've had the best gaming fun on Arm than in any other games) you have to accept that it comes with many flaws that you won't be able to change or just move on.

I wish that the karma scale wasn't shrunken down the way that it was. With that said, I think karma reviews are a good thing if someone was still 0 Karma after one year...with the old system. With the new system I think that it should be more like 3 years. Letting people play a karma-restricted character just to see if they can handle it isn't doing anyone any favors. That is how we get muls walking around just being buf humans, elf-human love, breeds that don't breed, and magickers that think they are equal to everyone else in the grand social scheme of things.

Just play the game and have fun. Part of the awesomeness is when you /finally/ get to play that guild or class that you have been dying to play for a long time! Toss any ideas of entitlement out of the window because they are just as silly here as they are IRL.

Have fun with the game, follow the rules, and it will come - I promise!

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on June 04, 2018, 03:32:38 PM
That is how we get muls walking around just being buf humans, elf-human love, breeds that don't breed, and magickers that think they are equal to everyone else in the grand social scheme of things.

I've seen half-giants played like murder machines with little downside, so I get that. City elves, humans, and breeds are all available at 0 karma, so I don't really see how that fits in though.

Quote from: Malken on June 04, 2018, 03:21:31 PM
Unfortunately I feel like it's probably too late to fix the problems stoicreader listed since they have been the same problems since I started playing a billion years ago.

Casual and offpeak players will always be screwed, that's just the nature of MMOs and if you add something to make it more fair then it will be abused by those who have decided to dedicate their lives to Arm 24/7.

The syntax just keeps getting more complicated but newbies should know that you can completely ignore it and do just fine with just ~ % and ! like I have been doing for years.

If you are upset because you feel it's unfair that some players have more this or that than you do then you are really better off quitting now because Armageddon has always had a reputation for Staff pets and that reputation is really hard to be rid of. You will find other examples of unfairness even if you have full karma.

In my humble opinion, the less staff attention you receive, the more fun the game is. If you decide to stay on Arm (I've had the best gaming fun on Arm than in any other games) you have to accept that it comes with many flaws that you won't be able to change or just move on.

Armageddon, or any roleplaying MUD, is about as fun without staff attention as a D&D session is without a DM. The staff exist to support plots and move the game forward, and provide fun opportunities to players. It's why they are volunteers. If they have failed to provide fun opportunities to players then those players should find a game that provides fun to them.

---

Also, people who are saying variations of: I never had problems getting my karma, just play the game and have fun, my experiences have been fine, or what have you: look up "FYIGM" in Urban Dictionary and tell me how that is a valid position to have in a game that barely reaches 200 active players most weeks.

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on June 04, 2018, 03:32:38 PM
With the new system I think that it should be more like 3 years.

That just seems insane to me. Three years is how long it takes to get a degree in some fields. You want to tell me that's how long it takes before a player can handle a desert elf without having to ask for the one-time privilege of trying it? I can get a degree in literature in the time it takes me to prove that I can be trusted with the cutpurse subguild? It just sounds completely out of touch with reality. What's the justification for mandating that a player must have served three years before they've proven themselves to the first tier of restricted roles? Three years?! It's just... I don't understand this premise at all. Sounds more like irrational possessiveness than anything. In most jobs, you're a trusted core employee after three years.

That's to say nothing of the higher karma roles; 7-10 years is how long it typically takes to become partner in a law firm. How could that possibly be how long you have to play Armageddon before the administration thinks you can handle a mul? It just doesn't even begin to make sense. It's mindboggling. I doubt more than one or two percent of players even play that long, and from hearing players in this thread, many who do play that long still aren't trusted with more than the middle tier. I just can't see how this is the right way to handle such a system. You can become a doctor in the time it takes to learn to play a sorcerer? Really? Is it that difficult?

This guy gets it. I am a constant supporter of "Who cares about staff? Do anything you can that doesn't involve them." for my own personal reasons, but its about as fun as Playing DnD without a DM. I may as well play a scripted Hack and Slash MUD and get really buff magic missile.

