Going to post little tidbits about the new classes here. I'll leave the thread open a day or two after I post, then close until the next time. Please keep comments on topic to the last posted bit.
As with anything to do with the new classes, stuff is subject to change without notice, no warranty or guarantee is made or implied!
First bit:
Every class has at least one weapon skill. Yes, even Heavy Merchantile classes!
When you say that they all have at least one, are they capped at a reasonable level?
Depends what you think a reasonable level is.
Which class starts with the most $$$
Are the weapon skills featured different from the core four that warrior and ranger starts with? Will there be any weapon skills that are completely new (whip, claw)?
Quote from: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 11:59:55 PM
Please keep comments on topic to the last posted bit.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 18, 2018, 12:32:22 AM
Depends what you think a reasonable level is.
As in, will a merchant class in any way be able to challenge a heavy combat class in terms of pure skill?
Are "advanced" weapons still gated? Or will there still just be the basic 4? I worry that everyone having at least one weapon skill will lessen the effect of a heavy combat character having access to numerous weapon types.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 18, 2018, 01:29:09 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 11:59:55 PM
Please keep comments on topic to the last posted bit.
Is this in reference to me? I felt like my question was fairly in keeping with the topic of weapon skills within the new classes.
Narrow topic, not the category the topic is in. So yeah, not answering things about advanced weapons.
Quote from: Hauwke on April 18, 2018, 02:36:49 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 18, 2018, 12:32:22 AM
Depends what you think a reasonable level is.
As in, will a merchant class in any way be able to challenge a heavy combat class in terms of pure skill?
There are other factors that would go into that other than weapon skill, that make that sort of a hard question to answer.
Roundabout, lets say they are near burglars?
Works for me, thanks Brokkr.
Cool beans. Yeah, I've noticed that IG. I approve, it makes guild sniffing a little harder.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 18, 2018, 02:46:29 PM
Narrow topic, not the category the topic is in. So yeah, not answering things about advanced weapons.
Since you called out mine in particular, despite your topic being set to "weapon skills" and mine being directly related to that topic, I'll try and re-word.
If every main guild is getting at least one weapon skill, are those weapon skills the same 4 types we are used to seeing, or is there a possibility that we will be surprised?
At this point, it is just the 4.
Second bit:
We changes some things into what we are calling abilities. In the past, for instance, ranger wilderness quit was a bit of code tied directly to the ranger class. The way things work was rejiggered so that the code creating that capability is now tied to an ability. Abilities can then be applied to classes, in an easier way than before.
The current version of the class helpfiles list out (most of) the abilities that a class has.
Will there be any precedent for classes that don't have 'abilities' to earn them through lots of roleplayed practice and training from someone who has said ability?
Abilities attach at the class and subclass level, not at the character level.
What kind of abilities are we talking about? Aside from Wilderness Quit that is.
Race abilities?
That's all I hear that's truly worth hearing since...classes already -get- skillsets and you're literally in the process of developing them right now. XD
Quote from: Brokkr on April 21, 2018, 02:42:42 AM
not at the character level.
Brokkr is introducing character levels, confirmed.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 20, 2018, 07:02:26 PM
Second bit:
[...]
The current version of the class helpfiles list out (most of) the abilities that a class has.
Is the 'current version of the class helpfiles' player-facing at the moment? If so, where?
Play testers get the help file for the class they are going to play.
Abilities are a formalization of things that already exist, delineated out a bit more and done in a way that is more flexible. Things that were directly attached to classes, since we can't rely on that for the new classes. Being able to hitch two mounts. Ciity / wilderness sneak. Etc.
It makes a lot more sense. I was often getting the ranger class simply for grebbers interested in grebbing food, or burglar for hiding in taverns. Skills I had no real business throwing away my whole guild to have, and sometimes came with other skills that didn't make sense for me to have. If ranger quit were dependent on you say having journeyman bowhunting, then that would make more sense.
With a handful of exceptions, the new classes starting skill levels are higher in things they are able to get really good at.
This is based on the underlying number skill level, rather than the descriptive word you see, such that there is only a certain number, or less, of skill points between starting and max skill level for any skill.
We are trying out something for the new classes where riding with two hands full is dependent on more than simply getting to a certain level of ride skill.
Quote from: Brokkr on May 09, 2018, 06:50:48 PM
With a handful of exceptions, the new classes starting skill levels are higher in things they are able to get really good at.
This is based on the underlying number skill level, rather than the descriptive word you see, such that there is only a certain number, or less, of skill points between starting and max skill level for any skill.
This is GREAT. I've noticed that. Thief-subguild peek starts higher than Pickpocket-guild peek. Which is weird to me. Maybe this is an anomaly?
Anyway, the direction of the new system seems more... "intuitive" to the Armageddon experience. This is great news!
Brokkr: Did you know I check, every day, for progress? I actually have an icon on my cellphone that I click that brings me to the GDB to see if there are any changes. On Mondays I check twice: AM and PM.
That's how much I love this game.
