Armageddon General Discussion Board

A memory that stands out to me is the levies. I -loved- being in the levies, I was a blonde human woman named Kaga who was an unmanifested rukkian, hated the south, and became a 'professional' grebber for House Dasari and was privy to an interesting secret plot there.

The way most people play, they either want to be cockroach-eating elves with skellebained knives or ultra-rich folk who eat cake, and staff makes things for them and not much for the poor, boring, uninteresting common folk I like to play, so getting the levies sounded pretty awesome and I immediately signed up. I did not regret it for a moment, even when manifesting led me to flee the city.

The way the levies were set up worked perfectly if you wanted to be a nobody commoner citizen who regularly played with dirt as a child, but weren't actually responsible for any deaths. I had and still have a touchy schedule that doesn't allow me to play at peaktime, and no one cared or looked for me because of it. I showed up to training, I took advantage of the one minor advantage the levies give you, which would have been nothing to someone with a real job but was the world to a nobody like me. My Dasari noble did not care that I had to run off twice a week, in fact he loved it. It was new and awesome, I loved it, go join the levies.

Tuluk was also the only place I liked playing an unmanifested witch in. It was, when you think about it, the only place they seem to try not to bother you OOCly about it in. I guess they don't like unfair tavern deaths any more than the next person. Its really fun, though, you're sort of sniggering behind your keyboard in a way that gets dampened when you're doing it in Allanak.

I loved the cotton fields. I'm a big knitter, and one of my first solid pcs as a newbie would spend much of her time picking cotton to either sell or make her own clothes with. I miss this part of the game, dunno if you can actually still get cotton bolls and equipment for spinning and weaving it. The cotton fields also served as a grebber balance; do you want to walk through the ruins to a mostly unoccupied area of the old city to make more money, or do you want to greb in the clay pit where its shadier and a bit cooler? I mostly used the clay pits back when that barely made enough for your food and water, so back then it was a real choice. I remember that cotton-weaving newbie would go to the pits, make enough for a cup of milk in the Firestorm every day, and sit in the Firestorm at night with no particular personality because I was pretty new to roleplaying.

Speaking of Dasari, I miss that too. I wasn't particularly useful because anyone who wasn't wearing heels could fill my position, but I was at least available around 12-3 on some days and could get in on some conversations and go search for this or that plant if needed. My noble made time to talk with me and it was refreshing to be a part of something bigger than myself for a change. I realize now that he probably logged in when he realized I was available during middays and I would kudos him except I don't remember anything about what he looks like.

Everything.

I miss it so, so much.

Maybe you folks should go there, check things out.

Quote from: Strongheart on February 07, 2018, 03:27:47 PM
Maybe you folks should go there, check things out.

It's virtually not in existence. Gates closed. Isn't it?

It's codedly not in existence. Virtually it's still there. A giant white elephant stomping around the room.

Gates closed.

;D

There was always something to do.  People got together and did things, almost every day.  I never spent hours sitting alone in a bar.  There was more of a feeling of unity, whereas in Nak every group seems more isolated and autonomous instead of part of something larger.  Between hunting and exploring the lands around Tuluk and socializing inside the city, I found a way to be immersed for many hours a day every day.

Maybe it just was because I was new and everything was shiny and exciting.

Quote from: Refugee on February 07, 2018, 07:07:25 PM
There was always something to do.  People got together and did things, almost every day.  I never spent hours sitting alone in a bar.  There was more of a feeling of unity, whereas in Nak every group seems more isolated and autonomous instead of part of something larger.  Between hunting and exploring the lands around Tuluk and socializing inside the city, I found a way to be immersed for many hours a day every day.

Maybe it just was because I was new and everything was shiny and exciting.

It wasn't because you were new. You're right in your assessment!

It was The Other. You knew things were actually happening on the other side of the world, things that might actually impact you some day.

I liked it because it wasn't Allanak.  It was someplace to go and not have keep as much OOC knowledge secret.  I always rolled in Tuluk when my Allanak character died, and vice versa.  (With breaks for desert elves.)  Almost didn't come back to the game when I found out it was closed.

I really loved the culture there. Nak is very in your face and brutal. Tuluk was playacting like everything is happy and being EXTREMELY brutal on the sly. I was never good at the latter part, but I always enjoyed the former.

I played primarily in Tuluk, but there was a lot that it struggled with. But this is a positive thread.

I liked that the "quarters" of the city were very clearly defined and mostly autonomous. Save a little exploration, you could live most of your natural life in the Warrens without ever needing to explore the Noble area, or even Freil's Rest.

I liked that they were "at war" with Allanak, but had refugees playing in drum circles. They made the appearance that they were all-inclusive, but really they just kept the "good people" and cut out the rot.

I liked when there was UnderTuluk, so there was a place to not play a "thief", but a place to play someone who didn't buy into all the happy-on-the-outside crap that was spewed above ground. It unfortunately turned into a haven for magickers but it had potential.

Again, because it bears repeating: Defined quarters. The ability to know, clearly, you are in the Poet's Circle. In Allanak, I feel like everything is "the bazaar, the commoner's quarter, the noble's quarter, the 'rinth". And that's it. The bazaar and commoner's quarter feel like the same "place" in the city. Tuluk made you feel that you had just walked down a long road and came upon a "new" village in the city.

Tunnels. :)

Tuluk after midnight, featuring boog.

.

Bards and the Bardic Circle, the Artists and their Licenses, the culture, the Sunking spice being legal to commoners, communal cooking area, Arena bar, the Teahouse, more varied noble Houses with broader representation, and more. I could ramble for hours. I miss it.

I loved how bards could hold status in a way that wasn't really available to other people. Perhaps the closest thing to them would be a House mastercrafter. It was like membership in a medieval guild.

In medieval Europe, a man who wanted to be a member of a knitting guild would train as a current member's apprentice for six years (I mean, come on, back then they lived to about twenty so that's a bit steep) and when he was ready to join he had six months to start and finish certain items, like a tapestry and a pair of socks (the item number was around five I think) and they had to show their best work. If it was deemed suitable, they would join as a full member. Women couldn't join but if a member died and his wife needed income she was allowed to try to get in. The Rusalka circle reminded me of the fact that apart from that particular situation, women were only allowed to join rosary-making guilds. Its a complex industry of skilled labor that affects a lot of local people.

The Bardic Circle had requirements like the medieval guilds that might reasonably take as much time and certainly took skill to join and it was unique in the world for this. In a game where the empty spaces in a culture are necessary for creativity, it was kind of cool to see a master bard walk by and know they worked really hard to get to where they were, in a way that doesn't dampen the game's potential for creativity. I'm not sure how relevant this is to the discussion but I didn't want to delete it.

Yeah for me Tuluk was a really good way to still play city politics without having to play with the same characters; I actually loved that a lot, among many things in the culture.

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It was a place to explore when you tired of the Allanaki politics on any character. It was also 'wealthy', considering it was perched right by the Grey and had access to many different types of things. Clan headquarters were bigger and better, even, and it was always a different conversation dealing with Northern Templars compared to Southern Templars. It was a large, amazing bastion for culture that let you know that you really were part of a bigger world even if you were outside Allanak besides the tiny outposts where people got bored quickly and moved on.
I'll give you a quick example; The Byn.
When you were a Bynner, back when there was still a Northern compound, you really felt like you were always 'close to home'.  Either you were close to the northern home or the southern home, but you could reasonably stay in the North for a while and hang out. The place was nicer, even the food, something as simple as the fact that you could get bread from the northern barracks while in the south there was always a shortage, was a nice touch. And with the economy being different than it was in Allanak, there was ALWAYS money to be made. Nowadays, Morins is nothing in comparison, and nobody cares about it much, and it lacks any kind of meaningful history or interesting character archtypes, just 'lol loggers and soldiers'.

Tuluk being gone is like downsizing a company because you're not making enough money. At first, it works because you don't need to pay as many people as much money, but then after a while you realize that you're not doing as much as you could if you had more people. And then everything is just worse as a result. Sure, it'll stay afloat, but it will never be as good as it was.