Staff volunteer to support the players and their plots, and to help the world seem "alive" when you're not there to interact with it. Karma is the level of trust the Staff as an Organization has placed  in you to maintain the feel of the world being alive without their intervention, rewarded by playing some cool new combination of skills/magick.

Unfortunately, people playing for a full year have not felt that they are part of this community due in no small part to the Karma Review restriction and the fact that you "can get karma but only if a staffer happens to notice you". Its not about Peak. Its not about Off Peak. Its about whether you, as a player, are noticed and given fair and equitable treatment. Right now, some are saying they do not feel that treatment and expressed that it has turned them off. They are using their voice to try and make it better because they want to play and be one of 'us'. Please don't gatekeep a dying community.

I thought that I was being pretty easy with the three years. The way people play directly affects the environment of the game. If a bunch of people who do not grasp the documentation are playing in roles that they really can't understand it sets the bar lower and lower - I've been watching that happen for years. One of the major things that make Armageddon great is the caliber of players that we have and the extremely high standards. We shouldn't continue to lower those standards just to make people feel included or to be nice - earn it.

I promise that if you follow the rules and play by the documentation you will be rewarded. Really.

Play the game, have fun, murder over a waterskin, hate elves, and steal boots! You'll get there!

Quote from: rangerdanger on June 04, 2018, 04:05:47 PM
without having to ask for the one-time privilege of trying it?

FWIW, special apping a character at $mykarmaplusone has always been one of the most reliable methods of earning karma, especially for low playtime or offpeak players.

I agree that people who aren't having fun should quit, as should people who need to focus on RL. Maybe stoicreader is one of those people, and that's totally fine! I've had friends who have quit and I never pressure them to come back, even though I'd love to play with them. I just tell them they should continue doing whatever makes them happy, and if they're living more content, more fulfilled lives without Arm, I wouldn't want to see them return and be unhappy just because of my own selfish desire to play with them.

But some of us are just frustrated with certain aspects of the game, and aren't intent on throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And others are considering quitting but wouldn't if certain things were fixed. I want to work on addressing those concerns. It doesn't really matter to me whether noobs "deserve" that point of karma or not, or whether it's bratty in some way for them to want to ask for it. The point is that it's a complaint I'm seeing over and over and it looks to me like we're losing players that we shouldn't have to lose, that we could easily retain if we adjusted our attitudes.

Some might say that new players who fixate on karma or feel they are "entitled" (as some put it) to rewards aren't the kind of new players that we need to retain. I STRONGLY disagree.

Firstly, the kinds of roles available to 1 karma players (without special apps, which have to be manually approved by staff anyway) are not particularly special, except maybe for touched guilds. I'd personally advocate for an expansion of the karma system to 4 or 5 points, so we could put touched a tier above, but whatever. It's still fine to leave the 1 karma tier as something very attainable.

Secondly, even if this attitude is the "wrong" one to have--and I'm not going to argue one way or another--I don't think we need to be using issues like this as some sort of gatekeeping device to deter newbies who are perceived as needy or whatever. You have to allow newbies room to grow into "mature" players, whatever that means to you, and that means not turning them off right off the bat. If that means throwing them a little piece of carrot to show they're appreciated and Nergal's "aristocracy of old players" isn't as unwelcoming as they think it is, I am all for it. I'm not advocating some sort of extreme, exaggerated measure like "grant all newbies full karma." I'm just advocating that they be able to ask for the longevity point they're already supposed to be getting, in case they haven't been noticed by staff yet.

Thirdly, many of the seemingly unsolvable problems we have with Arm would be easily addressed if we had a larger playerbase. So yeah. I'm prioritizing retaining newbies. The people who cry that the game is dying may be melodramatic, but they're not wrong that MUDs are not exactly the genre of the future. We need to be working extra hard and doing everything we can (within reason) to keep our playerbase strong, and maybe even grow it. That means looking into why people who otherwise like the game quit and figuring out how to keep them around.