I'd like to help, but I'm so new that staff doesn't yet trust me. I've been playing ultra responsibly with very challenging roles that demonstrate my understanding of the game, since 2017. It took less time to convince my wife to marry me and have a cute little baby! ;)
But it's still not enough to get trust to participate in these exciting experiments. Is there anyway for us untrustworthy players to participate?
QuoteThis is GREAT. I've noticed that. Thief-subguild peek starts higher than Pickpocket-guild peek. Which is weird to me. Maybe this is an anomaly?
Subguilds typically start with higher starting skills than current guilds by design, so that there is some small benefit to anyone picking the subguild.
The increased starting skill level I mention above will break this dynamic in some cases.
It is very hard for the guilds that can get it to branch weapon skills, polearms for example (if that is a weapons skill, I'm fairly sure it is.) This means under the current system almost no one can get good at polearms. Is this particular loophole being addressed?
Quote from: Cind on May 18, 2018, 03:04:50 AM
It is very hard for the guilds that can get it to branch weapon skills, polearms for example (if that is a weapons skill, I'm fairly sure it is.) This means under the current system almost no one can get good at polearms. Is this particular loophole being addressed?
Pretty sure none of the new classes get advanced weapons.
The vagueness is getting old, please just post what it is so we may all have a good day.
Don't be rude, frank.
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 21, 2018, 01:26:08 AM
Don't be rude, frank.
Trying to get to the point, nothing rude about it.
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 20, 2018, 10:23:18 PM
The vagueness is getting old, please just post what it is so we may all have a good day.
These are hints, not explanations.
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 21, 2018, 11:37:50 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 21, 2018, 01:26:08 AM
Don't be rude, frank.
Trying to get to the point, nothing rude about it.
The brusque and somewhat insulting manner in which you made a request for straightforwardness was the rudeness in question, not the desire of your request.
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 21, 2018, 11:41:05 AM
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 21, 2018, 11:37:50 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 21, 2018, 01:26:08 AM
Don't be rude, frank.
Trying to get to the point, nothing rude about it.
The brusque and somewhat insulting manner in which you made a request for straightforwardness was the rudeness in question, not the desire of your request.
Take it how you will and word it how you will so people can see that you have some measure of intelligence, that still does not invalidate my intent, then again, last I checked, I don't need to explain myself to you. I will not respond further to this, so feel free to have your last word.
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 21, 2018, 12:39:53 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 21, 2018, 11:41:05 AM
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 21, 2018, 11:37:50 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 21, 2018, 01:26:08 AM
Don't be rude, frank.
Trying to get to the point, nothing rude about it.
The brusque and somewhat insulting manner in which you made a request for straightforwardness was the rudeness in question, not the desire of your request.
Take it how you will and word it how you will so people can see that you have some measure of intelligence, that still does not invalidate my intent, then again, last I checked, I don't need to explain myself to you. I will not respond further to this, so feel free to have your last word.
I want to play new classes and have an exciting competent character that I don't need to twink in order to be useful.
Last word. Boom! (Though I have nothing to do with the argument, which is stupid.)
#givemekarma to play one of these guilds.
I think the innovation here is really exciting but I'd love to see the archetypes of Ranger, Warrior, Assassin and Burglar remain as they are and simply add the new classes around them. Giving players the ability to play a pure archetype should they choose it in addition to options like the new classes that balance multiple abilities and skills.
To me that would add the most options for player customization while maintaining a familiar foundation to the genre.
p.s. the pure mage archetype would be one I hope returns as well.
Although I admit to not really seeing the innovation. I otherwise totally agree with Vox.
Quote from: Vox on May 22, 2018, 01:53:02 AM
I think the innovation here is really exciting but I'd love to see the archetypes of Ranger, Warrior, Assassin and Burglar remain as they are and simply add the new classes around them. Giving players the ability to play a pure archetype should they choose it in addition to options like the new classes that balance multiple abilities and skills.
Not to derail the thread (I'll make just this one post), but Ranger (especially) and Assassin seem to be very much not "pure archetypes", to me. The opposite, in fact. They're very broad skillsets with few (if any) glaring omissions in their chosen environment.
As far as the new classes balancing multiple abilities and skills as a point of contrast, Ranger balances so many abilities and skills that it's become a meme in the community.
I know there's strong feelings about losing character options that have been in the game a long time. Players that have played a long time and have learned how to eke every drop of coded progression out of existing classes (like X-D) will be especially sad to see them go. No one likes to have to have their knowledge (or comfort level with a class) become obsolete.
But let's not let cherishing the old, simply for familiarity's sake, get in the way of progress. Now, some people are saying, "progress? But I want to keep the guilds we already have. How is it progress to lose what's already well-designed?"
Are the current guilds well-designed, though? Many people will have different opinions here, but I'm pretty confident in saying that the current guild balance is objectively poor. Branching in particular is often very strange and kills certain guilds unless they pick certain subguilds. Pickpockets and Burglars have some bizarre choices built into them, and I'm glad to see them go. It's close to consensus in the community that Rangers are overpowered compared to the other guilds. I could go on.
It seems very likely to me that keeping current Ranger and Assassin in the pool with the new guilds would recreate some of the same problems with class balance we have now, where most options simply aren't worth picking when compared to the top tier. Why pick a "jack of all trades" new class when you can just pick Ranger/ext. subguild of choice, and get practically every skill?