Quote from: Malken on February 08, 2018, 10:38:55 AM
Tuluk after midnight, featuring boog.

;)

Sometimes, a person is only as good as their counterpart, and I felt like Tuluk definitely had the best of the crop when it came to said counterparts.

I liked that it was a neat little hunting outpost. I liked the 'feeling' of having the rebels right there always trying to sabotage something or 'free' the oppressed Tuluk. I liked that there was an occasional noble or Templar stationed up there but only having one or two made them feel isolated from their powerbase.

I liked Tuluk before it was...revamped.

People seemed to have really enjoyed the Rebellion Tuluk, I noticed. Maybe we need to do something like that again. If you re-open Tuluk right now without changing anything, I think you could do something effectively similar.

Elves up there felt like they had more clout because the Akai had regular contracts with the city that involved work they could do in broad daylight. They had that protected-skilled-artisan thing going on. Whenever I played an elf there the Akai would approach me with offers of work. I kind of liked that. You could both play an elf and have a safe, protected job. I never accepted their offers, but I think I would if I got a chance to play there again.

As most have said Tuluk had a lot of culture to it. And as others have said it gave an appearance of Happy all the time, but what most that did not take the time to play there. Tuluk had a dark side to it behind the scene of the public eyes. Things happened in the shadows..... I miss Tuluk

I think Tuluk would be great if it were just less complicated.

Less documentation, more precise documentation.

Fewer Noble Houses with fewer niches. More Nobles in those fewer Noble Houses.

One Templar Order, with both men and women, squabbling and in-fighting just the same as Blue Robes, but with a different flavor or bent (Psionics compared to Magick).

Fiefdoms for the Merchant Houses to fight over.

Commoners as pawns.

I never played in Tuluk. They closed the gates shortly before I started playing.

We want another city? I'm okay with that.

It's the newly discovered, Aztec-styled city on the far side of the Silt Sea. You need a skimmer to get there and risk all the hazards, but it's filled with wealth and riches and intrigue.

There's no purpose to the Silt Sea right now except as a theme. I want a full maritime culture in the game on silt skimmers. Pirates, seamen, the works! Put whomever did those starter shops in Luir's on the project because their starter shops are above and beyond what could be expected from a newbie equipment store. They're ready for their own freakin' kingdom.

Yesterday I typed who and I saw like 50+ people playing. But they weren't in Morin's, they weren't in Luir's, and they weren't rolling around on the roads north of the Red Desert. Where the heck are they? Dunno. Crowded into the Gaj maybe watching half-elves puke on the floor.

If Tuluk didn't lack in something, it's certainly seaman hehehehehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehehehhehehehehe

I see what you did there. :)

Quote from: Veselka on February 16, 2018, 05:51:13 PM
One Templar Order, with both men and women

Yes, this. The gender thing, while its harmless and politically correct when you aren't thinking in real-world terms, is still restrictive when you're thinking about choices to play inside the game. There is literally no reason, I'm sure, for the gender separation other than an 80's OOC categorical thing. I'm sure a lot of people don't care and would simply redo the pronouns in their initial bio but there are people like me who literally never play one of the genders, or to whom the gender is important for gameplay for some reason, like being a mother, or a deadbeat dad.

I liked the idea of Tuluk most, and when that idea was brought to life through the efforts of dedicated, creative players.

Quote from: Veselka on February 16, 2018, 05:51:13 PM
One Templar Order, with both men and women, squabbling and in-fighting just the same as Blue Robes, but with a different flavor or bent (Psionics compared to Magick).

That actually happened already while Tuluk was still open for play.

It's only positive quality of importance was that it was not Allanak. So if you've played a long lived character in Allanak that had his/her fingers in a lot of pies. You could've played in Tuluk to be away with everything you interacted with prior.



That Is All. Forgive me, but I think the 'benefits' of Tuluk are being 'highly' romanticized due to it being gone for so long.

It is my hope that when it is open, it is sooo dramatically altered. I realize it's hard to impliment, but if you want to have murder/corruption/betrayal, you cannot have an All Seeing Eye as a non virtual concept.


The irony that I'm being a lot less subtle in this post then Yam's answer is not lost on me :).

Chosen Lord Mesmer Dasari
Mirau
Kiris
Keyrena
Zari
Tallis Irofel
Siamaca Kadius
Raleris Winrothol

What I liked about Tuluk are also the things I disliked about it. I'll explain.

I liked the greater focus on descriptions there. You could easily see the difference in the generation that wrote up Allanak and the generation a full decade or more later that wrote up New Tuluk. In Allanak you have things like "a bone dagger" and it has a half-sentence description that literally reads something like "This crude bone dagger looks deadly". Fast forward to New Tuluk and things are a lot more immersive. The problem is I think it went too far. Page long descriptions are just ridiculous, as far as I'm concerned. Unless it's something super unique and rare like maybe a magickal tree, if you're writing a page to describe something, you're just going overboard. There's a point at which a good thing taken to the extreme is no longer good at all.

I liked the attention to detail with clan creating and the desire to flesh out documentation. I saw some of the original clan docs to very old clans from back in they day and they were pretty sparse. Even some of the ones still in existence now are! Tuluk fought against this by weaving a rich and detailed background for itself. But you had these vastly convoluted and over complicated storylines that often resulted in contradictions. It just seemed to go a little too far. It's possible to be descriptive while still being concise and to the point.

Anyone who remembers Old Tuluk will recall a fairly unpleasant design. Once New Tuluk was rolled out it had absurdly long roads, some that literally went nowhere. You'd walk 20 rooms in one direction and suddenly come to a dead end. Thankfully staff reduced this but it was still never much fun to navigate the city unless you were on a running mount.

Tuluk took all the things that were wrong with Allanak and made a concerted effort to improve upon that. I'ml glad for the effort. Unfortunately that goal was often taken so far to the extreme that it just went to the opposite end of the spectrum.

Where Tuluk really shined was of course the Rebellion days. There were some really good plots being hatched at that time and there isn't much criticism to be said for it. But that was all pre-New Tuluk. After the transformation from Old Tuluk to destroyed Tuluk to New Tuluk it just felt too big for itself. If anything is to be done with it currently, these are good lessons to learn from!

Quote from: Bushranger on March 20, 2018, 06:49:30 AM
Chosen Lord Mesmer Dasari
Mirau
Kiris
Keyrena
Zari
Tallis Irofel
Siamaca Kadius
Raleris Winrothol

Creek.
Faithful Lord Kieandatu.
The Fattest of the Fat Lord Dragean

Quote from: Bushranger on March 20, 2018, 06:49:30 AM
Chosen Lord Mesmer Dasari
Mirau
Kiris
Keyrena
Zari
Tallis Irofel
Siamaca Kadius
Raleris Winrothol

Wait you were raleris??

I think he's saying HE was Mesmer, and misses all those other people.

Siamaca and Raleris were awesome. I only really know about Dragean because he was so fat, you could see him from a mile away.

Tuluk was nice because it had way too many taverns. Some times you want to poison the drink of an undesirable without witnesses.

I liked Tuluk when it was just a burned-out shell of a city with ruins, barrens, the Sanctuary, and Freil's Rest.

The entire way the city was rebuilt has always been a point of contention, with staff actually shortening its roads towards the end.

Basically, with the rebuilding of Tuluk, tons of resources and docs - some very in-depth, like the Poet's Circle - were created for an area that would eventually be closed.  Reworking the city extenisvely, opening and closing zones, creating and changing docs... I guess one could say that you can appreciate Tuluk for the fact that it received more attention in terms of docs/new clans/new policies/new rules than Nak ever did in that time.

I like it when nobles got force stored for banging commoners.

But most of all, what I liked about Tuluk was that it was once open, but now it's closed. 

RIP shartists.


Edit:  It also demonstrated the problem of trying to impose clan caps on groups playing in an area where the playerbase is small.  No, you can't do that, or, whenever an engaging leader does enter a place like Tuluk, they are severely hamstrung when it comes to involving the one or two PCs who have stuck around for a IRL week or so because nobody is around to hire her or the current clans won't because they've reached their hard population cap. And if not a human native, good luck.