Sure, it might feel like we kept the game "purer" if we make people wait 3 years for a single point of karma, but what will that be worth when there are hardly any players around anymore because the slow march of veteran players moving on with their lives continued, while we simultaneously failed to retain new players? Will we still be thinking, "Good riddance, we didn't need those spoiled snowflakes anyway?" Or will we be wishing we didn't push them away when they were still green, and deny them the chance to grow into the attitudes we expect of them?

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on June 04, 2018, 04:14:24 PM
I thought that I was being pretty easy with the three years.

Complete lunacy.  I'm just so flabbergasted I think you might be trolling.

God forbid we let people try a halfgiant after playing a game regularly for a year... they might roleplay mediocrely and then my personal enjoyment will be briefly and temporarily eroded somewhat.  To hell with them if they're trying and enjoy it.

Quote from: Riev on June 04, 2018, 04:10:03 PM
Please don't gatekeep a dying community.

Basically, this.

Quote from: MarshallDFX on June 04, 2018, 04:28:10 PM
Complete lunacy.  I'm just so flabbergasted I think you might be trolling.

I'm not arguing for or against, but this is totally in line with how it used to work.

QuoteAdded 1 karma, making 1 total, for Not a bad player, worth seeing what she will do. -  7/13/06.
Set karma to 2 - 10/17/07.
Added 1 karma, making 3 total, for Really impressed with Jakub, and he's very informative and succint in updates. I can't believe he was only 2 karma. - 12/26/08.
Set karma to 4, Given after review request. Been some time since last point, and no negative notes, however player informed that after 4th point of karma additional points are harder to gain and for meritous behaviour, rather than length of time. - 10/10/10.
Set karma to 5 -  5/28/12.

I'm not a particularly exemplary player; I'm the short-playtimes, takes-long-breaks, plays-boring-characters, no-leadership-roles kind of player. On the 8-point scale, I got about one karma per year (and maxed out at 5).

TheLonelyHunter was in fact saying that with the new scale, you should have to play 3 years to get 1 karma. Or at least that's how I read it.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 04, 2018, 04:49:16 PM

Quote from: MarshallDFX on June 04, 2018, 04:28:10 PM
Complete lunacy.  I'm just so flabbergasted I think you might be trolling.

I'm not arguing for or against, but this is totally in line with how it used to work.

*edit* think I was getting wires crossed.  Yes, and I think that's nuts.

Your suggestion to special app as a way to get karma is a good one.

Quote from: sleepyhead on June 04, 2018, 04:50:42 PM
TheLonelyHunter was in fact saying that with the new scale, you should have to play 3 years to get 1 karma. Or at least that's how I read it.

Yeah, I'm just saying: if 1 karma now == 2-3 karma of old, it took me 2-3 years to get to that level.

Mm, I think having 1 karma under the new scale is actually much like having 1 karma in the old scale. 2 karma is like having 2-4 karma. 3 karma is something like having 5-7 karma, even though people who had 5 karma previously were put in the 2 karma tier.

Quote from: Zombie on June 04, 2018, 03:52:45 PM

Armageddon, or any roleplaying MUD, is about as fun without staff attention as a D&D session is without a DM. The staff exist to support plots and move the game forward, and provide fun opportunities to players. It's why they are volunteers. If they have failed to provide fun opportunities to players then those players should find a game that provides fun to them.

---

Also, people who are saying variations of: I never had problems getting my karma, just play the game and have fun, my experiences have been fine, or what have you: look up "FYIGM" in Urban Dictionary and tell me how that is a valid position to have in a game that barely reaches 200 active players most weeks.

I completely disagree.

If anything, I think Staff feel fortunate and have fun playing with the Players, rather than slogging through building projects, handling TPS reports, and having meetings within meetings about the game.

You may consider 'Players' to be equitable with 'Players' in a D&D session, but my own experience has dictated a grey area. Players are both DM's, and Players, able to effect great change simply through their own perseverance and gumption. I've enjoyed more Player on Player plots than any Staff Run plot, during my time playing here.

I understand why Staff haven't re-opened Karma reviews. It makes sense not to want to work in a half-built system.

