Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM

Title: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.


Discuss.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: cnemus on April 11, 2018, 10:02:17 PM
tl;dr Nooooo~oooooooo!

I would join a discussion about rebalancing stats, but removing a race [any race] entirely, no, no, no. If I want to kill Biggy the Big, or BigBuddy the Big-Friend, or BigClanBuddy the Clannie with BigFriends, I do not care. I will kill them or die trying. I love HG RP. Variety and race conflict is a vital part of the richness of the Armageddon landscape. I am lighting my pitchfork and chucking my melonkart at this thread.

I respect your opinion OP and do not think less of you for starting this riot, but I shall stand firmly against. Now and forever. Insert Gandalf meme.

#BringBackMantis

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: BadSkeelz on April 11, 2018, 10:07:14 PM
If it were up to me I would remove them. But I would want to see human-sized combatants get a bit of a boost to compensate, so long as we're still restricted to engaging dinosaurs with pointy sticks. That boost can be to combat ability or additional tools. The only role I really appreciate half-giants in is for being able to actually hurt a mekillot or other megafauna quickly in close-combat.

Otherwise they're just super-strong clowns when they're not just chosen for the stat boost. I wish they had stronger penalties, but they're too useful to discriminate against and it takes a LOT of player discipline to stick to their intelligence docs in the face of danger.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: boog on April 11, 2018, 10:10:16 PM
Muls kinda have the same issue. They're just used for their power. Sure, they can offer some conflict, moreso than half giants, but everyone knows they're recruited for their smashing abilities.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Large Hero on April 11, 2018, 10:16:25 PM
HGs would be balanced if more players RPed their low intelligence and likelihood to mess up complex instructions.

As it stands, many (not all, of course) HGs are played as cunning super-soldiers, decked out in precious gems and horror-plate, who will say a wrong word or fart sometimes, but never kill the wrong target or otherwise mess up when it counts. They limit their fuckups to comedy relief, because as BadSkeelz says, it takes a lot of discipline to do otherwise when the chips are down.

I'd like to see staff put out very clear expectations for the spectrum of HG intelligence. I don't think it's very clear at the moment. As it stands, some people play their HG as "can't do more than walk and talk at the same time" and some people play their HG as "only slightly less intelligent than a human".

For example, HGs in their help-file are said to have loyalties that shift very frequently, due to their low intelligence. However, in game, we have HGs staying loyal to the same people for several years.

I'm sensitive to the concept of removing yet more powerful options from players. I think we should try to enforce a stricter standard of HG intelligence, first, before removing them.

They're a 2 karma race now, out of 3 karma. Hold them to a high standard.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: BadSkeelz on April 11, 2018, 10:17:36 PM
Quote from: boog on April 11, 2018, 10:10:16 PM
Muls kinda have the same issue. They're just used for their power. Sure, they can offer some conflict, moreso than half giants, but everyone knows they're recruited for their smashing abilities.

I feel like muls are held to a much higher roleplay bar. Maybe the higher karma tier helps. I definitely feel that mul characters are a lot more dangerous and risky to be around. I've yet to run in to a disappointing mul.

The ultimate stat pick for cost-effectiveness and low burden of responsibility are dwarves.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on April 11, 2018, 10:20:57 PM
They are restricted behind a wall of karma, and they offer a lot of roleplay when done properly I feel, yes, you see them in combat clans almost exclusively, but that is because they are really not very well suited (mentally) to being a merchant or a doctor. If the gameworld can have loyal HGs in their armies, I dont see why the Byn cant keep a HG as well when thats what the character wants to do for that PC.

As for removing them, nope. If you did, people would just twink their humans further so that they can kill a mekillot, or just order an NPC HG to follow them around and be entirely loyal, unfeeling murder-hobos.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Molten Heart on April 11, 2018, 10:21:25 PM
.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Eyeball on April 11, 2018, 10:36:14 PM
There should be a rule, that if proposing to remove something from the game, should have to propose something be added at the same time.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: CodeMaster on April 11, 2018, 10:43:52 PM
There's a potential for unique roleplay with half-giants and I'd be sad if they went.  But I agree with Large Hero - I think their limitations are underplayed.  Remember Sanvean's story, the templar's sons?

As a half-giant player I'd try to dig deep and think about situations that should be catastrophic (or a "serious detriment" to quote the help file) for my character and his friends:
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: CodeMaster on April 11, 2018, 10:49:57 PM
Also, to add:

Quote from: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
HG loyalists

This is the problem.  Really there's no such thing, or there shouldn't be
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Grapes on April 11, 2018, 10:56:56 PM
I have yet to be dissappointed by a mul. They tend to be very well and thoughtfully played.

HGs though, have, MASSIVE strength, and while we've all, at some point or other, run into a big buddy we love playing with, few may realize the dark side of the equation. Have you ever accidently pissed off a HG that will never forget? And then, you're that one guy, and not only do they have super-strength, but they have friends all over the place who they've already told that you're a bad guy.

I played ONE HG, I don't think I did it exactly right, try as hard as I might... and even when I tried to do stupid things to get out of the role, 9/10 my PC was damn near invulnerable. I enjoyed the PC but the RP constraints were near intolerable, and no matter how you play a HG, everyone is going to think you're somehow "too smart". It's a very difficult role. I would prefer they not be removed from play, but scaled back to Dark Sun HGs, that would be easier for people to play, and not have the absolutely colossal strength factor, though I agree if such adjustments are made, then other humanoid PCs should get a boost to compensate for the lack of overall unit strength.

My opinion? It is far too hard to play HGs as documented. You might try one, and realize just how incredibly difficult it can be to keep up with everyone else's expectations. My IC stance has always been that, they are not "big friends", that they are giant monsters, and are barely tolerated. If they act out, they get put down, except, no one else plays along with my expectations so the point is unfounded. At least with Dark Sun guidelines, HGs are still able to function somewhat like people. Under Arm guidelines, it's like choosing Drill Sergeant as a career, it's a career ending job.

ETA: When I DID manage to get my HG killed, I got slapped for karma, I checked my account notes, a lot of people said a lot of mean things when, all I was trying to do was to help people have fun. What I learned from all that is, it wasn't the role for me.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Dar on April 11, 2018, 11:00:45 PM
While I totally Loathe HGs and havent played a single one, after trying it out once many years ago. I severely disagree with a notion of their removal. They play an integral part in the game's society and ability for combat clans to function. It's true, sometimes it feels jarring when an HG displays intelligence well beyond that of an HG. But in the end, their main 'shtick' about RP is not the complete idiocy. But the complete inability to run complicated thought processes. They are followers and minions, not leaders. Some clans though 'require' HGs to be operational, when they're not stuffed to the brim with other long lived characters.

What I 'would' do crack down on is independent HGs. Basically. Right now, if a sorc/psi is in play, but hasnt been using their non-mundane abilities for too long, the staff would address this. Why play a super dangerous role, when you're not playing the super dangerous sides of it.  I would suggest the same thing of HGs. If an HG stays independent and without 'someone' to latch on and take motivation/leadership from, they should eventually be stored. But if an HG does find someone who could sway them into their wake, then they're fine.

HG loyalists. I can imagine those, as long as they're loyal to people. To specific characters instead of clans, or doctrines. Though things get difficult with AoD/Legion, since their service is a lifesworn one.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Large Hero on April 11, 2018, 11:03:33 PM
Quote from: Dar on April 11, 2018, 11:00:45 PM

HG loyalists. I can imagine those, as long as they're loyal to people. To specific characters instead of clans, or doctrines. Though things get difficult with AoD/Legion, since their service is a lifesworn one.

I don't think the helpfile jives with this interpretation.

And yes, it's true that the AoD half-giant NPCs go against the helpfile, too.

Which is why I think the problem is that players are confused about how intelligent and loyal half-giants can be, or are supposed to be.

I think it would be a great help if staff put out a very clear set of guidelines for that.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 11, 2018, 11:34:35 PM
If a horrible plague rolled through the Known killing off all half-giants (or severely reducing their numbers to relative rarity) I wouldn't shed a tear. I think it could be an interesting change that would require a reshuffling of power in the citystates.

To clarify, I would like to see far fewer half-giant NPCs. I have mext to no issue with the PCs and staff animations however. I do think that there are alternatives to the "required HG" for any big game hunting trip like dwarves, muls, gickers (if you're desperate).
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Dar on April 11, 2018, 11:35:30 PM
Quote from: Large Hero on April 11, 2018, 11:03:33 PM
Quote from: Dar on April 11, 2018, 11:00:45 PM

HG loyalists. I can imagine those, as long as they're loyal to people. To specific characters instead of clans, or doctrines. Though things get difficult with AoD/Legion, since their service is a lifesworn one.

I don't think the helpfile jives with this interpretation.

It jives with psychology of the curious, unintelligent children that lack critical thinking.  Children get attached. Sometimes fiercely. Sometimes less so. It all depends on the strength of personality. You can imagine an HG wondering away from a clan, because the leadership is weak and simply does not provide the content/interaction an unintelligent curious HG would need to keep involved. So they get attracted by whatever else that 'is' involving. But if the leader involves the HG heavily, they can win the loyalty of the HG proper. 

Onr shouldnt think that an HG is playing incorrectly, just because one offered him cake and he didnt suddenly switch clans. 
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Large Hero on April 11, 2018, 11:55:58 PM
Quote from: Dar on April 11, 2018, 11:35:30 PM
It jives with psychology of the curious, unintelligent children that lack critical thinking.  Children get attached. Sometimes fiercely. Sometimes less so. It all depends on the strength of personality. You can imagine an HG wondering away from a clan, because the leadership is weak and simply does not provide the content/interaction an unintelligent curious HG would need to keep involved. So they get attracted by whatever else that 'is' involving. But if the leader involves the HG heavily, they can win the loyalty of the HG proper. 

Onr shouldnt think that an HG is playing incorrectly, just because one offered him cake and he didnt suddenly switch clans.

I don't necessarily disagree with your statements, but the problem is they are basically just your opinions. Players often have different opinions on what is 'good' or 'correct' roleplay. An issue with half-giants is that players seem to be interpreting an appropriate spectrum of roleplay in wildly different ways, and I think that's what contributes to the rise of a thread like this one.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Kankfly on April 12, 2018, 12:02:43 AM
I don't agree with removing anything from play unless it's as a very last, unfixable resort.

I think if something is wrong with either the play, the docs, etc. Then what should be done is to find ways to fix it: Either to tweak the docs to add more playability, flesh out some guidelines so everyone understands the mindset (in this case, a half-giant's), or, as players, strive to become better at it - after all, practice makes perfect.

I am, and I have always been, pro-more contents. Removing something from the game in order to 'fix' it has always been silly in my mind.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on April 12, 2018, 12:55:42 AM
Whether true or imagined, the game suffers from a reputation of removing too much content. I'm totally shocked you would recommend removing one of the game's core foundations, in this case half-giants. And purely because, what? Many clans covet them since they're powerful? Should we remove weapons next?

Where does this obsession with equalizing everything in game so that every single PC is on equal footing with the other come from?