Experimental policy changes like that did not serve well in keeping Tuluk.

The Poet's Circle
When it was hopping you had commoners competing for commoner level title, affluence and work prospects.  It was really cool because at face value it had nothing to do with combat.  It set up scenarios where commoners could court and be courted for work without using any coded abilities.  It allowed really cool ways to promote products, slight your enemies, and use OOC creativity.  On top of that, of course, many were shadow artists and artisans.  It added culture and guidance and a lot of fun RP opportunities.  There was also the Ghatti Teahouse that bards were rumored to work at so I had once PC that always waitressed there for fun.

It's odd.  Because right before I quit the Bard's Circle was so popular I got force stored for not playing enough (even though I was kinda busy and out of town at the time).  I come back a few years later and Tuluk is completely closed and getting ragged on.  Huh?  I'm so confused!  Also, oddly enough according to these messages this was exactly almost to the date of today six years ago.

Quote2012-09-09 07:58:03PM (2192 days ago)
I just went to log in to Bae and it seems I've been stored.  It doesn't look like I even received an e-mail.  I recently logged on a couple of times then I [redacted was basically out of town and super busy IRL]  I went to log on tonight and no character.  What happened?

QuoteNyr
2012-09-10 20:14:31 (2191 days ago)
[account name redacted],

When Eurynomos sent you that e-mail a bit more than a month ago, it was specifically asking about your playtimes because there is a lot of interest in the role of a bard, and you were not playing--and we have plenty of people interested in both auditioning and playing a sponsored one.

You weren't playing.  You logged in briefly that night (less than an hour).  You logged in briefly more than a month later (less than an hour).  There had been no other communication from you at all, so I made the decision to store your PC (as well as any other PCs inactive to that extent).

Good luck with your next role.  If you'd like to play a bard in the future, that's wonderful, but we will definitely expect more playtimes in these coveted roles.  You can't sit on it indefinitely.

Regards,

Nyr

I hold no grudge here.  It is just baffling to me that this was the state when I left and this is the state upon my return.

The Option of Exile
Exile was a viable option in Nak for Templar's that wanted to get rid of someone without PKing.  One time I got exiled in game and I literally have no reason why.  Maybe the Templar was cray.  Which is cool because Blue Robes totally can be that.  Another time I was running a leader in the Guild and had to keep my head low so I scuttled to Tuluk and did just that.  As a city-based character I got to use my skills in a new setting which was fun.  If you get exiled in Nak IG now your options are Luir's which of course are ran by Merchant Houses still trying to get in good with Nak.  Plus it's not super easy for a city based character to stay active there.  When you ran off to Tuluk as an exile it was fun because you were an Outsider but could still find common ground on being like, fuck Nak!

The Baddies
It saddens me that new players won't know what it's like to have PC baddies.  I don't just mean the Templarate.  When everyone would get together for Luir's Fest and you would have Allanaki and Tuluki PCs together you could cut the tension with a knife at times.  It was so amusing.  And you had GMH family trying to play both sides.  It was finely tuned balancing act.

On top of that, you of course could put a face to thine enemy and find ways to fuck with one another from afar.  Now the game seems more PVE.  That IG antagonist is gone and the game world seems far more empty to me without it.  Yes, that relegates conflict to a few spots remaining IG but it really isn't in the same at all IMO and sometimes now leads to pettiness at times due to boredom.

The Economy
It was fun having certain items more rare on either side of the world.  Obsidian in Tuluk and wood in 'Nak.  It made the trade routes seem so alive to roam across the Known, gather some things for trading and then scuttle back with a bounty if you could make it.  Did some people take advantage of this?  Totally.  Did it need some tweaking?  Yah.  But it was so fun having a living breathing economy on both sides of the world.

The Tattoos
From shadow artists inks, to commoner markings.  I loved all of the ritualism.

Playability
Let's be real.  Sometimes Nak is overrun with people you don't wanna play with, or Templars overzealous on PK.  When Nak felt un-playable you could scoot on over to Tuluk and vice versa.  And some people just preferred Tuluk.  It fit their vibe and play style.  I started out not playing in Tuluk for the first few years because I thought it was "froo froo", then I started to give it a try and got hooked with all of the ritualism, stylization and beginning to realize the oh so subtle nuances of Tuluk that were ultimately no less brutal and sometimes even more so than Allanak.  That playability is lost now for those that were primarily Tuluki players.

A Breath of Fresh Air - Reset
When I would get tired of Nak, I could play in Tuluk and it was like playing the game anew if I had been0 isolated and didn't know what was going on on the other side of the world.  I also could get a whole different feel for awhile.  It made the game again feel more expansive.

Magicker Hate
Being a sekret witch there was scary as hell.  And in general it was fun to be in a city-state where that shit was NOT tolerated, fam.

Summary
Tuluk had it's issues but so does the game.  There were times it was a really immersive, vibrant and brutal place to play.  It irks me when people say it wasn't thematic.  Thematic to Armageddon?  It absolutely was.  You can't call half of a game that's been around for decades not thematic.  Maybe it wasn't thematic to tribal, desert life or harshness or what ever notions you had in your mind.  Was it thematic to Allanak?  No.  For some reason people seem to default to that.  Tuluk wasn't Allanak but it was still a brutal city in the scrub and I have a lot of good memories of playing (and dying) there.  It was thematic to the game because it was just as much a part of the game as the other cities.  Alas.

I don't know what I missed by I'm super surprised and bummed to see Tuluk go from bustling to straight ass gone.
I volunteer as tribute if it ever gets revived.

What's ironic to me, and I obviously can't specify as to why my opinion is such, is that to me right now?  Allanak feels a WHOLE lot like Tuluk, actually.

@Bebop

That's a well-written review. I appreciate the time you took to write it up and agree with the majority of your points

I wish Tuluk was still around...

...and I do agree that Nak feels more like Tuluk than it used to.

I think a part of that is, quite simply, not having real PC north/south enemies. It's a lot easier to successfully run materials between the north/south now than it used to be, because there aren't PCs that are really auto-aggro towards people from the other side of the world.

That, and a lot of the PCs who would have created characters in Tuluk are playing in Nak now, if they haven't quit the game, bringing some of the attitudes and RP styles that brought Tuluk alive with them.

I miss dust-ups in the grasslands. There was always a shit ton of hunters out there, and often desert elves, and sometimes invisible whirans and sorcerers.

There was all kinds of great skirmishes, standoffs, tension, murders and bounties to be had.

There's still some fun to be had, but not like it used to be. The grasslands were like an unofficial tavern when Tuluk was open.

I would have liked to try it.

The world appears much smaller without Tuluk in the game. Macro has appeared to become micro; groups that may have been privateers or working as agents for Tuluk against Allanak, or Allanak against Tuluk, simply become targets for all who are willing to jump on the bandwagon.

As a white elephant in the game world, it serves only the purpose of speculation. What is Tuluk? What is happening in Tuluk, or with Tuluk? It is, and it isn't -- a subject best avoided, both in the game, and outside of it.

Every protagonist (self-perceived) needs an antagonist (self-perceived). These self-perceptions of either extreme offered nuance and double dealing, subterfuge and sabotage. It put entities like the Greater Merchant Houses in bigger pickles, as they had to play against and with both sides.

Instead, it appears that our story has changed -- The protagonist/antagonist has become micro, rather than macro. They are within one city state, within one circle of friends/enemies/acquaintances. Problems can be vindicated, blamed, or mislead within a shrinking Venn diagram. The original purpose, or purported purpose, behind the closure of Tuluk was consolidation, and if that has been achieved, it has lead to just that -- a condensed player base, a more homogeneous and cliquey player base, where long lived characters dictate culture more than documentation, and where antagonism appears as a welcome break from the mundane.

Often, the mystery of Tuluk or Allanak created further imaginative plot-hooks and articulations than what actually occurred. Allanak might be as dead and dry as a desiccated corpse, with a low player base and trouble getting Aides and new hires through their clans. But in Tuluk, who knows? Allanak might be planning its next attack, its next spy craft campaign. The same obviously went for Tuluk when it had its long dry spells of inactivity -- It still presented a real and present danger to those in politics in Allanak, and as the often imagined foil to their own plots and plans.