That being said, I absolutely understand where new players are coming from. I've been playing since the early 2000's, off peak. I had a grand total of one karma, till a couple of years ago, when I got my second (Now one again on the new scale) It can feel exactly like you're just...not on the right bus. People post that they've played 5 sorcs, or a handful of Templars, and you despair of ever getting to do it yourself. People who -were- playing during those times and never saw any of the legendary characters of yore, let alone played them. (Though as a lot of people know, without the rose tint to your glasses, things were objectively not better back then, RP or otherwise)

But if the review system can't be re-opened for a while yet I'd love Staff to at least make sure that new players who are doing well, that are putting it reports, that feel like they're missing out, get their foot on the ladder. I don't feel like I need to stop anyone else reaching the same rung as me. If it keeps them happy, and here.

Quote0 karma, review can be requested after regular play for 6 months to move to point 1.
At 1 karma, requests to move to point 2: at least 1.5 year of regular play.
At 2 karma, request to move to point 3: at least 3 years of regular play.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638)

If you are a regular, exemplary player, the intent is that the above will apply.  This is not to say that most players will move to 3 karma, but rather the timeline for those it makes sense to move to that level.

I would guess there is some disagreement in what folks are calling a "regular" player.  How many days of playtime per real life year qualifies, in your mind?  How big can any gaps in play be?

Quote from: Brokkr on June 04, 2018, 05:24:33 PM

Quote0 karma, review can be requested after regular play for 6 months to move to point 1.
At 1 karma, requests to move to point 2: at least 1.5 year of regular play.
At 2 karma, request to move to point 3: at least 3 years of regular play.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638)

If you are a regular, exemplary player, the intent is that the above will apply.  This is not to say that move players will move to 3 karma, but rather the timeline for those it makes sense to move to that level.

I would guess there is some disagreement in what folks are calling a "regular" player.  How many days of playtime per real life year qualifies, in your mind?  How big can any gaps in play be?

I'm also not sure why players don't consider this to be a vast improvement to the previous Karma system, where two people playing for, say, ten RL years may or may not have anywhere near the same level of karma. Some might have 3, others 8, and that is where the favoritism and 'right place, right time' comes in. This seems much more streamlined, based around a 3 year turnaround, and expects that people will be on a mostly level playing field after sticking with the game, learning the ropes, and learning to RP well.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 04, 2018, 05:24:33 PM

Quote0 karma, review can be requested after regular play for 6 months to move to point 1.
At 1 karma, requests to move to point 2: at least 1.5 year of regular play.
At 2 karma, request to move to point 3: at least 3 years of regular play.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.msg989638.html#msg989638)

If you are a regular, exemplary player, the intent is that the above will apply.  This is not to say that move players will move to 3 karma, but rather the timeline for those it makes sense to move to that level.

I would guess there is some disagreement in what folks are calling a "regular" player.  How many days of playtime per real life year qualifies, in your mind?  How big can any gaps in play be?

Brokkr,

This needs to be a sticky in it's own self on the announcement page. It is clear and concise.

I would think someone regularly giving 3-5 years of their time and being stuck at low levels of Karma completely unacceptable.

I got maybe a dozen emails the last few days, a half dozen messages of folks who go through the same thing or empathize with me. Many asked me not to quit.

I definitely feel the love, no doubt. When I logged on this afternoon to settle affairs before quitting Armageddon, I created some dramatic reason behind my character leaving.

And crazier things happened and over 3 hours I got so excited about the role. Staff showed up and played with us!! I wished up for something and we got it!!! <3 that's never happened in my off peak life.

It was as if you all deliberately planned a ninja RPT the moment I logged on to quit, starting within minutes, just to prevent me from quitting.

I'm so torn.

I want to punish the policy of discrimination and not participate in this game, but that was so fun. It had blood and romance and death and pain and inspiration and I cried a little.

Really. I cried a little.

I still have one foot out the door and will still probably quit when the emotional high wears off. But I hope maybe before I do quit, that the staff will say something positive about the plight of newbies and how they want it fixed too.