It reminds me of the time Ath proposed nobles and templars only being allowed 6 months to play their role, completely looking past the fact that 6 months isn't even enough time for most sponsored roles to accomplish a single goal. Look, guys. Some things in game are more powerful than others. A hierarchy makes things more interesting and fun, not less.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Namino on April 12, 2018, 01:32:49 AM
The issue with Half Giants is that the benefits of the race are hard-coded into them. Their enormous strength, stamina, HP pool, the benefits of being really big on stride length and bashing, ect.

The limitations of the race are not hard coded into them, to my knowledge. Their skill caps are just as high. The main drawback for all those phenomenal coded strength is that you have to be mentally stunted, which is handled almost entirely through roleplay.

This gets dangerously close to 'Roleplay Police' territory, but when you get massive tangible gains for the cost of restricted RP, then someone does have to police to make sure you adhere to those restrictions, otherwise you're just doing the cafeteria thing where you take all the benefits and leave the rest.

I don't see this about HG loyalists as much as I do about HG drawbacks being on an honor system when the benefits are assured.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Potaje on April 12, 2018, 02:28:22 AM
I have never experience Half giants being anymore op than any other race. I have as other races beaten down well trained and long lived H.G's.  Having played H.G's they are codedly not smart, which goes into a conversation about code that is frowned upon so I will not elaborate. But they have just as high a contrition as any other race in the world of Z. There is no real reason to remove them from game play. As for Role play, its a karma race for a reason, you have to prove you can rp at least at a moderate level. I believe more in self policing than I do removing something from game because someone feels others can not rp a race, which in my opinion is often the case for all races, especially dwarves.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Grapes on April 12, 2018, 04:02:00 AM
EDIT: Deleted to remove snark.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: seidhr on April 12, 2018, 04:58:16 AM
You can make an argument that any role that has documentation should be removed because (some) people play them terribly, per the docs.

Yes, there are absolutely HGs that are not played according to docs.
Yes, there are absolutely dwarves that are not played according to the docs.
Yes, there are absolutely elves (of both varieties) that are not played according to the docs.
Magickers?  Check.
Half-elves?  Check.
Human tribals?  Yup.
Muls too.

I'm sure there are more.  I think half-giants are just the most obvious, because they are so glaringly powerful.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Cind on April 12, 2018, 05:41:28 AM
Trying to play a dwarf merchant with above average wisdom was bad enough. I don't blame 99% of half-giants for going into combat-heavy roles.

I thought maybe removing half-giants was a good idea before I read this thread, but at this rate in a few years we'll only be able to play humans. Even the elf docs, dwarf and half-elf docs have tidbits and brief mentions in them that are worth reading before you play one, even if you've been playing for years. For example, an elf would not think of stealing from their own tribe and do not know what disloyalty is. You cannot try to frighten a dwarf into doing something they otherwise would not. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Is Friday on April 12, 2018, 06:08:28 AM
Quote from: seidhr on April 12, 2018, 04:58:16 AM
You can make an argument that any role that has documentation should be removed because (some) people play them terribly, per the docs.

Yes, there are absolutely HGs that are not played according to docs.
Yes, there are absolutely dwarves that are not played according to the docs.
Yes, there are absolutely elves (of both varieties) that are not played according to the docs.
Magickers?  Check.
Half-elves?  Check.
Human tribals?  Yup.
Muls too.

I'm sure there are more.  I think half-giants are just the most obvious, because they are so glaringly powerful.
I don't think that's my suggestion (or the rationale behind it,) although that's stated above by other posters.

I don't believe they add anything to politics, military clans, or anywhere else that couldn't be done better or in a more interesting way by humanoid PCs. And they take away options from the dynamics of such by their existence.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Nao on April 12, 2018, 06:33:35 AM
Well-played half-giants annoy me on an OOC level. But do I want to remove them from the game? Hell no. If there is not enough variety in game, we should add more options (like the missing magick elements that have been removed), not remove existing ones.

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: nauta on April 12, 2018, 07:56:26 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.


Discuss.

Worries about how HG's fit in the world are as old as the gdb itself:

http://www.armageddon.org/HyperNews/get/general-archive1996/10.html

I'll echo the sentiment that HGs should be played as about as reliable as a child with low intelligence, as the docs dictate. 

The other side of the documentation is that non-half giants PCs (especially leadership PCs, who bear some responsibility for reinforcing the world to new players) should not treat half-giants as reliable!  Just like with an elf that isn't acting slimy, you still treat them as slimy, so too an HG that isn't acting dumb. 

This solves the problem OP is describing: Salarr and Kadius should NOT be getting into bidding wars for the local HG muscle!  People would not feel more safe with an HG in their crew -- in fact, they might groan.  Great, Sarge brought Big Bigs along, now the trip is going to take twice as long... In my view, the AOD Sarge in charge of the HG unit just pulled the short straw, and a noble or templar wandering around with an HG crew gets snickers from their fellow nobles and templars.

Finally, I'll just pitch my idea for the following RNG on a HG rolled each square:

1-4: Do nothing.
5: Sit down.
6: Stop moving.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Suhuy on April 12, 2018, 08:05:10 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on April 12, 2018, 06:08:28 AM
I don't believe they add anything to politics, military clans, or anywhere else that couldn't be done better or in a more interesting way by humanoid PCs. And they take away options from the dynamics of such by their existence.

Half-giants are powerful. Power is part and parcel of the political realm. Without power, you have no politics. Though a half-giant might not be heavily involved in political decisions, they can and have been used to further political agendas all the time.

And even if your points to remove them were all 100% valid, after everything the game has gone through over the past several years is removing more content really worth it to you? Imagine the storm you'd be creating? Thank you, no.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Refugee on April 12, 2018, 08:29:21 AM
Man.

While I have seen a lot of half-giants who seem just regular human beings in huge powerful bodies, my Arm experience would be filled with a lot less laughter and warmth if I had never had the chance to befriend Albie, or Seek, or Ellar. 

I would hate to see the half-giants gone.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Lizzie on April 12, 2018, 11:55:12 AM
Quote from: Refugee on April 12, 2018, 08:29:21 AM
Man.

While I have seen a lot of half-giants who seem just regular human beings in huge powerful bodies, my Arm experience would be filled with a lot less laughter and warmth if I had never had the chance to befriend Albie, or Seek, or Ellar. 

I would hate to see the half-giants gone.

...or Boots. His whispers were legendary.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Malken on April 12, 2018, 01:31:31 PM
I always try my super crazy best to not have to rp with half-giants. It just annoys me tremendously no matter how well played or not they might be.

But I don't know, I'm in the add stuff instead of removing stuff camp.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Armaddict on April 12, 2018, 01:49:39 PM
Just kill 'em if they're too loyal and stop letting them live long enough to get buff unless they show they can be manipulated.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: lostinspace on April 12, 2018, 01:55:06 PM
Yup, round up a mob and put them down. Takes a good few to make it happen, but it's doable.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Riev on April 12, 2018, 02:05:48 PM
I've enjoyed some of the half-giants I've been around. THEIR RP aside, though, I think the childlike wonder and simple-mindedness makes them endearing to us as PLAYERS and it makes it difficult to fathom killing them just for "being strong". And when you set it up that the strongest, most naturally damage-resistant characters are typically at odds with the weakest, lankiest characters... well. You WOULD need a dozen elves trying to kill one HG and ... really. Why would they? One swing and three of them are dead.

To me, the issue revolves around "Who DOESN'T want a super strong HG on their side?". If you can get someone that can fight spiders, and fend off melee gith attacks with relative ease, of course you want them on your side. Even if it unbalances the encounters, people naturally assume they make up for it in "winnability".

I wouldn't say remove them. I like that they're being monitored for how many are in game at any one time. I don't think removing them as a playable option fixes anything, though.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: WarriorPoet on April 12, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
To me the players that CRUSH IT on the roleplay side more than make up for the occasional turd in the punchbowl. By and large they are well played.

Leave 'em alone.

I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Namino on April 12, 2018, 02:43:50 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on April 12, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

To be clear, I do not want HGs removed at all. I do wish there was better policing of their RP.  Maybe staff does this and players ignore the criticism, given how many hyper competent HGs I see.

When I see a perceptive HG who relegates their stupid side to simple comic relief or word misuse while simultaneously being able to locate any herb or animal in the Known with zero assistance, know how to count large quantities of coin, and remember pivotal pieces of niche information for survival and social reasons, it irks me. There. I said it. I'm irked. Their stupidity is only played out when it's inconsequential and functionally they remain competent. I'm sure there are HGs that do not fit this trope, but they appear to be way in the minority to me.

It's as jarring to me as if a Mul found a female PC to rp pregnancy and spent all their time emoting about their six npc miracle quarter mul children. I can't imagine that mul PC would not attract staff ire up to and including storage.

So what's the deal?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Delirium on April 12, 2018, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on April 12, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Don't get me started on seeing half-giants sit around punching raptors just to work up their defense/offense.

Employing a half-giant should raise the following question: "Am I prepared to babysit this monster?" Dealing with a half-giant should mean that you must speak very clearly and literally as if you were speaking to someone with no capability for subtleties, because you are. In a well-roleplayed world.

One of my favorite half-giant moments is when I said, "We'll keep a running inventory of <item>." *pause, glances at half-giant* "Don't actually run with <item>."

Because I knew that half-giant would literally pick up the items and run with them if I hadn't clarified that statement.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ShaLeah on April 12, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: Nao on April 12, 2018, 06:33:35 AM
Well-played half-giants annoy me on an OOC level.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Hm1vMiYhIedaM/giphy.gif


I'm against removal.
I'm for making them 3 karma and better adherence to documentation.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Akariel on April 12, 2018, 05:16:01 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1001232.html#msg1001232
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Eyeball on April 12, 2018, 06:06:54 PM
In the vein of adding instead of removing, why not make the kylori a playable race? Lower average agility, strength and endurance and wisdom than human kind, but they could fly! They'd have a communal aerie or two and their own concerns (protecting their young from predatory birds, for example).

Or have a bunch of sentient gas bag type creatures get blown over a mountain range and settle an area. Slow moving, permanently levitated, maybe depend on the wind to travel any great distance, tentacles dangle down to the ground and can anchor them, yet quite human in their personalities.

Something. Why do all races have to be humanoid (save for mantises which aren't playable currently). Wouldn't it be great to have some new flavor in the world?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 12, 2018, 08:20:48 PM
I see a lot of people afraid to see something that causes issues removed because they have already lost a lot. The relationship with chunks of the player base and staff (in this thread specifically) reminds me of an abused spouse who is afraid to talk about an issue because they think the baby will go out with the bathwater.

It seems like a lot of people would rather have a flawed race playable than open up the options for replacement because I think some level of trust was gone after we lost a city, half of the magickal elements, full sorcerers, and the ability to gain karma.

That's a pretty sad state of affairs.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Armaddict on April 12, 2018, 08:21:53 PM
Quote from: Akariel on April 12, 2018, 05:16:01 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1001232.html#msg1001232
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.

I support you in this course of action.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: CodeMaster on April 12, 2018, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: Akariel on April 12, 2018, 05:16:01 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1001232.html#msg1001232
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.

