Hi,
imagine you play a raider and are out in the desert, far far away from town and you find a lone grebber out there whom you would like to rob.
You approach the PC and tell him "hey you, look, I got this big sword, and I want your coins now".
In the current system the raider now often has a timing problem. It's easily possible for the grebber to way his friends and tell them something like "Hey, I'm getting robbed, right at the pillars where the way bends northwards, come quick" and then do a few OOC-minutes of RP with the raider, until his friends show up. (Which ICly wouldn't have been possible, since the IC way is miles and miles, but the OOC travel is just seconds)
How about the following mechanism:
new command: "blockpsi Amos"
result: It will be impossible for Amos to successfully use the way to send messages to anybody for five minutes, giving the raider the possibility to do some RP without the fear of getting busted.
Could maybe be optional and toggleable like the "nosave" commands, and should maybe give the raider back the information if the command was accepted and is active
No. Absolutely not.
You know who can manipulate the Unseen Way? A mindbender. A being so feared and powerful that it's put to death EVERYWHERE.
I like it for mindworms though.
I think it's great that you're thinking up fresh ideas for the game! This an idea that I do not feel fits in the current state of the game however as manipulation of the Way to that degree requires a bit of force that most characters outside of psionicists are incapable of.
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Or, alternatively, if using >contact while standing or mounted costs a factor of (say) 2 or 3 more stun than if you are sitting or resting, there would be a risk vs. the reward, since lowering your stun while someone is holding a hammer to your head might be quite unwise.
This could also easily fit into the current lore: you use concentration when waying, after all, so sitting down is probably advisable, at least for >contact. I'm not sure if each >psi should do this too, but it'd be kind of neat if it did --- say half of what contact does.
So for example (rough numbers):
While standing or mounted: >contact bob costs you 30 stun points; while seated it'd cost you 10 stun points; while resting it'd cost you 5.
While standing or mounted: >psi bob costs you 10 stun points; while seated it'd cost you 4; while resting it'd cost you 2.
More generally, I think the more general solution to this is to make waying cost you something, be it an hemote tell that you are waying (sweat drips down your brow, eyes go distal) or a bump in the stun points. Of course, we bumped everyone to 'master' so it'd be easier on new players, so an alternative implementation might be just to have the way 'harsher' when you are in an outside room and 'easier' when you are in an inside room.
I don't like the idea of making it a common psionic ability because it does feel a bit bendy, but there should be a way to keep people from Waying. Not just from Waying successfully, mind you, because those methods do exist, but from Waying at all.
Right now it's hard to imagine how anyone even manages to torture anyone else, because any Tom, Dick or Amos can just deliberately drain himself into unconsciousness using the Way. I know this is considered an abuse of code and is heavily discouraged at best, but in truth I can't think of a reason why in the lore this wouldn't be the case. Why on earth would a Zalanthan not repeatedly put up and tear down a mental barrier to keep herself from being conscious while she has her fingers cut off one by one?
There needs to be a poison (fairly common, I'd say) whose only function is to stifle all use of the Way, and it stifles it before you can even get the stun damage. That will be its only purpose. It probably either shouldn't work on actual psis--or perhaps have a severely reduced effect--to keep it from being a too-easy way to kill mindworms. This would solve a lot of problems with certain plots and open up new avenues to RP. This plus ways to physically bind and blindfold someone would have us all set.
This would be a good idea for a poison.
To be honest. I can imagine a skill to psionically block someone else from using the way. It is a complicated skill, not unlike expel and should be extremely taking. Let's say you can do this only when you're in the same room and the exertion gives off a clear and obvious echoes to the room. Like A person stares intently at person B, sweat dripping from his brow. With some major stun drain and potentially even an added delay to their every command if that's possible. This way it's possible for one person to focus entirely on making waying impossible for another person. But it takes all effort, all concentration, is considered a hostile act, and is very taxing.