Just recognize that it ain't right... And promise to fix it.

yeah...so I read a lot of the posts by folks here who I know damn well have 2 karma or more (sorry, I'm meta like that, I know past characters you played and can surmise your current karma level from it. That shit happens when you've been around a long time), and I gotta say...you need to have a bit more understanding of the new folks here who don't have the karma to play the roles you do.

So, as I said before, and since it really is just my opinion and nothing else, I agree with the suggestion that the 1st karma point either be automated, or reviewed more willingly, than say the 2nd or 3rd karma points, which mean much more in the grand scheme of things.

New players really are the lifeblood of the game. I do hope that any new player seeing this thread isn't turned away from the game over this discussion, but I'm not going to sit here with my current karma level and tell ya'll that you don't deserve a karma review, because when I was playing over the first several years of my Arm career I had access to karma reviews like it wasn't even a thing. Please, stick around, and give the imms a chance to figure out whatever it is they need to figure out (hopefully in a way that sticks) so that you get to keep learning the game.

I don't care about Karma, give it to whoever or don't.   

Quote from: stoicreader on June 04, 2018, 10:55:15 PM
...But I hope maybe before I do quit, that the staff will say something positive about the plight of newbies and how they want it fixed too.

Currently, the ArmageddonMUD Discord channel is the most active place to chat with staff members.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52418.0.html

Often, it's just various people speaking about what food they are cooking, but sometimes good discussions happen there about what we want to see change in the game, and immortals also chime in.   I personally find it a better way to communicate than in long form discussions that the GDB is designed for.

I would suggest to pop in.   In my personal experience, I know I've made suggestions to change some things in the game to make it better for newbies, either through the idea / bug command, or through the request tool, and they eventually went in. 


Regarding workload for immortals - I would like some data before making more suggestions.
Rahnevyn or Brokkr, could you give us some data regarding the 203 players that logged in last week?  What is the Karma breakdown of these players?

Oh, I gotta say though I read this thread and I agree with stoic reader mostly.

There's a lot of talks about karma. I just want to chime in to say that getting karma now is even easier than it was.

For 10 years I've been playing with only 3 karma - in the new system, that means I only have 1 karma. There was no structured system on how we were able to gain karma either, so there was no way any players would've known how to gain any. In the recent years, staff has made some changes in the karma system in an effort to make it more attainable for - yup, you guessed right - new players.

They wrote out a fleshed out help file where karma is categorized so players know which areas they need to improve on in order to gain karma.

They shrunk the karma scale from 8 to 3 - that's a giant shrink btw - so that - yup, you guessed right again! - new players are able to play more options once they gain that single point of karma, whereas, in the past, you are only able to play desert elf when you gain that first point of karma.

Yes, they shut down karma review. But this doesn't mean that is the only way to gain karma. Armageddon is not a regular game where you spend this amount of effort and gain prizes right away. Armageddon is a more challenging game, and the rewards aren't gained in badges or achievements but through pitfalls, meeting challenges face on, and yes, lots and lots of patience, understanding (from both sides - staff and players alike), and the willingness to keep an open mind as well as emotions in check while trying to figure out just what is the best way it is to reach your goal.

This is what makes Armageddon so fun, at least for me.

Quote from: Kankfly on June 04, 2018, 11:43:51 PM
There's a lot of talks about karma. I just want to chime in to say that getting karma now is even easier than it was.

For 10 years I've been playing with only 3 karma - in the new system, that means I only have 1 karma. There was no structured system on how we were able to gain karma either, so there was no way any players would've known how to gain any. In the recent years, staff has made some changes in the karma system in an effort to make it more attainable for - yup, you guessed right - new players.

They wrote out a fleshed out help file where karma is categorized so players know which areas they need to improve on in order to gain karma.

They shrunk the karma scale from 8 to 3 - that's a giant shrink btw - so that - yup, you guessed right again! - new players are able to play more options once they gain that single point of karma, whereas, in the past, you are only able to play desert elf when you gain that first point of karma.