Years ago, 500 coins was a lot to spend on a resize - but now inflation has happened because of all the cool job scripts that have been added.  My random Armageddon thought: maybe tailoring/resizing costs are due for a bump?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on April 12, 2018, 09:03:39 PM
I propose a war between half-giants and the newly returned halflings.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Jozhole on April 12, 2018, 09:43:27 PM
I would like to see the peaks of half-giant power compressed to create a smaller dynamic range. Their power is only rivaled by the strongest magick classes. I wouldn't be sad to see them completely removed from the game though.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Armaddict on April 12, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
I'm not in favor of complete removal from the game.  I'm not in favor of them being less powerful.

As Akariel posted about, I'm in favor of things being sacrificed for that power.  I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

In a way, it's much the same way I feel about old mages; they were powerful, but their drawback was -strong- social stigma.  Once the playerbase started 'working around' the social stigma for the sake of inclusion (and some other things), the power became problematic.  Half-giants have a -strong- roleplay drawback that is hard for players to embrace, and is worked around, and the game setting itself kind of...works around it, which makes the power seem problematic.

As I've said for a long time.  Half-giants are often played for comedic relief, but otherwise the same.  Don't trust them with secrets.  Don't trust them without supervision.  Don't treat them like really strong things you send off to do things for you.  They should only 'work' in the military when attached at the hip with authority figures...you really shouldn't see them, ever, without a sergeant or templar around to dictate their actions.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: boog on April 12, 2018, 10:22:40 PM
Quote from: CodeMaster on April 12, 2018, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: Akariel on April 12, 2018, 05:16:01 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1001232.html#msg1001232
-Updated shooting bows/loading crossbows so there is a (small) chance to break them when the character is significantly stronger than the bow/crossbows pull value.  This is to encourage characters to seek out weapons that better match their character.

This is a subject that we have been, and will continue to look into further as time goes on. There are no plans at this time to remove half giants from play or the game world. I am personally in favor of adding coded limitations to counteract coded boons.

Years ago, 500 coins was a lot to spend on a resize - but now inflation has happened because of all the cool job scripts that have been added.  My random Armageddon thought: maybe tailoring/resizing costs are due for a bump?

The last time I played, I had an item tailored.

The tailor told me it was going to be 2432530597 coins. I think it's fixed. ;)

(It was bugged. Pwomise.)
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Brokkr on April 13, 2018, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: Delirium on April 12, 2018, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on April 12, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Feedback isn't always taken well.  Sometimes quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: MeTekillot on April 13, 2018, 08:37:33 AM
Half-giant plague that makes them Flowers for Algernon before killing them.

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: WarriorPoet on April 13, 2018, 08:44:03 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on April 13, 2018, 08:37:33 AM
Half-giant plague that makes them Flowers for Algernon before killing them.

A big-ass mekillot bites you, doing horrendous damage.

*record scratch and freeze frame*

Well, I pulled another Charlie Gordon...
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Riev on April 13, 2018, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 13, 2018, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: Delirium on April 12, 2018, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on April 12, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Feedback isn't always taken well.  Sometimes quite the opposite.

At the point they're 2 karma, or 1 karma and applying a level above, the assumption is that there is a level of trust between the player and staff. Finding people of any stripe who take criticism well is hard. Feedback depends on who is giving it, and why.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: The Lonely Hunter on April 13, 2018, 10:23:01 AM
After reading some of these posts I can't help but to wonder...why are people afraid to criticise if that criticism is called for? So what if they don't "take it well", maybe that is a perfect sign that they shouldn't be in roles that require that level of trust to adhere to and understand the documentation.

Muls, which also seem to be a topic, are (imo) the most interesting of PCs to play. Unfortunately many people just seem to play buff and bald humans and everyone is afraid to correct them.

If someone is doing something wrong, staff can tell them. If you think they are, send an email/request to staff. Actions are not corrected if people are afraid to correct them.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on April 13, 2018, 11:04:57 AM
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on April 13, 2018, 10:23:01 AM
After reading some of these posts I can't help but to wonder...why are people afraid to criticise if that criticism is called for? So what if they don't "take it well", maybe that is a perfect sign that they shouldn't be in roles that require that level of trust to adhere to and understand the documentation.

Muls, which also seem to be a topic, are (imo) the most interesting of PCs to play. Unfortunately many people just seem to play buff and bald humans and everyone is afraid to correct them.

If someone is doing something wrong, staff can tell them. If you think they are, send an email/request to staff. Actions are not corrected if people are afraid to correct them.

Some players just tend to gravitate towards negativity and are constantly on the look out for any opportunity to correct others. I think there are better ways to foster good RP and to nurture players in the right direction rather than filing complaints all the time. I'm sure they have their place, but the amount of times I see the phrase "send in a player complaint" on here is really worrisome.

I get what some posters are saying about half-giant RP sometimes being a little.. off. But I don't think that's the trend. On the contrary, most of the half-giant PCs I encounter seem to exhibit the following, almost to the point of being obnoxiously predicable:


I can't think of a single half-giant PC who didn't do any of the above. There may be other points they're missing, but if you're doing all of the above you're at least somewhat on track with half-giant RP. This needs to be recognized and praised before you hit them with "you suck you suck you suck".

I'd like to see either coded or ICly mandated changes that make life slightly (read: slightly) more difficult for half-giants. I was reading this (http://dfds.wikia.com/wiki/Half-Giants) Dark Sun wiki on half-giants a few months back and found the following points interesting:

QuoteHalf‐giants tend to damage objects and buildings around them through accidents of size alone. Some considerate half‐giants camp outside city walls to avoid causing too much damage, but the draw of a city's culture and the below average intellect of most half‐giants limits the number of half‐giants who do so.

Obviously you would need to carefully consider playability versus realism when implementing anything along the lines of the above (limits on rooms you can enter, objects breaking, etc), but there seems to me some potential there.

But look, if someone is doing something blatantly wrong, sure, yeah, I guess send in a report. That's not really my style, but you know.. feel free. It just astounds me that one poster can call for the compete removal of a race because 10% aren't playing up to their personal standard, and another whose sole contribution to the thread is "we should send in more player complaints because that's helpful for the MUD". How about we try to positively improve things rather than dismantle it to the ground every time we encounter something we don't like?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Delirium on April 13, 2018, 11:48:07 AM
Quote from: Riev on April 13, 2018, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 13, 2018, 12:16:04 AM
Quote from: Delirium on April 12, 2018, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on April 12, 2018, 02:27:48 PM
I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Feedback isn't always taken well.  Sometimes quite the opposite.

At the point they're 2 karma, or 1 karma and applying a level above, the assumption is that there is a level of trust between the player and staff. Finding people of any stripe who take criticism well is hard. Feedback depends on who is giving it, and why.

So long as it is constructive criticism and worded kindly (along with mentioning the things they did right) I don't see the problem. Letting issues continue unaddressed would be more of a problem to me. If they aren't willing to communicate constructively maybe they shouldn't have HG karma.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Riev on April 13, 2018, 11:54:03 AM
As a reminder:

Player Complaints are not "This guy sucks". It is, unfortunately, how staff have decided to word a category for "Please Investigate, something seemed off to me. See below."

Not every "Player Complaint" is, in fact, a complaint, but our only recourse to allow for someone who can see the "whole picture" to determine if they were being abusive or just needed some correction.

It could be worse. It could be the player you submitted an investigation ticket on, doing the investigation of their own character.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: nauta on April 13, 2018, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.


Discuss.

While discussion has meandered here and there, I took the proposal to be something like: Granted that all HGs are played exactly to specification, exactly in accord with the documentation, and also granted that we are also, leadership and what-not, interacting with HGs exactly to specification, exactly in accord with docs, are HGs as a playable race somehow problematic in terms of the game play?

So, for instance, here's something discussed before on discord.  Call it the problem of Big Numbers.  Imagine you are a DM and you made a cave for a party of six people, and all six people are roughly the same in strength and skills and the like.  Say they are all Value 5.  You populate this cave with, say, a dozen kobolds.  A dozen kobolds, you decided, would be a 'good' and 'smart' challenge for the party: if they don't work together, they might die, but likely they'll survive, with some damage, of a reasonable amount.  It'll be a fun challenge.

Now, toss into that mix of Value 5 PCs one PC who is Value 100.  This PC can just smoosh a million kobolds without even beating an eye.  What do you do as a DM?  You can load up a giant mekillot or two to make this more of a challenge.  But now the odds facing the group are less 'this is a challenge and smart play will get us out alive if we work together' and more: 'that PC better tank or I'm gonna die.'  Whereas before if a kobold or two got past the Value 5 tank, the others could take a few hits before the Tank PC recovered and rescued them.  But if that mekillot gets past the giant, then its just death.

So, to sum up, the problem with Big Numbers is that it make sit hard to find an adequate 'challenge' for a group of PCs (Bynners, etc.), that falls somewhere between "this was a breeze" and "this was a slaughter".

All that said, to counter any "don't take away things" worries, I would submit that if a race is taken away, two new races are added.  So leave those worries at the gate.

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on April 13, 2018, 12:17:56 PM
I don't disagree with you, Riev. It would be nice if there was a "feedback" option, rather than "player complaint". But let's all take our gloves off and be extremely frank with one another for a second...

For all the players who can't take constructive criticism very well (as Brokkr points out), there are a hundred others who can't deliver it well either.

Moreover, when the first (and only) solution you can think of is to file in a report, yeah, I'm a little suspicious of your ability to send it in a way that encourages better RP, rather than simply discourages and demotivates. I think there are solutions to this problem that could be employed long before we discuss sending in complaints/feedback/etc, let alone further removal of game content! Let's discuss implementing prompts that remind a half-giant what they are: chairs that codedly break, rooms that prompt you with "You manage to fit, but you have to duck the entire time you're here", and an occasional NPC that exhibits frustration with the sheer size of their visitor. Can we at least look into these things before we propose shrinking the game any further or occupying staff time with reports (negative, or for that matter positive)?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: valeria on April 13, 2018, 01:40:51 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.

Discuss.

Disagree.  I've seen a variety of HGs around since I started playing and I haven't noticed this as a problem.  Maybe give me a couple examples of them stifling conflict?  I can't think of a single instance I've had them stifle conflict for me.  I also have been in many, many clans and think it's a real stretch to say that all clans have HG loyalists or want then. 

This feels like a solution in search of a problem.  Have we moved to HGs on the player hate wheel?  I'll have to update my notes.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Potaje on April 13, 2018, 02:24:29 PM
Quote from: nauta on April 13, 2018, 12:16:12 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.


Discuss.

While discussion has meandered here and there, I took the proposal to be something like: Granted that all HGs are played exactly to specification, exactly in accord with the documentation, and also granted that we are also, leadership and what-not, interacting with HGs exactly to specification, exactly in accord with docs, are HGs as a playable race somehow problematic in terms of the game play?

So, for instance, here's something discussed before on discord.  Call it the problem of Big Numbers.  Imagine you are a DM and you made a cave for a party of six people, and all six people are roughly the same in strength and skills and the like.  Say they are all Value 5.  You populate this cave with, say, a dozen kobolds.  A dozen kobolds, you decided, would be a 'good' and 'smart' challenge for the party: if they don't work together, they might die, but likely they'll survive, with some damage, of a reasonable amount.  It'll be a fun challenge.