In essence, to have Tuluk 'around' but unplayable is perhaps the most Tuluki thing to happen to Tuluk. Tuluk would have liked it that way, in all its bloated subtlety and heavy documentation, to be, and to not be, at the same time. But from a gameplay standpoint, it's almost worse to have it exist and not exist.

As to what I liked about Tuluk -- The reformation, the drastic changes happening towards its closure, appeared to be a train on the right track finally. It was a shock to see its closure especially in the timeframe which it happened. I hope one day it will reopen, but beyond that hope, I hope to one day have a more macro game -- where the story can appear larger than it actually is, rather than as small as you perceive it to be.

Quote from: Veselka on September 12, 2018, 12:47:46 AM
Instead, it appears that our story has changed -- The protagonist/antagonist has become micro, rather than macro. They are within one city state, within one circle of friends/enemies/acquaintances. Problems can be vindicated, blamed, or mislead within a shrinking Venn diagram. The original purpose, or purported purpose, behind the closure of Tuluk was consolidation, and if that has been achieved, it has lead to just that -- a condensed player base, a more homogeneous and cliquey player base, where long lived characters dictate culture more than documentation, and where antagonism appears as a welcome break from the mundane.

*applauds*

Quote from: Bebop on September 12, 2018, 01:09:46 AM

Quote from: Veselka on September 12, 2018, 12:47:46 AM
Instead, it appears that our story has changed -- The protagonist/antagonist has become micro, rather than macro. They are within one city state, within one circle of friends/enemies/acquaintances. Problems can be vindicated, blamed, or mislead within a shrinking Venn diagram. The original purpose, or purported purpose, behind the closure of Tuluk was consolidation, and if that has been achieved, it has lead to just that -- a condensed player base, a more homogeneous and cliquey player base, where long lived characters dictate culture more than documentation, and where antagonism appears as a welcome break from the mundane.

*applauds*

+1

While I do think something needs to be done about White Elephant Tuluk, I also want to point out that the microplots/pettiness and the dogpiling on potential conflict out of boredom and the influence established PCs can wield is not a new problem. It existed when Tuluk/Allanak were both open. It's just harder to escape now.

I miss Tuluk because

Step 1: wash with soap on the way to the north and participate in gossip about the south in The Firestorm ...

Step 2: kill ten things on my way to the south, remain bloody and participate in gossip about the north in the Gaj ...

step 3: ....

step 4: profit.

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on February 15, 2018, 10:11:53 PM
I liked Tuluk before it was...revamped.

Ditto. Under Nakki rule, rebels plotting underground and all that shit. What ended up being was badly executed. I think they *wanted* to be the opposite of Nak but they weren't. It ended up being the opposite of Zalanthas, of murder,  corruption and betrayal. 
Preservation, morality, loyalty.
Live long and prosper.   
Vulcans. Tulukis were vulcans, heh.


All kidding aside:

Quote from: Veselka on September 12, 2018, 12:47:46 AM
from a gameplay standpoint, it's almost worse to have it exist and not exist.

Agreed.

It's closure,  imo, has led to things softening all around. I'd like to see it return,  Tuluk 2.0, with one templar order,  without tattoos, with shadow artistry that was as elite as they claimed it was,  with true patriotism.


I keep hearing we need a larger player base though.


I wonder what staff's stance on the reopening is.

Quote from: ShaLeah on September 12, 2018, 05:20:40 PM
I'd like to see it return,  Tuluk 2.0, with one templar order,  without tattoos, with shadow artistry that was as elite as they claimed it was,  with true patriotism.

I can get behind this. I think it would be nice for that one templar order not to have a particular set of "all seeing eye" powers. It would allow for more intrigue. Maybe have those people be far fewer in number, and not called in to deal with the petty squabbles between GMHs and independents, but rather be reserved for dealing with the security of Tuluk itself from it's southern counterpart. Perhaps as NPCs only. Could be the Tuluki version of a Red-Robed templar, as much as I dislike the glass ceiling idea.

I never understood the gender outcry of two divided orders. I thought it was unique, and their was a great story arc for tension, culture, and competition.

Everyone that played their was fine with potentially nerf'ing the one order type thing with the proclaimed "plot ruining powers."

I was tuluki fan o #1 for a long time, but the winds shifted and the ship sailed south, as did all the staff. Id say about a third of the players I know left the game at the time and a good deal havent come back. I dont know anything for sure, especially regarding staff decisions, but im fairly confident it will not ever be a thing again outside of an hrpt or extended plotline.

I like another city over the silt sea. Lets make that a real thing!

Quote from: Aruven on September 13, 2018, 04:22:30 PM
I like another city over the silt sea. Lets make that a real thing!

I could get behind the idea of making a city OTHER than Tuluk, too. I don't know if this is exactly how I'd go with it, but just having some real alternative to Nak would be a welcome change. I think a major culture shift in Tuluk is the most realistic option, though. The game area is already built, so it would require the least work by staff.

They're not going to build you a new city.  ::)

You know, that's one thing I really liked about accursed lands..they actually had code implemented to allow for building of stuff in wild zones of the game, so you could build a cabin in the woods or something. I think that would be a great addition to Arm.

I believe that at the very end Tuluk was changed to have some more grit and less smiling, but I don't think people remember what is essentially its last two weeks. Was a bit late to do much but bite the bullet and watch the gates close.

Having only one noble house and the militia open in both cities and keep both cities open would solve it, I think. Only noble Houses can really call their bluffs against the militia, from the little I've seen at least. The merchant houses are at the militia's mercy in the end, because they are not technically part of the power structure as they comprise partially of foreigners and do business with both sides.

It'd be bare-bones, but we'd have enemies again. (I don't really know what to say about the GMHs, keep them open so crafters can have options? Although something tells me that's not really the way to go; perhaps just having one open would suffice, change which one's open every few years.) The enemy city would loom beyond the horizon the way it should, and if you worked hard enough, were a jackass, or were a nice person not doing anything you'd also have enemies again in the city proper. Remember, Houses and the militia are just warring elf tribes without the ragged clothes and the beautiful faces.

Opening tuluk spikes the player base a bit. Fite me if this is untrue, but if its broadcast its real. Not that I have a particular need to see it spiked, I just remember when it was average to have like 60 - 70 folks on because always a portion of those loved the north and would play there.

Taking Tuluk out was essentially a George R.R Martin move in the end. Create a world with lore, conflicts, cultures, then cave into the HBO studios for the instant gratification and michael bay explosions and action -- never finish the actual books because its a little harder to figure out how to do it. My suspicion is some of the writers and visionary folks that could really craft the story left; both staff and player side, and its not really possible to get the same caliber of continuation (Not because they CAN'T, but simply they don't have any desire to do so), so they closed it among other things. I could dig up my logs with staff where months out it was clear they were over the shit and it was all mostly operation clean up to get it closed.

At any rate, I spent some time trying to find the Armageddon reborn BS. They had a cool idea about how cities would work in a thread and I couldn't find it.

Quote from: Aruven on September 13, 2018, 04:22:30 PM
I never understood the gender outcry of two divided orders. I thought it was unique, and their was a great story arc for tension, culture, and competition.

Everyone that played their was fine with potentially nerf'ing the one order type thing with the proclaimed "plot ruining powers."

I was tuluki fan o #1 for a long time, but the winds shifted and the ship sailed south, as did all the staff. Id say about a third of the players I know left the game at the time and a good deal havent come back. I dont know anything for sure, especially regarding staff decisions, but im fairly confident it will not ever be a thing again outside of an hrpt or extended plotline.

I like another city over the silt sea. Lets make that a real thing!

Even if 70 players were regularly logging in during the week, it is still a lot of work to support two sets of great merchant houses, two sets of templars, two sets of noble houses... and all of the minions those PCs require.  Different sets of players for other clans, too, like city elf/Bard's Circle.  That there's a lotta roles to fill.

after all that, you have to set new staff members to those individual groups, too.

it's neat to think about a way to open Tuluk for trade/travel only, while not allowing anyone to play actual PCs based there, but I have no idea about the IC events leading to Tuluk's closure... so, I won't speculate.