Mindworms are feared for their ability to control you and read your thoughts and stuff. This is more of a brute force, mental subdue that anyone with enough will and fortitude could potentially do, to no great surprise of others.
Maybe it branches of expel. So everyone who got expel to advanced (hihhi) would branch it :D.
A poison would be interesting and fit into the current lore very well.
I'm still fairly new to the game, but being able to block somebody from using the Way seems very powerful, something that most people would not have the ability to do.
Quote from: Dar on April 20, 2018, 01:23:33 PM
STUFF +
Mindworms are feared for their ability to control you and read your thoughts and stuff. This is more of a brute force, mental subdue that anyone with enough will and fortitude could potentially do, to no great surprise of others.
Maybe it branches of expel. So everyone who got expel to advanced (hihhi) would branch it :D.
This suggested skill is barrier, pc specific barrier. This isn't brunt force, this is concentration to shield. The lay man can barrier already and its pretty powerful a skill as anyone who has been standing in the room with you and tried to get you while you're barriered can tell you. And that's a regular person!
I like this as a psion skill
blockpsi templar/lord/lady/aide/soldier and like barrier it'd be taxing and only good for a certain amount of time.
When mastered it could branch into being able to branch more than one person.
A poison? Meh... maybe unable to use the way but block people? Nah. Anything mindwise is psion to me.
There is poison that affects the way already.
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on April 20, 2018, 03:37:10 PM
There is poison that affects the way already.
Yes but it's not blocking a person and:
Quote from: mansa on April 20, 2018, 12:43:48 PM
This would be a good idea for a poison.
Yes, there is a poison that affects the Way, and drinking affects the Way, but I think there needs to be a poison that can keep people from even attempting well enough to lose stun. A lot of things don't make sense in Zalanthas if people can just pass out willingly at any time.
Things like this are and have been implemented, but not necessarily for the runofthemill raider.
The unseen way does not discriminate distance and connects you DIRECTLY to the other person's mind and it would be like you were talking with them face to face. It is highly possible that this is one of the reasons all the other races that did not evolve to have use of Psionics were killed off as they were far less capable.
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Why not make a poison that is almost literally just a 'drunkroot'. It makes the person increasingly drunk as long as the poison remains in their system. Some people take it recreationally, to get hammered. Some tricky son of a bitches use it in arrows, and then just wait 'til their foes end up trying to ride their mount fuckin' hammered, unable to even use the way.
Quote from: AdamBlue on April 21, 2018, 03:09:54 PM
Why not make a poison that is almost literally just a 'drunkroot'. It makes the person increasingly drunk as long as the poison remains in their system. Some people take it recreationally, to get hammered. Some tricky son of a bitches use it in arrows, and then just wait 'til their foes end up trying to ride their mount fuckin' hammered, unable to even use the way.
Decided to be less snarky, and give away less IC info in my response.
A poison already exists that has similar (and more detrimental) effects of drunkenness. It also prevents your target from Waying. If you want to prevent people from Psiing for reinforcements, figure out which one it is and have fun.
I think Adam's suggestion was different than that poison, their suggestion has other implications than simply not being able to Way someone, if you can inflict drunk on someone, they become all but useless in combat, they stumble around as the try to move and thus will have heaps of trouble trying to flee, and cant Way for reinforcements, which overall would be quite a potent poison. Very useful for a number of situations.
Quote from: ShaLeah on April 20, 2018, 08:00:21 AM
No. Absolutely not.
You know who can manipulate the Unseen Way? A mindbender. A being so feared and powerful that it's put to death EVERYWHERE.
I like it for mindworms though.
This is silly. And I hate hearing it as a lame reason to prevent some good changes.
Everyone already has some limited way-powers. Giving mundanes more tools to combat the ubiquitous psionic messaging service is not going to water down psionicists.
Being able to block someone from the way, using your barrier and being able to intercept psionic traffic should honestly be basic counters to what has always been a broken mechanic.