Now, toss into that mix of Value 5 PCs one PC who is Value 100.  This PC can just smoosh a million kobolds without even beating an eye.  What do you do as a DM?  You can load up a giant mekillot or two to make this more of a challenge.  But now the odds facing the group are less 'this is a challenge and smart play will get us out alive if we work together' and more: 'that PC better tank or I'm gonna die.'  Whereas before if a kobold or two got past the Value 5 tank, the others could take a few hits before the Tank PC recovered and rescued them.  But if that mekillot gets past the giant, then its just death.

So, to sum up, the problem with Big Numbers is that it make sit hard to find an adequate 'challenge' for a group of PCs (Bynners, etc.), that falls somewhere between "this was a breeze" and "this was a slaughter".

All that said, to counter any "don't take away things" worries, I would submit that if a race is taken away, two new races are added.  So leave those worries at the gate.


Funny things is, sure HG make a nice meat shield and if they can land a blow it can hurt, badly, however they are not immortal beings impervious to being killed by even the silliest of weak mobs. I have seen Hg die to a single stilt lizard because they were not able to land a single blow. I have seen none HG pc's take out an HG pc of decently lengthed life and training. I don't think they are in this regard game breaking.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Eyeball on April 13, 2018, 02:42:33 PM
Why not add a race of silt-dwellers? Spice up the Silt Sea.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Grapes on April 13, 2018, 08:05:42 PM
I've thought some while reading this thread, and it has occurred to me that there are some very good players who either have, or are playing HGs. On the outside, it can be difficult to view HG roleplay objectively... there are some very excellent HG PCs out there currently, and have been in the past, and I worry that some arguments may make certain players feel targetted. From personal experience, it is a very difficult role to play, this difficulty, and the resulting fallout, even if a player does it entirely correctly there will be complaints, is the main reason I would support any kind of change to either alter HG mentality and power, or to remove it entirely.

Comparing it to the challenge of playing a mul, which, I've not played a mul, but I've seen many very well-played muls, is like comparing apples to oranges. A mul comes with its own challenges, and, depending on the background and experience of the mul, can have some interesting parrallels with HGs, but the two are by no means very similar, beyond one is an escaped slave, so essentially a child when it comes to living free, and the other, will always be irredemably stupid, a HG will ALWAYS be childish, a mul can grow and adapt over time, and indeed, even become a fearsome leader, being naturally talented in a number of things that make a good leader.

tl;dr HG roleplay is very hard, and there will always be someone ready to criticize even if you're playing strictly by the docs. My issue is the situation seems to give rise to more problems than it solves. Also, Nauta raises a good point.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 13, 2018, 08:19:35 PM
Again, no real issues with HG role play primarily because I don't associate with them to often. I don't really understand how anyone could play one without the schtick wearing thin, but I feel the same way about merchants too, so I understand I'm not really a good litmus test for that.

My main issue is the ridiculous amount of insane strength character NPCs wandering the streets in Allanak. These NPCs just happen to be HG. If staff wanted to either make the races more mixed, reduce the numbers/fix the duplication, or cap off the HG soldier stat rolls to something more middling then I would be peachy keen. After all, crime is a part of the game. It should be difficult but not of polar difficulty nor without consequences. Sometimes you want to run from the soldiers due to your PCs station, race, values and getting instakilled (in any context) is awful game design IMO. Currently trying to break and run is akin to walking into a dark room that could be a death trap with zero warning signs before it and no way to check if it is ahead of time.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Veselka on April 14, 2018, 12:28:09 AM
I think Half Giants (like Great Danes) should have very short lifespans. Useful when they're in their prime, but more stupid, foolhardy, and unpredictable as they get older. That's the roll of the dice.

I don't have much of a problem with HG's. I see what Is Friday is saying, and I agree that they tend to make combat encounters especially boring. But there's ways around that (not including them on every combat mission) and they aren't infallible (I've seen half-giants get rekt by even well trained assassins). They're a pawn in the Izdari game, and sometimes, they're useful.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Cind on April 14, 2018, 05:42:08 AM
What about....

If we made the HG soldier npcs standing around in the cities less well-trained?

HGs are inherently very stupid and therefore must be hard to train, right?

You wouldn't even have to do it for all of them. But even I know that the soldier npcs are well-trained.

Varying the amount of training all the patrollers have would not be a bad idea if the work input wasn't too bad.

If it turns out badly, just raise a few stats on some of them closer to the original strength.

Let's be honest, you don't really need 50 HG npc soldiers with 5 year-trained stats. That mekillot that wrecked the bazaar a few years ago was unstoppable anyway, but everything else seems to die without quarter.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: tapas on April 15, 2018, 03:40:02 AM
Quote from: valeria on April 13, 2018, 01:40:51 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on April 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.

Discuss.

Disagree.  I've seen a variety of HGs around since I started playing and I haven't noticed this as a problem.  Maybe give me a couple examples of them stifling conflict?  I can't think of a single instance I've had them stifle conflict for me.  I also have been in many, many clans and think it's a real stretch to say that all clans have HG loyalists or want then. 

This feels like a solution in search of a problem.  Have we moved to HGs on the player hate wheel?  I'll have to update my notes.

I've seen half-giants on a rampage before. Back during the hand-bounty fuckery, you'd have them waiting one room north from the Scaen gates to just walk in and subdue you. It's about as stupid as you'd expect.

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: AdamBlue on April 17, 2018, 12:06:11 AM
There is nothing wrong with half-giants when a regular-ass human can literally knock one out in a fist-fight, you whining dipsticks.

I once played a half-giant acrobat who took great pleasure in climbing up buildings like godzilla then leaping down to scare the shit out of people walking out of the Gaj. I always echoed that it broke some cobblestones from the sheer impact.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Cind on April 17, 2018, 02:13:40 AM
I wish I'd seen that.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: JustAnotherGuy on April 17, 2018, 06:23:48 AM
I think HGs need to stay, but people need to call other players on crappy RP.

I think Muls are good also, one of my favorite races, but also I have seen some really shitty RP with them and people need to report others for crap RP.

If you think someone isn't playing something properly, report it.  Not our place to judge, that's staff's job... it's our job to inform them so they can investigate.

I also think Role Playing documentation can be expanded upon for races to help provide good examples of behaviors and actions.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on April 17, 2018, 10:07:29 AM
Wee-woo wee-woo wee-woo  Rp police here on the scene .

The boss walks in and says plainly, "Detective, we just discovered your name is not on the approved list, you're gonna go away a long time for this."
"Wait", the detective said, "I'm so close to cracking this half giant case."
"You don't have any proof!" says the boss
An observant person my notice the detective starts to tremble a little as he begins to speak, "I'm gonna get to the bottom of this, then, You can do what you want with me."

Before even awaiting a response the illegally named rp detective dives out of an open window...Tune in next week for more (dramatic pause) Rp Police!

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: The Warshaper on April 17, 2018, 04:59:57 PM
I think alot of folks are more annoyed by the HG's that solo hunt the entire known, lead groups across the sands, and are rarely seen as "vulnerable" to deceit.

I personally have played one HG. I put in for a special app, waited months, saw it was approved and began preparing mentally to try and put on my best effort to try and and portray these surprisingly complex creatures. After meeting a single PC in a tavern after commencing I wandered into an unsafe area (New starting city, #forevernoob) and died within a few hours played. I was crushed but was offered the option to make another HG, the daunting task of creating another background and try to have another go took to long after trying to come up with another concept and the option was removed. I wasn't even mad, HG's should make the player portraying them give pause to -every- thing they do, and how they react. They are completely alien and understanding how to play one within the docs takes mad skill. Some can pull it off, some can't.

For example the documentation mentioned that HG's can't even understand the concept of love in the roleplay doc.

" Half-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract. Nebulous concepts such as justice, love and honor are hard to truly grasp even for many of us - for a half-giant it may as well be impossible! A half-giant will have difficulty understanding anything that they couldn't physically wrap their hands around. This makes half-giants easier to control as slaves and other laborers, and because of this are often found among the ranks of soldiers. Perhaps due to their inability to see beyond their present situation, a half-giant is rarely an unhappy individual.

They are very easily tricked. They cannot think flexibly or with subtlety, they cannot grasp abstract concepts, and they are highly suggestible and trusting. All together, these things make half-giants very easy to manipulate. A half-giant does not attach any value to an item other than that which it seems to have at the moment, and the same goes for a friend. "

This is an incredibly high standard for folks to try and portray and each person who tries will face scrutiny, everyone has their own interpretation after reading the same game documentation. This isn't a flaw with the race, the documentation, or the interpretation of the reader, it's just that HG's are -very- hard to roleplay when you're just trying to enjoy your time playing a game with other nerds on the internet. Their playability as a character is like an iso role even if you're sitting in the Gaj with 10 other PC's. Players want to have fun and they want to feel powerful, HG's can offer that sensation but at the cost of literally being at the mercy of everyone around you is a terrifying concept when you consider the attachment and time investment on the average Arm character.

Removing them I feel would be heavy handed. Yes I feel there should be far fewer HG NPC's, and by that line of thinking should they have their requirements to play increased aswell after taking a look at the difficulty to play one and the coded benefits? Are there really to many PC HG's?

For discretion to this opinion, yes I'm not currently playing but when I play Arm I feel like the amount of time investment I should be able to offer to really enjoy it is just higher than what I can currently muster up between work/relationship atm. Just my two sid is all this is.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Insigne on April 19, 2018, 04:05:10 AM
Quote from: The Warshaper on April 17, 2018, 04:59:57 PM
...
+1. Lots of great points.

Here's my two cents: Players should be held at a higher standard with their portrayal of half-giants and other racial roles. They're setting the tone for their race and an example for newer players who are unfamiliar with the various races in Zalanthas.

No, I don't agree that half-giants stifle conflict. Definitely not in any way that should warrant their removal from play.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: stoicreader on April 27, 2018, 03:11:13 PM
Why not give some coded penalty to HG? Like a stamina penalty, they lose one stamina for every room they walk. You know, those tiny hearts and a big body get tired really fast.

And they get a stun bonus, but anything that costs stun costs tremendously more. Like psionics, listen, watch. I should see HG pass out regularly when using too much psionics.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: MarshallDFX on April 30, 2018, 03:21:55 PM
For the record, I'd be willing to try a hg moratorium.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Patuk on May 01, 2018, 12:22:33 AM
Ehhhhhh...

I don't like HGs. I think a lot of them are very poorly played, I think a lot of sponsored leaders go out of their way to grab a shiny bag o' strength points without ambition or leadership potential, I think the sheer amount of HG soldiers in Allanak is ridiculous... But I also think the game shouldn't be in the business of removing even more than it already has. A lot of people seem to enjoy them, and I think we should be hesitant to take that away.