At the end of the day, there is still Morin's.  In a way, it mirrors what Tuluk was like when I started playing:  when Freil's Rest was an enterable village, when there were no clans available in the North except Kadius, the Rebellion, very infrequent southern nobles/templars (like a Borsail who found a hidden tunnel, facepalm).  I mean, Morin's is self-sustaining, and the game has basically come full circle by it acting as the new Freil's Rest.

There are solid reasons for why Tuluk has closed twice, and it's unfortunate that players left solely because it closed.  Maybe they had never played the game before Tuluk was rebuilt? At any rate, 1/3 of the playerbase leaving just because of Tuluk's closure doesn't add up to me.  Over the past 5 RL years, lots of players have left or were banned for reasons completely unrelated to IC events or Tuluk's closure.

Tuluk closing didn't cause the player base to shrink. Tuluk was closed *because* the player base shrunk.

Quote from: number13 on September 22, 2018, 02:57:21 PM
Tuluk closing didn't cause the player base to shrink. Tuluk was closed *because* the player base shrunk.

There's a very real possibility of a negative feedback loop there, as well. Playerbase shrinks>Tuluk is Closed>Playerbase further shrinks.

I think more accurately, Staff's ability to oversee both areas of the world shrunk. Keeping two GMH branches open, overseeing two Templar orders, and generally 'two player bases' was not sustainable for them considering Staff burnout.

At least from what I gathered in the announcement from Staff at the time, it was something that was a slow-burn happening for quite a while. Tuluk when it was closed was probably the most populous/happening that it had been since 2006. But this was trying to address a systemic issue for Staff, not necessarily because the player base was shrinking. They were trying to consolidate the player base, but this in effect consolidates the Staff and their realms of influence.

Four Staffers that would have been assigned to Tuluk are instead assigned to GMH, Southern Staff, and Indies, which in theory would increase their ability to oversee those areas, and also allow for wiggle room when a Staffer goes AWOL or has to suddenly take a leave of absence. There were times when Tuluk was open where there would be two Storytellers and one Admin active -- If one of those Storytellers went AWOL or had to take a leave of absence, you had one Storyteller, and possibly one Admin overseeing an entire area of the game. The same was true of Indies, definitely.

So, I always saw it as a way for Staff to operate more efficiently, regardless of player interest in the area or the current population, or of a 'shrinking player base'. That wasn't a reason that was cited as far as I remember.

That sort of goes into the whole negative feedback loop thing, though. Since staff are drawn from the playerbase, a larger choice of potential staff members results from more players, with the opposite also being true. So, losing players by making the available game smaller also loses potential staffers who could have staffed those areas.

I liked Tuluk because, simply, it wasn't Allanak. I've only had the pleasure of playing there twice, unfortunately, both in Kurac and the Byn, but there was always just a different feel to it. While I understand both a city/states in a land of death and despair, it felt a little less so in Tuluk. Again, that may also be my limited play time there coming through as well. But I mean, you can 'feel' it in Allanak, like death is just standing over your shoulder at all times.

I'm for another city maybe, a smaller one, not quite a city/state, but maybe a peg or two below? A fully tribal city, maybe. But that's just me tossing something out there.

Quote from: razorback on October 23, 2018, 07:57:18 PM
I liked Tuluk because, simply, it wasn't Allanak. I've only had the pleasure of playing there twice, unfortunately, both in Kurac and the Byn, but there was always just a different feel to it. While I understand both a city/states in a land of death and despair, it felt a little less so in Tuluk. Again, that may also be my limited play time there coming through as well. But I mean, you can 'feel' it in Allanak, like death is just standing over your shoulder at all times.

I'm for another city maybe, a smaller one, not quite a city/state, but maybe a peg or two below? A fully tribal city, maybe. But that's just me tossing something out there.

We have Morin's and Luirs. How would that city be different from those two?

I liked Tuluk primarily because it gave Allanak a world-affecting "cause." Why is Allanak ruled by Tektolnes? Why does it have patrolling soldiers? Why is it an oppressive culture? Why doesn't everyone mutiny and head north? BECAUSE THEY ARE TAUGHT TO BELIEVE TULUK IS WORSE.

That is the entire point of Allanak. It is Tuluk's adversary. Without Tuluk, there's really no reason for Allanak to exist. And vice versa. They are protagonist and antagonist to each other.

Virtually, this is still true. But it's difficult to play it, because there are no Tuluk citizens who are actually living in, and from, Tuluk anymore.

We can come up with new adversaries, or use existing "other places" to create new adversaries. But they'll never really pack the same punch as Tuluk vs. Allanak because they are both city-states, and everything else is either an outpost, a wasteland, a cavern, tunnels, village. Small potatoes. Laughable compared to the might of a city-state.

didn't allanak get formed first?

people do riot - that's a mutiny. it gets put down pretty hard.

remember that mutiny where that dwarf guy, bane rustydagger, tried to rebel against allanak? all went well until people learned why large scale full on mutinies don't happen, or last long.

a dragon burninated them.



what did i like about tuluk? the clothes. that's pretty much it.

Quote from: Nao on October 24, 2018, 03:50:17 AM

Quote from: razorback on October 23, 2018, 07:57:18 PM
I liked Tuluk because, simply, it wasn't Allanak. I've only had the pleasure of playing there twice, unfortunately, both in Kurac and the Byn, but there was always just a different feel to it. While I understand both a city/states in a land of death and despair, it felt a little less so in Tuluk. Again, that may also be my limited play time there coming through as well. But I mean, you can 'feel' it in Allanak, like death is just standing over your shoulder at all times.

I'm for another city maybe, a smaller one, not quite a city/state, but maybe a peg or two below? A fully tribal city, maybe. But that's just me tossing something out there.

We have Morin's and Luirs. How would that city be different from those two?

Never played in Morin's (come to think of it...there's ALOT of places I haven't tried, I need to get out more), but Luir's never felt like a 'city' to me...even while I was playing a Kuraci, it seemed more like a fort. But again, that is my own personal perspective.

Quote from: Heade on September 13, 2018, 05:37:59 PM

Quote from: Aruven on September 13, 2018, 04:22:30 PM
I like another city over the silt sea. Lets make that a real thing!

I could get behind the idea of making a city OTHER than Tuluk, too. I don't know if this is exactly how I'd go with it, but just having some real alternative to Nak would be a welcome change. I think a major culture shift in Tuluk is the most realistic option, though. The game area is already built, so it would require the least work by staff.

Even if it's just 6-10 rooms (a place to visit, buy rare shit, and leave) with the rest of the city being virtual, SOMETHING on the other side of the silt would be hugely beneficial to the game and the coolness of the world imo.

Yeah, I agree. Right now, there is _literally no reason_ to traverse the sea, because I don't know for myself, but people are fucking chatty and I've never heard of something close enough to easily travel to.

Build three islands--- two that are basically flat rocks with some moderate grebbing potential and a place to set up your tent, one of which has a cave, and a third island with something of value, all strategically placed to give people choices on where they think they should go. An easy island that people who can't go near Allanak can go to for certain greb, an island for witches with a cave on it and a hard island with rewards.

Do remember that skimmers disappear when the game crashes, in case this stuff, you know, actually exists.

Quote from: Cind on November 05, 2018, 02:39:09 AM
Yeah, I agree. Right now, there is _literally no reason_ to traverse the sea, because I don't know for myself, but people are fucking chatty and I've never heard of something close enough to easily travel to.

Build three islands--- two that are basically flat rocks with some moderate grebbing potential and a place to set up your tent, one of which has a cave, and a third island with something of value, all strategically placed to give people choices on where they think they should go. An easy island that people who can't go near Allanak can go to for certain greb, an island for witches with a cave on it and a hard island with rewards.

Do remember that skimmers disappear when the game crashes, in case this stuff, you know, actually exists.