Quote from: tapas on April 23, 2018, 02:47:07 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on April 20, 2018, 08:00:21 AM
No. Absolutely not.
You know who can manipulate the Unseen Way? A mindbender. A being so feared and powerful that it's put to death EVERYWHERE.
I like it for mindworms though.
This is silly. And I hate hearing it as a lame reason to prevent some good changes.
Everyone already has some limited way-powers. Giving mundanes more tools to combat the ubiquitous psionic messaging service is not going to water down psionicists.
I don't want to be that guy, but it isn't a lame reason, and these aren't good changes.
The Way is an Unseen Force that humanoids have developed over HUNDREDS of years to be at the minimal level we are at. OOCly, we didn't even have Expel 10 years ago. This change is suggesting that you have the personal mastery over an unseen way to block someone else off entirely from it.
No. Psionicist is a guild. It is playable. It is a thing that has mastery over this Unsen Way. You do not. You ate uncooked meat yesterday because you were really hungry.
Quote from: Riev on April 23, 2018, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: tapas on April 23, 2018, 02:47:07 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on April 20, 2018, 08:00:21 AM
No. Absolutely not.
You know who can manipulate the Unseen Way? A mindbender. A being so feared and powerful that it's put to death EVERYWHERE.
I like it for mindworms though.
This is silly. And I hate hearing it as a lame reason to prevent some good changes.
Everyone already has some limited way-powers. Giving mundanes more tools to combat the ubiquitous psionic messaging service is not going to water down psionicists.
I don't want to be that guy, but it isn't a lame reason, and these aren't good changes.
The Way is an Unseen Force that humanoids have developed over HUNDREDS of years to be at the minimal level we are at. OOCly, we didn't even have Expel 10 years ago. This change is suggesting that you have the personal mastery over an unseen way to block someone else off entirely from it.
No. Psionicist is a guild. It is playable. It is a thing that has mastery over this Unsen Way. You do not. You ate uncooked meat yesterday because you were really hungry.
No it's a dumb reason that arbitrarily cleaves a distinction between one superhuman set of powers to another set of superhuman powers.
And I don't know how to explain it any other way. Having played several psionicists, I really just don't give a good god-damn what the in-text reasoning for this or that psionicism happens to be.
I just want some way to counter that fucking noble and their aide sitting there and plotting my demise right in front of my face.
This game is not one for "moves and countermoves" or for people to have balanced skills.
Also, please drop your "I've played several psionicists" a little harder, it didn't make enough of an impact.
There just is no reason, ICly, that people would have this ability. It doesn't add to the game, it just gives you a "leg up" on people plotting against you. Get over it, and let them plot.
Quote from: Riev on April 23, 2018, 03:09:46 PM
This game is not one for "moves and countermoves" or for people to have balanced skills.
Also, please drop your "I've played several psionicists" a little harder, it didn't make enough of an impact.
What? Did you not notice that we have skills and counters for skills in this game?
It would be like saying, you don't need a scan skill to get a "leg up" on players with the hide and sneak skill.
QuoteThere just is no reason, ICly, that people would have this ability.
There are plenty of mechanical reasons. And the IC reasons are vague and hand-wavy at the very best.
Again, though, if this were a game about fair and balanced classes. You're talking about a skill from a skillset that is the entire purview of a 3-karma, high powered class.
We don't have counters to fireballs. We don't have GOOD COUNTERS to arrows (parry and shield use are bullshit). We only JUST got counter to shields, which will only be available for specific classes eventually.
Why do you think you need a counter for the main method of distance communication? Why not suggest a gag command? Blindfold? Any other number of things?
or is it because you think that your PCs have enough of a link to this mysterious undocumented force that they can infiltrate and block off the minds of others?
Quote from: Riev on April 23, 2018, 03:29:42 PM
Why do you think you need a counter for the main method of distance communication?