So, if nothing else.. I think I'd prefer for bad HG RP to be punished, and good RP to be rewarded more. Sorry to hear some people dislike it, Brokkr, but it's also part of being on staff; if people don't want to be told off for doing a poor job at RPing a race, they can instead play humans. Humans that can join every clan and rise to great heights and be any guild and be magical or tribal or whatever else and offer you varied enough of an experience that if for whatever reason people find you unsuitable to being a giant, you'll have options left.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: TheWanderer on May 01, 2018, 01:39:20 AM
The primary issue here is most of you have never mudsexxed a half-giant. Once they've been disrobed and placed in an incredibly vulnerable state, a lot of players finally peel back the numerous layers of their seemingly mediocre character to reveal the much more complex individual beneath. You're then privy to the subtle intricacies of a far more nuanced, well-rounded giant, which in turn upends these pervading falsehoods. I suppose it further illustrates why you can't trust an ill-informed player opinion over staff opinion on most of these subjects. You people never know what the fuck you're going on about.

The fact that none of you seem to know this speaks volumes about the playerbase and its diminished ability to tell tales that venture beyond a shrinking comfort zone. It's disheartening, honestly.

"Art is bold, daring, controversial, and always risky." Maybe you'll grasp this simple concept one day and refrain from requesting the subtraction of another outlet in this game. Don't play prey to their simple-minded masquerade.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: stoicreader on May 01, 2018, 09:29:20 AM
That can't be a serious post. Lol
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Grapes on May 01, 2018, 11:25:51 AM
It helps if you read the post in the voice of the shopkeep from the comic book store in The Simpsons.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Sorry on May 01, 2018, 06:47:02 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/bNguGjm.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Scrumpkin on May 01, 2018, 07:55:32 PM
I have to say, that all-in-all, the player base is awesome, and I have always been pleasantly surprised by all/most half-giants on arm.  If a tad bit of realism comes into play, imagine a Half-Giant, towering over a Human  This Giant is going to have strength, it is going to be able to squish you.  Half-Giants can kill you, add it to your gameplay, accept it, and understand it.  Do you think a mac truck will have the same impact as a Ugo? 
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: frankjacoby on May 04, 2018, 02:23:14 PM
Let's stop removing things from the game and bring back the good old times.  It's horrible that someone can spend years RL and gain enough Karma (Another broken concept imo) and then, the option is removed in the name of change.  Change for the worst is still change, so what is actually accomplished?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Renenutet on May 04, 2018, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: TheWanderer on May 01, 2018, 01:39:20 AM
The primary issue here is most of you have never mudsexxed a half-giant. Once they've been disrobed and placed in an incredibly vulnerable state, a lot of players finally peel back the numerous layers of their seemingly mediocre character to reveal the much more complex individual beneath. You're then privy to the subtle intricacies of a far more nuanced, well-rounded giant, which in turn upends these pervading falsehoods. I suppose it further illustrates why you can't trust an ill-informed player opinion over staff opinion on most of these subjects. You people never know what the fuck you're going on about.

The fact that none of you seem to know this speaks volumes about the playerbase and its diminished ability to tell tales that venture beyond a shrinking comfort zone. It's disheartening, honestly.

"Art is bold, daring, controversial, and always risky." Maybe you'll grasp this simple concept one day and refrain from requesting the subtraction of another outlet in this game. Don't play prey to their simple-minded masquerade.

Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: boog on May 04, 2018, 11:37:24 PM
So it really is enjoyable for the human male to throw his hotdog down the half-giant hallway? Or is it just one way?

Is this deception because of the half-giant's supposed incapabilities?

Hm. How philosophical.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on May 05, 2018, 12:27:40 AM
My assumption is that its a metaphor, one for finding a way to let an emotionally stunted person let their guard down and reveal that their emotions are actually a thing deep down and that they are people and what have you.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Potaje on May 05, 2018, 03:15:03 AM
Quote from: boog on May 04, 2018, 11:37:24 PM
So it really is enjoyable for the human male to throw his hotdog down the half-giant hallway? Or is it just one way?

Is this deception because of the half-giant's supposed incapabilities?

Hm. How philosophical.

para phrased from predator:

Human tell his female giant while going down on her "Gee your @#%%^ is as big as a house",  'Gee your @#%%^ is as big as a house'
Female giant says to human, Why'd you say it twice?'
Human says 'I didn't.'
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: frankjacoby on May 08, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
Personally, I think fostering a culture of removal after removal after removal is detrimental to the health of any game.
Tuluk
Gypsies
Nerfing sorcerers
Nilazi
Magick classes

All the while things like the Atrium
Fales
Bureaucratic boosts
City RP

These things get a boost and I believe it is at the expense of the games and many formerly loyal players.  I am unsure why the game is going in this direction, but IMHO it is very negative.  Sorry if I go against the narrative of the majority of the players or staff, but honestly, I don't want to login to a game where I sit in a tavern and rp getting shaken down because I can't gut someone because of the crazy crime code that a game cop 50 rooms away instantly knows I am a criminal.  I also don't appreciate everything being stagnant on the outside of the cities and God forbid I am a desert elf and can't leave the area to interact with anyone.

All of these things can be rectified by removing restrictions that have been hampering the game as a whole and ensuring that people selected for roles over and over actually stick it out instead of bolting early, YET somehow, keep getting more and more roles. 

My $0.02
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on May 08, 2018, 12:39:28 PM
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 08, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
All the while things like the Atrium
Fales
Bureaucratic boosts
City RP

These things get a boost and I believe it is at the expense of the games and many formerly loyal players.

I agreed with you about removing content right up until you said the above.

How does the Atrium or Fale or anyone else get "boosts" exactly? If these clans are taking the limelight that's because they're proactive. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same with any other clan. Sign up (or app for a sponsored role), climb the ranks, and put your clan on the map by being active. If you don't like these clans conceptually, no problem. Are you ready for the solution? It's really unpredictable, I know: don't join them. There are plenty of other clans with very different concepts to choose from.

Removing more game content is quite possibly the absolute, number one worst thing you could do for the game at a time like this. Literally the worst thing short of shutting Arm down entirely. You and I are in total agreement there. Assigning blame on any single clan in this game (literally any one) and saying they are being given boosts somehow, sorry, I just don't see it. If Kurac is active and Salarr and Kadius are quiet, that's not Kurac's fault. Maybe Salarr and Kadius (in this hypothetical example) need to just step it up a notch. And maybe you could be that person to do it. Rather than hating on active clans, let's all get active ourselves. There's nothing bad about a little competition.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 08, 2018, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 08, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
Personally, I think fostering a culture of removal after removal after removal is detrimental to the health of any game.
Tuluk
Gypsies
Nerfing sorcerers
Nilazi
Magick classes

All the while things like the Atrium
Fales
Bureaucratic boosts
City RP

I actually find myself agreeing with this. Ghanima, it is a bit impossible to combat power that has become sort of a monopoly. When the most active and main bulk of the game reaches a certain point, where is the balance? I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, but I am curious. There seems to be a great contention against the political side (or at least Allanaki politics) of the game, any idea why that is?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 08, 2018, 06:14:32 PM
Maybe not impossible, but keep in mind that there are people who play this game extremely actively. They can pump so many counter measures into their play that the only thing that can stop them is meta-gaming players or staff intervention. I feel like I'm being pessimistic here but I'm just basing it off first-hand observation.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 08, 2018, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: TheWanderer on May 01, 2018, 01:39:20 AM
The primary issue here is most of you have never mudsexxed a half-giant. Once they've been disrobed and placed in an incredibly vulnerable state, a lot of players finally peel back the numerous layers of their seemingly mediocre character to reveal the much more complex individual beneath. You're then privy to the subtle intricacies of a far more nuanced, well-rounded giant, which in turn upends these pervading falsehoods. I suppose it further illustrates why you can't trust an ill-informed player opinion over staff opinion on most of these subjects. You people never know what the fuck you're going on about.

The fact that none of you seem to know this speaks volumes about the playerbase and its diminished ability to tell tales that venture beyond a shrinking comfort zone. It's disheartening, honestly.

"Art is bold, daring, controversial, and always risky." Maybe you'll grasp this simple concept one day and refrain from requesting the subtraction of another outlet in this game. Don't play prey to their simple-minded masquerade.

Also, I love this ;D
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on May 08, 2018, 06:19:17 PM
The various clans of the game, get boosts not because favoritism, but because they go to their staffer with an idea, they talk it out and organize stuff a month in advance, then get things done for them because they are civil and actually have expectations in line with what can be given. Awhile back I organized something and staff quite happily done animations and made things kickass for me with very little prompting.

In the time I have been here, the overall attitude toward city RP has been about the same to me. People stay in the city because they dont want to solo RP, or have to fight a scrab every 10 seconds. Sure, things have changed in terms of what sort of city RP goes on, but thats the fault of the players for changing that.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 08, 2018, 06:46:15 PM
Great point, but was it the fault of the players for getting rid of Tuluk and the Gypsies or nerfing sorcerers, Nilazi and the various other magick classes?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 08, 2018, 06:49:00 PM
Not that I'm arguing your point, I'm just mostly curious about your thoughts on some of the directions taken not made by the majority of players.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on May 08, 2018, 07:21:59 PM
I would say Tuluk has been the only major removal over the years. At least in my view anyway. The gypsy removal was before my time as far as I know. I am probably wrong though.

I also wouldnt say that magickers have been nerfed, they have been changed and in some ways made significantly stronger and in others made significantly weaker. I would say they have instead been balanced. A ranger Rukkian for example has the ability to go anywhere, and kill just about anything on their own dependant on which Rukkian they are.

Nerfing Sorcerers and removing Nilazi and drov sucks though I think. Sorcerers were meant to be significantly overpowered, they were meant to be able to kill anything with a wave of a hand and they cant quite do that now.

People need to stop viewing changes from what they like as nerfs, they are changes, try to view them as such instead of jumping to a negative view.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 08, 2018, 07:35:03 PM
For better or for worse changes, I agree. I don't mind the change but I do feel that full elementalists have no reason not to exist and the same goes for Drovians, Elkrosians, and Nilazi.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on May 08, 2018, 11:57:02 PM
Quote from: Strongheart on May 08, 2018, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 08, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
Personally, I think fostering a culture of removal after removal after removal is detrimental to the health of any game.
Tuluk
Gypsies
Nerfing sorcerers
Nilazi
Magick classes

All the while things like the Atrium
Fales
Bureaucratic boosts
City RP

I actually find myself agreeing with this. Ghanima, it is a bit impossible to combat power that has become sort of a monopoly. When the most active and main bulk of the game reaches a certain point, where is the balance?

What power are you trying to combat though? I don't get it. How is it that the game's most social oriented clans are suddenly seen as all powerful monopolies? You realize that you're talking about two clans that have no actual, physical power, right? Or were those just two random examples? I might be more sympathetic if you said the AoD or something like that (not because I think the AoD is too powerful but because they do have physical power, being a combat oriented clan). But seriously, of all the clans you are guys are afraid of and think are unfairly beating the system it's the clan that teaches people how to pour tea and another clan that sits around and sips tea? THOSE are the ones you think are outbalancing the system? Wow. Maybe I should go join them with my next character and get in on all the power they are stealing from the rest of the game world. I can't wait to play an Atrium student because then I'll be invincible and immune to murder, corruption, and betrayal, right? I'm going to be a superpower in my bisht and everyone will fear me. It's going to be so awesome.