Usually when a mount/something super important to your current situation disappears from a crash/restart, you can wish up and often times staff are very on point with reimbursement without needing to send in a request (still gotta send in a request if you have an excess of items that also went missing). But now I wonder what happens if there is a crash, when you're on a skimmer, in the middle of the silt.... Do you get back into the game without the skimmer, and immediately sink to your death? That would give me skimming ptsd.




But in response to the main topic of this thread, my most favorite parts about tuluk was the false sense of security and safety and friendliness. In a city, where skillful assassinations, thievery and burglaries are in fact legal, as long you're not caught?.. That's an extra niche I really want to see back in the game in certain parts of the world. It's only a crime if you're bad at what you do.

I was a legal pickpocket for a day (yep) and was specifically told that its only a crime if I'm caught, by a templar.

Yes, let's please have that again, somewhere.

Allanak has 'only a crime if you get caught by a Templar who doesn't like you'. It's in the quickstart that it doesn't matter if you did it, it's whether someone says you're guilty or not.

We could ritualize/officiate thieving by giving elves an organization.

Quote from: Cind on November 06, 2018, 03:08:29 AM
I was a legal pickpocket for a day (yep) and was specifically told that its only a crime if I'm caught, by a templar.

Yes, let's please have that again, somewhere.

It's called everywhere!

I miss partisanship to nobles/templars.
I miss the ability to be indie, while still being able to be deeply involved in plots/politics (partisanship, levies)
I miss the bards and plays
I miss public opinion mattering more in Tuluk.
I miss being able to fuck up in one city and run away to another lively city.

That said I don't miss Lirathans at all, and would rather just see Tuluk closed rather than bring them (or the more watered down version that came after them) back in the game in any playable form.  :-X

So many people are remembering tuluk through rose covered glasses, its very cute

Tuluk was indeed awesome for about 2 months before closure. When staff siced Rathustra and a bunch of other awesome storytellers on it and they made the city bustle with activity. Bustle, but not perpetuate. The moment staff attention would spread out to normalcy again, tuluk once again would become lukewarm.

Sorry guys. But I dont think we have the playernase for tuluk. Just not enough people. And if it gets open again without being reinvented in a major way, then the losses we took when it closed would be in vain. 

To be honest, as someone who loved Tuluk, I wouldn't mind having the place disappear completely, in exchange for apartments at Morins.

Morins is a wonderfully written place and  it is probably just my imagination but I can almost feel how much effort was put in to try to stuff tuluk into that much smaller space. Unfortunately, it is really just an amazing hangout, a great place to work and visit, but not really a place staff is encouraging people to live unlike with Luirs for example.

This is understandable with the effort being put in Allanak and Luirs.  I think maybe in the future there is potential for Morins to grow beautifully. I don't see nobles or templars working there perhaps, but a legionnaire sergeant and small Calvary to patrol the area would fit easily assuming if people began crowding the place.

I would love to see some private booths at the tavern allowing more private conversation and interactions(lol). However,  I know that even this small addition would probably make people play and try to live there more. And while we might have some players returning to 'rebuild' a new tuluk, more likely the numbers will come from people currently playing in other places of the game right now.

If player numbers do return even a bit closer to what it used to be, I think it would be cooler to build up Morins rather than just open Tuluk.

Agreed. I can say that last I checked (a year and change ago) Morin's was deliberately not being supported. I am hopeful that eventually that will change as it is a neat village with a lot of storytelling promise.

Yeah, like I've said in the past, I liked Tuluk and want in back. BUT, I do agree that just a wee bit of support in the north would go a long way.

Apartments in Morin's.
2 Booths for private conversations in morin's tavern.
1 Sponsored Sarge who's allowed to recruit for the Legion, based out of the fort south of the span.
1 Sponsored Northern Templar/Noble who acts as an ambassador to Luir's Outpost, to counteract ambitions of Nakki's to control Luir's.

Just these 4 changes would bring back a LOT of the north/south dynamic that was GOOD, without having to support a huge city state that spread the population too thin. I've heard a lot of complaints just regarding the sheer size of Tuluk. And with a smaller playerbase, that makes sense. But I don't think it's a reason not to support ANY Tuluki's, elsewhere in the game where the population can be more concentrated.

I already listed my case and everything I love about Tuluk in my thread about ReOpening the place.

I honestly think Allanak or Tuluk would come in and crush Luir's before it develops into it's own mini-city state as it has begun to do and I really can't think of any IC reason that isn't in the process of happening.  It's all OOC.

I definitely don't look at the situation they're in now and say "it's all OOC motivated", at all. Like people were fond of saying about Tuluk, just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there.

I can only speculate, but I can think of many reasons why Luir's is balanced on the knife-edge it is.

Economic power, for one. Together all four GMH wield a substantial amount. There could also be a lack of reward/gain to either City-State at this moment in time that is worth expending the necessary effort for a takeover. Pre-existing threats, other more currently demanding matters, could be taking precedence. I could go on. I think you will be a lot happier if you look for reasons why something might be the way it is, rather than decide that there can't possibly be any good reason at all.

One of the things I dislike most about the current situation is that, really, all that kept Luir's from being taken over by Tuluk or Allanak in the past has been the idea that, if either one started marching enough troops to take over the Outpost, the other side would be alerted and also march troops, because Tuluk couldn't abide Luir's being under Allanak control and vice versa.

I think that mutually assured destruction element of it, where, deciding to march on Luir's would almost certainly provoke the other side into marching as well, creates a situation where Luir's CAN thrive.

But the problem that I have with it, is with zero support not only for Tuluk, but also for Tuluki culture and representation in the game at all, that feeling of being in the middle between two powerful sides doesn't exist for Luir's. There is only one side, and there are no PCs that could "bring down the hammer" so to speak of the Northern City State. As the IC situation exists now, with Tuluk having essentially closed it's gates for a couple generations, I have absolutely no idea why Allanak doesn't come to "protect" Luir's, and basically take over.

It requires a huge suspension of disbelief that really wouldn't be necessary with just a TINY bit of support for Morin's/The Tuluki Fort.


EDIT: I mean, there are players in the game now, who are considered "experienced" players, who have no idea what it used to be like to be a southerner hunting the grasses around Tuluk. They have no idea that the area is supposed to be dangerous for southies. Or even gemmers. You have gemmed openly running around close to Tuluk. That shit never happened when Tuluk was open. The lack of an external threat to Allanak is negatively impacting people's perception of the gameworld. And the only thing "stopping" Allanaki PCs/NPCs from plotting a takeover of Luir's is an unsupported make believe city state whose leadership can't be interacted with by OOC mandate.

Players of northern loyalists have tried to make life around Tuluk dangerous for southerners with varying success, but yes, the lack of support for Tuluk-related plots makes that area of the game suffer when and if players of southerners/gemmed aren't responsible about remembering virtual and NPC threats.

I still suspect that if you were in the right position to find out, there would be many solid IC reasons why Luir's exists as it currently does.

Quote from: Delirium on November 20, 2018, 03:49:58 PM
when and if players of southerners/gemmed aren't responsible about remembering virtual and NPC threats.

Tuluk has been gone long enough that current players who could have 3 Karma don't know WHAT to remember. There is so very little information about Tuluk and the area around it that players who started since Tuluk closed can't be blamed for not "remembering". I mean, seriously, these players have been around now with Tuluk closed for a period of time exceeding the life of many MMORPGs.

Quote from: Delirium on November 20, 2018, 03:49:58 PMI still suspect that if you were in the right position to find out, there would be many solid IC reasons why Luir's exists as it currently does.

I'm aware of some of the other factors that would make it less than a cakewalk. But if you take away the Tuluki element, Luir's couldn't stand against Nak independently if Nak set their sights on it, even with those other factors. The volume of troops/witches/half-giants that Nak could throw at Luir's is simply overwhelming.

And if all else failed, deus ex volcano.

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 01:00:18 AM
Yeah, like I've said in the past, I liked Tuluk and want in back. BUT, I do agree that just a wee bit of support in the north would go a long way.