Because this incredibly powerful ability allows me to communicate silently, thus rendering any attempts at observation, espionage or spy craft against me useless. It allows me to easily cross social divides (EG. a noble interfacing directly with 'rinth assassins) and language divides. And again, it allows me to literally plot without the person right next to me using watch and listen on me to have any earthly idea that I'm bringing someone over to kill him.
Quoteor is it because you think that your PCs have enough of a link to this mysterious undocumented force that they can infiltrate and block off the minds of others?
No it's because players routinely employ this mysterious undocumented force in ways that allow them to mitigate social risk. With zero to no consequence. If they can do that, I don't see why I can't find a way to reapply that risk.
Everytime the dude next to me wants to relay something in secret, they use the way. And I go "Fuck. I guess I need to play along with this stupid broken mechanic yet again."
Not only is the Way NOT secret, which you should well know, it IS designed to be way to mitigate social risk. Which is why people still are afraid to go into a Noble's Compound, or visit anyone of a GMH inside their own gates. We're all just risk averse at this point.
You could make the Way have an hemote when it is used. Then you'd know they're USING the Way, but I cannot understand the line in the sand that all humanoids should have the ability to invade and block off another person's mind. At all.
I do agree that it bridging language divides, and allowing nobles to talk directly to rag-wearing thieves is a bit of a struggle, but that's how it works. How it always has worked.
I just cannot agree with the addition of a skill to force someone to be cut off from the Mysterious and Unseen Force that is the Way. Not without being an actual coded Psionicist. It honestly, and not being snarky here, sounds like you had a bad date and you want us all to stop using Tinder.
Once again, no. It just annoys me that I need to continually tiptoe around that mechanic and assume everyone is texting beneath the table.
And it annoys me that the best reason for this status quo is because psionicists are the ones with the special sauce.
Quote from: Riev on April 23, 2018, 04:27:14 PM
It honestly, and not being snarky here, sounds like you had a bad date and you want us all to stop using Tinder.
Oh I've been annoyed by this mechanic for a long fucking time. I have old e-mails (from before the request tool) where staff were giving me a hard time for talking during a bardic recital instead of using The Way. I've always thought it was dumb and stupid.
What if the way and its mastery by non Psi's bleed a bit, like a radio transmission and everyone is a sort of reciever and there was a chance for bits and pieces to be picked up, randomly, and never a full, complete projection of whats being wayed without being the directed receiver. And maybe without a description of who is sending it or a partial description and never who is receiving. This might give a chance to disrupting plot attempts, escape from one situation or another and such.
Also what if the way degraded in its translated information the further away the links have to reach. Like the drunk code does now sort of. This would also allow for the feel of true distance in game reflecting the difficulty it might be to sort through this phantasmal essence we call the way which all minds are connected to and or through. I have never really liked that its like conversating with someone right next to you the same as across the known, I would like to think of it as having to stretch and there would be thinning in the link to the point that link would threaten to break and break when the distance is great. Or at least become leaky like a sieve.
Really not on board with this idea, for the reasons others have stated, but also because I think it would just become more power in the hands of antagonists. Rather than that noble and their aide being unable to plan your demise, it's going to be that noble and their aide taking their sweet, inept time to kill you while holding a pillow over the psionic part of brain.
It sounds like the real complaint here is not that non-psion PCs can't block, but that the Way is too powerful to begin with. Potaje's and others approaches to nerf it some would make the game more interesting, without increasing the power of things that y'all seem to think are already OP.
I like the idea of being able to catch random snatches of the way just from people using it around you. It definitely adds something to the game.
Riev, for the record, expel was put BACK in. We had expel, it went away, it came back....so, not much argument there, supposed to treat it like it never left.
Oh, I am against this idea or any like it where a non-bender can affect another persons use of the way. Currently, non-benders way skills are essentially involving own brain. and really only involving mind to mind contact. Making, breaking, blocking. No manipulation of others minds.