Seriously, you guys are gonna have to talk specifics if you really want to make this case. What are bureaucratic boosts? What other boosts are there? I'm not saying they don't exist, I just don't see them from my angle. But like I said, maybe I should sign up for these clans and see for myself. And maybe then I'll get to play a character who isn't prone to being pkilled or on the receiving end of other nasty business.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: sprucebark on May 09, 2018, 12:11:49 AM
True or False

1) Some people play low strength / agility non HG warriors. Most people store or kill them off early on.

2) A half-giant with exceptional wisdom is a real thing.

3) Humans are playing in a world where mekillots exist and complaining about the ally that can help them slay the mekillot.

4) When a half-giant blatantly powergames it is more obvious and more annoying.

If all of the above are true then we should fix those things and only those things that are true. Small changes can add up to big changes.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on May 09, 2018, 12:13:48 AM
It's just kinda funny because this thread was about removing half-giants (who ARE physically powerful) and now it's turned into complains that the barbie doll clans are the ones that are outbalancing things. If that's your take, you guys must love that defilers and full elementalists were removed. We should remove rangers too. They have a monopoly on archery. Also Kadius because they have a monopoly on fine goods.

We should also change the game's setting. A harsh desert world filled with corrupt societies is unfair. Let's make it into a utopia where everyone gets their equal share and no person is above or below the other. That'll show them!
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Erythil on May 09, 2018, 03:24:41 AM
I am okay with removing half-giants but only if a new race replaces them.

Let me play a motherfucking kenku I will pay money.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: roughneck on May 09, 2018, 05:23:14 AM
If braxat were slightly more intelligent and domesticated, I think they'd a way cooler race to play than half-giants. Enslave the vast majority of them, a tribal remnant remaining in the wilds but always in fear of being hunted and captured by Allanak, while the domesticated braxat try to preserve pieces of their tribal culture as they're assimilated.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: frankjacoby on May 09, 2018, 11:20:49 AM
Quote from: ghanima on May 08, 2018, 12:39:28 PM
Quote from: frankjacoby on May 08, 2018, 11:37:25 AM
All the while things like the Atrium
Fales
Bureaucratic boosts
City RP

These things get a boost and I believe it is at the expense of the games and many formerly loyal players.

I agreed with you about removing content right up until you said the above.

How does the Atrium or Fale or anyone else get "boosts" exactly? If these clans are taking the limelight that's because they're proactive. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same with any other clan. Sign up (or app for a sponsored role), climb the ranks, and put your clan on the map by being active. If you don't like these clans conceptually, no problem. Are you ready for the solution? It's really unpredictable, I know: don't join them. There are plenty of other clans with very different concepts to choose from.

Just taking a few random examples, I say this because you see advertisements about fale parties or random social things that get hyped, my view is that there should be some balance, but taking away the harsh and dangerous in exchange for taverns and parties seems to be a bit contrary to the Raison d'etre of Armageddon in general.

Again, just my $0.02, please don'tget hard feelings thinking I am against social rp completely.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on May 09, 2018, 12:17:58 PM
I don't have hard feelings at all, I'm simply trying to understand your reasoning. I know for a fact heavy combat oriented clans are up to stuff and running rpts right now. But it stands to reason that the more social type rpts/clans will reach the ears of many. The combat stuff is only if you're a part of it and in the know.

I'll say it again. If, hypothetically, Salarr is abuzz with lots of public activity and Kadius and Kurac are quiet, that's not Salarr's fault. You seem to be assigning blame on clans for doing what they were designed to do. If those clans aren't your style, no problem! Go sign up for the ones you like and help put them on the map with activity too. Dumping on the efforts of others because you don't like their clan concept or the fact that they are actually bring proactive doesn't seem very helpful to me.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: frankjacoby on May 09, 2018, 01:20:31 PM
Quote from: ghanima on May 09, 2018, 12:17:58 PM
I don't have hard feelings at all, I'm simply trying to understand your reasoning. I know for a fact heavy combat oriented clans are up to stuff and running rpts right now. But it stands to reason that the more social type rpts/clans will reach the ears of many. The combat stuff is only if you're a part of it and in the know.

I'll say it again. If, hypothetically, Salarr is abuzz with lots of public activity and Kadius and Kurac are quiet, that's not Salarr's fault. You seem to be assigning blame on clans for doing what they were designed to do. If those clans aren't your style, no problem! Go sign up for the ones you like and help put them on the map with activity too. Dumping on the efforts of others because you don't like their clan concept or the fact that they are actually bring proactive doesn't seem very helpful to me.

Not in the slightest, my issue overall is with forcing action in a certain direction, imo, it's almost as if you're playing a chess game where you are a pawn and have to follow a certain narrative.  In addition, it's as if it's triply hard for newer or indy people to survive and combine that with a stagnant environment and removal of essential parts of the world and you have a recipe for mass migration.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: ghanima on May 10, 2018, 03:17:39 AM
You still haven't answered what a "bureaucratic boost" is or what a boost in general is. You're seeing some clans being proactive and public and assuming that they're given a boost? What you're really seeing is players playing the game. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. And if you do, should we then say oh frankjacoby is being given unfair "boosts"? Sounds more to me like frankjacoby is playing the game. Maybe you don't like the clans currently at the forefront and see them as less indicative of the Zalanthan world. So why not pick a clan you feel better captivates the environment and bring it into the limelight? It's actually not that hard.

As far as indie troubles goes. Their existence is supposed to be difficult. That's exactly the point of the game. It's a withered and wasted world, ravaged by destructive magicks, where rain never falls and water is scarce and in the hands of the powerful few. Don't expect a free lunch. Everyone is out to get you, whether it's for your boots or your life! Very very very few people in such a world will prosper on their own. Instead, they are often fated to joining the powers that be. It's unfortunate that veteran players know the system (IC resources and how to get them) well enough that they can RP around these troubles, and maybe right now you do not. The irony is that the suffering newbie who doesn't want to join a clan and instead goes out on their own better reflects the harsh realities of Zalanthas than a veteran who can skillfully amass a fortune larger than even a noble or merchant has. If you were to argue that certain aspects of the code need to be more transparent, I'm right there with you. But dumping on other clans and the efforts of other players isn't helping that sort of statement.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on May 10, 2018, 03:36:58 PM
I don't think strength should be nerfed.  Maybe Agility needs boosted and agility checks vs Bash/subdue ect..should be boosted. 
Half giants are supposed to be ridiculously strong.  Think about this...You are fighting a polar bear and it hit you with its paw.  It weighs 900lbs and you weigh 190 lbs, you just can't fight it using strength.

The system is working mostly as intended.  In my opinion.   I also don't think half-giants are being abused, if they were, then we would see a big problem with half-giants murdering people.  Thats not happening though, not as far as I have seen.   If they are given orders by someone to do so and they are loyal to the person giving the orders thats another thing.

Half-giants are not to be played like retarded humans, more so they are supposed to be like human children, naive and meldable to the whims of whoever has earned their trust. I have played along side a lot of the half-giant population with my last character and didn't notice any major abuses.

If They do need nerfed, I don't think a white blanket of strength being cut is a good way of going about it.  Half giants are our tanks and we should use them as such.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: tapas on May 10, 2018, 09:24:01 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on May 10, 2018, 03:36:58 PM

Half-giants are not to be played like retarded humans, more so they are supposed to be like human children, naive and meldable to the whims of whoever has earned their trust. I have played along side a lot of the half-giant population with my last character and didn't notice any major abuses.


I can count on one hand which half-giants I thought could be manipulated, turned or even misdirected. Including most of the current ones, I probably would not even try.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on May 10, 2018, 10:58:21 PM
If you cant manipulate someone, you arent trying hard enough.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Brokkr on May 10, 2018, 11:38:42 PM
They are half-giants, you shouldn't even have to try.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Large Hero on May 11, 2018, 12:08:21 AM
Quote from: Hauwke on May 10, 2018, 10:58:21 PM
If you cant manipulate someone, you arent trying hard enough.

A half-giant should not (usually) be difficult to manipulate. Fooling a half-giant should not (usually) require that most humans "try hard." That's the point. An adjacent idea: observant humans should not (usually) get the impression that a half-giant character would be difficult to manipulate.

When a half-giant character routinely acts independently, takes the lead in groups, displays problem-solving ability and a good memory, or even corrects other characters (all behaviors I've seen recently and frequently from HG PCs), it is reasonable to assume that such a character would be difficult to manipulate.

A player is not responsible for others' assumptions about their character, to a point. But central to Armageddon is presenting our character such that others might reasonably draw assumptions which contain a measure of insight and truth about our character's inner nature. This is part of meaningful roleplaying.

Part of our job is enabling our roleplaying partners to penetrate our character's outer mask, to some degree, and learn what's really going on inside. We need to demonstrate our character in vulnerable, dramatically interesting ways that allow others material to work with, and, potentially, to take advantage of our character. We need to approach the shared creative exercise of roleplaying in a collaborative, thoughtful and honest spirit, rather than in a competitive one.

All characters should betray themselves, given close enough observation or provocation. Even the most intelligent, manipulative and emotionally perceptive characters. There should be a crack in every character's armor, or you're playing to win, instead of playing to embody a person via roleplaying.

Arguably, half-giants should be the most transparent and most manipulable of all characters. The cracks in their armor should be a mile wide. Because this telegraphing should be so obvious, its perceived absence smacks strongly of a player trying to Win the Game. When a player is trying to Win the Game while playing a karma role with a lot of coded power, like half-giants have, it's a concern.

--

I'd wager that most characters don't try to swindle certain HG PCs because they fear a disproportionate backlash. Is the HG going to realize he's being tricked and squash my character? Is the HG going to remember who tricked him, and how, and report my character to the various clan leaders who love the HG because he's necessary for combat RPTs?


Here's a few brief questions I'd ask players of half-giant characters to consider, when judging whether they're projecting enough vulnerability to others.

1. Does your half-giant publicly display expensive horror plate, jewels, and rare items? If so, why haven't these items been tricked or swindled off your half-giant? Has anyone tried? If they haven't tried, why do you think this is?

2. Has your half-giant lived for several RL months and gone through many dramatic or dangerous situations? In how many of these situations did you choose to have your half-giant commit a serious mistake? Have you created serious consequences for your HG or for other characters due to your half-giant's poor choices?


Given how I believe some players of half-giants would answer the above questions, it's clear to see why other players often feel those half-giants are not believably manipulable or fallible. Certain signals speak much more loudly than occasionally farting or yelling in public.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Suhuy on May 11, 2018, 12:48:59 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 10, 2018, 11:38:42 PM
They are half-giants, you shouldn't even have to try.

Totally disagree. Just because half-giants are gullible and easily manipulated doesn't mean you can convince them to do anything at any time. They're not your puppets you can command at will.

I agree with Hauwke. It's not difficult (but not 100% fool proof). Rather than saying you aren't trying hard enough I might instead say you just aren't trying.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Patuk on May 11, 2018, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: Suhuy on May 11, 2018, 12:48:59 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 10, 2018, 11:38:42 PM
They are half-giants, you shouldn't even have to try.

Totally disagree. Just because half-giants are gullible and easily manipulated doesn't mean you can convince them to do anything at any time. They're not your puppets you can command at will.

I agree with Hauwke. It's not difficult (but not 100% fool proof). Rather than saying you aren't trying hard enough I might instead say you just aren't trying.