Apartments in Morin's.
2 Booths for private conversations in morin's tavern.
1 Sponsored Sarge who's allowed to recruit for the Legion, based out of the fort south of the span.
1 Sponsored Northern Templar/Noble who acts as an ambassador to Luir's Outpost, to counteract ambitions of Nakki's to control Luir's.

Just these 4 changes would bring back a LOT of the north/south dynamic that was GOOD, without having to support a huge city state that spread the population too thin. I've heard a lot of complaints just regarding the sheer size of Tuluk. And with a smaller playerbase, that makes sense. But I don't think it's a reason not to support ANY Tuluki's, elsewhere in the game where the population can be more concentrated.

(https://i.imgur.com/EucIfYY.gif)

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 03:27:24 PM
You have gemmed openly running around close to Tuluk. That shit never happened when Tuluk was open.

Yea, it happened before, plenty.

Quote from: roughneck on November 20, 2018, 04:15:03 PM

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 03:27:24 PM
You have gemmed openly running around close to Tuluk. That shit never happened when Tuluk was open.

Yea, it happened before, plenty.

Not without a Legion Unit led by a Jihean Templar going on a witch hunt. When Tuluk was open, sure, people did stupid shit, still. But not without consequence. Which reinforced the fact that it was, indeed, stupid. There is no such reinforcement now. So, those of us who remember those times recognize how stupid it is for gemmed to be riding carefree around the walls of Tuluk. But those who started playing in the last 4-5 years don't.

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with the consequence part. Discovering something witchy in the land around Tuluk was like a top 3 RP hook. Run inside find a Templar or a soldier or something and try to make yourself look loyal AF. Worked every time

I remember that. The kind of paranoia people automatically switched on in their brains was guaranteed, even if the same thing happened two weeks ago with a different witch. You'd be all like, shudder, I'm so glad I'm safe inside the city, or oh shit, I got to leave and go hunt to feed myself.

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 01:00:18 AM
Yeah, like I've said in the past, I liked Tuluk and want in back. BUT, I do agree that just a wee bit of support in the north would go a long way.

Apartments in Morin's.
2 Booths for private conversations in morin's tavern.
1 Sponsored Sarge who's allowed to recruit for the Legion, based out of the fort south of the span.
1 Sponsored Northern Templar/Noble who acts as an ambassador to Luir's Outpost, to counteract ambitions of Nakki's to control Luir's.

Just these 4 changes would bring back a LOT of the north/south dynamic that was GOOD, without having to support a huge city state that spread the population too thin. I've heard a lot of complaints just regarding the sheer size of Tuluk. And with a smaller playerbase, that makes sense. But I don't think it's a reason not to support ANY Tuluki's, elsewhere in the game where the population can be more concentrated.

This would rock, probably. I would love to see this given a test run.

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 06:13:15 PM

Quote from: roughneck on November 20, 2018, 04:15:03 PM

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 03:27:24 PM
You have gemmed openly running around close to Tuluk. That shit never happened when Tuluk was open.

Yea, it happened before, plenty.

Not without a Legion Unit led by a Jihean Templar going on a witch hunt. When Tuluk was open, sure, people did stupid shit, still. But not without consequence. Which reinforced the fact that it was, indeed, stupid. There is no such reinforcement now. So, those of us who remember those times recognize how stupid it is for gemmed to be riding carefree around the walls of Tuluk. But those who started playing in the last 4-5 years don't.

The gates ARE closed now. It makes sense that Tuluki presence in the surrounding lands would be a bit diminished.

Quote from: Nao on November 22, 2018, 09:08:34 AM

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 06:13:15 PM

Quote from: roughneck on November 20, 2018, 04:15:03 PM

Quote from: Heade on November 20, 2018, 03:27:24 PM
You have gemmed openly running around close to Tuluk. That shit never happened when Tuluk was open.

The gates are closed, but Tuluki's still come and go. And they maintain troops all over the region. The only difference is PCs are no longer allowed to play there to present that threat to people. The lowered "threat" in the area is completely caused by OOC, not IC events at all.
Yea, it happened before, plenty.

Not without a Legion Unit led by a Jihean Templar going on a witch hunt. When Tuluk was open, sure, people did stupid shit, still. But not without consequence. Which reinforced the fact that it was, indeed, stupid. There is no such reinforcement now. So, those of us who remember those times recognize how stupid it is for gemmed to be riding carefree around the walls of Tuluk. But those who started playing in the last 4-5 years don't.

The gates ARE closed now. It makes sense that Tuluki presence in the surrounding lands would be a bit diminished.

Quote from: Dresan on November 19, 2018, 11:22:37 PM
To be honest, as someone who loved Tuluk, I wouldn't mind having the place disappear completely, in exchange for apartments at Morins.

Retconning something like Tuluk has been done, and I'm kinda emotionally against it.

Scenario:

Players and staff put a huge amount of effort into X.

Those players and staff trickle away.

New staff comes to power and does not respect the work that the people before them put in, ghosting whatever we're talking about.


For me, it's different if we're talking about overt IC actions (besides volcanomania), but retconning things that have been in the game for 20 years just doesn't seem to respect the work of those who came before and potentially deters new players from attempting to create.

Quote from: Bebop on November 20, 2018, 02:40:07 PM
I honestly think Allanak or Tuluk would come in and crush Luir's before it develops into it's own mini-city state as it has begun to do and I really can't think of any IC reason that isn't in the process of happening.  It's all OOC.

Luir's has been under Naki control before for an extended period of time, and its remote and defensible location, not to mention its new role as the nerve center for GMHs, would greatly deter attacks from city-states.

There is such a lack of vibrancy, momentum and clear opposition in the game without Tuluk and I believe it has had the opposite effect as desired.  I'm still mystified that the idea to close half of the core of the game was thought to be a solution therefore isolating all of the player base that almost exclusively played in Tuluk and a hub for unique clans like the Akei, Poet's Circle and so on.  You can't turn on half of your identity like a couple decades in.  I would love to see what would happen to WoW if they shut down the horde all of a sudden and decided it wasn't "thematic" anymore.

I took a break right before Tuluk closed, and came back recently.

I feel a stark change in dynamic. It's likely not all Tuluk's closure but it just feels to me like.. Nak is just like so over the top now and super condensed. Occasionally a lash comes flying out and it comes off like a cannon of repressed anger.

Only read two pages, so may have been covered, but couldn't wait to reply:

The difference in the noble/commoner relationship.  Walk into the noble bar in Tuluk and forget to nod respectfully to a present noble/templar...meh, maybe someone says something, maybe not, depending on your position of course.

In Nak, my PC was reminded, most firmly, to include "Lord Templar" in every single sentence she spoke...while in the middle of a multi-entry "tell" that already DID include a "Lord Templar" in the second half.

Southron (and yes, I use that word) Templarate/Nobility (in general, there are some that are much more realistically played) are WAY to focused on making sure that everyone knows who they are and scrapes their skull bare on the shit crusted stones of Templar's Way every time they pass.

I said it once or twice and I'll say it again, I love the Levies and hope they come back. I have this theory that staff are going to close Allanak in five or six years and reopen Tuluk. I will so be in the Levies when that happens, and spend my working time mucking clay again.

Tuluk did it right for the last two weeks, but by that time closure was imminent. Was too bad.

If I'm not still banned, I would probably come back to play in Tuluk if only for a time.

I really enjoyed Tuluk, but never really 'got it' according to the long-lived people that were there. The one time I got a Jihaen Templar, all the staff in the Northlands disappeared after hiring me, and I got Nyr who admitted he was never able to oversee during my playtimes.

If there were support, I'd play a Noble role, maybe.

I thought you nailed it with Kieandatu. You were the first kudos I had ever sent. I was a noobie at the time, and I thought the way he played into the role of a warrior monk was fantastic. Fruit juice only? Telling the Kadians he didn't need booze?

I thought you were great. Don't sell yourself so short.

Anyway, I would fucking run back to Tuluk if it reopened. But that's provided we know what happened and there isn't some new, weird precedent and it turns into something resembling Allanak. If Tuluk was half-assed if rereleased, I don't know that I would try.