Yes, they shut down karma review. But this doesn't mean that is the only way to gain karma. Armageddon is not a regular game where you spend this amount of effort and gain prizes right away. Armageddon is a more challenging game, and the rewards aren't gained in badges or achievements but through pitfalls, meeting challenges face on, and yes, lots and lots of patience, understanding (from both sides - staff and players alike), and the willingness to keep an open mind as well as emotions in check while trying to figure out just what is the best way it is to reach your goal.

This is what makes Armageddon so fun, at least for me.

<3

On Mansa's data point, I'd love to see three scatter/boxplot charts:

Total account days played by current karma level (all history)

Account days played in the last two years by current karma level

New Karma level achieved by days played since the karma changes (ie potentially multiple points per account)

Bonus points if the points could be colour scaled by the amount of negative/positive account notes

I'm not in favor of karma being tied only to time played, as seems to be suggested by some posters.  You can play ten years and still not be a great roleplayer or understand how to make advanced roles fit in to the fabric of the story so that it doesn't interfere with the smooth interlocking of all the creators of the story, the other players.  Remember the conversation recently about half-giants and how so many of them are played incorrectly, to such a degree that some wanted them removed entirely from the game.

If Karma isn't a merit-based metric, people who only play tanking dwarfs who do nothing more than spar up so they can go slaughter stuff will eventually be playing the most powerful roles in the game, just the same way.

Karma isn't perfect, that's for sure.  I figure I have about the right amount for how I understand the game and how I would be able to integrate roles I played into the world.  It's good to point out flaws in the system and debate how to fix it.

It's understandable that new players would feel stymied, but I would suggest that instead of demanding trust or else doesn't come across as very trustworthy.  It seems to me that staff will want good players playing demanding roles in the future and will find ways to see that capable players make their way into those roles.  Patience and maturity will help more than threats and accusations.

Mansa, take a look at the post about "how many chacaters have you played?".

Take a look at the crazy awesome options people have rolled. Yourself also. Sorcerer, nilazi, psi...

Quote from: Refugee on June 05, 2018, 08:19:31 AM
It's understandable that new players would feel stymied, but I would suggest that instead of demanding trust or else doesn't come across as very trustworthy.  It seems to me that staff will want good players playing demanding roles in the future and will find ways to see that capable players make their way into those roles.  Patience and maturity will help more than threats and accusations.

If some are DEMANDING Karma or I Quit! then... yeah. That's a problem. However, the general tone of this thread has been "I want to show that I am trustworthy, how can I do that if you shut down the only method I have of requesting a review?"

As some have mentioned, you CAN earn karma outside the official review, but staff have said in the past that sometimes things "slip by". That's what the Request Tool is FOR, so you can't just slip by.

So far as I can tell, people aren't demanding their first karma point. They're asking what they can do earn it, because following the rules would suggest they're not allowed to ask for it.

QuoteIf some are DEMANDING Karma or I Quit! then... yeah. That's a problem. However, the general tone of this thread has been "I want to show that I am trustworthy, how can I do that if you shut down the only method I have of requesting a review?"

If they demand karma or quit, then buh-bye is the only correct answer.  Sorry, you don't get to hold a game hostage under the claim it's a dying game.  It's ridiculous, an entitlement born completely out of context (sorry, there are people who have been around a lot longer and played a lot cooler things who didn't get the same things you're now -demanding-).

As far as the actual reasonable newer players, I still really think the special application process needs to go back to what it was.  None of the 'limitation' garbage that has been tacked on over time.  None of this 'You can only app for things within range of your karma.'  Go back to letting people play things they want insofar as it doesn't unbalance the IC game.

I'm not sure I understand why 'Oh, I need to communicate with staff first to get a character concept under discussion and flowing before I can apply' is such a heinous crime.  It's how some of us got our karma in the first place.  It's also how some of us played any of the 'super cool things' you want to play.  If that opens up, can people shut up about Karma already?

Perhaps. That IS how it worked in the past, but does not appear to be how it works currently. I did not earn Drovian karma when I played my Drovian special application, nor any karma from it. I either did not do a good job, or at the time I had not EARNED the trust of the staff to play that role more often. Which is fine. I'm terrible and I admit it.