Three years ago now(I checked), there was a half-giant who literally ran about bossing others around in the Guild as well as in the AoD. Literally smart enough to be part of either, do as it was told for either, hold power in either clan. To do missions on its own eastside and elsewhere and not have things go wrong.

So yeah, nah. This isn't 'you just have to try harder.' It's not even 'you're not trying at all'. Some people do a terrible job of things and should not be playing half-giants, period.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on May 11, 2018, 01:00:28 AM
Any time a HG walks down the street, they are probably bombarded with offers of food for something  that they can be manipulated. Every. Single. Time. Before long even a 5 year old will work out to take the better offers. That guy is offering a scrab steak for me to do that thing? Great! Oh but this guy is offering TWO steaks for me to not do that thing. Oh wow! Even better!

Besides, if a player goes the route of playing their HG that people apparently want, going along with dropping their sword while riding, losing their helmet all the time or breaking their tools, then what do people do? They dont take that HG on the combat RPT because they dont want to deal with it, they stop giving the HG tools so they can no longer do their job and just because enormous slabs of meat who just stand there drooling and get used as a pack mule. How fun do you suppose that is for more than five minutes? At the end of the day, this is a game.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Large Hero on May 11, 2018, 01:05:41 AM
Quote from: Hauwke on May 11, 2018, 01:00:28 AM
<scenarios of HGs making mistakes>
How fun do you suppose that is for more than five minutes? At the end of the day, this is a game.

(https://i.imgur.com/edBQBeJ.gif)

You hit the nail dead center on the head. Many half-giant players seem to value their fun over realistically portraying the shortcomings of the race.

So they choose to ignore or undersell those shortcomings. 

This is exactly the problem.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on May 11, 2018, 01:10:56 AM
There are people who play City elves as wanting to be in the desert, they are City Elves.

There are people who play dwarves and ignore their focus.

There are people who play humans as the ultimate badass, when they are literally the most average race there is.

There are people who play HGs as too smart and thus ignore a large portion of their docs sure.

Do you want to remove City Elves, Dwarves and Humans too?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: azuriolinist on May 11, 2018, 01:17:16 AM
I was going to post but... what Large Hero said, basically.

The point of the game, along with having fun, is to roleplay.

I do agree that one shouldn't be able to convince a half-giant to do just anything without at least a little effort. Half-giants seem to be stubborn (persevering) creatures, after all. In general, what makes them easy to manipulate is that half-giants are easy to see through.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Large Hero on May 11, 2018, 01:18:53 AM
Quote from: Hauwke on May 11, 2018, 01:10:56 AM

Do you want to remove City Elves, Dwarves and Humans too?

Nah. I don't want half-giants to be removed. I've posted saying that in this thread.

I do want people to stop ignoring documentation because it's more fun for them, though.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: azuriolinist on May 11, 2018, 01:20:24 AM
Quote from: Hauwke on May 11, 2018, 01:10:56 AM
There are people who play City elves as wanting to be in the desert, they are City Elves.

There are people who play dwarves and ignore their focus.

There are people who play humans as the ultimate badass, when they are literally the most average race there is.

There are people who play HGs as too smart and thus ignore a large portion of their docs sure.

Do you want to remove City Elves, Dwarves and Humans too?

Rather than removal, perhaps bumping HGs up a karma would be a better option. HGs are, from what I've seen, incredibly difficult to roleplay.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Jihelu on May 11, 2018, 01:31:37 AM
"There are people who play City elves as wanting to be in the desert, they are City Elves." Nothing stops a city elf from being a hunter. Just because he doesn't run good doesn't mean he can't stay near the cities. If someone wants to hard mode, sure.

"There are people who play humans as the ultimate badass, when they are literally the most average race there is." If a human wants to act like a bad ass and die thats up to them, but humans are literally the most cocky of fucks in the world.

The only one of these quotes that even remotely works is the one about dwarves ignoring their focus.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Fathi on May 11, 2018, 04:22:25 AM
Quote from: Namino on April 12, 2018, 01:32:49 AM
The issue with Half Giants is that the benefits of the race are hard-coded into them. Their enormous strength, stamina, HP pool, the benefits of being really big on stride length and bashing, ect.

The limitations of the race are not hard coded into them, to my knowledge. Their skill caps are just as high. The main drawback for all those phenomenal coded strength is that you have to be mentally stunted, which is handled almost entirely through roleplay.

This gets dangerously close to 'Roleplay Police' territory, but when you get massive tangible gains for the cost of restricted RP, then someone does have to police to make sure you adhere to those restrictions, otherwise you're just doing the cafeteria thing where you take all the benefits and leave the rest.

I don't see this about HG loyalists as much as I do about HG drawbacks being on an honor system when the benefits are assured.

This post sums up my feelings perfectly.

Half-giants are a race with an extraordinary amount of coded benefits and very few coded disadvantages. The "balance" is supposed to be in their roleplay, which players are more or less free to ignore.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Cind on May 11, 2018, 04:33:51 AM
Lower mul karma by one, raise hg karma by one. Simple, yeah?
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: X-D on May 11, 2018, 04:34:53 AM
So, on the "fooling half-giants". On any of mine, I always hoped people would at least try to fool, manipulate them. Almost nobody every tried, which is sad. Maybe a handful of times over the course of several HG's. How many successful, one. And here is where I do not agree with Brokkr. You do have to put some sort of realistic attempt. Here is one of the failures. #1 Dude holds up feather, Hey, I have this magick inix feather for sale! HG Inix don't have feathers. HG looks down at the inix he is riding. Dude says It is from a "MAGICK" inix...only two large and it is yours. HG Inix don't have feathers. Dude says Fine...your loss.
So yes, you DO have to try, at least a little bit, I mean, What does the feather do, Why would a HG want it? Remember in Arm, Magick is not a good thing and a HG would know that. Besides, Inix don't have feathers.

A successful one was simple and one of the high points of playing a HG, as an elf managed to convince my HG that his scrab bladder was a lucky water ball. A simple scam with everything believable even to a child and only charged 100 coins...WHAT A DEAL!!!!

As to "turning" a HG...have you ever tried? Again, in several HG's and many years, I have NEVER had a single PC ever try to turn any of my HG's. I have never seen anybody but myself even try, and BOTH times I was successful. I believe that many HG players wait for it to happen, it never does...always saddened me.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: WithSprinkles on May 11, 2018, 05:16:40 AM
I've seen some pretty good examples of HG play I would have thought. I always feel guilty as a player trying to get over on them, so even if I do, I can't bring myself to totally and completely cheat them if it works.

I'll give a round of applause to the player years ago that played the HG that my character hastily tried to find someone else to affix its devotion on. Leaving dead birds for me to find was a nice touch. It was puppy-ish and awesome and while I and my character got that it was a 'nice' gesture.. dude. A huge behemoth of a stranger was cheerfully leaving me dead.. animals... unprompted. You can't buy that kind of confused terror.

I'd say leave the karma requirement where it's at and maybe provide more good examples or flesh out the docs. And don't forget to send kudos when someone is doing well.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: KankWhisperer on May 11, 2018, 10:10:21 AM
I've seen some pretty solid HGs in the last couple years. I've seen some grow a lot better at it too. I should leave a kudos.

By solid I mean loose with secrets, easily co-opted into your schemes, and not overly intelligent.
Good job HG players.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: seidhr on May 11, 2018, 11:53:40 AM
Sarcastic post that did not contribute to discussion removed.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Rahnevyn on May 11, 2018, 12:06:12 PM
I feel the need to comment because a lot of posts in this thread are talking about documentation being ignored for whatever reason. This is not okay. We can disagree on interpretation of documentation, and if anyone has questions about specific situations involving themself or another player they can open up a question request or a player complaint as appropriate. That is what those request types are for. But racial documentation is not meant to be an optional guideline. It is meant to define parameters of how you portray a character that fits into our world.

Finding examples of others ignoring documentation does not justify doing it yourself. The "this is a game" excuse is also not a justification, as it leaves out a key element: this is a roleplaying game, where portraying your race according to documentation is not just encouraged, it is expected. Yes, it is even expected to the point that if following documentation means you might miss out on an RPT or other opportunities, you should stay true to your roleplay.

But also, give your fellow players a chance. Yes, HGs are big and scary. You take a risk just interacting with one, maybe it will squish you, or tell on you to its friends. But I encourage you to try anyway and let the other player show you how they will react. Assume good intentions and that everyone is out to play to the best of their ability. If you have questions or get burned by this approach, again, that's where staff can help.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Gunnerblaster on May 11, 2018, 01:23:21 PM
I personally like having Half-giants as part of the game. I feel a HG's primary role is as an enabler. Effectively, a support role that encourages other players to push stories. In that scenario, I love half-giants.

But to see HG's portrayed as only slightly less-smart humans and going out and operating independently - Frustrates me. A HG should never be independent or playing by themselves.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Delirium on May 11, 2018, 02:06:51 PM
If you send a half-giant out to do something unchaperoned, you should expect them to screw it up. "Go patrol for criminals" and you find them hanging out with a notorious Guild face who is "helping them identify criminals".
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Dar on May 11, 2018, 02:20:46 PM
I hate and love Half Giants at the same time. I love them when they're played properly. But I hate them, not for their improper play, but for my occasional inability to provide them with content. That whole 'someone follows after you, guarding you' routine that some characters do. I love them for it, but it drives me up the walls when I dont have the energy, or creativity to give them something to do. This  does motivate me for coming up with shit and most of the time, I do. But the times when I dont, it sometimes really shakes me. So when Half giants grow slightly smarter with time, enough to be able to provide their own entertainment. I take it as a godsend. Or when I can pair multiple half giants together, so they can create a circus of awesomeness, that is also great.  But on occasion. When my gameplay is more cerebral, I literally avoid playing with half giants.

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Riev on May 11, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
As others have mentioned, the coded benefits of a half-giant are outweighed by their non-coded discrepancies. A mul is strong, but prone to a rage and hunting by the big cities their entire lives.

A sorcerer can summon a fireball on you, but if they are seen casting a spell they could be reported and hunted.

A magicker can turn your dick into sand, but while allowed to live, they're always untrusted and blamed for every little thing.

A half-giant has a lot of HP, natural armor, and can wear the heaviest/best damage-reducing armor. They have massive strength. They are held back by the non-coded limitations of the roleplay surrounding them, and the fact that they can't be CODED leaders of any clan. Or rather they could be, but staff would reverse it soon.

HGs aren't a problem. The way people play them aren't SPECIFICALLY a problem. That they, like dwarves, are given coded advantages with no coded disadvantages is the issue.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: X-D on May 11, 2018, 05:02:58 PM
Coded disadvantage? How about wis so low dwarves look like Stephen hawking, Nice high AGI and you might have 4 items in inventory and forget about any of the agi skills being reliable. Hey, I just got a 30 coin pair of gloves...go get them HG sized, that will be 210 coins please. Mounts are like Henry Ford talking, you can have any mount you want as long as it is an inix. A HG with 65 mana is impressive. I want to go in this cave...nope, tunnel, nope, room with my friends...nope.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Krath on May 12, 2018, 01:38:19 PM
I have to agree with X-D on this one. There are -tons- of additional coded disadvantages, much which we -cannot- go into because it is IC sensitive information that you would find out playing in game.