I mostly liked that I had somewhere else to go after I'd been in Allanak for so long. I like city characters mostly, but I really really don't like seeing a past character's friends and acquaintances, especially knowing that they might recognize my writing style and immediately pick my new PC out.

One of my dudes got the world's lightest lashing for pulling a young Jihaen out of a ... holy fuck I can't remember what they are called.. kryl nest against the Jihaen's orders. However when it came up apparently the standing order about common trash not letting noble blooded folk was an acceptable out. He also got frowned at by Qoriya for maiming rather than killing an elf once.

For a hard rule about "trash cannot even touch His Chosen without penalty of law", there certainly were a lot of Noble players who just wanted to break that rule and make sexy times with the common trash.

Despite having access to licensed and bought pleasure slaves.

Quote from: Riev on April 01, 2019, 11:41:46 AM
For a hard rule about "trash cannot even touch His Chosen without penalty of law", there certainly were a lot of Noble players who just wanted to break that rule and make sexy times with the common trash.

Despite having access to licensed and bought pleasure slaves.

Not that I ever partook myself, but that's soooooooooo completely realistic, and it can be demonstrated innumerable times across history and such a broad range of cultures that I don't understand why you even bring this up.

Quote from: Riev on April 01, 2019, 11:41:46 AM
For a hard rule about "trash cannot even touch His Chosen without penalty of law", there certainly were a lot of Noble players who just wanted to break that rule and make sexy times with the common trash.

Despite having access to licensed and bought pleasure slaves.

Raleris Winrothol deserves better than this.  :'(

I always felt like taboos should be dealt with IC/IG rather than via forced storage. It leads to more plots, intrigue, corruption, betrayal, and eventually murder. How many stories revolve around the Noble who falls in love with a Commoner against his/her better judgements? Some might call it a sappy plot, but in a place like Zalanthas, I can see how the fallout from keeping such secrets would lead to many people's demises.

Quote from: Veselka on April 01, 2019, 07:28:15 PM
I always felt like taboos should be dealt with IC/IG rather than via forced storage. It leads to more plots, intrigue, corruption, betrayal, and eventually murder. How many stories revolve around the Noble who falls in love with a Commoner against his/her better judgements? Some might call it a sappy plot, but in a place like Zalanthas, I can see how the fallout from keeping such secrets would lead to many people's demises.

+1

Its funny I was thinking about Tuluki politics today. I still miss partisanship, being able to more easily get involved .

I do like the brutality of nakkie politics though, always a free aide spot open it seems. Ahaha :)

That has always seemed strange to me: the discardability of aides in Allanak. You would think that repercussions would be more severe, given the life expectancy. No one seems to take the roles because they bear the albatross of being the first in line for an enemy's ire.

Tuluk did very many things well, in my opinion. While forced storage, I will agree, for the things listed above seemed superfluous, I believe most nobles abided by the rules. This led to more plots having to revolve around creativity, drive, and patriotism as opposed to the ... constant pursuit of flesh, dead or alive, that seems to be abundant in Allanak.

Part of me strongly agrees with forced storage in this scenario. The responsibility not to sleep with commoners was explicit before you took the special-app role as a feature of that application.

Consider any other special app role. If a special app'd Sergeant of the AOD never actually trained, led their soldiers, completed their duties, or performed any leadership, they'd be stored. If a Mul, who accepted they couldn't reproduce based on their special app, began power-emoting a pregnancy, they'd (probably) be stored. Roles come with restrictions and when those restrictions are designed to maintain narrative consistency sometimes the enforcement has to be OOC. If you weren't capable of refraining from sexual roleplay with people, then a noble in Tuluk was not the special app for you, and violating a basic agreement of a special app usually, afaik, results in storage.

There's some credence to solving things ICly, but in some cases, doing so comes at the cost of the thematic continuity of things. If every second week in Tuluk we had another 'secret lover' plot getting exposed, it really would have eroded the common/noble societal divide that was supposed to be fundamental there. Sort of hard to take the docs seriously when every single special app Karma role is just dumping on them in an IC way. Sacrificing thematic consistency for 100% of the playerbase so 10% of special app players can have a star-crossed lovers plot seems pretty bleh.

I miss the area, the critters and such.

Playing an outdoor character in Tuluk was much more fun than Allanak.

I also miss the halflings, even though I only had a few interactions with them, they were memorable and cool.

I did not enjoy having to run around with my mind barrier up constantly to not get discovered in my wrongdoings though.

Quote from: boog on April 01, 2019, 10:48:54 PM
That has always seemed strange to me: the discardability of aides in Allanak. You would think that repercussions would be more severe, given the life expectancy. No one seems to take the roles because they bear the albatross of being the first in line for an enemy's ire.

I believe it is a trend that will fix itself. And when it does the game will be much stronger for it. If it doesn't the repercussions should continue to fall on the aides and their nobles, and eventually the houses for allowing themselves to look weak.

My tough and adventuring merchant was too rough and rugged for nobility to even glance at him. Its ironic that the templars, the people with the least need, often do it right in their pursuit of more power. I think there was one aide a long time ago that was a former byner or something, even competed in the arena. He survived until he promoted to elder aide or something.

I am not saying nobility should start trying to woo ex-byners or hunters into those positions. However, at the very least the aide should understand the position they are in, and should be trying to make the right connection in shady spots and be valuable to the people that will ensure they remain safe. I remember as a merchant in luirs, i had a meeting coming up and I asked a mul that was buying from him to do a job for him. All the mul had to do is carry a heavy bag, and basically guard him, staying silent and looking tough during negotiations in the meeting. Wow. A mul guarding my merchant, the meeting went great.

There are nakkie ninja alley elves with no jobs or clans, there are indie hunters, there are people that could potentially get involved who could be pulled from clans if they were offered some sort of opportunity for another type of indie career. Even if its just standing over the aide, keeping an eye out as they sit down with their friends to gossip or working to keep the aide well informed on the actions of their enemies/friends .

But no, half the time nobility seems just so far removed from the rest of allanak, practicing trickle down RP economics, with seemingly isolated RP otherwise and no desire to make allies outside their upper crust, despite the fact that the position comes with so many enemies from day 1. Again maybe this has changed somewhat, but this was my perception of nakkie politics every time I've tried to get involved.

I don't think Tuluki politics were any different, it just took longer for things to climax. I think when Under Tuluk was around as a sort of lawless area, the risk was much more real.

And I agree, Tuluk got many things right, but unfortunately got too many things wrong. Or the players who were in charge of things at times were too heavy-handed and gauche in their approach. When Tuluk was great, it was the place I enjoyed the most to play in. I can't exactly enumerate why. I enjoyed the subtlety, I enjoyed the smile to your face and the dagger behind your back. I enjoyed that it seemed like everyone was your friend, and also secretly plotting with everyone else to see you dead. I enjoyed the bardic traditions, and the attention to poetry (Yes, even the bad poetry). I enjoyed the different Templarate orders, even though they were separated by birth gender, and I enjoyed even more the Templarate when it was unified and there were no Lirathans or Jihaens. I think Tuluk was finally getting to a place where it fit the game world, but unfortunately, it was too little (or too much, really) too late. If it had come to that point in 2006-2008, it may have been a different outcome. But our player base has changed, and aged, and the Staff has also changed its focus away from trying very hard to make Tuluk work. I don't blame them. It was what, a 12 year long experiment? At a certain point in a creative process, you have to admit when things just aren't working, and start over, or move to a project that you know has longevity (Allanak).

Allanak has its moments, and when it does, I enjoy playing the game. When it doesn't, or when I feel I haven't hit my stride in it, or PCs are in positions of power for long periods of time who I know I won't enjoy playing around, I tend to take an extended break. That's the price that is paid by only having one major City to play in, for better, and for worse. At least when it comes to me. Can't speak for others.

I loved how the vast majority of linkdead rangers would be sitting at the bars there and not where I usually play.

How colorful it was. How Tuluk actually thought of stealth/assassins as a full on art/talent. Tuluk and its ways. The badass ways to get shit out of your head. No magickers ANYWHERE besides all the rogue ones you get to kill. Tuluk was the shit, morins blows, my two cents.