I think the game will be better served if the playerbase can get away from equating "familiar" with "well-designed" or "good for the game." Many coded aspects of Armageddon, and their implementations, are in the game because that's how someone designed them over a decade ago. Not because they are done well. There's a lot of room for improvement, and we should be willing to try new things in hope of realizing it.
That said, I do think there should be, in general, more adding of new content and choices, than removing them. Hopefully we see more new things coming down the pipe. Looking forward to the new guilds.
Ranger is the "meme" for the exact reason why people don't want it to go away: it possesses pretty much everything a character who plans on leaving the city walls would need to survive. They can even thrive, without any skills from any other skillset. They can even succeed and "win" the game, without any other skills from any other skillset - though it takes a lot of work, effort, time, and a heavy dose of luck.
By splitting up ranger, you split up the #1 class that allows a character to survive, without having to use a single subguild skill. This gives the ranger's player a multitude of options - ANY subguild they pick, will be a bonus to their main guild.
When you split them up, you NEED to be more careful about your choices. New players don't know what that consists of, even if the skill lists are spelled out clearly.
They don't know that "skills 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 14, and 15 really NEED to go together if you want your sub-ranger character to be survivable so make sure you pick any of the following combinations, or you're fucked if being a "ranger" is your choice for this PC's vocation."
With the ranger main guild, you know "ranger is the only thing you need for the above to be true. Pick a subguild so your ranger has something different to do to add some fluff or risk - perhaps a merchanting/crafting subguild, or a magick subguild."
I agree with Vox that the mage guilds should be reinstated, but as it appears that players, have absolutely no say in anything, this thread is good to at least present some ideas. That being said, clearly we have 2 options, deal with it and hope our wishes are heard or exit, since people are still willing to give it a go, I don't know what the outcome will be.
Now, as to the mage subguilds, if someone has the Karma to be a mage as a subguild (Yuck), rather than a main guild, why are they further nerfed so that they have no crafting skills to go along with it? It seems like a ripoff to be able to create water but can't craft a sword or shield.
Just my $0.02 on the direction of the classes.
It's not too late to reinstate the mage guilds as a regular guild, because as stated, mages were people first, but yes, those people didn't forget their crafts because they became a mage.
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 22, 2018, 11:31:49 AM
I agree with Vox that the mage guilds should be reinstated, but as it appears that players, have absolutely no say in anything, this thread is good to at least present some ideas. That being said, clearly we have 2 options, deal with it and hope our wishes are heard or exit, since people are still willing to give it a go, I don't know what the outcome will be.
Now, as to the mage subguilds, if someone has the Karma to be a mage as a subguild (Yuck), rather than a main guild, why are they further nerfed so that they have no crafting skills to go along with it? It seems like a ripoff to be able to create water but can't craft a sword or shield.
Just my $0.02 on the direction of the classes.
It's not too late to reinstate the mage guilds as a regular guild, because as stated, mages were people first, but yes, those people didn't forget their crafts because they became a mage.
You can, currently, still be a Merchant/Magicker and have all that crafting.
You can, in the future, be a heavy mercantile city-based character/magicker and still have all that crafting (though we don't know how much)
The crafting subguilds are there for NON-Merchant mains to have a master-level crafting skill for custom crafting. They are by no means necessary, but they mean you can't be a warrior, who casts spells, and can craft.
I have no idea where some of these ideas are coming from.
In an unrelated tidbit (or is it?):
Miscreant currently has all the skills a burlgar has. Except one.
Miscreant also currently has all the skills a pickpocket has. Except one.
Quote from: Brokkr on May 22, 2018, 12:07:27 PM
I have no idea where some of these ideas are coming from.
In an unrelated tidbit (or is it?):
Miscreant currently has all the skills a burlgar has. Except one.
Miscreant also currently has all the skills a pickpocket has. Except one.
Stop trying to seduce me with this amazing knowledge.
(I really wanna play a miscreant now tbh)
If you thought that was a sweet nothing that made you all warm and fuzzy inside...
Nearly all of the Miscreant skills cap at, or lower higher than pickpocket. Or burglar.
You say Miscreaant has "all but one" in an ominous way. Is there another Criminal-Based guild that gets this/these skills instead?
I have a guess as to what it might be, but I'm assuming it's not posted for a reason so I probably shouldn't be playing guessing games.
It's sneak.
It's pretty obvious. What's the difference between a thief and a killer?
Quote from: Brokkr on May 21, 2018, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 20, 2018, 10:23:18 PM
The vagueness is getting old, please just post what it is so we may all have a good day.
These are hints, not explanations.
Fair enough
Quote from: Delirium on May 23, 2018, 08:25:23 PM
It's pretty obvious. What's the difference between a thief and a killer?
Making delicious tea?
For those that missed Discord yesterday...
It's two combat skills.
They aren't particularly relevant to what a Miscreant does.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Or, since this is Zalanthas and we don't have chickens...
What came first, the pick skill or the pick making skill?
Don't worry, with the new classes, there are are options to go either way.