As far as how to properly RP a half-giant, we all have our opinions, but maybe the staff needs to give a more thorough explanation as to how to RP one.

Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: CodeMaster on May 12, 2018, 04:48:42 PM
Quote from: Krath on May 12, 2018, 01:38:19 PM
I have to agree with X-D on this one. There are -tons- of additional coded disadvantages, much which we -cannot- go into because it is IC sensitive information that you would find out playing in game.

As far as how to properly RP a half-giant, we all have our opinions, but maybe the staff needs to give a more thorough explanation as to how to RP one.

There are two help files to read - I don't think this one is on staff
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Grapes on May 12, 2018, 06:50:24 PM
Fact is HGs get played weird sometimes, and when they do there's little to encourage treating them as HGs after. Myself, having dealt with a HG previously mentioned as to having been smart enough to hold leadership roles... I did hornswaggle them ICly. I'm not certain the situation is as cut and dried as it can appear on the surface. One isolated incident, yes, one where my PC was staring death right in the face, unflinchingly (elf, if you must know)... well, I conned the shit out of them with bullshit reasoning, even if I was innocent, I felt obligated to be full of shit by virtue of playing an elf. They went with it.

I've seen a lot of HGs complained about, when I complained about a HG, it was mostly through the request tool, and this went ignored, or seemingly so. I played a human PC who was relentlessly persecuted by a HG that never forgot, as soon as I got out of chargen. This did not seem fair, in the slightest, it never got bored or found something else to do, it was always on, from chargen out, my PC was, "That guy who's obviously a witch and you should kill them." (wasn't a witch) for like, a full-on IC year. I got banned because I finally got pissed enough to OOC to the player while they were in the room "Why don't you fuck off?!"

HGs that never forget are an annoyance, for sure. I couldn't get any breathing room even after dissappearing for two IG months.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Lizzie on May 13, 2018, 03:47:03 PM
Quote from: worldofsand on May 13, 2018, 03:16:19 PM...

Well okay, Skippy.

Meanwhile, I don't see any problem with half-giants. Even many of the ones people complained about, I had fun interacting with. Not all. The Tarzan-esque "me have fun smack-em good on head unga bunga" ones, not so much. But thankfully those are few and far between.

The ones that are a problem, should be brought to the staff's attention. Half-giants are approved as a matter of trust between staff and player. If the player is abusing the privileged, he should be called out. Not to us - but to the staff. In the form of a player complaint.


Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: X-D on May 13, 2018, 07:39:32 PM
Legit coded disadvantages, and not nearly all of them. Just because -You- Don't like them or think they are enough is beside the point, people said they don't have any when they have many.  You can pick apart the coded or uncoded advantages to every single class and race in the game.. So what? Every single race/class can be and often is played badly, should they all be removed?

200Hp....ooohhh...I have had humans past 120, dwarves past 150 and HGs with 160. I have taken out a pair of HG warriors with WAY more time played with a single delf ranger under 12 days played in melee...using clubs no less. Hell, I have killed long lived HG's with every other race without any issues.

And You are wrong on the wis...I can make any other race with at least good wis WAY more deadly WAY faster then any HG...without even trying.

Can HG's be power houses, Sure, but then so can anybody else. Do they hit really really hard and wear really heavy armor...Yup...But so what, they actually barely affect the game and leave no lasting legacy.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Cind on May 14, 2018, 02:36:18 AM
Just play a dwarf, and learn to think solely about your own survival and your focus. While that can be demanding, no one is going to call you out for refusing to fall for an elf's trick. I don't see how you guys handle average dwarf wisdom, much less the kindergarten hell giants must be.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: stoicreader on May 14, 2018, 08:21:41 AM
Its too hard to PK in arm. HG just have a realistic ability to murder. If I have a 5 Y/O a spear, they could charge and kill a person with a single strike. They don't need to practice it 100 times against others.

I could teach my grandmother to successful SAP with a brick. She doesn't need to fail at sapping 200 times to master it.

So a giant can one hit kill you with a club to the head... That makes sense. A 10 year old child should be able to do this.

A rinthi half elf assassin should be able to stab you 100 times with a sharpened tooth brush handle in under a minute while you sit together in prison.

A rinthi half elf assassin can't even kill a rat in under a minute.

I get HG seem to be overpowered. But it's not that they are overpowered, its that the game is unbalanced in other aspects and HG are the only CODED realistic race so it's seems they are overpowered.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on May 15, 2018, 12:35:58 PM

I believe that certain HG's can 'seem' like their behavior is an oddity compared to the docs, but sometimes an HG is just mimicking the behavior they are to have seen according to the character concept. If my companions as a young giant were hunter/gatherer sorts, why wouldn't it make sense that I know how to do it. I may not know 'why' I'm doing it, or even why it needs to be done this way, but I still have the ability to do these things because I have seen it done so much. As long as it is simple, look for creatures, beat the shit out of them, cut em up, sell em to Salarr....  that doesn't seem out of character for a half giant at all to me. I played a half giant that would get a lot of things and just take whatever he was paid by the buyer because he didn't know how to count.

What I am trying to say here, is that sometimes looking from an outside perspective, half giants can do things that appear independent, but if you take the opportunity to talk to that player IC, you might find out that they are playing their character, as they see the docs, correctly after all.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: KankWhisperer on May 15, 2018, 01:07:08 PM
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: sleepyhead on May 30, 2018, 03:01:54 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 15, 2018, 01:07:08 PM
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Insigne on May 30, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on May 30, 2018, 03:01:54 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 15, 2018, 01:07:08 PM
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.
+1.

I don't know how difficult adjusting the skill system for a single race would be, but this is a terrific idea. I think half-giants should be able pick new skills up faster than other races - but never actually master them.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 30, 2018, 08:07:42 PM
Quote from: Insigne on May 30, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on May 30, 2018, 03:01:54 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 15, 2018, 01:07:08 PM
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.
+1.

I don't know how difficult adjusting the skill system for a single race would be, but this is a terrific idea. I think half-giants should be able pick new skills up faster than other races - but never actually master them.

I concur, that'd be really neat to try out!
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: stoicreader on May 30, 2018, 11:29:53 PM
I would love a non combat HG grebber. A ranger... Outlaw for climb skill.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: seidhr on May 31, 2018, 12:07:31 AM
Pro tip:  Rangers branch climb easily!  ;)
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Strongheart on May 31, 2018, 09:15:10 AM
The proiest pro tip that ever tipped! 8)
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: stoicreader on June 01, 2018, 06:49:04 PM
Quote from: seidhr on May 31, 2018, 12:07:31 AM
Pro tip:  Rangers branch climb easily!  ;)

I never branched it with my 5 day ranger... How are newbies supposed to figure this shit out?  Fucking stupid game and it's fucking secrets at every damn corner.

I'm trying to breathe calmly. Why is this a Damn secret? Fuck.

What skill does it branch from? I typed forage like 10k times. It's so Damn frustrating.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Delirium on June 01, 2018, 06:54:11 PM
Hit me up in helper chat.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Cind on June 02, 2018, 03:53:53 AM
You know, I didn't learn how to branch new spells as a witch for about twenty witches. A few of these things really ought to be outlined, or allowed to be talked about.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 15, 2018, 01:07:08 PM
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

The first sentence of that out of context I agree with. I don't think HGs should really be able to be merchants, and the idea that they can be a ranger (knowing how to climb, shoot, ride, lead two mounts, get through storms, and recognize and deal with poisons) and an assassin also doesn't feel... right, you know what I mean? It feels like there are too many cerebreal skills on those classes, also I guess you can do what I've been doing for years and ignore half of what you get.

I think the problem boils down to the fact that we are all particularly smart people playing a game where OOCly and ICly you need intelligence to play and one of the races happens to be such a restrictive set of morons that we can't figure out how to do them the way the docs currently say to do them (nonloyal, screwing things up all the time.) If we _really_ played HGs the way they ought to be, it wouldn't be hard for a resourceful elf to figure out how to kill one, and after a while of it we'd come to the conclusion that the strength they bring to the table just might not be worth protecting.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Flea on June 02, 2018, 04:53:12 AM
Quote from: Cind on June 02, 2018, 03:53:53 AM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 15, 2018, 01:07:08 PM
A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.
The first sentence of that out of context I agree with. I don't think HGs should really be able to be merchants, and the idea that they can be a ranger (knowing how to climb, shoot, ride, lead two mounts, get through storms, and recognize and deal with poisons) and an assassin also doesn't feel... right, you know what I mean? It feels like there are too many cerebreal skills on those classes, also I guess you can do what I've been doing for years and ignore half of what you get.
I'm of the opinion that half-giants have the capacity to be a little more capable than that.

I agree they shouldn't be able to craft at the same level as a merchant on their own (no elaborate and unique pieces) - but they very well should be able to mimic merchants to a certain degree. Even most 'hands-on' ranger skills (climb, shoot, ride, leading two mounts), I can see them picking up from watching others.

Direction sense does seem to be more of an innate ability than something that's easily observable - but a half-giant trying to navigate anywhere on their own sounds like a recipe for disaster, anyway. Recognizing and dealing with poisons could pretty much go anywhere, with all the finer details and specifics it requires.

According to the help files, half-giants are "observant and imitative". My take on this is that it can extend to the way they learn and pick up new skills. As long as they can mimic it in some way, they can learn it.

This is also why I think they should be able to pick up new accents faster than other races.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: CodeMaster on June 02, 2018, 11:20:14 AM
I always felt that being "observant and imitative" meant half-giants were more into cargo culting behaviors than acquiring them as actual skills.  Per help half-giant roleplay, "It will take them longer to figure [grammatical rules] out than it would a human, but an adult half-giant understands most."
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Flea on June 02, 2018, 09:22:15 PM
I'm not sure I understand? You mentioned cargo culting but quoted a line from half-giant documentation that states that half-giants understand most grammar rules (despite how much longer it takes for them to figure them out)?

In retrospect, there are a lot of intricacies to learning a new accent that a half-giant might not pick up on as easily as a human. They might know "good evening" as one thing in a southern accent and fail to recognize the phrase as such from a heavily-accented 'rinther. It was wrong of me to assume that their proclivity to observation and mimicry is some kind of superhuman ability.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: Hauwke on June 02, 2018, 09:29:33 PM
I would personally assume a Half-giant would imitate the accent even if they dont particularly comprehend what the words being said are, Good evening and g'venen are good examples of it, one is clearly words and the other is... Well its just noises mostly and I feel it would only take a few repetitions before they realise 'this is the noise I make to say hello to these guys'.
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: lostinspace on June 02, 2018, 09:34:19 PM
My general rule for HG roleplay is I can make something if I've seen it done a time or two. Essentially no innovation, just replication. I branch the brew skill, I don't use it until someone shows me how to make something with it, then I start making that one.

This seems fine to me, and the low wis/agi tends to make me fail anyhow. I never say the line "I think I could figure out how to make it" on a HG, instead I say "Wow, how'd you make that?"
Title: Re: Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play
Post by: stoicreader on June 02, 2018, 09:39:07 PM
Like a HG has a chameleon complex?