However, a 0-karma player is likely to feel like they cannot apply for a special application, because they haven't even earned the 1 karma that shows staff have noticed them and felt they can handle a tougher role. I, for one, would like to see all special apps outside psi/sorc be opened to all players and the "committee" that determines if you get the role can decide if you've earned it.

Karma is about trust, and if you have 0 karma, does that mean you have 0 trust from staff in your ability to play a role? Or does it mean 'we want to see more'? At least with a Karma review, you can be told "We want to see more, but we're watching."

You can special app for roles when you don't have the karma, no? Even as a 0-karma player? Or maybe I'm just tired and I'm not getting it. :(

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on June 04, 2018, 04:14:24 PM
I thought that I was being pretty easy with the three years. The way people play directly affects the environment of the game. If a bunch of people who do not grasp the documentation are playing in roles that they really can't understand it sets the bar lower and lower - I've been watching that happen for years. One of the major things that make Armageddon great is the caliber of players that we have and the extremely high standards. We shouldn't continue to lower those standards just to make people feel included or to be nice - earn it.

I promise that if you follow the rules and play by the documentation you will be rewarded. Really.

Play the game, have fun, murder over a waterskin, hate elves, and steal boots! You'll get there!

While you have your point of view, let me offer an alternate point of view, IMO, having a rigid set of rules with zero flexibility, ie, no Karma because you're not a mindless adherant to the rules, does not endear someone to keep playing. Karma should not be used as a carrot which is tied in front of a donkey but never given.  Instead, IMO, again, Karma should be used as a stick to lower options if someone is not doing their thing.

I have RPd with some people who have posted frequently on here and they use RP as a means to beat other people down and emote force people into situations.  Also, people with good Karma who have been trusted with high roles frequently walk out after less than a week or a month RL but STILL keep their Karma levels and noone talks about it.  I think people should be trusted until they prove otherwise and punished if they don't maintain that level of 'trust'.

Quote from: Kankfly on June 05, 2018, 11:10:06 AM
You can special app for roles when you don't have the karma, no? Even as a 0-karma player? Or maybe I'm just tired and I'm not getting it. :(

You can app 1 karma higher.  So a 0 karma player couldn't app a halfgiant for example

Getting that first point of karma is about more than just having been logged into the game for X time.

The longevity karma is only awarded when someone understands the game world.  Stuff like:
* The place of elves, half-elves, dwarves, and so on - in the social hierarchy.
* Magick is scary and not a wonderful thing that your PC should gravitate towards as some miracle that they yearn to experience and be a part of.
* You should bow to templars, if you know what's good for you.
* What is the T'zai Byn?  Who is Tektolnes?  Where is Tuluk compared to Allanak?

They should also OOCly understand the game's mechanics, stuff like:
* If you are going by the alias "Smoke" then you should "addkeyword smoke" so that people can use it to reference you, codedly.
* Going outside is dangerous alone.
* Basic understanding of game commands - emoting, language, when to use and not use OOC.
* Familiar with the concept of the request tool, how and why to use it.

People learn these things at different rates. 

Case 1 - A new player has a friend who helps them learn all this stuff almost immediately, or they're just a fast learner.  They created their account a bit over six months ago, and have had four PCs.  The first two PCs died quickly in under a day played, but they found their stride with the third PC, joined the Byn and got promoted to First Trooper before being killed in a training accident at over 10 days played.  This PC demonstrated distrust of elves, and fear of magickers.  Now they've just started a special app slipknife PC, that they communicated with staff via the request tool to get.  This kind of player would be a shoe-in for a longevity point.

Case 2 - Someone created their account years ago but it's taken them this long to have a couple PCs with more than a day played on them, and their total playtime across all the PCs is less than 10 days played.  Maybe they even have more cumulative time, but fact is - they still don't know most of the above stuff.  In this case, they aren't ready for karma roles.  They just need more time or more commitment to learn.

Case 3 - Someone has been playing since 2010 but seems only motivated to grief other players.  They have a vast amount of playtime but continually abuse code mechanics in silly ways.  They're not getting any karma until if/when they clean up their act, even though they know all of the above and have plenty of playtime too.

In a nutshell, this is why there's some subjectivity to granting karma - we try our best to be fair about it, but of course it's not perfect.  Case 1 and 2 are very common.  Case 3 - well I can only think of one example, and it's definitely an outlier, but we definitely wouldn't want that guy playing roles with even more power.

Even still, people can special app for stuff outside their reach (while we wouldn't let a brand new player pick something beyond their understanding, someone in the grey area certainly could).

If this isn't enough, well - Arm isn't the game for everyone.  It *is* niche and it's going to stay that way.  At the zero karma level, there are a ton of options, and a wide variety of opportunities to roleplay different stuff - guilds and subguilds, races, locations, clans, and so on.

The point is, Seidhr, that while it IS a subjective thing to award karma, people are looking for a way to have themselves evaluated.

You can be as fair and balanced as Fox News if you want to, but if you have people who really feel they're ready, looking for feedback, why not have a system to do that?

It really engenders a sense of "you're not as important or interesting as this other player, because we gave them karma first". At least let someone ask for a review, and be told "Sorry not yet, but work on these things and you'll get there"

Quote from: seidhr on June 15, 2018, 02:13:47 AM
In a nutshell, this is why there's some subjectivity to granting karma - we try our best to be fair about it, but of course it's not perfect.  Case 1 and 2 are very common.  Case 3 - well I can only think of one example, and it's definitely an outlier, but we definitely wouldn't want that guy playing roles with even more power.

The question would be, do people that fit in Case 3 even know about this?  Is/was there feedback to them letting them know or is/are their cheese(s) hanging in the wind.? they unaware?

Then again, it's probbly me.

No Riev, I am specifically addressing the people who were saying that you should automatically get a point of karma when you are logged in for 10 (or whatever amount) days cumulatively.

I don't make the decisions here, but could it be possible to have Karma automatically granted for time served on the game and then removed if the person is found abusing?  This way, it takes away the entire argument of I can't get Karma if I am not being observed and I cannot be observed if noone pays attention to me.  Personally, after many years and some good roles, I just stopped really caring about it and accepted that I will probably never get it, so to me it's whatevs. I play because it alleviates my boredom here at work and I don't have any other option.  With the changeover to the new system, the 2 that I managed to achieve after many years is essentially useless as I am back to the drawing board.  It is this attrition that leads to a lot of players leaving and not returning though the game has newer and shinier things to offer.

Again, just my $0.02 on the subject, color me jaded

Neehhh, there's a much bigger pushback if your "earned" things are taken away. Even moreso than the push for "I want to earn them to begin with".

Being docked karma is much more visible as a punishment than not having earned the karma in the first place.

#BringBackKarma2018

When I first started playing Arm, I was very off-peak and didn't see many players. I did solo-RP and put in character reports about what I was up to and any concerns I had I just asked staff about in those reports. That led to some productive feedback about how to get engaged and taught me a lot. If something cool or funny happens, I clean up the log and include it too, so even if staff aren't around, they can share in the fun.

I know Karma is a goal for some people and the possibility of opening reviews to 0 Karma players might help with some frustrations, but even when reviews were open, it was a common discussion on the GDB about it. Karma and the roles that come with it don't somehow make Arm 'more' fun. Whatever role you play, at whatever karma, I feel like by focusing on living great stories and having the most fun in that moment, you can get more satisfaction than striving for an OOC goal. Search for a role that will engage you and you'll have fun with, repeat. Karma will happen.

Quote from: Riev on June 15, 2018, 11:22:17 AM
You can be as fair and balanced as Fox News if you want to, but if you have people who really feel they're ready, looking for feedback, why not have a system to do that?

It really engenders a sense of "you're not as important or interesting as this other player, because we gave them karma first". At least let someone ask for a review, and be told "Sorry not yet, but work on these things and you'll get there"

Exactly. Otherwise it comes of as discrimination.